Courtesy of the BBC, a portrait of Convicted Estrada’s tranquil jail (hat tip to how now, brownpau? who also deserves a prize for most startling Estrada-related image).
Fr. Joaquin Bernas, SJ in his column, explains what the crime of plunder is, and points out that unless accompanied by conditions, a convict can’t refuse a pardon:
Incidentally, Estrada has already said that he will not accept pardon. It is worth noting, however, that only conditional pardon requires acceptance.
An absolute pardon becomes effective even if not accepted.
Amando Doronila says the Estrada conviction sets the stage for an uneasy Arroyo post-presidency, to put it mildly (bloggers such as Careless Thoughts express similar sentiments). In my column today, Estrada’s ghost army, I do point out that things have reached the point where Estrada’s wrongdoings look like small potatoes compared to the goings-on in the present government (and you only have to look at the ZTE deal, a huge can of worms).
It was also significant, I thought, that even as Estrada faced conviction in court, political leaders were practically falling over themselves to be seen with him, or at least to let everyone (including, most of all, Estrada himself) know they sympathized with the man. In contrast, the President had hunkered down in the Palace with her cabinet, and no one was making a beeline to see and be seen at Fortress Malacanang. This is a pretty galling indication of just who, exactly, the political class thinks will be more relevant come 2010. With relevance comes influence.
Going back to Estrada’s crimes and punishment. In Inquirer Current, I tackled two points of view. To understand the rise and fall of Estrada, and his subsequent (partial) political rehabilitation since then, can be explained by means of a simple axiom: you do not kick a man when he is down. I also discussed something a UP Prof., Prospero de Vera, said on TV yesterday: the Filipino concept of justice is one of restitution and not retribution.
The former presidents of South Korea imprisoned for crimes much more serious than those for which Joseph Estrada was convicted, were imprisoned for only a year before being pardoned. The justification for the pardons goes to the heart of the position I personally held, vis-a-vis the decision to detain Estrada in the first place.
In conversations I had during that time, I remember saying I opposed his being thrown in jail upon the filing of charges. My reasons were simple. I felt that he deserved consideration both as a former president, and because he’d relinquished power without bloodshed. Of course a lot of counter-arguments were made, the rule of law, etc., etc., but I felt that it would be perceived as kicking a man when he’s down, and that a newly-installed government whose legitimacy rested on a pretty unsatisfactory Supreme Court decision, was in a poor position to insist on an inflexible application of legal procedure. It was reckless and imprudent to ferociously apply the law when your legality hasn’t had time to be fully settled.
Had Estrada been left in the comfort of his North Greenhills home, placed, perhaps, under house arrest, then carted to and from the venue of his trial, you wouldn’t have had Edsa Tres. I wish I could locate Fr. Bernas’s column where he pointed out that Estrada’s status as a prisoner was sui generis, and thus couldn’t properly be compared to that of an ordinary felon. His legal argument was made long after the Estrada arrest, if I recall correctly.
In light of what Prof. de Vera said, which I think is very true, and in view of the South Korean experience, it might also be more productive to revisit the law penalizing plunder, and refocus it on enabling the authorities to recover ill-gotten wealth from officials. That satisfies the requirements of justice; it avoids turning erring officials into martyrs; and it addresses a reality we all know: money is power. Conviction, in and of itself, carries great symbolic weight; beyond confiscation of ill-gotten wealth or property, any further punishment for an elected official is gratuitous.
Of course, there are those who’d strongly disagree (the conviction is “one point for the thinking Filipino,” says Blowing My Mind Off). See Erap verdict and our affair with the law by Miriam Coronel Ferrer (who is more inclined for a “rule orientation”) and Guilty! But Special Concessions for Accused Show Flawed System, by Karen Tiongson-Mayrina.
Blogger chizjarkace thinks Estrada’s still exactly in the same position he was before the verdict. Rasheed’s World thinks the conviction has less impact because not only does Chavit Singson remain scott free, but it remains to be seen whether similar high-profile cases can even get off the ground (ricelander expresses similar thoughts; Philippine Experience wonders if those who went after Estrada would go after the President with equal vigor). A good way of seeing how one case can point to a larger injustice is in Exposing a Corrupt Prosecution and Trial in Alabama, in Harper’s Magazine’s blog:
Like tin-horned Central American dictators of old, the Bush crew believes that it can and should use the criminal justice system to take out its political enemies. It does this in a brazen way. And it has no shortage of ostensibly independent helpers to see its schemes along on their merry way. When the story is fully told, the “independent” players will be exposed as not remotely independent. This was an across-the-board systems failure.
This cautionary note (no legal system is immune from the risks of being used for partisan ends) brings up another. Charles Cunningham’s The Residencia in Spanish Colonies explores (with a particular focus on the Philippines) the Spanish colonial institution of the audit of officials as soon as they left office, or embarked to take on a new one. Praiseworthy in its intentions, in practical terms it proved a disaster. As Cunnigham wote, in the conclusion of his paper:
The residencia was essentially a Spanish institution. Its principles were inherited from the Romans. It was adapted through three hundred years to the needs of a vast colonial empire. It cannot be said that it was a success. Its purpose was to deter government officials from abuses rather than to inculcate a sincere desire on their part to fulfill the duties of their offices conscientiously and justly. The necessity for the residencia would have been eliminated by a more careful selection of men for offices. The residencia was the culmination of a period of service in an office which had been purchased, usually, and which was not regarded as an opportunity for service but as a means of yielding the greatest possible profit to its holder. Aside from the obvious defects of such a system, the residencia came too late in the period of service, held as it was at the end of the term. It sought to punish offenders and correct evils rather than to prevent them. This was the most serious fault of the residencia.
Still, going back to my proposal to revisit the plunder law, a system for the public audit and determination of accountability of all public officials, upon the expiration of their terms of office, might be a good option to explore as well.
Interesting observation by james_cartmire, on the Escuderos:
on a different note, i’m sensing the escuderos are positioning themselves to become part of the coalition majority soon. whether it’s in preparation for 2010 or just to gain power favors from malacañang, i don’t know, but they are recently sounding off something intriguingly ‘pro-administration’.
representative salvador escudero (chiz’s father) for one has been vocal on giving pointers to gma that borders political objectivity and classic butt-kissing-in-denial. in one news stroy i read last week (i just can’t recall what story it was exactly), the older escudero was advising gma on what he thinks she ought to do with a rather non-oppositionist tone. and on another occassion, he repeatedly praised health secretary francisco duque during a budget hearing; he commended duque and said that he should really should consider replacing presidential spokesperson ignacio bunye, since he was successfully able to explain the rationale of their budget request, unlike gma’s ‘spokespersons’ who often only make a situation worse for her by not being able to clearly explain and/or coming off as arrogant.
the younger escudero, chiz, on the other hand, has been reportedly working very close with gma’s economic team on pursuing malacañang’s legislative agenda on macroeconomic affairs in the senate (finance secretary margarito teves said so). hmm.. i guess we’ll hear more of the escuderos soon enough.
Latest news is that Jose Ma. Sison is due to be released from detention, but the dissatisfaction of his admirers with those who approved of the arrest will long endure. As we have no names puts it,
I can only look at the context of those blog writers. It did not surprise me one bit when I discover that these writers are also those who support Tuition and Other Fee Increases, the intensified exploitation of foreign corporations of our natural resources, and show a double standard when it comes to the violation of the rights’ of UP students (yes, they get all sanctimonious with the death of Cris Mendez, but show indifference to Karen Empeno and Sherlyn Cadapan, showing that if you’re a Leftist, its ok for them if you get killed). In short, I can only express regret how certain people, under the cloak of “freedom of speech” propagate the most malicious of the Arroyo Regime’s propaganda.
UPDATE: Joma Sison Release from prison an hour ago in Scheveningen. Live photos!
Bankok Pundit wonders how a Thai general can express admiration for Mao Zedong.
Czechews reports residency permits are going to be easier to obtain, because of a shortage of skilled labor. OFWs will most likely explore this option soon enough.
Lighter reading: reason is the reason on funerals. In Fraternam Meam on the debate (reaching the courts) on who invented (ugh!) Karaoke.
Technorati Tags: Blogging, history, ideas, law, media, philippines, politics, president, society
pinoy:tama ka!typical politicians.Ate glue knows that every one in politics has a price!
Objectively speaking,I really think Tita Cory has always been steadfast in her values!I am proud of her!
-Never compromised with her cousin,Boss Danding
-Asked Ate Glue to resign.
-Her son,Noynoy remains with the minority in the Senate.
Joker: Pag bad ka, lagot ka!
Eh pano yan, si GMA ang bad? hehehe.
DevilsAdv8:
At least GMA has been very consistent right from the start:as transactional leader who exploits opportunities.A cheap copy cat of Marcos.
“An maluwas sa nguso, gikan iyan sa puso ”
But Joker was my idol!!!! A revered freedom fighter against Marcos.what happened along the way????
taga,
One very serious effect or symptom of being afflicted with the big “C” – corrption – is moral blindness. Now doesn’t Joker see Gloria as “the best defender of the constitution”. Of course, Gloria doesn’t need anybody to say that to absolutely believe that she really, really is “the best defender of the constitution. Blindness, moral blindness is the effect of corruption. Gloria isn’t bad in Joker’s eyes. Kaya’t hindi lagot si Gloria kay Joker.
continuation of my earlier post:
unless of course you do the patriotic way and help educate or awaken the masa instead of raising the white flag and surrender. shouting here in the bloggesphere will not help either. people here are wide awake already unlike the masa.
Dear JOKER( hope you read this blog)
It pains me to write about you now.In my mind,you belong that revered group of heroes who fought for our freedom during the darkest days of the Dictatorship:Joker Arroyo,Ninoy Aquino,Lorenzo Tanada,Jose w.Diokno,Chino Roces,Napoleon Rama,Jose Burgos of Malaya and othere brave souls!
You clearly do NOT belong to the group of Enrile, Angara,Miriam,Gordon,Lapid and Revilla or the senior apologists like COMMISSIONer Abalos,Gonzales and Apostol.
Quo vadis Joker? Is it too late to change gears now?
ept 28, we will celebrate the birthday of the “Common Man “President,Disodao Macapagal.
Diosdado Macapagal, had long appealed to the electorate as a tao (common man) who never forgot his humble beginnings. “I come from the poor. Let me reap for you the harvest of the poor. Let us break the chain of poverty. Let me lead you to prosperity!” he cried at his campaign whistle stops.
GLORIA:
“I have sat at the sumptuous tables of power, but I have not run away with the silverware. ”
Diosdao Macapagal
Sept 28 is the birth anniversary of the Common Man President
“GRD: how about the young ,idealistic GO senators like Escudero and Cayetano who aligned with the likes of Enrile,Angara,Gordon,Miriam,Lapid,Revilla and Arroyo?Those two little shits make me feel like throwing up too!They gave up their “idealism†for petty ambitions!ay naku…â€Â
taga (you forgot to mention jinggoy), have they? other than supporting villar as the senate’s head (i believe the opposition fuck this off why those four move away, blame it on those others who have too much ambitions in 2010 trying to impose their will on villar), are they now supportive of gma’s policies or became friendly w/ her? last time i follow they are still very much critical of gloria and in the thick of the fight against the wrongdoings of gma’s administration. unlike of course your idol joker (whom i voted also). 🙂
GRD:Jingoy is a hopeless case.I never considered him an “idealistic”person.Erap junior. Villar has always been “Deal or No Deal”
But Cayetano and Escudero are different.They “appeared” idealistic to me.But can you imagine ignoring the will of the electorate to make the Senate a bastion of the opposition and now forming the “Majority bloc” with ENRILE.ANGARA,MIRIAM,GORDON,LAPID and REVILLA.Excuse me,while I puke when I I mention these two young shits!
“I want ordinary people to enjoy a decent standard of living, with ever increasing security, comfort and joy.â€Â
Gloria Macapagal Arroyo
Gloria,where you ever sincere?
GRD:the net effect of the alignment of VILLAR /CAYETANO /ESCUDERO and ERAP Jr. with Administration Senators was to give the KEY chairmanships of Senate Committees to Lady Miriam,Johnny,Ed and Dick.
“rego :
And another coincidence is that the execution has to be carried out at the height of impeachment and Dacer left his home with an envelop carrying documents against Erap.
And that mysterious journalist must be soooooo powerful that we can pin him down. We can only get Aquino and Mancao.”
How can you be so sure that you are right and I am wrong about who killed Dacer? Because what I said is not in the newspaper? There are other ways to know the truth.
“I want to be a good president, help me be a good presidentâ€Â
President Gloria Arroyo
Can we help her please
taga: whatabout the blue ribbon committee? and what about this committee of the whole investigating again the hello garci scandal? the way i see it villar & co were not pressured by admin senators. otherwise, binasura na eto.
GRD:I hope to GOD I am dead wrong about Escudero and Cayetano.We will see.
taga, the only contemporary politicians I idolized were Roco and Robredo. the former is now dead, while the latter is leaving office after his current term.
Cayetano and Escudero. I never harbored illusions they were idealistic, or even incorruptible. Children of dynasts, I epected them to be more TRAPO than their parents.
I voted for them only because they seemed to hate GMA and her family to the core. they passed requirement no. 1 lol.
I want justice to be so pervasive that it will be taken for granted, just as injustice is taken for granted today.
Gloria Macapagal Arroyo
DevilAdvc8:
“Mas nadadakop tulos an putikon kisa pilay”
Naloko tayo ni Escudero at Cayetano.We should have seen the signs..CHIZ is the son of long-time Marcos ally Salvador Escudero.Si Allan is no different from his namesake in KBL.
Taga de cebu: “I have sat at the sumptuous tables of power, but I have not run away with the silverware. †-Diosdao Macapagal
If true, Pres Macapagal forgot to add, â€ÂBut my daughter will run away with the china!†So very a propos, don’t you think?
This blog is too serious;let’s take a break with this very old Cebuano joke:
1st night-Gloria Pidal wears see through dress….Jose Pidal didn’t react…
2nd night, Gloria wears t-back…Jose Pidal still deadma…
3rd night, Gloria Pidal all naked…Jose Pidal said; Unsa na imong gisoot? kunot2x lagi na?
Manila Bay watch:tou·ché
rego,
yan ka naman. sino ba yan robredo at bautista na yan. Presidente ng bloggers pwede.
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Frombelow,
OA ka naman. Example lang po ang dalawang yan sa tipo ng Pangulo na nais kung mahalal after 2010. My main contention is: I want a president after 2010 to be somebody that can stand by himself and indepedent enough from any influence of Erap and Gloria. Claro Amigo?
US ambassador Kristie Kenney on Friday reiterated her call for transparency in Philippine government dealings as the controversy on the National Broadband Network (NBN) contract with ZTE Corp. continues to swirl, ABS-CBN News reported.
What will ate glue do now?
MLQ3: “i participated in efforts that brought together left, right, and middle pro and anti edsa dos groups, to oppose the president. but among the many reasons those efforts failed, was the presence of estrada forces and the left in people power efforts, a reality we have to acknowledge. a significant number couldn’t get past seeing edsa 1, edsa dos, and edsa tres leaders arm-in-arm.â€Â
True, the ‘reds’ turned off and turned away a ‘significant number’ from the rallies. I was concerned about the ‘red factor’ vis-à-vis the ‘silent majority’, worried about the popular movements’ vulnerability to ‘red scare’ propaganda which I had anticipated could be a swing factor for GMA, especially with the military.
There was/is a ‘leadership vacuum’ for the ‘silent majority’, the sector from which we hope a ‘significant number’ would come to build up the critical mass.
Months before the ‘hello garci’ crisis, recognizing the absence of a rallying figure but aware of the need to mobilize the silent majority to move into the political vacuum, I suggested to a couple of leaders from the progressive bloc – center, left of center — to take the lead by presenting a specific political agenda that could galvanize and mobilize the silent majority and emphasized that they distinguish themselves from the left.
Middle-lead mass movements, like Black and White, imho, must evolve by immersing and merging itself with the masses — connecting with masses in their own terms, words, angst and hopes the way Erap did but this time with a vision and a sense of urgency — the survival of thousands of Filipinos are at stake each day GMA stays in power.
Politically, at this point, the challenge remains, who will present a simple viable specific political agenda that can gather support from the silent majority to resolve the lingering crises.
“The same way that Mike Aroyo has been investigated several times and come out clean. And yet hated only the Aroyos and love Erap and Lacson.” Rego.
right on, rego. there’s so much hypocrisy going on in this blog. how can this country go forward if a conclusive finding, beyond reasonable doubt, of heinous plunder committed by a president using his office, could not generate a feeling of outrage against that person among some apparently “reasonable” and educated citizens. the limited understanding of the so-called masa (who are ruled by emotion rather than reason) is understandable. but the continuous effort by people, not proven to be insane, more particularly in the profit-seeking media, to defend and justify the convict really boggles the mind.
btw, the immense plundered wealth that will be recovered will be a real boon to philippine economy. collected and handled properly, think of the number of school houses, textbooks, rural hospitals, micro-financing, and medicine and food for the real needy and disabled, among others, that the money can be put to use.
i agree with mlq3’s restated idea to scrutinize all ill-gotten wealth of each and every public official (their relatives, cronies and dummies), local or national, appointed or elected, including the military, as soon as they leave office, if not sooner during their term. not only will it show that corruption does not pay, it will deter those who seek political office to amass fortunes.
“If a Supreme Court decision is not unanimous, Erap will be acquitted. Must be acquitted. That is the way our Justice works.” DJB.
wrong, djb. Sec.11, rule 56 of the current rules of court states, in relevant part, that: “where the court en banc is equally divided in opinion, or the necessary majority cannot be had, x x x; in appealed cases, the judgment or order appealed from SHALL STAND AFFIRMED.” (underscoring mine).
do you see the clear pattern, rego? these people we are talking about try to water-down the gravity of estrada’s conviction, deflecting it by focusing on the alleged “anomalies” of pgma’s administration. all kinds of appeal to the emotion, e.g., the list of “sins” compiled by djb, etc. which remain to be tested for legal truth; the nauseating repetition of the repudiated charges of gma’s “legitimacy” as president; the idiotic comparison to marcos; the laughable claim that the country is in “danger” every day that gma is president (danger from what?); the use of the cliche “kicking a man who is down”; the wild claim that the sandigan’s decision was a “political act”; the implication that the courts are beholden to gma; the stupid threat to “prosecute” gma after she leaves office in 2010 (prosecute for what?), etc., etc., are all designed to hide and deodorize estrada’s stench of depravity so they can continue lionizing him as a “hero” without thumbing their nose. what a sorry bunch!
Jeg, sa palagay mo tatalab ang dedma sa mga politiko natin?
Bencard,
Wrong. The provision applicable is Section 3 of Rule 125:
SEC. 3. Decision if opinion is equally divided.
– When the Supreme Court en banc is equally divided in opinion or the necessary majority cannot be had on whether to acquit the appellant, the case shall again be deliberated upon and if no decision is reached after re-deliberation, the judgment of conviction of lower court SHALL BE REVERSED AND THE ACCUSED ACQUITTED.
americans are hypocrites!
remember what happened to nixon? how come he was pardoned even before he can be charged in court? and why there was no feeling of outrage amongst the people over his pardon? is that american justice? or was it simply because nixon was a former president the reason for that leniency in the application of the law?
IMHO, estrada being impeached, toppled down and then found guilty of plunder (properties confiscated)has taken enough punishment. the humiliation he and his family has to face for the rest of their lives would be an abomination. this will be forever be marked in the history of the country not even the marcosses has been found guilty of any crime. indeed putting estrada in prison will make him a martyr.
nixon went down in total limbo, a completely broken man, never to recover in spite of a few ultra conservative zealots’ puny attempt to rewrite history. yet, he was not accused of having stolen even a buck from the national treasury, much less convicted of it.
estrada, a martyr? my foot!
jaxius, if that is so, i stand corrected. thanks. still i don’t see a requirement of unanimity, as djb professes.
“IMHO, estrada being impeached, toppled down and then found guilty of plunder (properties confiscated)has taken enough punishment. the humiliation he and his family has to face for the rest of their lives would be an abomination. this will be forever be marked in the history of the country not even the marcosses has been found guilty of any crime. indeed putting estrada in prison will make him a martyr.”
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if that is the case. martyr na rin si Hubert Webb dahil sa katakot takot na humiliation na sinapit ng familya nya. And How about, Jalosjos,. And what about teh ordinary citiznes na lumbag sa batas nakulong at napahiya na rin yung kanilang mga pamilya.
Spat na ba ang kahihiyan ng sinapit ng pamilya ng lumabag na batas bilang kabyaran ng kanilang kaslanan.
Eh kung ganyang ganyan na rin lang eh e di idemolish na natin ang mga presohan. At ang kaparasuhan ng bawat lumabag sa batas eh yung ipahiya na lang ang kani kanilang pamilya….
Samantala, samantala , yung mga pamilya ni Erap eh nag papasasa doon sa 3.2 million Velarde account at nagpapsarap sa magagrangmansion na hindi naman nila pera ang ginsatos pagpagawa.
Oh yes bencard, I see the pattern clearly. Kaya na nahihilo at nalilito ako kung anong klaseng tao ba talaga etong sila DJB, Manolo and the rest. Now I have this huge doubts on the sincerity of their advocacy for good government, better Philipinnes at kun anu ano pang advocacies.
several factors are at work here, and you can ignore them if you wish, but that doesn’t mean the factors aren’t at work.
1. why public opinion, on the whole, agrees estrada was guilty of illegally amassing wealth, but doesn’t view his conviction as a victory of justice, requires explanation. my view is the reason’s pretty simple, which is the popular conception of what would constitute justice doesn’t match what legal professionals and the upper classes thinks is justice.
2. simply as a function of age and being out of power, estrada’s influence is on the wane. if you assume the surveys are right, and that about 30% of the public still holds him in some sort of high regard, of course it also means 70% don’t. but, and here’s the big but: as more people disengage from the political system, and the system itself produces less and not more inspiring leaders, then the fight for power starts resembling what it’s like in america: not something decided by the larger whole, but a battle which is won by committed minorities. in which case, even if the objective truth is 70% of the public considers estrada a has-been, discredited, a convicted felon, etc., in the next election, the 30% that might still take its cues from estrada might actually matter more, than the 70% that don’t look to him for anything.
3. too much water under the bridge has passed to ignore negative impact of the president. she may be feared by most, and admired by a solid minority (the 25% committed to her through thick and thin i’ve been pointing out for years), she will find ways, as every president has, to play a role in the selection of her successor. but the obstacles in her way are serious. one thing we shouldn’t underestimate is the reality that blood debts are now involved, and it doesn’t matter if some won’t acknowledge those debts are hers to pay. after all obviously it’s not her admirers who will try to collect on those debts. aside from those wanting to collect on blood debts, there is a significant chunk who will simply demand tit for tat: whatever estrada went through, his successor will have to go through, in facing charges in court. and whether you won’t see it or not, compared to what estrada was convicted for -receiving tribute from jueteng lords and benefitting from stock market manipulation- the controversial deals of the arroyo years make estrada’s monkey business look like peanuts.
4. perception is everything in politics. how do you measure perception? two ways: surveys or votes. even if you assume both means are tainted these days, it only means the measuring is more imperfect than it should be, but it still gives a general idea of where people stand. neither estrada nor arroyo will be the end-all or be-all of politics in the coming years, but they will have a significant impact.
Thd Erap conviction failed to produce the desired result – closure on the issue of the politics regarding his descent and Gloria’s ascent.
The division between right thinking men i.e. bencard and co. vs. DJB and co has not been healed.
The smell of the verdict either stank like shit or smelled like roses depending on one’s political inclination.
We remain divided as ever. Gettibg rid of Erap didn’t solve anything. Maybe getting rid of Gloria will. Gloria has tried everything to reunite our nation. Maybe stepping down might do it.
There is no question about Estrada guilt as charged and convicted, the issue that most of his supporters and even the ‘intellectuals’ are putting forward was the way it was handled. And also how His Vice President, now the incumbent President, conspired with others, including the Military to overthrow Him outside the Process as provided in the Constitution of the land. That in itself would have thrown out all cases agaist him and the go back to the illegality of the process. And it was established after the Fact that Gloria Arroyo had a hand behind the Conspiracy. As for Gloria, her sins have not seen the court yet, it will come, justice is waiting…
If only Erap behave well while he is the president then Gloria ascencion to power may never happen. Erap may even be president for life.
Personally I believe that whatever headaches we have now all started with Erap abuses while in power….
rego, i think it began earlier. his victory in 1998 wasn’t impossible to prevent. an overwhelming majority (60%) didn’t want him to be president. except that all those opposed to him couldn’t get their act together. personally, i think the problem began in 1992: six years after edsa 1, the old marcos forces almost won. in fact, if you add up the votes of danding cojuangco and imelda in 1992, it would have beaten any of the other candidates hands down. if they’d patched up their differences, they would have reclaimed power; as it was, in 1998 they finally did it.
1. why public opinion, on the whole, agrees estrada was guilty of illegally amassing wealth, but doesn’t view his conviction as a victory of justice, requires explanation. my view is the reason’s pretty simple, which is the popular conception of what would constitute justice doesn’t match what legal professionals and the upper classes thinks is justice.
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I have a different view. This issue has been dragging on for years so public interest has been waning and waning. Eraps conviction or acquital doesn’t impact the lives of majority of teh peopl. It only matters to the drumbeaters of of Erap and those politicans who wanted to use the Erap fanatics for the political gain.
And Manolo, I have a strong perception that you are using Erap to get back at Gloria. You have a very personal issue with Gloria and you are confusing even disguising as public interest.
And DJB? He has a very personal issue with Davide and using Erap to get back at Davide.
OK lang sana yan kung linawin nyo lang na personal issue nyo yan. Ang hindi magan eh yung gawing nyong public issue yung personal issue nyo.
2. simply as a function of age and being out of power, estrada’s influence is on the wane. if you assume the surveys are right, and that about 30% of the public still holds him in some sort of high regard, of course it also means 70% don’t. but, and here’s the big but: as more people disengage from the political system, and the system itself produces less and not more inspiring leaders, then the fight for power starts resembling what it’s like in america: not something decided by the larger whole, but a battle which is won by committed minorities. in which case, even if the objective truth is 70% of the public considers estrada a has-been, discredited, a convicted felon, etc., in the next election, the 30% that might still take its cues from estrada might actually matter more, than the 70% that don’t look to him for anything.
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Eto you pino point out ni Jeg in his reply to CVJ about the about the “pare pareho lang sila” .
Erap is waning and Gloria is becoming irrelevant to more and more poeple. Yet we continue talking politics in terms of Erap and Gloria. Result? More and more people are dis engaging away from the political exercise. Erap and Gloria doesn’t excite people anymore. We need to start talking in term of the future politcal figures or future leaders that should draw public interest. And my suggestion that figure should have no traces of Erap or Gloria. Kasi kung parehong pareho rin wa effect pa rin sa public yan.
rego, please explain to me how the personal can be separated from the political? at the heart of every issue is something you deeply care about, positively or negatively. it is what makes you do something. you will see, for example, that every statement anyone makes about any public official, pro or con, starts with whether they like the official or not. what the basis for that like or dislike can be very mixed: either out of ignorance (nothing more or less, maybe, than the way that person acts or talks) or an understanding of the issues: the positions on issues the official takes, the policies and management style of the official, and how they impact society at large.
you will recall i’ve said often enough that politics is as much about personalities as it is about issues. review my reasons in 05 for deciding to go against the president. they were reached as part of a process unique to my circumstances as someone who’d served and supported her.
3. too much water under the bridge has passed to ignore negative impact of the president. she may be feared by most, and admired by a solid minority (the 25% committed to her through thick and thin i’ve been pointing out for years), she will find ways, as every president has, to play a role in the selection of her successor. but the obstacles in her way are serious. one thing we shouldn’t underestimate is the reality that blood debts are now involved, and it doesn’t matter if some won’t acknowledge those debts are hers to pay. after all obviously it’s not her admirers who will try to collect on those debts. aside from those wanting to collect on blood debts, there is a significant chunk who will simply demand tit for tat: whatever estrada went through, his successor will have to go through, in facing charges in court. and whether you won’t see it or not, compared to what estrada was convicted for -receiving tribute from jueteng lords and benefitting from stock market manipulation- the controversial deals of the arroyo years make estrada’s monkey business look like peanuts.
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And so be it…sabi ko nag kung may dapat habulin kay Gloria after her term eh di habulin . Kung mapaptunayan lahat eh di ikulong. We did it with Erap , there is no reason why we cannot do it with Gloria. But to say that that Estrada’s monkey business look like peanuts is a pure ennuedo or speculation.. In the first place Aroyo Era deals doesn’t always translate to Gloria doing an Erap himself. It could also be that the lower level of corruption may not go all the way up to Gloria. Mik emay have a cut or not. we odnt know. So malalman lang natin eo kung naifile na ang mga chrages sa korte.
Another thing we should also take into considerations of the years of service of Erap and Gloria. Erap stayed for like 2 or 3 years. Can you imagine if he stayed for 10 years like Gloria?
4. perception is everything in politics. how do you measure perception? two ways: surveys or votes. even if you assume both means are tainted these days, it only means the measuring is more imperfect than it should be, but it still gives a general idea of where people stand. neither estrada nor arroyo will be the end-all or be-all of politics in the coming years, but they will have a significant impact.
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But perception is influenced by so many factors. The media has tremendous influence on public perception. They can very well make bad look good and the good look bad.
rego, the flaw i see in your comment is, charges flow out of an assumption: when cases were filed against estrada, people didn’t say, “let us investigate and see maybe, perhaps, who knows, something might be fishy.” they said, “hey, he took x, stole y, looted z.” that’s where the impeachment then the court stepped in, to determine if this was so. so at present, the accusations against the president are at a similar point, except it will certainly take a lot more work, because to be blunt about it, estrada was uniquely crass and obvious about his misdeeds. in a sense that can help explain why estrada was doomed, legally, in 6 years, the marcoses are still fighting it out: fm was, after all, not only a brilliant lawyer but hired brilliant lawyers and didn’t trust local banks.
but baka isipin mo naman na masyado akong antipatiko pagdating sa mga comments mo. honestly it’s people like you, rego, who keep everyone else grounded. and if you weren’t pointing out the need to focus on establishing a new basis for whatever administration comes next, yung mga engaged on one side or another of the present political fence might just ignore the coming challenges until it’s too late. so kelangan talaga i-point out na hindi alpha at omega ng buhay sila gma and jee.
manuelbuencamino :
“Thd Erap conviction failed to produce the desired result” ??
Donno what GMA desires but it wouldn’t be far off from having Erap imprisoned for life. The decision – acquitted for perjury, guilty of plunder — is the perfect combination favoring Gloria.
Is it the desired result you meant desirable and good for the people?
mlq3 :
“several factors are at work here, and you can ignore them if you wish, but that doesn’t mean the factors aren’t at work.”
Would it help if we identify and distinguish malefactors and benevolent-factors? So we can examine which side we’re really on in the equation? How about the core corrutption called social apathy? I think it’s what our national malaise is all about.
Retribution, deterrence and restitution. It is interesting that the culture here looks at the economics first of material benefits when one is the aggrieved in a crime. Amongst the vast majority who are poor when a breadwinner is lost to crime the first thoughts that come out from the survivors is their economic survival. How are they to survive?
More advanced societies went through the necessary evolution of retribution, deterrence and then restitution in establishing their justice system. Public executions and public humiliation were the norm. In tribal societies banishment was the most extreme form of punishment.
King John at Runnymede signed the Magna Carta under duress and this served as the foundation for fiscal policy, representative government and trial by one’s peers for generations later. Cromwell imposed the power of parliament over the king and cut the Kings head off. (Lesson: share power or literally loose your head)
Off course we have the French Revolution where the guillotine was put to work cutting off heads. (mostly of the royals)
Filipinos have been decapitated in Saudi Arabia where it is still the acceptable form of execution.
Common use of property in England was replaced by the Enclosure laws which instituted private use of property by the royals.
Here in the Philippines the concept of property rights in a culture that is still bound by familial traditions of common property that defers to the so called royals. Hence the very weak and almost no appreciation for property rights and the social contract and the concept of “no taxes without representation.” For the few that have taxable income they have no choice but for the vast majority they are not conscious that they pay taxes whether they like it or not.
Hence in the political arena when their champion gets elected they expect to share in the booty. They become part of the extended family and expect to share. The same goes for every political office.
A perfect example is this ZTE deal. Having a name like de Venecia automatically opens doors that are not available to most other people. As for Abalos his special skills at the COMELEC gave him the necessary currency to believe that he could do anything with impunity.
This familial tradition permeates all institutions in the country. Most “colorum” vehicles are operated by relatives of people who work in the institution that is supposed to regulate them. The same goes with Customs. The more successful brokers are those with relatives or classmates that work with customs.
In a recent drinking session with some foreign businessman the thread came out that the reason this country is going no where is the fact that that almost anyone can break the law. The idea of retribution and deterrence is precluded by economic considerations.
You have the semblance of a judicial system but the reality of the social format still makes it akin to ramming a square peg into a round hole.
We are centuries away from deposing a president for lying.
Nixon resigned rather than face the prospect of being tried for obstruction of justice. It would have opened a can of worms.
Bush I pardoned Defense Secretary Casper Wienburger and five others for their role in Iran-Contra. If the charges were to have proceeded their role in the organization of the death squads would have arisen. Once again a bigger can of worms would have opened. Most of those who were to be charged are now in positions of power in America’s War for Americanism. They almost always have high positions in corporations who make most of their daily bread supplying the military industrial complex.
It would be very hard to bring them to trial for plundering the world.
rego’s comments made a lightbulb switch on over my head. in a siege, both the besieged and those laying siege end up drowning in their own filth.
A simple case study of plunder and crony capitalism by legislation in sophisticated America.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/09/14/AR2007091401549.html?hpid=opinionsbox1
hvrds, you have essentially captured the root of the problem. our most cherished values and traditions, are in essence, also our downfall. close family ties, and utang-na-loob, these values, taken to the extreme, practiced without distinguishing between when it is right and when it is wrong to practice them, has led to what you have described. those in power, open the doors for family and friends to break the own law themselves. and even the principled is embattled to refuse friends and families. it takes a truly courageous man “to stand up to friends even as he stand up agst enemies.”
Bencard, you have to exclude me when you say “these people.” I am not one of those who beatify ERAP bec I hate GMA more. I want them both (and all their accomplices) to be jailed. And as you REgo said, the insistence of some to remove GMA by putting back the ERAP loyalists or ERAP himself stinks, and pushes me to disengage from (not only politics) but the whole country itself.
Kung pare-pareho rin lang naman sila, at wala na tayo choice, why choose at all? kung may pera lang ako, di ako na sana tumakbo nang sarili ko (barring the age requirement)