Peace in our time?
August 4, 2008 by mlq3
Filed under Daily Dose
Update: Well, well, well: SC stops MOA signing. Interesting because before the Supremes’ intervention was even reported, Ding Gagelonia was reporting MILF Sets Ancestral Domain Pact Signing on August 25, Not Tomorrow in his blog!
Without any explanation the Moro Islamic Liberation Fron is reporting on its web site, luwaran.com, that the controversial signing of what it says “is considered as the most significant and historic event that ever happened in the annals of the 11-year old GRP-MILF Peace Talks†is being held on August 25 and not tomorrow as earlier announced by Malacanang.
The MILF report goes on to say that “in term (sic) of significance, the MILF views this signing ceremony as at par with the signing of the Tripoli Agreement of 2001 in Tripoli, Libya.â€
“Composing the MILF delegation are: 1) MILF Peace Panel; 2) Secretariat; 3) Technical Committee, whose membership were former members of the MILF Technical Working Group (TWG); 4) Back Staff of the MILF Peace Panel; and 5) representatives of MILF-nominated NGOs.
The group which originally broke away from Nur Misuari’s Moro National Liberation Front also says it has “sent some 50 persons including its peace panel, secretariat, technical committee, and representatives of its nominated non-government organizations (NGOs) to the formal signing ceremony of the memorandum of agreement on ancestral domain (MOA-AD) in Putrajaya, Selangor, Malaysia August 25.â€
This unexplained postponement comes in the face of mounting opposition to the agreement which, although it is being downplayed by Malacanang, is also being challenged in thre Supreme Court and non-Muslim officials, among them Malacanang ally, North Cotabato vice governer Manny Pinol.
***
Last Thursday, my column, An undemocratic decorum , focused on the glitterati who inspired public revulsion during the President’s State of the Nation Address.
But the essential starting point is a remarkable entry in his blog by Jove Francisco, who provided background information on the preparation of the President’s speech, including some points that were dropped at the last minute: and how those preparations belied the Palace’s claims that it had merely shrugged off the devastating survey results released on the eve of the President’s address. The decision to focus on a catalog of achievements was a conscious effort to reclaim public opinion (he also has an intriguing portion on how the Palace may have commissioned its own survey in order to prop up Joseph Estrada as a straw man to help propel Charter Change: it reminds me of this diary entry by Ferdinand Marcos).
He also blogged that the President’s people all assumed a discreet go-ahead for constitutional amendments had been given (former Chief Justice Panganiban in recent columns discussed how such a change is neither constitutionally or legally impossible nor politically insurmountable):
As previously announced by the officials of the Presidential Management Staff, there will be no mention of Charter Change.
But conversations with sources from the political scene confirmed that Chacha may not have been heard in the halls of congress during the SONA, but it sure is being talked about by those concerned, “yun nga lang ay pabulong paâ€.
Secretary Dureza, when I asked him about the President’s Mindanao plan, was evasive but, old pro that he is, immediately countered by saying the Presidential Adviser on the Peace Process would be reporting to the House, but he probably knew by then that the real news would that House panel approves ARMM poll suspension.
Since then, of course, and rapidly (though Reuters reported about it on July 16, see Philippines, Muslim rebels reach deal on homeland), since the story has basically unfolded in about a week, the public has come to realize that it has very little time to grasp the full implications of the President’s comments on Mindanao and the peace deal with the MILF. While we don’t know whether the pros or cons did the leaking, details of the proposed agreement began to be reported over the weekend: Bangsomoro to get own state: Gov’t, MILF to sign ancestral domain pact Tuesday.
Public opinion, this early on, is divided -and even heated. It reminds me of this:
At first hailed as a conquering hero, by the outbreak of World War II, Neville Chamberlain was despised as an appeaser and Appeasement has been our political vocabulary as a negative thing since. In recent decades, though, historians have taken to proposing that what Chamberlain did was buy time, so that Britain could better rearm for the inevitable confrontation with Germany. In our case, the question is whether the public believes a peace deal with the MILF is in the national interest or not. Certain provinces tried to intervene in the Supreme Court, but the government told the Supreme Court the contents of the deal are covered by executive privilege. See SC starts deliberations on appeal vs MOA:
Shortly after the high court started its session, government, through Solicitor General Agnes Devanadera, sent its comment to the petition filed by officials of North Cotabato province, asking the high court to dismiss their appeal for a disclosure of the contents of the MOA, Marquez said.
Marquez said the high court gave the government until 12 noon Monday to submit its document, which arrived shortly after the high court began its deliberations.
By invoking executive privilege, in its 26-page comment, the government said while negotiations with the MILF did not involve any foreign power, there were military and national concerns raised.
“This being so, the entire process, the negotiations involving the said MOA and the drafts, documents thereof resulting from said negotiations is covered by the doctrine of executive privilege, which prevents the disclosure of information that could subvert military or diplomatic objectives,†the solicitor general said.
But then again the draft of the agreement is already available on line. See the full text of the RP-MILF draft pact on Bangsamoro homeland. As for the agreement itself, two entries in Mon Casiple’s blog cover all the controversial bases in the agreement. See MILF decoy for cha-cha and Disturbing BJE questions. As it is, Casiple provides a chart put together by Bong Montesa, part of the government’s negotiating team, and so it’s safe to assume the chart is authoritative, and puts forward the official game plan (in his blog, colleague John Nery thinks the President is not giving out marching orders, but rather, making an appeal):
Now what, exactly, does the game plan cover, in terms of territory? first, let’s begin with this Wikipedia map, which shows the present ARMM in Green:
Then let’s refer to this:
The image above is taken from ABS-CBN’s scan of the draft agreement, and shows the areas proposed for inclusion in the expanded ARMM which would then constitute the Bangsamoro Juridical Entity. You will notice that the areas in black, the areas where the government commits to holding a plebiscite, correspond pretty much, to these 19th Century maps of the old Sultanate of Sulu (from the Perry-Castaneda Library Map Collection)..
There is this German map from 1859, note the demarcation line for Spanish-controlled areas of the Philippines:
Another map from the same year shows the demarcation line more clearly:
Another map this one, which is from an 1892 American encyclopedia map, also retains the basic delineation between areas under direct Spanish control and the territory of the old Sultanate of Sulu (in yellow):
These maps cover a period that, based on one timeline put forward by , circumscribed the authority of the Sultan of Sulu and established the area as a Spanish protectorate:
March.1877 – The Sulu Protocol was signed between Spain, England, and Germany that recognized Spain’s rights over Sulu and, in consideration for the said lease of North Borneo, ended European hostilities in the area
July 22, 1878 – Sultan Jamal ul-Alam signed a treaty with the Spanish Crown making whole of Sulu a protectorate of Spain yet retained her autonomy and the privilege to fly own flag thus saved Jolo from further destruction.
1883 – Manila Spanish government established a customs house in Ciudad de Zamboanga to clear goods coming into the Sultanate of Sulu but, on the insistence of the British, Jolo was declared a free port and trade continued.
After which, of course, took place American efforts, by treaty and conquest, to establish American sovereignty over the Sultanate. That in itself calls for a separate, future entry, as it’s the American conquest of the old Sultanate of Sulu that leads, in turn, to the question of the Republic’s sovereignty over Muslim areas in Mindanao.
But for now, this blog entry in stuart-santiago, asks why should it even be that outright independence for Muslim areas isn’t a widely-acceptable option. To her, it is.
As for myself, my contention today is that The agreement itself is the prize. It does not matter if the whole thing doesn’t take off, what matters to the MILF is getting the government representatives to formally sign the memorandum. The Warrior Lawyer also seems to think so, tooL but says the agreement is a recipe for bloodshed. See a view from Davao in Alleba Politics:
I, among many here Mindanao, have been seeking out for the restoration of peace in the island.
My Muslim friend is optimistic that the agreement can bring peace to Mindanao, but he also fears it might lead to war. For one, he questions the sole representation of the entire Muslim population by MILF.
This MoA, I fear, reeks of insincerity, a strong decisive political move with many repercussions. I do not want to wait and see how it plays out because too many lives have been lost. And in the process, it has all become military and political. What our Muslim brothers want and need, in my opinion, cannot be simply answered by such military and political solutions.
A hawkish response, including a reproduction of Tony Abaya’s column quoting Bobi Tiglao’s visit to the MILF’s base of operations in the 1990s, appears in Tatay Pepes Restobar in General Santos City, Philippines. The announcement by the MILF that the agreement will be signed on August 25, also makes for interesting reading, giving a glimpse of those it considers its enemies.
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Jeg on Mon, 4th Aug 2008 4:40 pm
From what I gather, it seems that the answer as to why outright independence for Muslim Mindanao is not an option is that the northerners think that Mindanao couldnt govern themselves and therefore need the enlightened leadership of their northern brethren (HAH!). I dont know how true that is but it’s easy to surmise that once the northern tribes’ armies withdraw from the south, the MILF will be engaged in an armed power struggle with the MNLF unless they get their acts together and form a secular government wherein the rights of the Christians and others are not only respected, but protected. I think any treaty that would grant self-determination to the south has to insist on this as a prerequisite in some sort of commonwealth transition period before granting independence in 20 years or something. Like the Yanks did to its colony.
The other reason outright independence for Mindanao is not a popular option is because of the northeners’ belief that we have rights to Mindanao’s resources. Everything flows north, while large areas of the south remain poor.
DJB Rizalist on Mon, 4th Aug 2008 6:14 pm
Jess Dureza really is a joke. Him and the US Institute of Peace that has been pushing the whole “Moro homeland” concept as a solution to Mindanao. To me it is completely unworkable and is a deluded attempt to reverse the irredeemable consequences of history. These people are bumping up against the reality of self-determination. Not even the Bangsamoro people want to be a part of their solution, which is really a recipe for unending war and insurgency by making land a perpetual apple of discord.
It’s as silly as some black civil rights radicals who wanted the Negroes to set up a homeland in Alabama or Mississipi.
It’s time for Filipinos to look to the status quo as the real solution! Christians, Muslims, Lumads –as Filipinos– must make democracy work. We have given in to the Constantinoesque fantasy of trying to change history after the fact. It may be ideologically satisfying, but it ignores the reality that has overtaken everybody,
Even if injustices have been done, they have been done in equal measure to all Filipinos. The idea of making the Christians pay for the sins of the colonialists by giving to those who supposedly resisted the Spanish some special right to “private ancestral property” that “never fell into the public domain” — this is just too perverse an idea to be made real.
And to try to make a homeland out of such ancestral domain as a form of expiation for those sins—it’s just the special delusion of Jess Dureza.
Whatever pound of flesh is owed as some kind of historical debt, it is owed to the entire body politic and cannot be collected on behalf of one particular indigenous people without destroying it.
It is time to question the basic premises of how we think peace ought to be achieved in Mindanao.
PSI on Mon, 4th Aug 2008 6:19 pm
Again, the country has been brought to edge.
This is what happens when you put a retired general as your peace negotiator. The adage ‘they know war, that’s why they could talk peace’ does not always apply.
Military men are used to ‘project’ approach in doing things, to attaining a target or objective ASAP. To finishing the enemy once and for all. In the process, historical perspective is lost.
Sometimes, form is more important than substance. In diplomacy, creating delays in negotiations are in themselves substantive matters.
KG on Mon, 4th Aug 2008 6:21 pm
own update:
just happen to be on the same table with one senator during lunch.
he left the hearing asking esperon and Garcia not to assume too much, and what would the plebiscite be about,etc. etc.
senator Gordon continued with his line of questioning.That’s all after that, I ate and ran(and excused myself.)Don’t want too much information.
cvj on Mon, 4th Aug 2008 6:40 pm
Manolo, you previously suggested having the Muslim areas of Mindanao merge with Indonesia in exchange for the Christian areas of Indonesia being incorporated with the Philippines. Are you still in favor of such an arrangement?
mlq3 on Mon, 4th Aug 2008 6:47 pm
cjv, i’m in favor of radical breakthrough proposals, including in a sense, calling the bluff of some separatist groups by stating we’re willing to consider outright independence.
UP n student on Mon, 4th Aug 2008 7:25 pm
Can it really be that this MOA is just “consuelo-de-bobo” and a practically worthless piece of paper? Bernas says :
… the MoA “doesn’t mean anything†until Congress acts on it and a plebiscite is held in the more than 700 villages envisioned for inclusion in the proposed Bangsamoro Juridical Entity (BJE).
“Any change in the ARMM [Autonomous Region in Muslim Mindanao] or [its] territory has to go through Congress and a plebiscite,†. . . . “But legally, there is nothing to it,†he said. “There is nothing to implement. [The negotiating parties] cannot move without Congress.â€
—
Satur Ocampo and a few others should realy start looking at the MOA as a Filipino nation issue. Satur’s statement :
Bert on Mon, 4th Aug 2008 7:28 pm
walk, run, skip, hop, tumble, smile, laugh, cry, anything. do what you want in mindanao. if it’s good for the country.
but, please, don’t do the CHA-CHA. NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO!
MAGKAKASUBUKAN TAYO!
BrianB on Mon, 4th Aug 2008 7:33 pm
GMA wagging the dog (a rabid pitbull this time).
mlq3 on Mon, 4th Aug 2008 7:41 pm
Brikmanship? From Marietta Goco, supposedly this SMS sent by Vice-Gove. Pinol: “My beloved people. 2nite I was told by a top govt official that if our opposition 2b included in d ARMM will result in MILF attacks.d Armed Forces wl not b able 2 help us all out bcos that is d policy of this govt. If this is d case we hav 2defend ourslvs. Let us be brave &stand firm. God is with us. Pls pass & pray.”
UP n student on Mon, 4th Aug 2008 8:03 pm
Inquirer reports : Kabalu said he could not predict the reaction of MILF ground commanders to the court’s decision. . . .
“I cannot say how big or how deep it is, but this is a setback,†Kabalu said in a phone interview. “But we are committed to a peaceful resolution not withstanding the TRO†. . . . Asked how this development would affect the security situation in Mindanao, Kabalu said: “Hindi natin masabing meron, hindi natin masabing wala [We can't say whether or not there will be an effect] . . . . .”
—-
Some times, one gets the impression that there are cases in Pinas (see purported text message from Gov Pinol) where private armies make sense.
cvj on Mon, 4th Aug 2008 9:19 pm
mlq3 (at at 6:47 pm), thanks for the clarification.
Re: (what you said at 7:41 pm), not to diminish the gravity of the situation but to me, the desired impact of Vice-Governor Pinol’s call to arms is mitigated by his use of text message lingo.
manuelbuencamino on Mon, 4th Aug 2008 9:40 pm
No part of the Philippines is for Gloria Arroyo to give away.
UP n student on Mon, 4th Aug 2008 9:52 pm
The MILF, who in prior broadcasts have said they don’t guarantee the actions of their soldiers (but won’t bring them to justice, either) (subject: beheading of Philippine Marines), now says :
DAVAO CITY — The Moro Islamic Liberation Front (MILF) has called on the people of Mindanao to promote trust, understanding, and cooperation and not hatred and mistrust.
This call came after several local chief executives expressed strong opposition to the signing of the memorandum of agreement on ancestral domain (MOA-AD) between the MILF and the National Government.
Muhammad Ameen, chairperson of the MILF secretariat, was reacting to the statement of North Cotabato Vice Governor Emmanuel Piñol over the radio recently, which was said to be “very divisive and full of malice.”
http://www.sunstar.com.ph/static/net/2008/08/04/milf.to.mindanaoans.build.on.trust..html
Flisha on Mon, 4th Aug 2008 9:54 pm
“cjv, i’m in favor of radical breakthrough proposals, including in a sense, calling the bluff of some separatist groups by stating we’re willing to consider outright independence.”
What, and throw the innocents of Mindanao to the wolves? It’s easy to think of signing away Mindanao when you’re not part of Mindanao yourself. Think, for a moment, of the terrified Christians and moderate Muslims who form the larger part of Mindanao than terrorist MILFs. It seems our opinion matters little in this power struggle, yet it is our lives at stake.
UP n student on Mon, 4th Aug 2008 9:58 pm
And as early as July 19/2008, the MILF had responded to requests by Pinol for copies of the Memorandum of Agreement.
July 19, 2008
The Moro Islamic Liberation Front (MILF) has told North Cotabato Vice Governor Emmanuel Piñol to wait for the formal signing of the memorandum of agreement on ancestral domain (MOA-AD) by government and MILF peace negotiators late this month or early next month and he will be given a copy of the document.
“It is a waste of people’s money and effort that you go to the Supreme Court in Manila just to compel the government to divulge the content of the MOA-AD to you. We will give you a copy as soon as it is signed. Just don’t be in haste.â€
. . . .
Musa said the MOA-AD is not a secret document after the
Parties sign it and it will be divulged to the public.
http://www.luwaran.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=790
mlq3 on Mon, 4th Aug 2008 11:10 pm
fisha, you’re welcome to go over every entry in this blog since it started in 2004 and everything iv’e written since 1994, and swee where i ever advocated ignoring the views and interests of mindanao residents.
but in negotiating with muslim filipinos one has to bear in mind the experiences of other countries, where sometimes partition was the only solution the muslims would ever accept. thgat is a possibility it would irresponsible not to consider.
just as we have to take stock and see if our negotiations might succeed better if we see if the other side is bluffing and risk calling their bluff.
all this assumes of course our government in negotiating, represents us, both as an entire nation and also without signing away the future of mindanawons without their being consulted.
UP n student on Mon, 4th Aug 2008 11:51 pm
Here is a technical question on the plebiscite.
Is inclusion-by-plebiscite on a baranggay-by-baranggay basis?
What happens if 60% or more of voters for baranggay-XYZ of Zamboanga-city says “NO” to inclusion, while 54% of all who voted in the plebiscite says “YES”?
“Tyranny of the majority”???
cvj on Mon, 4th Aug 2008 11:59 pm
UPn, i’m curious as to the way you phrased your question. Does it mean that it’s tyranny of the majority only if you don’t like the outcome?
vic on Tue, 5th Aug 2008 12:07 am
Here is what the peace Negotiators on both sides should have done before the Ancestral Domain was expanded or being contemplated..ask them by means of any form of consultation, plebiscite, referendum if they are giving authority to the MILF to negotiate on their behalf, and then a final consultation with all the country’s citizens…
Does anyone have any idea how many political groups interested in controlling the sovereign Bangsa Moro??…now if the goal of the National Government is to shift the fighting between between them, like Palestines, it may have realized that Goal, But at what Price!!!
UP n student on Tue, 5th Aug 2008 12:21 am
cvj: the other tyranny will be when (IF???) the Philippine congress says “NO”. [I'm assuming that Bernas is correct that without an enabling law, any MoA is pffffhhttt useless.]
Now, you lead me to believe, by the way you commented on the way I phrased my question, that you do not know the answer to my question — Is inclusion-by-plebiscite on a baranggay-by-baranggay basis?
PSI on Tue, 5th Aug 2008 12:26 am
Vice Governor Pinol used to be a journalist/reporter under Secretary Dureza in one of the Mindanao newspapers (or radio stations?). Dureza kept pounding: never take a story in its face value. Obtain all the facts and background information.
Now comes this MOA with MILF. Mister Pinol is asking all the right questions.
Talk of the mentee doubting his mentor.
cvj on Tue, 5th Aug 2008 12:38 am
UPn, you’re right on that, i’m not exactly a member of GMA’s inner circle. Maybe Bencard will know better.
cvj on Tue, 5th Aug 2008 12:50 am
At least the COMELEC will help ensure that any Plebiscite will be clean and honest. so as to reflect the will of the Mindanaoans. Oh wait….
anthony scalia on Tue, 5th Aug 2008 12:58 am
Bert,
“but, please, don’t do the CHA-CHA. NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO!”
cha cha yes yes yes yes yes yes yes
“MAGKAKASUBUKAN TAYO!”
tagal
anthony scalia on Tue, 5th Aug 2008 1:05 am
UP n,
“Is inclusion-by-plebiscite on a baranggay-by-baranggay basis?”
depends on the enabling law
UP n student on Tue, 5th Aug 2008 1:13 am
The answer to my question (if NewsBreak Online can be believed) is :
I assume “villages” is the same as “baranggay”.
And to the question — what if the MILF still covets more land-area/baranggays???? does “NO”-now mean “NO”-forever —- the NewsBreak article also says:
The of-course-it-is-Fair!!!! agreement seems to NOT have a process on how a baranggay that gets “included-now” can elect to secede from BJE, say, 4 years later.
cvj on Tue, 5th Aug 2008 1:31 am
From Billy Esposo on the USA’s role:
We’re about to find out whether Esposo’s conjecture has merit.
cvj on Tue, 5th Aug 2008 1:37 am
From Billy Esposo on the USA’s role:
We’re about to find out whether Esposo’s conjecture has merit…
Bert on Tue, 5th Aug 2008 1:37 am
“cha cha yes yes yes yes yes yes yes”-anthony scalia
cvj, ako, hindi na ako naniniwala ngayon na members sila ng GMA inner circle, medyo nakakaduda lang.
mlq3 on Tue, 5th Aug 2008 1:38 am
http://newsbreak.com.ph/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=5186&Itemid=88889051
UP n student on Tue, 5th Aug 2008 1:59 am
cvj: the “Esposo thesis” brings up another question.
What if BangsaMoro leases to China 2,400 hectares of Palawan “ancestral domain territory” in exchange for US$36-million-a-month lease payments plus 40 YW 531 (or WZ523) Armored Personnel Carriers, 300 mortars and 12,800 AK47’s …… does Govt-of-Philippines get 25%?
PSI on Tue, 5th Aug 2008 2:00 am
This guy Billy Esposo is such a Cold Warrior.
The U.S. does not need another base in the area with their Nimitz-class nuclear aircraft carriers. The U.S. Air Force’s new strategy is “Presence not Permanence.”
And another theater of conflict is an overstretch . They’ve got unfinished business in Afghanistan and Iraq. The priority is how to base in Central Asia.
justice league on Tue, 5th Aug 2008 2:24 am
UPN,
I remember the Concom’s recommendation on Federalism in the past ChaCha attempt.
The proposed provision in their Transitory provisions stated
” Section 15-Within one year and after at least sixty percent of the provinces, highly urbanized cities and component cities of the country shall have joined
in the creation of different autonomous territories,
upon petition of majority of such autonomous
territories through their respective regional assemblies, the Parliament shall enact the basic
law for the establishment of a Federal Republic of
the Philippines, whereby the autonomous
territories shall become federal states.”
If one scrutinizes it enough, one would realize that it would take a ridiculously low % to achieve what the proponents wanted.
That is how sneaky some people can get when making the “law”.
BTW just a point to ponder, if it is indeed Barangay by Barangay or village by village; what is going to happen to those that say “NO” but still get landlocked within the BJE?
What province are such going to belong to?
And at any rate I feel American supposed interest in an independent Moro State is still a stone to self’s head scenario.
d0d0ng on Tue, 5th Aug 2008 2:25 am
This is the most brilliant work of President Arroyo to-date. The best defense is offense. Both the co-equal branch of the government are scratching their heads how to deal with the MOA-AD.
At stake is legislature law making power is curb with BJE as it applies to areas under BJE. Congressmen and Senators will be the losers.
On the other hand, Supreme Court will have expanded role on new Bangsamoro court that will adjudicate Bangsamoro people’s rights, property rights, religious and cultural liberties.
The Palace will have the 25% of revenue collections plus the loophole on power sharing if upheld by Supreme Court.
d0d0ng on Tue, 5th Aug 2008 2:39 am
This is the subtlest and most creative plan of state under a state without breaking up the constitution and better upgrade from the ARMM autonomy – with its own military force, BJE court, BJE government, BJE revenue.
PSI on Tue, 5th Aug 2008 2:50 am
Talking of Peace in our Time:
This could well be a Game of the Generals, which the civilan leadership were unknowingly co-opted to play.
Let’s face it , military men are Machiavellian creatures. It could be that a raw deal was prepared by the hawks disguised as peaceniks knowing that it will not be acceptable and lead to another war in Mindanao.
More like War Dance! Again.
supremo on Tue, 5th Aug 2008 3:01 am
‘The of-course-it-is-Fair!!!! agreement seems to NOT have a process on how a baranggay that gets “included-now†can elect to secede from BJE, say, 4 years later.’
That is the problem with the MOA. It only talks about ‘inclusion’ into the BJE. What if a baranggay says NO? Is that final or there will be more plebiscite until that baranggay says YES?
As I said in a previous thread, the solution is NOT to create ONE autonomous region. Abolish all provinces in Mindanao and declare all cities and towns as autonomous communities. If these autonomous communities want to merge later to form a bigger autonomous region then let them do it. Forcing everyone to be under the control of the BJE at the beginning is asking for trouble.
d0d0ng on Tue, 5th Aug 2008 3:01 am
The MOA-AD is superior to Federal form of government because of the following:
1. Majority rule is overcome. Filipino voters outside BJE will not have any voice on BJE.
2. BJE will have fresh revenues without apportioned loans of national government.
3. House and Senate are cut from the law making process.
supremo on Tue, 5th Aug 2008 3:43 am
dOdOng,
What about these?
1. Majority rule is overcome. Inhabitants inside the BJE will not have any voice on BJE.
2. BJE/MILF will have fresh revenues.
3. Inhabitants inside the BJE are cut from the law making process.
grd on Tue, 5th Aug 2008 4:04 am
hi justice,
I think some people’s minds are clouded with so many things. father Bernas have said it. the MoA doesn’t mean anything. it’s not for Gloria to give away lands. any deal has to go through congress. no enabling law and plebiscite, no BJE. this is good for media consumption only.
supremo on Tue, 5th Aug 2008 4:12 am
dOdOng,
‘breaking up the constitution’
You skipped the part of the MOA about AMENDING THE CONSTITUTION.
supremo on Tue, 5th Aug 2008 4:58 am
Bernas says :
… the MoA “doesn’t mean anything†until Congress acts on it and a plebiscite is held in the more than 700 villages envisioned for inclusion in the proposed Bangsamoro Juridical Entity (BJE).
Bernas probably forgot the Tripoli Agreement with the MNLF. That agreement became the basis for succeeding peace negotiations. The MNLF always insisted on it. The Ramos administration was not able to wiggle out of it. The MOA with the MILF will have the same effect on future negotiations. The hands of future administrations will be tied if it is signed.
d0d0ng on Tue, 5th Aug 2008 5:51 am
“The hands of future administrations will be tied if it is signed.”
There you go. Unless the Supreme Court will invalidate the MOA-AD. So far, the President is ahead of the game using her executive privilege to stop any opposition to the MOA-AD.
d0d0ng on Tue, 5th Aug 2008 6:32 am
The momentum right now is with the MOA-AD. The current opposition are holders of regional power in the area who will become losers. However, MILF knew that having 75% of the revenue is too big to pass up for any political warlords in the south. Change of hands is inevitable.
The senate is unfortunately silent on the issue, it does not know where to start in a kind of President’s fog of war. Everybody knew ChaCha is dead with the Senate holding its ranks against it. However with MOA-AD under executive privilege, the Senate is off limit. It is also understood that the rest of regional governments are at huge disadvantage especially at 75% revenue that BJE will enjoy. This will open up new grounds to change the charter for the rest of the country. When that happens in the next 2 years which is highly possible with Palace awash with 12% VAT cash at its disposition, the President will be the beneficiary under a change of term.
leytenian on Tue, 5th Aug 2008 7:22 am
The way I look at it on MOA-AD is to buy time at the moment. A memorandum has to go thru democratic process in line with what we have in our Constitution.
“There is no surrender of territory here. That is why we are providing for a plebiscite, which is consulting the people if we have to put some additional geographic areas into what is now the ARMM,” he told ANC’s Crossroads. “So, there’s no talk here of territory loss or sovereignty loss.”
It’s not yet Final:
“It is a preliminary document, together with the ceasefire arrangements, the rehabilitation and construction provisions, and now the MOA-AD. These are the preliminaries before we go to the formal peace talks,” he said.
No property confiscation:
No lands will be given to the Moslems, TITLES will be respected, licenses will be respected,” he said.
No separate state:
“There is one line which says that it cannot go against the Republic”
Belligerency status:
a status of belligerency, which is a STEP ( like a State or Federalism) closer to granting it international recognition as a separate and independent state. Mindanao peace agreement should be within the boundaries of the present Constitution.
May lead to independence:
the essence of the agreement on ancestral domain is not on the expansion of the Moro homeland but on its concept.
Mercado said the MOA is not just a “symbolic recognition” of the Moro people and state but “a real recognition.”
That entitles the Bangsamoro to a self-declaration [of independence]. Because it’s all there: you’ve been recognized, you have territory, you have self-determination, your ancestral domain is your birthright, it’s not part of the public domain.”
http://www.abs-cbnnews.com/topofthehour.aspx?StoryId=127241
leytenian on Tue, 5th Aug 2008 7:49 am
This is the toughest area and the most challenging location to manage. The rest of Mindanao and the Visayan Islands will not take 18 months but only 6 months to CHACHA. It makes sense to concentrate on BJE.. The concept of Federalism is now being implemented by way of memorandum. The peace process will open investors confident. The bangsamoro people will require lots of time and guidance to be like Davao, Cebu, Bohol and become a city. Why worry? If BJE turns the other way…. you know we have the US to back us up.
If one is worried on “breaking up” then one should advertise : I will buy your land CASH….
I can guarantee , the rest of Bangsamoro who are poor and need cash will probably sell their ANCESTRAL land.
Eminent power domain is considered unjust if such power is not for the reason of doing business with employment to local people.
Give the Ancestral land back to these people. Give them the freedom to sell , to cultivate their own land and to live with it peacefully. Intimidation is not good for peace.
How would you feel if your grandfather’s ancestral land is taken away from you. What would you do? This is not just about Bangsamoro.. this is about legal title.
leytenian on Tue, 5th Aug 2008 8:04 am
If for example: Ka Abu Sayyaf owns 2000 hectares of ancestral land but has not been paying property taxes to the government for over 10 years , then our constitution has room for negotiations. The rule of LAW. . Laws of paying property tax according to its highest and best use.
KG on Tue, 5th Aug 2008 8:06 am
This is what happens when you put a retired general as your peace negotiator. The adage ‘they know war, that’s why they could talk peace’ does not always apply.
Military men are used to ‘project’ approach in doing things, to attaining a target or objective ASAP. To finishing the enemy once and for all. In the process, historical perspective is lost.
Sometimes, form is more important than substance. In diplomacy, creating delays in negotiations are in themselves substantive matters.
.
I have to agree,Did you know that Esperon already displayed his Pert/CPM in the hearing ;me time table na; he placed the cart before the horse sa senate committee,that hearing only stopped when it was learned in the news about the developments in the supreme court.
I watched the evening news and sabi galing daw malaysia si esperon, jet setter pala sya ah Tanghali nandito tapos sa gabi sinabi kadarating lang galing Malaysia.
There were media personnel present but that hearing was not televised.No news about it except the impeacheable stuff na di ko alam kung bakit pa ginawang footnote sa news reporting.
I also attended the hearing on Soldier’scombat pay,importante din ito pero wala namang media kung meron iisa
naglagay ng tape recorder tapos me sticker kung ano channel sabay labas.inaaabangan kasi baka me controversial sa hearing with the peace pannel.
.
justice league on Tue, 5th Aug 2008 8:50 am
Grd,
Hello.
Well Eid Kabalu’s statement makes one wonder how the MILF markets this agreement to their own people who have guns, explosives, etc…
mlq3 on Tue, 5th Aug 2008 9:24 am
grd, fr. bernas was speaking as a lawyer. this is a debate i’ve been having with lawyers recently, over this. one grey area is that the const. provides for the senate to ratify treaties; but since this involves no foreign country, the senate has nothing to approve -though one can argue that with malaysia as the padrino of the agreement, it has the status of a trety (or not!).
but bernas says that the agreement is a mere scrap of paper until congress passes the various enabling alws and constitutes itself into a const. assembly to amend the constitution. the problem is the executive has made a commitment and it heads a ruling coalition in congress that is obedient to the will of the executive. furthermore, regardless of whether anything further happens in congress, the exeutive has acted and committed for the nation, its word is its bond, and the world will take note the government made a commitment and that paper will determine every future talk with muslim groups in the future. in that sense, while perhaps not achieving anything tangible yet, it has already tied the hands of posterity. that is where the law and politics and diplomacy diverge.
mlq3 on Tue, 5th Aug 2008 9:36 am
Here are some things: The published draft of the agreement ( http://newsinfo.inquirer.net/inquirerheadlines/nation/view/20080804-152469/GRP-MILF-draft-pact-on-Bangsamoro-homeland ) has been further revised as per http://newsinfo.inquirer.net/inquirerheadlines/nation/view/20080805-152712/2-key-provisions-in-draft-revised : to wit,
D. Without derogating from the requirements of prior agreements, the Government stipulates to conduct and deliver, using all possible legal measures, within twelve (12) months following the signing of the MOA-AD, a plebiscite covering the areas as enumerated in the list and depicted in the map as Category A attached herein (the “Annexâ€). The Annex constitutes an integral part of this framework agreement. Toward this end, the Parties shall endeavour to complete the negotiating and resolve all outstanding issues on the Comprehensive Compact within fifteen (15) months from the signing of the MOA-AD.
E. The areas covered by Category B are reflected on a map and list attached herein as agreed to by the Parties. Category B (the “Special Intervention Areasâ€) refers to conflict affected areas outside the BJE which shall be the subject of special socio-economic and cultural affirmative action implemented by the Central Government pending the conduct of a plebiscite not earlier than twenty-five (25) years from the signing of the Comprehensive Compact to determine the question of their accession to the BJE. The areas reflected are subject to further negotiations by the Parties. The Annex constitutes an integral part of the framework agreement.
Also, here are Fr. Bernas’ comments:
http://newsinfo.inquirer.net/inquirerheadlines/nation/view/20080805-152659/Its-just-a-piece-of-paperBernas
And here’s a list of plebiscite areas:
http://newsinfo.inquirer.net/inquirerheadlines/nation/view/20080805-152700/Plebiscite-areas
REGION X
LANAO DEL NORTE
Baloi (all)—Abaga, Adapun-Ali (Dariat), Angandog (Bulao), Angayen (Balut), Bangko, Batolacongan (Basagad), Buenavista, Cadayonan, Landa (Gadongan), Lumbac, Mamaanun, Maria-Cristina, Matampay, Nangka, Pacalundo, Poblacion East, Poblacion West, Sandor (Daduan), Sangcad (Cormatan), Sarip-Alawi (Payawan), Sigayan
Munai (all)—Bacayawan, Balabacun, Balintad, Dalama, Kadayonan, Lindongan, Lingco-an, Lininding, Lumba-Bayabao, Madaya, Maganding, Matampay, North Cadulawan, Old Poblacion, Panggao, Pantao, Pantao-A-Munai, Pantaon, Pindolonan, Punong, Ramain, Sandigamunai, Tagoranao, Tambo, Tamparan (Mandaya), Taporog
Nunungan (all)—Abaga, Bangco, Cabasaran (Laya), Canibongan, Dimayon, Inayawan, Kaludan, Karcum, Katubuan, Liangan, Lupitan, Malaig, Mangan, Masibay, Notongan, Panganapan, Pantar, Paridi, Petadun, Poblacion (Nunungan Proper), Rarab, Raraban, Rebucon, Songgod, Taraka
Pantar (all)—Bangcal, Bowi, Bubong Madaya, Cabasaran, Cadayonan, Campong, Dibarosan, Kalanganan East, Kalanganan Lower, Kalilangan, Lumba-Punod, Pantao-Marug, Pantao-Ranao, Pantar East, Pitubo, Poblacion, Poona-Punod, Punod, Sundiga-Punod, Tawanan, West Pantar
Tagoloan (all)—Dalamas, Darimbang, Dimayon, Inagongan, Kiazar (Pob.), Malimbato, Panalawan
Tangcal (all)—Bayabao, Berwar, Big Banisilon, Big Meladoc, Bubong, Lamaosa, Linao, Lindongan, Lingco-an, Papan, Pelingkingan, Poblacion, Poona Kapatagan, Punod, Small Banisilon, Small Meladoc, Somiorang, Tangcal Proper
REGION IX
ZAMBOANGA DEL SUR
Isabela (all)—Aguada, Balatanay, Baluno, Begang, Binuangan, Busay, Cabunbata, Calvario, Carbon, Diki, Dona Ramona T. Alano, Isabela Eastside (Pob.), Isabela Proper (Pob.), Kapatagan Grande, Kapayawan, Kaumpurnah Zone I, Kaumpurnah Zone II, Kaumpurnah Zone III, Kumalarang, La Piedad (Pob.), Lampinigan, Lanote, Lukbuton, Lumbang, Makiri, Maligue (Lunot), Marang-marang, Marketsite (Pob.), Masula, Menzi, Panigayan, Panunsulan, Port Area (Pob.), Riverside, San Rafael, Santa Barbara, Santa Cruz (Pob.), Seaside (Pob.), Small Kapatagan, Sumagdang, Sunrise Village (Pob.), Tablawan, Tabuk (Pob.), Tampalan, Timpul
ZAMBOANGA CITY (Sacol Island)—Busay, Landang Gua, Landang Laum, Manalipa, Pasilmata, Tigtabon
ZAMBOANGA DEL SUR
Dinas—Benuatan, East Migpulao, Lucoban, Nian, Pisa-an, Sambulawan, Songayan, Tarakan
ZAMBOANGA SIBUGAY
Mabuhay—Bangkaw-bangkaw, Caliran, Pamansaan, Taguisan, Tandu-comot
REGION X
LANAO DEL NORTE
Bacolod—Babalayan Townsite, Dimarao, Pagayawan, Punod (Maliwanag)
Iligan City—Digkilaan, Dulag, Hindang, Kalilangan, Lanipao, Mainit, Panoroganan, Rogongon
Kauswagan (all)—Bagumbayan (Pob.), Bara-ason, Cayontor, Delabayan, Inudaran, Kawit Occidental, Kawit Oriental*, Libertad, Poblacion, Tacub, Tingintingin, Tugar
Kolambugan—Bubong,Lumbac,Matampay, Pagalungan, Pantaon, Small Banisilan
Linamon (all)—Busque, Larapan, Magoong, Napo, Poblacion, Purakan, Robocon, Samburon
Magsaysay (all)—Babasalon, Baguiguicon, Daan Campo, Durianon, Ilihan, Lamigadato, Lemoncret, Lubo, Lumbac, Malabaogan, Mapantao, Olango, Pangao, Pelingkingan, Lower Caningag (Perimbangan), Poblacion (Bago-A-Ingud), Rarab, Somiorang, Upper Caningag (Taguitingan), Talambo, Tambacon, Tawinian, Tipaan, Tombador
Maigo—Inoma
Matungao (all)—Bubong Radapan, Bangco, Batal, Batangan, Cadayonan, Matampay, Pangi, Pasayanon, Poblacion (Matungao), Puntod, Santa Cruz, Somiorang
Pantao Ragat (all)—Aloon, Banday, Bobonga Pantao Ragat, Bobonga Radapan, Cabasagan, Calawe, Culubun, Dilimbayan, Dimayon, Poblacion East, Lomidong, Madaya, Maliwanag, Matampay, Natangcopan, Pansor, Pantao Marug, Tangcal, Tongcopan, Poblacion West
Poona Piagapo (all)—Alowin, Bubong-Dinaig, Cabasaran, Cadayonan, Caromatan, Daramba, Dinaig, Kablangan, Linindingan, Lumbatan, Lupitan, Madamba, Madaya, Maliwanag, Nunang, Nunungan, Pantao Raya, Pantaon, Pendolonan, Pened, Piangamangaan, Poblacion (Lumbacaingud), Sulo, Tagoranao, Tangclao, Timbangalan
Salvador (all)—Barandia, Bulacon, Buntong, Calimodan, Camp III, Curva-Miagao, Daligdigan, Inasagan, Kilala, Mabatao, Madaya, Mamaanon, Mapantao, Mindalano, Padianan, Pagalongan, Pagayawan, Panaliwad-on, Pangantapan, Pansor, Patidon, Pawak, Poblacion, Saumay, Sudlon
Sapad (all)—Baning, Buriasan (Pob.), Dansalan, Gamal, Inudaran I, Inudaran II, Karkum, Katipunan, Mabugnao, Maito Salug, Mala Salug, Mama-anon, Mapurog, Pancilan, Panoloon, Pili, Sapad
Sultan Naga Dimaporo (all)—Bangaan, Bangco, Bansarvil II, Bauyan, Cabongbongan, Calibao, Calipapa, Calube, Campo Islam, Capocao, Dabliston, Dalama, Dangulaan, Ditago, Ilian, Kauswagan, Kirapan, Koreo, Lantawan, Mabuhay, Maguindanao, Mahayahay, Mamagum, Mina, Pandanan, Payong, Pikalawag, Pikinit, Piraka, Poblacion, Ramain, Rebucon, Sigayan, Sugod, Tagulo, Tantaon, Topocon (Capocgo)
Tubod—Baris (Lumangculob)
BUKIDNON
Kalilangan—Pamotolan
REGION XII
COTABATO CITY (all)— Bagua, Bagua I, Bagua II, Bagua III, Kalanganan, Kalanganan I, Kalanganan II, Poblacion, Poblacion I, Poblacion II, Poblacion III, Poblacion IV, Poblacion IX, Poblacion V, Poblacion VI, Poblacion VII, Poblacion VIII, Rosary Heights, Rosary Heights I, Rosary Heights II, Rosary Heights III, Rosary Heights IV, Rosary Heights IX, Rosary Heights V, Rosary Heights VI, Rosary Heights VII, Rosary Heights VIII, Rosary Heights X, Rosary Heights XI, Rosary Heights XII, Rosary Heights XIII, Tamontaka, Tamontaka I, Tamontaka II, Tamontaka III, Tamontaka IV, Tamontaka V
COTABATO (North Cotabato)
Alamada—Dado, Guiling, Lower Dado, Macabasa, Mapurok, Pigcawaran
Aleosan—Dunguan, Lower Mingading, Luanan, Malapang, New Panay, Pagangan, Tapodoc
Banisilan—Gastay, Banisilan Poblacion, Busaon, Capayangan, Carugmanan, Kalawaig, Kiaring, Malinao, Miguel Macasarte, Pantar, Paradise, Pinamulaan, Poblacion II, Solama, Thailand, Tinimbacan, Tumbao-Camalig, Wadya
Carmen—Aroman, Cadiis, General Luna, Katanayanan, Kibenes, Kitulaan, Langogan, Lanoon, Lumayong, Macabenban, Manarapan, Manili, Nasapian, Palanggalan, Pebpoloan, Tambad, Tupig
Kabacan (all)—Aringay, Bangilan, Bannawag, Buluan, Cuyapon, Dagupan, Katidtuan, Kayaga, Kilagasan, Magatos, Malamote, Malanduague, Nanga-an, Osias, Paatan Lower, Paatan Upper, Pedtad, Pisan, Poblacion, Salapungan, Sanggadong, Simbuhay, Simone, Tamped
M’lang—Dagong, Dungo-an, Gaunan
Matalam—Arakan, Central Malamote, Ilian, Kidama, Kilada, Manubuan, Marbel, Patadon West, Poblacion, Taguranao, Tamped (Tampad), New Abra
Midsayap—Lomopog, Central Labas, Damatulan, Kadigasan, Kadingilan, Kapinpilan, Kudarangan, Macasendeg, Malingao, Mudseng, Nabalawag, Nes, Olandang, Rangaban, Salunayan, Sambulawan, Tugal, Tumbras, Upper Labas
Pigkawayan—Balacayon, Banucagon, Bulucaon, Buricain, Central Panaten, Datu Binasing, Datu Mantil, Kadingilan, Libungan Torreta, Lower Baguer, Lower Pangangkalan, Malagkit, Matilac, Midpapan II, Patot, Payong-payong, Simsiman, Tubon, Upper Baguer (Baguer), Upper Pangangkalan
Pikit (all)—Bagoaingud (Bagoinged), Balabak, Balatican, Balong, Balungis, Barungis, Batulawan, Bualan, Buliok, Bulod, Bulol, Calawag, Dalingaoen (Lalingaon), Damalasak, Fort Pikit, Ginatilan, Gligli, Gokoton (Gokotan), Inug-ug, Kabasalan, Kalacacan, Katilacan, Kolambog, Ladtingan, Lagunde, Langayen, Macabual, Macasendeg, Manaulanan, Nabundas, Nalapaan, Nunguan, Paidu Pulangi, Panicupan, Poblacion, Punol, Rajah Muda, Silik, Takipan, Talitay, Tinutulan, Pamalian
President Roxas—Salat
Tulunan—Bacong, Daig, Damawato, Dungos, Galidan, Magbok, Popoyon
SULTAN KUDARAT
Bagumbayan (all)—Bai Sarifinang, Biwang, Busok, Chua, Daguma, Daluga, Kabulanan, Kanulay, Kapaya, Kinayao, Masiag, Monteverde, Poblacion, Santo Niño, Sison*, South Sepaka, Sumilil, Titulok, Tuka
Esperanza (all)—Ala, Daladap, Dukay, Guiamalia, Ilian, Kangkong, Margues, New Panay, Numo, Pamantingan, Poblacion, Sagasa, Salabaca, Villamor, Laguinding, Magsaysay, Paitan, Saliao, Salumping
Isulan—Bual, Lagandang, Laguilayan
Kalamansig (all)—Bantogon (Santa Clara), Cadiz, Datu Ito Andong, Datu Wasay, Dumangas Nuevo, Hinalaan, Limulan, Nalilidan, Obial, Pag-asa, Paril, Poblacion, Sabanal, Sangay, Santa Maria
Lambayong (all)—Caridad (Cuyapon), Didtaras, Gansing (Bilumen), Kabulakan, Kapingkong, Katitisan, Lagao, Lilit, Madanding, Maligaya, Mamali, Matlompong, Midtapok, New Cebu, Palumbi, Pidtiguian, Pimbalayan, Pinguiaman, Poblacion (Lambayong), Sadsalan, Seneben, Sigayan, Tambak, Tinumigues, Tumiao (Tinaga), Udtong
Lebak (all)—Barurao, Barurao II, Basak, Bolebok, Bululawan, Capilan, Christiannuevo, Datu Karon, Kalamongog, Keytodac, Kinodalan, New Calinog, Nuling, Pansud, Pasandalan, Poblacion, Poblacion II, Poblacion III, Poloy-poloy, Purikay, Ragandang, Salaman, Salangsang, Taguisa, Tibpuan, Tran, Villamonte
Lutayan (all)—Antong, Bayasong, Blingkong, Lutayan Proper, Maindang, Mamali, Manili, Sampao, Sisiman, Tamnag (Pob.), Palavilla
Palimbang (all)—Akol, Badiangon, Baliango, Balwan (Bulan), Bambanen, Baranayan, Barongis, Batang-baglas, Butril, Colobe, Domolol, Kabuling, Kalibuhan, Kanipaan, Kidayan, Kiponget, Kisek, Kraan, Kulong-kulong, Langali, Libua, Ligao, Lopoken (Lepolon), Lumitan, Maganao, Maguid, Malatuneng (Malatunol), Malisbong, Medol, Milbuk, Mina, Molon, Namat Masla, Napnapon, Poblacion, San Roque, Tibuhol (East Badiangon), Wal, Wasag
President Quirino (all)—Bagumbayan, Bannawag, Bayawa, C. Mangilala, Estrella, Kalanawe I, Kalanawe II, Katico, Malingon, Mangalen, Pedtubo, Poblacion (Sambulawan), Romualdez, San Jose, San Pedro (Tuato), Sinakulay, Suben, Tinaungan, Tual (Liguasan)
Sen. Ninoy Aquino (all)—Banali, Basag, Buenaflores, Bugso, Buklod, Gapok, Kadi, Kapatagan, Kiadsam, Kuden, Kulaman, Lagubang, Langgal, Limuhay, Malegdeg, Midtungok, Nati
Sewod, Tacupis, Tinalon
PALAWAN
Balabac (all)—Agutayan, Bugsuk (New Cagayancillo), Bancalaan, Indalawan, Catagupan, Malaking Ilog, Mangsee, Melville, Pandanan, Pasig, Rabor, Ramos, Salang, Sebaring, Poblacion I, Poblacion II, Poblacion III, Poblacion IV, Poblacion V, Poblacion VI
Bataraza (all)—Bono-bono, Bulalacao, Buliluyan, Culandanum, Igang-igang, Inogbong, Iwahig, Malihud, Malitub, Marangas (Pob.), Ocayan, Puring, Rio Tuba, Sandoval, Sapa, Sarong, Sumbiling, Tabud, Tagnato, Tagolango, Taratak, Tarusan
UP n student on Tue, 5th Aug 2008 10:31 am
I disagree in regards portraying that this MoA has already tied the hands of this President-of-the-Philippines and the future Presidents of Pinas. It sounds dramatic — the exeutive has acted and committed for the nation, its word is its bond — but not true.
Heads of governments renege on promises they have made. And we are talking a Pinas president. It was not that long ago that GMA reneged when she pulled Pinas troops out of Iraq.
UP n student on Tue, 5th Aug 2008 10:50 am
Things change — reneging becomes a lot more difficult — when rules of international law become applicable. Then “IT” can become a Guantanamo where International Law prevents a ruling government from reneging on a treaty.
supremo on Tue, 5th Aug 2008 11:01 am
UP n student,
What about the Tripoli agreement? Only Undersecretary Barbero signed the agreement for the GRP. The terms were tentative but Ramos committed to implementing it in 1996.
supremo on Tue, 5th Aug 2008 11:03 am
UP n student,
What about the Tripoli agreement of 1976? Only Undersecretary Barbero signed the agreement for the GRP. The terms were tentative but Ramos committed to implementing it in 1996.
UP n student on Tue, 5th Aug 2008 11:14 am
There have been times when a head of a government renege on a promise made. And we are talking of a Pinas president re MOA-AD. It was not that long ago that GMA reneged when she pulled Pinas troops out of Iraq.
UP n student on Tue, 5th Aug 2008 11:14 am
There have been times when a head of a government reneged on a promise made. And we are talking of a Pinas president re MOA-AD. It was not that long ago that GMA reneged when she pulled Pinas troops out of Iraq.
cvj on Tue, 5th Aug 2008 12:31 pm
If the United States comes out with a message that ‘hails’ the accord, then that probably means we’ve been sold out.
mlq3 on Tue, 5th Aug 2008 12:43 pm
our government and the MILF seem to exist in parallel universes. The government said it was due to sign the agreement on August 5, the MILF said, even before the SC stepped in, that the signing was scheduled for August 25. The President in her SONA said ancestral domain had been settled the night before her speech, the MILF claims the deal was actually concluded on July 16 -and that the signing scheduled in Kuala Lumpur is actually merely a formality.
http://zamboangajournal.blogspot.com/2008/08/muslim-homeland-is-done-deal-milf-says.html
cvj on Tue, 5th Aug 2008 12:48 pm
mlq3, that’s very bencardian..
mlq3 on Tue, 5th Aug 2008 12:52 pm
Tonyo Cruz provides the full text of the Supreme Court’s TRO:
http://tonyocruz.com/?p=1045
mlq3 on Tue, 5th Aug 2008 1:02 pm
Fr. Eliseo Mercado, long time peace advocate, has this to say:
The main flaws of the otherwise a very good paradigm are basic which could have been addressed easily by government while negotiating with the MILF. The paramount flaw is the absence or utter lack of consultation of stakeholders, including Christian leaders, indigenous peoples in Mindanao, and peace advocates themselves. This flaw contravenes the very essence of any peace process which is participative of the stakeholders. The participative aspect of any process can NOT be overemphasized since this should lead to a regional and national consensus on the peace formula.
The second flaw is the lack of transparency and thus the lack of accountability in the whole process. It is rather very tragic that a good paradigm is now being “torpedoed†on the basis of fundamentals (consultation and transparency) that could have been easily addressed. The same fundamentals are required in the upcoming negotiations on the Comprehensive Compact (or Final Peace Agreement).
The third flaw is the fact that the government negotiating peace with the MILF is at its lowest ebb. The social capital and the credibility of Government are busted. For a peace process to bring to a successful conclusion will require a very high social capital and credibility that this Government sorely lacks. Government has to do a lot of “sellingâ€, “cajoling†and “convincingâ€, especially so when the waters the Parties have navigated in coming up with the MOA are deep and little known. For this very reason, Government should have walked the extra mile in making sure that the stakeholders are on board.
http://blogs.gmanews.tv/jun-mercado/archives/17-MOA-Quo-Vadis.html
mlq3 on Tue, 5th Aug 2008 1:06 pm
upn, but there is a penalty even if they do, and when it happens, there are calculations involved. in the case of iraq, it was that domestic opinion trumped overseas commitments, and that angering uncle sam was worth it considering concessions could be made in mindanao while preserving the primary aim of our foreign policy, keeping the middle eastern nations happy so they don’t put the squeeze on our workers.
come to think of it the predicate could be laid down in this manner to pull out of the moa with the milf, and i suppose it also means the milf never seriously considered it possible for the government to live up to the provisions of the agreement. which brings me back to my original assertion that at least for the milf, the document itself is the prize -so long as the government solemnly signs on to it (which the milf says it did on july 16).
but it is also quite possible the government thinks it can still swing the deal.
KG on Tue, 5th Aug 2008 1:20 pm
tanghali nandito tapos sa gabi sinabi kadarating lang galing Malaysia.
must have been sleepy last night .After reading today’s news kagabi pala sya pumuntang KL hindi galing KL
=========================================
If that TRO becomes one of those temporary permanent things ;what if it really is TEMPORARY
hvrds on Tue, 5th Aug 2008 1:35 pm
Yung nagpapakulo nang settlement sa Mindanao ay ang U.S. Hindi nila alam na ang Hacenderang nasa palasyo ay nag PPR lang para maging pogi sa maga Kano. Baka makalusot ang gusto niya.
Walang walang tiwala ang mag tao kay “Ma’m”
Naghihintay lang ang nasa opsisyon na madulas si “Ma’m”. Naamoy na nila na baka ito na.
This whole mess has obviously been mishandled.
The MILF are riding on the back of the GWOT. They are in the limelight. They know that the Philippine military is incable of a military solution.
The fact is if properly funded and equipped the military could end the problem but who do you hand over the task of reconstruction to after the battle is over. Ang gobeirno mismo ay ang problema.
This is more about economics than religion.
All those glorious promises on the MOA are totally useless.
MLQ3 is right about the MILF. They desperately need some sort of ratification for themselves.
They are not remotely close to the fundamentalists. These guys are sharp and are using this not for an ideology but for economics. Nag ne negosyo yung mga yan.
The Philippines state has let that part of Mindanoao fester for so long.
The issue is simple—- so the fighting stops . what then?????You will build Jollibees all over the place????Thethen the Chinese and Japanese can finish off what ever is left in Mindanao.
The Philippine islands have been left behind by history. The natives still do not know it. By the time they wake up wala nang bansa.
How does one run after history to catch up if you do not where you are?
cvj on Tue, 5th Aug 2008 1:49 pm
Gloria Arroyo’s main talent is her ability to betray her allies and still survive. She has been pushing the envelope in terms of how often she can get away with doing this, but it’s hard to believe that she will not eventually hit a limit.
DJB Rizalist on Tue, 5th Aug 2008 2:30 pm
MLQ3,
No one is seriously considering “outright independence” — Let’s make sure we are all clear on that!
Regarding that reported “postponement” of the signing that should have happened today… I’ve posted this on Ding’s blog:
(there was never any postponement?)
Ding,
I’ve been looking at the posts on Luwaran dot com and it seems you may have misinterpreted a typographical error? Here is the August 4, 2008 post on that website:
“In what is considered as the most significant and historic event that ever happened in the annals of the 11-year old GRP-MILF Peace Talks, the MILF has sent some 50 persons including its peace panel, secretariat, technical committee, and representatives of its nominated non-government organizations (NGOs) to the formal signing ceremony of the memorandum of agreement on ancestral domain (MOA-AD) in Putrajaya, Selangor, Malaysia August 25.”
I think they meant to put August 5 not August 25. The rest of the post doesn’t talk about any “postponement” at all!
rego on Tue, 5th Aug 2008 3:57 pm
cvj :
UPn, you’re right on that, i’m not exactly a member of GMA’s inner circle. Maybe Bencard will know better.
—————————————————————-
Hanggang ngayon ba naman hindi ka parin makalis alis sa mga ganitong innuedo and kaayabangan style of writing? when will you grow up????
frombelow on Tue, 5th Aug 2008 6:10 pm
Has anyone made a research on the number of “group of people with the same cultural. historical, religious heritage” who aspired for self-determination and succeeded?
Armenians, Balkans, Pakistanis Bangladeshis, Americans, Georgians, Shiite Muslims, etc.
The list could be very long. My point is are we just trying to postpone the inevitable .
The moment Muslims in Mindanao demanded self-determination, I always belive that “history is on thier side.”
But it doesnt mean I would love the outcome.
Jeg on Tue, 5th Aug 2008 6:47 pm
But it doesnt mean I would love the outcome.
I would ‘love’ the outcome if they succeed in making their lives better. When the Bosnians fought for independence from Yugoslavia, who were we rooting for? Why were we rooting for them?
This is something that Im trying to find the answer to: Why is it all important that they remain with the north at all costs? I havent really gotten an answer that satisfies. Do we need them? Do they need us? Do we need them more than they need us? DJB I think is putting it in the context of the GWOT. I dont have an opinion on the merits of that line of argument but perhaps you guys can have a go at it.
I would rather we stay whole of course but I wont consider it a terrible tragedy if they split. It’ll be up to the people and not up to whoever is claiming to speak for them. I think their leaders would have to convince their people first that they offer a better alternative to the one in Manila.
cvj on Tue, 5th Aug 2008 7:08 pm
Because they’re Filipinos too?
UP n student on Wed, 6th Aug 2008 12:36 am
to Jeg: I can name 3 instances which will say INSANE those people who want to be in a geographic entity where the rule of the MILF is dominant. The instances include KFR and beheadings. You can pick the third (a choice is children-soldiers).
Now can anyone name 3 instances which will say BRILLIANT those people who want to be in a geographic entity where the rule of the MILF is dominant? Freedom of religion????
UP n student on Wed, 6th Aug 2008 12:50 am
The prime intelligent thing I can see in the MOA-AD is the 75/25 item, which just makes obvious the validity of the statement that Mindanao has been neglected by Malacanang since Cory’s time. The solution is in the 75/25.
For the next 15 to 25 years (at least), that the govt-of-Pinas should commit (with penalties and subject to verification by independent organizations like UN Human rights commission or some respected New York City-based accounting form) to spend 75% of all tax revenue originated from Mindanao solely for the benefit of Mindanao. In the meanwhile, KFR remains illegal and supporters of KFR practitioners are equally guilty and subject to imprisonment. Likewise, actions to intimidate or do harm to Buddhists, atheists, Baptists, Mormons, Aglipays and Hindus because of their religion (or non-religion) remain illegal.
supremo on Wed, 6th Aug 2008 1:15 am
‘Why is it all important that they remain with the north at all costs? ‘
So the Philippines will not become another Yugoslavia.
jakcast on Wed, 6th Aug 2008 1:18 am
Why is it all important that they remain with the north at all costs? – Jeg
Any self-respecting government must exert its all-oout best efforts to preserve and maintain the State’s present community of peoples, territorial integrity and effective control as handed down by our founding fathers and enshrined in the Constitution, history, and the country’s traditions.
This State preservation must be accomplished by the government if the country is to maintain the respect of its own people and the the community of nations.
In the same way that we are not sure of the true desires of the people in Mindanao for self-determination, we don’t know the the real feeling of people in Luzon and Visayas. And that’s where government must err on the side of caution.
As CVJ rightly stated because we are all Filipinos. The people in Luzon and Visayas, as citizens of the Republic, have as much rights in Mindanao as those claiming to have ancestral domain. This reality was forged when the Philippines nation-state was formed. We have to live with conventions of modern statehood.
After all has been said and done, and Mindanao or parts of it still want out of the Republic, then we could part ways for the greater good of the people.
Yes indeed, out of all the elements of a State, its the people who really matter. Not the territory, nor the government, nor effective control.
supremo on Wed, 6th Aug 2008 1:33 am
‘Why is it all important that they remain with the north at all costs? ‘
Sabah claim
supremo on Wed, 6th Aug 2008 1:35 am
Why is it all important that they remain with the north at all costs? ‘
Spratlys
Bert on Wed, 6th Aug 2008 1:35 am
So US ambassador Kenney is on a man-to-man guarding of Esperon in Malaysia making sure that no glitch occur to the signing of this MOA.
Billy Esposo might have a crystal ball after all, hmmmm.
supremo on Wed, 6th Aug 2008 1:38 am
‘Why is it all important that they remain with the north at all costs? ‘
Sulu Sea
Bert on Wed, 6th Aug 2008 2:04 am
If the US is that interested to see the signing of this MOA then it’s safe to say at this stage that it should be considered a done deal notwithstanding any Supreme Court decision.
Hwag lang isama CHA-CHA! Ibang usapan na iyon. ”di ba, anthony?
d0d0ng on Wed, 6th Aug 2008 2:14 am
“I think their leaders would have to convince their people first that they offer a better alternative to the one in Manila.”
Frankly, the Mindanaons don’t need Manila. I came from Mindanao. My distant uncle Ruben Canoy along with Pimentel, Adaza and Misuari proposed a Mindanao state a long time ago. But majority rules, so Mindanao cannot seceede without the approval of Filipinos from other parts of the country. But Misuari proved that you can only negotiate by guns. And so we came to the present time where MILF is using the same formula.
Look at it this way, the Supreme Court TRO on MOA-AD has no effect on the territories controlled by MILF. Manila is powerless to enforce anything. Hence, President Arroyo took the pragmatic approach on power sharing with state under state concept.
d0d0ng on Wed, 6th Aug 2008 2:34 am
“So the Philippines will not become another Yugoslavia”
Of the 36 ranking military officers from Mindanao who were with FBI training recently, all of them believed that there will be no war between Christians and Muslims. The MILF had defined their territories under MOA-AD. Philippine military will not attempt any incursions.
supremo on Wed, 6th Aug 2008 2:55 am
UP n student,
From INQ
Ghadzali Jaafar, MILF vice chair for political affairs, told reporters by phone from his base in Mindanao that the MoA became binding when it was initialed by the two sides on July 27 and Tuesday’s aborted ceremony in Malaysia was merely a formality.
“Our official position is that the agreement on ancestral domain has been signed, so it’s a done deal,†Jaafar said.
UP n student on Wed, 6th Aug 2008 3:39 am
d0d0ng: why would anyone want to live under legal supervision of the MILF? Other than the right to bear arms (AK47’s or M16’s or Berettas), what else? Women’s rights? Freedom of religion?
supremo on Wed, 6th Aug 2008 4:06 am
dOdOng,
‘Manila is powerless to enforce anything’
And the MILF/BJE is powerful? How will the MILF deal with the following?
1)China
2)Filipino refugees in Sabah deported wholesale by Malaysia
3)Islamic fundamentalist
4)Sabah claim
Abe N. Margallo on Wed, 6th Aug 2008 4:20 am
Ghadzali Jaafar, MILF vice chair for political affairs, told reporters by phone from his base in Mindanao that the MoA became binding when it was initialed by the two sides on July 27 and Tuesday’s aborted ceremony in Malaysia was merely a formality.
“Our official position is that the agreement on ancestral domain has been signed, so it’s a done deal,†Jaafar said. – INQ (Italics mine)
During SONA 2008 (Delivered July 28, 2008) GMA said:
“The prime reason is the endless Mindanao conflict. A comprehensive peace has eluded us for half a century. But last night, differences on the tough issue of ancestral domain were resolved. Yes, there are political dynamics among the people of Mindanao. Let us sort them out with the utmost sobriety, patience and restraint. I ask Congress to act on the legislative and political reforms that will lead to a just and lasting peace during our term of office.” (Italics mine)
OK, “done deal.” Now, what?
d0d0ng on Wed, 6th Aug 2008 4:32 am
UPn, the MILF is the military force but the government will be under BJE, a parallel civilian office. Christians will become minority in a predominant Muslim BJE areas but can co exist just as in Malaysia.
Before the arrival of Magellan, Mindanaons are Malays under Muslim rule. Of course, it is difficult now for predominantly Christians to submit under BJE under the expanded territory even with the very lucrative enticement of 75% revenue. Hence, the momentum for the rest of the country to change the charter to get a similar revenue sharing.
UP n student on Wed, 6th Aug 2008 4:41 am
d0d0ng: you did not answer my question, and are you saying that Mindanawans should welcome the MOA-AD with songs and flowers because the MILF-of-beheading plus “board-and-lodging” revenue-generation fame will be the military force? Surigao rejected ARMM, did it not?
d0d0ng on Wed, 6th Aug 2008 4:41 am
Supremo, Manila is powerless to enforce anything in the MILF territories. But given the time to pursue and develop its own ancestral domain, BJE can assert on its own as it was able to demonstrate that its military force, the MILF, is something to reckon with.
d0d0ng on Wed, 6th Aug 2008 4:48 am
UPn, to answer your question predominantly Christians in other parts of Mindanao will not vote for BJE and become part of it. But they welcome the development of BJE so they can go for charter change that will provide similar revenue incentive, which has been the cause of Mindanao Alliance before.
Willy on Wed, 6th Aug 2008 4:54 am
hvrds,
Do you have any solution to the problems the Philippines is currently facing? All you are doing is whining non-stop! Gees!
You’re obviously a die-hard anti-American guy/gal, whatever/whoever you are! Are you one of those Filipinos who applied for a US Visa and was denied? Just wondering? Or perhaps, you’re of those Filipino communists. There are over four million of us Filipino-Americans in the US who love both America and the Philippines. Any quesion, Mr/Ms. Whiner?
supremo on Wed, 6th Aug 2008 4:57 am
dOdOng,
‘Before the arrival of Magellan, Mindanaons are Malays under Muslim rule.’
Don’t forget the Hindu kingdom of Majapahit based in eastern Java from 1293 to around 1500 that ruled over the Sultanate of Sulu?
BrianB on Wed, 6th Aug 2008 5:02 am
Because of GMA, we have become an insecure nation in realpolitik sense.
d0d0ng on Wed, 6th Aug 2008 5:06 am
Supremo, so Mindanaons have been with different influences and have their money go somewhere else like right now going to Manila. MILF/BJE had been saying that is enough of imperial Manila. I’ll just give you 25% instead of taking everything.
Bencard on Wed, 6th Aug 2008 5:24 am
mlq3, re your statement that the executive has “already tied the hands of posterity”, perhaps it bears repeating here that the executive is NOT the government. public officers can only act within the parameters of, and in accordance with, law. an unconstitutional or illegal act of any such officer, including the president, is void and without legal effect.
hvrds on Wed, 6th Aug 2008 6:09 am
“mlq3, re your statement that the executive has “already tied the hands of posterityâ€, perhaps it bears repeating here that the executive is NOT the government. public officers can only act within the parameters of, and in accordance with, law. an unconstitutional or illegal act of any such officer, including the president, is void and without legal effect.”
Great example of reality banging up against the theory on how things are supposed to work.
leytenian on Wed, 6th Aug 2008 6:17 am
Bangsamoro Land for Sale… Cash Only 30% discount for Christians and 50% Discount for Muslims… ouch.
hvrds on Wed, 6th Aug 2008 6:37 am
Beware the rise of the crazies. One of the most important lessons to be learned from the partition of Pakistan and India is this.
Today India has the worlds second largest population of Muslims.
Gandhi proposed that Ali Jinnah lead the new nation that was to be India. To break off based on religion was nuts.
On both sides there were extremists. The signals of the divide at the top filtered down just when the British were lossening control of their grip on the entire sub-continent. Transition in the midst of tensions (economic and political) is dangerous.
The scene was set for a fire to break out based on the religious divide. Rioting and communal warfare broke out.
Just look at the state of the political institutions of the Phils. The top is isolating itself and is governing with checkbook governance.
There are extreme economic pressures on the ground.
The CA is in the midst of a serious question as to its institutional integrity.
Maybe the tiger is growing old and long on the tooth.
There is no way the country will allow GMA to tinker with the constitution on her watch.
But the problem is this. Can the whole thing hold out till 2010.
Be careful of the unintended consequences.
She is not only a lame duck but a seriously wounded lame duck mostly inflicted by herself.
Pilipinoparin on Wed, 6th Aug 2008 6:43 am
“mlq3, re your statement that the executive has “already tied the hands of posterityâ€, perhaps it bears repeating here that the executive is NOT the government. public officers can only act within the parameters of, and in accordance with, law. an unconstitutional or illegal act of any such officer, including the president, is void and without legal effect. ..Ben
“Great example of reality banging up against the theory on how things are supposed to work.”……HVRDS
Thumbs up to that, HVRDS
As I have said several times before, this is the Balkanization of RP. This maybe the long sought “legacy ” of GMA.
BrianB on Wed, 6th Aug 2008 7:03 am
hvrds. It’s ridiculous no matter how you put it.
UP n student on Wed, 6th Aug 2008 7:21 am
I have “listened” to d0d0ng and others, and I still see not a thing as to why a Filipino of Mindanao would want to be a subject of MILF-as-policemen/legal-guardian for BJE. I can see why a hundred or so men (and their alipures) want the power that comes with being big-men of BJE; why would a teen-age girl not related to any BJE-powerbroker want to be there? I can not see why citizens would want to be subject-of-BJE other than either (ONE) Pare-pareho lang ang mga iyan. Or (TWO) kapit-patalim surely anything — even submitting to the gentle kindhearted extra-brave KFR-beheading MILF BJE-policemen — anything is better than this.
Now it makes more sense why the MILF did not allow the insertion of a provision of how a baranggay can get out of the BM-bangsa ng MILF. Once they gotcha… they got yah.
===================
Hey, d0d0ng…. did the thought ever enter your mind to be a balik-sa-bayan-ng-bangsamoro ? Does anyone know anyone who is thinking of going balik-sa-bayan-ng-bangsamoro ?
d0d0ng on Wed, 6th Aug 2008 7:21 am
“Balkanization of RP”.
“One of the most important lessons to be learned from the partition of Pakistan and India”.
The India and Pakistan were separated. BJE is still under Philippines as a country.
d0d0ng on Wed, 6th Aug 2008 7:42 am
“Hey, d0d0ng…. did the thought ever enter your mind to be a balik-sa-bayan-ng-bangsamoro ? Does anyone know anyone who is thinking of going balik-sa-bayan-ng-bangsamoro”.
Say my armed relatives join the BJE and integrated into MILF. I can go balik-sa-bayan-ng-bangsamoro with peace and security.
MILF is always cast as an enemy because they are fighting a war for their aspirations. But if the US ambassador was in Malaysia to witness the signing that showed a different perspective.
justice league on Wed, 6th Aug 2008 8:05 am
Dodong,
“Say my armed relatives join the BJE and integrated into MILF. I can go balik-sa-bayan-ng-bangsamoro with peace and security.”
So you are implying that you have armed relatives already.
And you are implying that you’ll have peace and security when you go balik-sa-bayan-ng-bangsamoro when they integrate to the MILF.
Too bad for those who don’t have such relatives then.
justice league on Wed, 6th Aug 2008 8:05 am
Dodong,
“Say my armed relatives join the BJE and integrated into MILF. I can go balik-sa-bayan-ng-bangsamoro with peace and security.”
So you are implying that you have armed relatives already.
And you are implying that you’ll have peace and security when you go balik-sa-bayan-ng-bangsamoro when they integrate to the MILF.
Too bad for those who don’t have such relatives then.
d0d0ng on Wed, 6th Aug 2008 8:06 am
Forumers especially those living in Luzon are having hard time to grasp how to live along with Muslim Filipinos. My aunt is a doctor married to a white American expat and they both live with Muslim Filipinos in the south for over 40 yrs. The husband said he will be the last American to leave the place because the influential muslims in their place treated both of them with respects.
KG on Wed, 6th Aug 2008 8:10 am
Balkanization of RPâ€.
“One of the most important lessons to be learned from the partition of Pakistan and Indiaâ€.
Bakit kailangan pa ng ibang analogy, why look far than the origin of the term balkanization. The Balkans and of curse Yugoslavia
KG on Wed, 6th Aug 2008 8:12 am
Balkanization of RPâ€.
“One of the most important lessons to be learned from the partition of Pakistan and Indiaâ€.
Bakit kailangan pa ng ibang analogy, why look far than the origin of the term balkanization. The Balkans and of course Yugoslavia
KG on Wed, 6th Aug 2008 8:21 am
So the MILF has learned a lesson or two from the VFA treaty,
They say it is a done deal because it is already initialized.
d0d0ng on Wed, 6th Aug 2008 8:28 am
If the MILF is so bad, why would US ambassador was meeting with MILF officials during the height of Arroyo’s broadband scandal?
Why would US insisted of constructing port in the south that can handle large ocean going vessels, or USAID be used to construct airport that can handle no less than a 747?
The bad things about MILF is too much of hype.
d0d0ng on Wed, 6th Aug 2008 8:34 am
It looks like the Americans knew the MILF more than Filipinos in Luzon knew about their Muslim Filipino brothers. Hehe.
Bencard on Wed, 6th Aug 2008 8:48 am
cut out your homespun pretenses, hrvds, whatever you are. stick to your kakamamie economic nonesense. wadayamin “reality banging up against the theory on how things are supposed to work”?
justice league on Wed, 6th Aug 2008 9:06 am
Dodong,
Do you know the head of the PLO was welcomed in the White House by an American president back then.
Bencard on Wed, 6th Aug 2008 9:08 am
abe margallo, i don’t know ghadzali jaafar other than that he is a leader of the milf. what does he know about the binding effect of contract? who cares what he says?
KG on Wed, 6th Aug 2008 9:10 am
d0dong;
Yes to mutual respect and coexistence .
ganyan sa ibang bansa walang paki alaman.
Dito di pwede walang paki alaman ;kung halimbawa if it is true that one treasure hunter hid a treasure in a cave and it is now shared by many stakeholders, the military ,the police,the local gov and the MILF and keep it secret to everyone except for a few photo ops. would you like it to remain that way ,assuming it is no BS?
leytenian on Wed, 6th Aug 2008 9:23 am
Hi dodong,
I have a question related to the Draft Pact of Bangsamoro Homeland? My understanding is that our government is making an pre-agreement with the GOOD MILF like you, right?
http://newsinfo.inquirer.net/inquirerheadlines/nation/view/20080804-152469/GRP-MILF-draft-pact-on-Bangsamoro-homeland
On Governance:
3. The Parties agree to invite a multinational third-party to observe and monitor the actual implementation of the comprehensive compact which will embody the details for the effective enforcement of this Agreement. The participation of the third-party shall not in any way affect the status of the relationship between the Central Government and the BJE.
what do you mean by third multinational party? I do have my own assessment but I just want to clarify this from you.
9. The Parties further agree to undertake activities which will enhance the capacity of the government institutions during the transition through technical assistance, information-sharing and human resource development.
The key word is Information Sharing…. I also have an idea what this means… Could this be the information on how to locate the BAD MILF ( extremist)..
If I have to review real estate… Does the Bangsamoro land or ancestral land been surveyed and real owners are registered and located?
In my understanding, Ancestral Lands are subject to land Reform and economic Zoning. Economic Zoning includes government own land when ancestral owners couldn’t keep up with payment of property taxes. Are the ancestral owners wanting their land back?
But I do agree with you that BJE is part of Philippines. Like Cebu or Leyte becoming a Federal State. IT’s the same concept except n Bangsamoro , you still have the extremists. Am I right?
leytenian on Wed, 6th Aug 2008 9:28 am
Dodong,
On : Are the ancestral owners wanting their land back?
I mean the owners who have not paid property taxes but instead fighting and killing?
BRIEF HISTORY OF BANGSAMORO STRUGGLE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RYP9UYxlnyc
leytenian on Wed, 6th Aug 2008 9:43 am
I have been browsing Mindanao on its support for Charter Change… I have found Economic Zoning by Jojie Ilagan- Bian. “There are twenty one (21) ecozones in the whole island of Mindanao which is registered at the Philippine Economic Zone Authority (PEZA).”
http://mindanaworld.blogspot.com/2006/03/ecozones-in-mindanao.html
Dodong,
Can you tell me which area and what developments are already in progress within bangsamoro land. Is it part of Jojie’s 21 ecozone
Mindanao has been prepared to ChaCha..
My feeling, it has been implemented and in the process.
UP n student on Wed, 6th Aug 2008 10:14 am
Twenty-euros whereever d0d0ng will be in 2014, it will not be in Mindanao. Even if his wife says “sure, why not????”, d0d0ng will not do a balik-sa-Mindanao…. not to BM–bayan-ng-bangsamoro and not even to non-BJE Surigao.
hvrds on Wed, 6th Aug 2008 10:31 am
The richest man in India today is a Muslim who owns Wipro. The company is engaged in software development.
The last President of India was also a Muslim, a nuclear physicist who developed the nuclear capabilities of India. The Indian government recently approved the U.S. nuclear technology sharing agreement. Why the difference between India and Pakistan. They call it institutions of government.
Meanwhile in Pakistan that was built on theological lines the conceptualizers of 9/11 were Pakistanis. Their nuclear expert was primarily responsible for spreading nuclear technology to Iran, Iraq and Libya. he was most probably aided and abetted by the same inteliggence group that till this day supports the Taliban.
The main safe haven for Al Qaeda is in the tribal areas of Pakistan.
Is there such a rabid theological position in the Balkans????The most rabid theological based struggle that is close to that area is in Chechnya.
The communists led by Tito imposed and created Yugoslavia. He passed and it reverted back to what it was.
The U.S. desperately needs a new type of mercenary fighter to fight this so called existentialist warfare.
They need to make allies of Muslims to fight in this war.
“Despite growing anti-Americanism, U.S. citizenship is still one of the world’s most precious commodities, so there should be no shortage of volunteers. Since proficiency in English would presumably be important for those joining the armed forces, we might focus on South Asia, Anglophone Africa, and parts of Latin America, Europe and East Asia (the Philippines would be a natural recruiting ground) where English is common as a second language. These regions have more than 2 billion people, tens of millions of whom reach military age each year.â€
Creating a U.S. Foreign Legion
http://www.afji.com/2007/03/2552879
d0d0ng on Wed, 6th Aug 2008 10:42 am
“Do you know the head of the PLO was welcomed in the White House by an American president back then?”
“you still have the extremists. Am I right?”
US initiative is to deal with a PLO type rather than it become a Hamas type of insurgency. It will have better traction dealing with MILF and diminish the extremist Abu Sayaf.
hvrds on Wed, 6th Aug 2008 10:56 am
“You’re obviously a die-hard anti-American guy/gal, whatever/whoever you are! Are you one of those Filipinos who applied for a US Visa and was denied? Just wondering? Or perhaps, you’re of those Filipino communists. There are over four million of us Filipino-Americans in the US who love both America and the Philippines. Any quesion, Mr/Ms. Whiner?” A pitiful and desperate attempt at informed punditry.
Objective basis or criterion for truth or reality.
When one defines his reality or ratifies his existence based on having an American green card or having acquired American citizenship, we have to be charitable.
That is the seeming import of the above quote. It is a reminder that when one comes to discuss ideas some are totally oblivious and totally unarmed.
Evolutionary psychology would tend to tell us that we are school-able and trainable just like dogs and chimps. However the self awareness or self evident factor is key and sometimes well……………….
Self ratification must come from within. The Objective criterion for truth comes from that.
Jeg on Wed, 6th Aug 2008 11:33 am
This exercise assumes that the people of Mindanao ratify their autonomy in a plebiscite. Let me just say that Im coming from a position where human life and the right to self-determination is more important than territorial integrity. You can’t force a human to be part of something he doesnt want to be a part of.
“Why is it all important that they remain with the north at all costs?”
Kicker there was the ‘at all costs’ part. So the deaths of thousands on both sides so far is merited because…
cvj: Because theyre Filipinos, too. This is a good reason but somewhat sentimental. But look, who are sending out there to ’subdue’ them? The military, that’s who. Is that something a government does to its citizens? You send soldiers to fight a war against foreign aggression. By sending soldiers, we’re saying in effect, ‘We dont consider you Filipinos.’ ‘Because theyre Filipinos too’ is like the old Yugoslavia saying to the Bosnians, ‘Youre Yugoslavians, too.’
Jakcast: For self-respect. True. If the corpses are kept from the public eye, then it’s easy to be proud of the government’s accomplishments in keeping the territorial integrity of the Philippines and have self-respect. But I wonder how much we’ll be respecting ourselves if we come face-to-face with dead bodies of both Christians and Muslims.
supremo: Sabah, Spratleys, Sulu Sea. If we lose Mindanao, we lose Sabah, but not Spratleys. I asked this question over at the FV site: What rights do Malaysia and the Philippines have over a territory (the Sultanate of Sulu) that pre-existed them both? Benign0’s answer was not about rights but about who possesses it now, that is, which army is there. Nine-tenths of the law and all that. We want Sabah for out own selfish ends and not for the Sultanate of Sulu who should be sovereign over that area if parts of its territory werent occupied by the Philippines and Malaysia. Right now the Sultan finds the status quo — remaining part of Malaysia and the Philippines — acceptable and advantageous, but I think he has a solid claim to making the sultanate an independent territory. As for Spratleys, if an independent Mindanao wants to claim them as well, I’d say take a number.
UPn (He really didnt answer the question, but anyway…): It’s insane because the MILF is insane, in which he alleges that the MILF are engaged in KFR and beheadings. I have nothing to say about those allegations. I suppose UPn still needs to establish that the Abu Sayyaf and the MILF are one and the same. But he does bring up an important issue: Who can they (Mindanaoans) trust? The central government in Manila or someone who says they represent us? Why not a plebiscite to find out?
d0d0ng on Wed, 6th Aug 2008 11:52 am
Leytenian – interpretation of the agreement is best left to MILF which has the greatest stake. The third party provision is for the protection of minority interest of central government due to shift of power. All governance (including land reform,etc) at current form in the MILF areas will be transitioned out to BJE which most probably change everything to pursue their common interest. In short, everything is up in the air following the golden rule, “he who has gold rules”.
cvj on Wed, 6th Aug 2008 12:05 pm
D0d0ng makes a good point on how US foreign policy is done. For example, that’s why the US prefers to deal with authoritarian-moderates like Musharraf to prevent the Taliban-types from gaining the upper hand. However, such policy of dealing with the more moderate factions is ultimately only a delaying tactic as long as the issue of inequality is not resolved. Once you alienate and radicalize enough of the local populace, then even the warlords will be on the run as what has happened in Afghanistan, Somalia and North West Pakistan. That’s why my advocacy since 2005 has been to address the issue of inequality.
cvj on Wed, 6th Aug 2008 12:14 pm
‘Sentimental’ is fine with me because as any nationalist knows, love of country (or at least) is the key to everything else. Isn’t that what the South Korean (and Indian) letter writer(s) has been trying to tell us?
I agree with you on this point. It’s a dangerous Upper and Middle class conceit to send the military (who mostly come from the lower class) to act like bodyguards. We should have a true citizen’s army by mobilizing the general population of abled bodied adults in the event of war.
cvj on Wed, 6th Aug 2008 12:20 pm
[If this becomes a duplicate post, sorry in advance]
‘Sentimental’ is fine with me because as any nationalist knows, love of country (or at least) is the key to everything else. Isn’t that what the South Korean (and Indian) letter writer(s) has been trying to tell us?
I agree with you on this point. It’s a dangerous Upper and Middle class conceit to send the military (who mostly come from the lower class) to act like bodyguards. We should have a true citizen’s army by mobilizing the general population of abled bodied adults in the event of war.
Jeg on Wed, 6th Aug 2008 12:25 pm
‘Sentimental’ is fine with me because as any nationalist knows, love of country (or at least) is the key to everything else.
Youre right. Far be it from me to underestimate the power of intangibles.
UP n student on Wed, 6th Aug 2008 12:27 pm
d0d0ng: you already identified how some of the Mindanao leader-wannabe’s think.
And gun plus KFR results in gold for board-and-lodging kuno.
So you shouldn’t be surprised if some Vice-governors disagree when you say interpretation of the agreement is best left to MILF
supremo on Wed, 6th Aug 2008 12:33 pm
‘Now it makes more sense why the MILF did not allow the insertion of a provision of how a baranggay can get out of the BM-bangsa ng MILF. Once they gotcha… they got yah.’
There is also no provision on what would happen if a baranggay says NO in the plebiscite. Will the MILF leave thenm alone? Will there be a yearly plebiscite for 25 years until they say YES? If I counted it right, this will be the 3rd plebiscite on this issue of Muslim autonomy/homeland. If a girl says no, I believe that means no.
supremo on Wed, 6th Aug 2008 12:40 pm
Ghadzali Jaafar said it’s a done deal. Ermita said no. GMA said yes. Esperon said no. Ano ba talaga?
kris on Wed, 6th Aug 2008 12:40 pm
Bangsamoro now,
Republic of Cebu later. This is one of the development this nation will be totally cut.
Tagalogs, think of it this way. This nation is never existent as fars as it has been. We are composed of different balangays and that balangays are just under the Spanish rule.
Time will come and different ethnic groups will assert their rules. The Cebuanos are starting it.
UP n student on Wed, 6th Aug 2008 1:08 pm
If a girl says no, I believe that means no.
Not to K-F-R practitioners…. in fact, a KFR-victim-who-paid-once is the better target the second time around since already determined there is gold with that victim!!!
===============
In the meanwhile, watch GMA renege as soon as she senses the Filipino citizenry seriously against MOA-AD, seriously enough to want to impeach.
d0d0ng on Wed, 6th Aug 2008 1:09 pm
“So you shouldn’t be surprised if some Vice-governors disagree when you say interpretation of the agreement is best left to MILF.”
MILF are not forcing those who don’t want BJE. But if the majority constituents of the Vice Governor are for BJE, then you can guess what is left for the vice governor.
d0d0ng on Wed, 6th Aug 2008 1:13 pm
“In the meanwhile, watch GMA renege as soon as she senses the Filipino citizenry seriously against MOA-AD, seriously enough to want to impeach.”
Impeachment is out of issue. The house is for charter change. Only the Senate is standing against it.
d0d0ng on Wed, 6th Aug 2008 1:17 pm
“If a girl says no, I believe that means no.”
Doesn’t count until it tilts the majority per area.
hvrds on Wed, 6th Aug 2008 1:38 pm
Unfortunately for Esposo he does not have the logistics to dabble in projections on maintaining empire.
However the legions and the centurions of empire have the modern means to be pro-active in maintaining empire.
Just like in economics, finance and politics preparing for warfare can be done using mathematical modeling (Simulations). The danger as in economic and financial modeling is if empire marks their policies on mathematical based theories.
http://www.motherjones.com/news/featurex/2008/07/dont-know-much-about-history.html
ONA -(Pentagon’s Office of Net Assessment)
“The report’s language is jargon laden and opaque—a lance used by Macedonian horsemen is referred to as a “primary weapon system.” That may be due to the methodology of “net assessment,” a fancy term for the ONA’s approach to analyzing complicated real-world situations that is rooted in systems analysis and game theory. Military author James Dunnigan compares it to engineering. “You take apart historical events, reassemble them as a simulation, and then tinker with the simulation until you can recreate the historical event accurately,” he explains. “What that allows you to do is play out ‘what if?’ situations: What if Napoleon did this? What if Ghengis Khan did that?”
“While the study was produced under the auspices of the ONA, its five authors work for government intelligence contractor Booz Allen Hamilton, and they wrote the study as part of a contract for the Defense Department’s Information Assurance Technology Analysis Center. Booz Allen won a 10-year, $200 million cost-plus contract to establish and “host” that center in 1998. (In May, the Carlyle Group announced it will be taking over Booz Allen’s government services arm.)”
American military is an extension of the business of the business of management and economic efficiencies. McNamara and Gen. Le May were prime actors in carrying out this mindset. The Vietnam war changed that. With the help of Landsdale and Negroponte and the Philippine anti-insurgency models the U.S. military has learned to evolve with the new types of battlefields. Col Napoleon Valeriano was one of the premier advisers and trainors of tthe CIA in preparing for the invasion of Cuba.
The GWOT is another level with the more professional business-military complex of empire.
We do have our favorite American Jihadist Bocobo who is a dogmatic believer in Americanism. He has in some other blogs implied that the left who are engaged in an insurgency here in the Philippines are to be considered enemy combatants. Also included in his analysis are the members of the legal fronts of the left. He contends that all these guys can be legitimate targets of the state for liquidation or capture. The same holds true for the totality of Muslims groups.
This type of discourse in blogs is one thing. He should come out in the mainstream media and declare these ideas just like the guys at Fox news or Rush Limbaugh in the States.
His religion is Americanism. (Still do not get what it is apart from the same old story of empire.)
He cannot stand Constantino who had several pieces that are still being read till today. He should write his ideas on Americanism and see if it will stand the test of time.
He should come out of the blog closet.
How does one debate this existentialist warfare??????
What about the future conflicts over resources??????
TonGuE-tWisTeD on Wed, 6th Aug 2008 3:37 pm
Hashim Salamat parted ways with Nur Misuari when Misuari decided to accept Muslim autonomy in Tripoli. Salamat wanted nothing short of independence then, his MILF still does.
If you still believe they won’t declare one, you’re out of touch with reality. No, this won’t be a Hong Kong- style Administrative region, but let’s hope it won’t be another Sabah.
TonGuE-tWisTeD on Wed, 6th Aug 2008 3:58 pm
boy, that was supposed to be a reply to an 8 a.m. post. What’s with the blogs today? Nakakapagod na magrefresh, wala pa rin yung comments.
cvj on Wed, 6th Aug 2008 4:26 pm
Tongue, i noticed the same thing, sometimes it takes another comment to display a preceding comment which accounts for the duplicate posts.
grd on Wed, 6th Aug 2008 9:29 pm
dodong, which areas from the list given by mlq3 (August 5th, 2008 at 9:36 am) are under milf control?
justice league on Wed, 6th Aug 2008 9:32 pm
Kris,
If you are actually a sympathizer of Cebu; my suggestion to you is to tone it down a bit.
Magellan came to Cebu and he died there. Unfortunately Legazpi later came and subjugated those who defeated Magellan. Sometimes incorporating the defeated into his own mercenary army to wage war elsewhere.
By acts of war or force, people got displaced.
One of these days, someone might recommend to the MILF to include substantial parts of Cebu as their Ancestral Domain as some parts of Cebu were previously held by Muslim chieftains notably the likes of Lapu-Lapu.
What will the Cebuanos be saying then?
grd on Wed, 6th Aug 2008 9:34 pm
really, milf’s not forcing it? you really think majority of Pinol’s constituents would say yes to BJE? is that based on facts or you’re just guessing? your statement is a contradiction to what you earlier wrote: “predominantly Christians in other parts of Mindanao will not vote for BJE and become part of it.â€
anyway, here’s the result of the last plebiscite on those areas:
jakcast on Wed, 6th Aug 2008 9:39 pm
Hope this works this time:
Jeg, government’s self-respect is not the main point. Rather, it is the latter’s absolute duty to preserve the community of peoples, territory, and effective control under the State as handed down from the Philippine charter, history, and traditions.
But you’re right, the at all costs part could be the ‘deal breaker.’
mang_kiko on Wed, 6th Aug 2008 9:41 pm
abe margallo, i don’t know ghadzali jaafar other than that he is a leader of the milf. what does he know about the binding effect of contract? who cares what he says?
Who??Marami, andiyan si madame, kandarapa ibigay halos boung mindanao, an andiyan rin sa Machonorin General Esperon, Peace Negotiator kuno, pero ang toto-o peace mensahero lang po…
UP n student on Wed, 6th Aug 2008 9:58 pm
so far, I am still left with the conclusion that this MOA-AD/BJE thing can be stopped, and GMA will walk away from the BM idea once she concludes that the Filipino citizenry is vehemently against it. It is NOT a done deal, which is why the MILF insists “… tapos na ang boksing, hindi na kayo makaka-atras” as they raise the specter of more village burning and warfare if the Philippine Congress refuses the MILF demands. [Some pacifists will surrender to MILF threats, though.]
Then, there is the bullying by Esperon talking to Pinol :
justice league on Wed, 6th Aug 2008 10:01 pm
Dodong,
So plainly put, the PLO and the MILF aren’t bad after all and the bad things about the MILF and the PLO is too much of hype. (at least in your eyes and probably the Americans)
But how successful was this “deal” between the PLO and the Americans in diminishing the Hamas that you are equating it in that in turn the Americans dealing with the MILF will diminish the Abu Sayyaf?
supremo on Wed, 6th Aug 2008 10:14 pm
There 2 things working against this MOA.
1) The result of the previous 2 plebiscites
2) GMA has this habit of backing out of commitments at the last minute.
justice league on Wed, 6th Aug 2008 10:23 pm
Frombelow,
I took a look at your list
Setting aside the part on the Shiite Muslims; much of what you enumerated are independent countries and no longer exactly associated with just autonomy.
So your idea on self-determination seems to be based on independence.
If that should be the case; you might want to consider an alternate list that includes Texans and the rest of the people of the other 10 American states, Scots, Welsh, Northern Irish, the number of Native American tribes, Kashmiris, Basques, Acehnese, etc….
justice league on Wed, 6th Aug 2008 10:45 pm
Jeg,
Who do you exactly want to be sent to subdue a secessionist group who are at times better armed than the Philippine National Police?
justice league on Wed, 6th Aug 2008 10:58 pm
Bencard,
You are obviously approaching the ghadzali jaafar angle from practically only a legal standpoint.
A lot will depend on how the MILF markets/marketed the MOA to their armed followers.
Those under him are likely to know NO better than what he does or what he says.
If he says to his followers that this agreement is binding and the government doesn’t fulfill its part; how will it look to his followers?
mlp on Wed, 6th Aug 2008 11:23 pm
No matter how we burn the blogsphere or make dakdak, the reality is our military and the executive is afraid of the milf, hence the concession. That is the bottomline. If our military is afraid to fight then we get the MOA-AD that we deserve. Now if anybody objects to that they better go to Mindanao and fight the MILF. The reason why so many of us are sore because we know the MOA is not fair and equitable to the stakeholders. If the government has the moral ascendancy and popularity it is easy to secure the committment of the people for a sustained fighting. The only way to fight secession is good governance and economic development which the present government lacks.The only reason why the milf and the npa survive and enjoy aresurgence are during those bad governance period.
WAN tester on Thu, 7th Aug 2008 12:05 am
mlp: Actually, the MILF made serious concessions.
About this time last year, the MILF was asking for full independence. They also wanted Malaysia to grant permanent residency status to Mindanawans (as long as these Mindanawans swear to being banigsamoro). The MILF wanted 100%; Malacanang wanted 50/50, so they settled on 75/25 . The MILF wanted all 
of Palawan, all of Cebu 
(plus two baranggays in Quiapo and 9 baranggays in Leyte).
And they wanted University of Philippines to grant 100% scholarship for two hundred of their students each year (and another 50 to deLaSalle; another 50 to FEU).
cvj on Thu, 7th Aug 2008 12:08 am
Looks like the MILF does not think much of Ateneo.
supremo on Thu, 7th Aug 2008 12:13 am
The MILF forgot Greenhills.
supremo on Thu, 7th Aug 2008 12:14 am
The MILF forgot Greenhills
cvj on Thu, 7th Aug 2008 12:19 am
Sa Greenhills Shopping Center ang Embassy. Problema nga lang, from time to time, nasusunog.
justice league on Thu, 7th Aug 2008 12:23 am
Mlp,
I can’t say if the Trillanes group has a role in this but there seems to be a perceived big difference between the miltary under ex-Pres. Estrada (the several months before he got ousted) and the one under PGMA.
justice league on Thu, 7th Aug 2008 12:26 am
Mlp,
Revised.
I can’t say if the Trillanes group has a role in this but there seems to be a perceived big difference between the miltary under ex-Pres. Estrada (the several months before he got ousted/resigned) and the one under PGMA.
Pilipinoparin on Thu, 7th Aug 2008 12:29 am
Actually they were delighted because of TRO. Now, they will have time to revise the MOA. They forgot to include Mactan, the stronghold of Lapulapu and Boracay the favorite island for an R&R prior to Legaspi’s arrival in Cebu. I hope they forget Lakandula’s territory ( GMA will fight tooth and nail for this).
justice league on Thu, 7th Aug 2008 12:32 am
Kris,
I guess its too late now.
Bencard on Thu, 7th Aug 2008 12:36 am
justice league, jaafar’s co-rebels in the milf will need no convincing from him. whatever he is saying is superfluity. the bellicose bangsamoro only has one and only one casus belli if they don’t get what they want, moa or no moa. and that is, its dubious “ancestral domain” claim. whether or not the executive branch of the government made a non-legally binding commitment for being incomplete, its ultimate rejection by the rest of the empowered entities will, unless the bangsamoro gets cold feet, lead to a bloody resumption of the armed rebellion. i just hope that we, as a people, are up to it.
d0d0ng on Thu, 7th Aug 2008 12:37 am
“dodong, which areas from the list given by mlq3 (August 5th, 2008 at 9:36 am) are under milf control?”
grd – General Esperon made it simple when he told Vice Governor Pinol point blank that AFP will not defend you.
MLQ’s list contains the 712 baranggays in 5 provinces to be added to the existing 6 provinces under BJE control. The military presence are in the camps surrounded by MILFs. The soldiers are like sitting ducks. So the general is speaking from pragmatic point of view.
DevilsAdvc8 on Thu, 7th Aug 2008 12:38 am
i didn’t know you had such a terrific sense of humor hvrds. lol. nice one.
i think i had a rather long story about how the philippines would go on starting from when my prediction comes true.
i believe cvj, with his amazing memory, be able to locate that post and put up the link here.
it’s only now that i’m realizing it. but our country really is fit only to become small states ruled by warlords.
when nationhood disintegrates, and the national coffers break up, that IRA every LGU slobbers for will be gone. and then, what will you have but every warlord-ruled state be forced to earn its keep?
that or do what ancient armies did before.
conquer and enslave others.
Pilipinoparin on Thu, 7th Aug 2008 12:55 am
“Defensor said the MOA also violated the “inherent†powers of Congress when the legislature was not consulted on the agreement.”…….Inquirer
I think case is not very different from other previous agreements, kinda like “RP-Japan” thingy. They might be able to get away with this, again and again and again, until when?
justice league on Thu, 7th Aug 2008 12:56 am
Bencard,
Most likely you are right. But then portraying the enemy in such negative light would be such a propaganda coup for the MILF, would it not?
d0d0ng on Thu, 7th Aug 2008 1:02 am
“really, milf’s not forcing it? you really think majority of Pinol’s constituents would say yes to BJE? is that based on facts or you’re just guessing?”
The last plebiscite is only good as it was. Anything can change. Readers are too confined with the draft. But MILF has the take even for area like Zamboanga City which is overwhelmingly Christians-Chabacanos (descendants of Spaniards) and protected by SouthCom. Datu Kinoc serving in the MILF TWG told Subanens of Zamboanga that Zamboanga Peninsula is owned by Moros which is the heart of Ancestral Domain proviso.
cvj on Thu, 7th Aug 2008 1:18 am
Manolo, i just read your PDI column, you outdid yourself this time.
PSI on Thu, 7th Aug 2008 1:21 am
While Malacanang and the senators are again splitting hairs on the high politics (i.e. treason, impeachment, etc.), I believe the battle is being won by the messengers in the ground.
The MILF spokesman Eid Kabalu seems to be scoring points with both Bangsa Moro people and Luzon and Visayas audiences, getting coverage from the major radio stations every morning at prime time.
Also Cotabato Vice Governor Pinol who now seems to have morphed to be the spokesman of the anti-MOA is being heard every day.
The national leadership should take heed. There could be no comebacks this time.
cvj on Thu, 7th Aug 2008 1:23 am
Devils, here’s your civil war scenario. You sounded more upbeat at that time.
supremo on Thu, 7th Aug 2008 1:25 am
dOdOng,
‘The last plebiscite is only good as it was. ‘
You mean they will fight again when they lose in the next plebiscite?
‘Readers are too confined with the draft.’
Jaafar said it’s a done deal. Na-initialized na raw ang draft. Ano pa ang hihintayin ng readers?
justice league on Thu, 7th Aug 2008 1:29 am
Dodong,
If the last plebiscite is only good as it was and anything can change; why does it appear that the Municipalities of Lanao Del Norte will be immediately taken away and incorporated into the ARMM without the benefit of a new plebiscite?
grd on Thu, 7th Aug 2008 1:47 am
dodong, i know about the 6 provinces under ARMM. let me make it clear, i am not against BJE if applied for those 6 provinces mentioned. what is being disputed here are the other provinces that twice rejected inclusion in the ARMM. what made you think the people will change their “No” votes to “Yes” this time? it will only happen if Gloria or whoever is the setting president will force her/his will against those people’s will but that would be unconstitutional. i say not even in our lifetime will this plan happen. i even think Balabac which is muslim populated will never agree to join BJE.
sitting duck? you made me laugh. tell that to the marines. if the milf has that capability, they could have driven the military out of these areas already. remember what erap did during his time? the military could have easily overran all the milf’s camps if not for the intervention of the OIC and other peace advocates. and don’t talk about ancestral domain to me. if that should be the basis then there would be no limit to the milf’s claim. try to apply that in your adopted country (w/ the list mentioned by justice league).
grd on Thu, 7th Aug 2008 1:57 am
justice,
i wonder what made some people here think that muslim mindanao is more friendlier with the americans than people in the north. is it because of ely pamatong?
DevilsAdvc8 on Thu, 7th Aug 2008 2:02 am
cvj, no. it goes farther from that. i had a post predicting events that will happen after the civil war
how the victors will fight between themselves, and chop up the country
grd on Thu, 7th Aug 2008 2:05 am
opps correction, i mean more friendly than…
justice league on Thu, 7th Aug 2008 2:08 am
Grd,
Confining myself to the issue of the MILF (I actually have some Muslim friends); I wouldn’t know as I still think it is a stone to self’s head scenario as far as the Americans are concerned.
Good night.
Bert on Thu, 7th Aug 2008 2:40 am
“Defensor said the MOA also violated the “inherent†powers of Congress when the legislature was not consulted on the agreement.â€â€¦â€¦.Inquirer
Just wait when glossy, glossy paper bags go the round at the guest house then we will see the difference.
d0d0ng on Thu, 7th Aug 2008 2:55 am
“don’t talk about ancestral domain to me. if that should be the basis then there would be no limit to the milf’s claim”
Unfortunately, Estrada government is gone. You should be in the GRP panel. But the Arroyo government found it wise to give the Moros their ancestral domain in exchange of independence. And the general already told the vice governor that the AFP will not defend you.
grd – what options do you have, other than the court?
Bert on Thu, 7th Aug 2008 3:02 am
grd to justice:
“i wonder what made some people here think that muslim mindanao is more friendlier with the americans than people in the north. is it because of ely pamatong?”
No, grd, it has nothing to do with ely pamatong.
Remember that Saddam and the Taleban in Afghanistan were friendlier with the American(and vice versa) during the early stages before the American changed their mind.
The question to ask is ‘why the Americans are friendlier to Muslim Mindanao than to people in the north?’
The answer is the same.
d0d0ng on Thu, 7th Aug 2008 3:09 am
grd – lets exaggerate this a little bit.
Say the MILF is knocking your door and told you to move out because it is their ancestral domain supported by the government initialed MOA-AD. The justices in Padre Faura give you assurance that everything is on hold though hardly can be enforced when the military enforcer through its general is saying, sorry we cannot help you.
That is something close to reality.
UP n student on Thu, 7th Aug 2008 3:10 am
d0d0ng: It does not take much brainpower to realize that there are many options available.
Interestingly, the Republic has many more options than the MILF.
supremo on Thu, 7th Aug 2008 4:49 am
This MOA reminded me of the Indian nations in the United States and tribal sovereignty.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tribal_sovereignty
If the US has a hand in this MOA then they probably introduce the concept of tribal sovereignty during the peace talks. The problem is the GRP and MILF cannot properly explain the concept to the Filipinos because it is alien even to them.
UP n student on Thu, 7th Aug 2008 5:27 am
supremo: more casinos!!!! yeh-bah!!!
UP n student on Thu, 7th Aug 2008 5:29 am
supremo: more casinos!!!! yayyy!!!!
d0d0ng on Thu, 7th Aug 2008 6:26 am
Imagine VAT free goods, chocolates, blue seal cigarettes, cheap imported cars, etc….. the backbone of muslim trading industry.
It will be the choice destination for shopping spree -BangsaMoro land. It will spur economic growth.
leytenian on Thu, 7th Aug 2008 7:15 am
dodong,
I agree with you.
The MOA-AD will also apply to all Visayan and Mindanao regions.
KG on Thu, 7th Aug 2008 7:25 am
kung halimbawa if it is true that one treasure hunter hid a treasure in a cave and it is now shared by many stakeholders, the military ,the police,the local gov and the MILF and keep it secret to everyone except for a few photo ops. would you like it to remain that way ,assuming it is no BS?
if this is not BS,
siguro part nito nasa ayala museum na(di ang daming dinaanan ng ayala bago ito makuha), even if those artifacts would be cheap if appraised by the different auction houses, it would remain priceless to us Filipinos.
========================================
forget about the treasures for a while.
back to mOA sa VFA ngkagulo din nung una pero para yata ang dahilan kaya nakalusot ito ay wala na daw magagawa dahil me initial na bawat page, at ito siguro ang basihan ng milf sa claim na done deal ito.
Please correct me on this.
================================
on why I believe that any term extension is a non issue:
IF ever we all do the chacha before 2010.
if there is a constituent assembly, papayag ba ang senate na kasali sila sa 2/3 ng body count ng congress; issue ito dati, I think it di pa din sila papayag na maging ganun ulit ang scenario.
at sa plebiscite kailangan linawin muna natin kung ano ang laman ng bagong constitution at piliting alamin kung me term extension pag wala then go.
pag matuloy plebiscite tutukan natin kung me magic na nagyayari.
sa time constraint na one year plus,di matatapos yan
so what are we afraid of?
papayag ba ang mga presidentiables dyan?
================================
on recent comments on survey results by Justice Scalia(past thread)
nung nadinig ko si dureza pareho ang sinabi nya sa yo: to make 1.2 million appear like 80 million.
So both sides no not believe in the science of sampling and statistics.
NUng di tayo maniwala sa GDP results,katakut takot na bangayan na statistics and economics is a science and not magic,tapos sa surveys sampling is no longer a science magic na din.
what if the results are all in favor of GMA,would the doubt about PULSE ASIA et al remain?
TonGuE-tWisTeD on Thu, 7th Aug 2008 7:36 am
d0d0ng:
“It will be the choice destination for shopping spree -BangsaMoro land. It will spur economic growth.
Nah, it will only spur smuggling and IPR piracy and spell death to the local manufacturing, film and software industries. Do you believe SM Prime or Ayala Land will invest in Basilan or Sulu or Maguindanao?
But it might enable Bangsamoroland KFR, Inc. to make the Forbes Top 500 if KFR beats BPO in revenues.
TonGuE-tWisTeD on Thu, 7th Aug 2008 7:47 am
BTW, the “initialed” Ancestral Domain doc is the biggest ransom payment ever for a KFR group that has held hostage a significant area of the south for several decades.
‘Nuff with “We do not deal with terrorists”. Right, Ms. Kenney?
leytenian on Thu, 7th Aug 2008 7:48 am
America needs a President like Prime Minister John Howard of Australia.
“Muslims who want to live under Islamic Sharia law were told on Wednesday to get out of Australia , as the government targeted radicals in a bid to head off potential terror attacks.
Separately, Howard angered some Australian Muslims on Wednesday by saying he supported spy agencies monitoring the nation’s mosques.
Quote: ‘IMMIGRANTS, NOT AUSTRALIANS, MUST ADAPT. Take It Or Leave It. I am tired of this nation worrying about whether we are offending some individual or their culture. Since the terrorist attacks on Bali , we have experienced a surge in patriotism by the majority of Australians’.
‘This culture has been developed over two centuries of
struggles, trials and victories by millions of men and women who have sought freedom’. ‘We speak mainly ENGLISH, not Spanish, Lebanese, Arabic, Chinese, Japanese, Russian, or any other language. Therefore, if you wish to become part of our society . Learn the language!’
‘Most Australians believe in God. This is not some Christian,
right wing, political push, but a fact, because Christian men and women, on Christian principles, founded this nation, and this is clearly documented. It is certainly appr opriate to display it on the walls of our schools. If God offends you, then I suggest you consider another part of the world as your new home, because God is part of our culture.’
‘We will accept your beliefs, and will not question why. All we ask is that you accept ours, and live in harmony and
peaceful enjoyment with us.’
‘This is OUR COUNTRY, OUR LAND, and OUR LIFESTYLE, and we will allow you every opportunity to enjoy all this. But once you are done complaining, whining, and griping about Our Flag, Our Pledge, Our Christian beliefs, or Our Way of Life, I highly encourage you take advantage of one other great Australian freedom,
‘THE RIGHT TO LEAVE’.’
‘If you aren’t happy here then LEAVE. We didn’t
force you to come here. You asked to be here. So accept the country YOU accepted.’
d0d0ng on Thu, 7th Aug 2008 7:53 am
Here is the one that I expected to come out because of the MOA-AD.
According to Manila Standard today, “Senate Minority Leader Aquilino Pimentel said a debate on federalism would begin shortly”.
There is always the thought that if you allow the executive to grant certain regional autonomy on development and revenue, then the Senate might as well do it, grab the initiative and level out the playing fields on areas that would be left behind.
That is definitely a good sign.
d0d0ng on Thu, 7th Aug 2008 8:08 am
Senator Angara was fuming that BJE can conduct foreign relations (it needs to if they have to retain the Sabah interest under ancestral domain with support of central government) and can issue its own currency. Maybe a kampil or kris or gong would be on any of the side.
supremo on Thu, 7th Aug 2008 8:09 am
UP n student,
‘more casinos!!!! yayyy!!!!’
We were actually talking about going to Mohegan Sun when I connected the Indian nation concept to the BJE. If that’s how the BJE will work then I really see more bloodshed. The differences in interpretation of the MOA will just lead to more fighting. The MILF, Jaafar in particular, probably did not understand what they just signed.
d0d0ng on Thu, 7th Aug 2008 8:33 am
“Nah, it will only spur smuggling and IPR piracy and spell death to the local manufacturing, film and software industries. Do you believe SM Prime or Ayala Land will invest in Basilan or Sulu or Maguindanao?”
Smuggling (tax evasion) is gone when custom duties will be liberalized. Local production will increase and will be marketed outside. BangsaMoro can offer better incentives for businesses with less decision-time turnaround unlike the central government bogged down in huge bureaucracy.
leytenian on Thu, 7th Aug 2008 8:37 am
The MILF, Jaafar agreed on
“The Parties agree to invite a multinational third-party to observe and monitor the actual implementation of the comprehensive compact which will embody the details for the effective enforcement of this Agreement. The participation of the third-party shall not in any way affect the status of the relationship between the Central Government and the BJE.”
I’m curious of the third party. Sounds like a military base
justice league on Thu, 7th Aug 2008 9:03 am
Dodong,
“Say the MILF is knocking your door and TOLD YOU TO MOVE OUT BECAUSE it is their ancestral domain supported by the government initialed MOA-AD.”
A lot of the time I’d love to discuss an issue with someone whose views differ from mine.
But this is getting too much.
This line of argument is so bad for the MILF that any self respecting MILF sympathizer should be asking YOU which side are you really on!
justice league on Thu, 7th Aug 2008 9:03 am
Dodong,
“Say the MILF is knocking your door and TOLD YOU TO MOVE OUT BECAUSE it is their ancestral domain supported by the government initialed MOA-AD.”
A lot of the time I’d love to discuss an issue with someone whose views differ from mine.
But this is getting too much.
This line of argument is so bad for the MILF that any self respecting MILF sympathizer should be asking YOU which side are you really on!
leytenian on Thu, 7th Aug 2008 9:34 am
In addition to the Australian Prime Minister..
This is basically the way Switzerland operates. After a minimum of 12 years of living in Switzerland, one can start the process of naturalization. The main requirements are: * You are integrated in the Swiss community. * You are accustomed to Swiss way of life and practices. * You comply with the Swiss legal system. * You in no way compromise the internal or external security of Switzerland.
There was a story of a Turkish dentist who was denied Swiss citizenship. He applied after 18 years of practicing dentistry in the country. The reason for his denial was that he brought Turkish workers and material to construct his house in Switzerland. Not the Swiss way of doing things.
Actually, this is the growing trend in western Europe. While in Amsterdam, one of the big stories was about a Muslim group upset that their building permit for a new mosque was denied. At the same meeting, a permit was issued for a new brothel. It speaks volumes especially since prostitution and pot are legal in Amsterdam and the Dutch society is very free and open.
Now many groups want to halt “the Islamization” of European cities. Their reasons are that Muslims aren’t assimilating, don’t accept Western values and pose a threat to security.
As it always happens, a few bad apples have to ruin it for everybody .
It’s interesting…
UP n student on Thu, 7th Aug 2008 9:52 am
to leytenian: the MILF does not pose a security threat
to Greece. To Pinas, yes, to Greece, no.
hvrds on Thu, 7th Aug 2008 11:05 am
‘Most Australians believe in God. This is not some Christian,right wing, political push, but a fact, because Christian men and women, on Christian principles, founded this nation, and this is clearly documented. It is certainly appr opriate to display it on the walls of our schools. If God offends you, then I suggest you consider another part of the world as your new home, because God is part of our culture.’
Belief in Deism or being a theist does not naturally makes one a Christian.
What does he mean by Christian principles??????The minute you divide people by the religions they follow even amongst religions that believe in theism you will get into trouble. Everyone is free to practice and worship based on their cultural history individually. Never raise it to a societal imperative. Australia is simply a historical construct by Europeans dominated by Anglo Saxon homo sapiens. The indigenous peoples are the aborigines. In time the peoples of Indonesia and China will swallow up Australia.
Rabbi Yesu was a Jew and lived his life as a Jew.
This belief in Christianism which means Messianism is dangerous.
Abe N. Margallo on Thu, 7th Aug 2008 11:06 am
mlq3 or anyone, do you have any independent confirmation that U.S. Ambassador to the Philippines Kristie Kinney if not for the TRO was ready to attend the aborted signing of the MoA-AD in Malaysia?
supremo on Thu, 7th Aug 2008 12:23 pm
After realizing the similarity of the concept of Indian nations in the US and the MOA between the GRP and MILF, I can safely say that the BJE is the Biggest Joke Ever inflicted by the Republic of the Philippines on the secessionist movement. Jaafar and Kabalu should go to the US and live among the Native American tribes to see for themselves how far they are from achieving an independent Bangsamoro.
supremo on Thu, 7th Aug 2008 12:26 pm
dOdOng,
‘Senator Angara was fuming that BJE can conduct foreign relations’
Angara probably did not know that Native American nations maintain ‘embassies’ in Washington DC?
supremo on Thu, 7th Aug 2008 12:32 pm
dOdOng,
‘Smuggling (tax evasion) is gone when custom duties will be liberalized’
Native Americans in Canada regularly ‘export’ weeds to their Native American brothers on the US side. They can do it with impunity because they consider themselves as citizens of sovereign Native American nations.
d0d0ng on Thu, 7th Aug 2008 12:53 pm
“mlq3 or anyone, do you have any independent confirmation that U.S. Ambassador to the Philippines Kristie Kinney if not for the TRO was ready to attend the aborted signing of the MoA-AD in Malaysia?”
The US Ambassador made a statement in a video at Kuala Lumpur.
http://www.abs-cbnnews.com/
news in video with title
MILF snubs Malaysia meet with GRP
cvj on Thu, 7th Aug 2008 1:11 pm
Abe, in addition to D0d0ng’s link, here’s one from Mindanews.
Devils (at 2:02 am), i see. i’ll have to dig that one up.
mlq3 on Thu, 7th Aug 2008 1:26 pm
would it not be safe to assume that we already see the economic orientation of a future bje, and that would be with malaysia as its focus? the dvd distribution system is anchored on malaysia, with the moro areas as the distribution center and the philippines as the target market but not center of production.
hvrds on Thu, 7th Aug 2008 1:41 pm
The best thing the Phils. could do is integrate with both Malaysia and Indonesia and start to put a clamp on the businesses of Greater China.
That would require the purging of the mindset that is predominant within the economic policy makers in both the Indonesia and Philippines at the present time. We could send Washington Sycip back to China or to the U.S.
The land available to become food self sufficient in the three countries would be more than sufficient. East Timor could be invited to join to get out of of the dependency on Australia.
Having an almost domestic market base of 250m would be more than enough to offset the dominance of the chopsticks group.
Of all the major groups in Asia the Malay group is the most backward.
Malaysia is a resource based exporter and not an industrial or consumer based exporter.
Australia can be kept simply an exporter of resources.
leytenian on Thu, 7th Aug 2008 1:50 pm
“Native Swedes have been moving away from the city for years, turned into refugees in their own country by Jihad, not too different from the non-Muslims in some regions of the Philippines, southern Thailand or Kashmir in India, or for that matter Christian Serbs in Kosovo.”
http://www.islam-watch.org/Fjordman/Jihad-Collapse-Sweden.htm
UP n student on Thu, 7th Aug 2008 8:42 pm
A progressive
recommendation, courtesy of d0d0ng. The recommendation:
The “progressive” part???
mlp on Thu, 7th Aug 2008 10:11 pm
Our case is unique and entirely different from other type of self determination experience.
In the case of the native americans, they are a legitimate “First Nation” to the european americans but their ancestral domain is still within the context of the US Constitution. In our case we are all First Nation including the aeta and before the europeans came who split into Muslim Bangsamoro and Bayan-indio Kristiano.
In the case of India and Pakistan, their separateness between widu and muslim preceded the grant of independence and partition was inevitable.
In the case of East Timor, their separateness and distinctiveness precedes the transfer from the Dutch to the Indonesian Government. Besides, the Indonesian Government forcibly has forcibly taken their homeland and rule it without concern to the Timorese People.
In the case of Singapore, the Federation of Malaya enthusiastically gave them away because the ethnic Chinese are threat to the Malay.
In our case the Americans waged and won a pacification campaign from 1902 to 1913 and thenceforth gave the moros good government. From 1913 until 1971, integration, assimilation or any cooperation in some form if not successful never led to secession or any independence ideas. It was only at the time of President Marcos when Mindanao Muslim leaders started entertaining secession and independence. This failure in good governance from 1971 until now is the pestering cause of Muslim leaders’ craving for their own homeland, Not only them but even Mindanao christian leaders want their own homeland.
But what homeland?. The Philippines is our homeland. It is the homeland of Muslim and Christians. Give us leaders of good government and nobody will cry for its own homeland. Continue with bad government and everybody will secede and seek for their own homeland. Give the filipinos good leaders and good government and nobody will seek for their own homeland.
If we give MILF their own homeland and they give governance will I be allowed to join them and petition my beloved island of Panay to join them. I will rather join them than move to other countries and work as an “ulipon” Let us stop all this talk talk and talk. Let us consult each other for one year and hold a plebiscite not only for bangsamoro but for ilocanos, tagalogs, bicolanos, visayans and all indigenous people if we want to stay with the present bad and corrupt leaders and government or we just go our own way. If we give this privilege to the milf why not give this to all the ethnic groups of the country. At the very least, I would rather be that we are assured of getting our 75 % share of the wealth of our ancestral domain, than stay with the Strong Republic whom I believe waste 90% of our resources and only give 10 % if ever back to the people.
LONG LIVE the MOA-AD but apply it equally to the filipino people. NO NBN-ZTE!NO SWINE SCAM, NO JOCJOC BOLANTE, ETC! Ad Nauseam! Let us try MOA-AD if this is the only way we can shake and cleanse ourselves of corruption and injustices. The MILF succeeded to do this because a lot of foreign governments and the bangsamoro people has supported their aspirations!
d0d0ng on Fri, 8th Aug 2008 1:55 am
“would it not be safe to assume that we already see the economic orientation of a future bje, and that would be with malaysia as its focus? the dvd distribution system is anchored on malaysia, with the moro areas as the distribution center and the philippines as the target market but not center of production.”
It is the other way around. The culture in Malaysia and Singapore is more restrictive than in the Philippines which made a decline of artists in those 2 countries. In fact, they have to hire foreign entertainers as explained to us by our expat friends in Malaysia.And so is the production of videos too.
TonGuE-tWisTeD on Fri, 8th Aug 2008 7:09 am
dodong, I believe Manolo was referring to the DVD pirates’ production, not the legit film/video production
pushprojectileagainstpropellant on Sat, 9th Aug 2008 7:47 pm
The Philippine military is perfectly capable of wiping out these “rebels,” ask anyone you know in the afp and they will tell you how offensive after offensive are halted just as they are about to be overwhelmed (except in Erap’s time). How can you win if you’re being held back?
This is too much, a Singaporean once commented that we Filipinos have very low self esteem and some of us are just good at keeping a facade. We could have put a stop to Gloria during the “Hello Garci,” pa lang. We’re still tolerating her and her minions the way we tolerate the mindless, idiotic, tirades of pseudo-intellectual non-entities like BENCARD, DODONG, and the rest of the pretenders here…how much are you getting paid ba talaga???
grd on Mon, 11th Aug 2008 2:52 am
hi Justice,
sorry for making you uncomfortable. the joke was meant for those conspiracy theorists. i don’t think anyone in mindanao could have heard such a brilliant story. mahathir will not like it.
grd on Mon, 11th Aug 2008 3:13 am
dodong, or shall we say, what options do you have or the MILF or the GRP if the court decides that the MOA-AD is unconstitutional? starts massing troops? grab christian farmlands? you say govt has no control over MILF’s territories(?), like North Cotabato and PINOL WILL NOT GET SUPPORT FROM THE MILITARY? well, the MILITARY just gave the MILF the ultimatum to leave the area. what’s your next option?
grd on Mon, 11th Aug 2008 3:24 am
nah. all you have to do is wake up from your stupor… refer back to my 3:13am comment.
Arnold on Tue, 12th Aug 2008 11:53 am
This is a test post
reydan on Tue, 12th Aug 2008 12:55 pm
trouble is everywhere. To have a rightful relationship between human beings and stability of the social order we must act with justice, give everyone his due, and observe honesty and good faith.