Deposing a Speaker
February 4, 2008 by mlq3
Filed under Daily Dose
Update 2:17 pm: House showdown deferred. Talk is rife, however, that it might push through anyway, but without media coverage. Rep. Matias Defensor says the ruling coalition prefers a secret caucus in committee rooms, where congressmen will indicate where they stand should there be a division of the House; and that when the winner is known, they will then return to the Session Hall to formalize their choice, without having to engage in debate.
Quite a high-wire act. Until this morning, the deposing of the Speaker had an aura of inevitability not to mention, invincibility. A delay of 24 hours can give the de Venecia camp a second wind. Conversely, it can give the Palace more time to consolidate its forces. Defensor says, though, that their objective is to settle the leadership question by tomorrow at the latest. The primary consideration (see below) might actually be: can JDV muster the eighty-odd votes required, not to save his position, but to transmit the impeachment complaint to the Senate?
Sergio Apostol says the Palace is dangling appointment as ambassador to Washington or Secretary of Foreign Affairs to de Venecia (confirming previous scuttlebutt).
Rufus Rodriguez says if Nograles has the votes, they’ll join the bandwagon.
***
Over the weekend, there was posturing a-plenty: De Venecia, Nograles camps both say they have the votes. The best the Speaker could do was along the lines of JDV says he’s receiving many offers to join opposition.
He reportedly consulted former President Estrada who summoned an opposition meeting Sunday lunchtime. But that was worth a handful of votes at best. On the other hand, the leading Palace candidate for the speakership, Rep. Nograles, didn’t bother to show up at the Lakas leaders’ Palace golf-game.
Prior to that, he’d telegraphed that the Liberal Party and a big chunk of congressional neophytes had signed on to topple de Venecia.
The President, for her part, played alternately coy and helpless: Arroyo won’t stop sons on JDV ouster.
In its Sunday editorial, The son also rises, the Inquirer said that the apparent rebelliousness of the President’s sons was all an act.
Besides what the editorial pointed out, Mon Casiple in his blog entry Between two families traces the sore spots between the Speaker and the President:
The two protagonists–President Macapagal-Arroyo and JDV–have been dueling through proxies for some months now since the president broke her promise to step down in one year’s time from July 2005. The current stage started when the ZTE scandal broke out last year, involving JDV’s own son, Joey de Venecia. In December 2006, JDV was nearly unseated when his co-savior, Fidel Ramos, insisted on the supposed agreement in July 2005. He did a judo trick, going along with the Malacañang charter change agenda. In the process, FVR got elbowed out and was humiliated at the Lakas coalition showdown. However, the president’s men did not forget JDV’s “unreliability†and ambition for the top post. Their discontent fed into KAMPI’s own simmering grievance over its being sidelined for a long, long time from the speakership post, despite it being acknowledged as the president’s own party. Over time, the presidential (and JDV’s) argument for maintaining the rainbow coalition got fewer and fewer audience among them. Things got into a head in the last 2007 elections. The JDV camp found itself fighting for survival–not for speakership–but even for membership in the House. JDV got into a real fight with Dagupan mayor Benjie Lim for the Pangasinan’s 4th congressional seat. It was bruited later that the principal backers behind Lim included the First Gentleman and KAMPI. JDV won the fight (with FVR support) and later defended his speakership by invoking the continuity of the limping coalition. However, by that time, the trust between the coalition partners had all but disappeared. Malacañang concentrated in its hand all the pork barrel (and IRA) disbursements.
Back to Casiple: he ended his piece by saying further developments would be suggested by the results of the Palace golf game yesterday morning.
But as it turned out, Arroyo snubs Lakas golf game (this morning’s Inquirer editorial objects to the choice of gold, and the choices the various groups such as the Liberals have made, to go along with the Palace-led ouster of de Venecia). However, one source, quoting a conversation with Dato Arroyo on Saturday, said of the so-called snub,
ala raw golf chuchu much les wid tabalko talaga sa sked ng nanay nya. Napapirma raw nya rachel arenas ysday. 140 na but targeting 20 to 40 more.
And so, instead of a Sunday meeting, the Speaker was told he should go to the Palace on Monday, either at 10 or 11 am. That gave the Palace time to round up the “20 or 40 more,” which refers to pledges to vote against the Speaker (see Pals, foes switch to battle mode as JDV fate hangs). The Monday meeting, held at the Palace Park, was expected to take all morning.
Casiple also said that the escalating fight between de Venecia and Arroyo carries with it the risk of tearing apart the ruling coalition. This is something I tackle in my column, Aliens versus Predators.
News like this -Eastern Samar Gov. Evardone quits Lakas party- is a sign of things to come:
“I can better serve my constituents if I join other political parties … I want to join a political party that I think is close to President Arroyo’s heart,†explained Evardone, who is spokesperson for the Union of Local Authorities of the Philippines, a group of local government executives. “Where the President is, I will be there,†he said.
Lakas has to consider if it will keep an increasingly decorative speakership.
As for de Venecia himself, Conrado de Quiros zeroes in on the problem: those still loyal to the President view him as disloyal and dangerous; those opposed to the administration can’t forgive him for killing two impeachments and giving the President a new lease on political life in 2005. An interesting tactical point comes from Joel Rocamora, as quoted in UNTV: impeachment might suddenly get a new lease on life.
The Speaker made a choice in July 2005, gambling on achieving parliamentary government by giving the President a chance to survive. FVR gambled on the same thing. The President eliminated FVR as a power in Lakas and then proceeded to cultivate the Speaker to kill impeachment efforts. The President rewarded them by using the resources of her office to try to kill Lakas. When the Speaker’s son decided to spill the beans later rather than sooner, the Speaker agonized over it and tried to save himself even if it meant he had to distance himself from the son who was trying to do the right thing, for whatever reason.
Leadership requires numbers but it also requires showing true grit; this is how politicians become statesmen. The Speaker has had repeated opportunities to finally choose the path of statesmanship but chose the low road each and every time. The simple lesson here is that if anyone is going to be held accountable for anything, it’s not the President or her family; it will be allies who, once they show some independence of mind, will be crushed.
In the blogosphere, The Lonely Vampire Chronicles compiles relevant headlines; smoke has a bone to pick with the opposition concerning the speakership fight; and Uniffors advises congressmen to take the money -and squeal. The Equalizer points to Rep. Mikey Arroyo saying it’s all about ZTE. Brain Cell Exercises puts it well:
This recent skirmish in the House of Representatives only goes to show several things: first, that when blood relatives squeal on Malacañang, one should be ready for the death of his/her political dynasty. Second, that there are no permanent allies in politics — only permanent interests. I believe that Nograles and his allies do have the numbers to finally topple JDV. But considering this man’s trapo nature, it’s just going to be another case of one set of rascals being replaced by another set of rascals. Let’s just see how much of a Malacañang lapdog he’s going to be. If the issue on charter change gets revived for the nth time in the House of Representatives under Nograles’ term as Speaker, then my theory is proven: that Nograles has been bestowed with the all-mighty Malacañang shield of power.
Pinoy x-sa KSA points out,
If you are a father, you know very well that you cannot control your sons and daughters. If you are a son or daughter, you know you cannot be controlled, 100%, at all, by your parents. For me, it was important that JDV III exposed the NBN deal.
Agree!
And Ricelander’s Blog reflects on unbridgeable opinions.
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inodoro ni emilie on Mon, 4th Feb 2008 12:16 pm
exciting where this push comes to shove will lead. [are we there yet? are we there yet?]
inodoro ni emilie on Mon, 4th Feb 2008 12:20 pm
mb, hahaha.
balatucan on Mon, 4th Feb 2008 12:57 pm
The opposition should wait on the sidelines and wait as the drama unfolds. “Keep on fighting fellas!”
war on Mon, 4th Feb 2008 1:13 pm
He is a big boy. Let us see what happens.
DevilsAdvc8 on Mon, 4th Feb 2008 3:18 pm
JDV is already dead. he just doesn’t know it yet.
even if he turns tattle-tale, the public will not give him a moment of its time. the public is too fatigued for another stab at unseating arroyo. everyone is waiting for 2010. and besides, public opinion is high that JDV is just getting what he deserves. everyone’s relishing this moment of revenge. as if the public had anything to do with this at all. but the public will still relish JDV’s defeat, no matter what. for his part in killing all impeachment attempts agst GMA, everyone is just telling him: buti nga sayo!
but the public is making the same mistake JDV did when he opted to wait and see instead of initiating the 1st strike during that ZTE-NBN controversy. JDV had that chance to strike 1st and strike hard, but chose to play possum.
by waiting for 2010, the public is waiting for the war to be brought to them, which almost always assures a loss. initiative is everything in war.
be a fiddler or be a mouse?
Jon Mariano on Mon, 4th Feb 2008 3:33 pm
When JDV is gone, Gloria becomes more powerful. Who else can give her a good fight?
What’s really troubling (at least to me) though is the dearth of new leaders who inspire our imagination.
vic on Mon, 4th Feb 2008 4:05 pm
The difference between GMA and all others before her is she knows when to swing and when not to swing and so far she can’t just miss…or the referee just playing blind?
Jon Mariano on Mon, 4th Feb 2008 4:44 pm
Don’t look now, speakership was declared vacant! Is it going to hold, meaning that JDV as speaker is gone? Very interesting development!
anthony scalia on Mon, 4th Feb 2008 4:59 pm
Napapanahon!
Imagine its 1986 today instead of 2008. Same time of the year – February.
Will the 2008 JDV be the equivalent of the 1986 JPE? Will JDV say something along the lines of “Madame President your time is up”?
JDV may be known to be fiercely loyal, but he is still the quintessential trapo. it won’t be surprising if he crossed over.
Now it gets interesting – would the opposition get more credibility with JDV around? He has the keys to the ‘chamber of secrets’!
nash on Mon, 4th Feb 2008 5:17 pm
I agree with de Quiros,
I hope both sides duke it out and that none will remain standing and we’d all be better off.
Jon Mariano on Mon, 4th Feb 2008 5:18 pm
Opposition + JDV = Credibility? How illogical can one get? I think it’s JDV whose time is up. Gloria’s end will come in time.
Mike on Mon, 4th Feb 2008 5:57 pm
Tumpak, Devils. Serves Joe right. He could have been a hero. Now he’s f**ked like the rest of us.
Mike on Mon, 4th Feb 2008 6:21 pm
My forecast: JdV goes down, Lakas is abolished/fully swallowed up/marginalized by Kampi. Now in total control of House, Kampi revives Chacha middle of 2008.
nash on Mon, 4th Feb 2008 6:42 pm
we love maid miriam for adding to the theatre:
““This is poetic justice. The law of karma is operating here. The lords of karma have seen to it that Filipino politicians take to heart the Golden Rule, ‘Do unto others as you have others do unto you,’†Miriam Santiago said.
Santiago noted that De Venecia washed his hands off his son’s testimony before the Senate. So the President, she said, could not be faulted for also saying she couldn’t control her sons’ oust-De Venecia moves.
The senator suggested that the President appoint De Venecia ambassador to Iran, Iraq, or Indonesia — all Muslim countries — as he was an advocate of the inter-faith dialogue approach to solving the conflicts in the world.”
The Equalizer on Mon, 4th Feb 2008 9:56 pm
Former Speaker Joe De Venecia’s Sad Poem:
“There Was Nobody Left…”
When they came for the communists and the so-called leftists, I turned away
When they came for the human rights activists and the radicals and the street protesters, I turned away
When they came for the political opposition in 2004, and the critical civic society groups, and the utopians, and the independent thinkers, I turned away
And when they came for me, I turned around and around, and there was nobody left…
grd on Mon, 4th Feb 2008 10:06 pm
so jdv cannot blame gloria for his ouster. well, let the infighting continue. matira matibay ika nga. better if they all go down. nobody will shed a tear.
vic on Mon, 4th Feb 2008 10:33 pm
better if they all go down. nobody will shed a tear.
Not even some Crocodile Tears? Lot of bodies there grd. Crocodiles need to shed those tears in the process of digesting…
hvrds on Mon, 4th Feb 2008 10:50 pm
No autocrat allows anyone to have a sword hanging over her head. JDV had what he thought was as an amulet to challenge the wicked queen but he should have known better than to believe that she was going to allow him to share in the plunder of the treasury. It was only a matter of time.
Now everyone will know that corruption will be more centralized with the Big Mike and GMA clan fully in control of the treasury.
Erap has already been bought off with part of his wealth protected from garnishment by the state.
We should not forget the role of the technocrats under Marcos who aided and abetted his rule and plunder; Sicat, Ongpin, Virata, Laya and others.
Today we have a new set in Neri and co.
The bulk of the population today were not around during the 70’s and 80’s. This is is really not new. The legislature, executive and a large part of the police/military are now almost entirely indentured to the first family and probably except for a few members of the judiciary so is most of the judicial system.
This time it is the lure of immediate wealth that is being used to undermine true and effective governance.
UP n student on Mon, 4th Feb 2008 11:27 pm
It sounds so full of cynicism, but it seems that is why people want to get elected to Congress… to be within reach of …is the lure of immediate wealth that is being used to undermine true and effective governance
But it still takes a modicum of wealth before one gets elected, so in some twisted
way wanting to get into Congress is motivational for GNP-growth. 
:
nash on Mon, 4th Feb 2008 11:32 pm
Trapo talaga itong is Shrek-ears JDV. Now he’s gone to the opposition.
Parang si Tita Miriam Santiago, when FPJ dumped her VP ambitions, she moved to GMA.
Er, is it too early to ask for a snap election? Manuel Pangilinan perhaps?
nash on Mon, 4th Feb 2008 11:45 pm
House Speaker Nograles, hurray.
“Aside from being the Billboard King, he was called by a Davao broadcaster the “Burlesque King” for an alleged extra-marital affair. Nograles retaliated by filing a libel case in 2001 that sent Bombo broadcaster Alexander “Lex” Adonis to jail. According to court records, Adonis identified Nograles as the man seen running naked in a Manila hotel after the husband of his alleged paramour caught them in a hotel room.”
BrianB on Mon, 4th Feb 2008 11:48 pm
I feel very enthusiastic about going over to JDV’s side and giving him my “moral” support.
rollchan on Tue, 5th Feb 2008 12:08 am
wala na, sipa na si JDV. Hehe.
Geo on Tue, 5th Feb 2008 12:27 am
Are the neophytes an especially strong/large group this time around? Does anybody know the typical number of brand new congressmen/women? Was this Congress an especially “new” one…with an inordinate amount of first-timers???
UP n student on Tue, 5th Feb 2008 12:32 am
If… and it still is an IF… if JDV goes, who’s in line for speakership?
The Equalizer on Tue, 5th Feb 2008 12:39 am
PINOY OPPOSITION AS CRAZY AS THE ADMINISTRATION
The Opposition is a crazy bunch! No different from the Administration of Gloria Arroyo.
Firstly ,they will support the ouster of Speaker Joe De Venecia
Secondly,after his ouster from the speakership ,they will welcome him in the opposition!
No wonder,this country is in a mess.All the politicians are HYPOCRITES of the highest order!
Geo on Tue, 5th Feb 2008 12:46 am
Equalizer finally getting closer to reality…..
How’s that coffee smelling?
mlq3 on Tue, 5th Feb 2008 1:16 am
84 neophtyes in the 14th congress:
http://newsinfo.inquirer.net/breakingnews/nation/view_article.php?article_id=77317
that’s about a third of the house.
mlq3 on Tue, 5th Feb 2008 1:18 am
equalizer, you’re not asking the right question. which part of the opposition? the minority is composed of different groups. and in what capacity, since jdv hasn’t said he’s resigning from lakas.
supremo on Tue, 5th Feb 2008 1:41 am
JDV is out! Hurray!
Bert on Tue, 5th Feb 2008 1:42 am
“I hope both sides duke it out and that none will remain standing and we’d all be better off.-nash
how’s that, nash? i wonder what it would be like for Pinas w/zero politician.
cvj on Tue, 5th Feb 2008 1:47 am
Mar Roxas has some explaining to do.
Bencard on Tue, 5th Feb 2008 1:48 am
the overwhelming majority of the men and women of congress (far more than the required 121) has voted to oust jdv. this proves beyond doubt that the support he enjoyed in the chamber has been tenuous at best, propped up by the majority’s loyalty to the president. even with the entire left-wing group and fanatic anti-arroyo forces siding with him, all jdv could muster was less than 40 votes for the status quo.
his rehash of the charges against the administration, without substantiation, apparently fell on deaf ears, largely unconvinced by its sheer hypocrisy and lack of sincerity. as one legislator puts it, it tells more about the character of the man than that of the person he is accusing.
if he hasn’t realized it earlier, jdv3 must now be convinced of the havoc he has caused his father by thinking that he could go around accusing people of wrongdoing on the basis of his words alone. as a good father, jdv could have demanded from his son to put up or shut up. failing in that, and without interfering in his son’s “independent” decision, jdv could have denounced the charges to the whole world for what they really were – unfounded assertions that could not be proven. he chose to uphold his son – right or wrong – invoking the truism “blood is thicker than water” and face the consequences.
those consequences are now unfolding.
now he is moving towards the point of no return and burning the bridges behind him. now he has to cast lot with the opposition members who, themselves, have some ax to grind against him and not sure whether he would be a boon or a liability to their cause.
cvj on Tue, 5th Feb 2008 1:53 am
Thanks Bencard, we can always count on you to give the Family’s perspective.
Bert on Tue, 5th Feb 2008 2:16 am
like heaven? or, hell? or in-between, perhaps?
nash on Tue, 5th Feb 2008 3:29 am
@bert
“how’s that, nash? i wonder what it would be like for Pinas w/zero politician.”
exactamento. we need zero politicians and more statesmen. (another weshpol thenking)
however, new house speaker prospero looks just as dodgy.
nash on Tue, 5th Feb 2008 3:32 am
@cvj
“Mar Roxas has some explaining to do.”
TRUE. We really want to know what on earth did he see in make-up encrusted Korina Sanchez? Eww. Imagine her as first lady. (shivers!)
nash on Tue, 5th Feb 2008 3:38 am
“I accept this position with all humility. I asked myself what I’m doing here and I tell myself it’s God’s will. It’s probably destiny,†Nograles said.
OMG! Another one with a messianic complex. Total nutter.
I often ask myself, why is it that GMA, Cory Aquino, and Erap can all ‘talk’ to God.
inodoro ni emilie on Tue, 5th Feb 2008 5:08 am
democrazy in action: away pamilya. [are WE in yet? are WE in yet?]
Chona on Tue, 5th Feb 2008 5:22 am
@Nash,
Here are the top 3 reasons why politicians say they talk to God:
(1) the politicians, sick in the brain, mistake the hum of the fluorescent light ballasts to be the words of God;
(2) the politicians, cunning as the devil — give voters what the voters want, leaders who have a special direct-line to Upstairs;
(3) the politicians just tweaking their thumbs at the electorate, saying another lie and daring the electorate to catch them if they can
hawaiianguy on Tue, 5th Feb 2008 5:36 am
Wawang daga, naisahan ng kapwa daga!
metrocom ini on Tue, 5th Feb 2008 6:08 am
wow, this bencard beats nograles as gma’s lapdog! aw, aw, aw. what an asswipe!
nash on Tue, 5th Feb 2008 6:36 am
@metrocom
there is a tear in the time-space continuum which allows some from alternate universes to cross over.
Kabayan on Tue, 5th Feb 2008 8:01 am
Couldn’t help but be intrigued by this blogsite. An incisive analysis from all.
metrocom on Tue, 5th Feb 2008 8:46 am
metrocom, assholes like you don’t deserve this “asswipe”. go and find yourself a bamboo to scrape your crap!
benc on Tue, 5th Feb 2008 8:48 am
Manolo, the situation is confusticating. I’ve personally disliked JDV ever since he landed in Congress, so we are really scraping the bottom of the porcine barrel if JDV becomes a symbol of administrative oppression. Where else but in our country can we descend further into the pits?
Bencard on Tue, 5th Feb 2008 8:49 am
metrocom, assholes like you don’t deserve this “asswipe”. go and find yourself a bamboo to scrape off your crap!
TonGuE-tWisTeD on Tue, 5th Feb 2008 8:56 am
Wow, I actually saw my congressman in that session. And he waited all of seven hours to say his “Yes!”
Why don’t we have suicide bombers when we need them?
metrocom ini on Tue, 5th Feb 2008 9:09 am
Bencard, you finally admit you are an asswipe. Good!
Kabayan on Tue, 5th Feb 2008 9:18 am
A vacuum now exists in the Lower House, a vacuum of balance not only in Congress but in our nation as well. The check and balance against the Executive Branch is now almost totally gone and Congress is now filled with “yes men†by the administration. By now we know who the future godlings of Congress will be and it ain’t Nograles, as we can now safely say of this administration, “Blood is thicker than waterâ€.
In any case, the fall of De Venecia was predicted and would have be easily seen in the past if one would look at it in a wider point of view. The removal of De Venecia is a necessity brought upon by bigger nefarious design. If we look at the motives of this administration, it did not really change its objective which is – Gaining Total Power. As such the timetable is actually right on track delayed only by the opposition and civil society. So how did their objective go so far? In order to gain dictatorship whether by an individual or a clique this is what I have predicted nearly a year ago, this had been my predicted scenario:
1. Joe de Venecia would have to go since he is a rival for a Prime Minister position
2. Charter Change must still push through so that term limits would be removed for the future Congressmen (or the future Parliament for that matter) and the position of Prime Minister must have unlimited term.
3. The position of Prime Minister should be a post that would be chosen by a small group (i.e. Parliament) so that only a few need to be convinced and as a consequence would have lesser bribes to dispose to get favors.
4. The COMELEC must be controlled and manipulated.
5. Maintain a Praetorian guard among generals in the PNP and Armed Forces
6. Maintain the “Destabilizer†and “Communist†bogey so as to justify crackdowns of legitimate protest including opinions published by legitimate media.
7. Emasculate the media so that those currently in power can be corrupt and abuse power without chastisement.
8. If unable to push through the above agendas effectively, they will fabricate a reason or a scenario to declare Martial Rule, or at least put in the mechanisms for a de facto Martial Law.
This will be done at all costs. Everyone will be expendable EVEN the very lapdog Congress itself. Little does the existing Lower House know that they are soon in danger of losing their power even if they continue being the lapdog that most of them are. Impossible? That is also what they said when I indicated that JDV would eventually be kicked out.
Observe the events of the coming months and years and observe this emerging pattern. Only a vigorous push of different sectors of society against this evil agenda will throw a monkey wrench in their plans. Don’t forget Ramos in this equation as well.
(On another note, the new Inquirer blog design seems to be filtering individuals who oppose the administration or perhaps it is just glitch ridden or maybe I am just being paranoid. Hope I am wrong. The timing of the glitches in the Inquirer blogsite uncannily coincided with a major strategic power move of the administration, i.e. removing JDV. Hope it does not happen here in this site as well.)
Jon Mariano on Tue, 5th Feb 2008 9:34 am
It’s not surprising nobody shed a tear for JDV (except his family perhaps). I’m wondering if he still can resurrect himself or he’ll be like FVR, all spent forces.
benc on Tue, 5th Feb 2008 9:37 am
Pahabol conspiracy theory 1 (pero plausible). JDV wanted a shift to Parliamentary, where he could probably become prime minister (dream on!). In return, JDV will deliver an obedient Congres to GMA. Since GMA did not successfully push the Parliamentary shift, JDV got antsy.
cvj on Tue, 5th Feb 2008 9:48 am
Kabayan (at 9:18am), i agree with your points. Unfortunately, the hoped for “vigorous push of different sectors of society against this evil agenda” is just not there because of the let’s move on and let’s wait for 2010 mindsets.
qwert on Tue, 5th Feb 2008 10:07 am
“Unfortunately, the hoped for “vigorous push of different sectors of society against this evil agenda†is just not there because of the let’s move on and let’s wait for 2010 mindsets.” – cvj
… and GMA knew about this, this is a calculated move coming from a shrewd politician. The 2010 presidentiables will become shooed politicians, they don’t know up to now the name of the game.
Kabayan on Tue, 5th Feb 2008 10:10 am
cvj (at 9:48am), true, the “let’s move on and let’s wait for 2010″ mindset is getting prevalent and is actually something which the power hungry in this administration wants.
The opposition, civil society and even the free press cannot allow themselves such complacency. They should more than ever pound even harder against the “coming of the night.” A major strategic objective (i.e. deposing JDV) is reached and a lot of the other objectives I mentioned are either partially or even fully fulfilled. For those who experienced the Marcosian Martial Law, they know only too well the consequences of this will be.
Watch out for years 2009 to 2010. But then again when many people get wise, they may jump the timetable to 2008 since someone just “spilled the beans” so to speak.
Mike on Tue, 5th Feb 2008 10:38 am
And then:
http://newsinfo.inquirer.net/inquirerheadlines/nation/view/20080205-116822/Gonzalez-He-has-burned-his-bridges-with-the-President
I knew it all along!! Bencard=Raul Gonzalez!!
Mike on Tue, 5th Feb 2008 10:42 am
Kabayan, I salute you. Your analysis is the most succinct and persuasive statement of our current situation that I have yet come across. I have no doubt your assertions will be borne out by future events–to our detriment and dismay, unless people act decisively now.
Liam Tinio on Tue, 5th Feb 2008 10:49 am
this only goes to show that GMA was inaccurate when she confessed to the world media that she is a “Good Economist, Very Bad Politician” http://www.newsflash.org/2004/02/hl/hl106723.htm
from what i see, this move, if it were her design, is a mark of being a student of realpolitik, qualifying her to be one of the shrewdest politician this country ever had.
if, as Kabayan says, these actions lead to the ‘replacement’ of democracy in this country, so be it. we have been experimenting with our kind of democracy for more than 20 years and most of you would agree that it is not as ‘romantic’ as we wished it could be.
who knows, she might be able to pull of a kind of autocracy similar to singapore’s
Kabayan on Tue, 5th Feb 2008 10:58 am
Mike, I am glad that you and other bloggers on this site appreciate the analysis of the scenario I had just described. I forgot to add number 9…
9. Make inroads and as far as possible to try to control or at least heavily influence the Judicial Branch of government.
… Once the three branches of government is controlled, power is complete and a de facto Martial Law can easily be established. Whether this has already been done in part, I leave bloggers to decide.
DevilsAdvc8 on Tue, 5th Feb 2008 11:06 am
napaka obvious at napaka halata na, pero ba’t di makita nang mga tanga?
ngingisi-ngisi ngayon si Nograles, di ba nya alam, ngayon pa lang, bilang na rin ang buhay nya?
sabi ni mlq3, GMA respects no bounds, and will cross all limits. pero may mas glaring na ugali si GMA. paulit-ulit, walang pakli, perfect to the dot, you can always expect her to do this: bite the hand that fed (or protected her).
de Quiros’ portrayal of GMA as the proverbial scorpion who rode on a tortoise’s back is very apt.
said the scorpion: but it is just in my nature to sting…
let us look at the list of tortoises:
Cory, FVR, the LEFT (who colluded w/her in EDSA II), and now of course, JDV.
once Nograles fulfills his role, which is to push through Charter Change, you can expect the scorpion to “sting” again. and once congress transforms into a parliament and elects GMA as PM, expect parliament to be dissolved.
i think only the praetorian guards will be left to enjoy the fruits of their labor.
once again, making all those wishing to leave the philippines right in their decision. leave now before its too late. but dnt head for the US. that country is headed in a worser direction. head elsewhere. but leave now and never look back.
UP n student on Tue, 5th Feb 2008 11:07 am
mike and kabayan: are you doing a call for EDSA marches? I believe there is a jailed Senator who will be interested in the details, but you may need to remind yourself that passive aggression does not work. You really should avoid being clearly misunderstood or you will be alone together.
DevilsAdvc8 on Tue, 5th Feb 2008 11:10 am
before July ends, Charter Change will push through
DevilsAdvc8 on Tue, 5th Feb 2008 11:11 am
we have 2 more years before my predicted revolution
Liam Tinio on Tue, 5th Feb 2008 11:28 am
“sabi ni mlq3, GMA respects no bounds, and will cross all limits. pero may mas glaring na ugali si GMA. paulit-ulit, walang pakli, perfect to the dot, you can always expect her to do this: bite the hand that fed (or protected her).”
well, GMA’s ambition is more admirable than the kind of loyalty you prefer. when GMA’s loyalty to JDV goes in the way of your goals for the country, that loyalty will have to go. so i think its better to answer that in MLQ’s words as well.
“my loyalty to my friends end where my loyalty to the country begins”
GMA is truly determined to achieve her vision for the country, and she will do whatever means necessary to realize that goal, and that is admirable. realpolitik at its finest.
inodoro ni emilie on Tue, 5th Feb 2008 11:38 am
see how the edsa2-made cookie crumbles. then only a few saw how the cookie monster baked it and is now eating it, too.
Kabayan on Tue, 5th Feb 2008 11:43 am
UP n student,
The real question is …
Where are you now in your current organization, how well informed are you, your classmates, your members, your neighbors of the fact?
What are you doing now? How do you intend to let others know of the insidious evil creeping in our society?
Just like in a story, a frog that is being boiled in small increments of increases in temperature never really realizes that he is already boiled until it’s too late. It simply slips into unconsciousness until dead and thoroughly boiled. Existing Philippine society seems to be that frog.
I roughly assume that you are a UP student,… the real question here is … What would YOU do?
Don’t worry UP n student. I’ll never be alone.
———–
DevilsAdvc8,
Leaving the Philippines to some greener pasture are for those have the capability, finances, contacts, skill and luck to leave. For the vast majority … well…
———–
For those who wish to have a good grasp of what is really happening right now … study the Marcos regime before and after declaration of Martial Law.
Study what happened to the political opponents of Marcos, the media, the rich people who were not his lapdogs, his loss of grip of power as it slips to his relatives and generals, and of course subtle foreign intervention.
History has a tendency to repeat itself, unless fully understood and countermeasures be taken.
Kabayan on Tue, 5th Feb 2008 11:48 am
Liam Tinio,
You said “GMA is truly determined to achieve her vision for the country, and she will do whatever means necessary to realize that goal, and that is admirable. realpolitik at its finest.”
That is exactly what the dictator Ferdinand Marcos thought of, and for himself. So did Idi Amin. Gloria is simply showing her true color.
inodoro ni emilie on Tue, 5th Feb 2008 11:49 am
devils, shouldn’t it be: stay and drive those evil away?
UP n student on Tue, 5th Feb 2008 11:54 am
So what will Honasan do? And what will Ping Lacson do?
DevilsAdvc8 makes a suggestion for the hireables that they who can to join Jon Mariano, cvj, benign0 and trueNorth vic and and leave for overseas.
Is he also asking those with assets to leave?
————
But I see things differently from DevilsAdvc8. We partially agree on migration. Like DevilsAdvc8, I say that if going to Australia or Singapore makes sense for a person, more power. Everyone has a responsibility to paddle his own canoe. But do it more because of a desire to do better and less from fear and a desire to leave a sinking ship.
As for 2010, my perception is that 2010 becomes a demonstration of a maturing electorate. A peaceful change of administration in 2010 will be very positive for the Philippines, and better follows.
DIFFERENT FOLKS, DIFFERENT STROKES. And beware the opportunists. So what will Honasan do?
cvj on Tue, 5th Feb 2008 12:00 pm
Kabayan, yeah the boiling frog analogy fits our situation. We have an inactive and/or co-opted Civil Society that allows the elite politicians, businessmen and their military thugs subvert our Institutions while seeking comfort in an electoral calendar that will most likely be subverted at some point. With the ‘decent folks’ in the middle class out of the way, and given our highly unequal Society, our future will be more like present-day Pakistan or Kenya.
Balimbing on Tue, 5th Feb 2008 12:02 pm
DJB, just in case you glance by this way: check out kabayan’s comments on what gloria is up to. You fit nicely on item 7.
cvj on Tue, 5th Feb 2008 12:05 pm
It’s the difference between World War I-style trench warfare versus World War II-style blitzkreig. You’re making 2010 to be some sort of Maginot Line while the other side is already positioned to attack from the rear (as they always do).
Liam Tinio on Tue, 5th Feb 2008 12:15 pm
@Kabayan
“That is exactly what the dictator Ferdinand Marcos thought of, and for himself. So did Idi Amin.”
so did Lee Kwan Yew and the Chinese in the contemporary period
UP n student on Tue, 5th Feb 2008 12:15 pm
cvj and DevilsAdvc8:
Also to remember:
One, revolutions, CHANGES and chaos are supposed to provide immense opportunities to the survivor. There is the classic market saying — “buy” when there is blood in the streets.
Two: Statistically, the odds of dying during an administration-change is low. This suggests that many among the nimble-on-their-feet will not only survive, they should thrive after.
Wasn’t this one of the lessons in the Elder-Gokongwei address?
—–
Maginot Line is so French it is already a dead-premise even before it is put to practice. And again, cvj, different folks, different strokes is just reminder of differences in opinions.
And if it is another World War II, not to worry. The Americans will come to the rescue.
Kabayan on Tue, 5th Feb 2008 12:19 pm
cvj, you are correct, they would not wait till 2010. As it seems that their actions (which speak of their strategy and motives) are now currently exposed, they would likely do their best to hasten their timetable, unless of course the decent citizenry successfully foils their strategy. Opportunists, fence-sitters, and last-minute vultures should also be observed and rooted out when the time comes.
grd on Tue, 5th Feb 2008 12:20 pm
don’t forget cvj.
mlq3 on Tue, 5th Feb 2008 12:23 pm
benc, i don’t think it’s confusing at all. what goes around comes around. not just revolutions, but administrations, devour their own children. jdv gambled on gma. she gambled on disposing with him. his gamble failed, her gamble paid off. the house, in voting to get rid of jdv, got the satisfaction of toppling its own leader and further weakening the speakership, because now it has three speakers: dato and mikey arroyo, and prospero nograles. but the congressmen are happy and the president can do victory laps.
Kabayan on Tue, 5th Feb 2008 12:28 pm
Liam Tinio,
Lee Kwan Yew surrendered his power; Marcos and Idi Amin did not. Gloria is not the type who would surrender her power either, she would actually lie and overturn her earlier decision just to extend her power. Remember how she announced it in public that she would not run for presidency again? Later she overturned her own decision, ran for reelection, then came Garci scandal and a host of cover-ups then the rest is history. It is highly unlikely for her to loosen her grasp for power. Power can be highly addictive and those addicted to power would desire absolute power.
Observe the trend in the years that recently passed if her administration moves toward the 9 strategic items I mentioned above, and decide for yourself where this would likely lead to.
UP n student on Tue, 5th Feb 2008 12:29 pm
Kabayan: What is an appropriate penalty for the crime of being a fence-sitter?
nha on Tue, 5th Feb 2008 12:29 pm
isang malaking karma sa kanilang mag-ama,,kung hindi sila gumawa ng kalokohan e di wala sanang karma..karma lang un
Liam Tinio on Tue, 5th Feb 2008 12:31 pm
@UPnStudent
i agree
surprisingly, we are currently displaying a maturing electorate with more and more politicians giving emphasis on taking the endorsements of political parties, although it isnt as perfect as in other leading democracies like in germany, france and in europe.
the re-emergence of old political parties like NP and LP and putting much importance on voting as a block party on certain issues. this is definitely unlike the Ramos and Estrada times where politics tend to gravitate in a large extent on individuals and personalities.
now, we see functioning political parties on the national scene, though not based on ideologies but interests. though local politics is pretty much the same, its still a start and is arguably a positive evolution from personality based politics of the 90s.
UP n student on Tue, 5th Feb 2008 12:32 pm
Kabayan : Is fence-sitting penalty to be a ten-peso fine, ten push-ups or pull out the nails from all ten fingers? Some people may not want to fence-sit once they get to know you better.
Kabayan on Tue, 5th Feb 2008 12:55 pm
UP n student,
In the first place the definition of fence-sitters may be problematic. To put limits to this, in my opinion, the penalty for fence-sitters [which if I may be allowed to loosely call them as corrupt "balimbings" holding key public office positions who arbitrarily shift support to a winning political force in order to uphold their selfish interest] must be disqualification from serving in public office, whether it be an appointed or elected position; not to mention will automatically be part of the normal fine-tooth comb policy of credible investigation of ill-gotten wealth (which also incur a separate penalty.)
Kabayan on Tue, 5th Feb 2008 12:59 pm
Discussions regarding a “maturing electorate” and “reemergence of old political parties” is moot if a dictatorship or authoritarian rule is installed.
Mike on Tue, 5th Feb 2008 1:02 pm
That “vision” is what I am worried about. I fear it is one riddled with Congressmen-for-hire, more Garcis, more Diosdado Macapagal Avenues, and more ZTEs. But then you don’t have a problem with that, do you? (“replacement of democracy…so be it”)
The problem is that you cannot choose what kind of dictator you get, once you’ve installed him/her. Ika nga, no return, no exchange (at least, without great effort). But I think I understand your attitude: as long as the government doesn’t interfere with business, democracy be damned, eh? But if you equate this adminstration with that of Lee Kwan Yew or the Chinese Communist Party, I think you are making a large qualitative mistake.
Liam Tinio on Tue, 5th Feb 2008 1:06 pm
@Kabayan
Lee Kwan Yew did surrender his power to a groomed subordinate, but he did so only when he has done his job.
Gloria Arroyo is yet to prove anything and do what she wants; to make this country a first world country.
If you would look closely, Marcos sought perpetuity in power but his thrust to elevate the Philippines is largely based on social programs like feeding and health care in reaction to growing communism and the previous Macapagal Presidency and building audacious infrastructure, a program of government that cannot possibly move the economy forward.
While GMA on the other hand has continuously sought to perpetuate her power, in order to put in place the necessary macro economic fundamentals towards economic growth. and we have seen her worth: the economy is up, inflation is tamed, stock markets are high and we enjoy relative prominence world wide.
we have a populist president on one hand and we have an economist on the other. so why assign the same traits and attributes?
as i see, president would do everything she can for the Republic. i think, she can withstand the thought of not being a populist but she cant withstand the idea of being a bad economist. which is as a whole definitely better for the country.
Kabayan on Tue, 5th Feb 2008 1:10 pm
Liam Tinio,
No person aiming for dictatorship, destroys democratic institutions and has a history of cover-ups can ever be called “better for the country”
DevilsAdvc8 on Tue, 5th Feb 2008 1:15 pm
Liam Tinio, i wait while you choke on your words.
jude on Tue, 5th Feb 2008 1:23 pm
While I am very sure that Prospero Nograles, De Venecia’s successor as speaker, will be even more unscrupulous and corrupt than De Venecia himself, De Venecia has no one to blame but himself. He allowed the Arroyo’s to plunder and run havoc, steadfastly defending them when it was convenient for him to do so.
Of course, De Venecia didn’t do these things without extracting his pound of flesh. He may have allowed the Arroyo kin to have a say on the pork barrel, but De Venecia kept a good chunk of it for himself and for his minions.
It was a big farce, laughable if it weren’t so creepy, to hear both De Venecia and the Arroyo camp mouthing slogans like “moral revolution†or “a change for reformâ€. Neither morality nor reform have any relevance here, except to disguise raw arrogance and greed.
De Venecia overstepped his boundaries when he allowed his son to sour-grape publicly over the ZTE contract. Apparently, it wasn’t only Abalos who wanted a golden handshake upon his retirement. JDV had his own aspirations as well. He had once tried, but failed, to secure a windfall through the rail project with the Chinese. Perhaps JDV’s hubris led him to believe that the GMA Administration would give him, through his son, the ZTE project as a gilded bone for his canine servility. But it wasn’t meant to be. Maybe JDV had outlived his usefulness. And there were others, like Big Mike, Sleazy Ricky and Meek Ben who had more access to the source of power. And so, like a tragic figure, JDV was thrown to the wolves. Sadly, for him, his blind ambition, his deceitfulness, his greed and, finally, his conceit, all led to his downfall.
While JDV may threaten to become an opposition figure or a fiscalizer, he doesn’t have the credibility, the moral fiber nor the strength of character to lead a crusade. He will be a lonely, forgotten, perhaps even disdained figure. JDV is about compromise, reciprocity, backroom deals, distributing the spoils and even capitulation. JDV is not about principles, integrity nor consistency. He may be an all-too-willing tool for the opposition, but he has so compromised himself that he will only create a tiny ripple, historically and in the future.
DevilsAdvc8 on Tue, 5th Feb 2008 1:24 pm
no. let them rot in here along with their assets and rent-seeking asses.
but of course we all know the moneyed have always lived with just one foot in the country and the other overseas. they are always the first ones to leave at the slightest hint of trouble. that’s why they’re also the least who care about reforms so long as they can gorge on their feasts.
my message is to the middle class. yes. those who are able to and those who wish to. don’t burn yourselves out investing in a country which doesn’t invest back in you. simply put, there is no ROI in building your future here.
my message is, let the system collapse in on itself.
kimosabe27 on Tue, 5th Feb 2008 1:25 pm
To JDV:
So, how’s life in the gutter?
UP n student on Tue, 5th Feb 2008 1:28 pm
Kabayan and Mike:
Many of the points you raise are based on the premise that 2010 brings a dictatorship. The MAGIC OF 2010 is that it is premised on transition of power based on the rules specified in the Constitution. The current Constitution specifies term-limits which one would think will disallow rulers-in-perpetuity.
It is evident that the optimism that Liam displays in GMA is also premised on his expectation that she – GMA – follows the Constitution in the same manner that she – GMA — hides behind the Constitution and its impeachment-rules.
Discussions about a maturing electorate make sense. Discussions about a maturing electorate do not make sense only for those goons whose intent is to discard and disrespect and prevent the wishes of a maturing electorate to be expressed. These may be goons affiliated to those who are outside power or these may be goons affiliated to those who are in power, but they are goons nonetheless.
Mike on Tue, 5th Feb 2008 1:34 pm
UP n student,
That’s right: the *current* Constitution.
The Equalizer on Tue, 5th Feb 2008 1:34 pm
It is a no-brainer to expect the unexpected in Pinoy politics.Here are The Equalizer’s 10 bold predictions of the aftermath of the ouster of Joe De Venecia from the speakership:
1)The Lakas Party is officially dead.
2)The exodus of Lakas stalwarts to Gloria’s Kampi party.
3)Kampi will now be the dominant party.
4)FVR and JDV will be completely marginalized.
5)Expect more bombs and explosive exposes from JDV.But will he be credible after
remaining silent all these years???
6)Ronnie Puno will emerge as the most powerful political kingpin because of Kampi.
7)Nograles will spearhead another CHA-CHA to extend Gloria’s hold on power beyond 2010.
8)The political opposition will exploit the JDV ouster.
9)There will be political instability AGAIN!Emergency rule again?
10)No elections in 2010.
Who wants to bet?
Mike on Tue, 5th Feb 2008 1:35 pm
Equalizer,
There may be elections in 2010…PARLIAMENTARY elections.
inodoro ni emilie on Tue, 5th Feb 2008 1:36 pm
devils, i don’t understand why you are providing the middle class an escape chute when their silence and indifference have contributed largely to the decay of the situation. if the system collapses, let them crumble with it; if they do not want the system to collapse–i say, stay and hold on, but drive those evils away!
anthony scalia on Tue, 5th Feb 2008 1:37 pm
to those drooling for another people power:
in 1986 its JPE
in 2001 its Chavit
in 2008 its…..JDV?
JPE and Chavit were insiders, in the inner circle of power, when they turned against the reigning powers. JDV fits that description.
if the opposition couldn’t get JDV to their side, mga engot talaga sila. JDV opening a pandora’s box is more than enough to offset the ‘ka-engotan’ of the opposition
a ‘balimbing na JDV’ is a crisis much bigger than ‘Hello Garci’.
the opposition should learn from their blunder in ‘Hello Garci’ – it was a ‘game’ gloria didn’t win but the opposition lost (to use basketball terms)
isa sa mga problema ng opposition ngayon, if they can get JDV to cooperate without JDV becoming the undisputed ‘opposition leader’. papayag kaya si JDV na hanggang ‘pagkanta’ lang?
abangan!
DevilsAdvc8 on Tue, 5th Feb 2008 1:38 pm
mlq3, don’t you mean destroying the republic? (whatever that means) because now it has only 2 branches of govt instead of three. it isn’t 3 speakers, but one lady – now both speaker and president.
and who says we can lay complacent on Melo’s appointment? perhaps the Melo commission was just a farce, meant to portray Melo as some kind of independent justice.
ah, the tragedy of it all. i wasn’t born yet when Marcos declared martial law. but to see the same events which transpired on those years happening now –
we’re only lacking someone personifying Ninoy. perhaps he (or she) will come out later when the arrests comes. and then the epiphany when one gets solitary confinement. must be nice if it happens to Cayetano (or even funnier to one of the pro-arroyo bishops). twisted poetic justice.
kimosabe27 on Tue, 5th Feb 2008 1:38 pm
My oh my, vengeance indeed is a viand best served cold.
I remember those agonizing days during the botched impeachment attempts when every critical move made by the opposition is thwarted by the wheeling-dealing of this cretinous, lowlife of a man.
Belat, a thousand times belat to you o big-eared buffoon.
tonio on Tue, 5th Feb 2008 1:38 pm
such fun.
Mike on Tue, 5th Feb 2008 1:38 pm
Have you read the accounts of JdV’s speech? The part where he points out how he defended Gloria so many times before…can only be responded to with a “buti nga sa yo.” So pathetic.
Mike on Tue, 5th Feb 2008 1:42 pm
Scalia,
JdV triggering a People Power? Not bloody likely. Not by himself anyway.
cvj on Tue, 5th Feb 2008 1:44 pm
Liam Tinio, i do imagine that GMA together with her allies in the business community (e.g. Razon), her backers in the military (i.e. Esperon) and technocrats (like Neri) see themselves as some sort of vanguard elite similar to LKY (and his PAP) in Singapore. That’s the conceit that comes from an elitist mindset, and shows precisely why Washington Sycip’s vision is flawed when applied in the Philippine setting.
Kabayan on Tue, 5th Feb 2008 1:49 pm
UP n student,
excerpt: “… Many of the points you raise are based on the premise that 2010 brings a dictatorship. The MAGIC OF 2010 is that it is premised on transition of power based on the rules specified in the Constitution. The current Constitution specifies term-limits which one would think will disallow rulers-in-perpetuity…”
That is correct, that is why I enumerated the 9 (known and analyzed) strategies that would likely bring about a dictatorship (Charter Change being one of them.) That is also why we have to carefully study the 9 points I raised above and do the appropriate countermeasures, otherwise the MAGIC OF 2010 you mentioned will be a stillbirth, or to be more accurate, an aborted child.
joeycon on Tue, 5th Feb 2008 1:51 pm
We reap what we sow. We deserve the government we get by our actions and inactions.
Kabayan on Tue, 5th Feb 2008 1:56 pm
joeycon said
“…We reap what we sow. We deserve the government we get by our actions and inactions.”
———-
Well said.
tonio on Tue, 5th Feb 2008 2:01 pm
a JDV led EDSA? oh man, now that’s positively hilarious.
which leads me to this question though, what can a populace in a representative REALLY do in a situation like this?
the government has increasingly demonstrated that it doesn’t give a flying f*** about the will of the people, so what can the people do?
DevilsAdvc8 on Tue, 5th Feb 2008 2:04 pm
tonio, blog some more?
kimosabe27 on Tue, 5th Feb 2008 2:13 pm
The good thing is, people will no longer be wondering why JDV resembles that moping little dwarf named Dopey.
kimosabe27 on Tue, 5th Feb 2008 2:19 pm
So Yoda, how does it feels like to be kicked in the nuts?
“High pitched, now my voice is.”
Kabayan on Tue, 5th Feb 2008 2:29 pm
Right now, it is a “fight or flight” choice for the middle class and below. However, those who cannot choose “flight” must learn to fight. Never in any instance freeze and stare round-eyed at the headlights of an approaching speeding car.
inodoro ni emilie on Tue, 5th Feb 2008 2:39 pm
balimbing is a trait expected of politicians who have no moral values; hello garci is not expected from a leader who projects to uphold constitutional value. so which is the bigger crisis?
Mike on Tue, 5th Feb 2008 3:08 pm
Thinking about the House post-JDV reminded me of this animated gem, Europe vs. Italy, by Bruno Bozzetto, which seems to describe a people other than the Italians:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2VDSHkS5tU
Please pay special attention to the Elections and Politics sections! Enjoy!
Madonna on Tue, 5th Feb 2008 3:09 pm
JDV’s ovewhelming loss, with only 30 congressmen voting for him to stay as Speaker, exposed the fact that he was only GMA’s proxy head in Congress and could be booted out anytime Madam thinks he’s outlived his usefulness.
Why, Joe DV you were such a disappointment last night in that speech! Everyone was expecting bombs or shit to explode in the faces of GMA and her famille. But hay, no bombs, just echoes of explosions in the past. Where were the skeletons? Guess your closet has more of them than GMA’s, so all you could do was was to do a poor imitation of an aggrieved loser.
“Never in any instance freeze and stare round-eyed at the headlights of an approaching speeding car.”
The speeding car indeed is that of GMA’s increasingly appetite for more power, as shown by the disgraceful spectacle of his sons leading the ouster of the former Speaker. In any case, the speeding car is not yet heading the way of the middle class who have stayed clear of the highway since 2005.
The middle class is still in a relaxed mode and still unmindful of the danger of a looming family dictatorship of the Arroyos, letting the forces at the top fight it out among themselves. It’s not time to worry yet, sabi nga ni Atticus Finch. Besides, we live in different times compared to the 70s when the Marcoses ruled.
I do agree with De Quiros. Let these fuckers destroy one another. The Filipino nation does not deserve any of them as leaders.
qwert on Tue, 5th Feb 2008 3:27 pm
“Discussions about a maturing electorate make sense. Discussions about a maturing electorate do not make sense only for those goons whose intent is to discard and disrespect and prevent the wishes of a maturing electorate to be expressed.” – UP n student
_____________________
The maturity of the electorate should not only be measured by their opportunity to vote and the wisdom behind their votes but also in the courage to protect their votes through vigilance. It must also be measured in the way they make their elected officials accountable by way of peaceful protest.
In the Constitution, Article 111, Section (4) states:
“No law shall be passed abridging the freedom of speech, of expression, or of the press, or the right of the people peaceably to assemble and petition the government for redress of grievances.”
This provision presupposes the maturity of the electorate to exercise their right to protect and assert the sanctity and intent of their votes. Such maturity must not only be manifested during elections, it must be proven through vigilance by knowing what is happening around, to find out if greed,the lust for power and incompetence are corrupting the sanctity of their vote.
Granting that there will be no “elections” in 2010, I wonder if the “maturing electorate” will use their right to peacefully protest. Sad to say,that the people we often see in the streets nowadays are the wrong people protesting for the wrong reasons.
If the electorate is indeed maturing then they are losing the battle by default which means now and not in 2010.
kimosabe27 on Tue, 5th Feb 2008 3:51 pm
So the age of moral relativism in Philippine politics persists. Who the f cares anyway? We missed the boat 20 years ago with Salonga, 10 with Roco, so boohoo. Nihilism may be a short cut (kudos de Quiros), but not everyone’s utak pulbura.
Not everyone is deserving to die anyway, that is, not yet, eh JDV? We need them alive to see them squirming. We saw Marcos’s fall from grace, why not wait a lil bit more for Gloria? Gen Xers like us are in our 30s, so let us weather it out. See how Uday and Qusay Arroyo will be beaten to a pulp.
Liam Tinio on Tue, 5th Feb 2008 3:54 pm
@cvj
“Liam Tinio, i do imagine that GMA together with her allies in the business community (e.g. Razon), her backers in the military (i.e. Esperon) and technocrats (like Neri) see themselves as some sort of vanguard elite similar to LKY (and his PAP) in Singapore. That’s the conceit that comes from an elitist mindset, and shows precisely why Washington Sycip’s vision is flawed when applied in the Philippine setting.”
(will not discuss economic concepts, lets focus on the political aspect, for it is the issue at hand)
it is not conceit, for the singaporean success can be replicated by repeating the same concepts they used. She needs a tame and working legislature, not something that conducts hearings and investigations now and then.
cant you see, that all the bribery she was rumored to have done are all due to the passage of the budget and laws?
name a law she prioritized that was purely for personal or political gain.
she needs laws passed and provisions repealed and amended. that is why she needs a tame legislature, a working legislature, in both houses so that her programs will be implemented right away.
hence it was necessary for JDV to be ousted, for she cannot afford to maintain JDV who for every legislative priority the president pushes, a counterpart favor had to be done. she needs someone who acts without returning the favor and yes she needs a lapdog.
@Kabayan
“Liam Tinio,
No person aiming for dictatorship, destroys democratic institutions and has a history of cover-ups can ever be called “better for the country†”
again i have said that we have toyed with democracy for 21 years and it is such an inefficient form of government with all its checks and balances, inquiries and investigations hampering the way the legislature should be doing in the first place, making laws.
my main premise on why an Arroyo dictatorship will be better is that she is an economist, not a populist leader. she raised our taxes, enforced fiscal discipline and streamlined government offices (read RATIONALIZATION) which are unpopular but the best thing to do. this is proof that she desires a singaporean model of government.
and she does not need all those leftist and populists like estrada and mar roxas who desire to bring down taxes, increase wages and scrap the deregulation law in our executive and legislative branches of government.
and we do not need a JDV whose sole concern is political greatness.
Mike on Tue, 5th Feb 2008 4:05 pm
Liam Tinio:
Why don’t we just dispense with the pretense of democracy altogether and crown her Queen Gloria I? Then she can dissolve Congress and save us a sh*tload of money!!
anthony scalia on Tue, 5th Feb 2008 4:08 pm
Mike, Tonio
JPE and Chavit didn’t actually immediately trigger the previous EDSAs, but they had a very key role nonetheless; they can be deemed proximate causes.
Looking back, who would have thought that they can bring down the sitting presidents? Hilarious? Before the fact, yes.
Mike on Tue, 5th Feb 2008 4:13 pm
Scalia: like I said, not just him. But it can’t be him alone–it’ll take much more.
Kabayan on Tue, 5th Feb 2008 4:18 pm
Liam Tinio said:
“…again i have said that we have toyed with democracy for 21 years and it is such an inefficient form of government with all its checks and balances, inquiries and investigations hampering the way the legislature should be doing in the first place, making laws…”
Your statement betrays your youth Liam, the Philippines toyed with dictatorship for 24 YEARS and it is obvious that you did not experience the hardship of living under a dictatorship. Only those who SUCK UP to the dictator were having a good life. The dictator and his minions SUCKED UP the economic lifeblood of the rest of the Filipinos. That is why we have the dubious honor of having had a President who stole the most in any country and consequently topping this category in the Guinness Book of Records at that time.
As it is Gloria has proved an expert in covering up corruption of her allies and her direct family members while quick to put the thumbscrews those who endeavor to expose her. The anomalies that have been put to fore would have given Ferdie Marcos a run for his money in the Guinness Book of Records.
However, it is not hard for me to imagine for you to succeed in an environment where Gloria is a dictator or Queen of the Philippines.
anthony scalia on Tue, 5th Feb 2008 4:25 pm
inidoro ni emilie,
“balimbing is a trait expected of politicians who have no moral values; hello garci is not expected from a leader who projects to uphold constitutional value. so which is the bigger crisis?”
Could JPE and Chavit be the paragons of morals?
bigger crisis for gloria
so why a new JDV can be a bigger crisis? because he shares something with JPE and Chavit, an insider, an inner circle member that turned against its erstwhile master. he holds many ’smoking guns’ against gloria et al. he himself may be incriminated for them.
we all believed when jueteng lord Chavit squealed jueteng details against Erap.
If public opinion sides with JDV, theres nothing a KAMPI majority in the House can do.
he may well be what the opposition needs.
but it just occurred to me, JPE and Chavit didn’t ally themselves with the ‘opposition’ during their day. so if the objective is to bring down gloria, maybe JDV doesnt need the opposition at all.
considering the present opposition’s penchant for stealing defeat from the jaws of victory, if he hooks up with them JDV’s ‘pagkanta’ could just go pffft as well.
he might as well go it alone
Madonna on Tue, 5th Feb 2008 4:29 pm
Liam Tinio,
You seem to be mistaking GMA’s lapdog Congress for Ramos’ productive efforts of a rainbow coalition a JDV-led Congress in 92-98 — in which the executive and legislature indeed in tandem produced laws that were successful in improving the foudations of the Philippine economy.
GMA’s lapdog Congress has not produced any laws that are comparable to FVR’s time. What GMA’s Congress has produced is the massive corruption in the highest level, with nothing to show for except for the collateral damage to the political system.
FVR, even if he let some corruption greased the political system to work was a statesman and had national interest in mind.
GMA doesn’t come close to being a stateswoman — she is merely corrupt and power-hungry. And don’t let the economic score cards fool you — most of the highlights or acheivements cannot be attributed to her work.
Liam Tinio on Tue, 5th Feb 2008 5:17 pm
@Kabayan
your fear of an autocratic form of government and your refusal of letting go of the past has clouded your mind into accepting that given the chance, it can be possible for the Arroyo to depart from the ways of Marcos and try a different route. do you think that given the infamy of Marcos, GMA would then do a repeat of his actions. It does not follow.
again, you are generalizing my good friend(please allow me to call you friend), if you think that arroyo will be another marcos and his minions will just be sucking up the economic lifeblood of filipinos, then i think its better, i will let them corrupt if it means that i will be enjoying a 7% economic growth year after year.
like how singaporeans treat it.. the heck with democracy if it means that i get to live in a first world country.. with the money i make, i can just go out of the country and practice democracy elsewhere..
@Madonna
your increasing pessimism is purely understandable given the monstrous demolition job done against her. and i do not deny that she has been one corrupt president. but, tell me who isn’t? even fvr has his centennial project and the IPP contracts as well as the PEA AMARI reclamation and the fort bonifacio selling deals.
yes ramos achieved economic growth and development in tandem with congress. but look! gloria also achieved economic growth and development and HELL she did it with a subversive senate, a formidable predecessor, coup attempts, a very riotous house of representatives, and top it with an every now and then impeachment compLaint.. YET IT WAS IN HER TERM THAT WE ACHIEVED RECORD ECONOMIC GROWTH! doesnt that mean that she’s better than ramos? surely you cannot deny her that.
cvj on Tue, 5th Feb 2008 5:31 pm
Liam Tinio, regarding the ‘record economic growth’, if you look back at the previous thread, as well as cross check with the NSCB website, you will see that the t GDP growth figures after year 2000 cannot be compared with the previous years’ (1946 to 1949) because of changes in the way GDP is measured.
http://www.nscb.gov.ph/sna/2007/1stQ2007/2007tnq_1.asp
Furthermore, average family income as of 2006 is lower than it was in 1997. In fact, real average income levels per family have deteriorated to levels last seen in the late 1980’s. Surely you cannot deny that.
Kabayan on Tue, 5th Feb 2008 5:35 pm
Liam Tinio,
excerpt:”…if you think that arroyo will be another marcos and his minions will just be sucking up the economic lifeblood of filipinos, then i think its better, i will let them corrupt if it means that i will be enjoying a 7% economic growth year after year…”
Ah accepting corruption for the 7% growth which only a small section of the Filipinos feel? At least we know where you stand Liam, perhaps you are aware of what is called “moral bankruptcy”? That is exactly what that kind of thinking actually is.
You may learn from this saying, “Those who fail to learn from the mistakes of history are doomed to repeat them.” But then again not. Your lack of experience has clouded your mind or perhaps the dark concept of accepting monetary gain as a justification for corruption did that.
Umm, I carefully choose my friends especially “good friends”, so just call me Kabayan.
cvj on Tue, 5th Feb 2008 5:48 pm
the above should read “(1946 to 1999)”.
anthony scalia on Tue, 5th Feb 2008 5:57 pm
Liam Tinio,
some tips on commenting:
1. if you will use GDP be clear that you’re not referring to welfare/standard of living
2. acknowledge that whether or not the 7.3 is sustainable remains to be seen
3. never credit gloria for any positive economic figure
4. the posters here who belong to the anti-gloria school looks at the country with ‘Hello Graci’ lens, such that anything that gloria can use for ‘pa-pogi points’ will surely be torpedoed here
for example – in reaching GDP. there’s a view that says the 7.3 cant be said to be the biggest in 30 years because the bases used 30 years ago are different. (as if other countries aren’t changing the bases in computing their GDP from time to time and are careful not to compare present figures with past figures where the bases for computing were different). the underlying motive there is that gloria cannot and should not get credit for it (though i subscribe to the view that she cant take credit for the 7.3, as the credit should go to the ordinary Pinoy worker)
it borders on nitpicking actually, but they go out of their way to prove it if only to deny gloria any attempt to claim credit for it.
but on the other hand, its okay to go against the tide.
just remember that they won’t let go of the ‘Hello Garci’ lens
Madonna on Tue, 5th Feb 2008 6:18 pm
Mr. Tinio, I do not go by demolition jobs in assessing her performance and I am no rabid opposition supporter either, fyi. Not by a long shot is she better than Ramos. She is the worst Malacanang occupant since Edsa Uno, by far, in my humble opinion and will suspend judgement whether she is worse than Marcos. Again with the comparative corruption — corruption cannot be completely wiped out in any political system. Ramos as I said allowed corruption, but it is with the motivation of the President for allowing it that counts. Mathathir allowed it and now, Putin’s Russia is allowing it — but there’s no doubt that these leaders are patriots who are after the national interest. Malaysians are proud of their country and of themselves and so are Russian now under Putin. The results are what matter. She tops corruption because she wants power, for power’s sake, with nothing or little to show for results, both in the economy and well-being of the nation in general.
The GDP growth rate levels are not her feats — healthy consumption: these are mostly brought about by remittances of the OFWs; the strong peso, again by the OFW remittances and the continuing weakness of the dollar in the financial markets; services, well the healthy BPO sector in our country is due to the globalization and the rationalization of the cost of labor made by MNCs — doesn’t take much investment promotion by the government to woo companies here. We are in fact losing out to India and Eastern European countries in this regard.
THIS IS THE FACT: GMA IS A BENEFIARY OF A HARDWORKING NATION AND A GLOBALIZED ECONOMIC ENVIRONMENT. With Ramos at the helm in this kind of environment, our GDP would be even double than 7% I bet you that!
In any case, massive migration of the middle classes have reached unprecedented levels under her, and what’s shameful is that she has not done any intervention to stem the flow of brain drain. And what, should I feel sorry for her or be sympathetic because she has a lot of enemies — well, Gloria she has consistently showed that she doesn’t need friends, she likes having enemies. What she needs as events have showed are co-conspirators for her grip on power. So sorry! No way, am I close to praising GMA.
And no, I am an eternal optimist about the future of the Philippines and its people and far from being cynical. Unlike you, it is not just the prospect of a first world status that makes me and my family stay here, heck I love this country just because it is simply the land of my birth and of my ancestors.
BombaStar on Tue, 5th Feb 2008 11:37 pm
Liam Tinio, you are wanted at Ellenville. Try your stuff there. A pretty good training ground for you.
I wonder if you found yourself a good job yet? Hey, that 7% GDP growth should count for something, eh.
Good Luck, buddy.
nash on Tue, 5th Feb 2008 11:50 pm
@ Liam Neeson
“again i have said that we have toyed with democracy for 21 years and it is such an inefficient form of government with all its checks and balances”
Eh?
I hope you don’t have political ambitions.
hawaiianguy on Wed, 6th Feb 2008 3:36 am
Anthony Scalia: “it borders on nitpicking actually, but they go out of their way to prove it if only to deny gloria any attempt to claim credit for it.” Good advice to Liam Tinio!
btw, did you bother to check and read carefully the 2 links on the “break” and “reliability” of GDP? (1. http://www.nscb.gov.ph/sna/2007/1stQ2007/2007tnq_1.asp
; 2. http://www.nscb.gov.ph/announce/ForTheRecord/20july07_reliability.asp)
The explanations provided by NCSB on the issue of non-comparability (by former NEDA chief Felipe Medalla) appear to be apologetic, evasive, nebulous.
Consider these: (my apologies for the long post)
1) “For government officials to now claim that growth is better than the Aquino administration 17 years ago would be inaccurate as present GDP data has been rendered incomparable to data from 10 or 5 years ago, Mr. Medalla added.â€
NSCB Clarification
• As the compiler of the national accounts, NSCB has always recognized the need for the link series. In the past, we were able to produce the link series on a more timely basis; admittedly, we have not done so in recent years due to the severe manpower constraints faced by the NSCB. With the ongoing rationalization program of the government, we have not been allowed to replace a number of staff who retired/transferred to institutions like the Bangko Sentral Ng Pilipinas and the Asian Development Bank. We have reiterated our request for exemption from the prohibition and we hope the Department of Budget and Management (DBM) will recognize the need for us to replenish our depleted manpower resources.
• The following are the breaks in the series: (a) 2000-2002 not linked to the 1946-1999 (as of May 2003); (b) 2003-2005 not linked to the 2002 backwards (as of May 2006); and (c) 2004-2006 not linked to the 2003 backwards (as of May 2007). Details of the breaks can be accessed in the Technical Notes Series, Series 2007-Q1 http://www.nscb.gov.ph/sna/2007/1stQ2007/2007tnq_1.asp
Severe manpower shortage, in three years? So that’s why they cannot compare. But read this other explanation.
2) NCSB: “I. 2000-2003 not linked to the 1949-1999 (as of May 2003)
The revised annual series and quarterly three-year series (2000-2002) released in May 2003, incorporated the updated estimates in Construction using data from Government Owned and Controlled Corporations (GOCCs) from the Department of Finance and revisions in the data sources of the PSNA, which have not been linked to the 1946-1999 series. There were data sources that revised their figures as far back as CY 2000 and the accounts were revised accordingly. Hence, the 2000-2003 series needs to be linked with the earlier series. The levels in the published and the unlinked 2000-2003 three-year series CANNOT THEREFORE BE COMPARED (supplied) with the PSNA link series of 1946 -1999.“
[this is one of the "breaks" in data]
While NCSB is hampered by severe shortage of personnel, other agencies are busily generating new data, updating and revising theirs – for 3 years?
But read the LAST paragraph. Yun pala, hindi naman talaga pwede IKUMPARA. Parang inamin na rin, tama si Medalla. (item #1, above)
[might be well to read all the NCSB explanations to get the context]
Don’t get me wrong. I think the statisticians and other personnel are working very hard. If there is anyone to be blamed, it’s the leaders who should know better.
hawaiianguy on Wed, 6th Feb 2008 4:21 am
Madonna: “In any case, massive migration of the middle classes have reached unprecedented levels under her, and what’s shameful is that she has not done any intervention to stem the flow of brain drain.”
I’d say, doubly shameful that she has, in fact, encouraged them to migrate abroad (nurses, therapists, caregivers, teachers). Just look at those policies in support of outmigration and increasing dollar inflows to RP.
The deteriorating economic conditions for most pinoys under Gloria (yes, FIES tells it all) even serve as “push” that drives out the more functional sectors of society.
Wish she’d export the lawyers and trapos who contribute to dysfunction in Philippine society (sigh!).
tess on Wed, 6th Feb 2008 4:59 am
THIS IS THE FACT: GMA IS A BENEFIARY OF A HARDWORKING NATION AND A GLOBALIZED ECONOMIC ENVIRONMENT.
very true, still she is shameless to claim that all is because of her being the president. nakakasuka!
Bencard on Wed, 6th Feb 2008 5:02 am
hawaiianguy, there you go again with your ignorant tirades of gma. nurses, therapists, caregivers and teachers move heaven and earth to migrate and work abroad on their own volition, not because of encouragement by anyone. they want “to see the world” and make some dollars in the process.
when it was easier for doctors to come to america and work (in the 60’s & 70’s), everybody wanted to be a doctor. medical schools proliferated with enrollment in the hundreds per class. when nurses became in demand, even doctors who couldn’t get admission turned to nursing. again, nursing schools multiplied like mushrooms. same with all the other professions that were “in demand”. the common goal is to go and work abroad.
can you imagine if all those who left the country did not do so? we would have over a hundred million souls occupying a relatively tiny territory, fighting for space, jobs and meager resources. then again, you are in hawaii (i don’t know if as an immigrant or a native).
don’t be ridiculous, “gloria” could not “export” a single professional, including lawyers, if she wanted to. it is the professional’s own decision.
tess on Wed, 6th Feb 2008 5:27 am
bencard, i am one of the hundreds of doctors who became a nurse. what motivated me to leave was not to see the world. it was not even the dollars that i’m earning now.
hawaiianguy on Wed, 6th Feb 2008 6:26 am
Bencard, take it from the one who has experienced it. Tess is right.
Maybe, you were motivated by “seeing the world” (or great USA?), or by $$$$$$? But you left before Gloria became president, right?
DevilsAdvc8 on Wed, 6th Feb 2008 7:12 am
but of course bencard. to leave has always been a personal decision. but is it a forced decision or a free one?
by her policies, she not only encourages professionals to leave in droves, she actually forces them to do so.
how?
shutting out reforms here, disillusioning the youth, making the environment here so unlikeable that any sane professional would want to leave the country…
ampotah. parang naging aside na lang yung kumita ng dolyares. nauna pa ang sight-seeing.
anywhoo, you mean to say that those mothers who tearfully leave their kids do so bec they want to see the world? wow! that’s seeing the glass half-fool.
hawaiianguy on Wed, 6th Feb 2008 7:22 am
Bencard: “nurses, therapists, caregivers and teachers move heaven and earth to migrate and work abroad on their own volition, not because of encouragement by anyone. they want “to see the world†and make some dollars in the process.”
Sorry to say, you’re GROSSLY WRONG there. For a lawyer who believes in “hard facts†rather than internal states (perceptions), your motivation cum-adventurism theory is weak compared to what exists in the field. Sadly, the evidence is not on your side.
If indeed nurses, therapists, etc. really move heaven and earth to migrate and work abroad because of their motivation and desire to see the world, very few or nobody among their kind will be left behind in poor RP.
Not that I discount motivation. But it is something given, a constant rather than a variable in the whole equation, if you’re dealing with a mass phenomenon (e.g., Pinoy diaspora).
What makes mass movement possible is a combination of at least two major factors: push and pull. PUSH: grinding poverty that drives them out + this govt has made it easier for them to leave, etc. PULL: global demand + “better†opportunities elsewhere, etc.
But the pull factors can be experienced thru forces related to social networks (e.g., having friends or relatives already abroad). Govt is integral to this networking thru its constant propaganda, labor attaches, and practices (facilitator, bridge and site of refuge/help), among others. Listen carefully to how Arroyo’s regime glorified and pontificated the OFWs.
Look at POEA, OWWA, Dept of Labor, Commission on Filipinos Overseas (CFO), those policies intended for OFWs (target is at least 1 million annually) as well as those for the already settled (dual citizenship act, absentee voting). They have, in effect, COMMODIFIED labor as “warm bodies” for exports, ENHANCED more dollar inflows, TURNED the world an extension of Pinoy village.
Kabayan on Wed, 6th Feb 2008 8:42 am
Allow me to post a link to remind us what this administration has done, still does and would likely still do in the future.
http://pedestrianobserver.blogspot.com/2007/12/perception-war-vs-reality.html
Add the disappearance of Lozada at NAIA to the list. Either he would return and refuse to testify because of his harrowing experience or would disappear forever (hope the latter does not happen though).
This is the purpose of Objective number 5 as stated above.
At the general’s office responsible for this disappearance he should have a sign posted at the door of his office, “Out for Business Trip, Praetorian Guard at Work”.
TonGuE-tWisTeD on Wed, 6th Feb 2008 8:44 am
Funny, but I thought this Inquirer newsbit was referring to JDV and Gloria: “Don’t Use Glue-traps on Rats”.
anthony scalia on Wed, 6th Feb 2008 8:50 am
DevilsAdvc8,
Its already ingrained in each Pinoy to go abroad. Migrating is more of an emotional decision. Gloria simply provides the rational justification for leaving, immediately. The mind is already made up for immigrating, the Pinoy just wants confirmation that he/she is making the right decision. Looking at gloria gives them that confirmation.
Among other things – immigrants only see the ‘x40′ value of their dollar incomes. but once they arrive there, they realized that the cost of living is also ‘x40′ as well!
I can understand if the purpose is to stay there a little longer, save, live a frugal life, then go back here, so the saved dollars can go a long way.
But to live there permanently for the rest of their lives? Again, among other things, the name of the game is still the same – kayod day in day out. baka nga doble kayod pa kumpara dito.
this is just speculation – many immigrants there want to go back, pero are embarrassed kasi they might be considered as failure. baka nga mas worse pa – walang pamasahe pabalik
i won’t deny that many immigrants are success stories there. but the question is – can’t they reach a similar success level here? can’t anyone who is still here?
ang nakikita ko lang no. 1 benefit of immigrating is being a pensiyonado at libreng health care, from retirement age onwards.
i also won’t deny that there are some jobs/tasks which are not available or scarce here but are in abundance there, which motivate our pros to immigrate. especially kung sa Silicon Valley or Wall Street
ito ang problema ng mga Pinoy – di sinusunod ang sinabi ni JFK – ‘Ask not what your country can do for you. Ask what you can do for your country’
yung mga mayayamang kapitbahay natin – inuna ang bayan nila at hindi inatupag ang pag-migrate.
tess on Wed, 6th Feb 2008 9:13 am
anthony scalia,
this is just speculation – many immigrants there want to go back, pero are embarrassed kasi they might be considered as failure. (When you see your kamag-anak graduating from college because of your hard earned dollar, you don’t call that failure.)
baka nga mas worse pa – walang pamasahe pabalik.( true- instead na ibili ng plane ticket, ipapadala na lang sa Pilipinas.)
ang nakikita ko lang no. 1 benefit of immigrating is being a pensiyonado at libreng health care, from retirement age onwards.( sa isang Pilipino na nagtatrabaho abroad ilan sa tingin mo ang pinag-aaral nya? )
like you said, purely speculation and you speculated wrong.
hawaiianguy on Wed, 6th Feb 2008 9:58 am
Anthony Scalia: “Its already ingrained in each Pinoy to go abroad. Migrating is more of an emotional decision…The mind is already made up for immigrating..”
Another way of naturalizing migratory behavior, which is not backed up social facts. I heard this many times before. Did it occur to you that, within the Philippines, the Ilokanos are one among those who have migrated en masse? (Others include the Cebuanos, Siquijornons, etc.) If you examine their historical and cultural circumstances, migrating elsewhere is not ingrained (natural) in their psyche, nor an emotional impulse that comes out of the blue. Declining resources, esp. land (due to rapid population growth), is what have driven thousands of Ilokanos to leave their villages. Plus the fact they have established social networks (friends and relatives) in their places of destination, which leads others to follow suit.
Just to give you one example, Filipinos in Hawaii are dominated by Ilokanos (about 85% according to some informed estimates) since they started coming in 1906. USA’s liberalized immigration policy in 1965 also hastened it.
“… the Pinoy just wants confirmation that he/she is making the right decision. Looking at gloria gives them that confirmation.”
Agree! Gloria’s policy for the OFW confirms the desire to migrate, but it makes it easier for them (Ilokanos and non-Ilokanos alike) now to leave. That policy lends itself to the making of a mega-social network that draws Pinoys out of RP and unnecessarily contributes to the diaspora.
Right decision? For the individual, yes. For the nation? that’s debatable. But it’s more like the nation is killing itself, slowly…. for the glitter of dollars and short-run hedonism.
DevilsAdvc8 on Wed, 6th Feb 2008 10:05 am
scalia, kahit dumoble kayod ka man don, at least nakikita mong may binubunga ang kinakayod mo. nakakapagpundar ka, secure ka, at higit sa lahat, may laban ka sa mata ng batas! na umabot man sa punto na maghanap ka ng hustisya, may fighting chance ka! dito, meron ba?
equality hindi dolyar ang hanap nila. namin. ako!
mag aplay ka dito ng trabaho anong hahanapin sayo? papel muna bago kwalipikasyon. kuneksyon bago kakayahan. dito, kahit magaling ka, kung wala kang kapit, wala!
doon pinag-aagawan ang mga magagaling! di pa ba kayo nagtataka kung bakit may mga OFW na sa ibang bansa lang umuunlad?
di lang pensyon at healthcare ang habol ng immigrants. peace of mind. na alam nila mag retiro man sila makalawa at bukas, may maasahan sila. na maliit na tao man sila, kapag nagdemanda o nag file ng suit, may laban.
dito kumusta nman ang SSS at GSIS pensioners? si Garcia lang yata at kung sinong hudas ang nasa SSS ngayon ang yumayaman. yan! yan ang ask not what your country can do for you but what you can do to your country! and what they can do to their country is rob it blind!
peace of mind na bukas makalawa, walang magre raid sa bahay nila at manghu-hulidap. na mag drive sila sa lansangan, walang titigil at kokotong sa kanila. peace of mind, na ang mga pulis na naatasang magbantay sa kanilang seguridad ay talagang magbabantay dito, at hindi ang syang unang mangugulo dito!
security hindi pera! katuparan ng pangarap hindi pagtuturista!
sa ibang bansa, posible lahat ng gustuhin mo! dito, sobra pa ang kayod at determinasyon, hanggang kahig tuka lang ang hahalikan mo!
doon, oo, sobra kayod at triple pa ang determinasyon ang kelangan mo, pero at least, may bunga! may bunga!
masdan mo ang ama ko, buong buhay nya andito. capped premium sa SSS at isa pang private life insurance. pero asan ngayon? di makapagretiro at tinakasan na ng private insurance at walang maasahan sa SSS! ayan, nasa mindanao at kumakayod pa rin!
oo, gayahin natin ang kapitbahay mong yumaman sa pangungurakot at pag-una sa bayan. oo, inunahan nila ang bayan. sa gulang!
hawaiianguy on Wed, 6th Feb 2008 10:20 am
Galit na si Devils, hehehehehe! Pero galit din yata si Anthony sa OFW, eh.
tess on Wed, 6th Feb 2008 10:30 am
oo nga, what his beef about working abroad? and pleaseeeee don’t quote JFK to us… tell me what have you done for your country lately?
hawaiianguy on Wed, 6th Feb 2008 10:54 am
I’m still waiting for Bencard to prove his point in response to my “ignorant tirades,” and to his answer to Devils’ retort (“by her policies, [gloria] not only encourages professionals to leave in droves, she actually forces them to do so.”)
alas ka dora on Wed, 6th Feb 2008 12:36 pm
how can a diminutive woman like gma hold us all by the neck. she was able to topple jdv, whom we have known it seemed as an unsinkable political figure and an orchestrator par exellance.
The pandak (we can heckle)has apparently able to ward off all opposition. There seemed to be no credible opposition at this time. We can whine.We can curse.We can gnash our teeth that the she devil is having it all, but what can we do? we are so helpless. We could not think and act right collectively. W deserve to gnash our teeth forever.
alas ka dora on Wed, 6th Feb 2008 12:38 pm
agwanta ka, pinoy.
tess on Wed, 6th Feb 2008 12:55 pm
more on the NBN/ZTE, http://www.ellentordesillas.com/?p=2079
hawaiianguy on Wed, 6th Feb 2008 1:55 pm
Alas ka Dora,
Sugbuanon diay ka? pagbantay baya diha. Dunay usa ka tiguwang dire nga kusog kaayo mosupak sa mga kontra ni pandak. Mura ra ba siyag korek, wa may unod ang ginasulti sa kagwang.
(Trans. to English: Are you Cebuano? Beware, Alas ka Dora! Watch your words, you might step on someone’s toes.)
Bencard on Wed, 6th Feb 2008 2:10 pm
tess, as i said, doctors have been immigrating to the u.s. since when they were first allowed to do so. filipinos have been trying to live and work abroad since the time of quezon and through all the administrations after his. gma has nothing to do with your decision to leave. it’s not fair to blame her for that. she didn’t compel you nor “allowed” you to exercise your right to go wherever you want.
alas ka dora on Wed, 6th Feb 2008 2:30 pm
hawaiianguy,
nahibalo ko na naa dire supsup kaayo kay pandak, and i’d like to step not just on their toes but on their heads.
tess on Wed, 6th Feb 2008 4:23 pm
bencard,
if you ask the people who left the country in the last 5 years why they left, i bet, that one of the reasons they’ll give you is gloria or her goverment… sad, but true.
vic on Wed, 6th Feb 2008 5:26 pm
ang nakikita ko lang no. 1 benefit of immigrating is being a pensiyonado at libreng health care, from retirement age onwards.
That maybe true in some countries that health care benefits starts from retirements onwards, but in some like Great Britain, Canada and other commonwealth countries, Health benefits start the day you are born..it just varies on a little before retirement, like medications for maintenance are not covered for those who are gainfully employed, but more than covered by extended health care by employers, buy for those without means still covered by government drug plans..Education is publicly funded.
But I agree that there are a lot of immigrants that are not quite successful in their careers and just hoping that their Children educated in the system will have a different future than them and been here for more than 3 decades now and Im seeing the good results…
vic on Wed, 6th Feb 2008 5:40 pm
tess, met a lot of new immigrants, young and mostly professionals, since the country had recently open its doors to independent family migrants with the quota of around 10,000 for the Philippines annually, there is a 4 to 5 years waiting list, some on top of their career successes that and mainly the reasons of their move is the uncertainties of the future, the dwindling resources, and the Poor Public services for their taxes..and of course the adventure for a new experience..few regretted the move, especially if they can’t find the job expected, but somehow too late to go back for to start all over again is even worse…
For the difference of Governance, that is just an Afterthought, and quite a few can not believe How Bad the country’s Politics as soon as they experience how it is in the Progressive and Mature North..while they were still there, most think was just normal..for they too were part of it…
The Equalizer on Wed, 6th Feb 2008 5:44 pm
From The Center for Media Freedom and Responsibility
Murphy’s Law is at work in the case of radio commentator Alex Adonis. Penniless and abandoned by his lawyer and employer, the former Bombo Radyo broadcaster is now languishing in jail for libel.
Adonis was convicted of libel for reporting that Davao Rep. Prospero Nograles (now Speaker)ran naked in a hotel in Manila after the woman’s husband allegedly caught them in bed in July 2001. The story was broadcast by Bombo Radyo in General Santos City.
The Manila-based tabloid Abante Tonite picked up the reported incident, which became known as the “Burlesk King†scandal.
Nograles denied the incident. Aside from Adonis, he also sued Dan Vicente, Bombo Radyo station manager, and Abante Tonite for libel.
Adonis, who has been in media for 18 years, was a hard-hitting political commentator. He was reported to have “lambasted on air drug lords and members of crime syndicates, government offi-cials, and erring policemen.â€
anthony scalia on Wed, 6th Feb 2008 9:46 pm
tess,
“like you said, purely speculation and you speculated wrong.”
but that doesn’t mean you’re not speculating as well
in short – we’re both wrong!
anthony scalia on Wed, 6th Feb 2008 10:28 pm
DevilsAdvc8,
“scalia, kahit dumoble kayod ka man don, at least nakikita mong may binubunga ang kinakayod mo. nakakapagpundar ka, secure ka, at higit sa lahat, may laban ka sa mata ng batas! na umabot man sa punto na maghanap ka ng hustisya, may fighting chance ka! dito, meron ba?”
sorry my friend, pero modesty aside i’m just one of many living examples na di na kailangang lumabas ng bansa para maka-achieve ng some level of asenso. not filthy rich, but a relatively comfortable life.
“equality hindi dolyar ang hanap nila. namin. ako!”
nakapagtataka. kaming mga nabiyayaan ng Dakilang Lumikha dito, nakamit na yang equality na sinasabi mo
“mag aplay ka dito ng trabaho anong hahanapin sayo? papel muna bago kwalipikasyon. kuneksyon bago kakayahan. dito, kahit magaling ka, kung wala kang kapit, wala!”
di nga maganda yang ganyang practice. pero mali naman yata na sabihing yan ang norm
“doon pinag-aagawan ang mga magagaling! di pa ba kayo nagtataka kung bakit may mga OFW na sa ibang bansa lang umuunlad?”
nagtataka rin. kaming mga nagtitiis dito, umuunlad din! marami pa ring magagaling dito!
“di lang pensyon at healthcare ang habol ng immigrants. peace of mind. na alam nila mag retiro man sila makalawa at bukas, may maasahan sila. na maliit na tao man sila, kapag nagdemanda o nag file ng suit, may laban.”
sorry kaibigan, pero may peace of mind kaming mga naiwan dito.
as to lawsuits – iho, trust me, may laban din dito. and sorry to say, pero kindly ask bencard to confirm your speculation (on the lawsuits)
“dito kumusta nman ang SSS at GSIS pensioners? si Garcia lang yata at kung sinong hudas ang nasa SSS ngayon ang yumayaman. yan! yan ang ask not what your country can do for you but what you can do to your country! and what they can do to their country is rob it blind!”
huli ka! o see? perceived na mas maganda ang pension abroad kaysa SSS and GSIS! kaya nag-abroad na.
tsk tsk tsk tsk tsk yan ganyang mga attitude ang mga walang malasakit sa bayan!
kaya mayaman ang US at Canada ngayon ay dahil may mga naunang henerasyon na nagsakripisyo.
“peace of mind na bukas makalawa, walang magre raid sa bahay nila at manghu-hulidap. na mag drive sila sa lansangan, walang titigil at kokotong sa kanila. peace of mind, na ang mga pulis na naatasang magbantay sa kanilang seguridad ay talagang magbabantay dito, at hindi ang syang unang mangugulo dito!”
eh ano ngayon? yan ang basehan mo sa pag-migrate!!???!!! napakababaw! para namang nararanasan yan ng bawat isa sa 90 million Pinoys
subukan mo ngang tumira ng napakatagal sa mga inner cities sa states. mag immerse ka doon.
subukan mo ring mag-drive ng kotse sa Manhattan during rush hour
“security hindi pera! katuparan ng pangarap hindi pagtuturista!”
iho, we feel and are secure here. wala naman kami sa Basilan
“sa ibang bansa, posible lahat ng gustuhin mo! dito, sobra pa ang kayod at determinasyon, hanggang kahig tuka lang ang hahalikan mo!”
tsk tsk tsk tsk tsk easy way out ka lang. maraming umaasenso dito, di na kailangang umalis.
“doon, oo, sobra kayod at triple pa ang determinasyon ang kelangan mo, pero at least, may bunga! may bunga!”
sorry my friend, maraming living examples to rebut yang napakasweeping assertion mo.
“masdan mo ang ama ko, buong buhay nya andito. capped premium sa SSS at isa pang private life insurance. pero asan ngayon? di makapagretiro at tinakasan na ng private insurance at walang maasahan sa SSS! ayan, nasa mindanao at kumakayod pa rin!”
sorry to say, pero ama mo yan. yan ang situwasyon mo. wag mong idamay ang situwasyon ng iba.
“oo, gayahin natin ang kapitbahay mong yumaman sa pangungurakot at pag-una sa bayan. oo, inunahan nila ang bayan. sa gulang!”
iho, mahiya ka naman sa sinasabi mo. maraming umaasenso dito ng dahil sa sariling sikap at marangal na paraan.
saka aminin mo na – naghahanap ka lang ng rational justification to confirm your desire to migrate
anthony scalia on Wed, 6th Feb 2008 10:35 pm
hawaiianguy,
“Pero galit din yata si Anthony sa OFW, eh.”
no.
nabasa mo yung post nya right? typical Pinoy na atat na atat mag-migrate
gloria is just a mere confirmation of the deeply ingrained desire and decision to migrate
anthony scalia on Wed, 6th Feb 2008 10:50 pm
hawaiianguy,
“Another way of naturalizing migratory behavior, which is not backed up social facts. I heard this many times before. Did it occur to you that, within the Philippines, the Ilokanos are one among those who have migrated en masse? (Others include the Cebuanos, Siquijornons, etc.) If you examine their historical and cultural circumstances, migrating elsewhere is not ingrained (natural) in their psyche, nor an emotional impulse that comes out of the blue. Declining resources, esp. land (due to rapid population growth), is what have driven thousands of Ilokanos to leave their villages. Plus the fact they have established social networks (friends and relatives) in their places of destination, which leads others to follow suit”
not backed up by data because no one has attempted to quantify that (underlying reason to migrate).
i differentiated the underlying reasons and the confirmatory reason. declining resources et al confirmed the decision to migrate
saka contrary to what you said, its ingrained in their minds to migrate. at first, the target of migration is just Manila
“Just to give you one example, Filipinos in Hawaii are dominated by Ilokanos (about 85% according to some informed estimates) since they started coming in 1906. USA’s liberalized immigration policy in 1965 also hastened it.”
no problem with 1906. at that time its more than easy for the ‘little brown americans’ to join their ‘benevolent big white american brothers’ in the mainland.
no problem also with what happened 1965-onwards. there’s no measurement of the underlying reasons they migrated!
“Agree! Gloria’s policy for the OFW confirms the desire to migrate, but it makes it easier for them (Ilokanos and non-Ilokanos alike) now to leave. That policy lends itself to the making of a mega-social network that draws Pinoys out of RP and unnecessarily contributes to the diaspora.”
no sir. the perception that the country is hopeless under gloria confirms the decision to migrate! my friend, no OFW or only a few OFWs are aware of ‘gloria’s policy for OFWs’
“Right decision? For the individual, yes. For the nation? that’s debatable. But it’s more like the nation is killing itself, slowly…. for the glitter of dollars and short-run hedonism.”
colonial mentality contributed to that. it gave the lens that give glitter to ‘dollars and short-run hedonism’
anthony scalia on Wed, 6th Feb 2008 11:06 pm
tess,
“(When you see your kamag-anak graduating from college because of your hard earned dollar, you don’t call that failure.)”
oh yes thats not a failure! the kamag-anak remained here!
im assuming that the kamag-anak did not suffer from the physical absence and guidance of the immigrant
baka naman isisisi pa kay gloria ang madaming anak/dependents
“(true- instead na ibili ng plane ticket, ipapadala na lang sa Pilipinas.)”
bakit ayaw pa rin umuwi?
“(sa isang Pilipino na nagtatrabaho abroad ilan sa tingin mo ang pinag-aaral nya?)”
mare, alam mo ba kung bakit able sya mag-paaral ng more than one? dahil di na nya concern ang health coverage!
anthony scalia on Wed, 6th Feb 2008 11:09 pm
should read ‘physical absence and absence of guidance’
Bert on Thu, 7th Feb 2008 1:29 am
“GMA is truly determined to achieve her vision for the country, and she will do whatever means necessary to realize that goal, and that is admirable. realpolitik at its finest.– Liam Tinio
her vision for the country running backwards for 8 years, and now to be fast-forwarded in 2 years, heheh.
tess on Thu, 7th Feb 2008 4:09 am
anthony scalia, you have have refuted everything that’s been said by me, devils and hawaiianguy punto per punto. i’m not going to argue with you because i think we are not going anywhere with that. but, with what you have written allow me to profile you.
1. you’re are rich, not filthy rich YET, but definitely not middle class. me marangal kang trabaho, maybe the boss of your own company?
2. you have equality and peace of mind, you’re rich.
3. you have been to New York or likes to read travel magazines. i’ll go with the former.
4. you can buy the best lawyer money can buy, you’re rich.
5. you don’t live in basilan, somewhere in manila perhaps? alabang? sta rosa? in one of those posh villages?
6. you have an insurance better than SSS and GSIS… you’re rich.
7. you have a beef with kamag-anak being left behind… who left you behind at di na umuwi?
Bencard on Thu, 7th Feb 2008 4:32 am
tess, blaming gma for your decision to migrate is like blaming your parents for not being wealthy enough so you don’t have to work hard.
hawaiianguy, the ofw services set up by the government are for the benefit of ofw’s who are working, or seeking to work, abroad. it’s mostly for their protection from rapacious recruiters and foreign employers, and to monitor their safety in the foreign location. this is part of government’s responsibility to its citizens. i don’t think they are established for the purpose of “encouraging” migration. would you rather have the government just leave these ofw’s to their own devices in an alien place?
aileen on Thu, 7th Feb 2008 5:00 am
who was that actress with whom Nograles had an affair? i heard she’s the wife of Nograles’ campaign manager? hmmm who could that be?
anyway, i don’t like Nograles, another gloria’s pet. damn! can they just all burn in hell??? so that all of Filipinos can finally be a happy nation. what a peaceful country this will be if all those corrupt jerks perish?!
(hope this happen anytime soon)
(hope gloria arroyo be ousted anytime soon)
(hope the arroyo brothers (in the guise of congressmen) vanish in the dark)
(hope gloria’s husband go with them)
hawaiianguy on Thu, 7th Feb 2008 5:24 am
Bencard: “i don’t think they are established for the purpose of “encouraging†migration. would you rather have the government just leave these ofw’s to their own devices in an alien place?”
You’re right. There’s nothing in the policy that says “encouragement,” “let’s go OFW,” etc. That’s the “fine print” (“latent function” of messages) embedded in such policy, or symbolized by POEA, CFO, etc. – which people SEE or READ.
Agree, it’s better if OFWs are guided rather than left to their own devices. But have you ever entered any of those offices and inquired how they do it?
Btw, even former SC Justice Artemio Panganiban wrote a biting piece on OFW, when he himself experienced how a govt office shabbily treated his OFW daughter.
If that can happen to a known, ranking official of the land, how much more for the ordinary OFWs? he lamented.
I think you should also check who are those rapacious recruiters. Some of them are ranking govt officials themselves, Mike Defensor will tell you more about it.
Also, pls try checking what happens to the OWWA funds, esp. during the Lebanon crisis.
DinaPinoy on Thu, 7th Feb 2008 7:51 am
you think so? to whom? singapore has one-party system.
anthony scalia on Thu, 7th Feb 2008 8:25 am
tess,
“you have have refuted everything that’s been said by me, devils and hawaiianguy punto per punto.”
thank you
“i’m not going to argue with you because i think we are not going anywhere with that.”
agreed.
“but, with what you have written allow me to profile you”
be my guest
“1. you’re are rich, not filthy rich YET, but definitely not middle class. me marangal kang trabaho, maybe the boss of your own company?”
at best, only upper middle class. by the grace of God
its only a small company, < 10 employees, with modest income
“2. you have equality and peace of mind, you’re rich.”
im not rich. equality and peace of mind are internal features, meaning, i don’t let external forces get in the way of having ‘equality and peace of mind’.
“3. you have been to New York or likes to read travel magazines. i’ll go with the former”
no, the farthest I’ve gone to outside Asia is Sweden. i just happen to know some New York City residents
“4. you can buy the best lawyer money can buy, you’re rich.”
magagalit si bencard sa yo. lawyers aren’t ‘bought’ they’re hired
no, i don’t have the means to hire P4,000-an-hour lawyers
“5. you don’t live in basilan, somewhere in manila perhaps? alabang? sta rosa? in one of those posh villages?”
somewhere in Rizal, in a middle class subdivision
“6. you have an insurance better than SSS and GSIS… you’re rich.”
im not rich. by the grace of God, i was able to get coverage ‘better than SSS’
“7. you have a beef with kamag-anak being left behind… who left you behind at di na umuwi?’
ah no, i don’t have a beef with those ‘left behind’
baka you are referring to a TNT na talagang di na makauwi
sa awa ng Diyos wala akong kapamilya/kapuso na nag-migrate sa abroad na i have to depend on. yung mga kamag-anak kong OFWs became as such more for professional than economic reasons – na-assign ng company, nag-work sa Silicon Valley, nag-work sa Wall Street, nabigyan ng upper management position, etc.
let me be clear from the onset – ibahin natin ang OFW sa nag-migrate. at least yung OFW, may intention pang bumalik at remain a Pinoy.
DinaPinoy on Thu, 7th Feb 2008 8:55 am
bilang isang dating OFW na natuluyang nag ‘migrate’, sa tingin ko walang pagkakaiba. actually ang first gen immigrants, ang feeling palaging pauwi ng pinas. kaya ayun, pag nagbabakasyon, sa pinas palagi ang bagsak. sa tingin ko, ang mga nag-migrate ay OFWs na mahahaba ang contracts. sila nga lang ang mag didisisyon kung kailan matatapos. ang drawback dito, the 2nd gen for sure will not be a pinoy anymore.
tess on Thu, 7th Feb 2008 9:03 am
i stand corrected, you don’t buy lawyers you hire them. i hope no one in my family read about that, i’m related to one, and no he’s not P4000/hr.
when in NYC you have to rely on your legs and the subway to get from point A to point B.
you mis-understood #7, read it again.
i need to read more books on profiling or watch more ncis perhaps, but you have to admit i was not bad at all.
anthony scalia on Thu, 7th Feb 2008 10:40 am
tess,
“when in NYC you have to rely on your legs and the subway to get from point A to point B”
so as far as commuting/travelling is concerned, ano ang pinagkaiba ng NYC sa Metro Manila? efficient ang transpo system? what i was referring to is travel by car, not going from A to B in general
“you mis-understood #7, read it again.”
no i didnt. you misunderstood my answer. read my response to your no. 7 again, please
“i need to read more books on profiling or watch more ncis perhaps, but you have to admit i was not bad at all”
if it will make you feel good, oh sige – you were not bad at all
DevilsAdvc8 on Thu, 7th Feb 2008 10:48 am
“sorry my friend, pero modesty aside i’m just one of many living examples na di na kailangang lumabas ng bansa para maka-achieve ng some level of asenso. not filthy rich, but a relatively comfortable life.”
my family live with our heads above water too, if that’s what you mean. if you’re just one of many who doesn’t need to go abroad to succeed, then congratulations. but that still doesn’t take away the fact, that much more than your “many,” majority of pinoys don’t feel that way. bec if what you say is true, then we won’t have the millions leaving now, will we? so your “one of many” is actually a minority.
“nakapagtataka. kaming mga nabiyayaan ng Dakilang Lumikha dito, nakamit na yang equality na sinasabi mo”
nakapagtataka, kaming mga pinagkaitan ng Poong Maykapal, di makamit yang equality tinatamasa nyong mga biniyayaan ng Dakilang Lumikha. naknamputsa, baka magkaiba dyos natin!
“di nga maganda yang ganyang practice. pero mali naman yata na sabihing yan ang norm”
mali mang sabihin, at masama mang pakinggan, pero yan pa rin ang katotohanan. iyan ang NORM. ang meritocracy ang exception. maglibot ka sa lahat ng opisina, pribado man at publiko at kausapin mo ang mga empleyado, o mas mabuti pa, mga HR personnel ang tanungin mo, sila ang makapag papatunay sayo nito.
“nagtataka rin. kaming mga nagtitiis dito, umuunlad din! marami pa ring magagaling dito!”
kayong mga nagtitiis? akala ko ba you’re living a “relatively comfortable life?” ba’t bigla kang nagtiis? okay, uumunlad rin. pero di mo pa rin maipagkakaila, minority kayo. at karamihan (ok, di ko nilalahat) umuunlad sa pangungurakot. meron sigurong mga katulad mo, kumikita sa maayos na paaran, pero majority pa rin sa minority nyong grupo, ay umasenso sa korapsyon. pero agree ako, marami talagang magagaling dito. yung nga lang, karamihan nabubulok at di nabibigyan ng tsansang maipakita ang tunay nilang galing. nauungusan kasi ng magugulang. papano, magugulang rin ang namumuno ng bansa.
“sorry kaibigan, pero may peace of mind kaming mga naiwan dito.”
buti pa kayo. kumusta naman kaya yung ibang di kasing “unlad” mo?
“as to lawsuits – iho, trust me, may laban din dito. and sorry to say, pero kindly ask bencard to confirm your speculation (on the lawsuits)”
may laban talaga – yung mayayaman at may koneksyon. pumunta ka nga sa ibaba at nang malaman mo ang kalakaran. magpaka pobre ka, makisalamuha ka sa masa, better yet, mag volunteer ka sa PAO, baka matauhan ka na ang hustisyang tini-take for granted mo, di makamit-kamit ng iba. at oo, patotohanan yan ni bencard, na sa ‘tate, walang mayaman at mahirap sa mata ng batas (at least most of the time)
“huli ka! o see? perceived na mas maganda ang pension abroad kaysa SSS and GSIS! kaya nag-abroad na.”
huh? perceived? di lang perceived, proven to be true. pero as i said, kahit wala yan, dun lang sa posibilidad ng katuparan ng mga pangarap – yun lang, mag aabroad na ako.
“tsk tsk tsk tsk tsk yan ganyang mga attitude ang mga walang malasakit sa bayan!”
kaya pala ang sangkatutak nating mga pulitiko, andito kasi may malasakit sila sa bayan. now i get it.
“kaya mayaman ang US at Canada ngayon ay dahil may mga naunang henerasyon na nagsakripisyo.”
hello? kaya mayaman ang US at Canada ngayon dahil yung mga pinagsakripisyohan ng mga naunang henerasyon ay hindi winaldas ng gobyerno nila. nagsakripisyo rin ang nauna nating henerasyon, winaldas lang nga ng mga nagdaang administrasyon.
“eh ano ngayon? yan ang basehan mo sa pag-migrate!!???!!! napakababaw! para namang nararanasan yan ng bawat isa sa 90 million Pinoys”
mababaw ba? so 89.999 million lang ang nakakaranas nyan. swerte mo naman at pinagpala ka talaga.
“subukan mo ngang tumira ng napakatagal sa mga inner cities sa states. mag immerse ka doon. subukan mo ring mag-drive ng kotse sa Manhattan during rush hour”
wag kang mag-alala. susubukan ko yan.
“sorry my friend, maraming living examples to rebut yang napakasweeping assertion mo.”
mas sorry ako sayo, pero mas maraming DEAD examples para di lang i-rebut, kundi patalsikin sa kalawakan ang rebuttal mo.
“sorry to say, pero ama mo yan. yan ang situwasyon mo. wag mong idamay ang situwasyon ng iba.”
nagbibigay ako ng concrete example. at di ko man idamay, ganyan din ang sitwasyon ng nakakararaming pinoy. sinasabi ko nga, who you? at the upper 10% of the population?
“iho, mahiya ka naman sa sinasabi mo. maraming umaasenso dito ng dahil sa sariling sikap at marangal na paraan.”
pakilala mo ko ha. tapos pakilala rin kita sa kilala kong umasenso sa kabaligtarang paraan. pero turo ko lang sayo ha. di ko kasi sila personally kakilala. paramihan tayo.
“saka aminin mo na – naghahanap ka lang ng rational justification to confirm your desire to migrate”
naghahanap? di ko na kailanganga hanapin. it’s staring me right in the face! rational justification? tanga lang ang magdedesisyon ng walang rational justification.
i weighed my pros and cons, and i made my decision. nauna ang rationalizing, bago pumasok ang desire.
sige, gudlak sa pagretiro mo dito into a “comfortable life.”
tess on Thu, 7th Feb 2008 11:44 am
anthony scalia,
“if it will make you feel good, oh sige – you were not bad at all”
coming from someone who argued about everything, i’ll take that as a complement. i don’t believe for one minute that you will let me get away with something unless you really think so…ciao.
hawaiianguy on Thu, 7th Feb 2008 12:21 pm
Anthony Scalia,
Kaya pala, I envy you for being in the top 10% of the social pyramid. Now, I can see your perspective of people who migrate, OFWs included. You are very lucky, my friend.
Have you ever imagined, better yet lived with those at the bottom 30%? And saw how they conduct their lives? You’re indeed lucky.
Devils, “mali mang sabihin, at masama mang pakinggan, pero yan pa rin ang katotohanan. iyan ang NORM. ang meritocracy ang exception.â€
I see that happening in many places I’ve visited outside of Manila. New teachers can’t be hired, despite their civil service eligibility, because someone is “better connected†or has already pledged his yet-to-be-collected 3 months salary. So, tiis muna sila as “substitute†or “casual.†Visit some provinces in the Visayas and Mindanao, that’s a glaring practice.
That’s one of the “push†factors of migration I mentioned earlier.
grd on Thu, 7th Feb 2008 12:38 pm
kawawa naman, penniless and abandoned. so what’s his colleagues doing about his case? those defenders of press freedom, where are they now? bakit hindi man lang matulungan yung kasamahan nila na nagdurusa sa loob ng kulungan? ang nagpakulong ay aso pa naman ni gloria arroyo. bakit pinabayaan at ni hindi man lang ata binibigyang pansin ng mga malalaking tv stations at mga diyaryo? eto ba ay sa dahilang hindi kilala at hindi taga maynila yung nabanggit na miyembro ng media? o dahil miyembro din ng media ang isang involve? palakasan din pala?
anthony scalia on Thu, 7th Feb 2008 6:12 pm
tess,
“coming from someone who argued about everything, i’ll take that as a complement. i don’t believe for one minute that you will let me get away with something unless you really think so…ciao.”
kaya nga yun ang sinulat ko. as much as possible, hanggang makakaya ko, i won’t get in the way of someone else’s own joy.
hey, i sincerely appreciate people
anthony scalia on Thu, 7th Feb 2008 11:33 pm
hawaiianguy,
“Kaya pala, I envy you for being in the top 10% of the social pyramid. Now, I can see your perspective of people who migrate, OFWs included. You are very lucky, my friend.
Have you ever imagined, better yet lived with those at the bottom 30%? And saw how they conduct their lives? You’re indeed lucky.”
envy me? for being in the top 10%? social pyramid? lucky? perspective on people who migrate/become OFWs? not knowing how to live like the bottom 30%?
im truly disappointed. even though its in written form i can sense its tenor. how could you describe me as such? insinuating that im matapobre?
mas mayaman ka pa sa amin! you’re in the US, earning precious dollars, x 40! your net worth is a lot bigger than mine! compared to you, im in the bottom 30% of the ’social pyramid’
what if i tell you i was born to a family belonging to that bottom 30%? (i am)
thanks to our parents, and by my hard work, by the grace of God, i got out of that bottom 30%. without ever being an OFW, without migrating
why? what did i sat against OFWs/migrants that made you write that way?
my point has always been one need not leave the country, either as an OFW or as an immigrant, to reach a level of economic well-being. in my own modest way i want to change the propensity of the Pinoy to believe that the grass is always greener outside the country.
tsk tsk tsk tsk tsk
“I see that happening in many places I’ve visited outside of Manila. New teachers can’t be hired, despite their civil service eligibility, because someone is “better connected†or has already pledged his yet-to-be-collected 3 months salary. So, tiis muna sila as “substitute†or “casual.†Visit some provinces in the Visayas and Mindanao, that’s a glaring practice”
that doesnt mean thats the norm. ‘glaring practice’? ang hirap sa ganyang observation, parang SWS or Pulse Asia survey – tiny sample lang, representative kaagad ng buong bansa!
pero thats enough to confirm the emotional decision to migrate, kaya okay lang
Bert on Fri, 8th Feb 2008 2:20 am
“that doesnt mean thats the norm. ‘glaring practice’? ang hirap sa ganyang observation, parang SWS or Pulse Asia survey – tiny sample lang, representative kaagad ng buong bansa! — anthony s.
Sorry, anthony, your projection gives me the impression you are part of this gov’t. talaga, but I know I’m wrong again, so please pardon me again. Last na to-its, pare ko, hehehe.
hawaiianguy on Fri, 8th Feb 2008 5:33 am
Anthony:
“im truly disappointed. even though its in written form i can sense its tenor. how could you describe me as such? insinuating that im matapobre?”
Sorry to contradict you, I never insinuated that you are – far from it. Pls. re-read my post and others previous to it. I respect you and hold you in high ground, believe me.
As to your being rich, you said so to Tess, didn’t you?
“tiny sample lang?”
Tiny sample ba ang millions of people living in those places? It’s not yet a norm by national standard, but it is a very significant part of it. Just one important region, read what’s happening to DepEd ARMM (5 provinces in Mindanao). Do you know how many thousand teachers work there, who complain about this glaring practice? And you call that TINY?
“why? what did i sat [say] against OFWs/migrants that made you write that way?”
“my point has always been one need not leave the country, either as an OFW or as an immigrant, to reach a level of economic well-being… i want to change the propensity of the Pinoy to believe that the grass is always greener outside the country..â€
Well, that’s my reading – whether you like it or not. Devils and Bert may have noticed that, too. Since you started writing about OFW/migrants, I sense your hostility to this category of pinoys. As if they lack Filipino-ness for mindlessly “packing their bags,” leaving their country (“atat na atat mag migrate”) instead of staking it out like what you are doing.
Why can’t you admit difference? Where you see green grass at home, they may find brown grass. Where you create or discover lots of opportunities, they couldn’t or see scarcity and hardships. No, you can’t change that propensity, now imbedded in the diaspora. But the govt could, because it would take massive resources to reverse or reduce it after setting that diaspora in motion.
hawaiianguy on Fri, 8th Feb 2008 5:37 am
Anthony,
“what if i tell you i was born to a family belonging to that bottom 30%? (i am)”
Welcome to the club! Tell you frankly, I belong to the bottom 10%. My parents were poor, landless peasants. They had to migrate from north to south in RP to change their lot, they failed. But I somehow rose above them, got an education on my own effort, unfortunately by migrating.
“mas mayaman ka pa sa amin! you’re in the US, earning precious dollars, x 40! your net worth is a lot bigger than mine! compared to you, im in the bottom 30% of the ’social pyramid’”
Come on, my friend! I don’t even have net worth here. I own no property except my clothes, books, and kitchen utensils. I rent my apartment, take the bus. Well, if you multiply my measly earnings by 40, I beat an ordinary worker in RP by a few fold (probably you still earn much more than I do, being a successful entrepreneur).
But look, I also spend dollars here, not pesos.
inodoro ni emilie on Fri, 8th Feb 2008 6:30 am
the bottomline anthony, life is not fair. opportunities are not distributed evenly. i can’t blame ofws for leaving the country in search of livelihood, for that is basic to life and living. what i don’t buy is leaving the country in desperation, because for me, the solution is to stay and let those crappy recycled leaders do the departing instead. systemic as the problems may be, we derive much of the source of complications from these critters–no national vision, all pocket mission.
DevilsAdvc8 on Fri, 8th Feb 2008 12:05 pm
my father stayed, became an entrepreneur, closed his business during this admin, and is now an employee again, past the age of retirement.
so what did he have to show for his hard work beyond what he gave us, his children?
my mother left, nannied other children and cleaned other’s houses abroad, and is now looking at the prospect of retiring in relative comfort.
my father worked for 40 years here in the phils, 20 as his own boss. my mother only worked 10 years in the US, 6 years if you discount her 4 yrs as a TNT.
sa inyo magagaling sa business, sa tingin nyo, who had a better ROI?
evaluate nyo ulit. stay here kung san napakaliit ng tsansa maging katulad ni scalia, o go abroad where the chances of succeeding is greater.
why so? because abroad, talent is all you need. that and hard work.
anthony scalia on Sat, 9th Feb 2008 1:04 am
“why so? because abroad, talent is all you need. that and hard work”
dito din! napakaraming success stories dito, mga di na nag-migrate!
another attempt to justify the earlier decision to migrate
anthony scalia on Sat, 9th Feb 2008 1:28 am
hawaiianguy,
“Sorry to contradict you, I never insinuated that you are – far from it. Pls. re-read my post and others previous to it. I respect you and hold you in high ground, believe me.”
sorry to contradict you, my friend! your generous use of the words “envy me? for being in the top 10%? social pyramid? lucky? perspective on people who migrate/become OFWs? not knowing how to live like the bottom 30%?’ say otherwise!
pero since authorial intent was disclosed, cge, even though the intent was a lot different from the resulting expression, i’ll presume good faith
“As to your being rich, you said so to Tess, didn’t you?”
i said ‘at best upper middle’
“Tiny sample ba ang millions of people living in those places? It’s not yet a norm by national standard, but it is a very significant part of it. Just one important region, read what’s happening to DepEd ARMM (5 provinces in Mindanao). Do you know how many thousand teachers work there, who complain about this glaring practice? And you call that TINY?”
let me re-post that again –
the ‘tiny’ modifies the SWS/Pulse Asia survey, taking issue with their tendency to project a sample as representative of the majority.
i wasn’t calling your sample ‘tiny’. im taking issue again with your tendency to assume that your sample is the norm. for all i know, you’re just looking for something to confirm your suspicions.
“Well, that’s my reading – whether you like it or not.”
well i don’t like it one bit!!!
your reading? my goodness! you don’t just arrive at a ‘reading’ from out of the blue! you read a text first! then you arrive at a ‘reading’!
i dare you to re-post all my comments that ‘confirm’ your ‘reading’!
“Since you started writing about OFW/migrants, I sense your hostility to this category of pinoys. As if they lack Filipino-ness for mindlessly “packing their bags,†leaving their country (â€atat na atat mag migrateâ€) instead of staking it out like what you are doing”
then focus the discussion on the alleged ‘lack of filipino-ness’ of migrants! and no longer stray into unnecessary discussions of class!
“Why can’t you admit difference?”
another attempt to justify the migration decision
i already admitted several differences – x 40, Silicon Valley, Wall Street. saka just the thought of being a citizen of the US of A, of residing there! Access to Hollywood, live NBA games, scholarships to Ivy League schools, the White House, etc.
“Where you see green grass at home, they may find brown grass. Where you create or discover lots of opportunities, they couldn’t or see scarcity and hardships. No, you can’t change that propensity, now imbedded in the diaspora. But the govt could, because it would take massive resources to reverse or reduce it after setting that diaspora in motion.”
same old problem of Pinoys – a default mode to migrate, blaming government for omissions, further confirming the default mode. thats the underlying reason for the propensity! kaya nga ‘atat na atat’ eh, predisposed na to migrate. they just don’t want to consider the big possibility that grass is ‘browner’ in the US and greener here!
anthony scalia on Sat, 9th Feb 2008 1:33 am
Bert,
“Sorry, anthony, your projection gives me the impression you are part of this gov’t. talaga, but I know I’m wrong again, so please pardon me again. Last na to-its, pare ko, hehehe.”
ang layo at napakasablay naman ng observation mo. pinag-uusapan ang propensity to migrate ng Pinoy, tapos tatawagin mo akong im part of this government!
oh yes, you are very wrong! pero kung ang plunderer nga napa-pardon, yun pa kayang obviously mistaken lang?
anthony scalia on Sat, 9th Feb 2008 1:36 am
inidoro ni emilie
“the bottomline anthony, life is not fair. opportunities are not distributed evenly. i can’t blame ofws for leaving the country in search of livelihood, for that is basic to life and living. what i don’t buy is leaving the country in desperation, because for me, the solution is to stay and let those crappy recycled leaders do the departing instead. systemic as the problems may be, we derive much of the source of complications from these critters–no national vision, all pocket mission”
agreed. but i feel for those who leave and find out that life also isn’t fair in first world countries!
anthony scalia on Sat, 9th Feb 2008 2:13 am
DevilsAdvc8,
“my family live with our heads above water too, if that’s what you mean. if you’re just one of many who doesn’t need to go abroad to succeed, then congratulations. but that still doesn’t take away the fact, that much more than your “many,†majority of pinoys don’t feel that way. bec if what you say is true, then we won’t have the millions leaving now, will we? so your “one of many†is actually a minority.”
you want to know why? its because of the same old same old – colonial mentality. the predisposition to migrate. deciding purely by emotions then confirming the decision using reason. the erroneous belief that no amount of a level of success can be achieved here.
in short, a good many of the ‘millions’ who are leaving now simply did not make an attempt at the ‘good life’ here
“nakapagtataka, kaming mga pinagkaitan ng Poong Maykapal, di makamit yang equality tinatamasa nyong mga biniyayaan ng Dakilang Lumikha. naknamputsa, baka magkaiba dyos natin!”
posible nga yun. dahil hindi ‘pinagkakaitan’ ng ‘Poong Maykapal’ ang sinumang mag-work hard
“mali mang sabihin, at masama mang pakinggan, pero yan pa rin ang katotohanan. iyan ang NORM. ang meritocracy ang exception. maglibot ka sa lahat ng opisina, pribado man at publiko at kausapin mo ang mga empleyado, o mas mabuti pa, mga HR personnel ang tanungin mo, sila ang makapag papatunay sayo nito”
mali ka dyan. para namang may datos ka galing sa lahat ng HR personnel.
“kayong mga nagtitiis? akala ko ba you’re living a “relatively comfortable life?†ba’t bigla kang nagtiis? okay, uumunlad rin.”
iho, i was not born into a ‘relatively comfortable life’! nagtiis ako dito, di nag-migrate, did my part, at sa awa ng Diyos, kaya naabot ang “relatively comfortable lifeâ€
“pero di mo pa rin maipagkakaila, minority kayo.”
dyan ka mabibigla – maling mali ka. hindi kami minority
“at karamihan (ok, di ko nilalahat) umuunlad sa pangungurakot.”
mali. hindi ‘karamihan’, marami. magkaiba yun.
“meron sigurong mga katulad mo, kumikita sa maayos na paaran, pero majority pa rin sa minority nyong grupo, ay umasenso sa korapsyon.pero agree ako, marami talagang magagaling dito. yung nga lang, karamihan nabubulok at di nabibigyan ng tsansang maipakita ang tunay nilang galing. nauungusan kasi ng magugulang. papano, magugulang rin ang namumuno ng bansa”
ah no, maling observation yan. baka di mo namamalayan, you’re just giving a rational justification for your decision to migrate
“buti pa kayo. kumusta naman kaya yung ibang di kasing “unlad†mo?”
di ko alam. pero may nagsasabi nga na di batayan ang pagkakaroon ng napakaraming salapi para magkaroon ng ‘peace of mind’
“may laban talaga – yung mayayaman at may koneksyon. pumunta ka nga sa ibaba at nang malaman mo ang kalakaran. magpaka pobre ka, makisalamuha ka sa masa, better yet, mag volunteer ka sa PAO, baka matauhan ka na ang hustisyang tini-take for granted mo, di makamit-kamit ng iba. at oo, patotohanan yan ni bencard, na sa ‘tate, walang mayaman at mahirap sa mata ng batas (at least most of the time)”
tsk tsk tsk. a very hasty generalization. di ko sinasabing wala yan, pero di yan at a level na gusto mong paniwalaan. dahil naghahanap ka pa ng justification to confirm the migration decision
teka matanong nga kita – bakit, naging biktima ka na ba ng nilutong kaso? mukhang hindi, dahil if you were, you would have mentioned it right away
“huh? perceived? di lang perceived, proven to be true.”
thereby verifying my observation – Pinoys are after the big pensions given in the US!
“pero as i said, kahit wala yan, dun lang sa posibilidad ng katuparan ng mga pangarap – yun lang, mag aabroad na ako”
noted
“kaya pala ang sangkatutak nating mga pulitiko, andito kasi may malasakit sila sa bayan. now i get it”
another justification to confirm the decision to migrate. as if walang kasing tulad na pulitiko dyan sa tate
“hello? kaya mayaman ang US at Canada ngayon dahil yung mga pinagsakripisyohan ng mga naunang henerasyon ay hindi winaldas ng gobyerno nila. nagsakripisyo rin ang nauna nating henerasyon, winaldas lang nga ng mga nagdaang administrasyon”
hello? did you get the import of what you said? are you saying na maron nang henerasyon na mga Pilipino na nagsakripisyo? na nagdulot sa kaunlaran, na winaldas lang ng mga nagdaang administrasyon? sigurado ka, meron na ba?
yung mga nakalipas na henerasyon, ginamit ang English skills to migrate, imbes na gamitin para sa ikauunlad ng bayan!
“mababaw ba? so 89.999 million lang ang nakakaranas nyan. swerte mo naman at pinagpala ka talaga”
tsk tsk tsk tsk. wala kang basehan in saying na 89.999 million lang ang nakakaranas nyan! a very hasty generalization!
another confirmation of the decision to migrate.
oo pinagpala ako, pero ginawa ko rin ang part ko! hindi ako swerte!
“wag kang mag-alala. susubukan ko yan”
noted
“mas sorry ako sayo, pero mas maraming DEAD examples para di lang i-rebut, kundi patalsikin sa kalawakan ang rebuttal mo”
oh talaga? lets hear them!!
“nagbibigay ako ng concrete example. at di ko man idamay, ganyan din ang sitwasyon ng nakakararaming pinoy.”
again, wala kang hard data to say that! a very hasty generalization! and your example is not the norm!
“sinasabi ko nga, who you? at the upper 10% of the population?”
kung ako man ay nasa upper 10%, yun ay dahil sa good hard work, belief in the grace of God, and belief in opportunities in the Philippines. tandaan mo – pinaghirapan ko yan
“pakilala mo ko ha. tapos pakilala rin kita sa kilala kong umasenso sa kabaligtarang paraan. pero turo ko lang sayo ha. di ko kasi sila personally kakilala. paramihan tayo.”
talaga? cge paramihan tayo ha? promise mo na kapag marami akong naituro, babalik ka na dito for good ha?
eh ano ngayon kung merong umaasenso sa maling paraan? dapat bang gayahin? hindi nila nane-negate ang katotohanang may ummaasenso din sa marangal na paraan!
“naghahanap? di ko na kailanganga hanapin. it’s staring me right in the face!”
kaya nga napadali ang pag-migrate mo! imemdiately you got the confirmation!
“rational justification? tanga lang ang magdedesisyon ng walang rational justification”
asus! mabibigla ka – karamihan ng nagmimigrate, purely emotional decision lang ang basehan. the rational bases come later, to justify the decision made, to show na the decision to migrate was not wrong
“i weighed my pros and cons, and i made my decision. nauna ang rationalizing, bago pumasok ang desire”
sabi mo eh
“sige, gudlak sa pagretiro mo dito into a “comfortable life.â€
talaga!
Bert on Sat, 9th Feb 2008 3:38 am
“ang layo at napakasablay naman ng observation mo. pinag-uusapan ang propensity to migrate ng Pinoy, tapos tatawagin mo akong im part of this government!–anthony s.
That’s because, anthony, you also mentioned SWS and Pulse Asia surveys, and their suveys says GMA is most corrupt, and I suppose you don’t believe those surveys, am I wrong again?
tess on Sat, 9th Feb 2008 7:53 am
“They say he’s a Chinese from the province. Bagay sa iyo ideport ka. Magulo ka dito (You should be deported because you’re troublesome),” Apostol said. (Inquirer)
- when i first read this statement, i found it childish. but if you read again, it’s a racial slur.
tess on Sat, 9th Feb 2008 7:59 am
ay, maling thread..
anthony scalia on Sat, 9th Feb 2008 5:07 pm
Bert,
what made you think i was referring to surveys on perceptions of corruption?! aber? bakit, ang surveys lang ba ng SWS and Pulse Asia ay tungkol kay gloria lang?
did i ever single out a particular survey of gloria’s corruption and declared that the perception isnt normative?
******sound of buzzer****** wrong again
teka teka nakakahalata na ako ah? you got me there my friend!
DevilsAdvc8 on Mon, 11th Feb 2008 12:17 am
scalia, what makes you so sure i decided first and then looked for justifications later? can you look into my soul?
anyway something related manolo wrote in a previous post
anthony scalia on Mon, 11th Feb 2008 3:26 pm
DevilsAdvc8,
the default mode of Pinoys – migrate to a first world country
look, theres nothing wrong with deciding on emotions, then looking for justifications later per se. thats human nature.
it seems that in this blog, when it comes to the discussion of migrating to a first world country, i am playing the role of your handle
tess on Tue, 12th Feb 2008 2:19 pm
De Venecia said he would not testify against Arroyo, contrary to what he said in his valedictory address at the House on Feb. 4 that he would tell all he knows about irregularities involving the First Family, including attempts to manipulate the results of the 2004 presidential elections.
Malacanang said over the weekend that there were backdoor talks to reconcile De Venecia and Arroyo. (GMANews.net)
- What else is new? Once a trapo, always a trapo!
Kabayan on Tue, 12th Feb 2008 2:54 pm
tess said
“…Malacanang said over the weekend that there were backdoor talks to reconcile De Venecia and Arroyo. (GMANews.net)…”
—
As predicted … just like clockwork, I only wondered why Malacanang took too long.
The question is if JDV would compromise again and let himself be hoodwinked once more because of perks, priviledge, money and promises. I’m not betting heavy on JDV to change his habits of … compromise, compromise, compromise, until there’s no principle left.
Pure principles like clean water if mixed with dark unscrupulous ways like charcoal dust becomes black mud.
Kabayan on Tue, 12th Feb 2008 5:48 pm
Mukahang itim na putik pinili ni JDV.
grd on Sun, 17th Feb 2008 1:13 am
test