“The Dead Flame”: reflections for the weekend
February 22, 2008 by mlq3
Filed under Daily Dose
Here is a video that encapsulates it all: the precise instant that Romanian dictator Nicolai Ceausescu lost control of his people.
The title of my entry is taken from the title of one of my favorite chapters in one of my favorite books,“Shah of Shahs” (Ryszard Kapuscinski).
And this is my favorite passage from that chapter, a useful reflection as we look back to 1986 and 2001, and ponder what we want to happen in the days, weeks, months, years to come:
Revolution must be distinguished from revolt, coup d’etat, palace takeover. A coup or a palace takeover may be planned, but a revolution -never. Its outbreak, the hour of that outbreak, takes everyone, even those who have been striving for it, unawares. They stand amazed at the spontaneity that appears suddenly and destroys everything in its path. It demolishes so ruthlessly that in the end it may annihilate the ideals that called it into being.
It is a mistaken assumption that nations wronged by history (and they are in the majority) live with the constant thought of revolution, that they see it as the simplest solution. Every revolution is a drama, and humanity instinctively avoids dramatic situations. Even if we find ourselves in such a situation we look feverishly for a way out, we seek calm and, most often, the commonplace. This is why revolutions never last long. They are a last resort, and if people turn to revolution it is only because long experience has taught them there is no other solution. All other attempts, all other means have failed.* Every revolution is preceded by a state of general exhaustion and takes place against a backdrop of unleashed aggressiveness. Authority cannot put up with a nation that gets on its nerves; the nation cannot tolerate an authority an authority it has come to hate. Authority has squandered all its credibility and has empty hands, the nation has lost the final scrap of patience and makes a fist. A climate of tension and increasing oppressiveness prevails. We start to fall into a psychosis of terror. The discharge is coming. We feel it.
As for the technique of the struggle, history knows two kinds of revolution. The first is revolution by assault, the second revolution by siege. All the future fortune, the success, of a revolution by assault is decided by the reach of the first blow. Strike and seize as much ground as possible! This is important because such a revolution, while the most violent, is also the most superficial. The adversary has been defeated, but in retreating he has preserved a part of his forces. He will counter-attack and force the victor to withdraw. Thus, the more far-reaching the first blow, the greater the area that can be saved in spite of later concessions. In a revolution by assault, the first phase is the most radical. The subsequent phases are a slow but incessant withdrawal to the point at which the two sides, the rebelling and the rebelled-against, reach the final compromise. A revolution by siege is different; here the first strike is usually weak and we can hardly surmise that it forebodes a cataclysm. But events soon gather speed and become dramatic. More and more people take part. The walls behind which authority has been sheltering crack and then burst. The success of a revolution by siege depends on the determination of the rebels, on their will power and endurance. One more day! One more push! In the end, the gates yield, the crowd breaks in and celebrates its triumph.
It is authority that provokes revolution. Certainly, it does not do so consciously. Yet its style of life and way of ruling finally become a provocation. This occurs when a feeling of impunity takes root among the elite: We are allowed anything, we can do anything. This is a delusion, but it rests on a certain rational foundation. For a while, it does indeed look as if they can do whatever they want. Scandal after scandal and illegality after illegality go unpunished. The people remain silent, patient, wary. They are afraid and do not yet feel their own strength. At the same time, they keep a detailed account of the wrongs, which at one particular moment are to be added up. The choice of that moment is the greatest riddle known to history. Why did it happen on that day, and not on another? Why did this event, and not some other, bring it about? After all, the government was indulging in even worse excesses only yesterday, and there was no reaction at all. “What have I done?” asks the ruler, at a loss. “What has possessed them all of a sudden?” This is what he has done: He has abused the patience of the people. But where is the limit of that patience? How can it be defined? If the answer can be determined at all, it will be different in each case. The only certain thing is that rulers who know that such a limit exists and know how to respect it can count on holding power for a long time. But there are few such rulers.
So was 1986 a Revolution by Siege and 2001 a Revolution by Assault? And the fate of the President lies in her hands, not in those of her critics. Something to ponder. I’ll give you a couple of concrete examples of what I mean.
In the case of Manuel Gaite, his wife has, understandably (and even justifiably) enough pleaded for fairness because of the public criticisms of her husband’s behavior. But we ought to consider how much of the outrageous arrows of fortune now sticking out of her husband, is due to those who have accepted Jun Lozada’s statesments as Gospel truth, and how much are due to Gaite’s own statetements -and that of the Palace. Gaite’s defense is a simple one: he is a good soldier, but a foot soldier may be the first to fall, as Fr. Joaquin Bernas points out in Shielding the President; and a soldier, even if good, fighting to what end? As History Unfolding points out, an official may fight well but not for worthy goals. Even the good soldier defense, as Torn & Frayed pointed out, insults the intelligence.
For this reason and many others (he surely had a hand in drafting some of the most noxious executive issuances of our time), while I sympathize with Mrs. Gaite and I think Gaite himself tries to be a good person, I am unsympathetic to where this has all led him.
In his testimony before the Senate, and indeed, on the basis of the administration officials who testified, one thing they didn’t shirk was that they tried to prevent Lozada from appearing before the Senate. Gaite admitted the Palace’s objective was to facilitate Lozada’s leaving the country until the Senate could wrap up the ZTE hearings. A recent Inquirer summed it up as a confession of conspiracy. What the administration tried to dodge was the allegation of abduction.
Another, and related, example is this: Lozada passport turned over to court. I’ve heard it said that when the passport was produced, the faces of the lawyers from the Solicitor-General’s office fell. The whole problem with the passport, apparently, was that a stamp showing Lozada had gone through immigration upon his arrival would have demolished the claim of an abduction. The problem was, no lower-level person from the Bureau of Immigration wanted to be a party to order to stamp the passport: it would have required a lower-level bureaucrat to stake his name and reputation on saying he’d stamped the passport when Lozada arrived, when no immigration official did. This implies that these bureaucrats didn’t think it was worth their while to take the heat for their bosses -and the surrendering of the passport to the court by a lower-level security person is a similar refusal to further take the heat for the bosses.
Let me refer, once more, to my Thursday column, Minimum and maximum, which tries to distinguish between two courts: of public opinion and of the law. Each has their proper place and they are not, much as the Palace insists, mutually exclusive: but each has its proper place and both are being actively resorted to (most recently: Lozada files kidnap, murder raps vs Razon, Atienza, et al ). Last Tuesday on my show my lawyer guest pointed out that Lozada’s testimony before the Senate is significant, in that it can be used to impeach him in court cases; therefore his assertions can actually fortify or weaken cases related to him or to officials in the courts.
Meanwhile let me state for the record that whatever my own preferences may be, I do not think a consensus for People Power exists, yet; or that there is even a widespread demand for the President’s resignation, yet: because there is no consensus on what should come afterwards. I find it heartening that people from all sides are making efforts to encourage arriving at a consensus.
But I do think three things have happened: first, more people are open to either option, and second, that the President faces a significant erosion in the constituency she fairly successfully claimed to represent from 2001 to the present: big business, the entrepreneurial class, include the Filipino-Chinese merchant class, professionals, and the provinces, and the majority of the hierarchy of the Catholic Church. Why this has taken place, now, is best clarified by Manuel Buencamino in his column, Everyone has a limit.
At the Mass in La Salle Greenhills on Sunday, I saw a classmate and good friend of Mike Arroyo. I teased him, took his picture with my cell phone, and told him, “I’m going to ‘MMS’ this photo to your friends Mike and Gloria.†He replied, “I already waved my middle finger at them when I passed the security cameras at the gate.â€
I saw a nun from the Assumption College, Gloria Arroyo’s alma mater and bastion of support. My daughter commented, “Look, dad, there’s a lonely Assumption nun. Are they breaking ranks?â€
I laughed and texted Manuel Quezon III about the apparition and he texted back, “She is not alone.â€
Everyone has his limits. I suppose that’s what Gloria’s bishops meant when they said there is some good in everyone, including unrepentant liars, bribers, cheaters, plunderers, kidnappers and murderers.
Third, even among those still unprepared to consider resignation or People Power, there is also a growing number of people who have reached the conclusion that the President does not intend to step down in 2010, but they are still digesting the implications of this realization.
As Amando Doronila points out in Mounting outrage, little momentum :
Although there are signs of increasing public outrage over the NBN scandal, a higher state of outrage is needed to send huge numbers of people to the streets. The military is watching the size of the crowd before it makes a move either to remain loyal to the commander in chief or withdraw support, like it did in 2001, when the general staff dumped Estrada.
And yet, as Mon Casiple suggests,
Malacañang is scrambling for the initiative. Mobilization by friendly LGU units are being planned, sprinkled by a few pro-GMA NGOs and church personalities. A media offensive has been launched–against Lozada, JDV, the opposition, and even against Vice-President Noli de Castro. The de Castro media attack seeks to prevent a possible de Castro defection that can fundamentally undermine GMA’s chances of survival.
And so, for betting men, the Asia Sentinel (in Philippines + Scandal = Life Goes On , which resembles Doronila’s views) is right in saying the advantage remains with the administration. For some, the old arguments still hold water, as shown by A Simple Life. See also …got my life back….
But if it is unable to turn the tide before Holy Week, then what? Let’s return to Mon Casiple:
If it is not able to regain the initiative in the coming days, then the momentum for people power may not be denied and a GMA resignation will be the only outcome, either to preempt people power or as a consequence of one. The key institutions to watch are the Catholic church, big business, military, the Cabinet, and the ruling coalition. All these are watching closely the rise of the people’s movement and are making their decisions on an hour-by-hour basis.
The political crisis may be resolved in a matter of days or weeks; failure to do so will create a sustained and debilitating crisis for the rest of the year.
Ricky Carandang pretty much sees the same challenge facing the administration: having created problems for itself, how does it turn the tables on its critics? In a suitably short period of time, too. See what reporter Jove Francisco has to say, too, about the way old strategies don’t work as effectively, anymore. See pine for pine for another example. But blog@AWB Holdings doesn’t think that trotting out the President’s Assumption friends really helps.
There is only so much we can do. But of the things we can do -consulting with people, fostering consensus, but also, recognizing our own limits and what we will do if those limits are going to be crossed by possible events- let’s do them.
There is another broad consensus that I think exists: that the problems are deep, and yes, systemic, and this means once we take a step in a particular direction, we have to ask ourselves if we are prepared to live with events unfolding to their logical conclusion. Which, of course, includes the risk of unintended consequences, too.
Let me close with another illuminating passage from the same chapter from the same book I quoted at the beginning of this entry:
The Shah’s reflex was typical of all despots: Strike first and suppress, then think it over: What next? First, display muscle, make a show of strength, and later perhaps demonstrate you also have a brain. Despotic authority attaches great importance to being considered strong, and much less to bering admired for its wisdom. Besides, what does wisdom mean to a despot? It means skill in the use of power. The wise despot know when and how to strike. This continual display of power is necessary because, at root, any dictatorship appeals to the lowest instincts of the governed: fear, aggressiveness towards one’s neighbors, bootlicking. Terror most effectively excites such instincts, and fear of strength is the wellspring of terror.
A despot believes that man is an abject creature. Abject people fill his court and populate his environment. A terrorized society will behave like an unthinking, submissive mob for a long time. Feeding it is enough to make it obey. Provided with amusements, it’s happy. The rather small arsenal of political tricks has not changed in millennia. Thus, we have all the amateurs in politics, all the ones convinced they would know how to govern if only they had the authority. Yet surprising things can also happen. Here is a well-fed and well-entertained crowd that stops obeying. It begins to demand something more than entertainment. It wants freedom, it demands justice. The despot is stunned. He doesn’t know how to see a man in all his fullness and glory. In the end such a man threatens dictatorship, he is its enemy. So it gathers its strength and destroys him.
Although dictatorship despises the people, it takes pains to win its recognition. In spite of being lawless -or rather, because it is lawless- it strives for the appearance of legality. On this point it is exceedingly touchy, morbidly oversensitive. Moreover, it suffers from a feeling (however deeply hidden) of inferiority. So it spares no pains to demonstrate to itself and others the popular approval it enjoys. Even if this support is a mere charade, it feels satisfying. So what if it’s only an appearance? The world of dictatorship is full of appearances…
…The most difficult thing to do while living in a palace is to imagine a different life -for instance, your own life, but outside of and minus the palace. Toward the end, the ruler finds people willing to help him out. Many lives, regrettably, can be lost at such moments. The problem of honor in politics. Take de Gaulle -a man of honor. He lost a referendum, tidied up his desk, and left the palace, never to return. He wanted to govern only under the condition that the majority accept him. The moment the majority refused him their trust, he left. But how many are like him? The others will cry, but they won’t move; they’ll torment the nation, but they won’t budge. Thrown out one door, they sneak in through another; kicked down the stairs, they begin to crawl back up. They will excuse themselves, bow and scrape, lie and simper, provided they can stay -or provided they can return. They will hold out their hands -Look, no blood on them. But the very fact of having to show those hands covers them with the deepest shame. They will turn their pockets inside out -Look, there’s not much there. But the very fact of exposing their pockets -how humiliating! The Shah, when he left the palace, was crying. At the airport he was crying again. Later he explained in interviews how much money he had, and that it was less than people thought.
This passage suggests many things; among them, the solid logic behind Atty. Raul Pangalanan’s arguments against The arguments for inaction.
And how’s this for action: First Gentleman leaves for Hong Kong–airport sources: Lawyer clueless but says not evading NBN probes.
Yesterday I texted some people I know outside Manila what they think, re: Lozada. Responses:
Bacolod:
hati rin kmi d2, sa ofc (provl gov’t) we biliv some facts bt questns are many like dat of what he dnt tel snce it s a big questn y now lg xa went out to d open… Protectn 2 life yes, but we cnt say 100% we biliv him…
Also from Bacolod:
They all believe him. But they are also disgusted with his investigators. Nobody I know trust that the Opposition want change -they just want their turn. The big change is they all hate GMA now but no tipping point. [The politicians are] discombobulated. They don’t know how to read the situation now. Even Bacolod’s notorious GMA lapdog Monico Puentevella who has managed to be close to all Presidents since Cory has signed a resolution against GMA which means He’s also paving the way for the next power “just in case.”
A student journalist at La Salle Bacolod:
Do u believe in Jun Lozada’s statements? 1000 Lasallian students. [survey results] 73% YES. 9% NO. 18% undecided.
From Naga City:
Save for some ppld identified wid Dato Arroyo phoning in radio programs, public sentiment is overwhelmingly wid Jun Lozada by a mile. Metro Naga chamber of commerce broke ranks wid PCCI and issued a statement supporting Lozada. Ateneo de Naga and Univ Sta. Isabel leading regl signature campaigning asking GMA to step down./ Ders a big protest event slated tom. da prolonged rains -for more than a wk now- notwithstanding
From Cebu City:
I think most people from Cebu are indifferent when comes to politics. But people do consider him credible. As a business person, most policies of the present administration are skewed towards favored businessmen. Regulatory Capture of Government Agencies is so obvious. Get rid all the nasty people hostaging the president. She’s good but helpless.
Also from a Cebu City friend currently traveling:
Met up w/friend (f. 32, married, filchi, alabang) n BKK, she says ppl back home don’t care anymore -the’ll see see what comes.My sister (f.41.single) joked “Who’s he” but says she was in NAIA with him the other night. Before I left Cebu, my thought my thought was: is this guy for real? is he honest? we all sort of presume that BigBoy is also BadBoy but really do we want yet another popular uprising? I suppose the general sentiment is… there’s a lack of it. people are getting apathetic again -at least marcos babies like us.
From Davao City:
So far, people believe him and his testimony… Pero as far as suportng anodr edsa, dats anodr story. I belv they wud want 2 w8 4 2010. No ppl powr dis tym… Prblm s corrupt s so widespread that ppl hv bcm cncal on d mattr… Evn d senators ond way or odr s nvolvd.
South Cotabato, according to the Davao City texter,
N so cotab2, d sentiment s mor ntense re anti gma coz its a known opositn area.
In Manila, a student from UST has this to say:
Still lookng 4 a concrete thing to do besides rally. Mabe if we start pressuring congressmen to support impeachment now. Itll giv anyone intrsted somthng to do.
Many of dem talk re hs crdblty n hw d whol plan 2 covr up only incrsd prcption dat he’s saying d truth, bt many r also dsenchantd w/ d hrings. F u ask me, d real ish brot abt b d series of NBN probes is being muddld by focus n prsonalties (lozada’s crdbtly, neri’s conscience, abalos’ guilt, gma’s involvmnt). Mnwyl, no 1. evn d opp s movng fast 2 fx d dysfnctional govt procurmnt 2 prvnt such deals frm hpening agn. Dat’s y ppol get tyrd of it ol n tune out
Congres or any poltcian is always undr d comand of pblic presure. Bt pols cnt feel that presure, bec media coverge is muddld, ppol just tune out. F media focuses n d real issues, ppol wil spil on d streets nt (jst) to chnge govt bt to presure it to initiate chnges. When ths starts n media covrs frm an ishus prspctv, a virtuous cycle wil begin, more powrful thn any powr brker. That kind of media advocacy hs bn sucesful in Africa, Europ n evn in US.
D real ishus r d dysfunctions in govt, thos dat Neri hs bn lamentng in hs polecon lectures. No one wants cheatng, bt no one is pushng… for elections effciency. No wnts coruption, bt no one is pushng to chnge d govt procurnmnt systm. no one is keeping govt audts in check (unles they cn use it for poltcal blakmail). D ishus r nt poverty. Povrty s an efect of our systemic problems, w/c is y that shud be our focus, nt ppol. Bec whoevr sits in gov’t r accidntal to do problem. Corruption cn always prospr in a systm left unchckd.
And from a lawyer:
Funny u shld ask, I was discusing it wid an ofcmate ystrdy, he said at first he was riveted by d whole thing but lately wid d idiots in d legislature grandstanding (galit lang dawbec dey werent in on it) he has gotten tired and tuned it out. Sad, and maybe dats d point of dis admin, 2 make pipol so sick as 2 turn apathetic as a way 2 cope.
And I.T. person:
Most people i talk to believe him, they see no ulterior motive for what he is doing.
As for the blogosphere, yugatech on how wiretapping’s getting cheaper; missingpoints on comparing Lozada to Singson. Bayan ni Kabayan on trying to understand Joker Arroyo. The Venom Speaks suggests we all make a self-check first.
Update, 2 am Saturday: noise barrages have caught the imagination of students! Check out video in Life’s precious moments don’t have value, unless they are shared. , and photos in *dawnskee* and rheavargas and I’m becoming tired… , as well as descriptions in spread YOUR wings and catch ME as i fall 
and Fly and forever dance and Me, Myself, and I… and des’ Site and the ME behind the I and “my crazy little place is just around the corner”
And more statements, first from the UP Law Faculty and Students and then:
To a fellow economist and former colleague, Gloria Macapagal-ArroyoA statement from economists of the Ateneo de Manila University
We are outraged by the revelations made by Engr. Rodolfo Noel Lozada Jr. at the Philippine Senate Blue Ribbon hearings last 8 February 2008 about the overpriced Zhong Xing Telecommunication Equipment Company-National Broadband Network (ZTE-NBN) project. The project has no clear public rationale in the first place. We are dismayed by the revelations of Mr. Lozada that former Commission on Election Chairman Benjamin Abalos Sr., with the alleged involvement of First Gentleman Jose Miguel Arroyo, ordered the inclusion in the proposed project a large amount of kickbacks, amounting to as much as 130 million US dollars (or more than 5.2 billion pesos), enough money to remove the yearly public school classroom backlog, or purchase 5.8 million sacks of NFA rice, or alternatively secure the basic needs of about 29,000 poor families for a year. Simply put, a lot is being sacrificed for the greed of the few.We are angered by the continuing attempt to cover up the anomalous circumstances surrounding the project, including the supposed kidnapping of Mr. Lozada to keep him from testifying in the Senate. We demand that government remove the cloak of Executive Order 464 and the invocation of executive privilege to allow public officials that have knowledge on the transaction to publicly testify on the circumstances of the deal. We demand the National Economic and Development Authority (NEDA) to release records of the meetings that allowed the contract to be processed. Because of the nature of the work of the NEDA in national economic planning to promote national development and public welfare (and not for private or individual interests), these minutes are public records. We want Secretary Romulo Neri, an Ateneo high school alumnus and supposed staunch advocate of reforms to eradicate transactional politics and oligarchic dominance in the country, to reveal all that he knows about the matter. Efficiency and equity demand no less.
We abhor the habit of this administration of forging secret deals and engaging in non-transparent processes in developing and contracting large infrastructure projects, especially foreign donor-funded programs, contrary to the tenets of good governance. We call on friends and colleagues in the government, especially the alumni of our university, and other sectors to help ferret out the truth about other alleged irregular deals entered into by corrupt public officials, including the fertilizer scam, the Technical Education and Skills Development Authority book scam and the North Rail project.
We urge our fellow economist, alumna, and former Ateneo colleague, Gloria Macapagal-Arroyo, to fully explain and account for all the anomalies under her administration to prevent our country from plunging into another political and economic crisis. Indeed, we are dismayed that Mrs. Arroyo has not exercised the vast powers and resources available to the Presidency to ensure that large-scale corruption in the government is not only blocked but also punished, and that these irregularities have only increased political instability and uncertainty in the country. We are also offended that the Presidency has instead utilized these vast powers and resources to turn its back from servicing the public and contribute to the advancement of private greed, including the Machiavellian buying of congressmen, governors, and everybody else that get its way. And sadly, these abuses have eroded the meaning and legitimacy of the Presidency. If she fails to fully account and explain the anomalies and corrupt practices in her administration, the most honorable thing she can do is to resign from the Presidency.
Finally, we publicly pledge to heed the Catholic Bishops’ call to communal action by supporting the activities that would promote transparency, accountability, and good governance, and we call on our fellow social scientists and academics to support this advocacy. We pledge to make our voices heard by committing to various ways of peaceful and non-violent political mobilization.
– Signatures –
Fernando T. Aldaba
Cristina M. Bautista
Germelino M. Bautista
Edsel L. Beja, Jr.
Diana U. del Rosario
Luis F. Dumlao
Cielito F. Habito
Leonardo A. Lanzona
Joseph Anthony Y. Lim
Romelia I. Neri
Ellen H. Palanca
Malou A. Perez
Joselito T. Sescon
Tara Sia-Go
Patrick Gerard C. Simon-King
Rosalina P. Tan
Philip Arnold P. Tuaño
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Karl Garcia on Fri, 22nd Feb 2008 3:36 pm
Hi Mnolo,
Nice piece,it is a lot of help to demystify revolution.If you noticed I have a mini exchange with devils about it.
It is always a pleasure to hear from the “Explainer”
Paul on Fri, 22nd Feb 2008 3:48 pm
MLQIII, I was about to write you about your unclosed italic tags but you fixed it soon enough.
Was La Vida Lawyer your guest last Tuesday?
The Equalizer on Fri, 22nd Feb 2008 4:01 pm
It’s TIME to to say ENOUGH!
¡Basta Ya! ( Enough is Enough!)
It’s Time To Say ENOUGH!
As if the spins, half-truths and outright falsehoods of the spin doctors were not enough.
As if the lies about the Hello Garci scandal were not enough.
As if the switching of the ballot boxes in the Batasan was not enough.
As if the squandering of billions of pesos in a litany of scandals since 2001 was not enough.
As if the shroud of secrecy that binds this administration was not enough.
As if the violations of human rights and the disappearance of Jonas Burgos and many others were not enough.
As if the gross neglect of the very poor (except on election time) by this administration was not enough.
As if the Palace bribery of congressmen and governors was not enough.
As if the kleptocracy of Jose Pidal was not enough.
Now ,after all that, we have the abduction of Jun Lozada and the subsequent cover-up .
Now we have had enough!
WE,FINALLY,HAD ENOUGH!
¡Basta Ya!
mlq3 on Fri, 22nd Feb 2008 4:07 pm
paul., the new version of ecto on which im utterly reliant is kinda messed up. yes, marvin aceron was my guest last tues.
Jeg on Fri, 22nd Feb 2008 4:16 pm
So was 1986 a Revolution by Siege and 2001 a Revolution by Assault?
2001 was a coup, not a revolution. And the SC said it was constitutional throughout.
Let me state here (might as well) my position. Im for People Power, not to oust her, but to make her resign, that is, to make her sign a document, address it to Congress and the SC, and state that she is resigning. Im for influential people, our leaders, backed by us in street demonstrations, petitions, whatever, talking to her and stating our case. Im for her making whatever negotiations she needs to make to make her resignation a win-win situation for all of us. Im also for impeachment and trial by the Senate. These are doable, IMO.
nash on Fri, 22nd Feb 2008 4:28 pm
Happy Edsa Holiday Everyone!
Jon Mariano on Fri, 22nd Feb 2008 4:33 pm
Having failed in the last two EDSAs is no reason to dump it as a solution. Maybe the third time is a charm? (Third time in changing the president.)
tonio on Fri, 22nd Feb 2008 4:58 pm
so where do you guys stand regarding Joson’s PHP 2Bn Snap Elections Bill?
Jeg on Fri, 22nd Feb 2008 5:03 pm
so where do you guys stand regarding Joson’s PHP 2Bn Snap Elections Bill?
My question is, can there be a snap election under out present constitution without the resignation of the President, the VP, the Senate President, and the Speaker? Kasama ba sa house bill ni Joson ang panawagan para sa pagbibitiw ng mga ito? Hindi ko kasi nabasa e.
tonio on Fri, 22nd Feb 2008 5:07 pm
Jon M.:
Third time’s the charm, but not if you’re going to do the same thing all over again. Then no matter how many times you do it, it’s still going to be a joke.
“To every thing there is a season; and a time to every purpose under heaven.” (Ecclesiastes 3:1)
And if the lessons of history have not shown this clearly enough, let me say again: This is not a time to destroy.
tonio on Fri, 22nd Feb 2008 5:11 pm
jeg:
i just heard about it on the radio, i haven’t had time to dig it up. let me get back to you.
Kabayan on Fri, 22nd Feb 2008 5:14 pm
Hi Manolo, thanks for linking my article.
Personally I think “Revolution by Siege” is good; of course when the proper opportunity presents itself “Revolution by Assault” may be taken. I however do not want to pattern our revolution to the bloody butchery which is the norm to most revolutions in foreign lands (as some has suggested since they said this was the mistake of EDSA I and II.) We should take the Filipino way and evolve the style ourselves. While I respect the opinions of those who want a violent overthrow, I do not advocate such and would rather go for the non-violent alternative. How this is to be properly done is a point to ponder however.
There is still a need to formulate a “safety net” so that the last minute vultures who transfer to those who oppose ill-governance, those incurable balimbings, unforgivably corrupt bureaucrats and trapos must be screened (jailed if necessary) while the white knights ,even those currently serving in government, must be protected, extolled and given responsible positions. From here we go to lists which we had already discussed. Hope civil society and anti-corruption groups could their acts together and avoid the pitfalls and mistakes of the Post Edsa II People Power Revolution.
tonio on Fri, 22nd Feb 2008 5:21 pm
hmmm… Joson’s HB03589 is not on the Congress’ website yet.
manuelbuencamino on Fri, 22nd Feb 2008 5:28 pm
mlq,
ayun those BI officials who refused to stamp Lozada’s passport showed they reached their limit.
Jeg on Fri, 22nd Feb 2008 5:35 pm
I dont know, but with my experience with some BI people at the airport, theyre not exactly paragons of virtue. It wouldve been easy to find somebody who would stamp the passport, or get the stamp itself. LOzada’s people have a more sinister interpretation of the unstamped passport. They said it shows that he never arrived. Meaning tsshhhk (hand across throat). Maybe they planned to ‘find’ the passport in HK or wherever. But the plan wasnt well executed. Surveillance tapes, witnesses, media coverage, and all that.
Floyd Buenavente on Fri, 22nd Feb 2008 5:44 pm
I’ll try to find the book ^_^
cvj on Fri, 22nd Feb 2008 5:46 pm
Jeg, but don’t they stamp the passport when you leave HK? (Maybe Jon M can help on this one.)
Jeg on Fri, 22nd Feb 2008 5:50 pm
Hmm let me check my passport.
They dont if you come from somewhere else and youre just passing thru HK airport. I havent been to HK myself though so maybe John might know. But that’s the story I heard on the news on their interpretation of the unstamped passport.
mlq3 on Fri, 22nd Feb 2008 5:54 pm
cvj, hk immigration stamps, arrival and departure, were complete. what was never affixed as rp bi stamp saying he’d arrived and been processed.
it may not even have anything to do with virtue on the part of the bi people. simply, calculating whether a career bureaucrat wants to take the dive for a political appointee boss.
as a bureaucrat once told me in malacanang, “presidents come and go but we bureaucrats always remain.” when i asked why some presidential issuances were, to put it midly, ignored.
cvj on Fri, 22nd Feb 2008 5:56 pm
mlq3, thanks. That would mean that making it appear that he never left HK is not a viable scenario.
Jeg on Fri, 22nd Feb 2008 6:04 pm
You could have your passport stamped and not get on the plane though. Maybe that was going to be the story.
mlq3 on Fri, 22nd Feb 2008 6:06 pm
no, either way their stories are already screwed. even in court.
Jeg on Fri, 22nd Feb 2008 6:11 pm
And them screwed with it.
Right even if the story was that he never got on the plane, surveillance video at the HK airport would prove he did. If the plan was to make it appear he never arrived, it wasnt a very good one.
Blackshama on Fri, 22nd Feb 2008 6:44 pm
Remember that classic aphorism that says “A revolutions is like Saturn for he devours his children”?
Revolutions are never planned but the confluence of events plus a little luck (or bad luck!) may make it succeed.
Revolts and coups may be plotted but that doesn’t mean it will succeed.
But what may make the difference between success and failure is when people begin to realise that the Revolution is worth taking the risk.
I don’t think the middle classes in this country has reached that point.
ramrod on Fri, 22nd Feb 2008 6:51 pm
“They dont if you come from somewhere else and youre just passing thru HK airport. I havent been to HK myself though so maybe John might know.” – jeg
Nope. They don’t. Only when you actually stay in HK.
ramrod on Fri, 22nd Feb 2008 7:31 pm
Revolutions as described above appear to be the manifestation of “mob psychology.â€
From http://lilarajiva.wordpress.com/2007/07/28/mob-psychology-101/
MOB PSYCHOLOGY 101
Mob violence certainly signals collapse of the Rule of Law and absence of normal political conversation and decision-making.
Every case of mob violence is different; yet what could be common is a temporary, if deliberate, suspension of the normal human sense of responsibility on part of a mob’s individual members. Reason and responsibility return if at all only after the evil has been accomplished ~ whether it is killing or assaulting someone or destroying something ~ and it can be accompanied by a sense of remorse and regret. Even where mob tyranny has been systematic, long-term, ideologically-driven and state-sponsored, as with the Inquisition or French Revolution or Nazi, Soviet or Chinese terrors, future generations look back at the past misdeeds of their ancestors and say: “That was wrong, very wrong, it should never have happenedâ€. Moral learning does take place at some time or other, even if it is long after the evil has occurred. It is as if, when sobriety and rationality return, an individual participant in a mob realises and recognises himself/herself to have revealed a baser ignoble side which is shameful.
When the mob forms itself, its members individually choose to suppress their normal rational personalities and sense of adult responsibility, and permit instead their cunning animal or babyish instincts to take over and reign supreme within themselves. It must be a collective decision even if silently taken: for one person to behave in such a manner would look identifiably stupid and criminal but for him/her to do so in a group where everyone has simultaneously decided to abandon reason (whether spontaneously or shouting slogans together) allows the loss of individual responsibility to become hidden in the mass, and the collective to take on features of a hydra-headed monster, capable of the vilest deeds without the slightest self-doubt. The victim of their violence or abuse will often be an individual who stands out in some way ~ perhaps by natural or social attributes or even by heroic deeds: indeed Freud suggested that primitive tribes sometimes engaged in parricide and regicide, cannibalising their individual heroes in the belief that by consuming something of the hero’s remains those attributes might magically reappear in themselves.
ramrod on Fri, 22nd Feb 2008 7:33 pm
Oops, I posted an article on Mob Psychology 101 as it very much looks related to “revolution” as described above but its under moderation.
missingpoints on Fri, 22nd Feb 2008 8:25 pm
Wow, di ba pinulikat ang daliri nung UST student sa pag-text nun?
Raine Subijano on Fri, 22nd Feb 2008 8:55 pm
Mr. Quezon, this is Raine from University of Asia and the Pacific. In line with the EDSA Revolution celebration on the 25th, we (The Institute of Political Economy) have organized what we call as “EDSA week”. The theme of our event is entitled “EDSA Revolution: A False Promise?â€, and one of the activities of the celebration is a talk on 26 February 2008 (Tuesday), 12:30 – 2:00pm. In this regard, we would like to invite you to be one of the speakers of this event together with Mr. Clement Camposano, a professor of the Department of History and Mr. Ramon Casiple, respectively. We would really like to
hear your views about the promise of EDSA Revolution and if it has fulfilled this promise in changing the socio-political landscape of the Philippines.
Actually, we have already sent our invitation last Monday sir (via email), and we are hoping to get a positive reply from you. Thank you sir!
Nick on Fri, 22nd Feb 2008 9:49 pm
Raine, care to upload a video of your event on Youtube?
BrianB on Fri, 22nd Feb 2008 9:54 pm
The text from the UST law student is right on target. But, then, the administration forgets that to tolerate corruption absolutely is similar to being slaves. Balik Spanish Regime tayo.
BrianB on Fri, 22nd Feb 2008 9:54 pm
On Missingpoints blog post. Did Chavit win a Senate seat?
UP n student on Fri, 22nd Feb 2008 10:37 pm
Raine:
Here is background music for your symposium:
You say you want a revolution
Well you know
We’d all want to change the world
You tell me that it’s evolution
Well you know
We’d all want to change the world
But when you talk about destruction
Don’t you know you that can count me out
Don’t you know it’s gonna be alright
Don’t you know it’s gonna be alright
Don’t you know it’s gonna be alright
You say you got a real solution
Well you know
We’d all want to see the plan
You ask me for a contribution
Well you know
We’re all doing what we can
vic on Fri, 22nd Feb 2008 10:46 pm
MLQ, we do have a lot of discussions among ourselves over lunch relating to the current events over there and the Guys mostly enjoy the mumbling and fumbling of the Admins Officials, especially the newcomers as they compare to the straight talking Politicians here that one fumbling or serious mistake could mean the end of their political career..altogether it is a new experience for Most…
UP n student on Fri, 22nd Feb 2008 10:49 pm
@Blackshama:
On your comment : Revolts and coups may be plotted but that doesn’t mean it will succeed.
But what may make the difference between success and failure…
Success/failure is measured against the objectives, and it is probably fair to say that Honasan’s objectives is different from the objectives of the Sumilao farmers.
They don’t really teach it much to high school kids, this lesson that “they” may be trying to pick your pocket while they seduce
you. A coup/revolt that is a success for their instigators while a total failure 
for the citizenry.
Raine Subijano on Fri, 22nd Feb 2008 10:57 pm
To Brian: Sure, i’ll try my best to work it out. and we really hope Mr. Quezon could also become our guest speaker for the said event..
ramrod on Fri, 22nd Feb 2008 10:57 pm
hello vic, how is the land of the mounties nowadays?
Raine Subijano on Fri, 22nd Feb 2008 10:58 pm
To UP n student: Thanks for the suggestion! btw, can i know what’s the title of that background song that you propose? Thanks!
ramrod on Fri, 22nd Feb 2008 10:59 pm
raine,
Is that event open to the public?
ramrod on Fri, 22nd Feb 2008 11:04 pm
UP n student on Fri, 22nd Feb 2008 11:04 pm
Raine : Not by Kanya West nor by Ashanti…. the song is Lennon/McCartney – Revolution (lyrics by John Lennon).
Raine Subijano on Fri, 22nd Feb 2008 11:06 pm
To ramrod: Yes, the event would be open to public as well. If you’re interested, just reply right away. Thanks!
ramrod on Fri, 22nd Feb 2008 11:11 pm
raine,
Yes, I’m interested to attend. Do you have a website where I can check out the details like address, etc.?
vic on Fri, 22nd Feb 2008 11:18 pm
ramrod, not much news except that a Labrador retriever was dog-nap after his walker left him tied outside the restaurant for a few minutes. It was returned the next day when the owner offered $15 thousands rewards for its return and the cops charged two adults and two teenagers for thief. No misunderstanding, the alibi was that they found the 3 years old retriever wandering in the park, the cops were not convinced..The RCMPs as usual are standing on Guard..
op3r on Fri, 22nd Feb 2008 11:19 pm
Ill just repost here what I had posted at yugatech’s blog.
Wiretapping Cellular calls is easy and inexpensive by using bearcat scanners. The only problem with it is you can only hear the uplink from the cellphone to the tower and you have to be near by the subject to do it. I mean you can only try to scan one channel and hope you get the right channel emitted by the cellphone of your subject.
But with a right equipment that can be purchased in hongkong (it comes with a laptop running windows) you can listen to the conversation. It is said that it can calculate and zoomed in to the exact channels going in and out from the cellphone to the tower. but you also have to be near the subject to be able to do it.
Disclaimer I havent tried it yet though. It was just demonstrated to me from an engineer who used to work at NTC. Oh it’s depressing when you hear somebody talking to dong i lab yu.
and by the way, I am going to post this comment to my own blog kasi mukhang blog material na sya
and Ill just more info na lang sa blog ko 
ramrod on Fri, 22nd Feb 2008 11:24 pm
vic,
The opposite of here then, still very uncertain. Are we allowed to post our email addresses here or we need to ask via MLQ3?
Raine Subijano on Fri, 22nd Feb 2008 11:24 pm
To ramrod: Sadly, the details of the event has not yet been placed in the university website. But i do have the details of the event in a “multiply” account. Here is the link, btw: http://raineydays.multiply.com/journal/item/41/Edsa_Week_Commemoration_EDSA_Revolution_A_False_Promise_Feb_26th-28th
Just reply right away if you ever have problems accessing the address mentioned.
Raine Subijano on Fri, 22nd Feb 2008 11:27 pm
i apologize if in case posting links is not allowed in this thread..
ramrod on Fri, 22nd Feb 2008 11:32 pm
raine,
Posting links are okay. We do that all the time, its email addresses I’m not sure of.
ramrod on Fri, 22nd Feb 2008 11:34 pm
raine,
I take it that you’re a student at the Univ of Asia and the Pacific? college or postgrad?
missingpoints on Fri, 22nd Feb 2008 11:40 pm
BryanB: Ack! Oo nga. Corrected now.
Raine Subijano on Fri, 22nd Feb 2008 11:41 pm
ramrod: have you seen the link already?.. i posted it yet it says it’s still awaiting for moderation. Yes, i’m currently a student of the university taking up Political Economy.
ramrod on Fri, 22nd Feb 2008 11:46 pm
raine,
Not yet. MLQ3 needs to unblock it or something, perhaps later. Whats the difference between political economy and economy per se? you still talk about gdp, per capita income, imports/exports, etc. right?
ramrod on Fri, 22nd Feb 2008 11:57 pm
The most awaited video! LUCKIEST BITCH
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z1RLD2FNlHo
Raine Subijano on Sat, 23rd Feb 2008 12:01 am
ramrod: the course actually seeks to integrate the realm of politics and economics (as well as other disciplines of study)in the study of the national and global issues that affect us. Basically, it provides the essential political and economical tools for examining change and development brought about by globalization. Yes, we stil do talk about the micro and macroeconomic concepts and integrate it with the political theories and issues of today.
hvrds on Sat, 23rd Feb 2008 12:04 am
The biggest problem the country finds itself in is the mistaken perception which forms the philosophical basis for people who should know better is the mistaken perception that just a corner away from being a first world society.
Philosophy is simply our individual perception of reality.
A third world society perceiving itself to be close to being first world.
The enitre basis for Neri’s oligarchic rants were taken from the Joe Almonte’s thesis of the backwardness of the Philippine economy traced directly to the oligarchy. Their policy solution was a simply insane idea.
Forget macroeconomics and concentrate on the third wave of societal development, the digital revolution. Leapfrog over agro-industrial economic development and exports of human resource as we can import whatever we need in the age of global economic integration. They tragically missed one startegic fact. Macroeconmics (fiscal and monetary policy.)
The last 20 years of the gloabl move to integrate economies was preceeded by the globalization of financial markets. Financial capitalism. However this was contingent on economies having sound and sustainable macroeconomic fundamentals.
That was baqsed on the presumption of having sound state institutions already in place. The last ten years saw crisis after crisis in emerging markets all caused by financial blowouts. The same thing is now happening in the U.S.and Europe to a lesser degree.
Countries who coupled their financial markets with the dollar now have very challenging times ahead.
The countries that had not coupled their financial markets and econmies with the U.S. have been growing like gangbusters.
Added to this the end of the era of easy oil to one of tough oil has put pressures on commodity markets due to the emergence of developing economies with huge domestic markets which in turn is driving food prices higher from demand for food and fuel.
All of a sudden the leap frogging policies of the government togeher with the liberalization of everything to break the hold of the oligarchs is proving to be insane. In effect Neri and Co. wanted Mr. Market to destroy the oligarchic hold on the Philippine Economy.
However they did not realize that Mr. Market is actually a paper tiger and when it gets into trouble will run to Big Daddy. (The State)
All of a sudden S&P who makes their money from the people they rate told the Philippine government – your tax base remains fundamentaly small. The government was also told that they had not been building the physical infrastructure needed to solve the physical bottlenecks of the physical economy.
But the Neri boys were still enamored in the microsector of IT. Hence the attempt to bring the governmentinto the IT age.
Just recently the President had to talk to Vietnam to try to get guarantees that they would continue to reserve a portion of their rice for us. Their economy is growing and so is their consumption. All over Asia consumption of staples are growing.
The Philippines today is the worlds biggest rice importer. Guess what will happen to rice prices in the next few years. There is a move to wean Pinoys from rice to potatoes and camote.
The other genuis who tried the leap frog technique from backward farming to industrialization was a guy named Mao. We have also a leag frogging expert here in the person of Joe Al. He forgot that it was the industrialization process that multiplied food productivity that created a more equitable society. But that required that the state play a strategic role by strengthening fiscal and monetary policies. But that would mean building up the productive capacities to produce sound fiscal and monetary polcies. The basis for that would still be food surplus. The foundation for currency of all currencies. But that is the basis of macroeconmics.
Wow Mali!!!!
Bencard on Sat, 23rd Feb 2008 12:16 am
granting for argument’s sake that gaite tried to dissuade lozada from testifying, isn’t it the consistent position of malacanang for executive officers to resist appearing in the senate, and be abused, disrespected and manipulated by unscrupulous senators “in aid of destabilization”? the experiences of norberto gonzales, camilo sabio, and other cabinet officials do not go unnoticed. i don’t see anything gravely wrong with a co-equal government branch refusing to be a tool for grandstanding by members of another branch. from where i sit, as one lawyer watching the senate proceedings on t.v., i can understand how the “resource persons” from the executive branch could be misused for political “pogi points”.
i said many times and i say it again, truth does not depend on the number of “believers”. 99.9% of the whole philippine population could believe what lozada, joey devenecia, or even neri were saying, but if the three were telling falsehood, they were still not telling the “truth”. it simply means that 99.9% of filipinos are fools.
now that the “hero” lozada has formally filed a complaint for “kidnapping” with the doj (with all the fun-fare and glitz of abs-cbn t.v. and other media outlets), it’s time for the doj to conduct a lie detector test on him, in aid of criminal investigation. there is no reason lozada and his camp would, or could, object to that unless his complaint, and all his previous senate testimony concerning it, are false and an LDT would tend to incriminate him. i hope someone from the office of the doj or anyone from malacanang is reading this.
UP n student on Sat, 23rd Feb 2008 12:33 am
Is this hvrds-comment true? … the leap frogging policies of the government togeher with the liberalization of everything to break the hold of the oligarchs….. I thought that a major complaint (at least by Abe Margallo and cvj against GMA) is that this administration is still working for the interests of the oligarchs (rent-seeking or otherwise).
nash on Sat, 23rd Feb 2008 12:46 am
JOKERS of the Day: Assumptionistas
“Former high school classmates of President Arroyo at Assumption College rallied around her yesterday amid mounting calls for the Chief Executive to resign.
“Some people judge her as yabang (haughty), but she just has neck problems. She has a human side and she is deeply hurt by all this name-calling,†said former classmate and now Tourism Assistant Secretary Cynthia Carrion.”
What neck problem when GMA doesn’t even have a spine?
Mike on Sat, 23rd Feb 2008 12:46 am
Bencard, I thought lie detector test results aren’t admissible in court?
Also, it’s kinda difficult to fool 99.9% of the population–although the admin sure tries.
Bencard on Sat, 23rd Feb 2008 12:58 am
mike, generally, LDT tests may not be admissible in court but they sure can be used by the law enforcement agencies to help in criminal investigation. as you know, the doj is not a court. please read my past comments on this matter in previous threads.
difficult to fool, yes. all i’m saying is that falsehood is falsehood no matter how many people ( or angels) believe it is true. cheers.
ramrod on Sat, 23rd Feb 2008 1:01 am
Gloria’s cabinet, Neri called her “evil”, then Salceda calls her a “bitch” with allies like these she doesn’t need enemies. Whats next?
mang_kiko on Sat, 23rd Feb 2008 1:14 am
Pero si Lozada may subpoena na magtestify sa Senado, at kung sin-o man ang mag dissuade sa kanya pareho na palayasin sa hongkong, maykasam pang “bribe money” ay ma-ari ng commit na ng “councelling an individual to break a lawful order” by constitutionally mandated body at para sa manga legal minds as ito seriosong kasalanan lalo nasa manga opisyal mismo ng gobyerno na nagsumpa na sundin daw ANG “RULE OF LAW”
supremo on Sat, 23rd Feb 2008 1:17 am
The next step is to ask for VP De Castro’s resignation.
supremo on Sat, 23rd Feb 2008 1:21 am
There is a new show show in the US that uses a LDT to determine if a contestant is lying or not. Pretty good show. I just forgot the title.
mang_kiko on Sat, 23rd Feb 2008 1:22 am
at kong a LDT nang DOJ si Lozoda at iyon ang basi nang kanilang kaso dahil sa resulta nang Test, pagdating sa Korte, tanong ng Huwes, sa-an ang Evidesiya? Sabi ni Gonzales, yong resulta nang LD puro kasinuggalingan ang asal nitong si Lozada> Sabi nang Huwes..Ikaw Raul, sa-an mo nakuha yong Lisinsya mo sa Recto?
supremo on Sat, 23rd Feb 2008 1:30 am
‘Fox has announced The Moment of Truth, a new game show that will quiz contestants on personal questions and use a lie detector to determine if they’re telling the truth, will premiere on Wednesday, January 23 at 9PM ET/PT.’
This might be a good show for Kris Aquino. First celebrity contestant is Jun Lozada.
ramrod on Sat, 23rd Feb 2008 1:33 am
â€Let justice be done though heavens fall.†– Haydee Yorac
Personally, I have no qualms with the LDT, but I’m not Lozada’s atty. Would be good to try it also on Abalos, Mike Defensor, and Formoso though…
ramrod on Sat, 23rd Feb 2008 1:40 am
Some things I got from Atty
The Rule on Hearsay and the Statements of Lozada
http://www.senpinglacson.proboards83.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=investigation&thread=1202685698&page=1#1202685698
ramrod on Sat, 23rd Feb 2008 1:41 am
Still another…
Republic of the Phil v Gloria Macapagal Arroyo
http://www.senpinglacson.proboards83.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=investigation&thread=1203511056&page=1#1203511056
Bencard on Sat, 23rd Feb 2008 1:45 am
good idea, supremo, para yon’g wowowee crowd ay magkaroon naman ng basehan sa kani-kanilang paniniwala. total, mukhang mahilig naman sa showbiz itong si lozada, eh.
mang_kiko, para po maintindihan mo, and layunin ng imbestigasion ng doj ay para malaman na maroong ibedensiya ang nagre-reklamo na magpapatunay na WALANG DUDA na may kasalanan ang akusado. kung wala, dismiss ang complaint at hindi na makararating sa korte. ika nga, tapos ang boksing.
mlq3 on Sat, 23rd Feb 2008 1:47 am
re hvrds comments:
have had some interesting talks with various kinds of businessmen. off hand, some things i’ve picked up:
1. to deliver socialized medicine to the poorest of the poor, that is, full and free health care, would cost only 8 billion annually.
2. it is cheaper for hog raisers to import corn from thailand than to bring it in from mindanao. the corn’s cheap and good in mindanao, bringing it to luzon though is less efficient than importing from thailand.
3. filipinos have taken to growing japanese sweet corn when the japanese themselves are crazy over the indigenous variety of white corn grown in mindanao but now hard to find
4. we average about 3-5 tons of rice per hectate when our neighbors produce 10-15 tons per hectare. we are at 1940s yields while the rest of the region is in the 21st century; irri has excellent varieties (high-yeld) but farmers get no support (subsidy) to buy the seeds unlike farmers in the region.
5. massive epidemics in pork growers and government veterinary services aren’t doing anything. problem made worse by unfettered smuggling/importation of hogs, etc.
6. rice cartels smuggling like crazy, farmers hit all the more. government for political reasons keeps prices low which means farming a losing proposition. a chinese entrepreneur has taken to growing a very fine quality rice and selling it at a premium locally, has encouraged contract growers.
7. almost unanimously businessmen complain that there are many jobs that remain unfilled because qualified people simply aren’t available (welder shortage; vet shortage; mid-level manager shortage, etc.)
cvj on Sat, 23rd Feb 2008 1:48 am
UPn, it appears that there is a consensus across the political spectrum in the Philippines (from Jo Almonte on the Right to Joma Sison on the extreme Left, and those in between) that the Oligarchic elite has been the primary obstacle to our economic development.
Where they disagree is on the manner of breaking the stranglehold of the oligarchy, with technocrats like Neri favoring a market-oriented approach (at the expense of our Institutions). Neri and company thought that they can outflank the oligarchy, but as the NBN-ZTE deal shows, they were the ones who became its puppets since Gloria Arroyo and the FG took the side of the oligarchs and their political allies. I suppose a lot of that has to do with her illegitimate ascendancy in 2004 which renders Gloria beholden to those who helped her.
mlq3 on Sat, 23rd Feb 2008 1:50 am
bencard, please review the sc decision on executive privilege. it’s quite favorable to the executive branch. at no time did gaite or anyone from cabinet testify they wanted to invoke privilege, which the court said is the president’s to invoke. at no time did the cabinet or other admin officials say they wanted to invoke exec. priv. for lozada, they simply stated they wanted to foil the senate’s making him testify, as legally speaking, they knew they had no grounds to refuse the senate’s summons.
ramrod on Sat, 23rd Feb 2008 1:56 am
cvj,
Its really tempting to go against these so called Oligarchs, but some unfortunately we do a lot of business through them…so this is an area where I inhibit myself.
I remember you talking about this issue last year pa, you didn’t see Neri’s notes per chance?
supremo on Sat, 23rd Feb 2008 2:04 am
mlq3,
‘2. it is cheaper for hog raisers to import corn from thailand than to bring it in from mindanao. the corn’s cheap and good in mindanao, bringing it to luzon though is less efficient than importing from thailand.’
Why not build hog farms in Mindanao? Build a meat processing plant beside the farm and then ship the frozen pork to Luzon.
ramrod on Sat, 23rd Feb 2008 2:09 am
supremo,
There was a hog farm project in Mindanao – remember the Sumilao issue? SMC has an advanced facility in Vietnam and it was the plan to set up something similar in Cagayan. I hope they found a middle ground with that one.
With corn production, we actually have good technology backing us up in terms of variety and yield (Monsanto, etc.) but the weakness is in post harvest facilities and of course transport.
cvj on Sat, 23rd Feb 2008 2:13 am
Ramrod, unfortunately i haven’t seen Neri’s notes. As Abe Margallo suggested, the ideal would be a Bayanihan Pact where the oligarchs use their resources in the service of the common good as described here:
http://www.redsherring.blogspot.com/2007/11/in-service-of-common-good.html
I have this dream that Mar Roxas and Noynoy Aquino, both descendants of oligarchic families, would take the lead in implementing such a pact, if only to atone for the sins of their fathers (or grandfathers). That would allow their class a soft landing by bridging the social divide and unleash the productive capacities of the rest.
cvj on Sat, 23rd Feb 2008 2:13 am
Ramrod, unfortunately i haven’t seen Neri’s notes. As Abe Margallo suggested, the ideal would be a Bayanihan Pact where the oligarchs use their resources in the service of the common good as described here:
http://www.redsherring.blogspot.com/2007/11/in-service-of-common-good.html
I have this dream that Mar Roxas and Noynoy Aquino, both descendants of oligarchic families, would take the lead in implementing such a pact, if only to atone for the sins of their fathers (or grandfathers). That would allow their class a soft landing by bridging the social divide and unleash the productive capacities of the rest.
DuckVader on Sat, 23rd Feb 2008 2:18 am
“I have this dream that Mar Roxas and Noynoy Aquino, both descendants of oligarchic families, would take the lead in implementing such a pact, if only to atone for the sins of their fathers (or grandfathers). That would allow their class a soft landing by bridging the social divide and unleash the productive capacities of the rest.”
It would also probably cause their families to hate them. For both reasons, I don’t think it will happen. What we need is somebody from outside the oligarchy to confront them with political power that even they cannot buy off. And to basically give them an ultimatum. That is the only language they will understand. Marcos had that chance, but flubbed it big time.
mlq3 on Sat, 23rd Feb 2008 2:24 am
supremo, i dunno, can only guess from what i was told that the shipping’s the expensive part. i heard something similar when i was in bacolod, it’s cheaper to ship something from singapore than to get it from manila.
supremo on Sat, 23rd Feb 2008 2:26 am
ramrod,
‘but the weakness is in post harvest facilities and of course transport.’
Then build the hog farms as close as possible to the corn fields. It’s all about integration.
BrianB on Sat, 23rd Feb 2008 2:28 am
Raine, I’m really hoping Mr. Quezon would miss the symposium because of a certain massive rally happening on the other side of Ortigas Center.
Bencard on Sat, 23rd Feb 2008 2:28 am
mlq3, that might very well be, but if officials in the executive branch, from atienza to gaite (and private citizen mike defensor) were misled by lozada that he did not want to testify and was afraid to do so, as they claim he told them, then their efforts to “help” him would be understandable in a political context, if not legal. depending on the true nature of the “help” they extended to lozada, they may or may not be legally liable, e.g., if they did it to ensure the personal safety of lozada who allegedly told them that he was afraid for his life.
again, an LDT test to determine whether lozada is telling the truth concerning his alleged “kidnapping”, and “bribery” will go a long way towards clearing the air, politically as well as legally.
ramrod on Sat, 23rd Feb 2008 2:28 am
Duckvader,
Not necessarily. With the obvious inefficiency of our agricultural sector margins must be very low anyway. The rest of the world has gone into sustainability programs, efficiency, environmental and social responsibility, and it has been proven that businesses run this way are more profitable in the long run. These old Oligarchic families just need to upgrade their business policies.
supremo on Sat, 23rd Feb 2008 2:35 am
mlq3,
Got that.
Why is everything expensive over there compared to the rest of the region? I can call someone in Singapore for 3 cents a minute compared to 13 cents to the Philippines. It must be the golden cable that PLDT uses to connect the Philippines to the rest of the world.
supremo on Sat, 23rd Feb 2008 2:39 am
bencard,
Would you be available to ask the questions if Lozada agrees to a LDT?
ramrod on Sat, 23rd Feb 2008 2:41 am
mlq3/supremo,
Transport or shipping is extremely vital to agricultural products as it really affects the cost structure. Thats why I was excited during that SONA where Farm-to-Market infrastructures were mentioned, seriously taken – its a very big step.
Just look at the fresh fruit business in Davao, Polomolok, and Bukidnon, they have very efficient systems of farming, world class post harvest facilities (complete with cold storage), even the farm to market transport are climate controlled right down to the port. Of course, their use of high burst threshold packaging material made from the best pulp in Europe 90% virgin fibre assures them that the products will reach the intended destinations in the Middle East, Japan, Europe, and North America in the best market value conditions.
(the last part was plugging, sorry, hehehe).
BrianB on Sat, 23rd Feb 2008 2:44 am
Guys, I can’t help but think that going back to the Hello Garci as the biggest object in the goody basket with NBN also thrown in there would make a more justified revolt.
UP n student on Sat, 23rd Feb 2008 2:46 am
cvj: I know you have mentioned it several times, this :
You never articulated it — why does the child inherit the sin of the father? Does this inheritance-bit go both ways — does the child automatically inherit the beatitudes that the father has earned?
So is it that you owe the world, or does the world owe you because of your father and your father’s father?
BrianB on Sat, 23rd Feb 2008 2:47 am
UP n, you’re kidding right? How about the influence that comes with the name, the money, all coming from the original sin?
ramrod on Sat, 23rd Feb 2008 2:49 am
BrianB,
I posted a link (1:41). Its from a lawyer based in the US. Apparently in 1985 in Wisconsin, there was a “dagdag bawas” incident with fictitious precincts and fake ballots – the whole caboodle. The election results can be nullified or something. Goes to show dagdag bawas is not a monopoly of the Philippines.
Bencard on Sat, 23rd Feb 2008 2:51 am
supremo, i think the doj, or his assigned deputies (prosecutors), would be asking the questions through an expert LDT scientist or technician, usually with psychology background. if i could, i have a few questions to ask, myself.
mlq3 on Sat, 23rd Feb 2008 2:52 am
supremo, it’s the things that are driving people, even some big businessmen, nuts. from some of them i understand that prior to the even timid liberalization under ramos they were freaking out but then saw that they could not only compete, but could flourish in open competition. for others, though, perish the thought. so they oppose open skies (pal), further opening up telecoms (the top three players), properly bidding out the operation of ports (you know who), and arrange wiping out their debts to government (meralco), and what legitimate businesses face is state-sanctioned smuggling and cartel building (everything from cement, to fuel, to agricultural goods, etc.). the combination of official corruption and simple inefficiency is corrosive: yields are low, which justifies importation, which opens up avenues for smuggling, etc. what manufacturing exists is wiped out and the productive at home jobs evaporate, further feeding the human export machine. think of the industries we have that have fallen by the wayside, from sugar to coconut. some months ago i met someone from mindanao who told me a horrifying story of how the seaweed farming industry in his province has collapsed from a combination of over-taxation by rapacious local governments, cheating by competitors which alienates foreign customers, and the aggressive pirating of local seaweed farmers by indonesia, who pay filipinos to go there set up farms, give them cheap and easy credit, and so, indonesia has grabbed the market from the philippines. rinse, lather, and repeat.
ramrod on Sat, 23rd Feb 2008 2:53 am
“The gods visit the sins of the fathers upon the children.” – Euripides
UPnStude,
Unfortunately it goes one way only…
supremo on Sat, 23rd Feb 2008 2:54 am
ramrod,
So it’s been done in Davao. Good! Making the technology available to everyone is the next step. It will get cheap soon enough.
ramrod on Sat, 23rd Feb 2008 3:02 am
supremo,
Sadly, MLQ3 is right re competitiveness of local industries. If we look around us and compare how they are done in the Davao plantations you’ll think you went to a different country, much like going into Subic before during Dick’s time.
How can competitive business thrive in an uneven playing field? Just look at our own paper mills, they are literally dying, imports are cheaper.
UP n student on Sat, 23rd Feb 2008 3:03 am
supremo: It is a slightly easier problem to analyze with regards telephone calls. That you can call someone in Singapore for 3 cents a minute compared to 13 cents to the Philippines is not with cables nor routers and switches, it is with the billing and the INFAMOUS TAX-COLLECTOR. Long-distance service is a cash-cow to the Philippine treasury. Philippines has higher/Singapore has lower higher tax rate on the calls.
ramrod on Sat, 23rd Feb 2008 3:04 am
Manolo,
So I take it that Shemberg, a big name in the carageenan industry is in a challenging situations right now?
ramrod on Sat, 23rd Feb 2008 3:13 am
“some months ago i met someone from mindanao who told me a horrifying story of how the seaweed farming industry in his province has collapsed” – mlq3
So we lost the seaweed industry also? Good thing the biggest market is down – USA, maybe not so big a gain for Indonesia but a loss for us nonetheless.
cvj on Sat, 23rd Feb 2008 3:17 am
Just to clarify, we’re talking about historic and/or social sins, not individual crimes.
In the case of the Philippine Oligarchy, the injustice of inequality is an ongoing one, stretching back from the time of the Philippine revolution up to the present. In this sense, the child is committing the same sin as the father.
That being said, even in the case where the child has taken no part in his father’s sins which were committed sometime back, there is still an obligation to ask for forgiveness and atonement. I suppose this is so because we are connected to the past and to each other. This is also an acknowldgement of the reality of path dependence in which yesterday’s actions are a factor in shaping today’s outcomes. You cannot change what happened but you can at least apologize or provide compensation. An example of this is the Australian government’s recent apology to the Aborigines for the latter’s forcible assimilation a few decades back.
supremo on Sat, 23rd Feb 2008 3:17 am
‘Ramos joined President Gloria Macapagal-Arroyo at a wreath-laying ceremony at the Libingan ng mga Bayani in Makati City, which kicked off the commemoration of the four-day People Power revolt in 1986 that toppled Ferdinand Marcos’ dictatorship and swept Corazon Aquino to the presidency.
“It is customary nowadays to denigrate or minimize the importance of the Edsa events–perhaps because the greed, the apathy and the corruption we brought down during those days are once again making themselves felt,” said Ramos, a key player in Edsa I.’
The former President is trying to be relevant again. Is the guy a masochist or just plain KSP?
Why is the celebration at the Libingan? That monument has nothing to do with EDSA 1. Is it because the monument is inside an Army camp?
supremo on Sat, 23rd Feb 2008 3:27 am
cvj,
What if the child did not actually benefited from or inherited the fruits of the sin?
ramrod on Sat, 23rd Feb 2008 3:30 am
supremo,
Gloria must have something on Ramos, or maybe he’s getting close enough to convince her to resign? Or maybe Gloria knows the saying “keep your friends close and your enemies closer?”
ramrod on Sat, 23rd Feb 2008 3:31 am
“What if the child did not actually benefited from or inherited the fruits of the sin?” – supremo
Then there is no problem, the child’s father was righteous.
mlq3 on Sat, 23rd Feb 2008 3:34 am
ramrod, i don’t know where i put my notes, they were scribbled on a folder and well, i’m constantly trying to put order into chaos. what i recall was that the person was talking of their province and in the past year (06 to 07) there was a big drop in the players, from 24 to 6, i believe.
cvj on Sat, 23rd Feb 2008 3:38 am
Supremo, you mean financially? If Mar Roxas or Noynoy Aquino somehow became destitute then i suppose that absolves them.
There are some social sins though where the fruits are not financial, or there are no fruits at all. Some are simply attached to one’s belonging to a collective identity. Aside from the example i cited above, another example is that of the Turkish genocide of the Armenians or the Japanese atrocities against the Chinese in Nanking.
UP n student on Sat, 23rd Feb 2008 3:39 am
Ramrod: supremo’s case is where the father (or grandfather) was a thieving sinner but “..the child did not actually benefit from or inherited the fruits of the sin.”
Is ramrod’s scenario an impossibility?
mlq3 on Sat, 23rd Feb 2008 3:40 am
cjv, you advocate the concept of collective guilt?
cvj on Sat, 23rd Feb 2008 3:41 am
mlq3, yes as far as social and historic injustices are concerned.
UP n student on Sat, 23rd Feb 2008 3:53 am
cvj: Here is a live question. [ I ask you, because my impression of you has solidified --- that you are irrationally vengeful.]
Erap has been found guilty of plunder, pardoned, AND the court-system has identified the monetary remedies. PLUS, the court-system says that Erap keeps a gazillion-amount of money (okays, simply in the millions, not in the billions).
So is Erap’s grandchildren now absolved (as of this particular moment in time)?
ramrod on Sat, 23rd Feb 2008 3:56 am
“what i recall was that the person was talking of their province and in the past year (06 to 07) there was a big drop in the players, from 24 to 6, i believe.” – mlq3
If Indonesia was able to pirate the seaweed farmers, the industry got hit big time! A few years back the Philippines dominated the carageenan market worldwide, it was one of our cash cows really. Unfortunately this industry is heavily dependent on the raw material – seaweed. Too bad we didn’t take care of this…
Excerpt from wikipedia :
“The largest producer is the Philippines, where cultivated seaweed produces about 80% of the world supply. The most commonly used are Cottonii (Kappaphycus alvarezii, K.striatum) and Spinosum (Eucheuma denticulatum), which together provide about three quarters of the World production. These grow at sea level down to about 2 metres. The seaweed is normally grown on nylon lines strung between bamboo floats and harvested after three months or so when each plant weighs around 1 kg.”
BrianB on Sat, 23rd Feb 2008 3:56 am
YES. Unfortunately, it was not the court but the President who “annulled” his crime.
supremo on Sat, 23rd Feb 2008 4:01 am
cvj,
‘you mean financially?’
I agree with you on some points. What if the child only uses the family name and nothing else?
ramrod on Sat, 23rd Feb 2008 4:06 am
MLQ3,
So it is possible that we could be in a nightmare scenario like weakening local manufacturing industries, increasing dependence on imports (must check Banco Central stats). We may not feel it all along because of the cushioning effect of dollar remittances. But where exactly is this “economic activity” some people are talking about?
UP n student on Sat, 23rd Feb 2008 4:06 am
BrianB : you’re not cvj, right… you just responded “YES” to the question “Are Erap’s grandchildren absolved?” I posed?
—-
cvj is a character, but should cvj be running for president or even congressman and anyone running against cvj asks me for a donation, my wallet will open up.
collective guilt? Damn shit!!!
Today’s sons of daughters of sons of Jews-the-killer-of-Jesus stay away from cvj. cvj, to me, is one who holds the 2050-generation of Americans — sons of sons of daughters of sons of Americans born after the Treaty of Paris guilty for what has happened to the Philippines. [I wonder about Japanese after WW2, too?]
supremo on Sat, 23rd Feb 2008 4:08 am
ramrod,
“keep your friends close and your enemies closer?â€
This is why The Godfather is in my movie collection.
DevilsAdvc8 on Sat, 23rd Feb 2008 4:16 am
cartels, oligarchs, smuggling kingpins…
perfect combination to kill off industries one by one
of course the govt is helping too. heavy taxation of legitimate businesses while the above-mentioned three pick off these players one by one. mabuti sana kung naibabalik sa mabuti yung taxes no? like subsidies, infrastructure…
e puro SONA lang ang pangarap ni GMA eh! ilang bilyon ba kelangan para matustusan kahit isang taong subsidy para sa agrikultura?
ay oo nga pala, kahit i-subsidize, bago pa makarating sa beneficiary pinaghati-hatian na ng DA officials. mula sa head hangang sa pinakahuling hahawak ng pera. ganon rin nangyayari sa DOH di ba? o kahit sa alinmang ahensya ng pamahalaan. fota. kulang na nga ang budget, kinukupitan pa.
we really need to have a much faster way to make congressmen accountable w/o going thru impeachment. we also need a way to fire appointed officials that doesn’t require the permission of the executive.
hvrds on Sat, 23rd Feb 2008 4:18 am
Question why does S. Korea, Taiwan, Japan, Germany, France and in an indirect manner the U.S. coddle their oligarchy.
Why does everyone want to use the term competitiveness when that is a totally wrong concept and term to use. The term to use to distinguish economies is productivity. How far up the ladder of mechanization and technological advancement is applied in both the physical (productive) and non-physical (non-productive) sectors of the economy. mechanization and technology multiplied productivity of labor and created a vast new division of labor to take up the increased production and surplus.
Competition is for business and not economies. Why does the corn farmer in the U.S. get over 50 times the yield off his crop compared to his ancestors who use to get 4-5 times the yield on seeds planted.
They call it the mechanization and the use of technology not only on the farms but the creation of an entire infrastructure for the movement of goods and services. Preservatives, refrigeration and the use today of satellites and GSP positioning and infra red scanning of farms to balance the use of fertilizers and water. Who put those satellites into space in the U.S. The state. Who provided the impetus for the advances in communication – the state.
The stupid idea that competition brought about the cheap cost of communication is wrong. Cellular technology and the digital revolution went hand in hand with satellite based communication. Remove that from the equation and the high cost of land lines which is limited in terms of productivity.
Who created the massive irrigation projects in the U.S. The state. Who created the interstate system of transportation? The state. You expect the Lopezes to do it in the Philippines.
Why is the cost of flying cheaper than it was 20 – 30 years ago in real terms. Productivity. The invention of new and lighter steel alloys made it possible to build the jumbo jets ( more passengers per plane)and enable jets to fly higher and with more efficient fuel burning engines as there is less wind resistance at higher altitudes.
So the older planes had to be retired faster and there grew a huge market in cheaper airlines as surplus capital enabled financial companies to become the largest owners of airplanes and the market for leasing surplus jets became big business. GE Capital and AIG are the biggest lessors of planes to airlines. All guaranteed by the U.S. Export and Import Bank for foreign lessees.
Financial capitalism is simply the buying and selling of different asset classes. All made possible by the maturing of industrial economies. But they are derived from the physical economy of not only one country today but the integration of economies through transnationals and multinationals. (Here in the Philippines the plantation economy is still the model.)Dole -Del Monte.
Why did San Miguel open up breweries in Asia. Their market in the Philippines is already saturated. Why don’t they go into the U.S. or Japan or Europe. They know that they are not productive enough and would be slaughtered by the big giants who are almost fully automated right down to the retail end of the supply chain.
The oligarchy of which Big Mike and GMA belong to is akin still to the the backward oligarchs during the time of Machiavelli in Venice.
The problem for the left here is there is no proletariat. So how can they have a proletarian revolution. Just take a look at the pathetic small middle class. All wanting to live the life of a heredero or heredera.
The rest are abroad as immigrants and the would be proletariat are the contract workers.
No wonder ‘generation me’ in the Philippines is totally confused between Gretchen Barreto, Ruffa, Kris and Boy Abunda.
supremo on Sat, 23rd Feb 2008 4:25 am
hvrds,
Amen to that!
DevilsAdvc8 on Sat, 23rd Feb 2008 4:27 am
UpN, the sins of parents don’t pass on to the children. of course. but when they take on that mantle, accept that inheritance, use those things gained by their parents through other’s blood – then, that is when they inherit their parent’s sins. when they take their parent’s legacies and change nothing in the way their families do business. now do you understand why they have to accept responsibility for that? it became their sin the moment they ran the business/inheritance the same way.
comprende?
though cvj may be taking it too far if he believes in collective guilt. rido thrives bec of that. now how do you break that?
it’s enough for me if the kids breakaway from the sins made by their parents. paid contrition to those their parents have trespassed.
now let’s see if the aquinos and roxas have done that…
ramrod on Sat, 23rd Feb 2008 4:31 am
HRVDS,
Of course we need to use COMPETITIVENESS where it is appropriate, we say GLOBAL COMPETITIVENESS not Global Productivity to articulate quality policies right?
And its also tempting to surmise that we could probably improve productivity that results from efficiency of automation if we can afford the cost of efficient large scale infrastructure investments. If of course, we learn how to allocate resources properly and transparently.
ramrod on Sat, 23rd Feb 2008 4:37 am
devils,
I couldn’t have said it any better.
BrianB on Sat, 23rd Feb 2008 4:41 am
UP n, I think CVJ has already explained about individual crime vs. the burden of inherited wealth and inherited position. If, for example, you come from an usurper family and currently find yourself ruling a country as king then, logically, you are living life with the proverbial Damocles sword. Same thing with stolen land and ill-gotten wealth. Money stolen remains money stolen even after the passing away of the thief.
ramrod on Sat, 23rd Feb 2008 4:41 am
Come to think of it, did Cory Aquino apologize to the families of the Mendiola Massacre or the victims of injustice in their hacienda-whats-its-name was?
ramrod on Sat, 23rd Feb 2008 4:46 am
HRVDS,
I hope you’re still awake. So given all these FAVORABLE economic indicators Gloria’s economists are talking about GDP growth, foreign investments, etc., how come the Pinoys are still in dire straits?
Where’s all this economic activity everybody’s talking about? Why can’t the common barbero feel it?
BrianB on Sat, 23rd Feb 2008 4:53 am
“cjv, you advocate the concept of collective guilt?”
Manolo, OK. CVJ’s opinion verge dangerously to the Utopian, but his is an important point. A nation like Germany, which survived a crime of superhuman proportions, have in their identity an embedded version of that crime. In today’s laws (jurisprudence, really), crimes like murder are charged against individuals not cultures. You quoted Hegel some time ago. There is such a thing as the continuity of the historical identity. The characteristic of this continuity is obvious: Germany uses the German language, lives i German architecture, read German literature, prays like Germans used to pray. So if these positive or neutral traits are passed, why not the negative ones? To be fair, they can unlearn such cultural traits but is it ethical to simply unlearn the holocaust?
BrianB on Sat, 23rd Feb 2008 4:58 am
that’s verging toward…
supremo on Sat, 23rd Feb 2008 5:13 am
ramrod,
‘Why can’t the common barbero feel it?’
Because trickle down economy does not work in the Philippines. Greedy corporations get in the way.
A typical 40 year old American professional living in Florida
Salary – $6K per month Net
Mortgage- $1500 per month
Auto loan – $300 per month
The guy still has $4200 left for other things.
Compare that to a 40 year old Filipino professional and you will know that there is really something wrong.
UP n student on Sat, 23rd Feb 2008 5:13 am
DevilAdv8 and all: This sentence the sins of parents don’t pass on to the children. of course. is actually not an “of course” for a number of folks. Just go to the Bible and you’ll find “death to the firstborn” or even to the all-born because of the sins or whatever-characteristics of the father. I will not assume that because DevilAdv8 says “…don’t pass on… of course”, that there is not someone who says “..sin does pass on… of course”.
As for BrianB’s setence…. I will simply take BrianB’s position as BrianB’s, not as cvj’s. I just want to point out that this sentence “Money stolen remains money stolen even after the passing away of the thief.” is dramatically different from “son..guilty of sin of the father”. The focus is on the money and has no mention of son nor daughter.
UP n student on Sat, 23rd Feb 2008 5:20 am
When the father sins, the father sins.
The children — innocent until proven guilty.
When the child sins, the child sins. The father — innocent until proven guilty.
When the child sins and the father sins, then the child has sinned and the father has sinned. But innocent the generation to be born 30-years later after the sinning.
BrianB on Sat, 23rd Feb 2008 5:35 am
UP n, the money is what makes the son or daughter wealthy like Noynoy and Mar Roxas. It practically made their career.
hvrds on Sat, 23rd Feb 2008 5:37 am
Does the country compete like the Coca Cola corporation? How does the Philippines compete against the Dole corporation and Del Monte corporation. How does a tenant farmer in the Philippines compete with his counterpart in China and Vietnam. They have almost no tenant farmers. Most of the tenants farmer’s harvest goes to his landlord and his creditors.
Is the Philippine economy growing . Yes. Is it growing across the board like a fine tuned integrated mechanism?
Nope. Is it simply growing Yes. The robust growth sectors – Finance, communications, utilities, BPO, Real estate and mining. The rest simply are in the going no where mode.
All the sectors indirectly subsidized by the State. Tax incentives and tax holidays. In spite of the so called robust growth the state is having a tough time collecting taxes. Most of the sectors are tax exempt or do not have incomes sufficient to pay taxes. – agriculture.
OFW’s do not pay income taxes.
Please note that the country has always had a deficit in trade in goods and services, capital movement and has a surplus in overseas labor income. The deficit in capital movement means that we do not earn enough from residents investment abroad to compensate for foreign profits from their investments in the Philippines. Residents investment abroad is rarely remitted home.
The one item that makes the difference is OFW income as opposed for expat incomes earned in the Philippines and sent home.
We still cannot pay our way in the world from domestic incomes. So how can Philippine business compete in the world economy when we are deficit dependent on them. If their goods are cheaper then it simply means they are more productive than us.
Pero talo sila sa Pinay. I am diehard fan of Pinays. Gretchen, Ruffa, Kris and Boy Abunda excluded.
BrianB on Sat, 23rd Feb 2008 5:47 am
UP n. I assure you i am not CVJ though I’ve been noticing lately that our opinions match almost perfectly. have you taken that political quiz he linked here?
nash on Sat, 23rd Feb 2008 5:49 am
“No wonder ‘generation me’ in the Philippines is totally confused between Gretchen Barreto, Ruffa, Kris and Boy Abunda.”
Gretchen is the mistress, Ruffa is a battered wife, Boy Abunda is the flaming queen with bad fashion sense (because he uses an imaginary mirror).
Got that?
UP n student on Sat, 23rd Feb 2008 6:16 am
BrianB: I sensed that you were not cvj when you said “YES. Unfortunately, it was not the court but the President who “annulled†his crime.”
Read again cvj’s blogposts and you’ll see reference to “…children of the sinner-father to be destitute” or “…children of the sinner-father to make amends”; qualifications that you did not add to your “YES”.
—–
Anyways… different folks, different strokes.
And your last blog post/question is “not cvj”. 80% of the time, cvj will make a precise refer-back to where to find the politican quiz you mentioned. If this is a quiz that puts a person on an 2-dimensional scale (to see if one is closer to Gautama Buddha versus Richard Nixon) I did take that test.
rego on Sat, 23rd Feb 2008 6:44 am
Bencard,
I agree so much with LDT test. But Im very much concern on wether how either side will accept the results though.
rego on Sat, 23rd Feb 2008 6:47 am
Regardless I woudl still love the LDT test done.
Mandaragat on Sat, 23rd Feb 2008 6:49 am
If anyone or anygroup who would facilitate genuine change to the current dysfunchtional system, I will support it.
Even if “revolution” is necessary.
Mita on Sat, 23rd Feb 2008 7:10 am
the problem with the political oligarchy still goes back to the voters. your ordinary Pinoy voter will still elect familiar names, or, the politicians with the machinery whom they regard as “padrinos”, into office. that is what they are used to doing. unless and until philippine voters junk this mindset, be more cognizant of their power, and learn to decide independent of outside influences, the political landscape will not change.
Philippine society still operates on a class system. A large majority of our people think they only belong to the lowest class and that’s where they choose to stay, looking up to their anointed padrinos for assistance. I don’t understand this way of thinking, but I’ve come across it enough to recognize its destructive force on society.
And perhaps this is the reason the upper classes can get away with murder here, literally.
The Ca t on Sat, 23rd Feb 2008 7:16 am
M
Not even a one bedroom condo would have this mortgage. I am sure with that kind of income, he will be getting a detached three bedroom in an upscale residential which mortgage may run as high as 3,000 to 4,000 a month.
rego on Sat, 23rd Feb 2008 8:35 am
I ve been thinking of this trickle down econmy in Florida or in the US as awhole everytime I see homeless people everytime I ride the subway. The numerous house for sale (near bank forcelosure, I guess) on my way to project site. The desperate job applicants everytime I advertise for an job opening for helper and laborers.
Why even when you listen to the campaign speeches of Obama, Clinton, and Mc Cain, poverty in the US is one of teh issues being tackled.
So every country has its own problem about poverty, corruption and trickle down economy.The thing is not all US resident and citizens are professionals . But solution to these problems are being discussed with out demanding the president to resign or even without overthrowing the current administration.
DevilsAdvc8 on Sat, 23rd Feb 2008 8:43 am
rego, any idea who might administer the test so that both sides can agree results will not be doctored?
nash, you forgot kris. the run-away mouth.
UpN, i agree with you. i used ‘of course’ as my personal opinion. meaning, for me, it comes naturally to think that each person’s sins cannot be passed on to others.
unless others willingly commit those same sins. by then, the sin becomes theirs.
hvrds, that would be a double whammy if they did. OFWs are already paying taxes to their host countries, it’d be mercenary to tax them more!
if you want to tax someone, we can tax those who engage in capital flight. tax them usuriously.
rego on Sat, 23rd Feb 2008 8:50 am
And yet another open letter came out. This time from the group of Ateneo Economist. Last week it was the Ex Cabinet secretaries. Is this becoming a fad now? At talga bang kailangan eempasize that they are talag ateneo, la salle, UP or Universiy of Asia and Pacific . Ex Cabinet secretary? when are we going to have aleete from Baranggay so and so. mmmmm Elitist Oligarchy kaya?
And Im having a feeling that these letters just dont have that impact as the Bong Austero letter. That despite the fact that that letter doesn’t have an Ateneo , UP La salle or University of Asia and Pacific on its headings.
It was simply signed as SC Austero and nobody know him at at all.
Effective commucation kay ang problema o sadayang elitista lang dating mga leter na eto at di ang masa o kahit yung middle class.?
BrianB on Sat, 23rd Feb 2008 8:53 am
rego, the U.S. society and overall culture is behind Europe by several decades. No universal welfare, relatively low taxes. Social democracy is the future for all wealthy nations. The US has not change since independence, although it has become the wealthest and most powerful nation on earth. MacCain will win.
Kabayan on Sat, 23rd Feb 2008 9:28 am
The 0.1% can go to Spratleys
ace on Sat, 23rd Feb 2008 10:18 am
The Bible verses below might help settle the issue:
The Legal Issue (UP n student’s position)
2 Kings 14:6
… The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, nor the children be put to death for the fathers; but every man shall be put to death for his own sin.
The Moral Issue (cvj’s position)
1 Kings 20:34
“I will return the cities my father took from your father,” Ben-Hadad offered. “You may set up your own market areas in Damascus, as my father did in Samaria.”
Luke 19:8
And Zacchaeus stood, and said unto the Lord; Behold, Lord, the half of my goods I give to the poor; and if I have taken any thing from any man by false accusation, I restore him fourfold.
vic on Sat, 23rd Feb 2008 10:24 am
The House Ethics Committee (same as the senate committee) investigating allegations of former PM Brian Mulroney Lobbying works as alleged by an accused German businessman is about to slap the Him with contempt if he fails to submit papers asked for one more day grace period.
Comparing the hearings, which may results only to legislation in regards to how long the Politicians should be out of Office before they can engage in Private works with regards to government lobbying and contracts, they were quite non-confrontational and even though there were hints of Partisanship, it was very tamed compare to the Grandstanding of the Senators in their conduct.
Also, a Public Inquiry to be headed by the President of the University of Waterloo is forthcoming to dig more and although the Government had already paid the former PM $2 million in his Lawsuit for defamation (out of court) when it accused him that he accepted cash from the German lobbyist Two Days before vacating the office of the Prime Minister, the matter was not that Clear Yet.
The former PM insisted that he did the lobbying works after quitting. Another case of money in the Envelope. Although it was recorded properly for accounting and income tax purposes.
ace on Sat, 23rd Feb 2008 10:33 am
Arroyo: I learned about ZTE mess on eve of signing deal
“President Gloria Macapagal Arroyo on Saturday said she learned that something was wrong about the Philippine government’s $329.48-million National Broadband Network project with China’s Zhong Xing Telecommunications Equipment (ZTE) Corp the night before she witnessed the signing of the NBN-ZTE contract.
Mrs Arroyo told radio dzRH that the day before she witnessed the signing of the NBN-ZTE contract on April 21, 2007 in Boao, China, she was advised about the supposed irregularities in the project. However, she said she could not readily terminate the deal that would be funded through a loan from the Chinese government.
“Sumbong sa akin the night before signing of the supply contract, that was one of many signings. (Pero) paano mo i-cancel the night before, may ibang bansa kang kausap (Someone told me about it the night before the signing of the supply contract. That was one of many signings. But how can you cancel a deal the night before, when you are dealing with a foreign country)?” she said.
Mrs Arroyo, however, did not say who told her about the irregularities, and what were these all about.”- GMANews 02/23/2008 | 08:21 AM
Kabayan on Sat, 23rd Feb 2008 10:37 am
Time and again I see this word “grandstanding” and “Senate” when there are critical investigations in the Philippines. Sometimes I wonder why some people do not see the “corruption”, “relatives” and “highest position of the land” as well. Other related words are “persistent lies”, “cover-ups”, “non-accountability”, “E.O. 464″, and “non-appearance” as well. Go figure.
“Biktima: Pare ninakaw mo ang manok ko kitang kita ng marami
Magnanakaw: Hindi, sinungaling ang marami nakakita, eh bakit hindi mo itanong sa biyenan kong kakutsaba … eheste … hari ng Dept of Injustice
Biktima: Hindi, itanong na lang natin sa konseho para maimbistegahan
Magnanakaw: A hindi pwede, bawal ako magpakita doon
Biktima: Bakit
Magnanakaw: E.O. 464
Biktima: Sinong nagsabi
Magnanakaw: Nanay kong Reyna”
JMCastro on Sat, 23rd Feb 2008 10:52 am
Summarizing the government response so far:
1. threats of sedition to protests against the government;
2. continuing enforcement of EO 464 invoking executive privilege and preventing Senate testimonies of those involved in the NBN deal (cabinet secretaries in the NEDA-ICC);
3. threats of tax/DOJ legal action against MBC and Jun Lozada, respectively;
4. the use of law enforcement and even some ex-military men to prevent Lozada’s testimony;
5. threats of firing of government officials attending the La Salle mass.
Legal (among others) threats are being leveled against every form of opposition that the GMA administration is facing. Are we at a point when civil disobedience, peaceful but active refusal of specific demands and commands of government, is increasingly becoming the only recourse?
I think that the GMA administration will have to find the means to work with the opposition, some sort of common ground where cooperation in politics can be achieved. Not only with UNO, but with civil society groups, and even the Left. Otherwise, the players in this political situation will increasingly be pushed towards extremist positions.
cvj on Sat, 23rd Feb 2008 11:29 am
UPn (at 3:53am), i agree with Brianb’s clarification that it was not the court system that “annulled” his crime.
I don’t think Erap is ‘absolved’ (nor are his grandchildren to whom he will pass on his ill-gotten wealth) at this particular moment in time.
Supremo (at 4:01 am), i concur with Brianb’s explanation at (4:41am) regarding the distinction between individual crime vs. the burden of inherited wealth and inherited position. So in the case of Erap, his children from other women whom he did not acknowledge or support, do not share in his guilt.
I also agree with Brianb’s explanation at 4:53am. Collective guilt exists because the basic building block of Social systems is Communication (not people). If all written (and online) records are destroyed and if everyone were suddenly afflicted with amnesia, then such collective guilt disappears.
The danger, of course, is that history (along with collective guilt) can be manufactured. At the very least, the view of the past is influenced by the present.
mlq3 on Sat, 23rd Feb 2008 11:33 am
collective guilt goes both ways., it justifies pogroms, it justifies the blanket labeling of an entire people. those that hold responsibility are institutions that outlive people: i.g. farben for example, which profited from slave labor; the german government, as the successor to the third reich. but not the german people themselves.
cjv’s proposition is dangerously close to the class liquidations conducted in china and vietnam which merely replaced the liquidated classes with the little emperors of the politburo today. anyone who even gives such year zero fantasies the benefit of the doubt ought to reconsider.
cvj on Sat, 23rd Feb 2008 12:05 pm
mlq3, as you said, it goes both ways. What should be condemned are the progroms, class liquidations and calls for a ‘year zero’, and not the concept of collective guilt itself. The Australians did apologize to the aborigines. Japan also apologized (reluctantly) to China.
That being said, China and Vietnam are on the fast track to economic growth today because they addressed their class inequalities decisively.
mlq3 on Sat, 23rd Feb 2008 12:22 pm
cjv, the apologies were made by governments, which enacted the policies that resulted in the dispossesion of the aborigines and the conquest of china. the japanese paid reparations to the philippines for physical damages and by way of moral damages of a kind.
but really, collective guilt is the kind of thing produced by a totalitarian mentality.
in china they liquidated their merchant and mandarin classes and proceeded to enforce a kind of apartheid that gave preference to party members. in vietnam they liquidated their land owning class and proceeded to persecute catholics and then their middle class who fled the country by the millions.
they replaced one ruling class with another and then seeing it didn’t work, proceeded to return to a system that those classes could have accomplished much earlier if the parties hadn’t been obsessed with reengineering human beings. and then they welcome investments from those they formerly dispossed and sent into exile. in other words it was all for nought because the persecutions and mass liquidations were conducted with certain principles in mind, and those principles have proven themselves flawed and a failure.
at its most extreme you have have hitler, mao, pol pot and the infinite variations on tribal and sectarian warfare of the past and present, all of which are anchored on some variation of the idea of collective guilt. it is simply too dangerous and objectionable to uphold even in theory.
cvj on Sat, 23rd Feb 2008 12:51 pm
mlq3, the Australian government has always been a democratic one so its policies are an expression of the will of the people. That the Japanese apologized and paid reparations is an acknowledgment of their guilt. Granted the Japanese government was not democratic but the militarist and runaway nationalist sentiments had widespread support among the Japanese population at that time (Emperor worship, code of Bushido and all that). In the case of Germany, Hitler (with apologies to Godwin), was also democratically elected. I am a believer in the banality of evil and do not subscribe to the strict separation between the ‘acts of the government’ and the ‘acts of the people’.
In the case of China, as i’ve commented before, it was the dogmatism of the Communist ideology that led them to the excesses of the Great Leap Forward (in 1956) and the Cultural Revolution (in 1966). However, the absence of a landed oligarchy is what made their market reforms effective when they finally came around to implementing such reforms. With the benefit of hindsight, China should have implemented those reforms in 1956 (and not 1978), but those market reforms would not have been effective if their warlords were not kicked out to Taiwan in 1949.
I acknowledge that collective guilt can also be harnessed by totalitarians and many others like Bin Laden in the case of 9/11 or Israel in its bombing of Lebanon two years ago (as defended by American lawyer Alan Dershowitz). That means collective guilt is a dangerous idea, but an idea being dangerous in itself is not grounds for denying its validity much less its existence.
In the case of collective guilt, it must be met head on with the countervailing idea that upholds the sanctity of human life. On a more practical level, the totalitarian impulse towards year zero can be questioned on the grounds that it may be more effective instead, as hvrds said above (at 4:18am), “to coddle [the] oligarchy“. That’s where Amsden’s reciprocal control mechanism (and Abe’s Bayanihan pact) comes in.
UP n student on Sat, 23rd Feb 2008 12:56 pm
To Ace: Thanks for the Bible passages. Now to me, the paragraph that provides the MORAL PRECEPT is the one that describes the obligations to be followed by a society:
2 Kings 14:6
… The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, nor the children be put to death for the fathers; but every man shall be put to death for his own sin.
————
And I hope you do not mistakenly state that except for the different words, that cvj and I have the same position. We do not have the same beliefs, and he scares me.
My sentence:
When the father sins, the father sins.
The children — innocent until proven guilty.
When the child sins, the child sins. The father — innocent until proven guilty.
When the child sins and the father sins, then the child has sinned and the father has sinned. But innocent the generation to be born 30-years later after the sinning.
cvj’s sentences:
–I don’t think Erap is ‘absolved’ (nor are his grandchildren).
—descendants of oligarchic families would ……if only to atone for the sins of their fathers (or grandfathers).
—even in the case where the child has taken no part in his father’s sins which were committed sometime back, there is still an obligation….. I suppose this is so because…
—Collective guilt exists.
Blackshama on Sat, 23rd Feb 2008 1:00 pm
Dear UPn student
You need to read more on revolutionary history from the Darwinian point of view. Revolutions have been plotted but a classic example of a major flop is the one plotted by Jose Maria Sison.
Maoist doctrine did not fit certain evolutionry principles one is that the communist ideal can never survive selection. Marxism will always be a flop unless it evolves. Marx’s predictions of a classless society cannot be supported by a natural science theory. Capitalism can easily be supported by Darwinian theory.
Lenin was just given a measure of luck and without that the Romanovs would still be on Russia’s throne and Russia would likely be a part of the European Union!
Blackshama on Sat, 23rd Feb 2008 1:05 pm
Dear UPn student
We can learn much from Jose Rizal when he correctly understood in the El Filibusterismo that revolutions cab be understood in the Darwinian sense. Rizal is our first Darwinist and Filipino (with the possible exception of Mabini) ever since seems to have correctly understood how social movements succeed and fail.
John Christian Canda on Sat, 23rd Feb 2008 1:05 pm
If I were the Opposition, I would follow Ilocos Norte Congressman Ferdinand “Bongbong” Marcos II’s recommendation to demand that the President answer point by point the charges against her and her Administration rather than call for her resignation.
I shall believe Cry Babies Lozada and Santos only if they support their accusations with evidence. The problem with us is that we easily believe such accusations even if they aren’t supported by evidence.
UP n student on Sat, 23rd Feb 2008 1:06 pm
A cut-and-paste from Wikipedia;
Collective guilt, or guilt by association, is the controversial collectivist idea that a group of humans can bear guilt above and beyond the guilt of particular members, and hence an individual holds responsibility for what other members of his group have done, even if he himself hasn’t done this. Advanced systems of criminal law accept the principle that guilt shall only be personal. This attitude is not usually shared by other systems of law. Assumption of collective responsibility is common for feud. Such systems tend to judge the guilt of persons by their associations, classifications or organizations, which often gives rise to racial, ethnic, social and religious prejudices.
UP n student on Sat, 23rd Feb 2008 1:08 pm
Blackshama: I have no idea what you are addressing, what of Jose Rizal you are referring to, and I have no basis to agree with you or disagree with you.
magdiwang on Sat, 23rd Feb 2008 1:17 pm
I got the chance to watch “the Probe” and “Ang Bandila”. Poor GMA, the programs are so one sided against her government and its a real surprise that she has not been ousted yet. I wonder if its people power fatigue or the citizens just dont care anymore.
If I may ask to those people who advocate the removal of GMA. Who do you think is the person who can lead our nation on the path of ideal good governance? A leader who can influence the disparate groups into buying into his/her leadership. Will there be such a president in our lifetime? Someone who does not compromise on his beliefs up to a point of alienating different costituencies….or is the Philippines is just a too hard to govern that whoever is task to lead is doomed to fail because of systemic problems in our society. People Power every 5=10 years anyone?
cvj on Sat, 23rd Feb 2008 1:21 pm
As per Steven Landsburg:
“I recently attended a party where a learned man – a prominent physist – held forth. His topic was the analogy betweeen Darwinian evolution, advancing the species biologically by allowing only the fittest to survive, and the Invisible Hand of the marketplace, advancing our species economically by elminating all but the most efficient producers.
I suspect that he didn’t know much about biology. I’m sure that he didn’t know much about economics. And his analogy, though familiar, was profoundly wrong.
In biology, there is no equivalent of the Invisible hand. Survival of the fittest is a different thing altogether. Nothing in evolutionary theory either promises or delivers the spectacular efficiency of the competitive marketplace – Steven Landsburg, The Armchair Economist”
I only would like to add that the ‘Invisible Hand’ of the marketplace only works when certain assumptions hold true. Failing that, you get market failure.
cvj on Sat, 23rd Feb 2008 1:29 pm
I don’t know how you could be so sure of that. What if the Romanovs were instead deposed by the fascists (which was the rising ideology that competed with Communism at that that point in history). At that time, Capitalism as an idea was beleaguered. Only the New Deal which implemented the ideas of J.M. Keynes saved it.
It is then possible that a fascist Russia, Nazi Germany and militarist Japan would form a tripartite fascist alliance against the democracies. Since, it was the Soviet Union that absorbed the full might of Hitler’s armies, their absence from the allied effort could have sealed the fate of the free world. You would have a European Union alright but it would be very different from the one that you have now.
Madonna on Sat, 23rd Feb 2008 2:25 pm
Competition is for business and not economies. — hvrds
I so very agree. This is where our leaders and our elite do not get it. They are so enamored with “competitiveness” even the likes of a Mar Roxas who is the very same mold as his elitist backround would attest (busines minded, not patriotism minded) that they do not get that the primary concept that should be attached with the case for improving our domestic economy is productivity — and that the focus of that should be developing the individual Filipino’s maximum ability to produce from available resources. Case in point, our very own governor, a technocrat like Joey Salceda who is himself undermining the abaca industry and going for BPO industries just because the latter is competitive and the former is not, according to him. We have leaders who are quick to latch on to the latest, the most modern, the most in demand, the flavor of the moment. We have leaders who have no sense of history and who don’t have a strategic vision of the future either. It’s always a “now” mode. We have leaders who undermine our native potential, and I have always wondered whether it is the lack of imagination or merely that our elite always want to think that they are at par with the best in the world. They think equality and competitiveness with the rest of the world, but never when those are applied in the local setting.
ramrod on Sat, 23rd Feb 2008 2:37 pm
NEWS FLASH!
Arroyo: I learned about ZTE mess on eve of signing deal
President Gloria Macapagal Arroyo on Saturday said she learned that something was wrong about the Philippine government’s $329.48-million National Broadband Network project with China’s Zhong Xing Telecommunications Equipment (ZTE) Corp the night before she witnessed the signing of the NBN-ZTE contract.
http://www.gmanews.tv/story/81878/Arroyo-says-she-learned-of-ZTE-mess-on-eve-of-signing-deal
So Gloria is innocent, she’s a victim of a villainous, corrupt and thieving staff who can hoodwink her into signing anything? We should get her as a STAR WITNESS!
ramrod on Sat, 23rd Feb 2008 2:53 pm
I leave the matter of ECONOMICS to economists, I have to stick to BUSINESS as its more down to earth and not prone to jargon and statistical manipulation. If you’re not making money, it shows, no bs about it.
I still believe in striving for COMPETITIVENESS and this also shared with a number of businessmen locally. We have companies that are GLOBALLY COMPETITIVE in their respective industries, mainly because of sustainable business and manufacturing practices, quality control, service, and innovation. These companies have prospered without depending too much on government, they pay their taxes, pay their people justly, and are responsible in terms of environmental and social concerns.
What I am worried about are those industries where the Philippines was very competitive in like CARAGEENAN production (80% of the world’s supply coming from the the Philippines) has lost their edge primarily because of lack of government support and local corruption getting a stranglehold on supply sourcing.
As I have been saying everytime, there are REAL ISSUES at stake that have to be addressed and they all can be traced to the current administration as the perpetrators are the same allies that close ranks to save it whenever besieged by a people who are clamoring for accountability and change.
For those who are not aware of these issues due to OUT-OF-TOUCHness, just watch how we, the people are ACTUALLU going to do something about it.
ramrod on Sat, 23rd Feb 2008 3:01 pm
“We have leaders who have no sense of history and who don’t have a strategic vision of the future either. It’s always a “now†mode. We have leaders who undermine our native potential, and I have always wondered whether it is the lack of imagination or merely that our elite always want to think that they are at par with the best in the world. ” – Madonna
We have these type of leaders because we elected them, in elections, those who can readily shell out money or have celebrity status get the votes. Strangely, we had people who ran for office who focused on REAL ISSUES, were competent professionally and more importantly MORALLY to lead but frustratingly most do not appreciate these things. Why this is happening is puzzling to me but nevertheless we will not stop knocking on the hearts of people and I believe that eventually people will be serious about what is REAL and WHAT MATTERS.
ramrod on Sat, 23rd Feb 2008 3:05 pm
Madonna,
Don’t take Salceda seriously, look what he called his boss on television? Slip of the tongue? Some things due to ethical reasons should not be said or done even in jest…
ramrod on Sat, 23rd Feb 2008 3:10 pm
This LEADERSHIP CRISIS our country has been through everytime is scaring me. I am reminded of a fable where in a pond lived frogs that perenially had problems with their leaders, if not always sleeping, its something else. Finally a big, strong heron came, they were celebrating, at last they had what they asked for, something majestic, strong, and had this respect-demanding stature…until it started to eat them…
The Equalizer on Sat, 23rd Feb 2008 3:14 pm
This poem is based on ACTUAL QUOTES:
“MESSAGE SENT,MESSAGE RECEIVED”
(Gloria Pidal)
“Ang taumbayan galit sa katiwalian
Ganoon din ako
I learned about ZTE mess
On the eve of the signing deal!â€
“I will not resign
I have no shame
Parang laser beam
Naka focus ako sa economyâ€
(Gloria’s Classmates in Assumption)
“If you call Gloria evil,
You might as well call me a prostitute!
She just puts up a brave front
But we know her human sideâ€
(Albay Governor Joey Salceda)
“She may be a b*tch
But she’s the luckiest b*tch around,”
Naku, may TV nga pala
Message sent. Message received”
(Former Speaker JDV)
“Ang buong Maynila… businessmen sa Maynila
Alam nila na ang mga hari ng smuggling
dito sa Metro Manila at saka sa Pilipinas
Ay sina Mike Arroyo at Mikey Arroyo”
(Gloria Pidal)
“Ang mga sinasabi nito na ganyan
Sinabi niya na ganyan,
Panay hakahaka, bukambibig.
Ito ay galing sa burak ng tsismisâ€
“Sabi-sabi at batikos.
Kaya nakapalungkot na bumababa
sa ganitong desperadong paninira
ang mga kalaban ko sa pulitika !â€.
ramrod on Sat, 23rd Feb 2008 3:24 pm
Lozada is just the tip of the iceberg, he’s not the “be all” and “end all” have we forgotten the “hello garci?” and the tampered election returns, etc? Why people play prosecutors and try doing their “destroy the witness credibility” thing when its been tried by better lawyers before is humorous. But then again, easy.
ramrod on Sat, 23rd Feb 2008 3:29 pm
Some people say that this time is an opportunity for heroism, they may be right. For me these should be an automatic response to SAY NO to corruption and kick those thieving leaders’(?) asses out of office, the sooner, the better so we can finally get ones that are worth the Filipino.
Madonna on Sat, 23rd Feb 2008 3:31 pm
Don’t take Salceda seriously, look what he called his boss on television? Slip of the tongue? Some things due to ethical reasons should not be said or done even in jest… — ramrod
Opps, Joey Salceda is a shrewd politico himself. He was on to something there, playing a game of some sort, a subtle undermining of his boss. Why say that GMA is lucky within the context of the economy. He’s an economist and he knows the real story behind it — lucky si Ate Glo because the economy has grown in spite of her policies, not because of it.
Look at FVR’s talk right now. Hint of another people power. Subtle undermining and much double talk going on to off balance Ate Glo. The Lakas old guard is getting a revenge out of KAMPI’s overrule of Lakas NUCD. FVR is a democrat, despite his military backround and he is in tune to what the populace demands, and he balances this with his preference for sound economic results and political stability.
ramrod on Sat, 23rd Feb 2008 3:35 pm
Madonna,
So we’re going to put Salceda (governor of Albay?) in the WATCH LIST for next elections.
Madonna on Sat, 23rd Feb 2008 3:42 pm
“I leave the matter of ECONOMICS to economists,”
That’s why ramrod, the focus of political leaders should not be businesses per se, but the economy in general — which as hvrds pointed out, echoing Paul Krugman, the key word is productivity, not competitiveness.
In the Philippines, the skewed priority partial to a number businesses or industries is a reflection or a function also of how business interests are powerful or influential, which I think are right up there with the undue influence of the Catholic Church to the political system. In democracies with a thriving free market economy, productivity is remarkably high, and one reflection is that citizens in general have high incomes comparatively speaking.
Of course, a business or company’s focus is competition, assuming it is in an level playing field, and is not in a regulated or a monopolistic environment.
adrienne on Sat, 23rd Feb 2008 3:44 pm
we see students from schools like miriam, ateneo and even la salle and csb, organizing themselves, but wondering where the common people, the minimum wage earners and the have-nots are make me feel uneasy. it seems that we’re only having a mass action because of lozada’s “kasikatan”.
we hear so much about the search for truth and yet, even the cbcp doesn’t know where to start looking, chosing to paint its stand via what they call “communal action” which hardly suggest anything. even in the midst of an historical event, devoid of meaning siya eh. parang when you see skaters do something wild, you go “awesome!” pero you know such a reaction is kulang. empty. and so is the “busina para sa katotohanan”. as if honking is enough.
its hard for me not to sound postmodernist (and therefore, a lunatic), but, ano nga ba ang katotohanan?
parang naging trend na lang ‘to dahil bumebenta yung model eh (lozada, prayers, god). i would’ve been more enthusiastic to join if the left (either natdem or akbayan [except rocamora. lol]) is leading the protests. sa kanila lang ako nakakakita ng objectivity eh.
Madonna on Sat, 23rd Feb 2008 3:48 pm
So we’re going to put Salceda (governor of Albay?) in the WATCH LIST for next elections.
– ramrod
He beat the incumbent governor here whose track record for graft was clean and who erroneously thought that it was not enough for him to be reelected. Salceda is a politician who plays to win and he knows how to win the game. There are talks he wants to run for Senator. Yaikks.
ramrod on Sat, 23rd Feb 2008 3:49 pm
Madonna,
I understand where you’re coming from re competitiveness vis-a-vis productivity. If we talk about being competitive but lag in productivity we will be focusing on price wars that more often than not results to profit erosion and worst – quality deterioration (as producers will try to cut corners). What I meant was, competitiveness is actually a result of productivity. Efficiency, cost effectiveness, quality control, sutainability, sourcing and service are just elements of productivity which I believe is a more solid foundation for competitiveness…
tess on Sat, 23rd Feb 2008 3:50 pm
Arroyo: I learned about ZTE mess on eve of signing deal
Out of the horse’s mouth! These people will just do and say anything to cover-up the mess they are in. Kahit na magmukhang tanga at katawatawa. That’s the problem when someone is lying, nagkakabuhol-buhol ang kwento.
Started way back 2005 with the “hello Garci” thing. They did not really clear up the issue, ” I am sorry” lang, whatever that means. Then came the ZTE, they shelved the project but, the issue of corruption was again never addressed… The issues now can be likened to a fire that was never really put out. Now, the embers have grown to a bigger one.
ramrod on Sat, 23rd Feb 2008 3:51 pm
“He beat the incumbent governor here whose track record for graft was clean and who erroneously thought that it was not enough for him to be reelected.” – Madonna
What a shame. What a waste. As long as that guy is still alive, there is still hope.
cvj on Sat, 23rd Feb 2008 4:11 pm
If GMA knew beforehand that the contract was anomalous, why did she allow its signing? Isn’t that a sign of incompetence?
ramrod on Sat, 23rd Feb 2008 4:16 pm
cvj,
If the incompetence angle will be pulled out, she will point to her staff.
ramrod on Sat, 23rd Feb 2008 4:19 pm
cvj,
At least its established, the ZTE deal was indeed anomalous, patay na si Abalos! Even Formosa who justified the additional 130M as cost of infrastructure, which is actually a lie as sources say they are only going to use the existing telecoms backbone.
ramrod on Sat, 23rd Feb 2008 4:21 pm
cvj,
What do you think? Nagmumukhang kawawa ba si Gloria because of her incompetent and corrupt people already?
ace on Sat, 23rd Feb 2008 4:25 pm
If GMA knew beforehand that the contract was anomalous, why did she allow its signing? Isn’t that a sign of incompetence?” – cvj
..and after five months goes to China and cancel the deal before the Chinese president for reasons she knew five months ago.
Mandaragat on Sat, 23rd Feb 2008 4:30 pm
Even GMA resign, ganon parin, paulit-ulit lang, nagpapalit lang ng personalidad pero nariyan pa rin at iiral ang “dysfunctional system”.
Kung merong grupo o individual na talagang magtutulak ng malawakang pagbabago sa political o social na pagbabago sa sistema, I will support them. I would even beg here if necessary to support them financially.
Ngayon, kung aalisin si GMA, papalit ang mga politician na palaging nakikita sa TFC, well pababayaan nalang natin sigurong magbarilan ang magkabilang panig. At least mabawasan man lang ng konti ang mga magnanakaw sa gobyerno na nagpapahirap sa maraming mamamayan.
Rude? Yes I am, dahil nakakasawa nang maging mahirap!
Silent Waters on Sat, 23rd Feb 2008 4:40 pm
MLQ3
CVJ’s mind is already closed regarding liquidation of the so called landed and rich classes. Fantasya ni CVJ talaga ang year zero. Gusto niya gawing Pantasya ng Bayan ang konsepto. Matagal ko na sinabi na human nature dictates that somebody will take over in a vacuum. and as you said, another group just took over the leadership of the elites with disastrous effects (e.g. China). Buti na lang, Deng Xiao Peng figured it out or else baka the whole Communist Party in CHina will have been gone by now.
ramrod on Sat, 23rd Feb 2008 4:43 pm
A possible NEXT scenario would be Gloria having cancelled and apologized to China after catching bad people in her government assures them that this will not go unpunished. She then spearheads this MORAL RECOVERY or something program in government and proceeds to chop off the heads of departments found guilty of graft and corruption. They start with Abalos, then JDV being linked to smuggling of oil, then some procurement officers in the military, so on and so forth.
Madonna on Sat, 23rd Feb 2008 4:58 pm
Dear Ate Glo,
Details, please on how you discovered the anomaly in the ZTE deal. And so we may see clearly the devil in this mess. No such thing as please as “I am sorry” ploy during the Hello Garci bruhaha where the details have been left to imagination. Gosh, outrageous on how you blatanty treat us, citizens with your evasive and hither dither tactics. OUTRAGEOUS OF HOW YOU MAKE A MOCKERY OF THE TRUTH THAT WE SO DESERVE SINCE 2005. KAPAL NG MUKHA MO SOBRA.
Silent Waters on Sat, 23rd Feb 2008 5:07 pm
Mita
I agree with your comment dated Feb 23 at 7:10 am. I have enough experience with this mentality. 12 years of working in a factory environment makes you realize that it’s a choice for them.
I have actually seen an instance where a factory worker has declined promotion and higher pay so that he won’t lose his friendship with his fellow workers. Can you believe that? That’s the same kind of mentality I see prevailing when people vote for their leaders. They vote for people who they think will owe them something from which they’ll collect their due later on.
And we wonder why the country is all screwed up…sheeshh
ramrod on Sat, 23rd Feb 2008 5:13 pm
silent waters,
Its not all screwed up. Its still running well in some quarters. All thats needed is some fine tuning, a tweak here, a press there…nothing people like you and everybody who is willing to do something can’t handle.
Silent Waters on Sat, 23rd Feb 2008 5:17 pm
ramrod
That’s true….I guess nakakapagod lang talaga. You try to teach them how to fish and yet they still just ask for fish to be handed to them….
nash on Sat, 23rd Feb 2008 5:20 pm
@mita
“your ordinary Pinoy voter will still elect familiar names.”
Just out of curiosity, who did YOU vote for in the senate elections?
ramrod on Sat, 23rd Feb 2008 5:24 pm
silent waters,
Hindi lang yan, aapurahin ka pa, at times parang ikaw pa ang may utang na loob, minsan pag na frustrate kasalanan mo pa kung bakit pinaasa mo na pwedeng magbago ang buhay nila, worst, wala pang tenk yu. But then again, you find one or two whos different, and it makes everything worhtwhile…
nash on Sat, 23rd Feb 2008 5:25 pm
@silent waters
“I have actually seen an instance where a factory worker has declined promotion and higher pay so that he won’t lose his friendship with his fellow workers”
Could it be because we Pinoys have a tendency to call people above us as “Boss” and it’s awkward to call your friend ‘Boss? (Of course this is not the indication that we value too much hierarchy we tend to use Atty, Dr, Engr, too much…)
I was once in a meeting and called the CEO by his first name while the rest were calling him “Boss”. It was truly weird, because I also call the street vendor “Boss” as in “Boss, pabili naman ng kendi..”
ramrod on Sat, 23rd Feb 2008 5:39 pm
nash,
I myself by indoctrination automatically call anyone sir or mam. It was not until I stayed in Singapore that my colleagues taught me to call everybody by first name basis, yes even the CEO.
Once, when one of my bosses came with me in Pinas, he was surprised I called one of our customers “boss” and he said he’s not your boss, but I explained we call everyone boss even the taxi driver (which he witnessed soon enough).
Its been my observation for the longest time that Filipinos are shy or are fixated to the idea that being low key, quiet, staying within the barkada or comfort zone is how it should be and standing out means being mayabang or ambisyoso.
I always quote a poem that to me strikes to the heart of this problem…
OUR DEEPEST FEAR
‘Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond imagination. It is our light more than our darkness which scares us. We ask ourselves – who are we to be brilliant, beautiful, talented, and fabulous. But honestly, who are you to not be so?
You are a child of God, small games do not work in this world. For those around us to feel peace, it is not example to make ourselves small. We were born to express the glory of god that lives in us. It is not in some of us, it is in all of us. While we allow our light to shine, we unconsciously give permission for others to do the same. When we liberate ourselves from our own fears, simply our presence may liberate others.’
- Marianne Williamson in Return to Love: Reflections on a Course in Miracles
Silent Waters on Sat, 23rd Feb 2008 5:45 pm
@Nash
Maybe you’re right…but it’s just interesting that this person will sacrifice the well being of his family just so he wouldn’t lose his relationship with his friends….
@ramrod
I read the passage you included in your message to Nash and it has always moved me every time. Thanks.
ramrod on Sat, 23rd Feb 2008 6:01 pm
THE JOURNALIST, THE VULTURE, AND THE CHILD
http://www.mukto-mona.com/Articles/kevin_carter/sudan_child.htm
nash on Sat, 23rd Feb 2008 6:59 pm
@ramrod
Sir, I think you are excused (being in the military).
I think I just want to point out that if one wants to stick to a title, one should better deserve it.
I have yet to call a congressman “Honorable” and more importantly a sitting president should always live up to the title “Her/His Excellence”, the operative word being “Excellence”. Otherwise, as the new youtube star Salceda says “Bitch” will do.
@Silent Waters
My other theory is that the incentive is deemed not worth the added responsibility. You can of course be promoted by title only without a salary increase or with a small one. I once asked my aunt why she gave up the promotion to become a ward supervisor (nurse), she said for the additional £100 income, she’d rather have stress-free weekends and not think about managing the ward schedules.
Pero when you think about the example you mentioned, I really wonder why the friendship should be compromised jsut because of the promotion. Ah, but then, power corrupts?
nash on Sat, 23rd Feb 2008 7:02 pm
@Silent Waters
PS. also, maybe you cannot put a price tag on quality time with the family. the promotion will probably require longer hours…but then again, it is rare for the ‘boss’ to work longer hours…hmmm, puzzle talaga!
supremo on Sat, 23rd Feb 2008 7:28 pm
If GMA knew beforehand that the contract was anomalous, why did she allow its signing? Isn’t that a sign of incompetence?†– cvj
Baka makalusot cvj. Let’s move on to impeachment.
supremo on Sat, 23rd Feb 2008 7:48 pm
“Someone told me about it the night before the signing of the supply contract. That was one of many signings [in China]. But how can you cancel it the night before, considering that you are dealing with another country?†– GMA
‘You have sat too long here for any good you have been doing. Depart, I say, and let us have done with you. In the name of God, go.’ – Oliver Cromwell
jude on Sat, 23rd Feb 2008 8:38 pm
“collective guilt goes both ways” – Manuel Quezon III
It goes to show that Mr. Quezon is an apologist for the ruling classes, the oligarchs. He doesn’t want the oligarchs to bear the brunt of responsibility for the ills of Philippine society when, in fact, it was the oligarchs who tolerated Marcos, Ramos, GMA, etc. As Romulo Neri pointed out, oligarchs rule through the captive industries they dominate and which they use to influence government policies and contracts. The ruling classes, which include prominent friends of Mr. Quezon, were responsible for bastardizing Philippine politics and the Philippine economy.
james on Sat, 23rd Feb 2008 9:15 pm
JESUS NEVER PREACHED JEWISH EMANCIPATION FROM ROMAN TYRANNY. I AM CONFUSED WITH THESE PRIESTS WHO ARE SO ENGROSSED WITH TOPPLING DOWN ANY GOVERNEMNT THEY PERCEIVE AS CORRUPT. THEY DO NOT THINK THAT MOST LEADERS THAT WE HAVE TODAY WERE PRODUCTS OF THEIR EXCLUSIVE SCHOOLS. from philstar
Kabayan on Sat, 23rd Feb 2008 9:18 pm
Separate the guilt from the innocent. The guilty judged while the innocent spared. Institute check and balances so that control of a few of the nation’s economic wealth will be stifled and eventually removed. Educate the people of Oligarchic Syndicracy and Dictatorship; make them aware that they can say NO; that they have the real power. We do not want a Nazi-like pogrom in our county. This creates a new “elite” clique which dispenses decisions of life and death haphazardly.
Kabayan on Sat, 23rd Feb 2008 9:23 pm
Correction for above post, should be: Separate the guilty from the innocent…
The Equalizer on Sat, 23rd Feb 2008 9:25 pm
The Philippines needs a president with integrity at the core of his/her being.We are in dire need of a new leader completely different from both ERAP and GLORIA PIDAL .In other words, we need a president who possesses the following characteristics (which Gloria and ERAP sadly do not possess):
Honesty:
The truth is what must always be spoken. Politicians who lie their way to positions of power have corrupted the political process for generations. Lies, distortions, and half-truths cannot be tolerated within the highest office of the land.
Values:
The president must be a person of unquestionable personal values. Anyone lacking a basic value system is not qualified to be the leader of our country.
Credibility:
We need a credible leader, someone known for consistency in his or her belief. Presidential aspirants should have a believable record, and not a history of changing their beliefs depending upon the latest political poll. The issue of credibility determines the effectiveness of being able to lead at the national level.
Communication skills:
Once, this was not such an issue. Today, it is. In this era of instant, and continual communications, it is vital that a president be able to effectively communicate with the nation, and the world.
Ability to inspire:
Regardless of all of the other qualities needed by president, without the ability to inspire, all is lost. He or she must be able to inspire our long suffering people to start believing again in their leaders and in themselves.
vic on Sat, 23rd Feb 2008 9:33 pm
“Oh what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive” Yet, the deceiving doesn’t stop, and now it is coming from the Very Top..”yeah I know there were some irregularities, but until somebody say it right to my face, I’ll keep my silence”..
UP n student on Sat, 23rd Feb 2008 10:12 pm
“The ruling classes … were responsible for bastardizing Philippine politics and the Philippine economy.” -Jude
Personalized, rich-vs-poor class warfare is:
“The rich are thieves or sons or grandsons of thieves.”
“If you are richer than me, then you have stolen from me.”
“If you are poorer than me, then you want to steal from me.”
rego on Sat, 23rd Feb 2008 10:18 pm
“As I have been saying everytime, there are REAL ISSUES at stake that have to be addressed and they all can be traced to the current administration as the perpetrators are the same allies that close ranks to save it whenever besieged by a people who are clamoring for accountability and change.”
=========================================================
I believe REAL ISSUE NOW is on how go about with accountability and change that everybody is clamoring. Everybody wants public accountability and change and surely believe that that will improve their lives. But everyd cannot aggre on ho wto about it. I said this from the very start that I join this blog and I say it again.
Everyone in this forum is conquering the same territor
y. But is taking different routes in conquestteri. ( Of course its inspired by Stephen Covey Book 7 Habits). What is happening in this forum is that one sectors are so aggressive in their method of conquest and is constantly picking up on the other group of people that is taking a different route from theirs. One group woudl even claim that they are the good and the nice guys whiel teh other group is bad and eveil guys. Resulta, GULO!
BTW this is also the main platform of Barack Obama and Hilary Clinton. (Barack even have electoral reform) Of their platform are born out of the mess made by teh current president. So even the USA has the same problems as hours. But they do it in a very differnet ways than ours. There was no hate mongering, their was no overthrowing of government, there is no extra constitutional means, no peopel power, open letter contest no throwing of legalities out of the windows. None of those drama and antics from the opposition and and from those people who is aggressively clamoring for change in the phillippines. They simply waited for the end of Bush term. Prepared themselvse for the next next election. Yet they seem to be very effective. Judging from the way the way Hilary and Barack is doing in the democratic primary and caucauses and how they generated peoples interest. You guys can see them on cable TV right?
vic on Sat, 23rd Feb 2008 10:28 pm
rego, when it comes to more important issues that concern the national interest, even the main oppositions (loyal oppositions) has to sit down with the government and work out a plan together. One good example is our country’s mission in Afghanistan, instead of the Government forcing an election on the issue of when to call it quits, the Politicians of all stripes decided that this issues is too dangerous to leave to the voters alone to decide..how about if the voters made a mistake? we are talking about our Soldiers here. so Instead the politicians, all of them which represent the totality of all voters work out a plan until they came to an agreement..we can not debate and argue while our soldiers are fighting, lest we change postion with them.
cvj on Sat, 23rd Feb 2008 10:31 pm
Ramrod, i think the incompetence is on her part as it shows lack of decisiveness. Pointing to the staff also betrays lack of control and lack of sense of responsibility – all indicators of poor leadership.
As to her excuse – “how can you cancel it the night before, considering that you are dealing with another country?“, wasn’t she the one who bragged that a “a president is as strong as she want to be“? This sentence reveals weakness on her part.
Of course, her statement also contradicts the timeline presented by Neri, so frankly, i think she’s lying.
James, i’m glad you equated the Arroyo administration with ‘Roman Tyranny’.
Silent Waters, as much as possible, i don’t favor a ‘year zero’ (for reasons Kabayan mentioned at 9:18pm). I prefer a more targeted approach.
The Equalizer on Sat, 23rd Feb 2008 11:03 pm
Voice from the past:
GOOD MOVE, BAD MOVE
By Ricardo Saludo (Asiaweek:1999)
What makes a good power move? Or a bad one? No, devils and angels have nothing to do with it. Power has one objective: to make things happen, whether good or evil. What things? Whatever the power wielder wants. So one test of a good power move is whether it had the effect it was supposed to have. At the start of Manila’s People Power Revolution in 1986, Asiaweek asked Ferdinand Marcos whether there would be a curfew. He promptly ordered one. But nobody paid attention – a clear failure of clout. Indeed, blatant flouting of Marcos’s word just accelerated the implosion of his authority. Which brings us to a second criterion for power moves: Did it enhance or erode the wielder’s clout?
Ricardo Saludo is now Gloria’s Cabinet secretary)
UP n student on Sat, 23rd Feb 2008 11:12 pm
Vic: Abe Margallo may label Canadian Politics a failure for this sentence: “instead of the Government forcing an election on the issue …
UP n student on Sat, 23rd Feb 2008 11:19 pm
Vic: And Canada is such an inviting place for a number of liberty-seeking people of all stripes, but to leave the citizens out of a war-and-peace discussion and without people-power marches???! Blasphemy!!!
Or maybe it works for Canada because Canadians believe that their politicians.. all of them which represent the totality of all voters .
vic on Sat, 23rd Feb 2008 11:23 pm
UPn, There are quite a few school thoughts on this issue. But for me, this is the one I am comfortable with, because for the reason that any Party here can win the Government with winning the majority seats in the Province of Ontario alone and the popularity vote of even less than 35%. Because of the system of any party winning the most seats wins the government, that could happen. And that could mean a party whose plan for the troops that may not be for their best interest maybe catapulted to power by 30% of the voters. Whereas, all political parties represent all voters.
UP n student on Sat, 23rd Feb 2008 11:32 pm
vic: I hear you! I just wanted to point out the paragraph in your blogpost entry because it is in contrast to other well-articulated points-of-view by others. It — no people-power??? — is blasphemy for others, but it appears it works well, for now, for Canada (from your perspective). Representative democracy does work!!!!
And you did say all political parties represent all voters…. radical!!!!
vic on Sat, 23rd Feb 2008 11:39 pm
thanks UPn, we must remember that politicians of all colours are all part and parcel of Democracy..
vic on Sat, 23rd Feb 2008 11:42 pm
But I am always a True Conservative and been a member of the Conservative Party for a long, long time, yet I admire a lot of Liberal Leaders and consider one Socialist in Tommy Douglas the Greatest of Them All..
Blackshama on Sun, 24th Feb 2008 12:04 am
Dear UPn student
Read your Darwin (the Origin of Species followed by the Descent of Man) first and then the El Filibusterismo. There are a few mouldy copies at the College of Science library at UP Diliman.
I presume you have read your Marx. Darwin is much much an easier read.
Happy reading!
UP n student on Sun, 24th Feb 2008 12:05 am
And my fearful bemusement with cvj stems from sentences like this
What is interesting is that if you make “year-zero” the days-when-Monarchy-reigned (e.g. Shah-of-Iran) or the “days-when-Philippines-was-a-US-commonwealth”, the people targetted by the “…more targetted approach” can be any “LOWER”-class… “LOWER” meaning slimeballs in the eyes of the year-Zero leaders… so the targetting hit-teams can be Pinochet’s version, not just Sparrow-units.
So be sure to ask what “year-zero”? Trace the money. The capitalist-behind-the-plot may be the Saudis with year-zero being pre-Spaniards. Or the capitalista may be Honasan… but probably not Noli de Castro (Jon Mariano mentions that Noli may be P220-million “poorer” after his purchase of a love-nest… horny bastard
!!!!)
UP n student on Sun, 24th Feb 2008 12:07 am
to Blackshama: Thanks!!! pero wala bang Cliff notes?
BrianB on Sun, 24th Feb 2008 12:51 am
UP n, forget Blackshama’s reading list. Read William James, Freud and Immanuel Kant and read a little of Tagore. Origin of the Species is not exactly “bleeding edge.” Marx glories in artificial constructs like “dialectic.”
Adrienne
It has always been thus.
Abe N. Margallo on Sun, 24th Feb 2008 12:56 am
collective guilt goes both ways. – mlq3
That means collective guilt is a dangerous idea, but an idea being dangerous in itself is not grounds for denying its validity much less its existence. – cvj
Here’s a relevant entry from wiki on “group-based guilt†(not “collective guiltâ€) and reparation through “affirmative action†(based in part on Charles Hurst’s “Social Inequality: Forms, Causes, and Consequencesâ€):
Proponents of affirmative action generally advocate it either as a means to address past discrimination or to enhance racial, ethnic, gender, or other diversity of some minority groups. They may argue that the end result – a more diversified and representative student body, police force or other group – justifies the means, despite the text of the Equal Protection Clause, and regardless of the adverse discrimination against European Americans or Asian Americans.
Philanthropists have drawn comparisons between the current economic state of some non-dominant groups and poverty. Children born, today, to dominant families are clearly not at all responsible for poverty throughout the world. Although these children have in no way caused or condoned poverty, history predicts that some will nevertheless see poverty as an injustice that should be righted if indeed possible. Proponents of affirmative action may believe that genuine residual social and economic injustices continue to affect particular groups; and that these injustices should be righted if indeed possible. Beyond the moral arguments for righting injustices, some proponents claim that immediate reparatory action – rather than delayed action or no action – can prevent the social and economic issues from reaching a stage where they become impossible (or greatly more difficult) to repair.
Much of the controversy surrounding affirmative action’s effectiveness is based on the idea of class inequality. Opponents of racial affirmative action argue that the program actually benefits middle and upper class minorities at the expense of lower class whites. This argument supports the idea of solely class based affirmative action. America’s poor is disproportionately made up of minorities, so class based affirmative action would disproportionately help minorities. This would eliminate the need for race based affirmative action as well as reducing any disproportionate benefits for middle and upper class minorities.
My take on the issue is indicated in this old post of mine on Erap and Mahatir:
Estrada appreciated that conceptions of fairness and justice cut very deep and are compelling catalyst, and that continued concentration of wealth in the hands of the Philippine elites would undermine the authenticity of market-oriented system and democracy. His campaign slogan was Erap para sa mahihirap (Erap is for the poor) and the centerpiece agenda of his new administration was food security. A welfare vis-à -vis market reforms might not be farfetched. Prime Minister Mohamad Mahathir of Malaysia pursued a parallel scheme, what some commentators called affirmative action for the disadvantaged bumiputra majority, to temper the economic dominance of Malaysia’s Chinese minority.
And on a larger perspective this commentary:
What’s being postulated furthermore is that even the market construct could become fair if struggling but willing and ready nations are given a decent chance to build and accumulate [or in the language of hvrds: be “productive†through “impetus†provided by the state as actor - AND by economic elites with a high “sense of country,†if I may add, or “patriotic minded†as Madonna pointed out] just as exactly as the leading economic powers of today did during their own growing pains and struggles; and enabled to be on similar footing, then and only then should these latecomers be made to face up to the challenge of competition. On an individual level, they call this “affirmative action†in America. I believe even nations are entitled to equal opportunity. This axiom, possibly more legitimating than “economic liberalism,†requires that adjustments to transformation of this sort relative to the prevailing international economic order should demand more of the stronger states than the weaker ones, not the other way around.
rego on Sun, 24th Feb 2008 1:03 am
Vic,
That should always be the case, kahit saan bansa naman yata eh. I believe yan ang problema sa Pinas ngayon. The opposition wont do anything regarding issue or poblem resolution unless Glora resigns.
But Gloria doesn’t want to resign no matter how much pressure is exerted on to her.
Now the people is left with the decision to keep her or to continue forcing her to resign.
My stand is to let her stay until her term expires. And we removed her before her term expires it shoudl be done through the existing process defined in the constitution. Prove all these allegations of anomalies consitutional violations in the proper courst to convict her.
And from my view, all these brouhaha over Lozada is not really accomplishing much so far other than media exposure for presidential and senatorial wannabes and powerplay of the political elites and oligarchs. That was all these mass at LSG and all these letter signed by peopel from prominent schools and was holding prominent positions before.
BrianB on Sun, 24th Feb 2008 1:03 am
John Canda,
“The problem with us is that we easily believe such accusations even if they aren’t supported by evidence.”
Lozada is a witness. In our courts, this can be more powerful than the evidence. I don’t know if this is true but some lawyers (older ones) say you cannot put a man in jail without at least one direct witness against him. Sounds stupid but I can believe anything about this country’s legal system.
BrianB on Sun, 24th Feb 2008 1:09 am
Re collective guilt:
Don’t go with Manolo on his focus on consequences. I’m sure it is a logical fallacy or something.
Manolo, if there is no collective guilt, then there is no collective amnesia. I’m sure you’ve used the latter phrase before, and quite with sincerity.
BrianB on Sun, 24th Feb 2008 1:10 am
collective=cultural
Bencard on Sun, 24th Feb 2008 1:10 am
“bencard, i agree so much with LTD test. but i’m very much concerned on how either side will accept the result though.” rego.
thank you, rego, for this very important question. since lozada is the complainant and principal witness to the alleged kidnapping and bribery, he has to convince the prosecutor that he has sufficient evidence to bring the cases to court and to convict the accused. in the process of evaluating lozada’s “evidence”, the prosecutor is not limited to lozada’s affidavit and testimony, or any physical evidence. what better way for a prosecutor to ascertain whether lozada is telling the truth than to require him to submit to polygraph testing. if lozada passed, the prosecutor would have the confidence and a better chance of “winning” against a formidable defense that has the constitutional presumption of innocence among its arsenal. i believe lozada would have no choice but to submit or else his complaint may have to be dismissed.
as to the other side, atienza et al., i think, would not only be in a position to object, but also would have no reason to accept the outcome. it would be a win, win situation for all the accused. considering what is apparently happening now that so many people, including students and universities, are making prejudgment against the accused, believing every word lozada utters, even hailing him as a “hero” and celebrity, without any of his testimony being tested according to accepted standards of truth-seeking. if lozada was dishonest, and the polygraph showed it, that would put a damper on the political firestorm that gma’s enemies had built upon it. the bubble, of both lozada and the people capitalizing on his lies, would burst. in the political “war” that is going on, that would be one battle won for the administration.
as far as the accused are concerned, even if lozada passed the test, it should not affect the presumption of their innocence since that would be inadmissible as evidence against them in court. also, i believe, such outcome, by itself, would be insufficient to convict the accused “beyond reasonable doubt”.
Bencard on Sun, 24th Feb 2008 1:13 am
correction: 3rd par., 2d line: would have NO reason to accept the outcome…
Bencard on Sun, 24th Feb 2008 1:15 am
correction to correction (sorry), would have no reason NOT to accept the outcome…
hvrds on Sun, 24th Feb 2008 1:25 am
“Marx glories in artificial constructs like “dialectic.â€
Karen Greenberg, Barbarism Lite
According to the New Yorker’s Paul Kramer, here’s what A.F. Miller of the 32nd Volunteer Infantry Regiment wrote in a letter to the Omaha World-Herald in May 1900 from the Philippines about the treatment of a prisoner taken by his unit: “Now, this is the way we give them the water cure. Lay them on their backs, a man standing on each hand and each foot, then put a round stick in the mouth and pour a pail of water in the mouth and nose, and if they don’t give up pour in another pail. They swell up like toads. I’ll tell you it is a terrible torture.”
One American was indeed finally brought to trial for the widespread use of “the water cure” in the Philippines at the turn of the previous century as the Filipino insurgency was suppressed. Captain Edwin Glenn, a judge advocate, supervised such a torture session. For this, he was convicted and sentenced to a “one-month suspension and a fifty-dollar fine.” He retired from the Army in 1919 as a brigadier general.
Many were the American defenses of “the water cure” back then, including the blunt suggestion that, on racial grounds, Filipinos were not “owed the ‘protective’ limits of ‘civilized warfare.’” Many have been the defenses of waterboarding and other forms of torture in the Bush years — among them, the all-but-racially based suggestion that America’s enemies (you know who) don’t deserve to be dealt with according to the laws of civilization, including the Geneva Conventions. Then and now, a relatively small but hardy crew of Americans, in and out of government, protested, wrote, and struggled against such practices.
Hitler and his man drew on the latent anti-semitism embedded in the writings of Martin Luther who railed against the Jews for an entirely different reason.
The NAZI propaganda machine dehumanized the Jews in Germany. But they had fertile ground to do it on.
The poor and destitute are all invisible in the Philippines. They become visible only to the politicos during election times. To some of those who are the haves they are simply the wretched refuse on the streets. Look at Erap running around for photo-ops with the poor to proclaim that they love him. They are all running for the freebies and occasionally he gives away goodies for PR spin.
Instead of refusing to put himself under the jurisdiction of what he called an illegal court, he submitted himself and was convicted. He would have garnered a lot of respect if he stuck to his principles. He blew it big time. GMA has been terribly wounded by recent events. Her time is numbered, 2010 or earlier.
We all deserve “the lucky bitch.”
Corruption will never bring on direct action by the people. In the Philippine context the idea of stealing from the government in many forms is considered an art and better business practice.
Tax evasion and tax avoidance are synonymous. We have all blurred the lines. Look at Lozada. His entire family prospered from it. He is the perfect example of the average educated middle class who sees corruption as normal practice until he saw the his actions being exposed to public scrutiny.
rego on Sun, 24th Feb 2008 1:25 am
Bencard,
Thank you. I totally understand now. Now I have enough reson to believe that subjecting Lozada to LDT seem a most sober way to go over these current drama. I definietly prefer LDT over the letter writing contest, mudslinging, cory sponsored massess and novena and the calls for people power and Gloria resignation.
Bencard on Sun, 24th Feb 2008 1:29 am
brianb, a witness’ testimony is a form of EVIDENCE. it cannot be any more or less “powerful” than any other admitted evidence. i think even “young” lawyers who know their law would tell you that. does that sound stupid to you?
magdiwang on Sun, 24th Feb 2008 1:37 am
Completely Agree 100%. however; would that be even possible in the current state of philippine politics and society? Currently, people with those attributes wont even be elected as barangay captains or even HOA presidents.
Granted a person with idealism is elected and begin to implement a complete overhaul of everything what is wrong in our country. Do you think he/she will survive politically or will he/she immediately compromise realizing that reforms cannot happen overnight. Which leader is better..someone who drastically change the system come hell or high water or somebody who goes slow and works within the system to achieve reforms.
Its counterproductive for our country to replace presidents every how many years knowing fully well that each succeeding one will fail to immediately turn things around. Idealist then ostracize them for not having a backbone to stand up on what is right.
Come to think about it. What if everyone have rallied around our presidents since Marcos and help them institute changes slowly around instead of undermining each and everyone of them. We probably are in first world status.
BrianB on Sun, 24th Feb 2008 1:44 am
Bencard, I just heard a lawyer say that about the necessity of having a witness on criminal trials. Besides, finger prints and DNA are not exactly common forms of evidence here. Never heard of a murder put to jail because of his fingerprints or his DNA found on the scene.
Bencard on Sun, 24th Feb 2008 1:45 am
“tax evasion and tax avoidance are synonymous” hrvds
wrong. tax evasion is willful failure or refusal to pay the taxes due. tax avoidance is using lawful ways to avoid paying, or to reduce, the taxes due, e.g., investing in tax-exempt activities.
The Ca t on Sun, 24th Feb 2008 1:47 am
mlq3 on Sun, 24th Feb 2008 2:02 am
brian, i don’t recall using collective amnesia but i did use official amnesia:
http://www.quezon.ph/?p=1497
jude, you’re welcome to return to my july 2005 column on the president’s resignation. i’ve been clear on the failure of those who have had authority. what i do not advocate is the wholesale liquidation of any portion of our society. collective guilt goes both ways because you can justify the liquidation of a group on the basis of that idea, and one day you too, in turn, could end up the target of liquidation of another group that has categorized you as unfit for continued existence.
The Ca t on Sun, 24th Feb 2008 2:08 am
Agree.
vic on Sun, 24th Feb 2008 2:12 am
When we talk about political oppositions in the country we literally mean political opponents or enemies, instead of one of the Checks and Balances in a Democracy. And yet the enemy will become a partner for expediency. That should have not been the Case.
When the Queen calls on the winning Party to form the Government, the Governor General representing the Queen will address the Main Opposition as the “Loyal Oppositionâ€, a watchdog to the government actions, but a loyal servant to the nation nevertheless. All other oppositions are expected to be loyal likewise. All of them will hit the Government hard on Broken Promises and inactions, but would not shy to co-operate with obviously serious national interest issues. Any hints of wrongdoings in Government are tasked without let up, until the smokes clear. And that is with the enormous help of the Media which every entity may also support or slant to a particular party ideologies, but that is where it stops, and all cards down the table when it comes to wrongdoing by personalities of conspiracy within the Party.
watchful eye on Sun, 24th Feb 2008 2:13 am
“tax evasion and tax avoidance are synonymous†hrvds
tax evasion is willful failure or refusal to pay the taxes due. tax avoidance is using lawful ways to avoid paying, or to reduce, the taxes due, e.g., investing in tax-exempt activities. bencard
Once again, get out of your legal straightjacket. You’re are not taking a midterm test on Taxation.
When Lucio Tan first “evaded†to pay tax according the Tax Court to the tune of 28 billion pesos before interest, and then “avoided†paying it on being found innocent by a lower court judge . . .someone has to check the lifestyle of this judge now as well as the fixcals too . . . the end result is the same . . . LESS MONEY FOR THE COMMUNITY, THE POOR AND THE STATE.
The Ca t on Sun, 24th Feb 2008 2:22 am
The commercial hog farms do not feed their hogs with raw corn. They feed them with hog mash which consists of yellow corn and other ingredients that promote weight gain without too much fats.
It is not just like, isusuga mo yong mga baboy doon sa corn fields o kaya you will bring the corn to the farms. haha
The Ca t on Sun, 24th Feb 2008 2:34 am
Continue dreaming. When you wake up, the truth is still there. They run for public office to protect their business interests.
If Cory Aquino was not the President, do you think Hacienda Luisita will not be exempted from CARP.
UP n student on Sun, 24th Feb 2008 2:53 am
Abe:
I don’t know why you posted items on affirmative action but prefaced it with “..collective guilt”. Here is a sentence from your cut-and-paste.
I agree with the sentence above, but do you? My understanding is the sentence above is something DISAGREEABLE to someone who believes in “collective guilt” in the manner that (I think that) cvj does and some “year-zero” proponents do.
Here are two additional sentences from your cut-and-paste.
Proponents of affirmative action may believe that genuine residual social and economic injustices continue to affect particular groups; and that these injustices should be righted if indeed possible. Beyond the moral arguments for righting injustices, some proponents claim that immediate reparatory action – rather than delayed action or no action – can prevent the social and economic issues from reaching a stage where they become impossible (or greatly more difficult) to repair.
What would you include among the “moral arguments for righting injustices”?
And what would you, a People-Power believer, consider as in-bounds and out-of-bounds for righting injustices, or is it that any means is acceptable considering the ends?
[My worry about some of the year-ZERO collective-guilt-practitioners (embodiment -- PolPot, Hitler) is that they actually believe that injustices can be righted ONLY AFTER their enemies (the Jews (and gypsies) for Hitler; professionals, intellectuals, homosexuals, ethnic Chinese, Buddhist monks and other enemies-of-Khmer Rouge for Polpot) are sent to killing fields.]
Bencard on Sun, 24th Feb 2008 3:53 am
watchful eye, ignoring your idiotic sarcasm, if that judge wrongfully applied the law, he should be dealt with for ignorance (or bribery, as you imply). tan should still be liable for the tax due (and the bribery, if proven). the law is not diminished by its violation. it remains intact.
justice league on Sun, 24th Feb 2008 3:54 am
Watchful eye,
The term tax avoidance doesn’t seem to fit in your example of what happened with Lucio Tan,though you and HVRDS seem to share the idea that there was less tax for the government due to either action of tax evasion and tax avoidance (and likely right).
Can’t really say if my example would be correct but here goes:
Income tax is derived from tax brackets. Lets say one’s taxable income placed him in a higher tax bracket. However the difference between the taxable income and the lower bracket is “manageable”.
So one decided to donate that difference (and probably some more) to an accredited charity which then made the taxable income fall within the lower tax bracket wherein one might be paying less tax plus the amount of the donation against the tax one would have paid if one belonged to the higher tax bracket.
watchful eye on Sun, 24th Feb 2008 4:13 am
What would you include among the “moral arguments for righting injustices�
And what would you, a People-Power believer, consider as in-bounds and out-of-bounds for righting injustices, or is it that any means is acceptable considering the ends? – UP n
UP n,
I submit that institutional injustices could be righted more efficaciously by men and women who have access to the institutional means and resources for righting the injustices.
To illustrate, Mita postulates: “The problem with the political oligarchy still goes back to the voters.â€
Let me then ask Mita: Do you blame a totally dysfunctional Payatas or a sacada family for failing to send the children to Ateneo or UST to learn enough civic virtues and responsibilities?
And we can move from the above extreme: There’s plenty of meaningful exchanges in this blogsite about what the country should do based on the best practices occurring in successful economies, but are those whose decisions really matter listening at all?
So, “What would you include among the ‘moral arguments for righting injustices’� I’ll say it again in this fashion: A system that allows 60 million or so Filipinos to live in less than $2.00 a day has to justify its continued existence; and the main burden of justifying that system or correcting it if it could not be done is upon the laps of those who have the institutional access to the means and resources of correcting or replacing a failing or failed experiment.
On the other had, People Power serves as a sword of Damocles hanging over the head of those who control the reins of the command center of power simply because there is a thin line that divides the lawful exercise of People Power from that of mobocracy that may, according to Ryszard Kapuscinski, “destroy everything in its path.â€
watchful eye on Sun, 24th Feb 2008 4:49 am
Ben, I’m sorry for the sarcasm (but I’m sure it’s not idiotic), I just want to catch you off guard, sometimes. Anyway, all I’m saying is that you can’t be legalistic all the time. I notice that you argue a lot better as citizen Ben than as Atty. Bencard
JL, I’m not even sure if I’m reading hvrds correctly (this man is deep) but I’m really talking more of “consequences” rather than (legal) “definition.”
Kamote on Sun, 24th Feb 2008 5:21 am
I get the feeling we are are going to witness another force ready to be counted.
As per the inquirer editorial said. The Ramos factor is now showing up and trying disengage from the administration. Delivering a scathing speech in front of Mam, clearly shows something to ponder upon. Do it looks like he is scolding a protege? or threatening a somebody who is now turning into a foe?
Lets see, Ermita is a ramos boy, esperon is from asingan like our boy ramos here, and I think those 2 are enough to mention how can the cigar smoking man can wrangle Mams neck.
On the other hand,
Mam is now trying to blame her lieutenants about the whole ZTE mess. This is a dangerous game she is playing. Selling the people who knows what the heck are you doing is not a smart decision. I guess we will start seeing another Lozada soon.
The Ca t on Sun, 24th Feb 2008 5:35 am
Mandaragat on Sun, 24th Feb 2008 6:14 am
“Swollen in head, weak in legs, sharp in tongue but empty in belly.” Mao Tse Tung
Does this resonates the Philippines?
benign0 on Sun, 24th Feb 2008 6:21 am
Check out this video:
A message to Cory Aquino and the Filipino people:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=CVib9vxlrvU
The Ca t on Sun, 24th Feb 2008 7:44 am
Now, now justice league, I may have short memory lapses but never did I write that these two ladies were heroines.
This is what I wrote:
I admired Singson’s secretary though when she testified in the Senate. She was straightforward and never was intimidated by the questioning of the veteran defense lawyers. Hindi siya umiyak. Neither did Clarissa.
These I wrote after my impression about whistleblowers which included Singson. These two ladies were not whistleblowers. They were just witnesses. YOur “hero’ was a self-confessed corrupt turned witness with all the drama that he can muster.
If you watched ” The BONES” last night, you would have seen how even an expert testifying in court is advised what to wear, how to project and what words to use in trying to connect with the jury.
And if you’ve seen “Monk”, you will learn what kind of picture the photojournalist take to sell photos. Like the Vulture and the Kid.
I would like to see that invisible director in this teleserye.
Raine Subijano on Sun, 24th Feb 2008 9:10 am
Again, I’m Raine, a student from the Institute of Political Economy of the University of Asia and the Pacific. In commemoration to the EDSA Revolution, our university has a tradition to organize what we call as “EDSA Week”. The chosen theme of the Institute this year is: “Edsa Revolution: A False Promise?”, and we have organized three activities in this regard.
One of the activities of the EDSA Week would be the Speaker Series, which would be held on February 26, 12:30pm-2:00pm at the Dizon Auditorium of the university (University of Asia and the Pacific, Pearl Drive, Ortigas Center, Pasig City 1605). The speakers of the event would be as follows:
Mr. Ramon Casiple
Executive Director for Institute for Political and Electoral Reform (IPER)
Mr. Manuel Quezon III
Columnist/Journalist for the Philippine Daily Inquirer
Host for ANC’s “The Explainer”
Mr. Clement Camposano
Professor of History, University of Asia and the Pacific
Again, the Speaker Series would be at the Dizon Auditorium, 12:30-2:00pm (and can be extended) at the University of Asia and the Pacific. This event is open to public. Thus, is EDSA Revolution a false promise? Hear it from the speakers as they evaluate whether the promise of Edsa Revolution has been fulfilled, still in the process of being one, or the contrary.
If you have any questions or concerns, just post in this thread and I would do my best to reply right away. Many thanks!
Kabayan on Sun, 24th Feb 2008 9:21 am
A Reminder: Gloria Resign Blogswarm schedule Today or Tomorrow
Mita on Sun, 24th Feb 2008 9:42 am
Guilt. Whether it’s individual or collective, the guilt will come after acknowledgment of the violation and responsibility, right? guilt, in the non-legal sense, is born of heeding to conscience – which is a choice and does not come automatically for all.
how can we expect collective guilt in our society when violations of moral standards are the norm rather than an abnormality? can we really expect a group lumped together with all the benefits of wealth and power to acknowledge guilt? then there’s punishment of course…who has the moral authority to give out punishment?
even in the justice system, once convicted of a crime, an individual can say he didn’t do it, and some have been found to be stating the truth – AFTER they were executed or even pardoned.
guilt can lead to reparation true…but guilt, especially if merely self-inflicted, can lead to irrational behavior like inaction or overcompensation.
Let’s distinguish, people acting on the basis of their guilt will cause a different outcome from people acting on the basis of their INTEGRITY.
Integrity is worthier of discussion. It should be the top agenda in the call for reforms and a revolution. Integrity is what will make a long-term difference, not the guilt.
Junk the guilt.
UP n student on Sun, 24th Feb 2008 9:49 am
To watchful eye: I will put on a “the responsibility belongs to the citizens” mindset, and this is what happens:
1. “…that institutional injustices could be righted more efficaciously by men and women who have access to the institutional means and resources for righting the injustices.”
— makes sense. These men and women who have access… include mayors, congressman, and senators, and we-the-voters have done poorly, haven’t we, in electing (every so many years) the representatives who will right the injustices.
2. “To illustrate, Mita postulates: “The problem with the political oligarchy still goes back to the voters.†”
…us the voters who repeatedly elect the same political oligarchy each and every election time.
3. “…. but are those whose decisions really matter listening at all? ”
3.a We-the-voters failed, didn’t we, in understanding what makes these congressmen and senators tick (what their philosophical and personal priorities are, where their hearts lie), and our elected representatives don’t quite vote for us. But we-the-voters should do better next time.
3.b Congressmen/senators do make decisions (e.g. impeachment) and the congressmen/senators that we-the-voters should elect are those who exert consistent effort to ask us-the-constituents about our thoughts and suggestions.
3.c We-the-voters should should exert persistent effort to reach the ears of these decision-makers (elected officials as well as the officers of media-companies, civic organizations, religious organizations, universities and colleges).
So, “A system that allows 60 million or so Filipinos to live in less than $2.00 a day has to justify its continued existence; and the main burden of justifying that system or correcting it if it could not be done is upon the laps of those who have the institutional access to the means and resources of correcting or replacing a failing or failed experiment.”
On the other had, People Power serves as a sword of Damocles hanging over the head of those who control the reins of the command center of power simply because there is a thin line that divides the lawful exercise of People Power from that of mobocracy that may, according to Ryszard Kapuscinski, “destroy everything in its path.â€
If we-the-voters had carefully vetted the candidates and selected better so that the leaders that get to sit in Malacanang, the Supreme Court, Congress (plus mayoral- or gubernatorial seats) are less corruptible, the “changing-of-the-guards” should happen in normal fashion (i.e. during elections) and PeoplePower is a non-requirement.
——-
watchful-eye: I think the people that you say have more “…access to the institutional means and resources for righting the injustices” will include the CBCP leadership, the priests and pastors, nuns and teachers, the Iskolars ng Bayan from the various UP campuses, the graduates from AIM, StLouis University/Baguio, LaSalle, Ateneo-de-Davao and others. So should these men/women-with-access have more votes-per-head than the Payatas-voter or the sacada-farmer-voter (to reflect the leadership responsibility)? Alas, the Constitution specifies OneMan-OneVote.
UP n student on Sun, 24th Feb 2008 10:00 am
Watchful-eye: I think I understand from where you come from with the premise. So yes, those who are able should do better… and more power to the Among Ed and Doc-Bautista “wannabe’s” who, believing that they can provide better leadership to Filipinos, then pour money, effort and soul to get themselves elected into mayoral, gubernatorial and other seats of responsibility.
Mita on Sun, 24th Feb 2008 10:31 am
watchful eye,
why blame anyone? that’s just the way it is…instead of blaming, we can actually do something about it so the next generation has a better chance. like i said before, there’s a bigger picture. we have to remember, every act and decision we make has a ripple effect.
it’s not just about the NOW, but the future…and not just for us. if we keep thinking the old way, we’ll eventually sink the one ship we all find ourselves in.
I hope that is NOT what we are striving for.
cvj on Sun, 24th Feb 2008 10:40 am
Brianb (at 1:09am), the logical fallacy is Appeal to Consequences or argumentum ad consequentiam.
cvj on Sun, 24th Feb 2008 10:47 am
You are assuming that the above, when given monopoly (or oligopoly) of voting rights are capable of upholding the interests of the disenfrancised Payatas-voter or the sacada-farmer-voter. On the contrary, I think that one thing we have established over here is that the people ‘who have access to the institutional means and resources for righting the injustices‘ are also the ones who are largely guiltless and blind to class conflict and the injustices arising from this.
We don’t have to go far to look for examples. You yourself were a UP Student and yet you seem to be as guiltlessly burgis as they come. I’m sure there are a lot more UP Students like you.
Mita just said, “why blame anyone? that’s just the way it is”
Even Silent Waters, who means to be helpful to his workers, seems to be clueless on how to go about doing it.
As Tim Yap famously declared:
So why should the ’sacada-farmer-voters’ and ‘payatas-voters’ give up their right the vote in favor of those who would not, or are otherwise incapable of looking out for their interests?
Bencard on Sun, 24th Feb 2008 10:49 am
watchful eye, i argue better as citizen ben than atty. bencard? coming from you, i take that as a compliment. but why do you say that? have you, or anyone you know, ever refuted successfully any of my “legal” arguments in this blog? i’m not being egotistical. i just want to know where you’re coming from with that statement.
Mita on Sun, 24th Feb 2008 10:55 am
oh gee, how unbelievably conveninent. yeahhh… i said that but i didn’t stop there…
justice league on Sun, 24th Feb 2008 10:55 am
Ca T,
Interestingly enough, there are 2 sentences in your previous post above your self quote in the archived thread.
Do Acsa or Clarissa fit in those 2 sentences or do they not in what a “hero” should or should not be?
Furthermore, I can’t really say much at this time about Clarissa Ocampo just being a witness or actual whistleblower; but from most indications, Acsa is a “whistleblower”.
And sorry, I never had the pleasure of watching “Bones” and “Monk” lost my favor in lieu of other programs.
cvj on Sun, 24th Feb 2008 11:02 am
Yes, Mita. Thanks for that. You also said ‘junk the guilt‘.
Mita on Sun, 24th Feb 2008 11:06 am
cvj, if silent waters seems blind to you…what about you? what are you doing about your guilt that will benefit the workers and us all?
blame everyone else and call for their annihilation? take responsibility by calling for gma’s resignation? espousing band-aid solutions like collecting on collective guilt and staging another people power?
cvj on Sun, 24th Feb 2008 11:09 am
Mita, i’m also a worker.
UP n student on Sun, 24th Feb 2008 11:14 am
cvj: Well articulated!!!!
I’m sure there are a lot more UP Students like you.
…
Even Silent Waters, who means to be helpful to his workers, seems to be clueless on how to go about doing it.
…
So why should the ’sacada-farmer-voters’ and ‘payatas-voters’ give up their right the vote in favor of those who would not, or are otherwise incapable of looking out for their(the sacada-farmer’s) interests?
The above-blogpost writer who put on a “the responsibility belongs to the citizens†mindset makes a point, doesn’t he, that every citizen should make time to exercise his/her vote wisely and diligently?
I then commented :
I should have added… “also to the Manny-Villar wannabe’s”. Nouveau riche, as opposed to landed gentry. And from real estate…. I like real estate.
UP n student on Sun, 24th Feb 2008 11:23 am
cvj: One of these days, I will put in a blogpost entry where I put on a ‘…mindset of a Year-Zero collective guilt power-to-the-farmer”. I don’t know if I’ll model after Mugabe or PolPot
(though PolPot, I believe, is the original Year-Zero power-to-the-farmer person).
cvj on Sun, 24th Feb 2008 11:31 am
UPn, the difference between your view and that of Watchful Eye’s is that you insist on limiting the exercise of democratic action to voting for our representatives during elections while Watchful Eye makes room for collective action outside that venue (aka People Power). He also acknowledges the injustice of the system while you seem to share Mita’s that’s just the way it is and junk the guilt viewpoints. Your definition of social responsibility is then shaped by such a guiltless mindset.
cvj on Sun, 24th Feb 2008 11:34 am
UPn, fair enough. I’d be interested in hearing your strawman characterization of my position.
BrianB on Sun, 24th Feb 2008 12:04 pm
CVJ,
He, I knew that. That was for effect. Everything is easily a click away nowadays. On wikipedia, there’s an entry on logical fallacies.
I think Manolo is afraid he’s going to be “liquidated” with the rest but “liquidation” of lives isn’t really what you mean, right?
cvj on Sun, 24th Feb 2008 12:20 pm
Brianb, you’re right, that’s not what i meant. I’m definitely against the wholesale liquidation of an entire class because i believe in the sanctity of human life. I also believe that even warlords and oligarchs can be enlightened just like the defeated Chiang Kai Shek who instituted genuine land reform in Taiwan. Being from the middle class, i’m also afraid of being ‘liquidated’ which is the point of contention between my position and that of Devilsadvc8’s Bastille scenario. Acknowledging the existence of Collective guilt does not mean having to automatically accept Collective punishment.
Mita on Sun, 24th Feb 2008 12:35 pm
cvj, so what’s your point about collective guilt then? we all wallow in our guilt…then what? you mentioned accountability..didn’t you?
you disappoint, you will stoop so low to make a point and prove yourself right – underquote, misquote, kinda like lying by ommission – in the same thread too!
i have to say, you’re shortchanging yourself, blinded by your guilt perhaps? i’d be surprised if i was the only one who sees that.
yes, junk your guilt and channel that useless emotion to something constructive. spare us.
btw, from what you called my “uninteresting point” about truth in the last post, you disproved your own statement…i warned you, but you didn’t listen…you proved yourself wrong by continually making comments on that very same uninteresting point…
UP n student on Sun, 24th Feb 2008 12:45 pm
BrianB & cvj: I’m glad you highlighted that meaningful difference. That there are leaders, that there are sympathizers/believers, plus we have to add the apathetic enablers. So the democracy has to handle the presence of an overseas-cvj probably a sympathetic enabler to the YearZero implementation team along with a overseas-benign0 sympathetic or apathetic enabler to GMA’s continued residence in Malacanang.
cvj on Sun, 24th Feb 2008 12:48 pm
Mita, my point is that collective guilt exists. However, its very existence does not automatically justify collective punishment. There are better alternatives available both from a moral and practical standpoint. It’s kind of similar to what Manolo mentioned in connection with separate issue (Erap’s plunder) that what people want is restitution not retribution.
BTW, in the previous thread, what i described as uninteresting was your fallback position, not your original point which you tried to weasel away from.
benign0 on Sun, 24th Feb 2008 12:49 pm
Btw, check out this enhanced video of ‘A Message to Cory Aquino and Filipinos” here:
youtube.com/watch?v=h02V6b5rw0Y
Cheers!
UP n student on Sun, 24th Feb 2008 12:59 pm
cvj: I’m glad Mita again asks you about your understanding of collective guilt. Maybe you’ll say something to lessen my distrust of him who judges “Erap’s grandchildren… guilty for Erap’s sin.”
And “…warlords and oligarchs can be enlightened” triggers in me a view of brainwashing or the collective farms where the enemies of the state are re-educated.
I know you made clear to Brian that you really just a “sympathetic enabler”, but it does not seem to make my reaction to you that much less.
UP n student on Sun, 24th Feb 2008 1:10 pm
And you are the cvj who responded:
Supremo, you mean financially? If Mar Roxas or Noynoy Aquino somehow became destitute then i suppose that absolves them.
when supremo asked :
cvj,
What if the child did not actually benefited from or inherited the fruits of the sin?
cvj on Sun, 24th Feb 2008 1:11 pm
That means that you’re doing good out of the goodness of your hearts (aka charity). It’s a comfortable position for the giver to be in but it does not capture the actual context in which our Society perpetuates poverty.
In the case of Chiang Kai-Shek, the enlightenment came as a result of his own realization and is not a product of any re-education camp. He feared that the peasants in Taiwan would do what those in the mainland did, so he implemented land reform as a matter of self-preservation. Maybe your distrust of me will lessen if you see me as Chiang Kai-Shek and not Mao (or Pol Pot).
Silent Waters on Sun, 24th Feb 2008 1:12 pm
From Mr. Babes Romualdez article: an excerpt. Just Food for thought for the people here…
“The problem with Filipinos is that oftentimes, we give more loyalty to one person rather than to country. But what is even more dangerous are those people who think they have a monopoly of patriotism, and that they — and only they — know what is right and what direction the country should take. More often than not, these people are more consumed with hatred and vengeance rather than patriotism. For a Christian nation, we seem to have a lot of that anger today.”
BrianB on Sun, 24th Feb 2008 1:38 pm
What is right and wrong should be discussed openly and not hidden behind opaque answers like what Mr. Romualdez has given. What is right, a Comelec officer acting as go-between in a government contract? Hello Garci.
Ang hirap sa Pilipino alam na alam talaga nating manloko nng kapwa pilipino. How such obscure logic and such oblique rationality can even get published is beyond me. They want calm? Why don’t they start making sense.
justice league on Sun, 24th Feb 2008 1:40 pm
BenignO,
Watched your endorsed video.
The vid ended with the advise of “use the proper channels to reach your representative” and “next time vote for the right people”
They sound a lot like your previous recommendations wherein I queried you regarding going to our representatives in view of our lack of the power of recall over them and the issue of the strong nature of the multiparty system here. I don’t think you answered it back then.
(I don’t think you would have come out with this video without preparing to encounter such a question again; so I’m prepared to be amazed/dumfounded by your incoming reply)
The initial part regarding the absence of power of recall is easy enough to understand but regarding the multiparty system; in an example of 5 candidates wherein 4 happen to be “right” but 1 happens to be “wrong”; there is all possiblity that the “wrong” candidate could win with as little as 20+% vote.
At which you might wish to revise your recommendation to “next time vote for the right people WHO WILL WIN!”
But then like I stated; you’re obviously prepared for such issues so I’m very much anticipating.
BrianB on Sun, 24th Feb 2008 1:44 pm
May Romualdez is not Catholic, Catholics are a guilty and angry people. And I don’t even know if he is anti or pro-Gloria and he already rubs me the wrong way. Yes, cold-blooded murders and big-time thieves are often calm, they sleep seven hours a day and smirk when the hungry get vent off. That’s nothing to be proud about. Genteel behavior in the Philippines is practically another word for hypocrisy.
BrianB on Sun, 24th Feb 2008 1:45 pm
I mean guilt-ridden, not guilty.
fiball on Sun, 24th Feb 2008 2:19 pm
Ehem, Babes Romualdez is just that — a babe with respect to having a brain, make that a shallow brain. Shallow, shallow. And a leaden heart. Shallow thinking and leaden feelings — an awesome combination that has perpetuated injustice, greed and corruption of the elite in this coutnry.
“I sleep 7 hours a night” — GMA on calls for resignation. Maria Capra, the utter height of crassness, not far from, Marie Antoinette’s quip, “Let them eat cake.”
It’s true the most cold blooded criminals sleep so well at night, slumber in aircondioned lairs in their gated villages and are not prone to emotional thinking like many who have been systematically disenfranchised, degraded for many, many generations.
magdiwang on Sun, 24th Feb 2008 2:23 pm
I thought cool, calm and calculating personalities are more effective leaders as they always stay three steps ahead of the competetition. They use more brains than brawn. On the other hand loud, brash, angry personalities tend to be arrogant who are mediocre leaders as they are so overcomed by their emotions without thinking resulting in poor decision making.
fiball on Sun, 24th Feb 2008 2:46 pm
magdiwang,
cool, calm and calculating doesn’t mean that you don’t become angry or loud or at times. people believe their leaders who feel with them. that what is you call empathy. conversely, warm and emotional personalities such as ronald reagan or bill clinton have top notch brains, meaning they could be cool and calculating with their decisions. it doesn’t always mean an either or. but surely, shallow thinking and leaden heart which the tenant in malacanang has is the stuff that makes intellectuals and masses united at this point in time against her.
vic on Sun, 24th Feb 2008 3:15 pm
Same with the Fraudster Conrad Black who called asst. state attorneys prosecuting his case, “Jewish Nazis”, forgettin he himself is Jewish. Here is a man, so intellegent, so wealthy by birth, yet perhaps the most arrogant yet can Charm his way to the highest civilian Honour granted citizens of Canada, the Order of Canada, a Lordship Peerage by the Queen (he had to give up his Citizenship to get this one) and incuding a Trip to Jail soon..still appealing his Jail sentence in Chicago..
Mita on Sun, 24th Feb 2008 3:34 pm
brian, there isn’t a specific right and wrong. an individual has to make up HIS mind about HIS right and wrong. you don’t need an answer from babe romualdez who was respectful enough of our intelligence not to offer one…
Mita on Sun, 24th Feb 2008 3:44 pm
cvj,
You really have no idea what charity means until you are on the receiving side of charity. I’ve been there. it’s appreciated to this day. and you’re wrong, the giver was more in an uncomfortable position than I was. Please, before you make judgments about charity…try and see what it’s like on the other side of the fence.
vic on Sun, 24th Feb 2008 4:32 pm
Mita, I did volunteer works for A charitable org. here for a long time, giving services to the seniors and I agree that there were moments that you feel as the giver to be uncomfortable and lacking. but if you can only measure the appreciations of those on the receiving end in inches and meters, there won’t be enough there are to measures them. It is an experience worth more than most..
cvj on Sun, 24th Feb 2008 5:23 pm
Mita, i am not arguing against charity as long as it does not accord the giver an unwarranted sense of entitlement. It’s good to see that your benefactor had the right attitude.
nash on Sun, 24th Feb 2008 5:27 pm
“”How can you cancel the night before when you are negotiating with a foreign country?,” – GMA
Wow she really has poor leadership skills. What a stupid comment.
The Equalizer on Sun, 24th Feb 2008 5:35 pm
Will the standard lines still work???
1)”Where is the evidence?Those are just allegations.”
2)”We should consider the case closed and focus on the issues that really matter to the people”
3)”Tne political noise is only in Manila.Manila is not the Philippines!”
4)”This is just the work of a few politicians!”
5)”Pananagutin natin sila. Galit ang tao sa kurakot. Ganon din ako!
6)”Ang aking pamilya ay hindi nagnenegosyo sa pamahalaan”
7)”Ako ang Pangulo. Wala ng iba!”
8)”Who would invest in the Philippines if people power would happen? ”
9)”Let’s move on!”
10)”I have no shame!”
Take your pick.
Kabayan on Sun, 24th Feb 2008 7:13 pm
None of the standard lines will work anymore Equalizer
UP n student on Sun, 24th Feb 2008 10:01 pm
Some personality characteristics of a Year-Zero sympathizer or enabler:
1. junk your guilt and channel that useless emotion to something constructive. – Mita
—That means that you’re doing good out of the goodness of your hearts (aka charity). -cvj
—”Mita, i am not arguing against charity as long as it does not accord the giver an unwarranted sense of entitlement.” – cvj
2. supremo: What if the child did not actually benefited from or inherited the fruits of the sin?
—you mean financially? If Mar Roxas or Noynoy Aquino somehow became destitute then i suppose that absolves them. – cvj
3. “….I’m definitely against the wholesale liquidation of an entire class because i believe in the sanctity of human life. I also believe that even warlords and oligarchs can be enlightened …
Being from the middle class, i’m also afraid of being ‘liquidated’ which is the point of contention between my position and that of Devilsadvc8’s Bastille scenario. Acknowledging the existence of Collective guilt does not mean having to automatically accept Collective punishment.” — cvj
4. Mlq3: cjv, you advocate the concept of collective guilt?
“yes as far as social and historic injustices are concerned.” – cvj
5. UP n asks about the guilt of grandchildren (of a plunderer).
–”I don’t think Erap is ‘absolved’ (nor are his grandchildren).” – cvj
6. “i don’t favor a ‘year zero’ (for reasons Kabayan mentioned at 9:18pm). I prefer a more targeted approach.”–cvj
Karl Garcia on Sun, 24th Feb 2008 10:25 pm
From such a brilliant person saying that ccmpetetiveness is the wrong point of focus and instead productivity.
And one is to business and one is to economics.
Is it not, that microeconomics focususes on the operation of a component of the national economy?
Isn’t business a component of national economy through individual firms.
granting that the macroeconimic indicators are the one’s we look at;they can not indicate anything without the individual businesses.
Please, correct me if wrong.
Now on collective guilt.That is how we look at things , th us treated arabs terribly since 911;it is just a damn whole blame game at its highest form.We have it here the ubusan ng lahi,kahit sa mga kaaway sa politika,away sa lupa etc,although based on what I saw above in the wikioedia’s definition it sounded more complex than what I mentioned.Collective guilt advocacy is really dangerous,but it is sort of human nature na ata eh.
Ang tagal mawala stigma, a few years ago I saw japanese tourists crying at a war museum at singapore having a different form of collective guilt,naguilty sila eh..
also di ba me pinatay na Madrigal na napagkamalang Hapon sa China in protest of Koizumi’s presence there?
ramrod on Sun, 24th Feb 2008 10:46 pm
Whatever action we Filipinos decide to take eventually I hope we do it soon but we also need to be rational with our decision.
Inasmuch as I would like to go out and shout GLORIA RESIGN along with the patriots, I am limited to the usual excuses of meetings, travels, reports, and basically OFW issues.
Although I have always clarified my stand, sometimes when you try to get more involved, the line gets blurred-especially when you have friends in both sides of the line. On the one hand, everything is clear, the enemy is defined – Gloria and her corrupt minions (short term), patronage politics and corruption (long term). But on the other end, there are also real soldiers, PNP officers that staunchly believe in defending the constitution and the chain of command. I know that most of these officers are not corrupt at all, but firmly believe that they are doing their duty and will spill their blood for it. What if Gloria sticks it out, and the outrage has reached critical mass? Devil’s scary “Bastille” scenario would mean bloodshed on both sides. Then again, have you ever seen men (or women) injured by bullets, bolos, knives, metal pipes, or blunt heavy objects? Its not a pretty sight more so if you knew the victims. I have no appetite for violence and bloodshed when it means Filipino against Filipino, brother against brother, its meaningless in the end.
I’m not saying NO to PEOPLE POWER, but we must also measure the cost. Its not the lost of investments, or downfall of the economy, or destruction of our institutions I’m worried about but the LOSS OF HUMAN LIVES, meaningful or not.
I as well as many like me can only do so much, to reassure friends of moral support and restraint from being judgmental.
Moments like these force people to go down on their knees and pray – yes even those who lost their religions like me, I hope that God will still listen…
ramrod on Sun, 24th Feb 2008 10:47 pm
Something on the Oligarchy issue.
http://disini.i.ph/blogs/disini/2005/02/09/jose-almonte-on-economic-liberalization-political-freedom/
ramrod on Sun, 24th Feb 2008 10:49 pm
Manolo,
I posted a link form Jose Almonte’s blog but its awaiting moderation.
ramrod on Sun, 24th Feb 2008 10:55 pm
karl garcia,
Re competition, or competitiveness and where the focus should be – productivity. I really can’t say with much confidence how economics should be, as I’m not an economist. Being a foot soldier in sales and marketing, we just look at the bottomline, “did we make money or not?” But I’m still interested in how economics fits in the whole picture or whether a thorough knowledge of it will help me do a better job? Is it worth taking a post graduate course in it?
cvj on Sun, 24th Feb 2008 11:42 pm
Ramrod, my guess is that it won’t help much in your job in sales and marketing. In my discussions with Anthony Scalia and Silent Waters, both businessmen, they have proven that one can be a successful in business without knowing much economics.
Where it would help though (at your age which is close to mine) is to be more conscious of your underlying economic philosophy that you follow. I also find it useful in detecting BS from the current government and in determining whether what hvrds, devilsadvc8, Brianb and the others here (and in other forums) make sense.
UP n student on Sun, 24th Feb 2008 11:48 pm
To Karl Garcia:
This is my position on collective guilt.
But firstly, here is why, to me, one has to be clear with the starting premise. A correct starting position may not make the work of making progress (e.g. justice, correcting existing iniquities) any easier, but a correct starting position makes it harder to make grievous mistakes.
It is easier to unleash the power of the State (or of a mob) onto the grandchildren of the grandchildren of a wrongful if you believe in collective guilt. Forget the oligarchy — think about this “… the Jews under whose hands Jesus Christ died!!!” and you where collective guilt can unleash religious bloody warfare. It is easier to unleash war-to-annihilation against the MILF for SuperFerry14 if you believe in collective guilt.
Look again at cvj’s posts and you may notice that cvj flows effortlessly into seeking atonement from any and all progenies of the Roxas and Aquino bloodline. “..absolved only when they are all destitute”, cvj says. This concept called rule of law actually says one should not do that — judge guilty the grandchildren of the wrongful. “Collective guilt is true” and “innocent until proven guilty” call the other a liar.
So are today’s Japanese “not guilty” for World War II? I don’t believe in collective guilt, so the Japanese roommate I had several years ago did not owe me then, and does not owe me now a single yen. BUT this same Japanese — in particular the Japanese government of yesterday, today, and tomorrow — owes the world for World War II. The Japanese government (and all governments, come to think of it) owes the world the preservation of the truth. This to me means that China in particular, has a right to denounce Japan should Japan modify their elementary- and high-school textbooks in a manner that belittles the damage done by Japan during World War II.
“Collective guilt is true” and “innocent until proven guilty” consistently call the other a liar.
ramrod on Sun, 24th Feb 2008 11:48 pm
cvj,
Thanks. For a moment there I felt inadequate.
I watched Jose Almonte being interviewed lat night by Eddie Villanueva, he had an interesting definition of Oligarchs, unfortunately I couldn’t remember how he phrased it exactly but it goes beyond “Old Rich” families. I’m trying to look for material in the internet.
UP n student on Mon, 25th Feb 2008 12:03 am
Collective guilt is condemnatory in practice. It IS NOT the year-2000 American tourist feeling sick to his stomach after viewing the Hiroshima damage, muttering “I feel appalled at what we Americans have done!” It IS the year-2000 Tagalog spitting on the face of a Muslim-beggar near Plaza Miranda for SuperFerry 14 as the Tagalog mutters “… You are worthless scum for what you have done!!!”. It is condemning Erap’s grandchildren and their children after that for being who they are.
ramrod on Mon, 25th Feb 2008 12:08 am
“Indeed, the Philippine political economy has long favored the interests of major families at the expense of national developmental objectives. Although the roots of their socioeconomic power can be traced to the development of landed elites in the 19th century, it was in the American colonial period that major families emerged as a national oligarchy, able to dominate the country’s political and administrative apparatus and shape it to their own ends. Even as new entrants have continually expanded the ranks of this oligarchy– and familial economic interests have diversified considerably throughout the postwar years (beyond primarily agriculture to include commerce, manufacturing, services, and finance)–the business success and failure of family conglomerates has depended to a large extent on gaining favorable access to political power. When so dominated by the elite, mainstream politics becomes a particularistic scramble for the spoils in which ideological differences and coherent interest-based political groupings rarely play a major role. In combating these patterns of privilege, the Ramos reformers declared their determination to “level the playing field” and promote a process of development beneficial to the nation as a whole.
Perhaps the boldest initiative of the Ramos administration has been its attacks on the “cartels and monopolies” of major oligarchic family firms that have long had a stranglehold over key segments of the national economy. The first target, a moribund and inefficient telecommunications industry, has been transformed by new competition and now serves as the model for the reform of other sectors.” -
Paul D. Hutchcroft
November 1996
http://www.asiasociety.org/publications/au_philippines.html
ramrod on Mon, 25th Feb 2008 12:14 am
UP n student,
Would you be willing to forgive the descendant of the man who was responsible for raping your great grandmother in front of your great grandfather causing his suicide later on and resulted to the loss of his business, property, and dignity? Will you be able to forgive him when you are now a beggar when you see him an arrogant affluent bastard bullying you?
Purely hypothetical of course, but would you?
nash on Mon, 25th Feb 2008 12:30 am
A very Asian trait that is counterproductive and downright moronic: Hiya or “Saving Face”
“She (GMA) said she could not immediately call it off because it would put the Philippines and China in an embarrassing situation.”
- What could be more embarrassing than not to have acted quickly on a dodgy deal????
UP n student on Mon, 25th Feb 2008 12:35 am
ramrod: There are people who can forgive and there people who can not forgive.
Now ace did send this;
2 Kings 14:6
… The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, nor the children be put to death for the fathers; but every man shall be put to death for his own sin.
——-
But your question is easier to answer. It is understandable to be hateful against an arrogant bullying bastard.
cvj on Mon, 25th Feb 2008 12:38 am
UPn, collective guilt is just a corollary of national pride. For example, if the Americans are able to take credit for liberating Europe in World War 2, then they ought to accept the blame for decimating the Native American population.
You cannot put ‘collective guilt‘ in opposition to ‘innocent against proven guilty‘ because the judgment of guilt is something that is rendered after careful deliberation, although unlike offenses committed by individuals, such deliberation is usually done outside the court of law. Anyway, if you’re worried about judgment without thinking, then what you should focus on is racism and other forms of prejudice.
Where we agree on is in rejecting collective punishment as well as opposing racism and other forms of prejudice.
Ramrod, thanks for that. While the Ramos administration was right in identifying the pathological nature of the oligarchy (something the Marxists and, of course Marcos, have already identified long ago btw), it made the mistake of emphasizing a solution that involved attacking the “cartels and monopolies” and “level the playing field”. As hvrds described above, in the more successful economies, there is an element of “coddling the oligarchy“.
UP n student on Mon, 25th Feb 2008 12:42 am
And ramrod: If you are faced with a very rich arrogant bastard bully who seeks payback because he believes your great grandfather raped his great grandmother…. the answer is the same. Understandable for you to be hateful. And yes… be prepared to defend yourself.
The Ca t on Mon, 25th Feb 2008 1:08 am
Ramrod, my guess is that it won’t help much in your job in sales and marketing. In my discussions with Anthony Scalia and Silent Waters, both businessmen, they have proven that one can be a successful in business without knowing much economics.
When a businessman strategize to capture more market by lowering its price, he is actually using economics.
Microeconomics is the study of production, (That’s manufacturing firms for you) distribution (that’s channels of distribution for you) and consumption of goods (that’s Sales for you, so what is this talk about separating economis from business and ruling out competition.Economic analysis is made possible by studying the business cycle.
A businessman with no economic background may in fact is applying economics without him knowing it. Studying the market will make him consider the demographic factors in targeting the market. That’s economics for you. Tell me about a business executive or a businessman who would not plan based on the information about the economic acitivites of a country.
COuntries do compete that is why they set up quotas and trade barriers.
magdiwang on Mon, 25th Feb 2008 1:18 am
I sincerely hope so.
Where did it lead us from the last people power revolution? Nowhere and nothing has changed. It just perpetuated a rotten political system where patronage politics, warlordism, oligarchic monopolies, unfettered corruption, cuurupted media, and nepotism rule the day. Do you think another change of leadership with even the best of intentions will be able to stump this systemic ills overnight. I dont think so. Since the downfall of FM, when did you see us as a people rally behind the flag and give any of our presidents a chance to work for real reforms.
We always demanded of them to create us an utopian government which everybody knows is impossible. They were all busy putting out fires for their own survival wasting precious momentum on our economy. Reforms takes time and if we only channel all our energies in trying to change the system within our constitutional framework instead of undermining it every step of the way. We probably have made significant headway in our quest for good governance. The cost of replacing the president right now is immeasurable on the overall scheme of things.
BrianB on Mon, 25th Feb 2008 1:24 am
“brian, there isn’t a specific right and wrong. an individual has to make up HIS mind about HIS right and wrong. you don’t need an answer from babe romualdez who was respectful enough of our intelligence not to offer one”
My God, you’re not from UP, are you. Specific right and wrong? Mita, thnk about what you’ve written and please rephrase it to convey exactly what you mean.
BrianB on Mon, 25th Feb 2008 1:29 am
“You really have no idea what charity means until you are on the receiving side of charity. ”
Nothing wrong with charity, unless it gets in the way of establishing social welfare. Charity have becomes the “Indulgences” of our era. Thieves, land grabbers and labor abusers give to charity in the attempt to erase their corrupt practices. I repeat, I agree with the Church’s principle of accepting charity without prejudice to the charity giver, but this does not mean the thief who gave up 10% of his loot to charity is forgiven.
BrianB on Mon, 25th Feb 2008 1:30 am
Mita, I know utang na loob is a big deal to Filipinos, but then its inverse, vengeance should also be given its equal legitimacy, don’t you think?
hvrds on Mon, 25th Feb 2008 1:46 am
“Countries do compete that is why they set up quotas and trade barreirs.”
Obviously the state protects its oligarchs from competition from other oligarchs who are also protected by their governments?
Depending on their protectionist policies which lies under whether they are lite mercantilists of heavy mercantilists. (Mercantilism being the ideology.)
So oligarchs depending on what stage of development their societies are will always leverage their mercantilist tendencies to protect their interests.
In the case of the Philipine landlord elite they will use nationalist provisions to turn mercnatilist policies into rent and rent seeking activities.
But what the uniformed forget is the fact that in modern societies fiscal and monetary polcies which lies at the heart of any nation state is denationalized then the state begins to disappear. it becomes simply the pimp for foreign capital. FVR,JDV, Big Mike, GMA are simply pimping Philippine resources and labor to foreign capital.
The landlords do the same. rent and rent seeking becomes the main economic activity.
Look at GMA’s supporters – Donald Dee a former quota landlord. Serge Luis Ortiz – a common bonded wharehouse, Noemi Saludo (Her middlename is Liwag of Liwag textile mills)also a common bonded warehouse landlord,who is also a top officer of PCCI and mother of Ricardo Saludo.
So if countries do compete by using reactive or proactive mercantilist policies then that means that Mr. Market is a myth.
So Joe Al and Neri are bunch of con men by trying to say that to break the hold of oligarchs we have to use Mr. Market.
So we can stop referring to Iraq as simply Iraq but refer to it as occupied former Iraq. Pro active mercantiist policies also means protecting the very resources that are vital for a nations economic health.
The most pro active form of mercantilism is imperialism.
It is easier to understand economics systems and structures when we understandand and accept the global political economic reality.
So if a country would wish to determine their own destiny then it would mean that they would have to isolate their fiscal and monetary policies and nationalize their monetary system.
The ultimate form of mercantilism to defend against imperialism is monetary nationalism.
hvrds on Mon, 25th Feb 2008 2:00 am
“Perhaps the boldest initiative of the Ramos administration has been its attacks on the “cartels and monopolies†of major oligarchic family firms that have long had a stranglehold over key segments of the national economy. The first target, a moribund and inefficient telecommunications industry, has been transformed by new competition and now serves as the model for the reform of other sectors.†-”
Paul D. Hutchcroft
PLDT, Smart is now controlled by the Indonesian oligarch Liem Sioe Liong. (Salim)The engineering is supplied by Japan NEC. So the bulk of the surplus profits is sent to HK (Greater China) and Japan. very good for the cultists of GDP growth but very bad for Philippine economic development. In this particular divsion of labor the value added that remains for the pinoy is minor.
The same for Globe owned by the Multinational Ayala and Singtel. The providers of capital equipment I do not know. Once again the LVA is minor.
Did FVR invent cellular technology? Nope. Salim was Suhartos favorite crony.
Punch in the name of James Riaddy and look at his influence with Big Mike and GMA thorugh Donald Dee and Serge Luis Ortiz and the Urban Bank.
Madonna on Mon, 25th Feb 2008 2:02 am
Whoa hvrds, idol!
The Ca t on Mon, 25th Feb 2008 2:22 am
You mean the farmers protected by the govenment are oligarchs?
You mean the Philippine garment manufacturers who can not penetrate the US markets have to comply with the US quota because the US government are protecting the oligarchs?
sheesh
hvrds on Mon, 25th Feb 2008 2:40 am
Look at the Garment Manufacturers in the Phils. None exist. They are simply contractors doing work for huge S. Korean, Taiwanese and Hongkong conglomerates. Mostly HK. (Ever hear of Esquiel, Li and Fung)Who controls them apart from Walmart, and the rest of the giant retailers.
Who are the farmers who are the major exporters in the U.S. Cargill, ADM, Continental Grains. Who controls the world’s food supply. Armour, Kraft, General Foods and the others and the other huge agricultural giants.. How much of subsidies go the family farmers in the U.S. They are a disapearing species.
Whoare the big agricultral exporters in the Philippines.
Dole, Delmonte whodo a lot of contracting to Marsman. Who sells bananas from the Philippines. Chiquita and Dole. Who is United Fruit?
Who are the largest semi -con producers in the Philippines apart from Intel, Timex and the rest. They do not want to go to China and expose their technologies since the Chinese will simply copy it.
We give them tax incentives and tax holidays not to do business here but to use our cheap resources. Hey it would be great to learn from them and do it our way. The chopsticks economies did it ages ago starting with Japan at the turn of the last century.
Yup, let us move from looking at exporting balut.
The Ca t on Mon, 25th Feb 2008 2:45 am
On the contrary, it is protecting its market and that’s where economics come in. When there is too much supply, prices will go down. business will suffer.Regardless whether the businessmen are oligarchs or not, the country
will protext its competitiveness in the global market.
The main issue raised by Karl is the separation of economics and business.
With your long post, it still points to the marriage of the two, economics and business.
Do not use too much high falluting words. They don’t mean anything to people who can not understand the technical terms. I prefer to use terminologies which could be understood by lay persons.
Hindi pa kita pinapatulan sa mga gold exchange standards mo.
hvrds on Mon, 25th Feb 2008 2:49 am
Bottom line is this- why does the U.S. government not allow market forces to bring down Citigroup, JP-Morgan Chase and the other financial houses by allowing deflationary market forces to keep destorying housing valuations to be followed by credit car defaults, car loans, and more mortgage defaults that will contue to eat away at the capital positions of these financial institutions.
Imposing market discipline could and would possibly bring the U.S. into a deep and hard landing. The big D word comes into play.
The U.S.govt. is thinking of freezing mortgage rates. Why? Bottom line is the whole economy could go into a lurch. So what? Let the capitalists suffer. Let the system create the vast army of unemployed.
cvj on Mon, 25th Feb 2008 3:06 am
To reinforce hvrds’ point above (at 2:49am), here’s what economist Ricardo Hausmann said:
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/28b464a2-cf50-11dc-854a-0000779fd2ac.html?nclick_check=1
The US is exempting itself from bitter medicine that the IMF-WB asked Jobo and Virata to administer.
UP n student on Mon, 25th Feb 2008 3:12 am
hvrds: so why is the U.S.govt. thinking of freezing mortgage rates and taking action so that the US economy does not go into a lurch?!!!
Is it some thing about elections-2008?
Is it some thing like the US electorate in particular and the US population in general truly does not care to have a “… vast army of unemployed”?
The Ca t on Mon, 25th Feb 2008 5:06 am
The names you mentioned are in banking busineses and US are doing everything to help them to avoid recession and ultimately depression.
So you still believe that business should be separated from economics?
hvrds on Mon, 25th Feb 2008 6:00 am
It is very diffcult to have discussions with people who see things on one dimension.
The dominance of financial markets create asset inflation in many asset classes and even today commodities have become an asset class. When confidence leaves asset marekts their valuations will tend to deflate and then create a spiral of deflation leading to massive failures of the banking institutions that will further contract credit to the real economy. You have 1929 all over again. The British government the land of Anglo Saxon ideology of free markets recently nationalized Northern Rock bank. The owners of the bank lost their capital and the state took over. To keep the confidence of people in paper money they saved the depositors. They should have let the bank fail and bring down the depositors with it. The depositors then would have strung up the bankers who lost their money. Off course there could have bank runs but what the heck.
It would have been a good opportunity to educate people about free markets and the importance of governance.
Do you know who are the major stockholders of the major banks in the U.S.? Do you know who are on the members of the Board of Directors of these banks?
Do you know the philosophical difference on having the gold stnadrd which is vital for free markets as a opposed to monetarism (fiat currency) which is an intergal part of statism.
The split between the Austrian brand of economic (Hayek)philosophy and Keynesian/ neo-Keynesian branch.
It is the economic system and structure that predetermines the type of business models that will survive. But that is predetermined by historical forces. (Natural and man made)It is this this will determine political and cultural realities. Where are most of the oil reserves on the world? Why are there more pinoys who are contract workersin the M.E.?
The mechanical device to pump out water from coal mines due to the fact that the English had almost cut down all their trees and had to depend on coal to warm their homes and fire their furnaces. The steam engine.
That accident of history led to the seminal change in the means of production and multiplied productivity.
Who ever said that business should be separated from economics? They are only one part of the economic agents in any society?
The issue is does Mr. Market exist or not? Can he be used to destory the oligrachs which is a misnomer for capitalists. The Philippines mostly has local landlords and merchants. The capitalists are mostly foreign. So how will you fight the capitalists when there is no Mr.Market. The world is ruled by oligopolists who pass themselves off as free marketeers and free traders.
When you get up in the morning and wipe your ass with toilet paper and use the water think hard on who supplies you. Unless you live in the barrio.
The Ca t on Mon, 25th Feb 2008 6:15 am
You’re just thinking of the US corporations involved in the mortgage “fraud”. So you’re saying that let them shut down, leaving many unemployed.
But this is larger than that. This is not about saving the US mortgage market only. These mortgages were sold to foreign banks and investments all over the world bundled as mortgage bonds with the houses as securities.
So if these foreign banks will demand for the foreclosure of the securities, will the government shut its door not to help?
So, there business and economics go together.
Am sure the government is going to help but heads will roll.
UP n student on Mon, 25th Feb 2008 6:37 am
hvrds: I have a better question, actually.
How do you make money off this?
The Ca t on Mon, 25th Feb 2008 7:35 am
YOu talk about financial system when you can’t even mention the effect of the subprime mortgage to the global financial system.
You talk in circles. You talk about gold exchange standard when it has been abandoned long time ago. Most of the countries are in managed currency system which are commodities by themselves in foreign currency markets.
The issue raised is, can you separate the businessmen from the economists? Yes or no.
The Ca t on Mon, 25th Feb 2008 7:42 am
There you are.
Now I am convinced that you really do not know what you are talking about when you said leave economics to economists. Karl took note of that.
There is no use for debate. Your rebuttal is a squid tactic.
I got no time for that. I let you talk nonsensically and allow people to admire you with long post that led to nowhere and which are not even relevant to the topic being discussed.
Kamote on Mon, 25th Feb 2008 8:07 am
Amen
Mita on Mon, 25th Feb 2008 9:12 am
Brian, why is the concept of an individual determining for himself what is right and wrong so alien to you?
It’s been a long time since I studied philosophy so whoever said it escapes me now… But I remember, individuals are capable of determining right from wrong and that ability is based on outside influences like his parents, his teachers and mentors, and society….then also internally, his experiences and blah-blah, even his own thought processing abilities but most importantly, his conscience. that’s also the reason i say guilt will not come automatically for everyone.
petty bribery, not staying in your lane when it’s specifically said, “stay in your lane,” and making illegal left turns or u-turns in Metro Manila is okay here probably, but not in other big cities of the rest of the world. magnify those petty “wrongs” but it’s still the same thing.
so, i stand by what i said, there is no specific right and wrong…it’s up to the individual to determine that for himself, even when society won’t agree with him.
about charity. charity has been getting a bad rap because of the perceived hypocrisy of the benefactors. my own thinking, yes, all that happens but who is to judge those individuals or their intentions and what for? who can really say what is in a man’s heart if we’ve never been there? the beneficiaries of charity do not have much choice nor do they probably care about discrimination because they’ve had enough of it.
think about this..if there is no one else the marginalized can turn to – where will they go? local politicians who will turn them into their goons come election time?
unrelated now but in the same vein, this is like market vendors all over the country turning to 5/6 lenders because they are there, soliciting their business. even if banks provide micro-financing, a lot of people will not avail of it because filing papers for a loan is too complicated for them. and you know how Pinoys are about papers and more papers…nothing is ever easy.
social welfare is essentially run by bureaucrats who have their own limitations. When I say bureaucrats I don’t mean it to trivialize the work they do. It’s the position they are in that creates those limitations. Even the system itself has limitations. we are not at a point where social welfare can serve all the needs of the people. That is the reality of things.
legitimize vengeance like utang na loob? i’m sorry you lost me there…i don’t think i mentioned anything about utang na loob. if you refer to it because i said i still appreciate the charity I received in my youth…that’s all I meant – appreciation with no strings attached.
Karl Garcia on Mon, 25th Feb 2008 9:36 am
Ramrod on grduate studies,ikaw pero it is just a tool , a tool for promotion or a tool for any other purpose…at at the end of the day nasa diskarte pa din yan.
It is the first Time I saw HVrds discuss with someone i multiple times.
As for cat,I may have ooposing political views ..pero mas naiintindihan ko ang mga punto nyana madali lang maintindihan at madigest, sayang naputol ang exchanges nyo ni hvrds pero buti na din bago pa may magsabi na tama na ang pataasan ng ________.pero I still read the kilometric posts of HVRDS and the rest of the posts natututo naman ako eh.
What was the concern of UPN Starting with the corect premise or position,CVj tried to answer it by separating ideas of prejudice and the like from collective guilt; sa tingin ko lahat naman me punto na gusto ipahiwatig eh.
If you start with the premise on viewing collective guilt as a result of prejudice or racism iba talaga ang resulta who sees collective guilt in another sense.
Kanya kanyang “eye of the beholder” yan kay tama ka when you said start with the correct premise,position or perspective.
Karl Garcia on Mon, 25th Feb 2008 10:57 am
Question for HVRDS,
How can a stimulus package ease the debt burden of the debt crunched citizen. The stimulus is for pumpriming thru consumption;where does paying mortgages come in?
tapos muntik pa nating gayahin.
Now going back to separating business from economics, they cannot.I agree that evnen if the concern of the businesses is the bottmline, to do that they have to be productive and an incentive to productivity is competition.
Since business now is more service sector oriented,having a better performance is a form of competition.
Now as to its application in manufacturing. Doing it the Toyota way or throu practice of kaizen or continuous improvement can not be done without competition, their pracice of getting methods that works from the ranks maybea good practice but without market intelligence by finding out how others do it can they be a success?
Their sideimpact technology was a hit because not so many people can own a volvo.
Its not just the economy,stupid as a clinton might have said once.
Now their problem is now financial,but they are still the largest economy in the world.
Japan has long been the second largest economy but how without direct competion from pirating the quality experts of the us,by controlling their currency like what China is now doing,by manipulating their trade surplusses and deficits.
In short it is a synergy of theories not just business and economic theories.
I may sound tanga or ignorante,but please do reply mr. HVRDS.
ramrod on Mon, 25th Feb 2008 11:57 am
“Who are the big agricultral exporters in the Philippines.
Dole, Delmonte whodo a lot of contracting to Marsman. Who sells bananas from the Philippines. Chiquita and Dole. Who is United Fruit?” – hrvds
Its not United Fruit but UNI FRUITIE, its one and the same with Chiquita also a big multinational player in this industry, there’s also Lapanday.
Silent Waters on Mon, 25th Feb 2008 12:04 pm
C At
Thanks for the defense. Hirap kasi kay CVJ, titira lang siya, patalikod pa. FYI, I have an MBA which means I also know my economics.
You’re the economics guro here, yet you can’t see what Scalia is trying to point out. That Family Income is NOT equal to GDP….it IS a component of GDP. In your world, GDP=Family Income. Reason being that you really have rose colored glasses with respect to the administration (and by the way, I am no fan of it, but I am FAIR about it).
magdiwang on Mon, 25th Feb 2008 12:17 pm
OT hehehe….do option trading, but its not for the faint of heart. shorting financials, homebuilders have made some people a lot of money since last year.
commodities (oil and gold), energy (solar) and agricultural(genetic corn)equities are the hottest to own in wall street right now.
emerging markets including our beloved country with good company fundamentals and earnings will come out winners when this downturn turn around.
buy yuan or euro as the US fed will continue cutting rates putting pressure on the greenback
do due dilligence but currently the price per share of blue chip stocks are low. there are a lot of opportunities out there that come only every 10 years. having said that, smart money are still shorting the market and not convinced the credit crunch has unwind. good luck
cvj on Mon, 25th Feb 2008 12:26 pm
Karl, if i may, from the link i referred to above (at 3:06 am), the stimulus package in the US comes in the form of their Central Bank (Federal Reserve) lowering interest rates. This keeps cost of lending (mortgage rates and other interest rates) low and makes it easier the consumer (and businesses) to continue borrowing or financing existing loans he/she has. It is in this sense that the citizen’s debt burden is eased.
Moreover, with lower interest rates, investors will have more motivation to invest in business ventures rather than keeping their money in the Bank. That’s how lower interest rates stimulate the economy.
cvj on Mon, 25th Feb 2008 12:53 pm
Silent Waters, if you look back to the previous discussion, i did not say that ‘GDP = Family Income’. We all understood from the beginning that there are differences in what is included in these measures.
Where Anthony and i differ is that he seem to believe that GDP is not a measure of income but rather measures the value of final goods and services. I explained to him that the value of final outputs of goods and services is expressed in terms of income so there is no distinction between ‘final output’ and ‘national income’. That’s why GDP is part of National Income Accounting.
Karl Garcia on Mon, 25th Feb 2008 1:27 pm
CVJ,
The stimulus package was for tax rebates and others with the intention of providing low income earners with money to spend. the lowering of the interest rates was the FEd’s or Berananke’s move,his predececessor Greenspan is also being blamed by certain economists. As for making it easier to borrow,it has not resulted to that, as of yet.The problem is not that easy,and for sure the next president will have a battle ahead him or her.
Mabe and maybe only, why allow people to borrow more, e di ba lubog na nga sa utang ano yan debt restructuring uutang para me pang bayad?
Fortunately with the few months i have spent with the call center that deals with credit cards,ganun na nga ang ginagawa umuutang ng low interest para mabayaran ang balance na nasa default rate na,wala ng magagawa eh.
As for the subprime resulting to selling at a loss,isa pa yan wala ng choice …yung tita ko nga hirap magbenta ng bahay nya kahit sobrang palugi na.
ramrod on Mon, 25th Feb 2008 2:59 pm
“A businessman with no economic background may in fact is applying economics without him knowing it. Studying the market will make him consider the demographic factors in targeting the market. That’s economics for you. Tell me about a business executive or a businessman who would not plan based on the information about the economic acitivites of a country.” – The Cat
I never thought I’d say this but thanks. I never saw it that way, we just do what is necessary to hit volume and profit targets – just simply find ways to sell without giving away the mill.
cvj on Mon, 25th Feb 2008 5:39 pm
Ah ok, you were referring to that stimulus package. Unfortunately, the current package excludes the most effective provisions with the most ‘bang-for-the-buck’, i.e. foodstamps and unemployment insurance as described here:
http://www.cbpp.org/1-24-08bud-stmt.htm
On your original question, i think tax rebates would have minimal, if any, impact on relieving personal debt (e.g. credit card and personal loans). It would also worsen government debt.
The economist Ricardo Hausman (who wrote the FT Column i linked to above) would agree with you. In fact that’s his main worry with the Fed’s current approach. He has expressed his concern that the Fed’s lowering of interest rates will just feed into the American consumers’ debt habit and postpone the inevitable need for adjustment.
The Ca t on Mon, 25th Feb 2008 6:00 pm
Is this addressed to me?
I think I must have missed the discussions re this topic.
ramrod on Mon, 25th Feb 2008 9:04 pm
GLORIA RESIGN!
hvrds on Mon, 25th Feb 2008 11:23 pm
Japan was the very first country that used the politically correxct term -reverse engineering to move from being an agricultural society to an industiral one. This started during the Meiji transformation period.
During the 19th century there was no such thing as protecton of international property rights. It was only after the Second World War that Japan moved to buy patents and convert them into cheaper products and they improved on them Morita is a perfect example. Think Sony.
Toyota moved from textiles and copying U.S. textile machines to cars. Their model Chevy II for the Crown. Komatsu from International Harvester. It was called reverse engineering.
While the Americans were trying to pacify the Philippines century, Japan was moving to do battle with the Russians in steel hulled ships. The armor and guns on the Japanese ships were of better quality and the tactics were learned by the Japanese from the British battle vs the French from Trafalgar.
All these improvements came from the order from the Emperor to study the West and their technology and catch up.
You do not have to reinvent the wheel. You improve on it.
First on ignorance and stupidity.
Economics is really very simple – it is the study of the resources of man and its allocation to human needs.
Why has it become so confusing? You have literacy – functional literacy and professional functional literacy. I still cannot figure how pharmacists understand doctors prescriptions?
The U.S. problem is one of loss of confidence in financial institutions. Unknow to many is the fact that Europe, Japan and China in that order are the biggest investors in U.S. financial markets including lending to the U.S. state. That is why you have all sorts of problems in Europe traceable to U.S. subprime.
The attmept at a stimulus package is simply to intill confidence to the general public that the state will be there. Soemone once wriote that the economy is like large clitoris that has to be stimulated to become engorged once again. But that will pass. What the U.S. need is time to regain confidence but the bad news keeps growing. The next ciorsis is this. How could insurance companies insure bonds vs. default when they have limited capital. In a deflationary period more bonds would go into default and thus all these policies that hedge funds and banks use would be worthless.
It is a house of cards entirely based on confidence. A giant Ponzi scheme premised on rising asset valuations.
Banks are tightening up lending standards and are drawing back on giving credit across the board. They do this by increasing rates long term.
Plus the excesses of the past -(massive liquidity) is sitll out there. You have defaltion in asset markets, but you have inflation in commodity markets because of weather and and increasing demand from emerging markets plus the period of tough oil with the threat of terrorism thrown in.
A witches brew for a perfect storm breaking out. Where and when will a spark light up this perfect fire storm? No one knows. This problem in the philippines is a good sign that the wekness of the almost totally debased state is being exposed. Every passing day more details are coming out that will tend to show that Big Mike and GMA are simply crooks and are a reflection of the miserable state of affairs in the country.
We all share the blame. How can one teach kids about ethics and morality when the perception is out there that our leaders are nothing but criminals.
We are a fortunate bunch to have been introduced to progressive theories more so than our neighbors but are unable to do anything about it.
The simple reason is because we failed to empower the vast majority. Our lines of common good stop at the boundaries of family and not community. That common sense of community is sorely lacking.
My guess is we have to come and bring or wait for the country to come to a serious crisis. The three agents in any economy are the business world, the government and the working class. That working class is the necessary buffer between the other two agents. it is normamal and natural for the business class to dominate the state since they have the means to support the state. But their price in return will always be against the common good. So how does break the cycle.
The material means will always favor big business.
There is a huge imbalance in power and it will take enlightened leadership to unite the many.
The one and only amazing thing about Obama is the symbolism that one sees in a black man surrounded by white folk who are cheering him on. Suddenly you see a group of white folk who have become color blind. Suddenly you realize that the idea of all men are created equal is true. But the problem remains on how to achieve equal opportunities for all. That means that it falls to governance supported by not a majority but a committed group of people who believe in the common good. The majority are mostly sheep anyway. Ignorance is not a bad thing. Stupidity is.
Just watch the Big Mike and GMA try to wriggle out of this mess and you see how stupid they must be for thinking that most people are dumb. They are destroying themselves because of hubris. They have become their own worst enemies. For me that proves there is a God.
@grd on Tue, 26th Feb 2008 3:17 am
Cat, not to you but to that smart guy from singapore and silent is referring to the thread below.
http://www.quezon.ph/?p=1682
Karl Garcai on Tue, 26th Feb 2008 10:01 am
Thanks for the reply, HVRDS.
Karl Garcia on Tue, 26th Feb 2008 10:03 am
Ty din CVJ,UPn,devils.To theCat, thanks for the defense.
alas ka dora on Tue, 26th Feb 2008 10:53 am
hrvds, long post, but its worth the time spent. it was a humbling experience reading through it.
please join us on friday.
The Ca t on Tue, 26th Feb 2008 3:55 pm
Now I remember, I did not join the discussion since my wireless was giving me some problem that time and I was confident that Scalia can very well handle the topic.
As usual cvj is a trying hard economics guru using lechon manok to stress his point that GDP is equal to National Income. hohoho
cvj on Tue, 26th Feb 2008 5:05 pm
Ca T, what i was trying to tell Anthony is that GDP is expressed in terms of Income. That’s why it is part of National Income Accounting. I used the simplified lechon-manok example to show the relationship between GDP and Family (aka Household) Income.
As to the specific relationship between Gross Domestic Product (GDP) and Gross National Income (GNI), you can refer to the NSCB Website:
http://www.nscb.gov.ph/secstat/d_accounts.asp
Gross National income (GNI) is computed as follows:
GDP
add (less): Net Factor Income From Abroad (NFIA)
add (less): Memo Items, i.e gain (loss) from changes in the terms of trade
So in the example for 2007 (in Constant Prices), we can compute as follows:
GDP: 1,370,018
NFIA: 138,600
Memo: -39,045
GNI: 1,469,573
You (and Anthony) can verify the above calculations for yourself.
hyacinth on Sat, 26th Jul 2008 7:52 pm
i want to know more about seewed products….
so i hope you can comment on me on what to do…