San Luis, the new Marcoleta?

October 6, 2007 by mlq3
Filed under Daily Dose

Comments

328 Comments on "San Luis, the new Marcoleta?"

elac on Sat, 6th Oct 2007 1:49 am

I see. What a coincidence! Ruel Pulido files an impeachment complaint alleging GMA neglected to act on Neri’s statement and here comes GMA saying the same thing in India.

That is too much of a coincidence! If Egay San Luis is the new Marcoleta, is it remote to infer that Ruel Pulido is the new Oliver Lozano?

mlq3 on Sat, 6th Oct 2007 1:56 am

Coincidences are wonderful! Imagine all those impromptu fellowship meetings at Wack-Wack. Beating the odds of so many protagonists bumping into each other surely produces some kind of fraternal bond. Like a kind of alphabet soup of destiny.

bogchimash on Sat, 6th Oct 2007 2:14 am

Naku po. The Villafuerte gang is trying to take away the De Venecia trump card, the impeachment threat. This internal battle could ultimately result in weakening GMA. Not that I’m complaining.

ferrum mann on Sat, 6th Oct 2007 3:18 am

The trump card was not taken away but dealt face-up on the table. It is now JDV’s call, whether he plays it by raising the ante, or passing the initiative, or just fold up.

If JDV is confident he has the numbers, he should play this hand and call Kampi’s bluff. Winner takes all.

bogchimash on Sat, 6th Oct 2007 3:22 am

Ferrum,

Sugarol ka ha. Why do you know the rules in poker? hehehe

BrianB on Sat, 6th Oct 2007 5:56 am

“If JDV is confident he has the numbers, he should play this hand and call Kampiâ€™s bluff. Winner takes all.”

ferrum mann,

High cards, especially aces have been dealt three times. No more high cards.

professional dilettante on Sat, 6th Oct 2007 6:59 am

Ah, Kampi didn’t think this one through.

A pre-emptive filing of an impeachment complaint, seen that before, no?

The impeachment complaint can be amended if the committee in charge of it decides that it needs clarification or consolidation with another complaint.

A tactical alliance by Lakas, Erap loyalists, the Left and the party lists would be more than enough to get an impeachment complaint with some teeth up to the Senate.

A Senate which is anti-admin… Oh duh, some bright boy really didn’t think this one through.

“Those who the gods would destroy, they first make repetitive….”

nash on Sat, 6th Oct 2007 7:15 am

GMA’s such a class act.

An official tells her of a bribe attempt by another appointed official and all she can say is ‘ignore it’….She should have asked for the resignation of the briber….

Now, isn’t this worthy of a petition/signature campaign? Where are those 80,000 brave signatories? GMA’s omission is surely more offensive.

We must tell scriptwriters to incorporate this in new material.

Arbet on Sat, 6th Oct 2007 7:39 am

Pulido is the new Lozano? Has he turned to the dark side, too?

vic on Sat, 6th Oct 2007 8:58 am

“Pulido is the new Lozano? Has he turned to the dark side, too?” Arbet..

Possible as long as the “price is right”..

GPS on Sat, 6th Oct 2007 9:44 am

“The impeachment complaint can be amended if the committee in charge of it decides that it needs clarification or consolidation with another complaint.” -professional dilettante

I agree with you.This will be an exciting halloween.

GPS on Sat, 6th Oct 2007 9:48 am

Here we go again. Spoofs and Spooks in Congress.

TDC on Sat, 6th Oct 2007 10:31 am

What is happening to Pulido.He used to act pro bono for the Magdalo soldiers.Ay naku!

TDC on Sat, 6th Oct 2007 10:37 am

“GMAâ€™s such a class act.

An official tells her of a bribe attempt by another appointed official and all she can say is â€˜ignore itâ€™â€¦.She should have asked for the resignation of the briberâ€¦.Nash”

Possible scenario after Neri told her:

Gloria Pidal calls somebody “Hello Daddy Chair,ikaw naman bakit mo pa binigyan ng offer daw si Romy? Tayo tayo na lang ni Mike!”

Francis on Sat, 6th Oct 2007 10:47 am

Dear Bloggers,

04th October 2007

Will anyone kindly please verify or assist me on this matter.

I have received a text message from a certain Atty. Mariano M. Chavez of the PGMA Foundation whose cell number is 09286917450 claiming that my mobile number has been randomly selected. I have apparently won 1 million pesos from the foundation.

Below is the text message.

“Congratulations! Your cell # had won 1M pesos during the anniversary of the PGMA foundation raffle draw. DTI permit # 2578 Series 2007 Please Contact Atty Mariano M. Chavez at 09286917450 for details and on how to claim it. Thank you.”

I wonder if this got anything to do with my criticism of the illegitimate regime of Mrs. Arroyo. Not to mention the evil the religion it represents.

Well, my paintings are for sale but not my vote.

If this text message is true, will any representative from Philippine General Hospital claim this in my behalf as my donation to your institution or even to the victims of political killings.

Thank you.

Francis Tanseco
http://www.francistanseco.com
09286746052
P.S. Should I fear for my life now?

——————————————————————————–
me:
I wonder why none of the blogs I posted in http://www.inquirer.net has appeared in any blogsboard they have. Ah I realised that the Inquirer is a mouthpiece of the illegitimate President Arroyo. No wonder, well count me out of your circulation and I shall spread the word. So this is Freedom of the press â€œinquirerâ€ style eh? To all my readers/followers/friends itâ€™s time to boycott those that suppresses freedom of speech.

DevilsAdvc8 on Sat, 6th Oct 2007 11:34 am

much like in poker, the player who’s first to act has all the initiatives. the first to bet usually wins the pot. while the player with the strongest hand isn’t more likely to win. the player who is more unreadable, more braver, and knows when to strike or not are the players who usually win.

is that JDV? lol.

mlq3 on Sat, 6th Oct 2007 11:59 am

i understand polido was dismissed by the magdalo as counsel.

Harry on Sat, 6th Oct 2007 12:01 pm

“Gloria Pidal calls somebody â€œHello Daddy Chair,ikaw naman bakit mo pa binigyan ng offer daw si Romy? Tayo tayo na lang ni Mike!â€” -tdc

back to your grumbling and backbiting hour, ei?

TDC on Sat, 6th Oct 2007 12:04 pm

back to your grumbling and backbiting hour, ei?harry

harry:my bs switch just went off!

TDC on Sat, 6th Oct 2007 12:07 pm

“An opposition congressman has warned that the impeachment complaint filed Friday night by a lawyer against President Gloria Macapagal Arroyo could be “a pre-emptive impeachment move to insulate (Arroyo) from a real hostile impeachment.” The complaint supposedly signals “an internecine war” among apparent factions in the pro-Arroyo coalition.”

Let the games begin!

Harry on Sat, 6th Oct 2007 12:08 pm

tdc:

it’s pretty obvious that you’re very good at kvetching, why are you clean yourself, huh?

manuelbuencamino on Sat, 6th Oct 2007 12:10 pm

The complaint is a trap. It is flawed and incomplete, in the Oliver Lozano tradition.

First, it will distract from the Senate hearings where the real story is still being ferreted out.

Corollary to this, Malacanan is hoping that a battle over amending the rules on impeachment will turn into a circus of lawyers. The public will be distracted.

Second, if the Batasan sends the impeachment complaint, with all its flaws, to the Senate, then it will be very easy for senators to acquit GMA by going legalistic. This tactic will provide perfect cover for questionable senators like Pangilinan, Escudero, Villar, and Cayetano to join Joker, Johnny, Miriam, Dick, Bong, Lito and Migs. So impeached by the House but acquitted by the Senate. And shit comes out smelling like roses.

JDV should sit on the impeachment complaint. Keep the pressure on the Senate to finish its investigation while at the same time building a solid case against GMA.

Then and only then should he embark on adopting changes on the rules on impeachment to allow for amending charges so he can send up an impeachment complaint that only the most shameless senators can vote against.

TDC on Sat, 6th Oct 2007 12:17 pm

Harry:severe attention deficit disorder! but I won’t feed this troll.my bs switch went off! have a nice weekend ,baby!

TDC on Sat, 6th Oct 2007 12:22 pm

“Coincidences are wonderful! Imagine all those impromptu fellowship meetings at Wack-Wack. Beating the odds of so many protagonists bumping into each other surely produces some kind of fraternal bond. Like a kind of alphabet soup of destiny.MLQ3″

MLQ3:there are no coincidences in this world.The Wack Wack group members are “like molecules attracted to each other…for the same BIG deal>”

karah on Sat, 6th Oct 2007 12:26 pm

The story is getting more interesting by the day. Out of nowhere, this Roberto Pulido filed an “impeachment complaint” against GMA. What’s more fishy is that a pro-Administration Congressman endorsed it. As far as I know, this Pulido guy was the legal counsel of the Magdalo Group. Is this a case of “jumped to the other fence?” The question is, does anybody in here know the link between Pulido and Malacanang? (if indeed the speculations are true and valid).

It’s a known fact that’s there’s infighting within the “Administration Coalation.” Lakas being the baby of JDV and Kampi being the party that GMA founded. You know these guys like Villafuerte and Solis, they are those Congressman that already have blisters and when they wanna push for something, they will do it come what may. I am not that sure what’s the participation of Cong. Garcia on this.

At this point in time, GMA can’t afford in-fighting in her “Administration Coalition.” But then again, there would always be the side of “TIT-for-TAT” down the line. When the Plenary votings comes, granting that the Administration would still be intact in the comings days, is another “going thru the motions” event. I would go on to say with reference to the people in Congress, “everybody has a price.” It might not be money but there are other strategem to emloy – blackmail, threats, what have you.

This time, I would assert that GMA (whether she was involved or not) should have announced an investigation (albeit a scripted one) on an “alleged bribery” by a High Ranking Gov’t Official & one of her Cabinet Members. That act would have divorced herself from any future controversy (which was eventually, the ZTE-NBN deal).

In the instance, GMA wasn’t thinking about being smart, I don’t know what other things she was thinking at that time. GMA should have employed then NSA Sec. Almonte –

Harry on Sat, 6th Oct 2007 12:33 pm

“Harry:severe attention deficit disorder! but I wonâ€™t feed this troll.my bs switch went off! have a nice weekend ,baby!” -tdc

add is better than a person who’s experiencing this so-called kvetching syndrome. guess, your the master in hit and run tactics, old man! i bet you can’t even go near gma that’s why your grumbling and backbiting in here.

karah on Sat, 6th Oct 2007 12:56 pm

Let’s dissect a very interesting topic that cropped up during the course of “discussions” in here: What is ADD? What is Kvetching Syndrome?

ADD: Attention Deficit Disorder (aka ADHD: Attention Deficit/Hyperactivity Disorder) = A disorder that usually emerges during childhood. Although there are behavioral patterns in a child with ADD, there are also behavioral patterns in ADULTS. Here are some of them: procrastination, difficulty getting work done, and inattentiveness. Down the line, its should DIAGNOSED CLINICALLY whether a person has ADD or not. It’s but common sense that only a Doctor could make a diagnosis if a person has ADD or not. TDC, are you a doctor?

Kvetching Syndrome: Now this is something new, probably a coined term by Harry. KVETCHING is defined as: a CHRONIC WHINING COMPLAINER. There are no information that would have something to say about this “disorder.” I’ll ask the same question to Harry, are you are doctor?

I asked this question to the both of you because I’m a “frustrated doctor” as well as a “frustrated lawyer” but I ended up a graduate of “Cosmetology.”

TDC on Sat, 6th Oct 2007 1:06 pm

Karah:sorry.I dont want to feed THAT troll.plus its off topic to what MLQ3 posted

ramrod on Sat, 6th Oct 2007 1:07 pm

karah, you’re as perky as ever. Nice to see those smilies again.

karah on Sat, 6th Oct 2007 1:09 pm

Manuel It’s one thing to assess the SUFFICIENCY in “form & substance” pertaining to the impeachment complaint that was recently lodged. Another thing is that, does the opposition have the numbers? In the last impeachment, the number even dwindled down come Plenary Votation. The “Administration Coalition” still controls the Lower House though some of them might be engaged in some childish skirmish. Another thing is, are these childish fights for real or another case of “scripted infighting?”

What this talk that goes around that says the Senate is BACKING OFF! (hehehe) with the investigations because a certain Businessman flexed his influence on the Senators. I think this allegation came from Sen. Madrigal (not in your list of “questionable senators”).

Would JDV this time really sever his ties with GMA and Malacanang? Does he have the guts? Basing from the personality of JDV, he’s the “Politician par excellence” being the most “accomodating Politician” in the history of Philippine Politics.

karah on Sat, 6th Oct 2007 1:16 pm

TDC Honestly, I also got a little bit irritated with your consecutive personal attacks against GMA. Do I like GMA? In some respects, yes. In some respects, no. But it’s just my opinion. Anyway, that’s done and over with.

I hope that you and Harry won’t bicker no more. The Philippines is as chaotic as ever and it’s not a good sight that even in here, there’s chaos. We are after all, guests in this Blog of MLQ3. As such, we should at least give due respect to the host of the house. Let’s leave my house as the only chaotic place there is It’s fine even if it’s all in shambles since I don’t have visitors all year round anyway.

karah on Sat, 6th Oct 2007 1:18 pm

Ram I’m not only perky, I’m feisty as well. I am a peacemaker not a warmonger so as much as possible, I would want an atmosphere of mutual co-existence even among the commenters in here. But, that’s just me.

ramrod on Sat, 6th Oct 2007 1:19 pm

“What this talk that goes around that says the Senate is BACKING OFF! (hehehe) with the investigations because a certain Businessman flexed his influence on the Senators. I think this allegation came from Sen. Madrigal (not in your list of â€œquestionable senatorsâ€).” – karah

Yes. I’ve read about this just this morning, it says he gave the senators P2Million each. Now why is 2 a common number here 2/200?

I’m dying to see how JDV can “wheel and deal” himself out of this situation, or do you think he knows something we don’t? Is it possible that he knows the “achille’s heel” of GMA’s seemingly invulnerable persona?

Harry on Sat, 6th Oct 2007 1:21 pm

karah:

sorry, i’ll be more composed next time.

harry

karah on Sat, 6th Oct 2007 1:23 pm

Harry Okay. But I hope that “composed” is not a “compost fertilizer.”

ramrod on Sat, 6th Oct 2007 1:25 pm

I agree, to MLQ3, good afternoon sir, may I have the honor of your distinguished abode of wit, humor, and enlightenment?

Mr. Potter, “maayong hapon kanimo.”

tdc, good afternoon, I hope you had a pleasant morning and I look forward to a more pleasant afternoon ahead.

TDC on Sat, 6th Oct 2007 1:26 pm

TDC Honestly, I also got a little bit irritated with your consecutive personal attacks against GMA. Do I like GMA? In some respects, yes. In some respects, no. But itâ€™s just my opinion. Anyway, thatâ€™s done and over with.Karah”

I respect your point of view.I dont bicker with anybody.This is political blog of MLQ3.

Harry on Sat, 6th Oct 2007 1:28 pm

ramrod:

it’s quite hard to unseat gma not unless there’s a popular uprising again to the proportions of edsa 1 or edsa 2. but by a strike of luck, if she resigns or be killed, maybe here would be a transition before 2010.

maayong hapon pod nimo.

harry

TDC on Sat, 6th Oct 2007 1:29 pm

RaMROD:THNKS!The “Save the monks group” now has 349,000 members.Let’s keep the pressure on THE WALL

ramrod on Sat, 6th Oct 2007 1:35 pm

Yes. Compost fertilizer could be very unpleasant, most especially because in the process of decomposition it emits a very disagreeable aroma indicative of the presence of a combustible gas named methane.

TDC and Harry, I have nothing against the vigorous exchange of opinions, all I ask is that we exercise civility in speech and decorum among each other at least. Let the focus of our misplaced agression be politicians, businessmen, and people outside of our own circle as we engage in our sinfully pleasurable leisure acitivity – blogging…

TDC on Sat, 6th Oct 2007 1:41 pm

amen

ramrod on Sat, 6th Oct 2007 1:42 pm

tdc, eversince you invited me to this “save the monks movement” I have never known to pray so hard (except when I’m too far off from my sales targets).
I check their website as often as I can right now, which is every 30 mins.
I still pray that Burma will pull off an EDSA 1 or a variant, especially the part where the soldiers put down their guns and embrace the people (where hopefully pretty young women are up front or else contend with a toothless monk)…

karah on Sat, 6th Oct 2007 1:44 pm

TDC Political blog, yes. A personal attacks site, no. Let me give a scenario, what if I attack you personally (of which it’s my specialty) when you’re not around, your ears might smoke in anger. But then again, I confront people, I don’t talk behind their backs. Just consider what I’ve said since I’m sure you understand very well what I mean.

Harry on Sat, 6th Oct 2007 1:44 pm

ramrod:

i hear you.

harry

karah on Sat, 6th Oct 2007 1:48 pm

Be right back. I smell some overcooked food – my Menu for today is Sauteed Blog w/ Vegetables

TDC on Sat, 6th Oct 2007 1:52 pm

Ramrod:the recent pictures coming out of Burma really shocked me in their sheer brutality on the helpless monks.I understand that the monks are now joining underground movements.

ramrod on Sat, 6th Oct 2007 1:58 pm

“itâ€™s quite hard to unseat gma not unless thereâ€™s a popular uprising again to the proportions of edsa 1 or edsa 2. but by a strike of luck, if she resigns or be killed, maybe here would be a transition before 2010.”-harry

I agree, but I am not advocating another EDSA or any unconstitutional way of unseating the current administration as it will do more harm than good. If GMA is as good as she and others believe she is she will do the right thing in her own time or at least until 2110. Meantime, the senators, the congressmen, the supreme court, the ombudsman, the media, the citizens and the league of extraordinary gentlemen (and ladies) that we call MLQ3’s blog, will continue to be vigilant in our pursuit of truth, liberty, and prosperity.

ramrod on Sat, 6th Oct 2007 2:00 pm

oops, I meant 2010.

Harry on Sat, 6th Oct 2007 2:07 pm

ramrod:

will gma do the supreme sacrifice? quite a tricky question after all the controversies and impeachment complaints. she’s on a good streak and if he’s a gambler, you know that she won’t quit.

rule of law? sure. but when is when. only time can tell.

harry

karah on Sat, 6th Oct 2007 2:13 pm

Ram Something UNCONSTITUTIONAL might all the more damage the Democratic Institutions that we have. Something EXTRACONSTITUTIONAL might be send a message of instability and “legalizing” what in the first place might be questionable political actions.

By the looks of it, GMA would like to stay until 2010 not unless there would be very compelling reasons for her to step down. She has withered all sorts of attacks and came out victorious, so to speak.

Yes, vigilance is something each citizen should be involved in. Aside from vigilance is being good citizens – not to add to all the woes the Philippines have. I despise the mentality of “Since every does it, why can’t i?” Sick.

ramrod on Sat, 6th Oct 2007 2:20 pm

Excuse me, esteemed gentlemen (and lady) as I have to attend to another favorite diversion – shooting, and pretend that the target is a Junta soldier. I will be at the armscor shooting range in mkati cinema square if anyone would care to join me.
Till we meet again…tdc, harry, karah

MAV on Sat, 6th Oct 2007 2:26 pm

Do you guys want Noli de Castro as president if there is another people power?I don’t!

karah on Sat, 6th Oct 2007 2:36 pm

MAV No but do we have a choice if GMA is outsted? (I mean if we follow the Constitution in terms of succession).

frombelow on Sat, 6th Oct 2007 2:41 pm

MAV

I dont like Noli. But I DONT LIKE GMA MORE.

frombelow on Sat, 6th Oct 2007 2:42 pm

Better an uncertain … than a certain one.

frombelow on Sat, 6th Oct 2007 2:44 pm

When i say certain, i am not referring to Noli.

karah on Sat, 6th Oct 2007 2:47 pm

Frombelow By the looks of it, it’s quite a Herculean task to unseat GMA – may it be constitutional, extraconstitutional, even some unconstitutional (remember the mob on EDSA 3 as what the opposition call it)? Would Noli run for the Presidency on 2010?

cvj on Sat, 6th Oct 2007 2:47 pm

If Noli takes over if and when GMA is ousted, all the arguments for people remaining vigilant still applies. That’s a given. In fact, that’s always a given no matter who occupies the Presidency. If back in 2005, people still had the benefit of the doubt that GMA could make up for her illegitimacy with good governance, that benefit of the doubt can no longer be given today in light of all the information that has been made public.

karah on Sat, 6th Oct 2007 2:47 pm

Noli is quite acceptable to the Masa but not quite to the middle and upper classes (at least most of them).

karah on Sat, 6th Oct 2007 3:06 pm

MLQ3: Knowing about your knowledge with regards to the inners workings in Government from an insider’s and an outsider’s view, I’d like to post some questions and would like to know what’s your take on things.

(1) Would a regime change before 2010 be more beneficial or more damaging to our Economy, Political Life as a Nation? What are the pros and cons.
(2) In the stint of GMA as President, how do you gauge her? Taking into consideration PERFORMANCE vis a vis the SCANDALS that beset her Administration?
(3) Since GMA still has 3 years, given the opportunity to have GMA’s ears – what would be 5 things that you’ll say to her in terms of REFORMS and CHANGES in her style of Governance?
(4) Who among the Cabinet Members do you think are the PERFORMING ONES and the NON-PERFORMING ONES (I mean in terms of output, reforms, streamlining of their respective line agencies, transparency, etc)?
(5) Who would be the best candidate come 2010 Elections (whether there will be or where won’t be). Although I know the Cha-Cha Baby of JDV is already farfetched, we might not know. 3 Years is a lot of time and anything can happen.

Thanks in advance. Will be very interested on your viewpoint on these matters.

cheryl daytec on Sat, 6th Oct 2007 3:25 pm

Gloria Arroyo is really an expert on how to stay in power. There is nothing in Machiavelli’s book that she has not mastered. And she could teach Machiavelli a lot!

I also suspect that this never-heard Rep San Luis is another Oliver Lozano. And why do we, the Filipino nation, seem helpless?

Is not the time ripe for a revolution? We can ony take so much evil, iniquity, injustice and corruption.

karah on Sat, 6th Oct 2007 3:39 pm

Cheryl When people think of Niccolo Machiavelli, they would readily recall the words “the ends justify the means.” It’s practically a teleological view – any action (may it be evil) is JUSTIFIED if the end is a good purpose. However, Machiavelli himself put some restrictions to this treatise of his. Even Machiavelli asserted that “POWER” for it’s own sake is not acceptable. In a sense, GMA’s actions and actuations really surpassed even the “restrictions that” Machiavelli gave in THE PRINCE.

This Rep. Edgar San Luis doesn’t ring a bell at all. What we know is that he’s from the 4th District of Laguna. Plus the fact he’s a newbie, there’s no information even in the Congress Website about this fella. In the Congress Website though this guys is registered as INDEPENDENT, I don’t know if this is the latest because there were some new reports that says he’s a member of KAMPI (the political party that GMA founded).

Ahhh Revolution. I don’t think it’s in the BLOOD and COLLECTIVE UNCONSCIOUS of Filipinos to kill each other. Look at EDSA 1, EDSA 2. EDSA 3 was a different case because it was a MOB (from paid squatters they say) that went to that rally. Although I also like the idea of the Revolution, who would fight who? Who would join who? Given the diverse cultural ethnography of the Philippines.

mlq3 on Sat, 6th Oct 2007 4:19 pm

karah, my own political preferences are well known but let me go through your questions as an intellectual exercise:

1) Would a regime change before 2010 be more beneficial or more damaging to our Economy, Political Life as a Nation? What are the pros and cons.

I believe the President has done great harm to all our institutions. I am personally convinced she will find every means to stay in power; her minimum political objective would be to find a successor who will protect her, but who can she trust?

Over the next couple of years, she will be apppointing at least 3 new Comelec commissioners, a new civil service commissioner, around 6 justices of the supreme court, a new chief of staff of the afp. therefore, she has the means and motive to institute a far-reaching change in the staffing of the government, which only leaves congress to worry about (and there are ways to handle that).

i do think the public will only accept one means of removing her: impeachment. people power is a theoretical option but it requires credible leaders, and just the right combination of factors that have eluded those who’d otherwise be inclined to support it -the leadership question is as relevant to people power as it is to impeachment. so far, the vp serves as a human veto to either option, and no figure is waiting in the wings with the political/moral standing.

migration abroad serves as the ultimate safety valve, insulating the economy and also, keeping enough people open to the option of ignoring what goes on at home as they can seek a future abroad.

the cons to keeping the president: extending her stay, further eroding public confidence in the political system, not to mention behind-the-scenes reliance on the top brass of the armed forces, etc. the pros to keeping her until 2010: a certain kind of stability, and a growing sense that perhaps politics is not as central as it once was, that means to blunt its worst aspects by means of smaller reforms on the periphery, meaning the provinces, is possible, and that long-term education might lead to the chance of a better crop of bureaucrats and leaders later on.

(2) In the stint of GMA as President, how do you gauge her? Taking into consideration PERFORMANCE vis a vis the SCANDALS that beset her Administration?

She works hard, she studies the issues, she micromanages, she has a clear understanding of where theory ends and practical application begins, she understands every man has his price, she has accepted her unpopularity and genuinely believes she is doing things no one else can do, and that problems can be fixed by a mixture of pragmatic sanctions (the police power, applying the law strategically, keeping up appearances, divide-and-rule and use of the republican playbook). the scandals have not been enough to erode her ability to control the armed forces or the willingness of the middle and upper class to turn a blind eye as she has none of her predecessor’s obvious failings, and there are some areas where things have genuinely improved.

(3) Since GMA still has 3 years, given the opportunity to have GMA’s ears – what would be 5 things that you’ll say to her in terms of REFORMS and CHANGES in her style of Governance?

i don’t think many presidents are open to constructive criticism, you do not become and remain president by taking the advice of critics. she is already the 3rd longest serving president we’ve ever had. by october 2009 the 2nd longest. nothing will change in how she governs, and her idea of governance is not promoting a vision or intangibles, but on quantifiable things: primarily, infrastructure. she believes these have hidden and open costs and well, the question only becomes, will the combination be juggled effectively to prevent anything that permanently offends the armed forces and big business.

(4) Who among the Cabinet Members do you think are the PERFORMING ONES and the ON-PERFORMING ONES (I mean in terms of output, reforms, streamlining of their respective line agencies, transparency, etc)?

the cabinet members i admired or respected are all gone. i do think sec. teves has limits he will not cross and is basically decent. i think her peace adviser means well. the president obviously believes those she has in place have managed to keep things together, but we have to see if the toll time/stress/age has taken on some of her inner circle and her husband, still leaves her with the combination of daring, ruthlesslness, loyalty she once commanded.

(5) Who would be the best candidate come 2010 Elections (whether there will be or where won’t be). Although I know the Cha-Cha Baby of JDV is already farfetched, we might not know. 3 Years is a lot of time and anything can happen.

i don’t think cha-cha is far-fetched. i don’t think focusing on the candidates is entirely appropriate at the present time. i do think this is a time better spent by people exploring what it is, they want, in terms of the “vision thing” the incumbent so sorely lacks, in determining what sort of changes one would like and where our personal preferences coincide with those of others, so that we see, in turn, what sort of constituencies we can build; and finally, the parameters for change that we are prepared to adhere to. i do think that the current frontrunners will most likely be the candidates to consider, but i also think the public temperament would welcome an outsider with a combination of a clean financial record, a recognized work ethic, a demonstrable manegerial/executive ability, and a combination of the common touch and intelligence/sophistication.

karah on Sat, 6th Oct 2007 4:20 pm

Be right back. I’ll just be on Youtube. I’ll just load the video of the Algorithm March and so some exercise since I’m all alone and I’m kind bored. I’m wearing a pumpkin headgear.

karah on Sat, 6th Oct 2007 4:21 pm

Ooopppsss, I’ll read the reply of MLQ3 and respond first. I thought nobody’s active in the Blog.

nash on Sat, 6th Oct 2007 4:48 pm

Personal attacks are a no-no.

Having said that, I have no inhibitions attacking patently corrupt personalities like GMA or Mike Defensor or Abalos. If they weren’t so evil, no one would be attacking them, innit?

And I didn’t know there was a big love fest going on in this chat room(?) between a Harry and a TDC.

MAV on Sat, 6th Oct 2007 4:59 pm

MLQ3:

I think GMA is at the legacy stage of her term.this means that:

a)She will go on “monument building” whether it is in terms of bridges,highways or digital highway.something for people to remember that “Gloria was here…”

b)She will anoint the person who will most likely be the administration candidate on the basis of his willingness to co-opt with her in her remaining years.My bet is Villar.

3)She will NOT completely destroy the MACAPAGAL name for the sake of her father’s good name in history.

4)She will put Mike on exile.This guy has done nothing but harm for her.

5)she will pardon ERAP to establish a precedent.

manuelbuencamino on Sat, 6th Oct 2007 5:17 pm

Karah,

You have the impeachment story wrong. JDV is not behind it. It was filed by Oliver Pulido and endorsed by an ally of GMA. A complaint that’s doomed to failm either in the House or the Senate, is a vaccination, in a manner of speaking.

That’s why I said let the Senate hearings play out before JDV starts to act and adopts the impeachment as his own.

As to Jamby….she may be questionable when it comes to timing, prudence and debate but she can’t be bought once she fixes on to something.

karah on Sat, 6th Oct 2007 5:30 pm

MLQ3 Thanks for a prompt response. Jumping off from your quite lengthy response, here are my two cents regarding the issues at hand.

One of the biggest bane GMA faces up to now is the “issue of legitimacy.” She was caught flat-footed when the “Hello Garci Tapes” emerged in the Media. It’s an undisputed fact that all Presidential Elections is mired with Cheating (small-scale or large-scale). It’s either GMA wasn’t careful and smart enough or she didn’t expect such a tape would come out. Although she tries so hard to “insulate” the LEGITIMACY ISSUE through “economic gains, progress & development”, this issue will linger on even in a post-GMA scenario. I concur in the assertion of yours that “who can she trust?” Relationships build on concessions also has its endings. The best way for her to escape future prosecution would be to stay abroad and live her life comfortably there.

As I’ve said in my previous comments, GMA seems to be on a winning streak in SURMOUNTING all the scandals and controversies that beset her Administration. Now is not the time to quite. Although “quitting while your ahead” might prove fatal for her. Once she does not have the cloak of “immunity accorded” to Presidents, I am sure the opposition would feast on her. (they might succeed or not but they will still feast on her eventually). Wow, 3 Comelec Commissioners, 1 Civil Service Commissioner, and 6 Supreme Court Justices, and a new AFP Chief of Staff would also mean two things (paying political debts or depositing political debts). After all, in the Philippines, he who has the POWER and CONNECTIONS gets ahead like comparing a FERRARI to a JEEPNEY.

I won’t like to think that the people are already tired staging all these RALLIES and EDSAS. The main reason might be that the “silent majority” don’t wanna sleep with the very “people” they help oust in 2001. Are we seeing a “public consent” of LET THE WHEEL OF LAW TAKE ITS COURSE? Being IMPEACHMENT the only possible and acceptable way to “remove GMA.” (Not unless of course she voluntarily steps down which in your own estimation won’t happen). I don’t wanna belittle people but if those calling for people power are the likes of REZ CORTEZ and NINO MUHLACH, you can surmise who would respond to those calls of going to the streets. Noli seems to be so silent when it comes to Politics. He does his own thing, yes, at the same time he seems to silently support GMA (or maybe we just don’t know).

The Remittances of the OFW’s amounting to around 10 Billion Dollars up in a year is not only a big help but one of th backbones of the Philippine Economy staying afloat and in the black. By POEA Statistics, the Philippines deploys 1Million – 1.2Million workers per year. Come to think of it, GMA might just find a friend in OFW’s if she pushes for a SPECILA RATE for OFW’s dollars (ofw remittance money). I know that some of the more vocal OFW groups dislikes GMA but these are a meager number compared to those who are apolitical and devote their time to work and nothing else.

Here are my PROS and CONS (Karah’s version, that is).

PROS

(a) Yes, you said it. An athmosphere of Political Stability that would go with it a certain degree of Economic Stability is in order. Foreign Investors and Economic Players would prefer a continuance of Policies (whether it’s beneficial to its people or not as long as it’s benefial to their business).

(b) Give the chance for GMA to maybe do it right this time (might be an impossibility to some but we cannot predict how people behave and change). Filipinos are forgiving, aren’t we?

CONS

(a) The lingering issue of LEGITIMACY would always be there. The disenfranchisement of the Filipino people to the Government because of all the scandals.

(b) The continuing PLUNDER of the National Treasury. I am not only referring to GMA and her family but to those in power as well (the Cabinet Members, those Appointed to the GOCC’s and GFI, and down the line). I am using the allegation in general because, personally, I don’t have any proof or hard evidence.

I do think that GMA has the goodwill and to quote you: “she works hard, she studies the issues, she micromanages, she has a clear understanding of where theory ends and practical application begins.” GMA should have exiled FG Mike Arroyo and sone Mikey Arroyo after the Elections. There was a time that Mike and Mikey were made to have a long vacation in the USA but I don’t know what happened that they came back. If GMA has Luli as her “secret weapon”, the GMA has “Mike and Mikey as her in-house dynamites” that slowly blows up whatever credibility and integrity she has as a President.

What I see here is a LUKEWARM situation. Those who want her out but does not have the numbers and the right leader to rally them behind VERSUS a State falling into pieces and yet there are some parts that things are being built. It’s like a DEADLOCK or a STALEMATE. People either grumble silently or doesn’t seem to care. The critical mass isn’t there – it’s just not there yet to unseat her.

I am sure GMA listens to someone even among the different factions in here CABINET. I know that GMA trusts some of her lieutenants. I just hope this guy is giving herall the good advice that she needs. Who might this person be? I wonder. But then again, are there more well-meaning people in here Cabinet or more of those who want to cash in until they are replaced. At least, they’ll have hefty sums for their retirement. It’s not anymore a case of “a man’s gotta earn a living”, it’s a case of “i’ll get whatever i can get until I’m booted out.”

I myself would vouch for the credibility and integrity of Sec. Gary Teves. He as done a lot of good during his sting at the Landbank. He turned an almost collapsing bank into the Premiere Government Bank of the Philippines. Although its quite hard to change bad habits but his presence alone in LBP made a lot of people re-think their work ethics. The other Cabinets seems to be the beneficiaries of “withdrawing political debt.” Land Reform/Agriculture/Agrarian Reform is all mired with a lot of INACTION and “SELECTIVE IMPOSITION OF THE LAW.” There are still a lot of Farmer Beneficiaries that up to now have not been awarded what was due to them. There’s also a lot of SMUGGLING of Agricultural Products of all sorts. Some of them are products that’s harmful to the health.

In Energy, the “privatization” never came to be as it was intended by the EPIRA Law. Even Electricity in the Philippines is very expensive compared to other Asian neighbors. A lack of Regulatory Environment for the increase of Petrol-related products is another thing to consider.

The Education Dept. is faced with this USELESS CyberEd Project. What children need are good classrooms, good stock of books and textbooks, good teachers, and good educational environment. They don’t even have the basics and they want to SHORT-CIRCUIT the process by introducing this 26 Billion pesos CyberEd. Yes, this CyberEd is important but there are more important matters to attend to. The DENR doesn’t seem to care in the continuance of ILLEGAL LOGGING in ISABELA and some parts of QUEZON? Even ECC’s can be bought for a price – no questions asked. The DILG, I’ll zero in on the PNP, is always window-dressing the real statistics on crime. Either a police is inept or corrupt except for a FEW GOOD MEN.

The Dept. of Justice should give priority to cases especially those gathering dust. They better RE ORGANIZE and even STREAMLINE the National Prosecution Service. Even the NBI is all about lip service. Based on personal experience, it all boils down to “If I help you, what can I get in return.” Lolz. Even DOLE should have more aggressive presence in countries where there are Filipino OFW’s. I hear of a lot of Filipinos being victims of either ILLEGAL RECRUITERS or even victims or Embassy Personnel in the different Diplomatic Posts – I think greater collaboration should be done by the DFA and DOLE, is this too much to ask?

The DND should look into how the AFP disburses its funds to the soldiers. Take for example, when a soldier has a salary of 15,000 Php and other bonuses of 5,000 Php, do they get this one time? Do they get the full amount of their salary or there are cuts? How does the AFP do its Procurement and Bids and Acquisitions? The DPWH should stop destroying GOOD ROADS then building them again. They should focus in the PROVINCES and build highways, city and town roads. Rehabilitate bridges and other things that concern them. Stop, please stop duping all of us. I’ve been to the countryside so I know very well.

DOTC – the special child this past months. So many bungled projects. Take for example the LTFRB. If you do it legal way, a person who applies for a FRANCHISE (taxi or puj) should only pay at most 5,000Php to 10,000Php but the LTFRB personnel would say that there’s no vacant franchise available anymore. If you give them 50,000Php, you can get a freshly baked FRANCHISE in a days time. Really amazing.

Would JDV still push for this CHA-CHA? By the looks of it, there’s strong OPPOSITION in the Senate. It’s takes two to TANGO, and in this case, “it takes two to CHA-CHA.” Yes, the 2010 Elections is a long way to go but some Senators are already making themselves visible, even playing their ELECTION JINGLES when they visit Marketplaces, oopppsss. Even asking that the NBN is a big PABX system, when. I didn’t think that a former Investment Banker could that be naive or what.

I think I have said more than a mouthful and so I will stop here. Let’s just continue on with the discussions in the succeeding comments and replies. Thanks MLQ3.

bibeth on Sat, 6th Oct 2007 8:21 pm

karah,

When I got your message giving me this link, I couldn’t believe your’e into blogs now.

Since when did you lean how to blog?

bibeth on Sat, 6th Oct 2007 8:30 pm

Those unrelenting barrage of impechment complaints are just a manifestation on just how greedy and power hungry some people can get.

Sure enough there are very controversial issues but IMPEACHMENT is definitely NOT the answer to red the government of corruption, as those who file them always claim to be their motive and driving force.

Let’s just cut the BS and get to the bottomline. Those who wish to remove the president are just out for revenge, and wants to get all the opportunities themselves.

frombelow on Sat, 6th Oct 2007 8:45 pm

bibeth,

you hit the nail on the head. let’s move on.let’s not spoil the happy days coming again.

frombelow on Sat, 6th Oct 2007 8:47 pm

bibeth,
inggit lang sila. wala kasi sila. di sila kasi nabebenefit ng stock market boom and other economic gains ni Presidente GMA. the best siya talaga, noh.

bibeth on Sat, 6th Oct 2007 8:48 pm

frombelow,

They just can’t wait for their turn. They want it bad, and they want it now.

frombelow on Sat, 6th Oct 2007 8:49 pm

Galing talaga yata ni GMA noh.Lets toast for the happy days ahead, noh.

frombelow on Sat, 6th Oct 2007 8:51 pm

bibeth,

so true. they have to wait for their turn noh. dont they worry, marami pang matitira noh. di namin kayang ubusin yun noh.

ramrod on Sat, 6th Oct 2007 8:56 pm

Any suggestions on the next wave of leaders we might want to support? Do we any “good guys” at least?

bibeth on Sat, 6th Oct 2007 9:02 pm

Karah,

Just had a confession, and made a promise not to make any more of those “unsavory’ remarks.

Fortunately, confession is unlimited. There’s always tomorrow.

Karah, why do you have to always drag me into sticky situations?

ramrod on Sat, 6th Oct 2007 9:04 pm

hello karah, frombelow, we have a new name?

ramrod on Sat, 6th Oct 2007 9:10 pm

“i do think this is a time better spent by people exploring what it is, they want, in terms of the â€œvision thingâ€ the incumbent so sorely lacks, in determining what sort of changes one would like and where our personal preferences coincide with those of others, so that we see, in turn, what sort of constituencies we can build; and finally, the parameters for change that we are prepared to adhere to. i do think that the current frontrunners will most likely be the candidates to consider, but i also think the public temperament would welcome an outsider with a combination of a clean financial record, a recognized work ethic, a demonstrable manegerial/executive ability, and a combination of the common touch and intelligence/sophistication.” – mlq3

I agree completely…

bibeth on Sat, 6th Oct 2007 9:11 pm

We might want to support leaders who are truly intent on working for the good of the country.

So far, we are seeing none of those.

Those who call themselves opposition are just big mouths who just want to make names for themselves and make it to the headlines. They offer really no alternative or solution.

bibeth on Sat, 6th Oct 2007 9:16 pm

“This time, I would assert that GMA (whether she was involved or not) should have announced an investigation (albeit a scripted one) on an â€œalleged briberyâ€ by a High Ranking Govâ€™t Official & one of her Cabinet Members. That act would have divorced herself from any future controversy (which was eventually, the ZTE-NBN deal)”

karah, i have to say i agree.

frombelow on Sat, 6th Oct 2007 9:22 pm

“Those who call themselves opposition are just big mouths who just want to make names for themselves and make it to the headlines. They offer really no alternative or solution.” bibeth

They have to wait for their turn noh. The oppossitionists and the opportunists. Don’t worry noh. The loot is too much noh. Much will be left noh. Just wait for your turn noh.

karah on Sat, 6th Oct 2007 9:24 pm

Beth Thanks for heeding my invitation for you to check this Blog out.

bibeth on Sat, 6th Oct 2007 9:32 pm

karah,

Well, you participating in a blog discussion is an event not to be missed.

Now I know how you got those eyebags. From too much blogging.

pete on Sat, 6th Oct 2007 9:34 pm

mlq3, karah,

Basically, the question is: “where do we go and who’s going to lead us?”

If GMA is ousted, resigns or goes on leave, Noli can lead us back to the constitution.

(a delayed reply to Karah’s questions in the kowtow thread re:LOA )

karah on Sat, 6th Oct 2007 9:39 pm

Pete If we follow the Constitution, it’s Noli whether we like it or not. Now, the question is, would something “unconstitutional or even extraconstitutional” have the support of the Filipinos?

There are others who “status quo”, there are others who say “GMA should be out.” Quite easy to discuss these things but down the line, we are still bordering on theories and speculations.

frombelow on Sat, 6th Oct 2007 9:39 pm

“Basically, the question is: â€œwhere do we go and whoâ€™s going to lead us?â€ ”

A question countlessly answered during the trying times of great civilizations. As they say, the cemeteries are full of indespinsible leaders. GMA out. No big deal.

karah on Sat, 6th Oct 2007 9:45 pm

Beth Stop puffing your cigarette first, join in the discussions.

bibeth on Sat, 6th Oct 2007 9:46 pm

Noli can assume the presidency if GMA is ousted from office as mandated by the constitution.

But the question of wheter it will bring any change is another matter.

Note: No puffing.

karah on Sat, 6th Oct 2007 9:48 pm

Frombelow We can’t really predict Historical Events unless they unfold in front of our eyes. Like what happened to Erap, who would have thought that by not opening an “envelope,” it would become the last straw. What if the envelope was opened? Would that have changed history?

After all is said and done, whether GMA would be PROSECUTED or NOT, whether GMA would be CONVICTED or NOT, she will have the same privileges like that of Erap. Look at what happened to the Marcoses. It’s an unfair world, really.

bibeth on Sat, 6th Oct 2007 9:52 pm

Karah,

the only puff i put in my mouth are cream puffs.

ramrod on Sat, 6th Oct 2007 9:55 pm

I refuse to believe that the present batch of government officials is the best the “Philippines” can offer and there is no one else capable of running the country. We only have to look harder. Lets ask ourselves “where are we now?where do we intend to go from here?and set up measurable parameters for the objectives and goals that come up. Then we ask, “what kind of leaders do we need?what traits must they have?what track record are we looking for?what are their plans for us, fo the country, for the office? the answers to these questions must be enablers for the goals that were defined. then we decide on how we are going to choose them and how to protect the integrity of the process. then we give our all out support and finally government and people become partners in nation building.

The reality is different, we actually have no choice, we are deceived, manipulated, and bought.

rego on Sat, 6th Oct 2007 9:59 pm

Manolo And Karah,

It was actually a very enteresting exchange. So why cut it? Its even very relevant to the thread because thi sthread its all about impeachment of the president. So maybe we can enumerat here all the sins and ” not only impeachable sins of Gloria that we know or perceived to be.

Im have some follow up clarification.

“I believe the President has done great harm to all our institutions. I am personally convinced she will find every means to stay in power; her minimum political objective would be to find a successor who will protect her, but who can she trust?”- Manolo

Is there a way were could we be more specific on harm that she has done to “ALL” institutions?

Obviously number one is COMERLEC. My gosh, this office is so badly damaged by Gloria’s era . From the appointment of Garci until Abalos resignation. Can we still undo the damage? What needs to be done?

I was thinking that computerization of election will help much. But this is just systems fix. How about the integrity and credibility of the office itself. Can it still be fixed?

However, other than COMELEC, I can’t see other institution that were badly damaged by this administration. Maybe you guys can point it out to me and to all readers? And it would be better if you can try to be objective and factual about it. And mor especific too. Just like the way, Manolo and Karah presented it.

ramrod on Sat, 6th Oct 2007 10:02 pm

“After all is said and done, whether GMA would be PROSECUTED or NOT, whether GMA would be CONVICTED or NOT, she will have the same privileges like that of Erap. Look at what happened to the Marcoses. Itâ€™s an unfair world, really.” – karah

Let her have the same priveleges. As long as we find both closure to GMA’s term in 2010 and a new beginning for ourselves. One thing I’m not in favor of is the political unrest and economic decay that goes with a forced change in power – not good for business (especially our business).

karah on Sat, 6th Oct 2007 10:03 pm

Ram The issues raised would again BOIL DOWN to the circus called “Elections.” All the questions and assertions are valid but come the “E-day”, a person can only vote once. And sadly, the Filipinos does not have a good track record in choosing its leaders from the Barangay Level up to the National Level.

We are fortunate we can discuss these things but majority of Filipinos, does not even have the time to open a Newspaper, much more go online and Blog like we do. It’s quite a doleful reality. Try asking these questions to the a streetvendor, jeepney driver, and even cigarrete boys. Since they were born, life’s hard to them and if there’s only one thing in their mind, it is: “How will I eat and survive today” – nothing more, nothing less.

frombelow on Sat, 6th Oct 2007 10:04 pm

Karah,

“Pete If we follow the Constitution, itâ€™s Noli whether we like it or not. Now, the question is, would something â€œunconstitutional or even extraconstitutionalâ€ have the support of the Filipinos?”

I think too legalistic, nay simplistic.
If ever an extraconstutional method prevails, how do we know that it is supported by the people?
Making it successful does not follow that it is being supported.
So how can we gauge its support? Of course though some scientific method of measuring public support. Lik an honest election of sort.
But if the method is unconstitutional, will the winners submit themselves to an honest election?

So, we must not deluge ourselves that we can gauge if the unconstitutional method employed is supported or not. If they win, thats it. Just like in EDSA 1 and 2.

bibeth on Sat, 6th Oct 2007 10:06 pm

ramrod,

A leader who really wants to change the country must have certain qualities that he/she must be able to manifest.

“A great leader is an ungrateful leader”
Can he/she be able to resist paying political debts? Or can avoid getting indebted? Corruption in the government have its roots on these “political debts”. Businessmen and certain personalities or groups throw their support but with strings attached. Big Contracts, juicy positions are the most common form of payment.

His/her association with certain people must be closely watched. Is he mingling with opportunists? Communists?

Until that kind of leader emerges, we just have to contend with what is available.

frombelow on Sat, 6th Oct 2007 10:09 pm

“Until that kind of leader emerges, we just have to contend with what is available.”

Sorry, the most fatalistic quote of the night.

karah on Sat, 6th Oct 2007 10:18 pm

Frombelow I based my assumption from the idea of the EDSA 1 and EDSA 2 experience. Be as it may, I will raise this idea that has haunted this so-called “popular and peaceful revolt.”

The variable is: when it comes to calls for an OUTSTER (take for example GMA), does Metro Manila alone represent the whole sentiment of the whole country?

This has been the dilemma all along if we will talk about SUPPORT of the “FILIPINO PEOPLE” on the whole and not the SUPPORT “of the people in Imperial Manila” if ever “constitutional unconstitutional, extraconstitutional means are employed.” People from the Visayas and Mindanao has always been neglected in this regard. It’s like, what the people in Metro Manila does, the people from Visayas and Mindanao have to choice but to be forced whatever Manila serves them.

Gauging support is very hard – it’s not a exact science. Although it’s a numbers game, it does not end there. We are after all a country of at least 90 Million (+/-). And Metro Manila is around how many?

I always hear this quote: “the proof of the pudding is in the eating.” Same goes in every TRANSITION PERIOD. One cannot know, one does not have any guarantees how this ELECTED OFFICIAL, or this SUCCESSOR would behave not unless he/she is already up there.

bibeth on Sat, 6th Oct 2007 10:19 pm

“the most fatalistic quote of the night”

most realistic

ramrod on Sat, 6th Oct 2007 10:21 pm

“Try asking these questions to the a streetvendor, jeepney driver, and even cigarrete boys. Since they were born, lifeâ€™s hard to them and if thereâ€™s only one thing in their mind, it is: â€œHow will I eat and survive todayâ€ – nothing more, nothing less.”-karah

So its a “communications” solution then. How these issues can be simplified in a manner the hungry man can appreciate? I am reminded again of an art managers need to master, the ability to relate and be relatable, the ability to influence, the ability to lead and to motivate.Change does not need to involve the whole, focus on the 20%, the critical few, the catalyst if you may. Mountains can be moved this way…
At any rate, I pray (along with prayers for Burma) that we do not lose sight of what really matters and focus on them. If its doing our jobs the best way we can, pay our taxes, obey the laws (to include traffic), provide a good education for our children and teach them good values. I also ask that we do not allow ourselves to be paralyzed by apathy and even hatred for GMA and company so much so that she and her (mis)achievements are all we see and let them take up all the space in our attention. As I said lets focus on what really matters…

frombelow on Sat, 6th Oct 2007 10:25 pm

karah

“I always hear this quote: â€œthe proof of the pudding is in the eating.â€ Same goes in every TRANSITION PERIOD. One cannot know, one does not have any guarantees how this ELECTED OFFICIAL, or this SUCCESSOR would behave not unless he/she is already up there.”

so let’s try Noli.

ramrod on Sat, 6th Oct 2007 10:30 pm

“so letâ€™s try Noli.”

Yes. Why not Noli? Precisely, as a start, lets study him, get to know him, what makes him tick, is he the one? I’ve been pining for at least a list of possibles so we can dissect/study them. Its at least a first step, at least we accomplish somthing at the end of our bloggings. Why not start with Noli. What do we know about him?

frombelow on Sat, 6th Oct 2007 10:32 pm

â€œTry asking these questions to the a streetvendor, jeepney driver, and even cigarrete boys. Since they were born, lifeâ€™s hard to them and if thereâ€™s only one thing in their mind, it is: â€œHow will I eat and survive todayâ€ – nothing more, nothing less.â€-karah

Have you ever try live with them. As in immersion with the so-called masses.
Some people really are guilty of sterotyping.
How sure are we that those people are only thinking of “how thye will eat and survive today.”
You will be surprise. They talk politics a lot, although not at the lvel of the “bloggers”, intellect- wise, that is.
Come to think of it, it is the middle class that it probabably thinking of “how thye will eat and survive today.” In another context of course.
But saying that, I am also guilty of stereotyping.

MAV on Sat, 6th Oct 2007 10:34 pm

Noli has a good feel of the masa .They trust him.Can you say that of the current “occupant” of the Palace?

bibeth on Sat, 6th Oct 2007 10:35 pm

frombelow,

The country is not like a small classroom, when the president does not do his job very well, we could simply ignore him/her.

Don’t let the low-profile image of Noli de Castro fool you. He too have his share of bad companies, and unsavory people sorrounding him.

Your suggestion of making Noli the next president will make Karah laugh so hard she would fall of her chair.

karah on Sat, 6th Oct 2007 10:36 pm

Ram It’s a COMMUNICATIONS as well as an EDUCATION problem. And I mean two-way communication not one-way in this case. EDUCATION is that most of Filipinos still need to open their eyes that not everything a Politician says is “what it seems.” But it’s not that easy. How and when will you “communicate and educate” with these people is a big, big task. Hand-to-mouth existence does not even give the luxury of free-time to these people. I am truly saddened but in my own little way, I can only do as much to help this people in whatever way I can.

True, CHANGE and TRANSFORMATION does not need everybody. What it needs are altruistic, honest, and people with the right convictions. You know how things work today, even the MOST HONEST OF MEN get enticed by MONEY especially in dire need (for himself or for the family). I know there are a lot of good Filipino people but they just in the sidelines – observing things. How we give the impetus for these people to take a more active role in politics and nation-building.

Big things start from small things. As the chinese would say, “a journey of a thousand steps begin with one-step.” Our being law abiding and good citizens INSPITE and DESPITE of the shortcomings of the State do contribute a lot to lessen the poison that’s going around. Another quote, “It’s better to light a candle than curst the darkness.”

bibeth on Sat, 6th Oct 2007 10:42 pm

“Noli has a good feel of the masa .They trust him.Can you say that of the current â€œoccupantâ€ of the Palace?”

Actually, Karah wants to see Noli get the presidency and see what he is made of.

Makes us wonder if Karah have a crush on Noli?

ramrod on Sat, 6th Oct 2007 10:42 pm

Hey guys, here’s something I want to share with you, it comes from an institution I once loved (and probebly still do). What do you think is the real message?

Leading the Righteous Way

The demands of the Honor System are simple. We are not to lie, to cheat, to steal and to take advantage of others.

However, the Honor System is not only to govern our behavior as cadets in order to level the playing field in our academics. The Honor System and its Code is designed to inculcate in us the leadership qualities needed by our nation. The Honor System is to govern us even outside the limits of Fort Del Pilar and in our daily private and official lives.

In the Academy, we are trained to be leaders. As cadets, we all aspired to eventually become deserving generals. That is to be expected. And to be one, we had to strive and improve in our profession in order to deserve our promotions. Expectedly, each one of us strove to excel in our respective fields of operations.

We were then truly apolitical. The people had faith that the Armed Services can be neutral in the political exercises. There was then also the assurance that elections can be undertaken without fraud if the military kept watch over the process.

I believe that every graduate of the Academy can rightfully aspire to become the Chief of Staff or Chief of the Philippine National Police but we must accept the fact that not all of us can attain that ambition. There was a time when promotions and assignments to important positions were primarily based on competence.

Those days are obviously gone. Since the martial law days, the common perception is that the process involved in the promotions and assignments of officers, particularly among the higher ranks, has become politicized. I am truly aware as you are, that promotions and assignments obtained through political connections involve quid pro quos.

Promotions to higher ranks and positions are perceived to be no longer necessarily dictated by competence and dedication to duty. The recent spate of restiveness among our junior officers is obviously caused by this perception and reality. The politicization of the military remains unabated these days. The term â€˜an apolitical militaryâ€™ has become fiction. A lie.

There was the time when the word of an officer, especially of a PMA graduate, was taken at face value. There was integrity. PMA graduates were entrusted with positions of trust. We were truthful to our friends. Deception was reserved against our enemies.

However, in these trying times, lying is pervasive and practiced even against our people who deserve to know the Truth. These days, those who hold positions of trust, especially those who handle financial matters, are no longer thought to be worthy of faith and trust. There will always be suspicion that something anomalous goes on, especially those whose lifestyles do not reasonably match the pay scales of their ranks. The temptations of â€˜conversionâ€™ have sapped the moral strength of some of our officers. Integrity in PMA graduates seems to have become another fiction.

The recent exposes on the crimes of some of the alumni of the PMA who deviated from the Honor System alert us to the immoral virus contaminating our Armed Services. I am sure there are still others who will be uncovered and must be purged from our Association. We seem to be in a regime where stealing public funds, lying and cheating have become the acceptable norm for one to succeed. Mistrust is tearing our nation into small pieces.

The real meaning of Loyalty in our PMA motto is lost. Loyalty is no longer given to the institution or to the country, but given to ambitious persons with doubtful motives and self-interest. Loyalty to principles among some PMA graduates has become fiction. Ostracism seems to be reserved against the idealists and not against those who stray from the Righteous Path.

Are we to allow the degeneration of morals in our professional corps of officers to continue? We are now under the spotlight of shame. The point is reached that when a crime is unearthed in the Armed Services, the question is asked: â€˜Is he a PMAyer?â€™

You may be distressed by the dismal picture of our moral state of affairs I have given. Nevertheless, I consider it my duty to do so. I need to do it. As Rizal once said, the cancer of society must be presented to the public in order that appropriate cures may be obtained.

What is to be done?

Although we, who are already retired, can no longer directly take action in reforming the Armed Services, we must nevertheless, exercise our moral suasion to insist on the urgent and necessary institutional changes for the good of our society and of the nation. We owe our young and idealistic officers our moral effort, support and example.

We must not disappoint them.

Now is the time to breathe new life into the Honor System and restore the PMA alumni to the high esteem of society.

Now is the time to revive and strengthen the righteous spirit of Courage, Loyalty and Integrity among all alumni and members of this Association. Otherwise, the future for those who will come after us will be in doubt. In the dark.

Leading the Righteous Way is the imperative for all of us.

The Cavaliers,
The PMA Alumni Association
February 2006

frombelow on Sat, 6th Oct 2007 10:44 pm

bibeth

” Donâ€™t let the low-profile image of Noli de Castro fool you. He too have his share of bad companies, and unsavory people sorrounding him.”

Noli is far from low-profile. If you know what i mean.
Anyway, dissecting him must not begin with pre-judging him.If we believe in fair play.

bibeth on Sat, 6th Oct 2007 10:47 pm

“IT IS BETTER TO BE HATED FOR WHO YOU ARE THAN LOVED FOR WHAT YOU ARE NOT”

That should be the prevailing attitude of a successful leader. He/she should not be spending most of the time trying to please the masses. Masses have a tunnel vision. If they don’t like you, no amount of effort would be able to change their track of mind.

Try to be practical and effective, not POPULAR.

Erap was extremely popular with the masses but what good did it bring to the country, and the masa remained masa.

ramrod on Sat, 6th Oct 2007 10:48 pm

So we begin.

Noli de Castro

Positives

1. good feel for the masa
2. achievements in housing(?)
3. not openly associated with corruption

karah on Sat, 6th Oct 2007 10:49 pm

karah :
Your comment is awaiting moderation.

ramrod on Sat, 6th Oct 2007 10:52 pm

karah,

how do you make those smilies?

frombelow on Sat, 6th Oct 2007 10:53 pm

â€œIT IS BETTER TO BE HATED FOR WHO YOU ARE THAN LOVED FOR WHAT YOU ARE NOTâ€

That should be the prevailing attitude of a successful leader. He/she should not be spending most of the time trying to please the masses. Masses have a tunnel vision. If they donâ€™t like you, no amount of effort would be able to change their track of mind. Bibeth

So a prerequisite of a good leader is that you are hated by the masa for the masses have a tunnel vision. And not succumbing to the wishes of the masa will make you a good leader.

bibeth on Sat, 6th Oct 2007 10:54 pm

karah,

Whay is it awaiting moderation? I hope the NSA is not the moderator.

MAV on Sat, 6th Oct 2007 10:55 pm

“Leading the Righteous Way

The demands of the Honor System are simple. We are not to lie, to cheat, to steal and to take advantage of others.”

Tell that to Mr.Esperon!

karah on Sat, 6th Oct 2007 10:56 pm

I’ll try again if my post comes through.

Frombelow Actually, I had my IMMERSION somewhere in Nueva Ecija. I taught Out-of-School Youth, I taught in some Basic Education Schools. Do you know what they bring for their food (the OSY, that is)? They brings lots and lots of rice since Nueva Ecija is a rice-producing province so they have lots of those in their own little farmlands. Do you know what they buy from the Canteen as viand? A bottle of Pop Cola which costs 4pesos at that time. Mix the Pop Cola with rice. Lo and behold, they have LUNCH that would last until they get home at night.

Some of these OSY are young, some are married, some even have children. During lunch breaks, if I have some extra cash, I do buy viand for them – maybe a few cans of sardines, or I let someone buy some Viand in the nearby Turo-turo. They are very simple people. Do you know what they always talk about? How they will pass the exams and how they would get a job to support their family. Mind you, the age range would be as young as 18 to as old as 35. Since there are apprenticeship programs like Toyota and other big companies in Laguna, their job is 90% assured when they finish their course. It made my cry when they prepared a very simple yet memorable good-bye soiree for me. They have letters, even letters from the parents and wives thanking me.

I donâ€™t know about your experiences with these people. The setting might be different but I based my premises on my experiences. The very reason, if I have time, I do some volunteer work like in Streetchildren Houses, and the like. Do you know what the Middle Class think? How to prochure the latest cellphone. How to prochure the latest shoes. How to go to the coolest Hangout place (at least for the teens and yuppies). Donâ€™t know about Middle Class families.

karah on Sat, 6th Oct 2007 10:58 pm

I’ve posted my comment and re-posted white but still it’s the same. The comment was intended for “frombelow.”

ramrod on Sat, 6th Oct 2007 10:58 pm

mav,

Yes. Esperon’s classmates, even De Leon and Querubin are pleading with him to tell the truth. He owes it to them, deception is reserved for the enemy.

bibeth on Sat, 6th Oct 2007 10:58 pm

frombelow

YES

Giving in to “masa” whimperings is not only a wrong decision but disastrous as well.

Let’s face it, majority of the masa are not even taxpayers, yet they are the most demanding.

karah on Sat, 6th Oct 2007 11:00 pm

Ram Try typing : ( (without any spaces).

karah on Sat, 6th Oct 2007 11:02 pm

I’ll try posting my response to “frombelow” again but this time, I’ll be dividing the whole comment into parts.

ramrod on Sat, 6th Oct 2007 11:03 pm

Here’s something about Noli de Castro

LEGISLATIVE ACCOMPLISHMENTS

Author of 252 bills and resolutions, 140 of which he principally authored, including bills which, propose:

Upgrading the Salary of Public School Teachers (SBN 404),
Scholarship to Underpriviledged but Deserving Students (SBN 395),
Creation of Pre-Need Protection Fund (SBN 2288),
Substance Abuse Prevention Program (SBN 1786),
Sectoral Representatives in Local Legislative Councils (SBN 2432),
Protection of Mangrove Forest (SBN 2264),
Unemployment Welfare Program (SBN 408),
Newborn Screening Test (SBN 1946),
Patient Rights Act (SBN 2528),
Household Helpers Act (SBN 2618),
Alternative Dispute Resolution Act (SBN 2411),
Transparency and Access to Official Information (SBN 2631),
Prohibiting Pyramid Schemes (SBN 2512),
Magna Carta for Social Workers (SBN 2033

karah on Sat, 6th Oct 2007 11:03 pm

karah on Sat, 6th Oct 2007 11:04 pm

bibeth on Sat, 6th Oct 2007 11:04 pm

Truth… the most used term in today’s politics.

Search for the truth… let the truth come out… and so on.

If you ask for the truth, it should be for the purpose of knowing the truth, not to gain undue popularity and political mileage at the expense of the “truth”

karah on Sat, 6th Oct 2007 11:05 pm

bogchimash on Sat, 6th Oct 2007 11:06 pm

JDV was editor-in-chief when his college paper was ranked no.1 in the world. The guy is not stupid. He should see that they are trying to defang him. Which side will Tabako take? Or is this just a moro-moro?

karah on Sat, 6th Oct 2007 11:07 pm

The 3rd paragraph of my commen didn’t come through and still awaiting moderation. MLQ3 might get mad at me because I attemtped several times to post my comment but to no avail. So, I’ll stop for now.

MAV on Sat, 6th Oct 2007 11:10 pm

http://edition.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/asiapcf/10/05/myanmar.suu.kyi.ap/index.html#cnnSTCText

“Suu Kyi has been compared to Nelson Mandela, Mohandas K. Gandhi and Martin Luther King Jr. Supporters mark her birthday with candlelight vigils, U2 penned the song “Walk On” in her honor, and everyone from first lady Laura Bush to comedian Jim Carrey has championed her cause.”

I hope one day we will have a selfess and principled leader like Suu Kyi,Nelson Mandela,Gandhi and Martin Luther King.

ramrod on Sat, 6th Oct 2007 11:13 pm

“Which side will Tabako take? Or is this just a moro-moro?” – bogchimash

He’s a businessman now. He will take the side of those he sees will protect his interests.

frombelow on Sat, 6th Oct 2007 11:14 pm

Bibeth

“Letâ€™s face it, majority of the masa are not even taxpayers, yet they are the most demanding.” Bibeth

But from what iam hearing. all the political noises and “demands” are coming from the middle and upper classes.

By the way, I thought that the “masa” have no time think other things, especially political, but on how they will survive the day.

bibeth on Sat, 6th Oct 2007 11:14 pm

Karah,

Your comments might have been mistaken by the blogsite’s Spam software to be highly sensitive. It doesn’t like your replies.

I like the Tabasco soaked Spam by the way.

cvj on Sat, 6th Oct 2007 11:15 pm

I think it’s assuming too much if we take as a given that the masa have tunnel vision and the upper and middle classes do not.Wisdom/stupidity, integrity/corruption cuts across all classes in equal measure. In this whole episode, it’s the upper and middle classes that have acted with arrogance and myopia. If we are to really move forward, the filipino upper and middle class is in need of an attitude change.

ramrod on Sat, 6th Oct 2007 11:16 pm

“I like the Tabasco soaked Spam by the way.”-bibeth

So you like your meatloaf hot and spicy?

ramrod on Sat, 6th Oct 2007 11:18 pm

Hey, what happened to the list? What do we know about Noli?

Noli de Castro

Positives

1. good feel for the masa
2. achievements in housing(?)
3. not openly associated with corruption

bibeth on Sat, 6th Oct 2007 11:19 pm

Here’s a trivia. Karah is a frustrated Economist, Lawyer and Doctor. She took up and finished cosmetology though.

bibeth on Sat, 6th Oct 2007 11:20 pm

ramrod,

I love the hot and spicy Spam. Especially its red, hot oily sauce. Eat together with scrambled eggs and you’ll a meal you’ll never forget.

bibeth on Sat, 6th Oct 2007 11:22 pm

Correction:

scrambled eggs and youâ€™ll HAVE a meal youâ€™ll never forget

ramrod on Sat, 6th Oct 2007 11:22 pm

“Hereâ€™s a trivia. Karah is a frustrated Economist, Lawyer and Doctor. She took up and finished cosmetology though.”-bibeth

Hmmmm…Is that the one where you put make up on dead people?

MAV on Sat, 6th Oct 2007 11:23 pm

Noli De Castro

4)UE graduate(NOT Assumionista and whatever else it emans)

5)Telegenic(not like current occupant)

6)Can be TRUSTED.

bibeth on Sat, 6th Oct 2007 11:25 pm

not openly associated with corruption

The keyword there is OPENLY.

Not openly associated doesn’t mean NOT ASSOCIATED. It only means we still don’t him that well yet.

ramrod on Sat, 6th Oct 2007 11:25 pm

“I love the hot and spicy Spam. Especially its red, hot oily sauce. Eat together with scrambled eggs and youâ€™ll a meal youâ€™ll never forget.”-bibeth

Who can forget that, your ears will be smoking and you’ll be in tears?

bibeth on Sat, 6th Oct 2007 11:25 pm

ramrod

tears of joy that is

frombelow on Sat, 6th Oct 2007 11:26 pm

All great revolutions and transformations in the society that eventually benefitted humankind come form the intitiative of the upper crust of the society.
It so happen that those societies have “responsible elite.”
What ever ails afflicting our society, the elite can have its way to cure it. But… is our elite responsible enough?
The return of Russia to liberal democracy was primarily driven by Russia’s elite.(Gorbachev and company.)
Conversely, Russia’s experiment of communism was spearheaded by an elite core of Russia’s society led by Lenin and company.

karah on Sat, 6th Oct 2007 11:27 pm

Ram When Noli became Vice President, he maintained a low profile. I don’t wanna speculate if this low-profile tactic is really true or just a front for other activities. What I can recall of Noli was that there was one time, MGB (Magandang Gabi Bayan) reported about a Bishop in Nueva Ecija (some bad stuff). He sided with the Priest who peddled all these lies. In the end, it was known that it was the Priest who actually duped and betrayed the trust of the Bishop. I don’t know if Noli apologized for this. Julius Babao was still an entry-level reporter. Just heard this story from my cousin. There were also rumors that Noli’s episodes in MGB were for sale. Not to continue the expose would mean you have to exchange it for cash. But then again, these are mere allegations and happened years back.

If Noli would succeed GMA before 2010 then we have to choice, do we? Since it’s how the Constitution tells us to do if GMA (that if she really steps down) before her term ends. Not so sure with what were really his accomplishments in Housing and some OFW advocacies.

Will try to see the true color of Noli once he’s up there.

ramrod on Sat, 6th Oct 2007 11:27 pm

See, our list is growing!

Noli de Castro

Positives

1. good feel for the masa
2. achievements in housing(?)
3. not openly associated with corruption
4)UE graduate(NOT Assumionista and whatever else it
emans)
5)Telegenic(not like current occupant)
6)Can be TRUSTED.

Mav, I take it that you don’t like watching Kokey?

MAV on Sat, 6th Oct 2007 11:29 pm

â€œI love the hot and spicy Spam.”

Good for people with Hemorrhoids!

Happy weekend or whatever is left of it!

good night everybody!

bibeth on Sat, 6th Oct 2007 11:31 pm

â€œHereâ€™s a trivia. Karah is a frustrated Economist, Lawyer and Doctor. She took up and finished cosmetology though.â€-bibeth

Hmmmmâ€¦Is that the one where you put make up on dead people? – ramrod

Well, you too could avail of her make-up services. You can post your reservations now. You’ll be dying to see what she can do.

karah on Sat, 6th Oct 2007 11:33 pm

Beth Why I gave you the link to this website. Truth to tell, you’re too restless and wandering.

bibeth on Sat, 6th Oct 2007 11:39 pm

Karah

Your too serious sometimes. just hoped to see you lighten up a little bit here in the blogs.

Anyway somebody is interested in your make-up services, he is just dying to get in line.

ramrod on Sat, 6th Oct 2007 11:43 pm

Anyway, what are all of you doing pecking at the pc on a perfectly beautiful Saturday night? Don’t you have somewhere hot to go to?

ramrod on Sat, 6th Oct 2007 11:46 pm

frombelow,

I agree with you. The middle class is a very powerful change agent, thats why I’m happy with the rise of the OFWs, BPOs, and SMEs – this will result to an increase in the middle class.

mlq3 on Sat, 6th Oct 2007 11:51 pm

re: imperial manila. don’t forget that because of migration, since the end of ww2 a large percentage, even possibly a majority of those living here are non-tagalogs. it is a melting pot.

note as well, that more people live in urban areas now, than in rural areas, overall percentage wise if im not mistaken. while each city is unique it will lead to more city-like behavior, more city-like thinking: the gulf in political attitudes between manila and other urban centers will therefore shrink.

this is where elections serve a useful gage of where public opinion lies: this is a true national sample and this is why senatorial elections are attractive to many -it is the closest thing to a presidential election in an off-year.

while the last 4 slots in every senate election have been questioned, most people agree the top 8 are as close to an authentic expression of opinion as we can get. and you can break it down province by province, and even taking into consideration favorite son/daughter variables affecting candidates, an overall picture emerges.

that picture was on the whole, anti-administration.

bibeth on Sat, 6th Oct 2007 11:51 pm

Well, just got home. A little dose of blog and PC pecking is good for your health.

But Karah has sevre eyebugs from too much blogging, she wont come out fot the meantime.

ramrod on Sat, 6th Oct 2007 11:57 pm

“most people agree the top 8 are as close to an authentic expression of opinion as we can get. and you can break it down province by province, and even taking into consideration favorite son/daughter variables affecting candidates, an overall picture emerges.”-mlq3

Aha! So the top 8 senators are basically the winnable candidates in a 2010 presidential elections? We must therefore include them in our list for dissection/study.

bibeth on Sun, 7th Oct 2007 12:05 am

mlq,

I don’t believe the Senatorial race or any elections thereof is the peoples’ authentic expression of opinion.

candidats rarrely win because people believe in their capability. Gimmicks and endorsements play key roles.

Making buzz in the news also boost your chances. Take for example Cayetano and Escudero and Trillanes. These 3 won by sheer numbers of appearance on TV and radio.

mlq3 on Sun, 7th Oct 2007 12:05 am

every senator is a potential president, that’s one reason we have a specifically nationally-elected senate. the potential of some, however, is reduced by things like health, age, etc. some people are meant to go only as high as the senate: an example was lorenzo tanada who was a senator for thirty years.

bibeth on Sun, 7th Oct 2007 12:11 am

Running for the Senate is a good diving board for those who have presidential ambitions. It is a litmus test on their popularity across the country.

Those senators who are eyeing the presidency is not yet going to make any moves as of now. They want to make their moves at the last moment so people can still vividly remember and hopefully get their attention and votes.

mlq3 on Sun, 7th Oct 2007 12:18 am

bibith, that’s a question on the level of how do i know i exist? what is democracy? relatively free elections are a perfectable but always imperfect instrument and no better way has been found for enabling people to have some sort of say in how their leaders are chosen and will run a country.

just a note. trillanes was in detention during the campaign. he never matched the advertising and exposure of other candidates who had much much more but still lost.

bibeth on Sun, 7th Oct 2007 12:21 am

Sandy

Trying to remedy your eyebag problem with a cucumber is not going to be effective. Just eat the cucumber.

Try to spend more time blogging late at night. Hopefully another eyebag will cancel the existing eyebag out.

bibeth on Sun, 7th Oct 2007 12:32 am

mlq3

its bibeth sir.

Anyway elections in our country is beginning to look more and more like more of a battle of popularity, rather than battle of wits and programs.

Very few candidates present their programs and instead concentrate on throwing mud at their opponents or riding on popular issues. Its sad to say many people are mezmerized by such display of “courage”.

By the way trillanes was not a humble and beliguered candidate he seemed to be. That was just his portrayal of himself. His family is a supplier in the AFP. You may want to rethink your belief that Trillanes was a “poor” and helpless candidate.

karah on Sun, 7th Oct 2007 12:35 am

MLQ3 It can be asserted that the Senate is where some of the Philippine Presidents came from. I don’t know the ratio how many Philippine Presidents since the time of Aguinaldo became Senators before becoming the CEO of the land. Did some research. Here are my findings:

Emilio Aguinaldo – didn’t become a Senator
Manuel L. Quezon – was a Senator, in fact became the Senate President
Sergio Osmena – didn’t become a Senator but became the Speaker of the Lower House
Jose P. Laurel – was a Senator
Manuel Roxas – was a Senator, in fact became the Senate President as well
Elpidio Quirino – was a Senator, became the Senate President “pro tempore”
Ramon Magsaysay – didn’t become a Senator but became a Congressman
Ferdinand Marcos – became a Senator
Corazon Aquino – did not become a Senator
Fidel Ramos – did not become a Senator
Gloria Macapagal-Arroyo – became a Senator

What we have here is 8 out of 14 (approximately 57%). (Manolo, please check my facts if I didn’t get anything wrong). Whether the next President would come from the Senate remains to be seen. We don’t know what will transpire from today until the next Elections in 2010.

The problem with nationally-elected Senators is that they don’t have a particular constituency to be answerable to. Yes, they are answerable to the Filipino people but how?

bibeth on Sun, 7th Oct 2007 12:50 am

karah,

There are also many popular figures not in any government posts who are vary capable to run for president. Its anybody’s game in 2010.

bibeth on Sun, 7th Oct 2007 12:57 am

Well, it seems nobody’s replying anymore.

Maybe its time we call it a day and tuck ourselves in a cozy bed.

As for Karah, she invited me in here, and she is now dozing off and sleeping comfortably.

mlq3 on Sun, 7th Oct 2007 1:12 am

bibith, apologies for misspelling your name.

I voted for Trillanes, and interviewed him:

http://www.ourmedia.org/node/311571

karah, the senate was established in 1916, elected by districts, and abolished in 1935 and restored in 1941, elected nationally:

Emilio Aguinaldo – didnâ€™t become a Senator
Manuel L. Quezon – was a Senator, in fact became the Senate President
Sergio Osmena – was the Speaker of the Lower House and Senate President pro tempore
Jose P. Laurel – was a Senator
Manuel Roxas – was Speaker of the House and then also Senate President as well
Elpidio Quirino – was a Senator, became the Senate President â€œpro temporeâ€
Ramon Magsaysay – congressman, cabinet member, then president
Carlos P. Garcia: was a senator
Diosdado Macapagal ran for senator but lost
Ferdinand Marcos – became a Senate President
Corazon Aquino – did not hold any political office prior to becoming president
Fidel Ramos – was a constabulary officer prior to entering politics after becoming a cabinet member.
Gloria Macapagal-Arroyo – became a Senator

Governorships is also a way: Quezon, Osmena, Roxas, Garcia had all been governors. Aguinaldo and Estrada had been mayors. Quezon, Osmena, Roxas, Quirino, Magsaysay, Macapagal had all been congresssmen/assemblymen. Roxas, Quirino, Laurel, Magsaysay, Garcia, Ramos, Arroyo, all served in cabinets. Aguinaldo, Roxas, Ramos achieved general rank; Quezon and Marcos reached junior officer rank as did Magsaysay; Garcia was a guerrilla leader. All except Aguinaldo, Magsaysay, Aquino, Ramos and Arroyo were lawyers.

Bencard on Sun, 7th Oct 2007 1:14 am

karah: I think you forgot to mention pres. diosdado macapagal who did not become a senator but had been a congressman for a number of consecutive terms. he was also the vice president (from the opposing party) in the garcia presidency. fwiw, i regret to this day voting against him (for marcos) in 1967. not that it would have mattered, but i truly admired the man’s honesty and humility. he had been a bright light in congress.

vic on Sun, 7th Oct 2007 2:04 am

Bencard, I’m not sure if my memory serves me right, Macapagal run for Vice President under the Liberal banner of Sergio Osmena Sr. and then successfully run against Garcia to become the President. I did vote for him against Marcos, because I could at that time foreseen Marcos being an Aristocrat and although very intelligent, at that time after Magsaysay, I don’t have much confidence with very intelligent politicians, academicians maybe and scientists certainly. Well, I only experienced the first 2 years of his Martial Law rule..

Manila Bay Watch on Sun, 7th Oct 2007 2:46 am

Mlq3,Ramrod,Karah, and everyone via Ellen Tordesillas blog

http://www.ellentordesillas.com/?p=1709#comment-385723

Following Ramrod’s posting of the Cavaliers’ letter of 2006, here’s another good read (Joint statement by the 28 incarcerated officers):

Never in the history of the Armed Forces of the Philippines has one man and his criminal gang brought so much shame to our beloved organization. Allegations that this man and a few criminal elements among the ranks of the AFP have allowed themselves to be used to subvert the Constitution and destroy the very essence of democracy have become our collective shame.

Nay, it is our collective shame that we failed to STOP them. The thought of this failure reaffirms our resolve to bring them to justice. That is our covenant with the people and our sworn duty to the Constitution.

We have been repeatedly called by Mr. Esperon as â€œpolitical destabilizersâ€ in almost every forum that affords him opportunity. We pose these questions to you Mr. Esperon:

Who cried unabashedly in front of national viewers when his mentor announced that she will not covet the presidency again?

â€œWho stands accused of cheating in the elections in 2004? Who stands accused of lying? Who stands accused of stealing votes? Who was mentioned in the Garci tapes? Who debased the Armed Forces of the Philippines by being party to cheating, stealing and lying? Who hides behind EO 464 when given the opportunity to let the truth out?â€

â€œWho vigorously opposes the Mayuga report from being published? Who hides behind that little skirt to save his ass? Who invokes the words `state secretâ€™ like a criminal who invokes the Fifth Amendment when caught? And since when has a criminal act become a state secret?â€ Pray tell, Mr. Esperon.

Patriotism is not our monopoly, Mr. Esperon.

No! In fact, the mere mention of this word brings out inadequacies in us. However, our definition of patriotism does not include involving ourselves in the criminal act of subverting the will of the people. Neither does it include closing our eyes while the crime is being committed.

Incarceration is a very small price to pay for that definition.

There are â€œmore good men outsideâ€, you said. We agree, Mr. Esperon. Our sympathies go to those men who are placed in an unenviable position to clean up the mess that you made. Our sympathies go to those good men who try to rebuild the institution which you had destroyed. Our sympathies go to those good men who are left to pick up the pieces after being victims of a crime themselves.

Allow us to refresh your memory to recount events, Mr. Esperon. During the height of the fighting in Central Mindanao, a Marine general offered his own blood so than an enemy may live. Another marine general took it upon himself to lobby for a humane treatment for Nur Misuari whom we all had the opportunity to cross swords. Do we need to tell you who Nur Misuari is, Mr. Esperon?
Those, Mr. Esperon are acts of honorable men. Those acts distinguish men of courage. Those acts remind us that the AFP is an institution, upholds human dignity of life.

Yes Mr. Esperon, you may succeed in destroying our physical being but never shall you have the satisfaction of destroying our will and spirit, as well. NEVER!

We have not given up on you, Mr. Esperon. There might still be some good left in you. You will be leaving the service in a few months time. Please do the nation and your family a favor. Tell the truth. You might still earn our salute. Every Navy man worth is salt knows why we call you â€œMisterâ€â€¦We lost that on you,â€

BrianB on Sun, 7th Oct 2007 2:50 am

“I dont like Noli. But I DONT LIKE GMA MORE.”

Ladies and gents, the choice is not GMA or Noli. The choice is between law and lawlessness.

pete on Sun, 7th Oct 2007 5:56 am

karah, fromb,

VP Noli has come to represent the constitutional regime change option.

Main issue against a Noli presidency is uncertainty. Two mitigating factors: one is constitutionality, his assumption into office if GMA is impeached, resigns or goes on leave is solidly constitutional. Second is the â€˜sovereign will of the peopleâ€™ factor via his mandate as VP.

A three year Noli presidency could be the providential transition period that could restore our national political leadership back to constitutionality and legitimacy.

Isnâ€™t the resolution of the legitimacy issue at the top priority? Without first resolving the national leadershipâ€™s legitimacy issue, we cannot make any further steps towards any kind of reform.

Letâ€™s analyze the proposition that a Noli presidency could lead us back to the constitution. Upon Noli being sworn into office, a crucial element of legitimacy is immediately effected. A three year transition to normalcy could commence with a significant level of political stability than if GMA stays.

Supposing we get a consensus about the urgency of going for the Noli-constitutional regime change option, the next question is how to push for it in a way consistent with the constitution.

mlq3 on Sun, 7th Oct 2007 11:08 am

bencard, vic,

dm ran with jose yulo in 1957. yulo lost but dm won as the first opposition vp elected. dm ran for president in 61 and won with pelaez. he ran for reelection in 65 with gerry roxas but both lost to fm and fernando lopez.

details in http://www.pangulo.ph

Bencard on Sun, 7th Oct 2007 11:27 am

mwb, thanks for your effort in posting the accused magdalo rebels’ statement. frankly, it earns no sympathy nor respect for their “cause” from me. i see it as a tragic failure of discipline – the lifeblood of any military organization. it is a glaring example of how politicized our military has become; a precipitous slide since the magsaysay presidency.

to one whose father lost his life resisting the japs; whose only paternal uncle died with his boots on (or whatever was left of them) on the road to capas after fighting a heroic battle in bataan; whose cousin died in action in korea a year after graduating from pma; whose young brother in law (also a pma grad) is currently serving in mindanao; this rebellious adventurism for political ends is not easy to swallow.

these alleged traitors are the ones who stand accused in a court of law. by their own words, they have decided to put the law into their own hands and failed. they express no remorse for their unlawful act, vowing to continue defying their superiors and meting out their brand of “justice” on the latter.

since when does donating blood an exceptionally noble act. i give blood to red cross almost every year and i don’t make a big deal out of it. neither do i consider it important who uses it, friend or foe, male or female, young or old, black, brown, red, yellow or white. leniency for misuari? what can i say? maybe a medal of honor?

how does one destroy an institution if not by overthrowing it? what does a “destroyed” institution look like if it still exists?

no one should close his eyes when a crime is being committed. neither should he shoot to kill the suspect. he should report it to proper authorities and testify against the culprit. failure to report a crime is obstruction of justice, which is a crime in itself.

Harry on Sun, 7th Oct 2007 11:40 am

“Manolo And Karah,

It was actually a very enteresting exchange. So why cut it? Its even very relevant to the thread because thi sthread its all about impeachment of the president. So maybe we can enumerat here all the sins and â€ not only impeachable sins of Gloria that we know or perceived to be.” -rego

agree with you rego. the exchange of views was getting interesting by the time. i dunno why it was cut

harry c

vic on Sun, 7th Oct 2007 11:49 am

thanks manolo, got confused between Osmena and Roxas. just testing my memory after losing most of it from some unexplained health issue that was resolved and treated successfully but until now my neu can’t explained the cause. my suspicion is starvation of good cholesterol (DHL) after going on massive statin therapy. Emmanuel Pelaez din’t even ring a bell.

karah on Sun, 7th Oct 2007 1:27 pm

Bencard I did not intend to complete the Political Career of each of the Past Philippine Presidents. The issue was the SENATE and so I discriminately researched on who among Past/Present Presidents became a Senator.

You are right though in saying that some Past/Presdent Presidents became Vice-Presidents before they catapulted themselves into the Presidency.

There are really no guarantees how things would unfold. There were good Politicians who became bad. On the other hand, there were shady Politicians who changed hard and eventually did something good for the nation. Just like life, no amount of analysis could predict how a PERSON would behave once HE/SHE becomes the PRESIDENT. Marcos was a good President in the beginning. Now who would have thought he would become the longest serving President in Philippines History and even became a DICTATOR.

karah on Sun, 7th Oct 2007 1:33 pm

MLQ3 I do respect the exercise of your “constitutional right” to choose who you will vote. The only thing I like about Trillanes might be his physical appearance but that’s it. Here are my reasons why I dislike him:

Were you able to verify and even research that Trillanes’ family was an AFP supplier and the alleged one of the favorite “overpricing supplier” of the AFP? I wonder why this issue didn’t come out. In trying to understand a person, we must always look at his background.

Being a mere Lieutenant, why is that he has Pajero and Nissan Patrol at his disposal. He might reason out that his parents are rich but isn’t that doubtful is a sense that he’s a Military Officer and not a Private Citizen?

Trillanes was a La Sallian before he went to the Academy. Come to think of it, this guy does not belong (not anywhere near the marginalized sector) to the so-called “oppressed.” Why is he being portrayed like a victim – that he has no money for elections, that he does not have any resources for the elections, that we has the underdog. It’s like MEDIA portrayed him to be the “knight in shining armor” for Philippine Politics.

If we’re talking about PRINCIPLES, then I would go for the FACTION of GAMBALA and co. Why? Gambala came from the squatters-area (of which he is not ashamed of). Became the Valedictorian of this Class at the PMA. Although he had the option of join the more prestigious Air Force and Navy, he chose to be in the Army. With this alone, we can say who has pure intentions and how has ulterior motives. By the way, the 100 Million that “alleged” Erap gave to Trillanes for the Oakwood Mutiny, where is it now? Why was this not investigated?

cvj on Sun, 7th Oct 2007 1:34 pm

Karah, as i recall there were people who anticipated that Marcos would become a dictator, Ninoy Aquino among others. It’s just that not enough in the public were listening and/or even if they heard the message, did not find enough compelling reasons to act until it was too late (by 14 years). They thought by giving up their freedoms, they would achieve prosperity.

I agree with you that no amount of analysis could predict how a person would act when he/she becomes president. That’s why an active public sphere is needed to constantly discipline whoever is in office. The problem is, we have a mindset that our duty in choosing our leaders ends with elections and/or people power events. We need to take that requirement into account when discussing a Noli presidency.

karah on Sun, 7th Oct 2007 1:39 pm

Bencard Un-Constitutional and Extra-Constitutional Methods would really raise eyebrows no matter it became successful or not. As in the case of the EDSA, those were EXTRA-CONSTITUTIONAL METHODS (beyond what is provided for in a constitution) but were in the end UPHELD by the COURTS (the Supreme Court for that matter). Success means a withdrawal of support or overtake could be LEGAL taking into consideration the anarchy that would happen if warring camps would collide head-on.

I know where you’re coming from based on your familial history – your Father, your Uncle, your Cousin, and you Brother-in-Law all died for the country in different historical events. These were honorable men who followed orders and who laid down their lives for freedom. We salute these people.

Re: REBEL SOLDIERS. It’s a good thing I did not become a MAN. If was male, I would have entered the PMA and became a soldier. If I was the Field Commander at the time the Magdalo Group tookover the Oakwood Suites (together with it the whole Glorietta Mall and surroundings Commercial and Business Areas), I would have APPROVED A SIEGE – force for force. What happened became an AWFUL PREDECENT. Yes, they crushed it but what would prevent the next generation to state such an act and in the end would be accorded DUE PROCESS? The Gov’t should have taken this situation with an IRON HAND – kill them all. I bet nobody and I mean nobody would DARE stage another COUP, another MUTINY, another REBELLION even again from the ranks of the AFP, even the PNP.

What’s more damning is that one of the leaders of this reprehensible deviation from the Constitution and the Rule of Law was elected a Senator. How would a person who is fond of BREAKING THE RULE OF LAW would be in the HALLS where they MAKE THE LAW (that he broke in the first place, quite an irony I should say). I don’t understand why the Gov’t went soft on them. In other countries, they would have met a fate of a FIRING SQUAD (no questions asked).

karah on Sun, 7th Oct 2007 1:44 pm

cvj Marcos did great things (as well as really GREAT AWFUL THINGS) for the Philippines and this is a historical fact. At that time, either Sen. Ninoy was a lone voice in the forest or others just didn’t think that Marcos would eventually become a dictator (knowing how much support Macos has from Congress due to concessions).

REGRET is always in the end. In my own opinion, Marcos was a good leader but it was IMELDA who dragged him down. In every man’s success, is a woman behind him. In every man’s blunder, is a woman behind him as well. Only if the “GIVING UP OF FREEDOMS” at that time lead into what Malaysia and Singapore have become, the Philippines would have been an ECONOMIC POWER OF ASIA until today. But then again, it’s not good to dwell on spilled milk.

Public Accountability, Honesty, Transparency, and Good Governance should always be demanded of the Public Officials. For many Filipinos, their duty BEGINS and ENDS in the Elections – NOT SO. It BEGINS in the ELECTIONS and it becomes a CONTINUUM and ENDS the next Election then the cycle comes back again.

cvj on Sun, 7th Oct 2007 2:07 pm

Karah, what’s the use if Marcos did ‘great things’ (i’m interested in what you think these are) if, as you say, he did really great awful things? As for Imelda, she has her faults, but she’s a red herring. Marcos stands or falls on his own. Yes, regret is always the end but fortunately today, we have the benefit of hindsight. Unfortunately, the Upper and middle classes today are making the same mistakes that their fathers/mothers committed in 1972.

In the case of Singapore, as i told Ramrod before, their model is not applicable to us because Lee Kuan Yew did not have to contend with an oligarchy. In the case of Malaysia, although Mahathir was a strong leader, i’m not exactly sure if you can classify that as a dictatorship. Maybe you can consider it as a sort of dictatorship of the majority since they’ve always had the UMNO (i.e. the Malay dominated party) in power. However, in both cases, it was not ‘giving up freedoms’ per se that caused both countries to prosper. Rather, it was the pursuit of sound policies.

karah on Sun, 7th Oct 2007 2:44 pm

cvj Marcos is not a good person through and through as well as Marcos is not bad through and through. I think this is very clear. Let us not make it EITHER or because that we would lose the point of it all. The Marcos years brought about rapid Infrastructure from North to South (a feat that no Philippine President after Marcos was able to accomplish). It is very relevant to note that MANY OF THE LAWS THAT MARCOS wrote are still in force and in effect until today. His strong ties with the USA, made him build more schools and hospitals than all the the preceding Presidents (ALL COMBINED). Although at the latter of his Presidency (when he was already sickly and mostly his lieutenants that’s running the country), before that the STRONG ECONOMY of the Philippines is hard to dispel.

The Philippine Heart Center, The Philippine Children’s Medical Center, The National Kidney and Transplant Institute, and The Lung Center of the Philippines? Who pushed for these specialty hospitals that up to now help thousands, if not helped hundreds of thousands of Filipinos until today. How about CCP?

The UPPER CLASS (the elite) and the MIDDLE CLASS does not commit the same mistakes. It’s just that the UPPER CLASS would always look after their own INTERESTS – Business, Landholdings, what have you. The middle class has always been known to move at the homestretch but you can’t expect them to be politically active all the time.

I did not mean to say a CARBON COPY of that Singapore Phenomenon and the Malaysia Phenomenon. So, do you mean to say that during the MARCOS REGIME, there weren’t no SOUND POLICIES? So why then most of the (thousands) of Proclamations, Executive Orders, and Decrees are still being used by the Philippines? Tell me.

I think the question is not that the Singapore and Malaysia model is not applicable or not, it’s the question of, what if MARCOS did good and didn’t plunder the Nation? What I mean is, emulate those aspects that is applicable and innovate other models that’s good for the country.

Harry on Sun, 7th Oct 2007 2:49 pm

karah:

ouch! so what is it you like about the physical appearance of trillanes, huh?

harry c

karah on Sun, 7th Oct 2007 2:51 pm

I have an impression that he’s a manly guy – the way he speaks, the way he acts.

hvrds on Sun, 7th Oct 2007 3:01 pm

“re: imperial manila. donâ€™t forget that because of migration, since the end of ww2 a large percentage, even possibly a majority of those living here are non-tagalogs. it is a melting pot.”

“note as well, that more people live in urban areas now, than in rural areas, overall percentage wise if im not mistaken. while each city is unique it will lead to more city-like behavior, more city-like thinking: the gulf in political attitudes between manila and other urban centers will therefore shrink.”

Re: domestic migration and the line between rural and urban areas. To properly appreciate the economic conditions of the country as a whole, a system of measuring value added per hectare is one way of measuring where most people in the country are living off from. The Philippines is far from being an urbanized society. The majority 70%+ of the population still live off the land and the seas.

For example over 50% of the labor value (GNI/GNP) added on the national economy comes from the NCR, Southern Tagalog and Central Luzon. The NCR contributes approximately 35% with a population of 15% of the total. Now to get the population or labor value added per hectare if there are accurate figures for the land area of what comprises the NCR one would see the difference between the NCR and Southern Tagalog with a much lower population and lower labor value added and a larger land area.

To give everyone an extreme example is the city state of Singapore. Pop. 4M + Land Area:
total: 692.7 sq km
water: 10 sq km
land: 682.7 sq km

to the Philippines with Pop. 85M + Land Area:
total: 300,000 sq km
water: 1,830 sq km
land: 298,170 sq km

GNI/GNP of Singapore is more or less equal to the entire Philippines

The size alone of Metro Manila is equal to Singapore.
636 sq. KM. Less than 1 % of the total land area with almost 35% of the domestic economy and apporximately 15% of total population. (Production and consumption.)

The Ca t on Sun, 7th Oct 2007 3:08 pm

Being a mere Lieutenant, why is that he has Pajero and Nissan Patrol at his disposal. He might reason out that his parents are rich but isnâ€™t that doubtful is a sense that heâ€™s a Military Officer and not a Private Citizen?

Karah,

This was his explanation for the fleet of Pajero that the family owned. They put up a research company where he is a part-time Treasurer. hohoho. The laugh is more on the statement that this job occupied most of his time.

Being in the research business,I could not understand the need for 6 Pajeros. Researchers do not use Pajeros.

Most of the field researchers doing the survey and data gathering are on a per project basis.

The assets carried in the balance sheet of a business depend on its nature of business. If you are in a manufacturing or trading, I do not expect to see assets such as apartment units and buildings for rent. Those apply more for property management and real estate companies.

Did he really receive 100 million? If he did, that explains why he won the election. It is a public knowledge that to win a national election, you should have millions. Several millions.

cvj on Sun, 7th Oct 2007 6:24 pm

Karah, we are of the same understanding that Marcos is not all good or all bad, but isn’t that a motherhood statement applicable to most of us? What matters is that as a leader, he wasted his opportunity as President, especially given all the talents that he had. Given his length of stay in office, it is just to be expected for him to have made all those laws
and built all those infrastructure from the people’s money. What is inexcusable (of him or any other leader) is his using a portion of those funds to enrich himself and his cronies. His contemporaries transformed their respective countries into newly industrializing economies while his rule resulted in economic collapse and left us with an enormous foreign debt. Blaming it on his lieutenants, or poor health (or Imelda) is not acceptable because it was Marcos himself who engineered his own prolonged stay in office via Martial Law.

The habit of looking only after their own interests is precisely one of those repeated mistakes by the Upper Class that i am pointing to. To the extent that their fortunes and position in life are protected, they do not care what happens to the rest of us Filipinos. As for the Middle Class, why shouldn’t we expect them to be politically engaged? Don’t they realize that our political leaders need to be constantly disciplined?

As i mentioned above, Marcos’ may have had some sound policies on paper but in the end, he was not able to implement them to benefit the Filipino people. For one thing, he had the most far reaching energy self-sufficiency policy, but we ended up with white elephants like the Bataan Nuclear Power Plant, which has never been used and which we are still paying for. Another promising policy he had was the 11 major industries initiative which also came to nothing because of cronyism. Most damning of all is that he declared Martial Law on the promise of a ‘revolution from above’, to get rid of the oligarchs. He ended up enabling his own set of oligarchs. All those thousands of Proclamations, EO’s and Decrees do not compensate for his failure to deliver given the time he had.

I agree with you that we should emulate those aspects from the past (even during Marcos’ time) as well as other countries (including Singapore and Malaysia) that have worked. Where i disagree with you is on whether ‘giving up our freedoms’ is one of those aspects that we should emulate.

karah on Sun, 7th Oct 2007 7:26 pm

The Ca t Republic Act 6713 (An Act Establishing a Code of Conduct and Ethical Standards for Public Officials and Employees, to Uphold the Time-Honored Principle of Public Service Being a Public Trust, Granting Incentives and Rewards for Exemplary Service, Enumerating Prohibited Acts and Transactions and Providing Penalties for Violations thereof and for Other Purposes).

Section 3. Definition of Terms:

PUBLIC OFFICIALS – includes elective and appointive officials and employees, permanent of termporary, whehter in the career or non-carrer service, INCLUDING MILITARY and POLICE PERSONNEL, whether or not they receive compensation, regardless of amount.

CONFLICT OF INTEREST – arises when a public official or employee is a member of a board, an officer (TREASURER), or a substantial stockholder of a private corporation or owner or has substantial interest in a business, and the interest of such corporation or business, or his rights or duties therein, may be opposed to our affected by the faithful performance of official duty.

Section 4. Norms of Conduct of Public Officials and Employees.

SIMPLE LIVING – Public officials and employees and their families shall lead modest lives appropriate to their positions and income. They shall not indulge in extravagant or estentatious display of wealth in any form.

I don’t know why these things did not surface before the elections.

karah on Sun, 7th Oct 2007 7:49 pm

cvj Exactly, the very reason for my statement was to point out the fact that although a lot of people are mad at Marcos, let’s not demonize him. We can only dissect his actions inasmuch as we are critiques but let’s not play God on judging him like we know him personally. I just want to be as objective as I can given the “sentiments that comes into play” when the name Marcos crops up.

True, his was on the whole, a WASTED PRESIDENCY. Let’s just give credit where credit is due. Let us not always focus on the “personality” involved rather on the other realm, what he has done during his term. So tell me, after Marcos, who among the succeeding Presidents put real focus on INFRASTUCTURE and HEALTH as much as Marcos did?

Precisely, the Marcos CRONIES are partly to blame on a larger scale because whether we like it or not, Marcos listens to some of his Cronies and take their suggestions seriously (that is, how to amass more money). Marcos is not the SOLE PERSON to BLAME but a multitude of other personalities (others even became herous during EDSA 1). As I’ve said, let’s not dwell on spilled milk because we cannot change time, we cannot undo time. What we should focus on is how the lessons of the past could be applied for the betterment of the future.

Who does not have as SELF-INTEREST their primary objective in life? This is what the UPPER CLASS has been doing time and again, generation after generation. We are after all a democratic country, not even in Communist countries, the higher echelos of the Party are considered the UPPER CLASS in a democratic country. The job of the government is to foster an environment wherein there are more opportunities for the poor and the middles classes to uplift their lives. Just like in Western countries (first world, that is), the UPPER CLASS look after its own interests but the Government makes it a point that those below the food chain are given all the necessary tools to improve their standard of living (a case which we do not have in the Philippines).

Based on my inferences, it’s not that easy to be politically active. People also have their own personal lives to live, their own work to attend to, their own families to feed, their own leisure to have. I would want to see a middle class that’s more socially and politically active but it’s their choice not ours to make.

We should treat POLICIES per se. The sphere of IMPLEMENTATION is another matter. The Philippines has some of the best laws in the world yet the problem would always lie in the IMPLEMENTATION – this is true not only during the time of Marcos but up until today. You can say that the “implementation” is a conditio sine qua non with reference to Policy but I’ll be interested to know what POLICY that a Philippine President (after Marcos) pushed forward that actually saw the LIGHT OF DAY in terms of implementaion without stumbling blocks? Have any ideas?

Talking about NUCLEAR, you may call it an advocacy but, a Nuclear Philippines would solve our woes. The problem is not only about TECHNOLOGY but the TECHNICAL KNOW-HOW. These types of industry needs decades and decades of hardwork. Those thousands of EO’s Proclamations, and Decrees are still useful today so don’t blame these policies because of its Author.

Honestly, I can give up certain freedoms for the sake of stability and prosperity. I agree on curfews. I agree on a National ID System. I agree on certain limitations to Media. I agree strict implemenation of laws. Even these FREEDOMS are not absolute – they are limited as far as these freedoms does not infringe on other freedoms.

vic on Sun, 7th Oct 2007 7:51 pm

karah, In hindsight Marcos was both Good and Bad. And your analysis of his regime is right on the money, except of course that I won’t him let get off even for one serious sin unbecoming a Top Leader of the Land. If you take a look at other country, specifically the U.S., Nixon was also a Good President, before watergate blew up in his face. He opened the U.S. to China and thereby precipitate the fall of the “cruel” regime of that era and open China and the Chinese to the economic growth we are witnessing now. He also brought the boys home from Vietnam, ending one of the Black Dots of U.S. history. But now, most will remember him for that singular sin that he committed. And Marcos had a lot.

ramrod on Sun, 7th Oct 2007 10:03 pm

In my book, all the presidents we ever had, and yes even GMA now have their good and bad sides. And no matter what anyone says, these individuals are geniuses, if we base the achievement of this title on very measurable terms “achievement.” Until anyone of us can claim the presidency, we can’t say otherwise as no one can argue with success.
Each one of them has stamped their legacy in the country’s history and deserve a certain degree of respect as this is probably one of the most difficult country to run. If we continue on this myopic view that GMA is the root of all evil we will miss seeing the big picture as she is not. The person occupying the highest position in the land is not the most powerful person in the land – he/she is just a pawn in the greater scheme of things. There are hidden hands whose influence, both subtle and overt affects the formation of policy and the implimentation thereof. Their power is measurable in the billions. Regimes rise and fall to serve the interest of these powerful neooverlords. As someone once said “follow the money.”

ramrod on Sun, 7th Oct 2007 10:16 pm

Karah,

Although I agree with you on most issues, I really think you’re a bit unfair on Trillanes. Don’t get me wrong I don’t particularly like the guy, and at times he doesn’t think before he speaks but unless you actually talk to the person, get to know him up front like MLQ3 did, its too early to make judgements. The fact that he comes from La Salle or from a well to do family does not make him one of the bad guys and integrity is not a monopoly of the poor. The pajeros? Who knows, they could have bought them on wholesale? But then again I might be wrong, personally there’s something about him that makes me uneasy, maybe envy, he’s the type that always gets the girls. “GRRRRRRRR!”

karah on Sun, 7th Oct 2007 10:24 pm

Ram I merely pointed out some “allegations” that should be looked into. Talking with the guy does not make him clean either. A mere face to face is yes, a good start in knowing how a person behaves and acts but it’s not a gauge of knowing who the person really is.

I really don’t care whether he’s from La Salle of he came from a well to do family or what not. What’s alarming with me is that he portrays himself as a simple guy who is a victim in all of these. We are talking here of background and comparing the background of GAMBALA vs. TRILLANES in terms of “princple and integrity,” I’d choose the former anytime.

Even buying Pajero in wholesale is not cheap. The time he opens his mouth, he stutters. I even like to see the showdown that Migz Zubiri promised if he and Trillanes see in the Senate.

If you said: “grrrrrrrr.” I say: “arrfffff.”

cvj on Sun, 7th Oct 2007 10:36 pm

Karah, i’m glad you agree with me that his was a wasted Presidency. No one is arguing that Marcos was the sole person to blame but, after all, he took it upon himself to be dictator. The importance of evaluating and judging him (and others around him) is precisely because we need to derive lessons from the past so the it can be, as you say, “applied for the betterment of the future“. Unfortunately, God does not directly participate in his discussions so, for now, we have to do the judging ourselves.

While everyone is entitled to a certain amount of self-interest, everyone also has a responsibility towards his fellowmen. Try to google ‘Social Capital’ to see why everyone pursuing his/her own self-interest, especially when it comes to the commons is not good for society. The Filipino Upper Class has pursued its self-interests at the expense of the rest of the Filipino people. As you already pointed out, blame for the debacle during the Marcos era does not go to Marcos alone but also to his Cronies (who are members of the upper class). Even today, you can see the members of the Upper Class conspiring with government officials for example, on the National Broadband Network. That loan from China would have eventually been paid for by the Filipino taxpayer.

On the level of motherhood, no one can argue against the mission of government being to provide an environment for the poor and middle class to “uplift their lives“. However, in practice, this often meant clearing away the obstacles for such advancement. In our neighboring countries for example (e.g. Japan, Korea and Taiwan), their respective governments had to implement land reform to address the issue of inequality. By contrast, our government is content to rely on trickle down policies.

I don’t agree with considering policies separate from its implementation. Any President (or leader) is judged by effectiveness in delivering on policies, not in policy-making alone or implementation alone.

I’m ok for you to give up your freedoms as long as it’s only your own freedoms that you are giving up, not anyone else’s.

bibeth on Sun, 7th Oct 2007 10:44 pm

[b][i]“REBEL SOLDIERS. Itâ€™s a good thing I did not become a MAN. If was male, I would have entered the PMA and became a soldier. If I was the Field Commander at the time the Magdalo Group tookover the Oakwood Suites (together with it the whole Glorietta Mall and surroundings Commercial and Business Areas), I would have APPROVED A SIEGE – force for force. What happened became an AWFUL PREDECENT. Yes, they crushed it but what would prevent the next generation to state such an act and in the end would be accorded DUE PROCESS? The Govâ€™t should have taken this situation with an IRON HAND – kill them all. I bet nobody and I mean nobody would DARE stage another COUP, another MUTINY, another REBELLION even again from the ranks of the AFP, even the PNP.

Whatâ€™s more damning is that one of the leaders of this reprehensible deviation from the Constitution and the Rule of Law was elected a Senator. How would a person who is fond of BREAKING THE RULE OF LAW would be in the HALLS where they MAKE THE LAW (that he broke in the first place, quite an irony I should say). I donâ€™t understand why the Govâ€™t went soft on them. In other countries, they would have met a fate of a FIRING SQUAD (no questions asked).” [/b][/i]

karah… you’re so brutal! hahahahahahaha

ramrod on Sun, 7th Oct 2007 10:46 pm

“Re: REBEL SOLDIERS. Itâ€™s a good thing I did not become a MAN. If was male, I would have entered the PMA and became a soldier. If I was the Field Commander at the time the Magdalo Group tookover the Oakwood Suites (together with it the whole Glorietta Mall and surroundings Commercial and Business Areas), I would have APPROVED A SIEGE – force for force. What happened became an AWFUL PREDECENT. Yes, they crushed it but what would prevent the next generation to state such an act and in the end would be accorded DUE PROCESS? The Govâ€™t should have taken this situation with an IRON HAND – kill them all. I bet nobody and I mean nobody would DARE stage another COUP, another MUTINY, another REBELLION even again from the ranks of the AFP, even the PNP.” – Karah

I agree. This was a mistake, perhaps. But if you ever had the (mis)fortune of joining the ranks of the long gray line you will look at it differently, that I’m willing to bet GMA’s life on. As I said before, the lowly foot soldier still cooks his own food on stones and firewood, consisting of a nutritious delicacy of rice and dried fish, and, if their lucky – they have sardines. They go about the barracks and do their patrolling (both combat and recon) in tattered boots and uniforms. During one of their patrols they encounter enemy fire, they should not be afraid because they have their gear on but no, bullets shatter through their kevlar headgears as if they were wearing bandanas “haaay!” and when they return fire they can’t, their WWII M1 garands and sophisticated M16s don’t fire (now as a firing enthusiast I know firsthand this is very frustrating), not to mention their vaunted secret weapon of mass destruction – the mortars behave like large metal iron pipes no different from the plumbing at home. To top that off, they call for air support but they don’t get any because there was nobody to sign the papers to authorize it, probably somewhere playing golf. Now you tell me, if you were the platoon leader of these men, won’t you think of bringing a tank to the capital and blasting the house of the logistics officer to kingdom come? The Oakwood mutiny was a mistake in my book, it was too amateurish, these guys actually thought they could come together and address their grievances to the government, they were too naive perhaps. I belong to the capitalist side of the fence now and I don’t have to give a rat’s ass what happens around here just as long as I make money. I’m probably crazy, why care at all?
Here’s one thing I promise you. If ever in your capacity you are able to convince the powers that be to look into this logistics issue, benefits and compensation issue, family support, and healthcare of these soldiers and do something satisfactory about it – I will treat you to any hotel restaurant of your choice every month for the rest of my life even risking my life that I will be shot by my wife for doing so.

bibeth on Sun, 7th Oct 2007 10:50 pm

karah :
“I have an impression that heâ€™s a manly guy – the way he speaks, the way he acts.”

Hmmmmm…I thought you only like Noli, never thought you also have a crush on Trillanes :-O

karah on Sun, 7th Oct 2007 10:58 pm

cvj Who said that Marcos was not a “wasted Presidency” anyway? So are you convinced that it was only SOLELY on Marcos’ decision that he became President and there was not external influence? (significant or insignificant it may be). Tell me. JUDGING the ACTIONS of Marcos, yes, NOT JUDGING HIM AS A PERSON per se. These are two very different things. Whether or not God is involved, he’s the only one to JUDGE A PERSON’S HEART, not us, never us because we are mere mortals like Marcos.

Let us analyze and dissect the ACTIONS and not the PERSON. Though it’s hard separate the ACTOR from the ACTION but I know you’re smart enough to understand what I’m talking and what I’m driving at.

No need to explore the IDEA on whether a person is entitled or not to self-interest. The point of the matter is, PEOPLE (no matter how good or bad a person is) HAVE THEIR OWN SELF-INTERESTS to FORWARD and in those terms, we can only speak for ourselves and not for others (not unless we know them personally and confided in us his/her true motives and agenda). Most of the time, the SELF-INTEREST is about MONEY, about POWER, about INFLUENCE and ramified into other areas of interest.

So, how do you propose we go about with the UPPER CLASS always pursuing their SELF-INTEREST. Can you do something about it? Can we do something about it? These are the more practical questions at hand. Although I am disgusted in all these things, I try and do my best to be a law-abiding citizen – diligently paying my share of the tax, making sure not to violate even simple rules, just being the best that I can be because I am limited to myself and my circle of influence.

Well, who else would have the RESOURCES (money) to embark on these Projects but the UPPER CLASS. The very reason that only 5% of the population controls 70%-80% of the wealth in the Philippines. How are the cases going by the way with reference to the ZTE-NBN deal?

What happened to LAND REFORM? What happened to AGRARIAN REFORM? Can you cite any past President that was successful in this regard? What needs to be done is to IMPLEMENT THE RULES, plain and simple. But why this simple thing is not done? It’s again because if VESTED INTERESTS in Haciendas, in Government Lots, in LGU (province, city, municipalty) Lots, and so on and so forth. How do we remedy the “self-interest” factor, I don’t know myself.

It’s like a CONTRACT. There’s a CONTRACT (the idea of policies), the PERFECTED CONTRACT (the existence of implementable policies) and the CONSUMMATED CONTRACT (the implementation of the policies. It’s a continuum but each entity would have it’s own intricacies and details that could be discussed separately. On the whole though, all of these are interconnected.

And who told you that I said it’s okay to give up the freedom of others. Mind you, I was referring to myself alone. To quote myself “Honestly, I can give up certain freedoms for the sake of stability and prosperity.” I think I said “I” referring to the first persone alone.

ramrod on Sun, 7th Oct 2007 11:01 pm

“to one whose father lost his life resisting the japs; whose only paternal uncle died with his boots on (or whatever was left of them) on the road to capas after fighting a heroic battle in bataan; whose cousin died in action in korea a year after graduating from pma; whose young brother in law (also a pma grad) is currently serving in mindanao; this rebellious adventurism for political ends is not easy to swallow.”-bencard

I suggest you talk to this PMA grad young brother in law in Mindanao, I have a suspicion that you have a communication gap, unless he is from logistics (stays in the office making money from corrupt deals with suppliers) he will “enlighten” you.

bibeth on Sun, 7th Oct 2007 11:04 pm

Trillanes is just a disgruntled big mouth who is trying to mask his treachery (attempting a mutiny, either voluntarily or paid by some people, or motivated by any cause is TREACHERY or TREASON) by pretending to be in the crusade for clean, honest and transparent government. He is trying to masquerade as a seeker of truth and justice in order to divert the attention from the truth that he was paid by a rich politician to do the oakwood mutiny. Any fool would know that if there are only a few of you, you can’t possibly win a mutiny, didn’t they teach that at PMA?

If Trillanes want tranparency, then why didn’t he mention they were involved in the supply of materials to the AFP?

His election as Senator is a total disaster and shame for the country.

He would end up as someone who made lots of promises but never kept any of them.

Note: For the last time is BIBETH, not BIBITH.

ramrod on Sun, 7th Oct 2007 11:05 pm

“What happened to LAND REFORM? What happened to AGRARIAN REFORM? Can you cite any past President that was successful in this regard?” – Karah

Precisely. Cvj explained it in his “landed oligarchs” that more or less high positions in government. All policies and implmentation thereof will be influenced to inoder to protect and promote the interest of this few.

ramrod on Sun, 7th Oct 2007 11:08 pm

“And who told you that I said itâ€™s okay to give up the freedom of others. Mind you, I was referring to myself alone. To quote myself â€œHonestly, I can give up certain freedoms for the sake of stability and prosperity.â€ I think I said â€œIâ€ referring to the first persone alone.”-karah

No. Make that two. I don’t want you to be alone, I’m with you on this.

ramrod on Sun, 7th Oct 2007 11:10 pm

“Follow the money!!!” It leads to…

bibeth on Sun, 7th Oct 2007 11:16 pm

karah,

I suggest you invite more of our silent majority friends and those from the LF.

They would love to disseminate useful info in here. Obviously some here are poorly informed about some issues and personalities.

The more the merrier….hahahahaha

karah on Sun, 7th Oct 2007 11:19 pm

Ram No amount of reason can cover-up for a mistake if we’re talking here of “military action.” If they succeeded which I doubted from the first instant I heard the news, things I would have been totally different. In retrospect, why choose Oakwood and the CBD (central business district) of Makati? The problem is after all an AFP problem. They would have stormed Camp Aguinaldo whilst most of the Generals of the Armed Services and other National Support Units are present. I think that was a BOLDER, a more DIRECT way of airing their grievances. When they took over Oakwood, imagine the jitters not only of the Business and International Community but those innocent people who are in the surrounding area who just wanted to get to work and earn a living.

What were their real motives? Was it only to air their GRIEVANCES or something else? There are some questions we should ask not only the Magdalo but ourselves. My heart goes to all the soldiers who are dying, and who are injured for us to enjoy whatever freedoms we are enjoying at the moment. I do recognize the LOGISTICAL LOOPHOLE that has beset the whole AFP since time immemorial (not only the AFP but the PNP). And come to think of it, those who staged the Oakwood Mutiny (at least majority of them), did not come from ordinary platoons but most of them came of Special Units where were considered, “the spoiled brats” of their Armed Service – some of the LRC (Light Reaction Company), some were from the Scout Rangers, some were from the Special Forces.

Makes me think. Did you see any Oakwood Mutineer with dilapidated shoes? Did you see any Oakwood Mutineer carrying a rusting Gun? Did you see any Oakwood Mutinner wearing Uniform with holes? Did you see any Oakwood Mutineer even carrying worn-out Bags? By the looks of it, they were armed to the teeth with M4-variation Carbines, some M-16’s, some other automatic weapons. They were wearing the same camouflage uniform, new shoes, new Motorola Two-Way Radios, new backpacks. Now, where did they get these things? Hmmmm.

I understand and I perfectly comprehend some of the points that you raised – Substandard Kevlar Helmets, Non-working Guns, Non-Working Mortars, poor Communication Equipment, poor Air Support. They should have stormed the Villamor Air Base Golf Course for all I care and HOSTAGED all the Officers playing golf and sipping drinks (whatever it is they are sipping)? Again, I pose the question, why Makati?

karah on Sun, 7th Oct 2007 11:20 pm

Ram My response to you is still awaiting moderation.

bibeth on Sun, 7th Oct 2007 11:21 pm

And who told you that I said itâ€™s okay to give up the freedom of others. Mind you, I was referring to myself alone. To quote myself â€œHonestly, I can give up certain freedoms for the sake of stability and prosperity.â€ I think I said â€œIâ€ referring to the first persone alone.â€-karah

No. Make that three. I donâ€™t want you to be alone, Iâ€™m with you on this.

Harry on Sun, 7th Oct 2007 11:24 pm

i don’t wanna be counted out. make me the fourth in the list.

harry c

ramrod on Sun, 7th Oct 2007 11:25 pm

“His election as Senator is a total disaster and shame for the country.”-bibeth

How many people voted for Trillanes, hundreds, thousands, no, over a million, no, more than a million, millions! We have over 10 million stupid people who voted for Trillanes! These include my former boss who owns the biggest industrial packaging printer in the country, hmmmmm, and so did many of my chinese clients, add MLQ3 to this moronic list also. Actually I didn’t vote for him, I wanted Mike Defensor, what can I do I like the guy, in the face of so much unpopularity – he stood his ground. My point is, if it boils down to how many people thought about it, analyzed it, evaluated it, a lot of extremely sensible people voted for Trillanes and this is not because he looked good on TV. Pause for a while, there must be some wisdom in all this. Hmmmmm…Tabasco sauce on spam…

ramrod on Sun, 7th Oct 2007 11:29 pm

“Expecto Patronum!”

Harry, I’m sure you have an ulterior motive again.

bibeth on Sun, 7th Oct 2007 11:34 pm

ramrod,

It just reflects how many voters lack the basic knowledge when it comes to selection of candidates. many find those who criticize the administration as “witty and courageous”

Trillanes had no clear program of government, their group (the Genuine Opposition) had only the poorly written so-called 10-point program. he just kept on lambasting the Arroyo administration. Sadly that was enough to land him a seat in the Senate.

ramrod on Sun, 7th Oct 2007 11:37 pm

This sinfully pleasurable pastime of ours is making me irresponsible, I wasn’t able to make my expense report, I was planning to finish it over the weekend. You guys make life worthwhile, not just work, work, work…

All this opposing and agreeing is making me feel alive again. Thank you very much for the pleasure of all our exchanges, I may have to sign out for a few days as I need to focus on business.

Bencard. Please accept my apologies if I offended you, its nothing personal. Sometimes I’m a jerk, I need help. I’m really sorry for the times I slipped up. No excuses, a jerk’s a jerk…

Harry on Sun, 7th Oct 2007 11:38 pm

ramrod:

the motive is ulterior and the agenda is hidden. *smirk* i am serious on the matter that i can give up certain freedoms for the state

what’s up?

harry c

cvj on Sun, 7th Oct 2007 11:38 pm

So are you convinced that it was only SOLELY on Marcosâ€™ decision that he became President and there was not external influence? – karah

I did not say that. In fact, Marcos became President because people elected him in 1965 and 1969. He became dictator in 1972 because people were willing to give up their freedoms for some order.

Your distinction between judging Marcos’ actions and judging him as a person is quibbling and artificial. In everyday life, we make such judgements all the time.

You are also right that there is little that we can do in this situation where the Upper Class pursues their own self-interest at the expense of the rest of the Filipino people. At some point, when enough people are aware, maybe the balance will shift so the first step is to be aware of what’s happening. It starts with the mindset.

Well, who else would have the RESOURCES (money) to embark on these Projects but the UPPER CLASS.

If you review what they tried to do, you will see that the upper class did not intend to use their own resources. Rather, they intended to borrow money from China. As i said above, that loan will be paid for by the Filipino taxpayers. That’s one of the reasons why, as you point out “only 5% of the population controls 70%-80% of the wealth in the Philippines“.

ramrod on Sun, 7th Oct 2007 11:42 pm

I agree with you on the GO agenda, all I understood about it was just “OUST GMA!”

But for the people who voted for him, they probably thought we needed a fresh face in the senate, not a trapo, or whatever. Trillanes came out as a very “uncompromising” person, and uncompromising men are very charismatic…I would have voted for him if he didn’t make me envy him, all those girls. GRRRRRRRR!

ramrod on Sun, 7th Oct 2007 11:44 pm

“If you review what they tried to do, you will see that the upper class did not intend to use their own resources. Rather, they intended to borrow money from China. As i said above, that loan will be paid for by the Filipino taxpayers. Thatâ€™s one of the reasons why, as you point out â€œonly 5% of the population controls 70%-80% of the wealth in the Philippinesâ€œ.” – cvj

cvj, thats how the financially savy do it, use “other peoples’ money,” Investment 101…

ramrod on Sun, 7th Oct 2007 11:51 pm

harry,

Good to see you again (or read)! You should have joined me “firing” if you’re in Manila, yesterday. I’ve improved, in 50 rounds only 1 didn’t hit the target at 15 meters. But then again I used a 9mm, very manageable compared to the Cal 45. I am officially not a “Bolo Man” anymore, thats what they call you if the only way you can wound or kill your enemy is for the corps to issue you a “bolo” and not a gun.

Manila Bay Watch on Sun, 7th Oct 2007 11:51 pm

Bencard,

Re: “mwb, thanks for your effort in posting the accused magdalo rebelsâ€™ statement. frankly, it earns no sympathy nor respect for their â€œcauseâ€ from me. ”

The statement was not at all by the Magadalo troops, i.e., Trillanes et al, but by a group of officers led by Gen Danilo Lim and Col Ariel Querubin and suprisingly, the group includes very young officers including the former aide de camp or executive asst of Gen Esperon himself – they’re accused of mutiny and of plotting a coup d’Ã©tat prompting Gloria to declare emergency rule in February last year; they are subjects of court martial proceedings today.

For your info: JAG office pre-trial investigations and the recommendations that followed stated that there wasn’t any sufficient evidence to indict the 28 officers for mutiny or coup d’Ã©tat attemtp; JAG himself recommended that those charges should be dropped but Esperon said otherwise.

Question: If your own ivenstigators, prosecutors, OJAG in this case, find that there’s no evidence of military crime, why insist on prosecuting Gen Lim et al? At worst, they can only be accused of conduct unbecoming an officer.

I suggest you read the initial OJAG PTI report (I believe it’s stored somewhere in Ellen’s blog.)

From my end, Gen Lim cannot be accused of mutiny when he talked to Gen Senga since he was alone with him (Senga himself said so) about the restiveness in the military, and this happened the day before Gloria declared her emergency rule. Lim is accused of mutiny or mutiny cannot be committed by only 1 person. The crime of mutiny may be levied if the act was committed by 3 or more people. If mutiny cannot be proven to have been committed by these officers, it makes it unlikely that they attemted a coup d’Ã©tat.

Re Trillanes: Must confess I had great reservation about Trillanes (cvj can attest to that) and still do today but when he ran for office, I said to myself why not, good way of knowing if people approve of him or not. He was plebiscited by more than 11 million voters.

Govt was wrong to have reneged on the agreement, the promise that in exchange for their surrender, they would be charged under Articles of War i.e., military law, court martial, and not hauled off to civilian courts by Gonzalez (the doj gonzalez), but instead of a court martial, they were hauled off to civilian courts.

cvj on Sun, 7th Oct 2007 11:52 pm

ramrod, yeah only in this case, it’s the taxpayer’s money. That’s how the Upper Class pursues their interest at our expense.

karah on Sun, 7th Oct 2007 11:52 pm

cvj And so it can be deduced that without the consent of the people that they were willing to give up certain freedoms, “Marcos did not become a Dictator?” Just basing my assumption from your statement. Or shall we say, the “consent of the people was an aggravating factor?”

If you do such judgments, well I don’t. I divorce the ACTION from the ACTOR but don’t lose the combination of that altogether. At least you can speak for yourself, not for other people, can’t you?

By the looks of it, the BALANCE hasn’t shifted in like 500 years or so? It’s still the RULING ELITE that control the Philippines? So when do you think is this: “when enough people are aware?” Do you have any estimates perhaps? We will go back again to the attitude of Filipinos re: these matters.

The meddling of the UPPER CLASS in the NBN-ZTE deal was limited to two things: (a) getting kickbacks as commission for brokering; (b) if the AHI (Amsterdam Holdings. Inc.) bagged the Project, then it would be funded by both UPPER CLASS money, Loans, and other sources. The NBN-ZTE deal per se was a G to G agreement and so the UPPER CLASS did not have any exposure, did not have any participation (not unless there are some Filipino agents by the ZTE in the Philippines that comes from the Elite). Know anything about that?

By the way, it’s not the UPPER CLASS that would borrow money from CHINA, it’s the Philippine Gov’t thru a Loan Agreement between the DOF (Deparment of Finance) and the Chinese EXIM (export-import) bank. You got your assumptions wrong.

Manila Bay Watch on Sun, 7th Oct 2007 11:54 pm

bibeth on Sun, 7th Oct 2007 11:54 pm

karah,

it seems this blog is having second thoughts whether to post your reply to ram or not.

By the way, I have plenty of Boy Bawang here, i can bring a boxful to you if you like.

Harry on Sun, 7th Oct 2007 11:59 pm

ramrod:

not much into guns. used to like super 38 for its stability but gave it up. now my weapon of choice is my slippers. lolz

harry c

ramrod on Sun, 7th Oct 2007 11:59 pm

MBW,

The majority of the military with the exception of the ones in cahoots with the corrupt elements of the government are restive. Its been debated and discussed in restaurants, hotels, clubs, resorts, and safehouses, not in the offices because of the squeelers. Its a groundswell, one that is even now threatening to explode, unfortunately or fortunately, there are still these old and wise conservatives who are continously pacifying and calling for sobriety and respect for the chain of command.

Harry on Mon, 8th Oct 2007 12:00 am

ramrod:

my shoes weighs 250kgs. *smirk*

harry c

Manila Bay Watch on Mon, 8th Oct 2007 12:10 am

Ramrod,

Agree, “Its a groundswell, one that is even now threatening to explode, unfortunately or fortunately, there are still these old and wise conservatives”.

The AFP is at a terrible crossroad today, the morale of the officers, particularly in the middle level and below including the ordinary troops, is very low.

Ramrod, you must know Boygee Pangilinan, “the terror of generals” very well then (your upperclassman?).

ramrod on Mon, 8th Oct 2007 12:10 am

harry,

You wouldn’t happen to be an elephant are you? Type : ) without any spaces like this karah taught me that! selos ka?

cvj on Mon, 8th Oct 2007 12:16 am

cvj And so it can be deduced that without the consent of the people that they were willing to give up certain freedoms, â€œMarcos did not become a Dictator?â€ Just basing my assumption from your statement. Or shall we say, the â€œconsent of the people was an aggravating factor?â€ – Karah

Yes, consent of the people was needed for Marcos to get away with what he did. That’s the reason why i said above (at October 7, 2:07pm) that “Unfortunately, the Upper and middle classes today are making the same mistakes that their fathers/mothers committed in 1972.” In this thread alone, i can count four people (so far) making that same mistake right now.

By the looks of it, the BALANCE hasnâ€™t shifted in like 500 years or so? – Karah

Five hundred years ago (that would make it 1507), there was no Philippines yet so i’m not sure why you started counting from there. Anyway, i don’t know when ‘enough people will be aware’, all i know is that i am.

By the way, itâ€™s not the UPPER CLASS that would borrow money from CHINA, itâ€™s the Philippine Govâ€™t thru a Loan Agreement between the DOF (Deparment of Finance) and the Chinese EXIM (export-import) bank. You got your assumptions wrong. – Karah

The personalities involved (in and out of government) belong to the upper class. If you follow the events closely, the distinction that you make between ‘the government’ and ‘the upper class’ is non-existent.

ramrod on Mon, 8th Oct 2007 12:17 am

mbw,

I’m pretty sure the Pangilinan I know is not yet a general, I’m not that old. So you have an idea how old/young I am. My mistahs include Caculitan, speaker of the marines, and Sermonia, you see these characters on TV, no one that visible,my class has been desimated because of deserters (like me) who joined the brave ranks of the “business” sector, OFW, PAGCOR, and some even in the US military.

ramrod on Mon, 8th Oct 2007 12:18 am

cvj, karah,

Just follow the money…it will lead to the hands that rock the cradle.

Manila Bay Watch on Mon, 8th Oct 2007 12:28 am

This pangilinan here should be making it to 1-star rank anythime now (he sought Gloria Arroyo personally to offer his services as early as 98 and thanks to his insistence, the AFP Counter Intel Service was revived by Abu a few days before the latter retired.

He’s definitely your upperclassman – can’t rememnber if 81 or 82 but he was a turnback.

Am saying he’s a terror for the generals because when he was exec asst to Gen Boy Enrile CSAFP 94 – 96 if my memory doesn’t fail me, he thought he was Enrile himself and used to “terrorize” generals.

ramrod on Mon, 8th Oct 2007 12:32 am

karah, bibeth, and harry

Giving up our freedoms ala “Singapore” like government is easy for us to say. Look at us, we’ve been here since Friday night, we have no life, we have no freedom even now. I’m even used to a dictatorship. “Give me freedom!” Let me at least go to ALCHEMY?! Cvj, by the way, that place is similar to MINISTRY OF SOUND.

cvj on Mon, 8th Oct 2007 12:38 am

ramrod, i went to the Ministry of Sound last year and was a bit disappointed. Their ‘retro’ room (a-la Studio 54) featured 70’s (not 80’s) music. The rest of the rooms are just featureless techno music and some newer music that do not have any melody. BTW, if you visit Singapore, check out Inc over at SwissHotel (in front of Raffles Hotel). They have a good Filipino band.

bibeth on Mon, 8th Oct 2007 12:39 am

ramrod

i’m busy watching karah’s video upload in YouTube

She’s performing an algorithm dance.. wearing a pumpkin headgear….hahahahaha

ramrod on Mon, 8th Oct 2007 12:39 am

mbw,

Hmmmmmm. So he’s with the dark side of the force, of which there are many. Lurking in every camp, quarters, barracks, and even outposts, these “intel” operatives may even be disguised as girlfriends and wives. For your information ‘81 and ‘82 are old, old guys. ‘86, ‘87, ‘88 are more of my upperclassmen, unfortunately most of these classes are not very controversial except for Cesar Mancao, John Campos (may he rest in peace) and his love affair with Rosebud.

karah on Mon, 8th Oct 2007 12:41 am

cvj Just because the OPINIONS of FOUR PEOPLE differ from your OPINION, does that make their opinion WRONG? And I didn’t know that you’re not only a “judge of marcos” rather you’re also a “judge of opinions.” Quite interesting and funny in my own estimation. Do you have the MONOPOLY of what’s RIGHT from WRONG? Please enlighten me.

So, where do we start counting then, Indulge me. It would be good if you tell me the exact Day, Month, and Year where we should start counting. So, you don’t know as well. I thought you knew.

There’s a distinction between a so-called GOVERNMENT-to-GOVERNMENT AGREEMENT and a Project undertaken by a PRIVATE ENTITY at the behest of the UPPER CLASS.

Is Upper Class = Government? No.
Is ZTE = Government? No.
Is Upper Class of the Philippines = Chinese Government? No.
Is Upper Class of the Philippines = ZTE? No.
What distinction do you still want?

ramrod on Mon, 8th Oct 2007 12:45 am

mbw,

Sorry, I almost forgot, Mr. Bacarro is one of them.

Harry on Mon, 8th Oct 2007 12:46 am

ramrod:

it’s a custom-made specialized shoes. those smileys look cool. jealous? of course not. seeing karah in here is enough for me. *wink*

harry c

ramrod on Mon, 8th Oct 2007 12:48 am

“Their â€˜retroâ€™ room (a-la Studio 54) featured 70â€™s (not 80â€™s) music. The rest of the rooms are just featureless techno music and some newer music that do not have any melody” – cvj

Thats why they all hauled me to “Crazy Horse,” which I got bored in. It doesn’t hold a candle to our own Pegasus or Classmate, not that I go to these places, I just heard about them.

Manila Bay Watch on Mon, 8th Oct 2007 12:48 am

Hahahah – MR Baccaro indeed!

Harry on Mon, 8th Oct 2007 12:50 am

“ramrod :

karah, bibeth, and harry

Giving up our freedoms ala â€œSingaporeâ€ like government is easy for us to say. Look at us, weâ€™ve been here since Friday night, we have no life, we have no freedom even now. Iâ€™m even used to a dictatorship. â€œGive me freedom!â€ Let me at least go to ALCHEMY?! Cvj, by the way, that place is similar to MINISTRY OF SOUND.”

i’m a simple man. i don’t need a lot of things and a lot of freedoms to be a good person.

harry c

bibeth on Mon, 8th Oct 2007 12:55 am

What good is lots of freedom when it plunges the nation into chaos, disarray and division

ramrod on Mon, 8th Oct 2007 12:57 am

mbw,

If you thought Trillanes and company were crazy, I tell you there’s this upperclassman of mine who actually drove a tank and parked it guns facing the front of city hall, because he had a tiff with the mayor (in the province). Of course, he got demoted, but at least he made the mayor pee in his pants.
This same guy stormed the Osmena mansion alone ala Rambo because he had a woman friend who was mistreated by Osmena (Emilio) not the lady ex senator. Good thing his platoon came to rescue him, he would have been minced meat to the solon’s private army.

cvj on Mon, 8th Oct 2007 1:00 am

karah, it is my opinion that your opinions are wrong. what’s wrong with saying that? given opposing positions, we can’t all be right.

I think we should start counting from the time that Filipino consciousness was formed around the last part of the 19th century. If i were to set a date, it would be when Father Gomez, Burgos and Zamora were executed.

The distinctions you make above are not relevant, because as i mentioned above, it is the personalities involved (whether in the business sector, or in government) who belong to the Upper Class.

karah on Mon, 8th Oct 2007 1:06 am

cvj Do you know how to respect the opinions of others or it’s just that wanna force your own opinion on other people? Which is which?

I though you would tell me the day, month, and year that as you say “the filipino consciousness started.” Teach me about history since you’re quite adept by the looks of it. I’m an avid learner. Do you mean to say that anything before that, “the filipino consciousness” was nowhere to be found?

My distinctions are my distinctions. Whether it’s right or wrong as stand by them. It’s as simple as that. Aside from the personalities involved, you should have also considered the ENTITIES INVOLVED since after all, we are talking here of PUBLIC/GOVERNMENT PROJECTS and not PERSONAL/PRIVATE PROJECTS.

bibeth on Mon, 8th Oct 2007 1:06 am

hmmmm… its getting more retro…

From Marcos…. now GomBurZa

No Magellan please

cvj on Mon, 8th Oct 2007 1:07 am

What good is lots of freedom when it plunges the nation into chaos, disarray and division – bibeth

Why do you assume that freedom will lead the nation into chaos and disarray? In our case, what is bringing us to chaos and disarray is the lack of respect by the Upper and Middle class for others’ rights, including voting rights.

cvj on Mon, 8th Oct 2007 1:09 am

bibeth, too late (or too early ). Karah went all the way back to 1507 (which is before Magellan).

bibeth on Mon, 8th Oct 2007 1:10 am

Do I smell some desperation in the air?

Googling is allowed….hahahahaha

Harry on Mon, 8th Oct 2007 1:18 am

poor father gomez
poor father burgos
poor father zamora

your names were dragged in here and yet the person doesn’t know when you died and became heroes

harry c

ramrod on Mon, 8th Oct 2007 1:19 am

“Makes me think. Did you see any Oakwood Mutineer with dilapidated shoes? Did you see any Oakwood Mutineer carrying a rusting Gun? Did you see any Oakwood Mutinner wearing Uniform with holes? Did you see any Oakwood Mutineer even carrying worn-out Bags? By the looks of it, they were armed to the teeth with M4-variation Carbines, some M-16â€™s, some other automatic weapons. They were wearing the same camouflage uniform, new shoes, new Motorola Two-Way Radios, new backpacks. Now, where did they get these things?”

You have to understand, they were going to Makati, to a nice hotel at that, they had to look their Sunday’s best.
As for the mutiny or whatever that was, I surprised myself. Its not the way I would stage a mutiny or a coup, a hotel is the least possible target. Come to think of it, even the “father” of mutineers Honasan was surprised by it (honestly) its not the way. So I had this impression that they were just doing a sit down strike or in this case “coffee in the hotel lobby” strike, with all those cameras, Karah, even you would put on your makeup and try to look good if you were them. It was not until Trillanes hooked up with Estrada that I…

cvj on Mon, 8th Oct 2007 1:19 am

cvj Do you know how to respect the opinions of others or itâ€™s just that wanna force your own opinion on other people? – Karah

No one (not even me) has a right to have the wrong opinion. You have to be able to justify and defend it. Of course, you (and me), have the right to free expression (unless of course you give it up as you seem to be willing to do).

Teach me about history since youâ€™re quite adept by the looks of it. Iâ€™m an avid learner. – Karah

That’s the right attitude. You see, it’s not just the masa that needs to be educated. The middle class (that means you and me) also need to be educated. Anyway, good thing Manolo is a historian so we both can learn from him.

ramrod on Mon, 8th Oct 2007 1:20 am

Karah,

You have to understand, they were going to Makati, to a nice hotel at that, they had to look their Sundayâ€™s best.
As for the mutiny or whatever that was, I surprised myself. Its not the way I would stage a mutiny or a coup, a hotel is the least possible target. Come to think of it, even the â€œfatherâ€ of mutineers Honasan was surprised by it (honestly) its not the way. So I had this impression that they were just doing a sit down strike or in this case â€œcoffee in the hotel lobbyâ€ strike, with all those cameras, Karah, even you would put on your makeup and try to look good if you were them. It was not until Trillanes hooked up with Estrada that Iâ€¦

bibeth on Mon, 8th Oct 2007 1:22 am

cvj,

Our country is in its present situation now because we have too much freedom.. and it is being ABUSED and MISUSED.

The communists are hiding behind the freedoms of speech and expression to do their destructive work. Conducting paralyzing ralies and strikes disguised as figthing for basic rights.

Power hungry people are using those freedom to create chaos and disrupt the normal operations of the government. And use it to try and grab power for themselves.

Congressmen and Senators also abuse freedom of speech by using it to get back at their personal and political opponents. Hurling nasty, and oftentimes unproven allegations during their “priviledged speeches” Nene Pimentel for example during the ZTE investigation brought out the “extramarital affairs” of Ben Abalos, which is totally irrelevant to the isuue being discussed. Pimentel did that because he was mad at Abalos for his son’s (Koko) failure to get into the senate.

The only freedom we should have is the freedom to crack jokes. Its the freedom I will fight for to the end… hahahahahahahaha

ramrod on Mon, 8th Oct 2007 1:23 am

karah,

Relax. Take it easy. Now even your smilies scare me. Sige ka, boys are afraid of feisty girls. If I had known earlier that my wife would be this feisty I would have run for the hills!

Bencard on Mon, 8th Oct 2007 1:30 am

ramrod, fwiw, my young, pma-grad brother in law is young in age but traditional in principles. he is a real soldier, a spartan, who knows the virtues of sacrifice, patience, loyalty, obedience, and respect for superiors. he is a protector, not only of his own families and loved ones, but his comrades in arms, fellow officers, and the nation in general.

he leaves politics to the politicians, except his right to vote; governing to the government; religion to the clergy; but most especialy, the rule of law to the courts of the land.

cvj on Mon, 8th Oct 2007 1:32 am

harry, you can google the date as good as me, but just to explain why i chose that particular event, here’s an excerpt from Mabini’s account of the Philippine Revolution:

The friars wanted to make an example of Burgos and his companions so that the Filipinos should be afraid to go against them from then on. But that patent injustice, that official crime, aroused not fear but hatred of the friars and of the regime that supported them, and a profound sympathy and sorrow for the victims. This sorrow worked a miracle: it made the Filipinos realize their condition for the first time. Conscious of pain, and thus conscious of life, they asked themselves what kind of a life they lived. The awakening was painful, and working to stay alive more painful still, but one must live. How? They did not know, and the desire to know, the anxiety to learn, overwhelmed and took possession of the youth of the Philippines. The curtain of ignorance woven diligently for centuries was rent at last: fiat lux, let there be light, would not be long in coming, the dawn of a new day was nearing.

Before that, there such consciousness did not exist in a significant enough level.

karah on Mon, 8th Oct 2007 1:33 am

cvj I don’t think you answered my question. DO YOU KNOW HOW TO RESPECT THE OPINIONS OF OTHERS? A simple YES or NO answer is quite hard to come by these days. And so? Don’t evade or skirt my quetions with your reasons. Even the FREEDOM OF EXPRESSION is not absolute and has its own limitations. Yes, I am willing to give

So, when did the FILIPINO CONSCIOUSNESS was formed? The day, month, and year please? You And please, don’t pass my question to Manolo. You’re a grown man, right? Sure, we all need to be educated, who doesn’t?

bibeth on Mon, 8th Oct 2007 1:36 am

ramrod,

They chose Oakwood to gather the maximum attention, not just locally but also internationally. And also to create an atmoshpere of fear and instability in the country’s main financial district.

Its not the mutineers who chose the venue, its the masterminds.

Harry on Mon, 8th Oct 2007 1:37 am

cvj:

how do you gauge the trend on filipino consciousness as you say from the time the gomburza fathers died up to the present? is this something quantifiable or just a vague idea of yours?

harry c

pete on Mon, 8th Oct 2007 1:37 am

cvj,

That’s a good basis for your proposition.

cvj on Mon, 8th Oct 2007 1:38 am

Bibeth, so i take it that it is not only your own freedoms that you want to take away but the other parties that you mentioned (i.e. the communists, the Senators etc.) as well? Karah takes me to task because i tell her straight that i think her opinion is wrong. You on the other hand want to go further. You want to silence those who disagree with you. Which is worse? I think that reflects very well the typical middle class mindset that needs to be changed. Do you think education will help?

bibeth on Mon, 8th Oct 2007 1:42 am

cvj,

If silencing those who criticize and destabilize the government is what it takes to restore the pride and dignity of this nation then so be it.

If taking out the hooligans and anarchists like the NPA is needed to restore peace and order.. then so be it.

Just don’t take my freedom to crack jokes. There will be trouble.

pete on Mon, 8th Oct 2007 1:42 am

ramrod,

Re Oakwood,

you disagreed with Magadalos execution. I don’t agree with the mode of action no matter the execution. It’s what doomed the oakwood experiment.

ramrod on Mon, 8th Oct 2007 1:47 am

“he leaves politics to the politicians, except his right to vote; governing to the government; religion to the clergy; but most especialy, the rule of law to the courts of the land”- bencard

Might as well. This means there is still hope in the younger generation. Ours I admit was a tainted one, but it was a generation that toppled the Marcos’ regime. Though in hindsight, such means could be used by other forces with less nobler objectives. I am praying for sobriety, its only with peaceful, civilized, and adherence to democratic processes that we can move progressively forward.

karah on Mon, 8th Oct 2007 1:49 am

Ram I didn’t think it was a serious “mutiny.” I even thought it might have only been a drill. Taking over a posh Condotel is just fantastic. It was better for them to have taken over the MRT (during the rush hour in the morning, that is). It was just funny.

I would have wanted some action – a siege or an assault maybe. The Mutineers rigged the place right? They were even seen on Cam rolling wires here and there. What a comedy. They got all the MEDIA ATTENTION they were asking for alright. Then what? They eventually surrendered without a drop of blood.

pete on Mon, 8th Oct 2007 1:51 am

karah,

You are raring for a action. I’ll file a petition in congress thru our rep for the repeal of the RVAT return to pre-RVAT level and coverage. What’s your take on it? Shouldn’t we demand that the taxes we pay be reduced until corruption is reduced? or until GMA goes on leave?

bibeth on Mon, 8th Oct 2007 1:56 am

“I would have wanted some action – a siege or an assault maybe. The Mutineers rigged the place right? They were even seen on Cam rolling wires here and there. What a comedy. They got all the MEDIA ATTENTION they were asking for alright. Then what? They eventually surrendered without a drop of blood.” – karah

Karah sure knows her entertainment

ramrod on Mon, 8th Oct 2007 1:56 am

“you disagreed with Magadalos execution. I donâ€™t agree with the mode of action no matter the execution. Itâ€™s what doomed the oakwood experiment.”-pete

A failure is always a mistake. There can be no more strong “coup” like movements in the military, its split up like a ripe watermelon. If you notice the latest “mutiny” events do not even qualify as mutiny just “conduct unbecoming of an officer and a gentleman.” They were just airing out their grievances though misguided they may be. As for the Magdalo, I had some doubts, but sometimes you have to take sides, I have never been a fence sitter. They did that knowing it was career suicide, they had everything to lose. On the other hand, someone became a senator…somehow I get the feeling there was deception here somewhere…

cvj on Mon, 8th Oct 2007 1:57 am

Karah, i respect you as a person and i respect your freedom/right to express yourself (to the extent that you haven’t given it up). However, there is no such thing as the right to an opinion. Instead, anyone who holds an opinion is duty-bound to justify it.

As to Filipino consciousness, refer to my response at 1:32am.

how do you gauge the trend on filipino consciousness as you say from the time the gomburza fathers died up to the present? is this something quantifiable or just a vague idea of yours? – Harry

Harry, i think it has increased over the past one hundred thirty four years, seven months and twenty one days. If you want something quantifiable, you can count the number of Filipino passport holders . Without a doubt, they know what country they are form. As an OFW, i’ve filled enough forms where they ask me what my nationality is. Although of course that’s not the only measure.

If silencing those who criticize and destabilize the government is what it takes to restore the pride and dignity of this nation then so be it. – Bibeth

Then that means you’re going further than Karah in terms of willingness to take away other people’s rights. (Ibang usapan na iyan.) I wonder if Karah, Harry and Ramrod agrees?

karah on Mon, 8th Oct 2007 1:59 am

Pete The problem is not the TAX RATE, it’s the Tax Collection and Tax Enforcement. I am for the repeal of the R-VAT (Reformed Value-Added Tax) since the burden of this tax is being felt by the “common tao” (the common taxpayer). The RICH and ELITE can always either EVADE or AVOID taxes thru all types of loopholes.

How much Taxes are spilled due to Smuggling?
How much Taxes are spilled due to the inability of the BIR to collect proper taxes from Large Taxpayers?
How much Taxes are spilled on certain incentives being given, like some players in the Tobacco Industry?
How much Taxes are spilled on certain loopholes in the Taxation that those who have the money to hire lawyers can exploit?

Though the bulk of the Revenue Collection comes from the BIR and the BOC, another source would be GOCC’s and GFI’s. These institutions should be examined and what are their RATES of RETURN year-in-year-out and how much do they contribute to the National Treasury.

There are actually a lot of Revenue-generating measures and endeavors that can be done but some people in Government want to cut corners and just pass a bill increasing the TAX and the poor good taxpayers feel the full brunt whilst those who evade and avoid are sitting pretty. Quite a sight.

ramrod on Mon, 8th Oct 2007 2:01 am

Bibeth,

You’re going overboard with the “silencing those who criticize..” line. I think its one of your jokes, inaasar mo lang si cvj.

karah on Mon, 8th Oct 2007 2:02 am

jvc The issue is not about “having or not having” a right to an opinion. My question is pretty simple. Do you know how to respect the opinions of others? It’s just a matter of answering in the AFFIRMATIVE or the NEGATIVE. Is that hard for you? Again, don’t skirt my question with your reasons. If you in the affirmative, fine. If you say in the negative, fine. The problem is, you haven’t answered it until now.

Harry on Mon, 8th Oct 2007 2:04 am

“Harry, i think it has increased over the past one hundred thirty four years, seven months and twenty one days. If you want something quantifiable, you can count the number of Filipino passport holders . Without a doubt, they know what country they are form. As an OFW, iâ€™ve filled enough forms where they ask me what my nationality is. Although of course thatâ€™s not the only measure.”

in simple terms, you don’t know. i think your filipino consciousness idea does not stop in knowing that you’re a filipino. so how do you gauge this idea of yours (as you claim that theres an uptrend)?

harry c

bibeth on Mon, 8th Oct 2007 2:06 am

cvj,

Extraordinary problems need extraordinary solutions.

Our country’s problem is by no means ordinary.

Hard steps had to be taken, unpopular decisions needs to be made, and sacrifices are necessary.

But jokes can’t be silenced, for as along as there is chaos, disunity and anarchy, jokes are the only hope we have, our light at the end of the tunnel.

pete on Mon, 8th Oct 2007 2:07 am

ramrod,

re deception somewhere,

that’s how you feel about Trillanes becoming senator, I respect that, but i find it qite judgemental. Although I observe that FVR, Honasan, Trillanes, the Sundalos have acquired a messianinc complex. I think this is real and should recognized as a maladjustment in some elements in the military’s mind-set. an over extension of the defender of the people is saving the people — messianic complex. that mindset could be expressed in different ways including an advocacy by GMA generals for a declaration of martial law.

cvj on Mon, 8th Oct 2007 2:09 am

Karah, if you understood my explanation above, you’d realize that you’re asking a question that cannot be answered by a yes or no since respecting other’s opinions is meaningless. I respect your right to express yourself (while you still have it).

karah on Mon, 8th Oct 2007 2:15 am

cvj But still you did not answer my question. There’s no such thing as a “meaningless” question as you say. It’s just that you don’t wanna answer a question point-blank because it would put you on the spot and so you find ways and means to evade it. It’s my opinion. Don’t you worry, it’s my FREEDOM anyways, not yours.

cvj on Mon, 8th Oct 2007 2:15 am

Bibeth, it’s good that you are revealing your position more and more. It’s one thing for you yourself to make a sacrifice but your willingness to sacrifice others’ freedoms is something else. Who gave you that right?

cvj on Mon, 8th Oct 2007 2:17 am

Itâ€™s my opinion. – Karah

I think your opinion is WRONG

bibeth on Mon, 8th Oct 2007 2:17 am

cvj,

as my pal once said.. no guts.. no GORY

cvj on Mon, 8th Oct 2007 2:20 am

Yeah Bibeth, but with someone else’s guts? Who gave you that right?

karah on Mon, 8th Oct 2007 2:20 am

cvj You position that my “opinion is wrong” is WRONG.

ramrod on Mon, 8th Oct 2007 2:20 am

pete,

I have to admit you’re right in your “messianic complex” angle. 20 years ago I believed we were needed to save the Filipino people and did everything in my power to do so. Such is the folly of youth, but in the military, a dangerous one. Why do you think I chose to join the business sector instead. So many were “disillusioned.” Personally, I saw my squad leader, the same one who mentored me about the honor code, found guilty of violating it, and he was not alone.
Now its up to this younger generation, who are hopefully untainted by all this, will be more discerning. Of the list you mentioned, I’ll listen only to Honasan, though he is quiet at the moment, I hope he’s just busy doing his job and focusing on things that really matter.

ramrod on Mon, 8th Oct 2007 2:22 am

I feel so much sexual tension here.

bibeth on Mon, 8th Oct 2007 2:24 am

I smell a hot head in here?

How about you karah?

cvj on Mon, 8th Oct 2007 2:25 am

Ok, good night folks @_@

Harry on Mon, 8th Oct 2007 2:25 am

i smell chicharon being cooked.

ramrod on Mon, 8th Oct 2007 2:26 am

Good night, good night, parting is such sweet sorrow…

cvj on Mon, 8th Oct 2007 2:27 am

Must be Bibeth’s Boy Bawang.

bibeth on Mon, 8th Oct 2007 2:28 am

Karah is just starting to warm up.

Better get some facts straightened up…

karah on Mon, 8th Oct 2007 2:28 am

Beth I can smell the aroma of chicharon being cooked (from where I am) as far as Carcar, Cebu.

vic on Mon, 8th Oct 2007 2:29 am

yeah I like these discussions about freedoms and rights.

If some of us think we have freedoms, just because we can say anything without to answer for our words or responsible to the consequence of what was we “blabber” about, then we are NOT talking about the freedom of speech.

If some of us think that freedoms and rights guarantee us the right to deprive others of theirs, like what the Military and Police are alleged to have done, then you can have that freedoms, Iâ€™d rather lose mine and make sure that the cops and military lose their right to deprive others the right to life.

If you think freedoms and rights guarantee the elites and the aristocrats to have the immunities which the masses do not enjoy, then Iâ€™ll rather side with the masses to make sure that the elites and the aristocrats losses that freedoms too…and there are more…but to top it off I’ll copy and paste Section 1 of our Charter that state that rights and freedoms are guaranteed, subject to limits, followed by Section 15 the Equality Rights.

Guarantee of Rights and Freedoms
Section 1:
The Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms guarantees the rights and freedoms set out in it subject only to such reasonable limits prescribed by law as can be demonstrably justified in a free and democratic society.
Equality Rights
Section 15. (1) Every individual is equal before and under the law and has the right to the equal protection and equal benefit of the law without discrimination and, in particular, without discrimination based on race, national or ethnic origin, colour, religion, sex, age or mental or physical disability.
(2) Subsection (1) does not preclude any law, program or activity that has as its object the amelioration of conditions of disadvantaged individuals or groups including those that are disadvantaged because of race, national or ethnic origin, colour, religion, sex, age or mental or physical disability.

bibeth on Mon, 8th Oct 2007 2:30 am

Karah loves chicharon.

Better give some straightforward answers… or she’ll make a chicharon out of you.

pete on Mon, 8th Oct 2007 2:32 am

karah,

thanks, you’ve given a good context of why RVAT must be repealed. It is an additional burden on the common tao and more funds are lost thru corrutpion.

GMA is able to stay in power because we, the people, are forced to give her the extra tax money she uses to bribe corrupt politicians and generals, to satisfy her creditors while starving the people, to get more loans even if the people bleed to death in paying them.

The RVAT gives GMA extra tax money to bribe more, to borrow more to stay in power. The VAT must be returned to its pre-RVAT level and coverage. Remove VAT on oil and power. Return VAT from 12% to 10%.

Reducing tax money has a disabling effect on GMAâ€™s corrupt transactional style of leadership. Once GMA is fiscally disabled, itâ€™s easier to persuade her to go on leave of absence.

bibeth on Mon, 8th Oct 2007 2:34 am

Karah,

you might want to take some nap. You have a flight tomorrow. We sure will miss you for about a week.

Don’t forget my bear. I prefer the polar bear, very cuddly and playful.

And extend my regards to daddy Bush.

Harry on Mon, 8th Oct 2007 2:38 am

“If some of us think we have freedoms, just because we can say anything without to answer for our words or responsible to the consequence of what was we â€œblabberâ€ about, then we are NOT talking about the freedom of speech.” -vic

i agree. even freedoms and rights are not absolute. they have limits. when a person uses his freedom to infringe the freedom of other people. it’s not freedom, it’s abuse.

harry c

schizophonic on Mon, 8th Oct 2007 2:42 am

Karah, are you also Lailow?

karah on Mon, 8th Oct 2007 2:44 am

Who is Lailow?

Bencard on Mon, 8th Oct 2007 9:15 am

cvj, since when is there no right to hold an opinion? who abolished it, you? have you heard of freedom of thought in a democracy?

if its someone’s opinion that you don’t agree, your non-agreement is also an opinion. how can one not have an opinion while you can?

i can believe what i want to believe about you (which is an opinion) and there’s nothing in hell you can do about it, unless i publicize it and it constitutes an actionable defamation.

karah, bibeth, and harry. i find myself agreeing to most of your points of view. i think i have expressed similar opinions in this blog and have to defend them against the likes of abe, mlq3, djb, mb, shaman, cvj, mbw and a few others. btw, karah, i have faced the same problems dealing with cvj’s unorthodox method of argumentation. he’s persistent, but he’s o.k. glad you came around, guys.

cvj on Mon, 8th Oct 2007 9:54 am

bencard, as i was trying to explain to Karah, there is no such thing as a right to an opinion. what is mistaken for the right to an opinion is actually the right to free speech. btw, thanks for the good word.

ramrod on Mon, 8th Oct 2007 12:18 pm

cvj,

I take that the number of people for a “Singapore” like Philippines has increased to 7, with the addition of Bencard, Vic, and Pete. Ironic, since your the one in Singapore right now. Its not so bad, everytime I go there I can’t help but envy what I see. Anyway, I’ll be there in November, I hope to see you there, I’ll treat you to beer at “Hooters” there’s one in Clark Quay.

ramrod on Mon, 8th Oct 2007 12:42 pm

karah, bibeth, harry

Guys take it easy on cvj, he’s out there away from his native land, sometimes it’s a lonely experience. Probably explains why he’s blogging most of the time (hehehe). His reluctance to give away some freedoms may yet be justifiable as he is experiencing Singapore first hand and it seems that not all the people there are happy about it.

Pete,

Inasmuch as I am willing to give up some of my freedoms as long as its applicable to everyone, I still have a little bit of reservation. Its something we have to be careful about, you know the saying “be careful what you wish for?” Putting too much power on the “implementors”
is a bit scary at this time. I know how it feels to have the power over somebody, it misleads you to believe you are “god” sometimes, some people don’t know how to handle it hence the abuses.

On the topic of these military adventurists, in the context of the premise that “we are a government of laws” and the military institution itself has clearly defined rules of conduct, they knew what they were going into. Regardless of their intentions (whether they were political or not) they still crossed the line and there are no excuses. They know that they have to face the consequences, this is nothing new to them. I only ask you and those who would readily “lop off their heads” to be compassionate, at least give them the benefit of the doubt, understand that these are young men, they acted on what they believed in and are facing the consequences. Your heart should also go to to their families and friends who are suffering right now. Please be more compassionate, these are not cold blooded killers or rapists…

hvrds on Mon, 8th Oct 2007 1:38 pm

It is not surprising that the debate between Hobbesian “Levithian” and Lockes “Treatise on Civil Govenment” is now raging in most of the developing world. However limited in scope it must now be broadened based on todays standards on contracts, property rights inequality and on the effects on the environement.

Someone once wrote that democracy is the only political system that allows its own demise. Once again it is a matter of equilibrium. Nothing can bring it to that state as much as letting the markets operate freelly allowing the forces of greed and fear independent interplay.

The ability to produce weapons of mass destructions have now been equally distributed to all different races. The danger lies in the fact that closed societies or societies that have brutally oppressed its minorities have always produced the crazies. (The source of most militant fundamentalist Muslims come from the most closed Islamic societies or other societies)

Industrial warfare makes mass war irrational. The privatization of violence and limited warfare is a normal course. Al Qaeda, Blackwater and other NGO’s are involved in the business of warfare. There are more private contractors in Iraq than there are soldiers from the U.S.

There is no doubt that state players fund Al Qaeda and other terrorist orgs. Here in the Philippines there is no doubt that U.S. funds and private funds are used to fund black ops. using private (retired military and police) players vs. leftists and perceived enemies to the state.

Bog Mike and GMA took over the country with severely damaged institutions after Erap. Then Chief Justice Davide and justice Panganiban presided over the dismembering of the Constituion. They effectively led the SC and legislated and adjudicated a new format for constitutionally removing a President outside of Congress or a Constituional Convention.
The military and the Supreme Court were damaged and the military establishment shifted loyalties to the person instead of to the law. The joint chiefs of staff of the country and the chief of the national police committed treason vs. the constituion on which the republic stands. The Philippines reverted to the Hobbesian “Levithian” form of government.

Big Mike and GMA are now taking it to its logical process. Loyalty to the First Couple takes precedence over the rule of law.

Loyalty to the First Couple can be exchanged for currency. Almost all of the strategic institutions of state are loaded with their puppets and they get to load it up with more. They have the power over the treasury and create at will wealth for the loyalists.

cvj on Mon, 8th Oct 2007 2:19 pm

Ramrod, i’ve never been to Hooters so i’m looking forward to your arrival.

Bencard on Mon, 8th Oct 2007 7:33 pm

ramrod, i think you got it upside down. it’s not cvj who is
“reluctant” to give up some freedom, rather it’s him who want to deny us the freedom to have an opinion. i think he is having an overdose of singapore, or he just doesn’t understand the concept of liberty in a democracy. which one is it, cvj?

pete on Mon, 8th Oct 2007 8:30 pm

ramrod,

my reply to you re adventurists has gone ‘disaperisado’ an involuntary disapearance victim.

re your point re putting too much power in the hands of ‘implementors’ is vague, can you be specific if you are replying to a suggestion that somebody had put forward?

pete on Mon, 8th Oct 2007 8:36 pm

ramrod,

ramrod:”I only ask you and those who would readily â€œlop off their headsâ€ to be compassionate, at least give them the benefit of the doubt, understand that these are young men, they acted on what they believed in and are facing the consequences. Your heart should also go to to their families and friends who are suffering right now. Please be more compassionate,”

I posted at ellen t’s blog, the first thread on trillanes running for senator,January 21st, 2007:

“I was against the Oakwood experiment by the Magadalos which Trillanes led. The armed maneuver was a political mistake. Resignation en-masse, a hunger strike and a call for civil disobedience, imho, could have had a better chance. But they put their lives on the line for us. Their families have suffered so much. In this election we unite with them and their families in this fight for Truth and Justice.”

ramrod on Mon, 8th Oct 2007 9:19 pm

“re your point re putting too much power in the hands of â€˜implementorsâ€™ is vague, can you be specific if you are replying to a suggestion that somebody had put forward?”- pete

I’m sorry if I wasn’t clear on this. Karah, Harry, Bibeth, and I were discussing the viability of following the “Singapore” model as an alternative form of government for the Philippines. All of us were willing to give up certain “freedoms.” Someone commented “Iâ€™d rather lose mine and make sure that the cops and military lose their right to deprive others the right to life.” I thought it was you, it was Vic. My bad, I only noticed you and the others.

Thank you for your comment in Ellen’s blog Jan 21, 2007. At least someone sees this issue without prejudgment. As for Trillanes, I started doubting him when he joined up with Estrada. But then again, without knowing him, talking or him, that would be unfair. As I am ignorant to most political issues, I will welcome your “take” on this.

I bought the book “Closer Than Brothers” by Alfred McCoy as suggested by MLQ3. It’s about two PMA classes ‘40 and ‘71, very insightful, its only now that I began to understand certain aspects of my youth that I could never reconcile…

ramrod on Mon, 8th Oct 2007 9:22 pm

“ramrod, i think you got it upside down. itâ€™s not cvj who is
â€œreluctantâ€ to give up some freedom, rather itâ€™s him who want to deny us the freedom to have an opinion. i think he is having an overdose of singapore, or he just doesnâ€™t understand the concept of liberty in a democracy. which one is it, cvj?”- bencard

Nah. I think he’s just “pulling karah’s leg.”

pete on Mon, 8th Oct 2007 11:08 pm

ramrod,

thanks for the reply,

looks like a big fight is on between GMA and JdV.

Bencard on Mon, 8th Oct 2007 11:37 pm

“Nah, I think he’s just “pulling karah’s leg.” ramrod.

i don’t think so, not cvj. he would not put himself on record unless he could defend his point of view. btw, why don’t you let the man speak for himself?

ramrod on Tue, 9th Oct 2007 12:30 am

“bencard, as i was trying to explain to Karah, there is no such thing as a right to an opinion. what is mistaken for the right to an opinion is actually the right to free speech. “- cvj

The way I see it here, he’s playing with semantics, how can you divorce “free speech” from “opinion?” When you air out this opinion you have to use your faculties of speech. We can ask him about it but…

ramrod on Tue, 9th Oct 2007 12:33 am

pete,

GMA and JDV fight. Looks to me like powder puff girl versus yoda. This may turn out to be very interesting as the fight deepens we might be at the receiving end of some revelations.

Bencard on Tue, 9th Oct 2007 2:24 am

ramrod, then why are you making excuses for him? “We can ask him about it but…”. but what?

Bencard on Tue, 9th Oct 2007 2:38 am

cvj, ramrod, check this out:

“However, there’s no such thing as the right to an opinion. Instead, anyone who holds an opinion is duty-bound to justify it.” cvj, 10/8, 1:57 am.

Bencard on Tue, 9th Oct 2007 5:44 am

for those who are following the little exchanges in this and the “free burma” threads in this blog concerning military discipline and “adventurism”, here’s a recent article which i find interesting:

Dissent on The Front

Are there consequences for soldiers who write publicly, and prominently, against the war? Eight are finding out. “We have failed on every promise,” wrote seven 82nd Airborne paratroopers in a stark dispatch from Baghdad that was the lead Sunday op-ed in the New York Times Aug. 19. Superiors at Fort Bragg were surprised – but not professors at Marquette, where Sp. Buddhika Jayamaha, whose name led the op-ed, had studied. One, Barrett McCormick, said he e-mailed with “BJ” recently. He was very curious about what was going to happen,” he says. “No one knows what the repercussions will be.”

There might not be any. Army policies permit soldiers to write or blog as long as they don’t compromise operational security (e.g., troop locations) or challenge civilian leadership. Until it is established that they violated any regulations, they will not be punished just for their views,” said Army spokesman Maj. Tom Earnhardt.

The future is murkier for Pvt. Scott Beauchamp, whose shocking tales in The New Republic – including a soldier wearing a fragment of a child’s skull – were disputed by bloggers, notably at The Weekly Standard. The influential magazine, which in 1998 was hurt badly by a writer’s serial fabrications, said in two editor’s notes it had re-reported Beauchamp’s work and stood by it, except for one error: one anecdote took place in Kuwait, not Iraq.

But the editors have had no contact with Beauchamp in weeks, and efforts to corroborate his work have stalled. His wife, Elspeth Reeve, a fact checker at the magazine, said his laptop and cell phone had been confiscated; that he is permitted to speak only to her, his mother and a lawyer; and tha some calls are supervised. But the Army said Beauchamp has no restrictions on his communications. (Attempts to reach him were unsuccessful.)

The New Republic is waiting to talk to Beauchamp, leaving its critics unchallenged. “It’s maddening,” says editor Franklin Foe. How long can an editor ask readers to wait? “It’s important to try to be thorough…If it takes time, there’s nothing we can do about it.” Army spokesman Lt. Col. Scott Bleichwehl said its inquiry is ongoing at the unit level. Beauchamp cannot be punished for his views, but he faces the possibility of administrative, or noncriminal, charge if the Army determines he lied in his writings.
Nick Summers and Catharine Skipp
Newsweek, 9/3/2007

cvj on Tue, 9th Oct 2007 9:36 am

Bencard is right. I wasn’t pulling Karah’s leg. The distinction between the right to free speech and the right to an opinion is not mere semantics. Karah’s right to free speech means that no one has the right to silence her because that would infringe on her right. In short, her right to free speech gives rise to our duty not to silence her.

In contrast, there is no corresponding duty to agree with (or even listen to) her opinion. Anyone is free to agree, disagree, or disregard anyone else’s opinion. It is the person who puts forward an opinion who is duty bound to justify or defend it using facts, logic or an appeal to values. Hiding behind the ‘right to an opinion’ does not qualify as a valid defense.

ramrod on Tue, 9th Oct 2007 9:43 am

cvj,

Good luck telling that to karah, the feisty “annie” of cyberspace.

Bencard on Tue, 9th Oct 2007 9:48 am

i’ll hold my peace this time. i wouldn’t spoil it for karah for anything in the world.

cvj on Tue, 9th Oct 2007 12:04 pm

San Luis, the new Marcoleta?

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