Gratuitous punishments
September 13, 2007 by mlq3
Filed under Daily Dose
Courtesy of the BBC, a portrait of Convicted Estrada’s tranquil jail (hat tip to how now, brownpau? who also deserves a prize for most startling Estrada-related image).
Fr. Joaquin Bernas, SJ in his column, explains what the crime of plunder is, and points out that unless accompanied by conditions, a convict can’t refuse a pardon:
Incidentally, Estrada has already said that he will not accept pardon. It is worth noting, however, that only conditional pardon requires acceptance.
An absolute pardon becomes effective even if not accepted.
Amando Doronila says the Estrada conviction sets the stage for an uneasy Arroyo post-presidency, to put it mildly (bloggers such as Careless Thoughts express similar sentiments). In my column today, Estrada’s ghost army, I do point out that things have reached the point where Estrada’s wrongdoings look like small potatoes compared to the goings-on in the present government (and you only have to look at the ZTE deal, a huge can of worms).
It was also significant, I thought, that even as Estrada faced conviction in court, political leaders were practically falling over themselves to be seen with him, or at least to let everyone (including, most of all, Estrada himself) know they sympathized with the man. In contrast, the President had hunkered down in the Palace with her cabinet, and no one was making a beeline to see and be seen at Fortress Malacanang. This is a pretty galling indication of just who, exactly, the political class thinks will be more relevant come 2010. With relevance comes influence.
Going back to Estrada’s crimes and punishment. In Inquirer Current, I tackled two points of view. To understand the rise and fall of Estrada, and his subsequent (partial) political rehabilitation since then, can be explained by means of a simple axiom: you do not kick a man when he is down. I also discussed something a UP Prof., Prospero de Vera, said on TV yesterday: the Filipino concept of justice is one of restitution and not retribution.
The former presidents of South Korea imprisoned for crimes much more serious than those for which Joseph Estrada was convicted, were imprisoned for only a year before being pardoned. The justification for the pardons goes to the heart of the position I personally held, vis-a-vis the decision to detain Estrada in the first place.
In conversations I had during that time, I remember saying I opposed his being thrown in jail upon the filing of charges. My reasons were simple. I felt that he deserved consideration both as a former president, and because he’d relinquished power without bloodshed. Of course a lot of counter-arguments were made, the rule of law, etc., etc., but I felt that it would be perceived as kicking a man when he’s down, and that a newly-installed government whose legitimacy rested on a pretty unsatisfactory Supreme Court decision, was in a poor position to insist on an inflexible application of legal procedure. It was reckless and imprudent to ferociously apply the law when your legality hasn’t had time to be fully settled.
Had Estrada been left in the comfort of his North Greenhills home, placed, perhaps, under house arrest, then carted to and from the venue of his trial, you wouldn’t have had Edsa Tres. I wish I could locate Fr. Bernas’s column where he pointed out that Estrada’s status as a prisoner was sui generis, and thus couldn’t properly be compared to that of an ordinary felon. His legal argument was made long after the Estrada arrest, if I recall correctly.
In light of what Prof. de Vera said, which I think is very true, and in view of the South Korean experience, it might also be more productive to revisit the law penalizing plunder, and refocus it on enabling the authorities to recover ill-gotten wealth from officials. That satisfies the requirements of justice; it avoids turning erring officials into martyrs; and it addresses a reality we all know: money is power. Conviction, in and of itself, carries great symbolic weight; beyond confiscation of ill-gotten wealth or property, any further punishment for an elected official is gratuitous.
Of course, there are those who’d strongly disagree (the conviction is “one point for the thinking Filipino,” says Blowing My Mind Off). See Erap verdict and our affair with the law by Miriam Coronel Ferrer (who is more inclined for a “rule orientation”) and Guilty! But Special Concessions for Accused Show Flawed System, by Karen Tiongson-Mayrina.
Blogger chizjarkace thinks Estrada’s still exactly in the same position he was before the verdict. Rasheed’s World thinks the conviction has less impact because not only does Chavit Singson remain scott free, but it remains to be seen whether similar high-profile cases can even get off the ground (ricelander expresses similar thoughts; Philippine Experience wonders if those who went after Estrada would go after the President with equal vigor). A good way of seeing how one case can point to a larger injustice is in Exposing a Corrupt Prosecution and Trial in Alabama, in Harper’s Magazine’s blog:
Like tin-horned Central American dictators of old, the Bush crew believes that it can and should use the criminal justice system to take out its political enemies. It does this in a brazen way. And it has no shortage of ostensibly independent helpers to see its schemes along on their merry way. When the story is fully told, the “independent†players will be exposed as not remotely independent. This was an across-the-board systems failure.
This cautionary note (no legal system is immune from the risks of being used for partisan ends) brings up another. Charles Cunningham’s The Residencia in Spanish Colonies explores (with a particular focus on the Philippines) the Spanish colonial institution of the audit of officials as soon as they left office, or embarked to take on a new one. Praiseworthy in its intentions, in practical terms it proved a disaster. As Cunnigham wote, in the conclusion of his paper:
The residencia was essentially a Spanish institution. Its principles were inherited from the Romans. It was adapted through three hundred years to the needs of a vast colonial empire. It cannot be said that it was a success. Its purpose was to deter government officials from abuses rather than to inculcate a sincere desire on their part to fulfill the duties of their offices conscientiously and justly. The necessity for the residencia would have been eliminated by a more careful selection of men for offices. The residencia was the culmination of a period of service in an office which had been purchased, usually, and which was not regarded as an opportunity for service but as a means of yielding the greatest possible profit to its holder. Aside from the obvious defects of such a system, the residencia came too late in the period of service, held as it was at the end of the term. It sought to punish offenders and correct evils rather than to prevent them. This was the most serious fault of the residencia.
Still, going back to my proposal to revisit the plunder law, a system for the public audit and determination of accountability of all public officials, upon the expiration of their terms of office, might be a good option to explore as well.
Interesting observation by james_cartmire, on the Escuderos:
on a different note, i’m sensing the escuderos are positioning themselves to become part of the coalition majority soon. whether it’s in preparation for 2010 or just to gain power favors from malacañang, i don’t know, but they are recently sounding off something intriguingly ‘pro-administration’.
representative salvador escudero (chiz’s father) for one has been vocal on giving pointers to gma that borders political objectivity and classic butt-kissing-in-denial. in one news stroy i read last week (i just can’t recall what story it was exactly), the older escudero was advising gma on what he thinks she ought to do with a rather non-oppositionist tone. and on another occassion, he repeatedly praised health secretary francisco duque during a budget hearing; he commended duque and said that he should really should consider replacing presidential spokesperson ignacio bunye, since he was successfully able to explain the rationale of their budget request, unlike gma’s ’spokespersons’ who often only make a situation worse for her by not being able to clearly explain and/or coming off as arrogant.
the younger escudero, chiz, on the other hand, has been reportedly working very close with gma’s economic team on pursuing malacañang’s legislative agenda on macroeconomic affairs in the senate (finance secretary margarito teves said so). hmm.. i guess we’ll hear more of the escuderos soon enough.
Latest news is that Jose Ma. Sison is due to be released from detention, but the dissatisfaction of his admirers with those who approved of the arrest will long endure. As we have no names puts it,
I can only look at the context of those blog writers. It did not surprise me one bit when I discover that these writers are also those who support Tuition and Other Fee Increases, the intensified exploitation of foreign corporations of our natural resources, and show a double standard when it comes to the violation of the rights’ of UP students (yes, they get all sanctimonious with the death of Cris Mendez, but show indifference to Karen Empeno and Sherlyn Cadapan, showing that if you’re a Leftist, its ok for them if you get killed). In short, I can only express regret how certain people, under the cloak of “freedom of speech” propagate the most malicious of the Arroyo Regime’s propaganda.
UPDATE: Joma Sison Release from prison an hour ago in Scheveningen. Live photos!
Bankok Pundit wonders how a Thai general can express admiration for Mao Zedong.
Czechews reports residency permits are going to be easier to obtain, because of a shortage of skilled labor. OFWs will most likely explore this option soon enough.
Lighter reading: reason is the reason on funerals. In Fraternam Meam on the debate (reaching the courts) on who invented (ugh!) Karaoke.
Technorati Tags: Blogging, history, ideas, law, media, philippines, politics, president, society
Delicious
Facebook
Flickr
LinkedIn
Technorati
Twitter
Loading ...
nash on Thu, 13th Sep 2007 5:34 pm
Can someone please explain why Chavit Singson is not in jail with Erap? Did the state actually make him a state witness in exchange for immunity?
Rom on Thu, 13th Sep 2007 5:55 pm
nash:yep
Dirk Pitt on Thu, 13th Sep 2007 5:58 pm
This is from ricelander, an interesting definition of a new affliction: The Joker Arroyo Syndrome
“But it seems, humans that we are, perfection is not our predisposition. One way or the other, we suffer an affliction I call The Joker Arroyo Syndrome, you know, the kind that make you see an act an abomination, a crime, an immorality when committed by an enemy or a despicable someone, but a harmless human defect better left ignored when found in allies and friends? By the way, let me drift off for awhile, I named it so because Joker seems to me the quintessential embodiment of that human quality. Self-named Mr. Graftbuster, note how smoke shoot out from the holes of this dragon’s head, eyes burning, flame streaking out the mouth every time topic wanders off to the sins of Marcos and Estrada. Then observe closely how this angry dragon turn magically into a harmless lizard when sins of Pidal variety more atrocious in magnitude, more malignant visit his horizon.”
taga de cebu on Thu, 13th Sep 2007 6:35 pm
Re the Joker Arroyo affliction:
I still cant believe when I see Joker Arroyo in the company of his new chums,Juan Ponce Enrile,Ed Angara and Lady Miriam defending GMA and Jose Pidal…So different from those idealistic days in Mendiola when you saw a brave Joker with intellectial giants like Lorenzo Tanada,Chino Roces and other brave souls facing the tear gas and water cannons of the Marcos palace guards.
JOKER
bluepanjeet on Thu, 13th Sep 2007 6:35 pm
“I opposed his being thrown in jail upon the filing of charges.”
I agree with you on this. They could have filed instead a hold-departure order in the immigration if they want to make sure that Estrada would not gallivant in nearby countries. This present regime is so power hungry that they were never contented in chastising the ex president. look around and see, and one could notice that traces and remnants of marshal law policies are slowly groping our nation’s democratic stability. To enumerate them will take forever…
bluepanjeet on Thu, 13th Sep 2007 6:38 pm
@taga de cebu – we have the same wonderment. I too am so puzzled with Joker’s recent shape shifting abilities and leech smacking on the president’s behind. He’s not funny anymore.
taga de cebu on Thu, 13th Sep 2007 6:51 pm
Joker Arroyo: “GMA is the best protector of the Constitution.”
I still like to remember Joker as the brave human rights lawyer during the Marcos dictatorship.His recent actuations are probably aberration of his character due to old age.
taga de cebu on Thu, 13th Sep 2007 7:26 pm
Gloria remember:“I have sat at the sumptuous tables of power, but I have not run away with the silverware.â€
Diosdado Macapagal
Bokyo on Thu, 13th Sep 2007 8:34 pm
Chavit Singson Was the Man ” I think the country need him keep up the good work CHAV’S, kailangang isagawa ang panghuhusga ng Tamang walang pinapanigang Batas sa Pilipinas, walang dapat kilingan ang Batas Mayaman kaman o Mahirap kapag nagkasala o lumabag sa Batas ang isang Mamayan o yung mga nanunungkulan sa Batas na tumatangap ng perang Lagay para mapawalang sala sa ginawang Krimen, Give them what they DESERVE. Sandigang Bayan MUST exersise the law of RIGTHEOUSNESS for every Individual.
Dirk Pitt on Thu, 13th Sep 2007 9:00 pm
Watch out Tito, Vic & Joey, a new comedic trio might replace you one day.
Let’s welcome Johny, Dick & Joker!!!
BrianB on Thu, 13th Sep 2007 9:07 pm
Manolo, what the trial proved was that Filipinos (not to sound too much like benign0 you understand) has no endurance for such a lengthy and legal proceeding. It’s exhaustion, that’s why very few sympathizers were on the streets.
BrianB on Thu, 13th Sep 2007 9:08 pm
Manolo, what the trial proved was that Filipinos (not to sound too much like benign0 you understand) have no endurance for such a lengthy and legal proceeding. It’s exhaustion, that’s why very few sympathizers were on the streets.
BrianB on Thu, 13th Sep 2007 9:20 pm
http://img49.imageshack.us/img49/3185/malufernandezspoof2cd0.jpg
More Malu!
taga de cebu on Thu, 13th Sep 2007 10:04 pm
To my countrymen:
“Now I ask you to make your sacrifice. Take a gamble. I took the plunge and I’m glad of it.â€
Gloria Macapagal Arroyo
taga de cebu on Thu, 13th Sep 2007 10:10 pm
Joker Arroyo’s Circle of Influence:
Before:
Cory Aquino
Ninoy Aquino
Lorenzo Tanada
Jose W.Diokno
Chino Roces
Ceicilia Munoz Palma
Now:
GMA
Johnny Enrile
Ed Angara
Miriam Defensor Santiago
Dick Gordon
Bong Revilla
Lito Lapid
Migz Zubiri
Quo Vadis Joker?
Pilipinoparin on Thu, 13th Sep 2007 10:20 pm
Joker Arroyo: “GMA is the best protector of the Constitution.â€
“I still like to remember Joker as the brave human rights lawyer during the Marcos dictatorship.His recent actuations are probably aberration of his character due to old age.”…taga de cebu
Yes, maybe he met Al Saymer in Seattle.
manuelbuencamino on Thu, 13th Sep 2007 11:32 pm
Nash,
Here;s the answer to your question:
Chavit was granted immunity by the Sandigan and granted impunity by Gloria.
rego on Fri, 14th Sep 2007 1:36 am
“It was also significant, I thought, that even as Estrada faced conviction in court, political leaders were practically falling over themselves to be seen with him, or at least to let everyone (including, most of all, Estrada himself) know they sympathized with the man. In contrast, the President had hunkered down in the Palace with her cabinet, and no one was making a beeline to see and be seen at Fortress Malacanang. This is a pretty galling indication of just who, exactly, the political class thinks will be more relevant come 2010. With relevance comes influence.”
——————————————————-
Manolo,
I dont feel positive about this paragraph.
Political leaders are lining up on Erap becuase they know that Eraps followers are the gullible voters. That by just expressing sympathaty or just to be photographed with Erap already translate into votes. This to me a form of exploitation of the weakneses of the masses. And I dont think this will help much on our desire to make the country progressive.
Besides with your “man is down” line its just but natural for people to sympthatize with Erap. Gloria doesn’t need symphaty at this time, its Erap. Wouldn’t it be so inappropriate or even rude for these leaders to come falling over Gloria when its Erap who badly needed it. It just like kicking the man out when he is already down.
Im am more aligned with Devils on his wish for a new leader like Jesse Robredo. I dont think it would be good for the country hang on to Erap and Gloria after 2010. I would go for a leader who would stand on his own rather than use the Erap or Gloria influence.
I am not saying that we just let go of Gloria that easy By all means if there is solid eveidenc against Gloria, she shoudl be prosecuted with the full extent of the law.
I just wish, people like you should start leading this country to get over with the Erap/Gloria controversial and messy era. I had enough of the weaknesses of these two leaders putting on hold the country progress. It taking so long already.
rego on Fri, 14th Sep 2007 2:11 am
Also Manolo,
What do you feel about the execution of Bobby Dacer and his driver during the Erap impeachment. Bobby was believed to be holding a very damning evidence against Erap that time. And Michael Ray Aquino and Mancao who is teh prime suspect and who fled top teh US for that reason is closely associated to Lacson who was the PNP chief of Erap.
How about Yolanda Ricarforte who also fled to US?.
La lang? You just close your eyes on these?
Geez Manolo, Erap and Lacson obviously ordered killing of these people and yet you are still very excited on the rehabilating Erap? Sometimes I wonder what kind of people are you? You very vocal of Glorias sin but are just so blind when it come s to Erap and Lacson murdering ways?
supremo on Fri, 14th Sep 2007 3:12 am
Dacer was ordered killed by another journalist for personal reasons. The order was executed by a former member of the ABB who is now an OFW.
pinoy on Fri, 14th Sep 2007 5:13 am
Joker Arroyo has double standard. First noticed it during Erap’s impeachment trial. Namamanka sa dalawang ilog and kanyang prinsipyo. Mdarama lang magproject at magaling sa retoric pero double standard talaga.
mlq3 on Fri, 14th Sep 2007 6:46 am
rego, that’s the curious trap everyone is in if you accept the courts as the venue, and if you insist on evidence for gma etc., etc. lacson has faced the accusations in court. and no one has filed murder charges vs. estrada, the latter is particularly surprising, don’t you think?
DJB on Fri, 14th Sep 2007 8:48 am
MLQ3,
You inadvertently left out the most important line in Father Bernas’ column It’s enough to make a grown man cry which was this sentence just before the part you quoted:
Fr. Bernas: “But pardon may come only after final conviction.”
True, only conditional pardons require acceptance, absolute pardons do not. But both kinds of pardon can only be offered and/or given AFTER final conviction.
As long as Erap appeals, there is no final conviction. He maintains a presumption of innocence in the sense that the burden of proof has not shifted to Estelito Mendoza and his lawyers to now prove that Erap is innocent of plunder.
It is now up to the Prosecutors to convince the Supreme Court to agree there is NO reasonable doubt he committed plunder.
That will require, to my mind, a unanimous decision of the Supreme Court that not only is evidence decisive of plunder, but that all the events that led up to it, including Edsa 2, the withdrawal of support, the abortion of the impeachment trial, the swearing in, everything was Constitutional throughout.
If a Supreme Court decision is not unanimous, Erap will be acquitted. Must be acquitted. That is the way our Justice system works.
His “guilt” or “innocence” is no longer bound up in the mundane details of a jueteng deal with Chavit gone bad, it is now all tied up with HOW we remove Presidents SO we can prosecute them for plunder.
Constitutional “Beyond reasonable doubt” must be established for Edsa Dos itself, because this is now a capital criminal case, not a Constitutional fantasy case.
The plunder appeal case ought to be called “Estrada vs. Davide” or “Chief Executive vs. Chief Justice” and will be a defining educational moment for us all, not just the hapless Supreme Court.
rego on Fri, 14th Sep 2007 9:01 am
“Dacer was ordered killed by another journalist for personal reasons. The order was executed by a former member of the ABB who is now an OFW.”
————————————————
Yeah right and its just a pure coincidence that the executioner , Michael Ray Aquino and Mancao are close aides of Lacson, who was the top henchman of Erap that time.
rego on Fri, 14th Sep 2007 9:08 am
And another coincidence is that the execution has to be carried out at the height of impeachment and Dacer left his home with an envelop carrying documents against Erap.
And that mysterious journalist must be soooooo powerful that we can pin him down. We can only get Aquino and Mancao.
Karl Garcia on Fri, 14th Sep 2007 9:14 am
If only have a way to share databases,like the boc,dti,sec,lto and especially the BIR,we would help solve our tax collection problem. Wil the the national broadband network solve that, The private sector says we already have a backbone in place,and the nbn would just make it redundant or something like that.
I wonder why,the BIR and and the treasury departments of each locality always have a mismatch of taxpayer databases.
We need transparecy,and an interconnectivity between offices will help solve that,another chicken and egg dilemma.
*********************************************
I was surprised to hear that why not run after the marcosses,then Ramos,etc.? Naniniwal na ako ke thirdson,na over rated ang kwentong barbero.
Aren’t we running after the Marcosses for decades, and nothing all we got were sesami street operations like operation Big Bird.
masaming backlogs sa sandigan bayan,di nga nila malaman kung anu uunahin eh,hanggang sa magkalimutan na.
tapos kulang kulang pa ang presntation,yung iba di nila maintindihan; like a case involving those group of people from a branch of service in the Military.(ilang opisyal din yun iba patay na.)(regarding a fund fromm a glass company)( a malversation case)
Syempre yan lang ang sampol na medyo alam ko.
That, I think why a special divison has to be creatted for former presidents.
**********************************************
Three years,even less is just a breeze,Gloria will have her time.
We all know that among the living ex presidents,a lot has been said and wala pa ding nangyari.
The cronies,kamag anak incorporated, the temporary band aid solutions to the various power companies,etc.
and all that is under the cloak of of EO464.
What is that again, that legal and political advocacies should be separated…..Say again?
rego on Fri, 14th Sep 2007 9:18 am
Oh yes, Manolo. The same way that Mike Aroyo has been investigated several times and come out clean. And yet hated only the Aroyos. And love Erap and Lacson.
To me, the salvation of this country does not lie on Erap or Gloria. Its on the people themselves. So on 2010 rather go with some who does’nt have Erap or Glorias influence. Some one like Martin Bautista or even Jesse Robredo.
manuelbuencamino on Fri, 14th Sep 2007 10:05 am
Rego,
Para naman circles of hell pa ang pinagpipilitan mo kay MLQ
eh kung pare-pareho lang sila si ikulong natin silang pareho.
Karl Garcia on Fri, 14th Sep 2007 10:18 am
If we go for the unheard balikbayans who has a vision then we can go for martin Bautista.
But if you want to see a guy who transformed naga to what ist is today then Jesse robredo.
But if we want transformation and adding keeping a town orderly and clean is what we want, then si Gordon na lang.
Unfortunately,vison transformation and maintaing order is not enough laging organization,logistics and machinery.
Until this changes,we can just dream na may reincarnation para maenjoy natin ang mag ganyang tipong presidente.Yung mga longshot tapos nanalo.
taga de cebu on Fri, 14th Sep 2007 10:34 am
KG: si lil dick gordon has so much arrogance ala ate glue mo.Futher,he is in the same mold as johny enrile,ed angara,miriam and joker.100% amboy pa!pang subic lang si lil dick.i should know.i worked with him before.
rego on Fri, 14th Sep 2007 11:09 am
Manuel B.
That is exactly my point! Yung mga recent entries ni Manolo lumalaba na umikot ikot lang tayo sa kay Erap at kay Gloria.
Simula’t sapul yan talaga ang stand ko sa mga nagyayari. Na parepareho lang ang mga yan. (And this doesn’t sit well with CVJ,too)
Ngayon, ano ang gusto kung mangayari pagdating nga 2010? (end ng term ni Gloria) Umalis na tayo dyan sa problema na dulot ng dalawang eto (erap at gloria). Hanggat maari wag ng pabalikin yan si Erap at si Gloria naman ay habulin sa mga kasalanan nya na pwedeng habulin. Tapos mag elect ng pangulo na walang impluwensya ang dalawang eto.
Karl Garcia on Fri, 14th Sep 2007 11:21 am
Ok tdc
ty for the heads up,sa tingin ko nga medyo may pagka dick head nga,na akala nya yung nagawa nya sa subic at wow philippines ay mag aangat sa atin.
pero pwede din pero sa tingin nya mag back to barracks lahat ng military madami pa syang kakaining bigas sa peace and order.
C mar roxas sana eh, pero basahin mo website nya parang
diesel ang ang tagal bago bumanat.
C lacson,human rights tapos me foreign accounts din daw.
c villar,sobrang maabilidad at yung las pinas nga tuld ng sinabi mo TDC puno ng mukha nya.
C noli nakikibanat na sa pardon,pardon at pro poor daw e ang relocation ng mga skwater di rin nya ma ispelling at mas matindi daw mag extort to nung hoy gising times.
c loren,sinumbulan na nyang maki picture sa mga kinidnap na sundalo ng mga npa,at madami pa siyang bagay na gusto sawsawan.
NO body is perfect,but we need a president on 2010. sa mga nababnggit ko si Mar na yata ang pina konting sabit,yung silence nya na nakakabingi na at ngayon biglang hihirit.
Tapos di pa natin alam kung si Noli na ng papatakbuhin,at kung anung balak ng admin.
rego on Fri, 14th Sep 2007 11:40 am
At saka manuel, Sang-ayon din ako yo na ikulong ang dapat makulong. Kung may kaslanan talga si Gloria dapat talag syan kasuhan kung hindi ngayon pagkatapos ng term. Kung mapapatunyang mag kasalanan eh dapat dins ysang makulong.
Ngayon Si Erap naman ay nakaulong at nahatulan. na and so bo it. Let the conviction of Erap be the start of getting all those politicians who abused while in power.
Hindi yung ibig iparating ni Manolo na, pagtapos mahatulan si Erap ibabalik na naman natin sya ating mga buhay bilang senador or o kaung nao magkatungkulang political. Nakalis na nga tayo sa kanyan ibabalik na naman. Eh di umikot ikot na lang tayo.
Karl Garcia on Fri, 14th Sep 2007 12:10 pm
“Hindi yung ibig iparating ni Manolo na, pagtapos mahatulan si Erap ibabalik na naman natin sya ating mga buhay bilang senador or o kaung nao magkatungkulang political. Nakalis na nga tayo sa kanyan ibabalik na naman. Eh di umikot ikot na lang tayo.”
Is this regarding Erap’s political life?
Kung after 3 years at nirush ng SC ang and all of the 13 justices penned in their thousand paged opinion,leading to a questionable decision on the sandigan,di ba ibabato lang ulit ito sa sandigan,to rectify their error?tama ba?
Ewan ko lang kung di pa pagod si Erap nun at sawa na sa political life nya by that time.
Or do you mean that he finds a way to post bail or wait for the opportunity when the possibility arises,and then run for senate?
medyo I can not understand,then paikot ikot nga lang tayo.
Let us not look for a messiah,let us find a way to have a say in nation building,di naman kailangan na maging ala RM na gawing open house ang malacanang,di nagmukhang santa claus ang presidente nyan.na tatanungin kung anung gusto natin.At di tayo kasya dun.
frombelow on Fri, 14th Sep 2007 12:11 pm
rego
yan ka naman. sino ba yan robredo at bautista na yan. Presidente ng bloggers pwede.
Be realistic naman. Pwedeng maganda ang intention nila at credentials. Perro may panalo ba. Let us see mother America. Do you think na ung mga presidential contenders talaga pinakamagaling sa kanila referring to hillary, obama etc. Surely mas may magaling na Americkano kaysa sa knila. pero pwede o kaya ba nilang manalo. be practical. Mas maganda siguro mamili tayo among mar, lacson and others na pwedeng suportahan. Kung walang mapili e wag ka na lang bumoto. Kesa naman mangarap ako ng gising.
inodoro ni emilie on Fri, 14th Sep 2007 12:20 pm
ang teleserye madaling tapusin kong tepok kaagad ang mga main cahracters. yung mga supporting cast na binanggit mo rego, nagpapahaba lang yun sa kwento.
here’s how a dream teleserye for me, entitled “so happy together”:
open credits: list of characters main protagonists and antagonists plus supporting roles streaming
opening scene: court room
judge: pare-pareho kayong mga magdurugas (addressing to you know who and she who cannot be named). guard, to the dungeon! [bangs the gavel; guard frisks the main characters as ordered]
[supporting casts rise up to object] your honor, pano na kami?!? (translation: wala na bang sequel for our cameo appearances para naman kami mapuna ni rego?)
judge: eh di sumama kayo!
[teleserye ends.]
[trailer insert] abangan: jocjoc, ang rotarian na pocpoc. katapat ng marimar.
ricelander on Fri, 14th Sep 2007 1:21 pm
MLQ3, thanks for the link.
And hey Dirk, I’m flattered.
See, I have no quarrel with politicians like Enrile or Angara, for example because they have no pretensions to being nice, clean people. They are as trapo as trapo could get.
Joker calls attention to himself because one time he called himself Mr. Graftbuster. then lately he proclaimed “kung bad ka lagot ka!”
Hypocrisy is made stark by loud self-righteous pronouncements. If he can’t help it because the Pidals are his friends, sana tumahimik na lang.
cvj on Fri, 14th Sep 2007 2:58 pm
Those who argue that similar cases should be filed against Arroyo and Company are conveniently forgetting that she is still in power. We were able to bring Erap to justice (for those of us who believe that) only because he was no longer in power. The same will hold true for Arroyo. Let’s not put the cart before the horse.
I’ve explained before why this doesn’t sit well with me. The ‘pare-pareho lang sila’ mantra is often used as an excuse for apathy and withdrawal from public concerns (for example, by Rego’s ’silent revolutionaries’) which only benefits the status quo , particularly those in power. And as i said avoe, just as with Erap, if want to let justice takes its course, it’s important to remove Arroyo et al from power.
pinoy on Fri, 14th Sep 2007 3:51 pm
ricelander,
You mentioned the key word which I am hesitant to apply to the man but you said it and I have to agree. At this point, the evidences are all in. The verdict: Joker is a hypocrite.
DevilsAdvc8 on Fri, 14th Sep 2007 4:59 pm
frombelow, be realistic? how about not trying to be a hypocrite? obviously Rego and I do not like any of the current crop of presidentiables. and you’re right, this time, not only will I not vote when no good candidate runs for presidency, I’ll also leave the country for good.
Wala na talagang saysay kung ang gusto mong tulungan eh ayaw tulungan ang kanilang sarili.
Rego, agree with you. Para tayong mga tanga nagpipilit sa 2 choices lang. Between the Arroyos and the Estradas of this land’s politics. At me comebacking Marcoses pa! Dyos na mahabagin talaga…
Me obvious na matitino naman, ayaw suportahan kesyo di makatotohonan. Self-fulfilling kasi ang ganyang defeatist attitude. Di na ako makikipag argumento pa. Para kong kinakausap ang isang fatalist at hinihikayat syang umaksyon para baguhin ang buhay nya.
Sabi ng fatalist?
What for? I have no control over my life.
Milyon ang fatalist na Pilipino. Translatable sana ‘to into a winning vote, pero, frombelow is the perfect example. Kaya Rego, be realistic! Ika nga ni Benigs, GET REAL!
ricelander on Fri, 14th Sep 2007 5:10 pm
Inidoro, galing nyan. tawa ako ng tawa. Lalo sa parteng “Jocjoc: Ang Rotarian na Pocpoc.
Pinoy, I hated using the word, it slipped…
Jeg on Fri, 14th Sep 2007 5:48 pm
cvj: The ‘pare-pareho lang sila’ mantra is often used as an excuse for apathy and withdrawal from public concerns (for example, by Rego’s ’silent revolutionaries’) which only benefits the status quo , particularly those in power.
But this brings up an interesting what-if. What if more people decided to withdraw from participating in this country’s electoral process and followed rego’s path? Indeed what if rego’s path became the path of the majority? What if we all stopped voting? A withdrawal of support from the population. Rego (and Devils) says, ‘Give us the non-trapos and we’ll participate. If you don’t then we withdraw our participation.’ Civil disobedience worked before. Rego (and Devils) isnt withdrawing from public concerns. He’s just withdrawing from the electoral processes. If a majority starts to think like him, change could really come, dont you think?
Karl Garcia on Fri, 14th Sep 2007 6:08 pm
“I opposed his being thrown in jail upon the filing of charges.â€
“Had Estrada been left in the comfort of his North Greenhills home, placed, perhaps, under house arrest, then carted to and from the venue of his trial, you wouldn’t have had Edsa Tres. I wish I could locate Fr. Bernas’s column where he pointed out that Estrada’s status as a prisoner was sui generis, and thus couldn’t properly be compared to that of an ordinary felon. His legal argument was made long after the Estrada arrest, if I recall correctly.”
*****************
Re: Tanay instead of Munti…
I know, ERAP is in a league of his own being a former president.
Don’t worry soon to be ex current prexy:you will be given the same courtesy,I guess you have all the bases covered just in case it also happens to you.
*********
Re: sui generis:
I too believe that a president should have just been given a house arrest,even as setting a precedence.
Edsa Tres:
I recall an explanation by you on what edsa tres was.
mlq3 :
karl, my personal view was that Edsa 3 was the armed component of what the 1998 elections were: a revolt by the poor, etc. The only reason Edsa 3 failed was that its leaders disappeared just when the fighting began.
November 9th, 2005 at 9:23 am
That was when I was comparing EDSA tres to French riots.
*********************
Now one of my suspected leaders of Eda3 is now included in the current circle of influence Joker,as far as Taga de Cebu is concerned,mas matindi pa ke Mirriam maging paru paru at hunyango ito,the one the only and the original JPE.
Dirk Pitt on Fri, 14th Sep 2007 8:11 pm
“Hypocrisy is made stark by loud self-righteous pronouncements. If he( Joker Arroyo) can’t help it because the Pidals are his friends, sana tumahimik na lang.”
Tama, sana tumahimik na lang; pero parang nakakaiyak. Many of us look up to those who fought Marcos as principled men. As years went by, they traversed their own different paths. What happened to Joker Arroyo, I think, is that it shows nobody really is incorruptible.
taga de cebu on Fri, 14th Sep 2007 8:20 pm
In my view ,Mr Roxas appears to be the most decent of the “presidentiables” in 2010.His main problem is being “spineless”(always takes the safe position).I hope Korina makes him a little more brave.Sayang,parang si Rated K has “balls” hindi si Mr.Palengke.
Mar will be tested when his “defining moment” comes.
At the moment,he is is being presented like a “consumer brand” with a slogan (Mr Palengke),a package( always in blue shirt)and even a jingle(“hoy,hoy”). No heart,no soul.
taga de cebu on Fri, 14th Sep 2007 8:30 pm
A must reading for future historians:
“Joker Arroyo: PIPOL’S DRAGON- PAG BAD KA, LAGOT KA!”
“A case study of the dramatic transformation of a fearless human rights advocate during the cruel Marcos dictatorship years to a rabid defender of Mr. and Mrs Pidal in his old age”.
grd on Fri, 14th Sep 2007 8:54 pm
“A must reading for future historians:
“Joker Arroyo: PIPOL’S DRAGON- PAG BAD KA, LAGOT KA!â€
“A case study of the dramatic transformation of a fearless human rights advocate during the cruel Marcos dictatorship years to a rabid defender of Mr. and Mrs Pidal in his old ageâ€.
the sad part is, a lot of people still believe in him. they chose him against the likes of martin bautista (in the past even ms. haydee yorac was rejected by the same masa). so, to those people threatening to leave the country or not participate in the electoral process, i think you should start packing your things now. the changes or the awakening of the peple that you’re hoping for will not happen soon. at least not in your lifetime.
justice in waiting on Fri, 14th Sep 2007 9:06 pm
With such weak institutions like ours, everyone in position no matter how principled can easily be corrupted, knowing the the odds of getting accountable for such crimes and wrongdoing are in their favors. so far, we only have convicted a very few, why we still have chavit singson, a very obvious one, a crusading senator of lacson, alleged to have committed extra judicial “justice” during his tenure and even sitting in congress, we have jueting lords, running governments in the provinces and even warlords with their own armies running their own semi-republics.
you can have any president, but their terms is only 6 years and the institutions if remained as weak the president no matter how good and principled is only good during his or her term and what about after? yes, it is the whole cabangle that is wrong, fix the whole system from bottom up or from up to bottom and you can put even anyone of us bloggers in malacanang and it will remain as strong, or even Erap back, or if you want even Gloria…
pinoy on Fri, 14th Sep 2007 9:19 pm
rice, taga,
GMA is a consumate corrupter.
Men of reputation for integrity succumbed to Gloria’s temptaion.
Bribed Ka Blas with Foreign affairs post.
Ditto with Teofisto Guingona, though he made a redemptive u-turn in time.
Gary Teves used to be esteemed until he join Gloria’s cabinet.
Joker Arroyo used to project INTEGRITY (that’s in caps). But now after, in some misterious Gloria ways, he succumbed to the big “C” he lost it. He hasn’t become a big joke yet, has he? Tragic ain’t it.
taga de cebu on Fri, 14th Sep 2007 9:21 pm
GRD: how about the young ,idealistic GO senators like Escudero and Cayetano who aligned with the likes of Enrile,Angara,Gordon,Miriam,Lapid,Revilla and Arroyo?Those two little shits make me feel like throwing up too!They gave up their “idealism” for petty ambitions!ay naku…
taga de cebu on Fri, 14th Sep 2007 9:26 pm
pinoy:tama ka!typical politicians.Ate glue knows that every one in politics has a price!
Objectively speaking,I really think Tita Cory has always been steadfast in her values!I am proud of her!
-Never compromised with her cousin,Boss Danding
-Asked Ate Glue to resign.
-Her son,Noynoy remains with the minority in the Senate.
DevilsAdvc8 on Fri, 14th Sep 2007 9:37 pm
Joker: Pag bad ka, lagot ka!
Eh pano yan, si GMA ang bad? hehehe.
taga de cebu on Fri, 14th Sep 2007 9:43 pm
DevilsAdv8:
At least GMA has been very consistent right from the start:as transactional leader who exploits opportunities.A cheap copy cat of Marcos.
“An maluwas sa nguso, gikan iyan sa puso ”
But Joker was my idol!!!! A revered freedom fighter against Marcos.what happened along the way????
pinoy on Fri, 14th Sep 2007 9:48 pm
taga,
One very serious effect or symptom of being afflicted with the big “C” – corrption – is moral blindness. Now doesn’t Joker see Gloria as “the best defender of the constitution”. Of course, Gloria doesn’t need anybody to say that to absolutely believe that she really, really is “the best defender of the constitution. Blindness, moral blindness is the effect of corruption. Gloria isn’t bad in Joker’s eyes. Kaya’t hindi lagot si Gloria kay Joker.
grd on Fri, 14th Sep 2007 9:58 pm
continuation of my earlier post:
unless of course you do the patriotic way and help educate or awaken the masa instead of raising the white flag and surrender. shouting here in the bloggesphere will not help either. people here are wide awake already unlike the masa.
taga de cebu on Fri, 14th Sep 2007 9:59 pm
Dear JOKER( hope you read this blog)
It pains me to write about you now.In my mind,you belong that revered group of heroes who fought for our freedom during the darkest days of the Dictatorship:Joker Arroyo,Ninoy Aquino,Lorenzo Tanada,Jose w.Diokno,Chino Roces,Napoleon Rama,Jose Burgos of Malaya and othere brave souls!
You clearly do NOT belong to the group of Enrile, Angara,Miriam,Gordon,Lapid and Revilla or the senior apologists like COMMISSIONer Abalos,Gonzales and Apostol.
Quo vadis Joker? Is it too late to change gears now?
taga de cebu on Fri, 14th Sep 2007 10:07 pm
ept 28, we will celebrate the birthday of the “Common Man “President,Disodao Macapagal.
Diosdado Macapagal, had long appealed to the electorate as a tao (common man) who never forgot his humble beginnings. “I come from the poor. Let me reap for you the harvest of the poor. Let us break the chain of poverty. Let me lead you to prosperity!” he cried at his campaign whistle stops.
GLORIA:
“I have sat at the sumptuous tables of power, but I have not run away with the silverware. ”
Diosdao Macapagal
taga de cebu on Fri, 14th Sep 2007 10:08 pm
Sept 28 is the birth anniversary of the Common Man President
grd on Fri, 14th Sep 2007 10:20 pm
“GRD: how about the young ,idealistic GO senators like Escudero and Cayetano who aligned with the likes of Enrile,Angara,Gordon,Miriam,Lapid,Revilla and Arroyo?Those two little shits make me feel like throwing up too!They gave up their “idealism†for petty ambitions!ay naku…â€
taga (you forgot to mention jinggoy), have they? other than supporting villar as the senate’s head (i believe the opposition fuck this off why those four move away, blame it on those others who have too much ambitions in 2010 trying to impose their will on villar), are they now supportive of gma’s policies or became friendly w/ her? last time i follow they are still very much critical of gloria and in the thick of the fight against the wrongdoings of gma’s administration. unlike of course your idol joker (whom i voted also).
taga de cebu on Fri, 14th Sep 2007 10:27 pm
GRD:Jingoy is a hopeless case.I never considered him an “idealistic”person.Erap junior. Villar has always been “Deal or No Deal”
But Cayetano and Escudero are different.They “appeared” idealistic to me.But can you imagine ignoring the will of the electorate to make the Senate a bastion of the opposition and now forming the “Majority bloc” with ENRILE.ANGARA,MIRIAM,GORDON,LAPID and REVILLA.Excuse me,while I puke when I I mention these two young shits!
taga de cebu on Fri, 14th Sep 2007 10:28 pm
“I want ordinary people to enjoy a decent standard of living, with ever increasing security, comfort and joy.â€
Gloria Macapagal Arroyo
Gloria,where you ever sincere?
taga de cebu on Fri, 14th Sep 2007 10:31 pm
GRD:the net effect of the alignment of VILLAR /CAYETANO /ESCUDERO and ERAP Jr. with Administration Senators was to give the KEY chairmanships of Senate Committees to Lady Miriam,Johnny,Ed and Dick.
supremo on Fri, 14th Sep 2007 10:48 pm
“rego :
And another coincidence is that the execution has to be carried out at the height of impeachment and Dacer left his home with an envelop carrying documents against Erap.
And that mysterious journalist must be soooooo powerful that we can pin him down. We can only get Aquino and Mancao.”
How can you be so sure that you are right and I am wrong about who killed Dacer? Because what I said is not in the newspaper? There are other ways to know the truth.
taga de cebu on Fri, 14th Sep 2007 10:52 pm
“I want to be a good president, help me be a good presidentâ€
President Gloria Arroyo
Can we help her please
grd on Fri, 14th Sep 2007 10:54 pm
taga: whatabout the blue ribbon committee? and what about this committee of the whole investigating again the hello garci scandal? the way i see it villar & co were not pressured by admin senators. otherwise, binasura na eto.
taga de cebu on Fri, 14th Sep 2007 10:57 pm
GRD:I hope to GOD I am dead wrong about Escudero and Cayetano.We will see.
DevilsAdvc8 on Fri, 14th Sep 2007 11:02 pm
taga, the only contemporary politicians I idolized were Roco and Robredo. the former is now dead, while the latter is leaving office after his current term.
Cayetano and Escudero. I never harbored illusions they were idealistic, or even incorruptible. Children of dynasts, I epected them to be more TRAPO than their parents.
I voted for them only because they seemed to hate GMA and her family to the core. they passed requirement no. 1 lol.
taga de cebu on Fri, 14th Sep 2007 11:04 pm
I want justice to be so pervasive that it will be taken for granted, just as injustice is taken for granted today.
Gloria Macapagal Arroyo
taga de cebu on Fri, 14th Sep 2007 11:10 pm
DevilAdvc8:
“Mas nadadakop tulos an putikon kisa pilay”
Naloko tayo ni Escudero at Cayetano.We should have seen the signs..CHIZ is the son of long-time Marcos ally Salvador Escudero.Si Allan is no different from his namesake in KBL.
Manila Bay Watch on Fri, 14th Sep 2007 11:21 pm
Taga de cebu: “I have sat at the sumptuous tables of power, but I have not run away with the silverware. †-Diosdao Macapagal
If true, Pres Macapagal forgot to add, â€But my daughter will run away with the china!†So very a propos, don’t you think?
taga de cebu on Fri, 14th Sep 2007 11:22 pm
This blog is too serious;let’s take a break with this very old Cebuano joke:
1st night-Gloria Pidal wears see through dress….Jose Pidal didn’t react…
2nd night, Gloria wears t-back…Jose Pidal still deadma…
3rd night, Gloria Pidal all naked…Jose Pidal said; Unsa na imong gisoot? kunot2x lagi na?
taga de cebu on Fri, 14th Sep 2007 11:24 pm
Manila Bay watch:tou·ché
rego on Sat, 15th Sep 2007 12:11 am
rego,
yan ka naman. sino ba yan robredo at bautista na yan. Presidente ng bloggers pwede.
—————————————-
Frombelow,
OA ka naman. Example lang po ang dalawang yan sa tipo ng Pangulo na nais kung mahalal after 2010. My main contention is: I want a president after 2010 to be somebody that can stand by himself and indepedent enough from any influence of Erap and Gloria. Claro Amigo?
taga de cebu on Sat, 15th Sep 2007 12:53 am
US ambassador Kristie Kenney on Friday reiterated her call for transparency in Philippine government dealings as the controversy on the National Broadband Network (NBN) contract with ZTE Corp. continues to swirl, ABS-CBN News reported.
What will ate glue do now?
pinoy on Sat, 15th Sep 2007 1:19 am
MLQ3: “i participated in efforts that brought together left, right, and middle pro and anti edsa dos groups, to oppose the president. but among the many reasons those efforts failed, was the presence of estrada forces and the left in people power efforts, a reality we have to acknowledge. a significant number couldn’t get past seeing edsa 1, edsa dos, and edsa tres leaders arm-in-arm.â€
True, the ‘reds’ turned off and turned away a ‘significant number’ from the rallies. I was concerned about the ‘red factor’ vis-à -vis the ‘silent majority’, worried about the popular movements’ vulnerability to ‘red scare’ propaganda which I had anticipated could be a swing factor for GMA, especially with the military.
There was/is a ‘leadership vacuum’ for the ‘silent majority’, the sector from which we hope a ‘significant number’ would come to build up the critical mass.
Months before the ‘hello garci’ crisis, recognizing the absence of a rallying figure but aware of the need to mobilize the silent majority to move into the political vacuum, I suggested to a couple of leaders from the progressive bloc – center, left of center — to take the lead by presenting a specific political agenda that could galvanize and mobilize the silent majority and emphasized that they distinguish themselves from the left.
Middle-lead mass movements, like Black and White, imho, must evolve by immersing and merging itself with the masses — connecting with masses in their own terms, words, angst and hopes the way Erap did but this time with a vision and a sense of urgency — the survival of thousands of Filipinos are at stake each day GMA stays in power.
Politically, at this point, the challenge remains, who will present a simple viable specific political agenda that can gather support from the silent majority to resolve the lingering crises.
Bencard on Sat, 15th Sep 2007 1:22 am
“The same way that Mike Aroyo has been investigated several times and come out clean. And yet hated only the Aroyos and love Erap and Lacson.” Rego.
right on, rego. there’s so much hypocrisy going on in this blog. how can this country go forward if a conclusive finding, beyond reasonable doubt, of heinous plunder committed by a president using his office, could not generate a feeling of outrage against that person among some apparently “reasonable” and educated citizens. the limited understanding of the so-called masa (who are ruled by emotion rather than reason) is understandable. but the continuous effort by people, not proven to be insane, more particularly in the profit-seeking media, to defend and justify the convict really boggles the mind.
btw, the immense plundered wealth that will be recovered will be a real boon to philippine economy. collected and handled properly, think of the number of school houses, textbooks, rural hospitals, micro-financing, and medicine and food for the real needy and disabled, among others, that the money can be put to use.
i agree with mlq3’s restated idea to scrutinize all ill-gotten wealth of each and every public official (their relatives, cronies and dummies), local or national, appointed or elected, including the military, as soon as they leave office, if not sooner during their term. not only will it show that corruption does not pay, it will deter those who seek political office to amass fortunes.
“If a Supreme Court decision is not unanimous, Erap will be acquitted. Must be acquitted. That is the way our Justice works.” DJB.
wrong, djb. Sec.11, rule 56 of the current rules of court states, in relevant part, that: “where the court en banc is equally divided in opinion, or the necessary majority cannot be had, x x x; in appealed cases, the judgment or order appealed from SHALL STAND AFFIRMED.” (underscoring mine).
Bencard on Sat, 15th Sep 2007 2:30 am
do you see the clear pattern, rego? these people we are talking about try to water-down the gravity of estrada’s conviction, deflecting it by focusing on the alleged “anomalies” of pgma’s administration. all kinds of appeal to the emotion, e.g., the list of “sins” compiled by djb, etc. which remain to be tested for legal truth; the nauseating repetition of the repudiated charges of gma’s “legitimacy” as president; the idiotic comparison to marcos; the laughable claim that the country is in “danger” every day that gma is president (danger from what?); the use of the cliche “kicking a man who is down”; the wild claim that the sandigan’s decision was a “political act”; the implication that the courts are beholden to gma; the stupid threat to “prosecute” gma after she leaves office in 2010 (prosecute for what?), etc., etc., are all designed to hide and deodorize estrada’s stench of depravity so they can continue lionizing him as a “hero” without thumbing their nose. what a sorry bunch!
cvj on Sat, 15th Sep 2007 2:46 am
Jeg, sa palagay mo tatalab ang dedma sa mga politiko natin?
jaxius on Sat, 15th Sep 2007 3:23 am
Bencard,
Wrong. The provision applicable is Section 3 of Rule 125:
SEC. 3. Decision if opinion is equally divided.
– When the Supreme Court en banc is equally divided in opinion or the necessary majority cannot be had on whether to acquit the appellant, the case shall again be deliberated upon and if no decision is reached after re-deliberation, the judgment of conviction of lower court SHALL BE REVERSED AND THE ACCUSED ACQUITTED.
grd on Sat, 15th Sep 2007 3:55 am
americans are hypocrites!
remember what happened to nixon? how come he was pardoned even before he can be charged in court? and why there was no feeling of outrage amongst the people over his pardon? is that american justice? or was it simply because nixon was a former president the reason for that leniency in the application of the law?
IMHO, estrada being impeached, toppled down and then found guilty of plunder (properties confiscated)has taken enough punishment. the humiliation he and his family has to face for the rest of their lives would be an abomination. this will be forever be marked in the history of the country not even the marcosses has been found guilty of any crime. indeed putting estrada in prison will make him a martyr.
Bencard on Sat, 15th Sep 2007 4:25 am
nixon went down in total limbo, a completely broken man, never to recover in spite of a few ultra conservative zealots’ puny attempt to rewrite history. yet, he was not accused of having stolen even a buck from the national treasury, much less convicted of it.
estrada, a martyr? my foot!
jaxius, if that is so, i stand corrected. thanks. still i don’t see a requirement of unanimity, as djb professes.
rego on Sat, 15th Sep 2007 6:56 am
“IMHO, estrada being impeached, toppled down and then found guilty of plunder (properties confiscated)has taken enough punishment. the humiliation he and his family has to face for the rest of their lives would be an abomination. this will be forever be marked in the history of the country not even the marcosses has been found guilty of any crime. indeed putting estrada in prison will make him a martyr.”
—————————————————
if that is the case. martyr na rin si Hubert Webb dahil sa katakot takot na humiliation na sinapit ng familya nya. And How about, Jalosjos,. And what about teh ordinary citiznes na lumbag sa batas nakulong at napahiya na rin yung kanilang mga pamilya.
Spat na ba ang kahihiyan ng sinapit ng pamilya ng lumabag na batas bilang kabyaran ng kanilang kaslanan.
Eh kung ganyang ganyan na rin lang eh e di idemolish na natin ang mga presohan. At ang kaparasuhan ng bawat lumabag sa batas eh yung ipahiya na lang ang kani kanilang pamilya….
Samantala, samantala , yung mga pamilya ni Erap eh nag papasasa doon sa 3.2 million Velarde account at nagpapsarap sa magagrangmansion na hindi naman nila pera ang ginsatos pagpagawa.
rego on Sat, 15th Sep 2007 7:01 am
Oh yes bencard, I see the pattern clearly. Kaya na nahihilo at nalilito ako kung anong klaseng tao ba talaga etong sila DJB, Manolo and the rest. Now I have this huge doubts on the sincerity of their advocacy for good government, better Philipinnes at kun anu ano pang advocacies.
mlq3 on Sat, 15th Sep 2007 8:37 am
several factors are at work here, and you can ignore them if you wish, but that doesn’t mean the factors aren’t at work.
1. why public opinion, on the whole, agrees estrada was guilty of illegally amassing wealth, but doesn’t view his conviction as a victory of justice, requires explanation. my view is the reason’s pretty simple, which is the popular conception of what would constitute justice doesn’t match what legal professionals and the upper classes thinks is justice.
2. simply as a function of age and being out of power, estrada’s influence is on the wane. if you assume the surveys are right, and that about 30% of the public still holds him in some sort of high regard, of course it also means 70% don’t. but, and here’s the big but: as more people disengage from the political system, and the system itself produces less and not more inspiring leaders, then the fight for power starts resembling what it’s like in america: not something decided by the larger whole, but a battle which is won by committed minorities. in which case, even if the objective truth is 70% of the public considers estrada a has-been, discredited, a convicted felon, etc., in the next election, the 30% that might still take its cues from estrada might actually matter more, than the 70% that don’t look to him for anything.
3. too much water under the bridge has passed to ignore negative impact of the president. she may be feared by most, and admired by a solid minority (the 25% committed to her through thick and thin i’ve been pointing out for years), she will find ways, as every president has, to play a role in the selection of her successor. but the obstacles in her way are serious. one thing we shouldn’t underestimate is the reality that blood debts are now involved, and it doesn’t matter if some won’t acknowledge those debts are hers to pay. after all obviously it’s not her admirers who will try to collect on those debts. aside from those wanting to collect on blood debts, there is a significant chunk who will simply demand tit for tat: whatever estrada went through, his successor will have to go through, in facing charges in court. and whether you won’t see it or not, compared to what estrada was convicted for -receiving tribute from jueteng lords and benefitting from stock market manipulation- the controversial deals of the arroyo years make estrada’s monkey business look like peanuts.
4. perception is everything in politics. how do you measure perception? two ways: surveys or votes. even if you assume both means are tainted these days, it only means the measuring is more imperfect than it should be, but it still gives a general idea of where people stand. neither estrada nor arroyo will be the end-all or be-all of politics in the coming years, but they will have a significant impact.
manuelbuencamino on Sat, 15th Sep 2007 8:38 am
Thd Erap conviction failed to produce the desired result – closure on the issue of the politics regarding his descent and Gloria’s ascent.
The division between right thinking men i.e. bencard and co. vs. DJB and co has not been healed.
The smell of the verdict either stank like shit or smelled like roses depending on one’s political inclination.
We remain divided as ever. Gettibg rid of Erap didn’t solve anything. Maybe getting rid of Gloria will. Gloria has tried everything to reunite our nation. Maybe stepping down might do it.
justice in waiting on Sat, 15th Sep 2007 9:06 am
There is no question about Estrada guilt as charged and convicted, the issue that most of his supporters and even the ‘intellectuals’ are putting forward was the way it was handled. And also how His Vice President, now the incumbent President, conspired with others, including the Military to overthrow Him outside the Process as provided in the Constitution of the land. That in itself would have thrown out all cases agaist him and the go back to the illegality of the process. And it was established after the Fact that Gloria Arroyo had a hand behind the Conspiracy. As for Gloria, her sins have not seen the court yet, it will come, justice is waiting…
rego on Sat, 15th Sep 2007 10:05 am
If only Erap behave well while he is the president then Gloria ascencion to power may never happen. Erap may even be president for life.
Personally I believe that whatever headaches we have now all started with Erap abuses while in power….
mlq3 on Sat, 15th Sep 2007 10:15 am
rego, i think it began earlier. his victory in 1998 wasn’t impossible to prevent. an overwhelming majority (60%) didn’t want him to be president. except that all those opposed to him couldn’t get their act together. personally, i think the problem began in 1992: six years after edsa 1, the old marcos forces almost won. in fact, if you add up the votes of danding cojuangco and imelda in 1992, it would have beaten any of the other candidates hands down. if they’d patched up their differences, they would have reclaimed power; as it was, in 1998 they finally did it.
rego on Sat, 15th Sep 2007 10:19 am
1. why public opinion, on the whole, agrees estrada was guilty of illegally amassing wealth, but doesn’t view his conviction as a victory of justice, requires explanation. my view is the reason’s pretty simple, which is the popular conception of what would constitute justice doesn’t match what legal professionals and the upper classes thinks is justice.
——————–
I have a different view. This issue has been dragging on for years so public interest has been waning and waning. Eraps conviction or acquital doesn’t impact the lives of majority of teh peopl. It only matters to the drumbeaters of of Erap and those politicans who wanted to use the Erap fanatics for the political gain.
And Manolo, I have a strong perception that you are using Erap to get back at Gloria. You have a very personal issue with Gloria and you are confusing even disguising as public interest.
And DJB? He has a very personal issue with Davide and using Erap to get back at Davide.
OK lang sana yan kung linawin nyo lang na personal issue nyo yan. Ang hindi magan eh yung gawing nyong public issue yung personal issue nyo.
rego on Sat, 15th Sep 2007 10:30 am
2. simply as a function of age and being out of power, estrada’s influence is on the wane. if you assume the surveys are right, and that about 30% of the public still holds him in some sort of high regard, of course it also means 70% don’t. but, and here’s the big but: as more people disengage from the political system, and the system itself produces less and not more inspiring leaders, then the fight for power starts resembling what it’s like in america: not something decided by the larger whole, but a battle which is won by committed minorities. in which case, even if the objective truth is 70% of the public considers estrada a has-been, discredited, a convicted felon, etc., in the next election, the 30% that might still take its cues from estrada might actually matter more, than the 70% that don’t look to him for anything.
————————————
Eto you pino point out ni Jeg in his reply to CVJ about the about the “pare pareho lang sila” .
Erap is waning and Gloria is becoming irrelevant to more and more poeple. Yet we continue talking politics in terms of Erap and Gloria. Result? More and more people are dis engaging away from the political exercise. Erap and Gloria doesn’t excite people anymore. We need to start talking in term of the future politcal figures or future leaders that should draw public interest. And my suggestion that figure should have no traces of Erap or Gloria. Kasi kung parehong pareho rin wa effect pa rin sa public yan.
mlq3 on Sat, 15th Sep 2007 10:36 am
rego, please explain to me how the personal can be separated from the political? at the heart of every issue is something you deeply care about, positively or negatively. it is what makes you do something. you will see, for example, that every statement anyone makes about any public official, pro or con, starts with whether they like the official or not. what the basis for that like or dislike can be very mixed: either out of ignorance (nothing more or less, maybe, than the way that person acts or talks) or an understanding of the issues: the positions on issues the official takes, the policies and management style of the official, and how they impact society at large.
you will recall i’ve said often enough that politics is as much about personalities as it is about issues. review my reasons in 05 for deciding to go against the president. they were reached as part of a process unique to my circumstances as someone who’d served and supported her.
rego on Sat, 15th Sep 2007 10:41 am
3. too much water under the bridge has passed to ignore negative impact of the president. she may be feared by most, and admired by a solid minority (the 25% committed to her through thick and thin i’ve been pointing out for years), she will find ways, as every president has, to play a role in the selection of her successor. but the obstacles in her way are serious. one thing we shouldn’t underestimate is the reality that blood debts are now involved, and it doesn’t matter if some won’t acknowledge those debts are hers to pay. after all obviously it’s not her admirers who will try to collect on those debts. aside from those wanting to collect on blood debts, there is a significant chunk who will simply demand tit for tat: whatever estrada went through, his successor will have to go through, in facing charges in court. and whether you won’t see it or not, compared to what estrada was convicted for -receiving tribute from jueteng lords and benefitting from stock market manipulation- the controversial deals of the arroyo years make estrada’s monkey business look like peanuts.
——————————–
And so be it…sabi ko nag kung may dapat habulin kay Gloria after her term eh di habulin . Kung mapaptunayan lahat eh di ikulong. We did it with Erap , there is no reason why we cannot do it with Gloria. But to say that that Estrada’s monkey business look like peanuts is a pure ennuedo or speculation.. In the first place Aroyo Era deals doesn’t always translate to Gloria doing an Erap himself. It could also be that the lower level of corruption may not go all the way up to Gloria. Mik emay have a cut or not. we odnt know. So malalman lang natin eo kung naifile na ang mga chrages sa korte.
Another thing we should also take into considerations of the years of service of Erap and Gloria. Erap stayed for like 2 or 3 years. Can you imagine if he stayed for 10 years like Gloria?
rego on Sat, 15th Sep 2007 10:45 am
4. perception is everything in politics. how do you measure perception? two ways: surveys or votes. even if you assume both means are tainted these days, it only means the measuring is more imperfect than it should be, but it still gives a general idea of where people stand. neither estrada nor arroyo will be the end-all or be-all of politics in the coming years, but they will have a significant impact.
———————————
But perception is influenced by so many factors. The media has tremendous influence on public perception. They can very well make bad look good and the good look bad.
mlq3 on Sat, 15th Sep 2007 10:50 am
rego, the flaw i see in your comment is, charges flow out of an assumption: when cases were filed against estrada, people didn’t say, “let us investigate and see maybe, perhaps, who knows, something might be fishy.” they said, “hey, he took x, stole y, looted z.” that’s where the impeachment then the court stepped in, to determine if this was so. so at present, the accusations against the president are at a similar point, except it will certainly take a lot more work, because to be blunt about it, estrada was uniquely crass and obvious about his misdeeds. in a sense that can help explain why estrada was doomed, legally, in 6 years, the marcoses are still fighting it out: fm was, after all, not only a brilliant lawyer but hired brilliant lawyers and didn’t trust local banks.
but baka isipin mo naman na masyado akong antipatiko pagdating sa mga comments mo. honestly it’s people like you, rego, who keep everyone else grounded. and if you weren’t pointing out the need to focus on establishing a new basis for whatever administration comes next, yung mga engaged on one side or another of the present political fence might just ignore the coming challenges until it’s too late. so kelangan talaga i-point out na hindi alpha at omega ng buhay sila gma and jee.
pinoy on Sat, 15th Sep 2007 11:05 am
manuelbuencamino :
“Thd Erap conviction failed to produce the desired result” ??
Donno what GMA desires but it wouldn’t be far off from having Erap imprisoned for life. The decision – acquitted for perjury, guilty of plunder — is the perfect combination favoring Gloria.
Is it the desired result you meant desirable and good for the people?
pinoy on Sat, 15th Sep 2007 11:10 am
mlq3 :
“several factors are at work here, and you can ignore them if you wish, but that doesn’t mean the factors aren’t at work.”
Would it help if we identify and distinguish malefactors and benevolent-factors? So we can examine which side we’re really on in the equation? How about the core corrutption called social apathy? I think it’s what our national malaise is all about.
hvrds on Sat, 15th Sep 2007 11:15 am
Retribution, deterrence and restitution. It is interesting that the culture here looks at the economics first of material benefits when one is the aggrieved in a crime. Amongst the vast majority who are poor when a breadwinner is lost to crime the first thoughts that come out from the survivors is their economic survival. How are they to survive?
More advanced societies went through the necessary evolution of retribution, deterrence and then restitution in establishing their justice system. Public executions and public humiliation were the norm. In tribal societies banishment was the most extreme form of punishment.
King John at Runnymede signed the Magna Carta under duress and this served as the foundation for fiscal policy, representative government and trial by one’s peers for generations later. Cromwell imposed the power of parliament over the king and cut the Kings head off. (Lesson: share power or literally loose your head)
Off course we have the French Revolution where the guillotine was put to work cutting off heads. (mostly of the royals)
Filipinos have been decapitated in Saudi Arabia where it is still the acceptable form of execution.
Common use of property in England was replaced by the Enclosure laws which instituted private use of property by the royals.
Here in the Philippines the concept of property rights in a culture that is still bound by familial traditions of common property that defers to the so called royals. Hence the very weak and almost no appreciation for property rights and the social contract and the concept of “no taxes without representation.” For the few that have taxable income they have no choice but for the vast majority they are not conscious that they pay taxes whether they like it or not.
Hence in the political arena when their champion gets elected they expect to share in the booty. They become part of the extended family and expect to share. The same goes for every political office.
A perfect example is this ZTE deal. Having a name like de Venecia automatically opens doors that are not available to most other people. As for Abalos his special skills at the COMELEC gave him the necessary currency to believe that he could do anything with impunity.
This familial tradition permeates all institutions in the country. Most “colorum” vehicles are operated by relatives of people who work in the institution that is supposed to regulate them. The same goes with Customs. The more successful brokers are those with relatives or classmates that work with customs.
In a recent drinking session with some foreign businessman the thread came out that the reason this country is going no where is the fact that that almost anyone can break the law. The idea of retribution and deterrence is precluded by economic considerations.
You have the semblance of a judicial system but the reality of the social format still makes it akin to ramming a square peg into a round hole.
We are centuries away from deposing a president for lying.
Nixon resigned rather than face the prospect of being tried for obstruction of justice. It would have opened a can of worms.
Bush I pardoned Defense Secretary Casper Wienburger and five others for their role in Iran-Contra. If the charges were to have proceeded their role in the organization of the death squads would have arisen. Once again a bigger can of worms would have opened. Most of those who were to be charged are now in positions of power in America’s War for Americanism. They almost always have high positions in corporations who make most of their daily bread supplying the military industrial complex.
It would be very hard to bring them to trial for plundering the world.
mlq3 on Sat, 15th Sep 2007 11:54 am
rego’s comments made a lightbulb switch on over my head. in a siege, both the besieged and those laying siege end up drowning in their own filth.
hvrds on Sat, 15th Sep 2007 12:08 pm
A simple case study of plunder and crony capitalism by legislation in sophisticated America.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/09/14/AR2007091401549.html?hpid=opinionsbox1
DevilsAdvc8 on Sat, 15th Sep 2007 12:35 pm
hvrds, you have essentially captured the root of the problem. our most cherished values and traditions, are in essence, also our downfall. close family ties, and utang-na-loob, these values, taken to the extreme, practiced without distinguishing between when it is right and when it is wrong to practice them, has led to what you have described. those in power, open the doors for family and friends to break the own law themselves. and even the principled is embattled to refuse friends and families. it takes a truly courageous man “to stand up to friends even as he stand up agst enemies.”
Bencard, you have to exclude me when you say “these people.” I am not one of those who beatify ERAP bec I hate GMA more. I want them both (and all their accomplices) to be jailed. And as you REgo said, the insistence of some to remove GMA by putting back the ERAP loyalists or ERAP himself stinks, and pushes me to disengage from (not only politics) but the whole country itself.
Kung pare-pareho rin lang naman sila, at wala na tayo choice, why choose at all? kung may pera lang ako, di ako na sana tumakbo nang sarili ko (barring the age requirement)
pinoy on Sat, 15th Sep 2007 12:47 pm
mlq3,
Please elaborate. Who are “those laying siege”? Haven’t they gone home? Is there still a siege? Aren’t we “drowning in our own filth” yet? Because the siege broke not because the beseiged was strong but because those laying siege were weak?
Dirk Pitt on Sat, 15th Sep 2007 12:56 pm
“right on. there’s some hypocrisy going on in this blog. how can this country go forward if evidences of heinous plunder and corruption committed by a president using her office, could not generate a feeling of outrage against that person among some apparently “reasonable†and educated citizens. the limited understanding of the so-called masa (who are ruled by emotion rather than reason) is understandable. but the continuous effort by people, not proven to be insane, more particularly in the profit-seeking media, to defend and justify the president and her allies really boggles the mind.
btw, the immense stolen wealth ( Marcos ill-gotten wealth, fertilizer fund, Philhealth funds, OWWA funds, Diosdado Macapagal Blvd. kickbacks, etc…) would have been a real boon to philippine economy. collected and handled properly, think of the number of school houses, textbooks, rural hospitals, micro-financing, and medicine and food for the real needy and disabled, among others, that the money can be put to use.”
taga de cebu on Sat, 15th Sep 2007 1:06 pm
MLQ3:
As a historian,can you give me plausible reasons why some of our recent Presidents do not have an eye on how history will judge them and instead indulge in monumental kleptocracy?I know at least three presidents who had thrown caution to the wind and and engage in monumental plunder.I would appreciate
your views as well as those of other bloggers.
Dirk Pitt on Sat, 15th Sep 2007 1:14 pm
“do you see the clear pattern, guys? some people try to water-down the gravity of gloria arroyo’s sins, deflecting it by focusing on the alleged sins of estrada and the opposition. all kinds of appeal to the emotion, e.g., the list of economic achievements compiled by gma, etc. which remain to be felt by the people; the nauseating repetition of the charges of the opposition’s destabilizing acts;the laughable claim that the country is in “better shape†every day that gma is president;the wild claim that the House of Representatives’ dismissal of the impeachment cases was a “democratic actâ€; the implication that the AFP top brass are independent of gma; the stupid threat to “prosecute†some personalities in the opposition about the Aragoncillo spy case (prosecute for what?), etc., etc., are all designed to hide and deodorize gloria arroyo’s stench of depravity so they can continue lionizing her as a “heroine†without thumbing their nose. what a sorry pair!”
siu on Sat, 15th Sep 2007 1:18 pm
mlq, i’m a bit bothered by statements like “Erap’s wrongdoings are small potatoes compared to the goings on in the Arroyo administration”. I just hope statements like that were not meant to deaden the gravity of Erap’s sins. Probably the sins of Arroyo’s would perhaps eclipse that of Erap’s but these remain to be proven and these should not supplant the public’s rightful indignation to such a heinous crime already proven in a court of law. At this point, Erap is convicted and we should take it as it is. For crying out loud, he has amassed such unimaginable wealth while proclaiming to be one for the masses. Court’s finding of fact: in the Jose Velarde account alone: 3.2BILLION PESOS. Tell that to the man on the street who receives 200 pesos a day.
DJB: “If a Supreme Court decision is not unanimous, Erap will be acquitted. Must be acquitted. That is the way our Justice system works.”
Unanimous? where did you get that? Rule 125 of the Rules of Court says differently.
siu on Sat, 15th Sep 2007 1:42 pm
DJB: “Constitutional “Beyond reasonable doubt†must be established for Edsa Dos itself, because this is now a capital criminal case, not a Constitutional fantasy case.
The plunder appeal case ought to be called “Estrada vs. Davide†or “Chief Executive vs. Chief Justice†and will be a defining educational moment for us all, not just the hapless Supreme Court.”
What are you talking about? Are you saying Edsa Dos is a crime in itself where proof must be established beyond reasonable doubt? Or just plain misapplication as metaphors?
mlq3 on Sat, 15th Sep 2007 1:48 pm
pinoy, those laying siege? take your pick. and all for different reasons both good and bad. i don’t believe the siege was ever lifted, what seems more realistic is that there have been lulls. not least because you can also be besieged in your mind, for example hunkering down prior to the verdict, when there didn’t seem reason to be so frightened.
tagacotta, it’s the law of diminishing expectations. i’ve qoted a fp editorial from the 50s often enough: w’eve seen relying on officials to draw a private line between right and wrong isn’t enough; but even as the law tries to draw a clearer line between right and wrong (for ex. there is political behavior that 50 years ago would have been ok, but since then is no longer ok), the things that promote that clear line are weaker. it goes something like this: it no longer matters if you have a majority mandate, you only need a bigger minority than everyone else to be president. this makes you weaker, as president, from day one; it also leaves less of an incentive to mount a truly popular campaign, it leaves no incentive for political consensus, too. so the fight becomes even more vicious in a sense, and wit no one feeling they have to fear the public, impunity gets even more intense. when you come to think of it, estrada bragging he had 40% to be president is a pathetic claim to make in a democracy, yet what’s even more pathetic is fvr couldn’t even manage him before that, and for gma to claim the same percentage in 04 required an effort that denied her the legitimacy of victory (for a significant chunk of the electorate).
mlq3 on Sat, 15th Sep 2007 1:56 pm
siu, to clarify: i neither condone nor excuse estrada’s wrongdoings. his conviction was a point of no return. the old (very asian, mind you) tradition once, once out of power, a leader, so long as he left successors alone, was put out to pasture and no vendettas pursued. but that was tenable so long as leaders themselves maintained a certain level of self-control (a pan-asian grave sin is to be “garapal” when it comes to anything: power, vices, wealth, etc.). since self-control seems beyond the political class, then we now have institutionalized vendettas, the relentless and remorseless getting-even with leaders once they leave office, which can be viewed as a kind of last-ditch effort by society to even things out.
the point of no return having been reached, the incumbent will experience what her predecessor’s experienced. and what her successor will experience too, unless he or she proves capable of self-control and a (not even very high) level of enlightenment.
cvj on Sat, 15th Sep 2007 1:58 pm
Siu, not sure what his intent was, but i took Mlq3’s statement to be more about Arroyo than about Erap which is why i am not ‘bothered’. I do think that those who opposed Erap in 2001 but don’t oppose Arroyo with the same level of passion should be bothered. The EDSA Dos Crowd got what it wanted – Erap’s conviction, but in the process, it lost its basis for moral indignation as many of them are revealed to be hypocrites.
taga de cebu on Sat, 15th Sep 2007 2:02 pm
MLQ3:In your opinion,do presidents ever think”What will history say about my presidency?” If you were a president with this perspective you would strive to be a great president.
I don’t want to sound patronizing,but I consider MLQ and RM our only great presidents.What made them so different from the current crop.
Pls.explain further,it really bugs me.The difference between MLQ/RM and Macoy/Earp/ate Glo is like the difference between Abraham Lincoln/George Washington/John Kennedy and Nixon/Bushie the 2nd.
your views pls!THANKS!
mlq3 on Sat, 15th Sep 2007 2:07 pm
cjv, you will recall in 2005 a point i made was, if one opposed estrada in 2000-2001, then one has to consistently apply the both the diagnosis and the cure to his successors. for myself, i joined in the call for him to resign, i made a similar call for his successor to resign. i supported people power during edsa dos, of course i supported it in 05-06. i welcomed impeachment in 00, of course i welcomed it in 05 and 06. in 00-01 it could have failed, in 05-06 it failed, but that doesn’t invalidate (from my personal point of view) advocating similar things both times.
personally i find it superficial to say estrada deserved one thing, and say gma should be exempted from the same thing, simply because she has better manners and a superior work ethic. and while i recognize that others believe the economy is a sufficient reason to demonstrate a double standard, i also have the right to believe demonstrating that double standard can only have a bad long-term effect on the economy, etc.
cvj on Sat, 15th Sep 2007 2:14 pm
mlq3, yes i remember. in fact, it was your column about the need for consistency (as well as Anna de Brux’s later comment about taking a stand) is what finally converted me to the opposition. Without it, i’d probably be more like Rego.
mlq3 on Sat, 15th Sep 2007 2:22 pm
taga, all presidents, i think, are obsessed with history. i mean imagine, only one person every generation gets elected to the highest office, you have to think you’re destiny’s child.
both mlq and rm had more of a positive than a negative impact and their faults aside, they knew how power is best kept. but personally i also believe they had an incredibly negative impact in that their colossal success inspired a desire for one-upsmanship on the part of their successors.
at the end of the day you’ll find no one can really say they knew a president really well, it’s particularly true for mlq and rm, and even fm. it’s an irony of democratic leadership: even leaders widely admired in their time are essentially opaque, you can never know how or why they managed to do what they did. this is a fundamental balancing act of power: being many things to many people, yet having an identity people think they understand, identify with, can follow, support, obey, collaborate with, etc.
so if you’re a student of power, which every succesful politician has to be, you might think you’re taking away certain lessons from observing a leader but that leader isn’t going to show you, or posterity, their cards. you will only be guessing what hand they were dealt and then how they played that hand. if what you keep seeing is a champion poker player, in turn it will depend on how you view the game. a person who likes to play a fair game, will think championships are won by skill; cheaters will assume everyone plays with marked cards.
it’s the only way we can make sense of the world or else we’ll go crazy, we always have to break down the world into manageable rules of thumb. we have to name everything, classify everything, identify or imagine rules that places us within the larger universe: you believe either god or science makes the world go round, whichever you believe makes your life manageable (going to mass every day or accepting darwin’s theory of evolution).
i think political behavior’s like sexuality: is everyone gay or straight, or do most people fall within a sort of flexible continuum ranging from exclusively heterosexual to exclusively homosexual behavior, with only a minority permanently stuck at either end of the spectrum? politicians are like that. it’s not president a is a saint, president b is a demon, it’s more likely that given any presidential day, opportunities are plenty to be angelic or demonic but the reality is, most actions take place within a grey area.
but whether you call it destiny or historical necessity or plain old chance, there are times when you will have to face the choice of doing good or evil, the best any president can hope to do is to have done more good than wrong, or enough good to tip the scales in favor of a forgiving/understanding posterity than one that thinks you were a total screwup. even the scale of behavior will change over time, particularly as generations come into their own, who never had personal contact with a leader.
ironically, though, it’s easier for us to try to get a grip on past personalities, because more often than not they put down their thoughts on paper, today, fewer leaders do; also, as the private space for officials shrinks, there’s even less of an incentive for politicians to leave anything tangible to posterity, as far as their thoughts are concerned.
taga de cebu on Sat, 15th Sep 2007 2:32 pm
MLQ3:Thank you so much!I pity the descendants of presidents who screwed up (or are currently screwing up the country).I know it’s not their fault BUT its like having Hitler as your family name and defending your lolo Adolph .
Oh well,”plus ça change, plus c’est la même chose” — the more things change, the more they stay the same.
Manolo:thanks again!
mlq3 on Sat, 15th Sep 2007 2:34 pm
tagacotta, an additional analogy those who are more into sports than i am, might want to explore.
all things being equal, an athlete plays to win. sometimes you hear criticisms of athletes because it seems that’s all they care about, not even how they play the game. often you hear the complaint couched in generational terms: in the old days, they were more gentlemanly, today, the game’s played viciously, etc.
but then as now the goal was to win, because that’s the only way to gauge success. it’s a rare player who is consoled by the though that a string of defeats will inspire respect not only among players, but spectators.
but time marches on; the technology of game playing changes; the players change. tennis was played with players in long pants and sweaters once upon a time; today there are graphite rackets; golf was more genteel than today’s graphite hi-tech club-wielding golfers play it; even poker is spectator sport. if jaworski, who was far from being an inspiring example of chivalry on the court becomes the benchmark for future players, then you reach a point of no return.
taga de cebu on Sat, 15th Sep 2007 2:39 pm
MLQ3: i hope I am not bothering you too much on a weekend!
pls explain:both mlq and rm had more of a positive than a negative impact and their faults aside, they knew how power is best kept. but personally i also believe they had an incredibly negative impact in that their colossal success inspired a desire for one-upsmanship on the part of their successors.
what’s the incredibly negative impact of Quezon and Magsaysay on their infamous successors like MAcoy,erap and Ate Glo???
mlq3 on Sat, 15th Sep 2007 2:51 pm
tagacotta, success in and of itself, specially when spectacular, can inspire such a lust among those who want it in turn, that they won’t bother thinking that there has to be some positive reasons for the success besides obviously negative factors.
if you take mlq for example, someone will see an aggressive mestizo relishing pomp and power, without realizing the hard work it requires, or how for every instance of his shouting hoy puneta at someone was balanced with his taking up the cudgels even for political opponents, if he felt the opponent was unfairly treated, without necessarily doing it just for p.r. purposes. or, having committed errors or injustices, he’d try to rectify it, if not sooner, than later. but precisely because some of the mitigating behavior might have been done behind the scenes out of sincerity, the public, much less aspiring politicians, will never see it, or, even knowing it, will pass it off as posturing and nothing substantial. but it is is.
with rm they saw a vigorous person engaged in a frenzy of activity, who used force and convincing people in equal measure, or a lot of charisma, and it’s easy to think it’s all ok if you have charisma or if you do inspections and hire and fire people on the spot, without obtaining larger lessons, such as: support can’t always be bought, obedience or cooperation doesn’t always require brute force or an overpowering presence, that the best propaganda is not one that relies on lies, but harnesses some basic truths.
i tend to be very critical of fm but he had some great gifts: he knew the power of having a vision and communicating it; he was an excellent judge of character, he knew how to delegate. he worked hard (though maybe not as hard as people thought), and it got him elected twice and even when his popularity had evaporated, he harnessed the public mood effectively enough to be given the benefit of the doubt when he became dictator. one account i’ve read is that if he’d relinquished power in 1975 or 1978, he would have been not just the greatest but most beloved leader in our history, with glory and riches. but then, what choice did he have, but to pursue the power game to its bitter end? maybe ends, incidentally, mlq and rm would have porsued, but fate was kinder: it claimed their lives in office. but there is one ultimate failing fm had, which i strongly believe mlq and rm didn’t have: and that was, a consciousness of the need to groom successors prepared for high office. cory aquino had that failing, too, fvr had, to a limited degree, that insight into the responsibilty of power. jee lacked it, too, and gma both by force of circumstance and inclination, isn’t too interested in it, either.
manuelbuencamino on Sat, 15th Sep 2007 2:54 pm
Pinoy,
The desired result was for the public to believe that Erap’s conviction was not a miscarriage of justice. If the public believed that justice was served by his conviction then that would be one thing less dividing us.
I said this in another blog: Erap succeeded in portraying himself as the underdog and that negated any chance that the public will be one in accepting his conviction as just.
We remain divided. The conviction did not produce closure. The bickering continues.
taga de cebu on Sat, 15th Sep 2007 3:11 pm
I don’t see anybody in the political horizon having the charisma and the leadership values of MLQ and RM.
We had our fair share of Great Leaders who could have been GREAT Presidents:NINOY,DIOKNO,TANADA … but destiny assigned them much more important roles in our history.
have nice weekend MLQ3
siu on Sat, 15th Sep 2007 3:30 pm
mlq,I accept your clarification, but perhaps if you happen to misread my earlier comment; I did not accuse you of condoning Erap’s wrong doings nor am I consenting to that “double-standard” you spoke of. In fact, from where I sit, I would rave at seeing both of them share the same cell.
Regarding your culture-laced “vendetta” thing – I see the point but I must say, in the current state of things – its not a one-way street.
taga de cebu on Sat, 15th Sep 2007 6:25 pm
“Plus ça change, plus c’est la même chose†— the more things change, the more they stay the same!
Marcos….Erap….Ate Glue…
Karl Garcia on Sat, 15th Sep 2007 7:45 pm
Who says na nabubuhay tayo sa alpha at omega na erap and gloria?
less than 3 years na lang. kung sa next administration ay ayusin na ang two party system para masolve na din ang usapan sa palakihan ng minority,konti na lang ang kagaya ni devils na Roco siya all the way,kahit di winnable nung last time bumoto sya.
Malaking adjustment din itong two party system kung ayaw mo sa dalawa lamang ang pagpipilian.
Ok na yan minsan nga ayaw mo lahat ng kanidato kahit lima pa sila.
taga de cebu on Sat, 15th Sep 2007 8:19 pm
KG:read your family history in your blog.Have faith.
John 10:10
taga de cebu on Sat, 15th Sep 2007 8:27 pm
A SWOT analysis of Mar Roxas:
STRENGTHS:
-â€De Buena Familiaâ€;part of the influential/very wealthy Araneta/Roxas poltical clan.
-Favorite of Philippine Wall Street(â€Ayala Aveâ€)
-Rated K support.
-Senatorial Topnotcher
-â€Mr.Palengke “projected image
-authorship of the Cheaper Medicine bill
WEAKNESSES:
-â€Spinelessâ€in crisis(quickly disappears and leaves for abroad when he needs to make a stand).
-No political organization(what’s the Drilon wing of the Liberal party right now?)
OPPORTUNITIES:
Among the the current 2010 presidentiablesâ€,Mar Roxas appears to be most decent.He can be trusted.No taint of scandal/corruption at all.
Mar Roxas can become the most trusted political leader as soon as he finds his TRUE NORTH. Mar,Speak from the heart,not from the brain all the time.Feel the pain and real agony of the suffering Filipino masses)
THREATS:The Lacsons and Gordons of this world project an image of “CAN DO/WILL DO’ leaders who the masses might desperately cling to.
We also have the political chameleons waiting in the wings.They can become oppositionists or administration depending where the political winds blow?
Where will Mar Roxas be in this wide spectrum of political animals? Is he willing to be a leader with the real interests of the people in his heart?will he finally be FOR the people at all times???
pinoy on Sat, 15th Sep 2007 8:28 pm
mb,
:”The conviction did not produce closure.”
What verdict would have? Would acquital have brought closure? Was it the verdict, who were rendering the verdict, Erap, the circumstances surrounding the verdict or there was no closure because of the GMA factor in the verdict?
What would have hoped for to bring closure? What should be done?
Karl Garcia on Sat, 15th Sep 2007 8:31 pm
pasensya na manolo,sagutin ko lang si tdc
taga de cebu,
salamat!Inaamin ko i have to look it up.pasensya na.
10 The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy. I came that they may have life and have it abundantly.
I appreciate it!
pinoy on Sat, 15th Sep 2007 8:50 pm
mlq3,
:â€not least because you can also be besieged in your mind,â€
GMA has coped well, it seems, with this siege mentality. After all, she’s still in power and on top of the situation while her adversaries are in disarray, differing in motivation though seemingly united in ousting her.
Karl Garcia on Sat, 15th Sep 2007 9:00 pm
Bubby Dacer,
Aside from being the publicist of FVR, he also is the publisher of the Customs publication:the customs Week:
Diyan pa lang international na ang kalaban at kakampi mo,madami syang kalaban at kaalyado from hutchinsons,Russian maffia,rival port operators,sgs.customs officials,including other journalists.
Unfortunately one way to build PR,you also have to destroy others.
Kung sino man nasagasaan ni Dacer,sigurado madami yon.
Di rin natin marring ibale wala ang evidence na hawak niya sa BW na ihahatid dapat nya sa Manila Hotel ke FVR.
************************
Tama yung comment ko, na lahat naman ng pamilya ng naconvict napahiya at one point in time,correct ka dyan(was it rego?)
***********************
Retribution: sinubukan natin ibalik ang lethal injection:prolife naman ang umangal
mukhang lahat ng sitwasyon me aangal,kanya kanyang national interest.
di naman daw kaya mabawan ang crime rate,pano daw kung inosente eventually.
*****************
Restitution:
Our number of court case,backlogs lalo lang lumalaganap ang aregluhan and the justice department is even encouraging amicable setlements.
but restitution is more than amicable settlements at acceptable to both parties,it still demands an equivalent reparation of sorts.
The tanay instead of munti decision although we are not required to copy other countries, was the precedent.
If that is the standard for current or former presidents,then make it a standard.At least sana yan man lang ang magandang kinalbasan ng trial.
pero matagal pa nga yan mag aapeal pa sa Sc yan.
at sa ayaw at sa gusto natin malilimutan din natin itong issue na ito hanngang lumamig at uminit ulit.
manuelbuencamino on Sat, 15th Sep 2007 9:17 pm
pinoy,
You wouldn’t be asking those questions if the thing was handled well.
A golden opportunity to restore the public’s faith in our institutions was wasted.
The whole trial, the verdict was about the personalities and camps pitted against each other.
The public was focused on the politics of the case and not on the merits of the case.
Could the verdict have led to closure? I think so.
Maybe if the entire trial was televised then the public would have been able to draw their conclusions from the trial itself rather than on the spin about the trial that was peddled by both sides. They would have been able to witness the process firsthand rather than be told about what was happening.
I don’t know about you but I don’t know whether Erap is guilty of some, all, or none of the charges. I cannot base my opinion on the Sandigan decision because everything written there is in support of their verdict. Now if I saw the trial and I was able to make my own evaluation of the prosecution and the defense then I will have my own verdict.
So you see it’s not the verdict itself that would have brought closure. It was the handling, the presentation if you will, of the entire thing. If it was handled well I think the public would have accepted whatever verdict was arrived at.
justice in waiting on Sat, 15th Sep 2007 9:33 pm
The conviction of Estrada was a foregone conclusion, everyone knew it, even Erap himself, and the question that will forever linger on the legal circles, was it constitutional? Was his trial for crimes while not impeached and convicted by congress legally binding and will hold up to challenge or appeal? Watch out, if and when that SC justices are staffed with wiser men and women, that judgement against Erap will be reversed, not because he didn’t commit plunder or not guilty as charged, but because he should have not been charged and tried in the first place.. that is the contitution and it was violtated…
ormocanon on Sat, 15th Sep 2007 10:34 pm
Bencard said: “…how can this country go forward if a conclusive finding, beyond reasonable doubt, of heinous plunder committed by a president using his office, could not generate a feeling of outrage against that person among some apparently “reasonable†and educated citizens. the limited understanding of the so-called masa (who are ruled by emotion rather than reason) is understandable. but the continuous effort by people, not proven to be insane, more particularly in the profit-seeking media, to defend and justify the convict really boggles the mind.”
Bencard, I think I know why. Maybe its because a considerable number of us Filipinos are stupid ‘masochists’.
Our collective asses have gotten so used to getting screwed by crooked politicians since the Marcos era,
that some of us had started to enjoy in bending over to get screwed some more.
What do you suppose will happen the moment Erap gets pardoned?
Here’s what, I’m afraid, most probably would happen:
The moment another ‘big fish’ in government gets caught and convicted for the crime of plunder, he or she would simply
point out Erap’s case and expects to get a pardon, too.
pinoy on Sat, 15th Sep 2007 10:49 pm
mlq3,
As it turned out, your idea for Erap to run for senate was the better option for him. But he’s now convicted. Can he still run for the presidency on 2010? Or any public office for that matter?
DevilsAdvc8 on Sat, 15th Sep 2007 10:51 pm
Manolo, if it’s ok with you, can I post a link of your last 3 posts in this thread in my blog? Those words were simply GOLDEN.
Bencard on Sat, 15th Sep 2007 10:54 pm
mlq3, it never cease to amaze me how you can state, with apparent confidence, that public opinion doesn’t view estrada’s conviction for the heinous crime of plunder a triumph of justice. i’m sure you’ll invoke sws surveys paid for by his friends (probably with part of the plundered loot)that has become a big joke. if you so much as have said opinion of his followers from the captive constituencies, multiple families, and the leeches living off his blood, i would have agreed with you. but to claim public opinion in its entirety, i don’t believe the majority of the filipinos is so indifferent and callous, if not perverted, as to call it “unjust” to convict and mete out appropriate punishment to a criminal. if that is the case, we don’t need a benignO to show us why we really have a hopeless problem as a people.
your 30% alleged estrada diehards could very well prevail over a 70% apathetic electorate who just give up and leave the country to the wolves. this doomsday scenario cannot happen without the goading of the profit-seeking media who does a good job, as rego put it, “mak(ing) the bad look good and the good look bad”. even ostensibly reasonable people could be frustrated by perception of general malaise and hopelessness, especially when fed on them day and day out.
blood debts? what the hell are you talking about? are you referring to pgma’s war against the rebels and bandits preying on those who would stay inside the law? or is it the killings or incarcerations that result in the enforcement of the law? reprisals and vendettas are to be expected from people who were thwarted in their nefarious ways, but for you to sound ominous as though pgma has it coming is unfair, if not dangerous. she has nothing to be concerned about as far as revenge is concerned. time and again, she has shown that she is not faint-hearted and i know she’ll be supported and protected by righteous and fair-minded citizens, and, of course, by the rule of law, the great equalizer as was just proven.
mb, i don’t think we can achieve unity by getting rid of gma. her true admirers (estimated by manolo at 25%) will not stand idly by without lifting a finger. that, plus the hundreds of thousand of thoughtful people who are ruled by reason rather than emotion.
dirk pitt, congratulations. you got my attention. i see you’re a patient typist and excellent plagiarist. do you have a mind of your own? btw, i read clive cussler. his character (your name sake) is not a dumb ass.
pinoy on Sat, 15th Sep 2007 11:04 pm
justice league,
Was Erap a victim of a mistrial? Or are you raising ‘prejudicial questions’ about the trial? Are you questioning the Sandiganbayan’s jurisdiction over the case or Erap for that matter? Is the impeachment the proper venue? Is there a legal, moral, political question on how the case tried in the aborted impeachment proceeding became a case under the Sandiganbayan’s jurisdiction? What is the legal and constitutional remedy? Is the trial a ‘fruit of the poisoned tree’? one fruit among so many that Davide’s “extra-constitutional remedy” must be constitutionally remedied to normlize the administration’s legitimacy problem? or remedied by an execersice of the sovereign will of the people via a snap election?
pinoy on Sun, 16th Sep 2007 12:13 am
Mlq3,
Amando Doronilla thinks that Erap’s conviction “sets the stage for an uneasy Arroyo post-presidencyâ€, as in: GMA is next.
Amnesty will be the main issue in the 2010 elections – amnesty for either or both Erap and GMA. An amnesty vs accountability showdown is best judged via the exercise of the sovereign will of the people.
A presidentiable who can deal amnesty for both in exchange for exclusive support takes the lead in the run for the presidency. Packaged under a platform of ‘reconciliation’, ‘moving on’, ‘saving the gains of the economy’, ‘new beginning’, ‘national renewal’, and ‘a vision for a better tomorrow’, amnesty for Erap and GMA is a powerful political initiative to an electorate that is sick and tired of adversarial politics.
Prior to the verdict, I imagined a snap election scenario where Erap and GMA deals a declared platform of mutual amnesty. GMA accedes to a snap and Erap escapes the impending verdict. The exercise of the sovereign will of the people, I think, is the key to solving the constitutional and political puzzle. (A snap is legally possible according to Fr. Bernas and as suggested by Sen Angara.) This jives with your suggestion for Erap to run for senate as a referendum on his case. But the conviction have over ran this scenario.
Is there really a viable formula that could resolve the debilitating lingering political and constitutional crisis?
mlq3 on Sun, 16th Sep 2007 12:55 am
pinoy, now he can’t run for dogcatcher, he can’t even sign checks, he loses his authority as a parent, even, i believe. permanent disqualification from office is one of the penalties of his conviction. i understand that once having been president, he could never run for the same office again, anyway. but now…
the only political power he has is that of an endorser, which might make a difference in a close election, but it all depends on how the president, for example, handles things. if she refrained from anointing a successor, but quietly maneuvered to help a candidate and remained stealthy about it, estrada’s power to endorse would be reduced -because i do agree with rego that people would be happy to put both leaders out to pasture.
mlq3 on Sun, 16th Sep 2007 12:55 am
devils, thank you, of course if you think they’re worth it.
mlq3 on Sun, 16th Sep 2007 12:58 am
just a note, re: trial.
impeachment was purely a determination of whether estrada, with a constitutionally-fixed term, deserved to have his term preterminated. whether convicted or acquitted, it wouldn’t affect his facing criminal and civil charges the moment he lost his immunity as incumbent president. while in office, a president can’t be sued or any other suit filed; but once out of office, an ex-president in the eyes of the law, is subject to the legal system without any limitations.
if estrada had won the impeachment he might still have had to face these exact same charges, in 2004, presuming a friendly successor didn’t take over.
mlq3 on Sun, 16th Sep 2007 1:08 am
pinoy, your joint amnesty proposal would be interesting, and you might as well include the marcoses. fm, supposedly. as he lay dying, offered 90% of his wealth to the government, 10% for his familes, so he could come home to die. people ranging from enrique zobel to doy laurel to the papal nuncio were acting as intermediaries.
if that had happened fm might have have come home to a hero’s reception, with imelda handing out wads of cash to the victims of the military.
i believe, taking away the weath determined by the courts as ill-gotten, and then immediately releasing Estrada, would have been a no-nonsene act of justice many from the public would have found not just fine, but really just .
it takes a president to propose anamnesty, one deliberated upon in congrerss which then approves it. It wipes the slate clean for those convicted by the special courts, and tops all other ongoing trials.
a pardon, well, it seems nixon had the power to pardon himself. instead, his vp ford pardonixed nixon for all and charges that might arise from the evidence to be presented by Congress in the Nixon impeachment.
justice in waiting on Sun, 16th Sep 2007 1:15 am
“but once out of office, an ex-president in the eyes of the law, is subject to the legal system without any limitations”.
That is if the Ex-President committed any violation, crime, or tort after leaving office. But in Erap case, the crime for which he was tried and convicted was committed during his tenure and that we have a process, under the fundamental law, to try a President while in office, an impeachment and trial by the senate and conviction and the punishment also provided therein. But not forced out of office by unconstitutional means and try thereafter. for the true constitutionalists, that is the issue. and looking back, there was a conspiracy against him; it was successful which gave it the appearance of legitimacy, had it not it was even a bigger crime…
BrianB on Sun, 16th Sep 2007 3:03 am
“Is there really a viable formula that could resolve the debilitating lingering political and constitutional crisis.”
If we’re a smart people we’d realize that history has been preparing itself for a revolution. Institutions are weak, the middle class has practically given up (turned cynicalor stateside), the masses are demoralized and the politicians are in a moral panic, flip-flopping like crazy frogs.
BrianB on Sun, 16th Sep 2007 3:08 am
Idealism is being pushed overboard in this sinking ship we call Pilipinas. What else is there but revolution? Not unless anyone here thinks a country can survive without ideals and a people can stand life with the moral bedrock crumbling beneath their feet.
BrianB on Sun, 16th Sep 2007 3:08 am
Idealism is being pushed overboard on this sinking ship we call Pilipinas. What else is there but revolution? Not unless anyone here thinks a country can survive without ideals and a people can stand life with the moral bedrock crumbling beneath their feet.
grd on Sun, 16th Sep 2007 3:24 am
“nixon went down in total limbo, a completely broken man, never to recover in spite of a few ultra conservative zealots’ puny attempt to rewrite history. yet, he was not accused of having stolen even a buck from the national treasury, much less convicted of it.†Bencard
is that so? what Nixon committed was some “petty†but embarrassing crimes enough for him to struck a deal w/ his vice president to resign and subsequently pardoned unconditionally w/o being charged in court?
his petty crime?
“Investstigations conducted by the FBI, Senate Watergate Committee, House Judiciary Committee and the press revealed that this burglary (referring to Watergate) was just one of many illegal activities authorized and carried out by Nixon’s staff. They also revealed the immense scope of crimes and abuses, which included campaign fraud, political espionage and sabotage, illegal break-ins, wiretapping on a massive scale, including the wiretapping of the press and regular citizens, and a secret slush fund laundered in Mexico to pay those who conducted these operations.[1] This secret fund was also used as hush money to buy silence of the seven men who were indicted for the June 17 break-in.[2] President Nixon and his staff conspired to cover up the break-in as early as six days after it occurred. [3] After enduring two years of mounting evidence against the President and his staff, which included former staff members testifying against them in a Senate investigation…â€
of course, these crimes are nothing compared to Estrada. afterall, “Nixon never stole even a buck from the national treasury, much less convicted of it.†(sure about that? or the media was too soft that time? where did all those fundings of illegal activities came from?) paano nga makoconvict hindi man lang nasampahan ng kaso at binigyan na ng pardon kaagad in the best interest of America daw. that’s your american justice at work or shall we say the first world justice system. but try the third world justice system and see how it works. or better yet, ask ka beltran and joma sison the difference between the two worlds.
as for your alter (r)ego, WTF are you talking about comparing apples to tomatoes ?
grd on Sun, 16th Sep 2007 3:39 am
hypocrisy of the highest order.
justice league on Sun, 16th Sep 2007 3:40 am
Pinoy,
I have been quite engaged for some time that I have not typed any thoughts on many of the issues at hand in this blog.
Whoever you are discussing with is not I.
DevilsAdvc8 on Sun, 16th Sep 2007 4:30 am
jl, it must be justice in waiting (his/her nick)
“If we’re a smart people we’d realize that history has been preparing itself for a revolution. Institutions are weak, the middle class has practically given up (turned cynicalor stateside), the masses are demoralized and the politicians are in a moral panic, flip-flopping like crazy frogs.”
And the question is only when. how long did i give the Phils? I think it was 3 yrs.
taga de cebu on Sun, 16th Sep 2007 5:23 am
Who’s the NBN MYSTERY MAN?â€
“My impression is that Chairman Abalos brought this person in to bully me, [that] hopefully I would withdraw my application,†he told the network.
“My impression is that he was just there to muscle his way [in] and hopefully get to me so that I would back out,†De Venecia said.
He said he found the man’s presence at the meeting to be improper but he was not sure whether what the man did “is incriminating because I don’t know whether he performed an illegal act.â€
“He was there for one meeting.â€
Asked if the man was a government official, De Venecia said he “can’t say†until he appeared at the Senate.
He said he did not know if the man himself had received any kickbacks.
“Probably,†De Venecia said, when asked by ANC if he thought he would be courting “big trouble†should he mention the person’s name.â€
Any guess???
DevilsAdvc8 on Sun, 16th Sep 2007 6:35 am
Mike A.
pinoy on Sun, 16th Sep 2007 7:45 am
mlq3,
The fate of Erap and GMA depends on who seats next.
That’s why a GMA-all-the-way unlimited edition scenario is amnong the top most likely scenarios if there’s no strong pro-GMA presidentiable she can bank on comes up. Martial law … revolutionary gov’t … new constitution — a parliamentary form of government. GMA will more likely make a pre-emptive move than face the situation when she has lost the advantage of her position. Her allies who wouldn’t benefit from an amnesty exchange deal and scared shit of facing accountability will push GMA to go for the home run.
A scenario where a presidentiable who rans on a platform of reconcilliation — joint amnesty for Erap and GMA — is voted into office is, i think, a compromise senario for every one — a win-win solution.
A zero-sum scenario where nobody wins,everyone looses could loom if no viable option develops in the run-up to 2010.
Now is the time for the protagonists, espacially the people, to seriously consider the options. There’s a three-year window of opportunity for all sides to discern which is the way out of the mess we’re in.
At a crossroads we’re a people desperate for a leader with a clear vision of where we are and where we are headed for.
pinoy on Sun, 16th Sep 2007 7:47 am
justice league,
Sorry, ’twas for justice in waiting.
cvj on Sun, 16th Sep 2007 8:17 pm
[Resubmitting...Could've sworn i posted this before.]
Bencard, i’ve read that Estrada may not have been guilty of plunder because technically, plunder needs to involve the public funds. As Ninez-Cacho Olivares says:
What’s your legal opinion on this?
DevilsAdvc8 on Sun, 16th Sep 2007 10:10 pm
same with u cvj. i think wordpress might’ve had a glitch. i tried to post a previous message as well, was surprised it was gone after a while.
anyway, it was just a plain old rant abt a pet peeve of mine. i wasn’t planning to say anything except the occurrence of the mistake keeps happening frequently. id like to speak out before the 2 words are interchanged for good. remember, im not a stickler for grammar rules, spelling, structure, or even form. But when some words get mangled like this…
Lose – the act of losing something or the act of not winning
Loose – to let go, not fitting (maluwag)
jz a heads up. when even people like hvrds interchange the use of this 2. nothing agst ur post pinoy. in fact, i agree with the last part of ur post.
it just bugs me.
taga de cebu on Sun, 16th Sep 2007 10:16 pm
Devil adv8:What bugs you?it’s a weekend! smile hijo!
“I wouldn’t mind if you were nice to me once in a blue moon.â€
- Gridiron Night, NPC
GLORIA MACAPAGAL ARROYO,President pf The Philippines
April 20, 2001
justice league on Sun, 16th Sep 2007 10:20 pm
Cvj,
Well I have no doubt someone else can answer your query. I was just browsing around and haven’t really read as much on the issue (haven’t read the decision either)as I could but the following might be interesting.
REPUBLIC ACT NO. 7080
Section 1. Definition of terms. – As used in this Act, the term:
a. “Public Officer” means any person holding any public office in the Government of the Republic of the Philippines by virtue of an appointment, election or contract.
d. “Ill-gotten wealth” means any asset, property, business enterprise or material possession of any person within the purview of Section two (2) hereof, acquired by him directly or indirectly through dummies, nominees, agents, subordinates and/or business associates by any combination or series of the following means or similar schemes:
1.
2. By receiving, directly or indirectly, any commission, gift, share, percentage, kickbacks or any/or entity in connection with any government contract or project or BY REASON of the office or position of the public officer concerned;
3.
4. By obtaining, receiving or accepting directly or indirectly any shares of stock, equity or any other form of interest or participation including the promise of future employment in any business enterprise or undertaking; (Don’t know if this applied but I decided to paste it anyway)
5.
6. By taking undue advantage of official position, authority, relationship, connection or influence to unjustly enrich himself or themselves at the expense and to the damage and prejudice of the Filipino people and the Republic of the Philippines.
Sec. 2. Definition of the Crime of Plunder; Penalties. – Any public officer who, by himself or in connivance with members of his family, relatives by affinity or consanguinity, business associates, subordinates or other persons, amasses, accumulates or acquires ill-gotten wealth through a combination or series of overt criminal acts as described in Section 1 (d) hereof in the aggregate amount or total value of at least Fifty million pesos (P50,000,000.00) shall be guilty of the crime of plunder and shall be punished by reclusion perpetua to death. Any person who participated with the said public officer in the commission of an offense contributing to the crime of plunder shall likewise be punished for such offense. In the imposition of penalties, the degree of participation and the attendance of mitigating and extenuating circumstances, as provided by the Revised Penal Code, shall be considered by the court. The court shall declare any and all ill-gotten wealth and their interests and other incomes and assets including the properties and shares of stocks derived from the deposit or investment thereof forfeited in favor of the State.
——-
Don’t know where Olivarez got her idea but I think she interpreted differently.
justice league on Sun, 16th Sep 2007 10:24 pm
Pinoy, Devil,
No problem.
pinoy on Sun, 16th Sep 2007 10:26 pm
mb,
Got your point. How the trial was conducted and presented to the public determine its credibility. In other words it was as ‘honest, credible and fair’ trial as the elections under GMA — specially the 2004 elections.
taga de cebu on Sun, 16th Sep 2007 10:40 pm
To my countrymen:
“The days of PLUNDER are over!â€
Gloria Macapagal Arroyo
President of the Philippines
- Press Conference,March 20, 2001
pinoy on Sun, 16th Sep 2007 10:43 pm
justice league,
Is a motion for reconsideration by Erap a good move? Can Atong Ang now testify? Lalong madidiin si Erap.
pinoy on Sun, 16th Sep 2007 10:57 pm
taga de cebu,
The plunder of our patrimony at full blast under GMA is unquantifiable and unconscionable. Widespread, wide-scale large-scale mining concessions are given to foreigners who ship out tons of ores instead of processed goods. Many are able to skip tax altogether aside from leaving the sites as toxified wastelands.
taga de cebu on Sun, 16th Sep 2007 11:03 pm
Dear PINOY:
” We are also implementing austerity measures to do more with less, a peso worth of result for every peso we spend”
Gloria Macapagal-Arroyo
President,Republic of the Philippines
- Speech, Business Meeting with PCCI
February 21, 2001
frombelow on Sun, 16th Sep 2007 11:05 pm
Wait a minute. As i read most of the bloggers, as well as comments of prominent people in our society, justice will not be complete without the persecution of GMA allies whom they alleged as corrupt or more corrupt than Erap.
So, Erap was successful, very, in turning the tables on his opponents. He was successful in turning his trial into a political circus, not process of ferreting out truth and rendering justice.
If ever allies of Erap become sucuessful in taking power via election or in whatever manner, people will not be revulsive if a proper couret reverse the decsion of the Sandiganbayan.
And another miscarriage of justice. But who’s to blame. I think it is the present administration who failed to present his trial and conviction as a triumph of the rule of law but rather successful in portraying the truial and verdict as crude form of political persecution.
taga de cebu on Sun, 16th Sep 2007 11:10 pm
To my countrymen:
” The truth is I am cute and short but I am above gossip.”
President Gloria Macapagal -Arroyo
- Gridiron Night
April 20, 2001
justice league on Sun, 16th Sep 2007 11:23 pm
Pinoy,
Well I haven’t really given much thought on the issues concerned but I’ll try to answer.
I think testimony from Atong Ang will depend much from the decision of the defense at this point unless a new trial is underway, etc…
With regards to the motion for reconsideration; well, ex-FL Imelda Marcos was found guilty by the Sandiganbayan which however was overturned by the SC.
Maybe a look at how long the SC decided on that matter can shed some light.
She was initially found guilty on Sept. 1993 by the First division. It was affirmed by the Sandiganbayan Third division on June 1998.
But it took the SC only up to October of that same year
to reach their decision(which turned out to be favorable to her).
I honestly believe that the elections in 3 years time is playing a big part in the decision to go back to the SandiganBayan rather than immediately go to the SC (where an early but unfavorable decision is likely devastating). Of course I’m not sure on that.
justice league on Sun, 16th Sep 2007 11:55 pm
Pinoy,
Oooopss!
Made a mistake in claiming that the 3rd division was from the Sandiganbayan.
It was already from the SC.
So it took about 5 years for the SC to finally settle her issue after it came from the SandiganBayan.
But still I think ex-Pres. Estrada’s side is more of temporizing on the matter.
cvj on Mon, 17th Sep 2007 12:36 am
Justice League, thanks for the response. I think definition #6 of Section 1 is enough to consider Erap’s actions as plunder so Ninez is mistaken to limit the scope of the crime to cover only public funds.
Devils, now that you’ve mentioned it, i remember reading your polemic on ‘loose’ vs. ‘lose’. Thanks for confirming that i’m not yet going insane.
manuelbuencamino on Mon, 17th Sep 2007 1:14 am
I’ve been getting text messages that the mystery man in the NBN deal is Buboy Macapagal, Gloria’s low-profile brother.
Ano kaya kung totoo yun, ano kaya if Joey de Venecia names him in next Tuesday’s Senae Blue Ribbon hearing?
What will Gloria’s defenders have to say then?
justice league on Mon, 17th Sep 2007 1:46 am
Cvj,
Ok.
rego on Mon, 17th Sep 2007 2:21 am
My replies to Manolo were also missing after I saw it posted yesterday.
Anyways, Im just saying that I have no issue with your consistency. My issue is on the inconsistencies of what you have been writing recently against your different advocacies…..
Karl Garcia on Mon, 17th Sep 2007 7:42 am
TDC,
In your SWOT analysis of Mr.Palengke; does the strengths offset the weakneaes and like wise the Opporunities offset the threats?
I hope your answer would be like your comment on my comment regarding gordon…and not a quotation.
Karl Garcia on Mon, 17th Sep 2007 8:09 am
in don’t want to make you puke so I won’t mention the two guys names .
Villar won 15-7
is that the main reason of your indigestion with the two that they are included in the 15.
Pimentel accepted his defeat(I think),and we will see what Cayetano is made of on his blue ribbon committee hearings.
Is is he all talk ,like Rego wanted to point out.
Even if Lacson did not get the post(blue ribbon),he gets what he wants to be investigated.
And TDC,what say you,on Villar’s questioning again of the EO464,is it all a PR ploy?
Karl Garcia on Mon, 17th Sep 2007 8:36 am
“Those who argue that similar cases should be filed against Arroyo and Company are conveniently forgetting that she is still in power”
ayan na nga ang tinastanong ni rego ke Cayetano: nasaan daw ang ebidensya at ngayon nasa blue ribbon na sya:bakit di daw nya gamitin ang new powers nya.
gamitin pa nga daw nya lahat ng laman ng kahong kahong ebidensya na meron sya nuon.
kung dati sa senado din nagsimula ang “I accuse”
na namukha pang dracula si guingona nuon at natunaw si Enrile,bago nag ka impeachment,baka pwede din maulit.
kaso di nga pwede sa ngayon,sayang lang ang oras dahil plantsado na o prefab na o made in macao na.
cvj on Mon, 17th Sep 2007 8:39 am
I see that the alternate universe (in which Rom does not go ballistic at 1:04am) has come back.
Bencard on Mon, 17th Sep 2007 8:44 am
about 3 of my last posts are missing after responding to pinoy’s last entry on amnesty.
cvj on Mon, 17th Sep 2007 9:06 am
Bencard fwiw, i saved your posts (at Sept 16 9:39am, Sept 16 9:41pm and Sept 17 12:20am) from the other version of this thread. Welcome to Toting Bunye’s Wordpress.
rego on Mon, 17th Sep 2007 9:21 am
rego, the flaw i see in your comment is, charges flow out of an assumption: when cases were filed against estrada, people didn’t say, “let us investigate and see maybe, perhaps, who knows, something might be fishy.†they said, “hey, he took x, stole y, looted z.†that’s where the impeachment then the court stepped in, to determine if this was so. so at present, the accusations against the president are at a similar point, except it will certainly take a lot more work, because to be blunt about it, estrada was uniquely crass and obvious about his misdeeds. in a sense that can help explain why estrada was doomed, legally, in 6 years, the marcoses are still fighting it out: fm was, after all, not only a brilliant lawyer but hired brilliant lawyers and didn’t trust local banks.
——————————————————–
Manolo,
It could be that the crassness of Estrada misbehavior prevented people from entertaining doubts about his misdeed. The media especially the PCIJ has published all the photos of Estrada excesses . Then there is a an eyewitness account from the like of Chavit. Pinoys can be very visual you know. But just the same Erap did undergo some sort of investigation through impeachment.
Then the people that work against Erap then just worker harder that the people that work against Gloria.
One thing I noticed too is that while the opposition know very well that Gloria is a tougher and smarter breed than Erap, they never change strategies. They went on with the old and jaded stategies used on Erap which the Aroyo mastered to evade., Like people power, resignation.( eh kung si Erap nag dedeny pa rin hanggang nagyon na nag resign sya eh, tapos dadaanin pa rin sa paresign resign si Gloria)
Honestly, I like that idea of one Ateneo professor in our group during the Garci scandal. since Gloria wont resign, then let malacanang be her prison cell. Make her really work for the country. Bantayan na ng husto and constantly threaten her wit impeachment everytime she misbehave. Then when her immunity expired bring her to court.
I agree with you that prosecuting Gloria after her term would be very difficult. But then if we hant her to pay for whatever crime she comited while in power then we just have to prosecute her after her term.
I really believe that we handled Erap in a very emotional manner consequently so many rules, laws, and principle were broken. That explains the never ending debates until now.And this is the reason why I dont want to employ the same emotional approach on the Gloria problem. I want very step in accordance to the law, rules and principles that we already had. That I believe will miminimize the never ending debates, confusions and bickerings. It woudl be more orderly therefore the damage to country will be minimal too.
Mike Aroyo is has faced all the investigation against him. But the problem is the evidence against him is just not enough to pin him down. The same way tha Erap evade some other crimes like Boracay mansion, the Dacer kilings, the disapperance of the casino worker who leaked that casino video etc etc.
rego on Mon, 17th Sep 2007 9:24 am
rego, the flaw i see in your comment is, charges flow out of an assumption: when cases were filed against estrada, people didn’t say, “let us investigate and see maybe, perhaps, who knows, something might be fishy.†they said, “hey, he took x, stole y, looted z.†that’s where the impeachment then the court stepped in, to determine if this was so. so at present, the accusations against the president are at a similar point, except it will certainly take a lot more work, because to be blunt about it, estrada was uniquely crass and obvious about his misdeeds. in a sense that can help explain why estrada was doomed, legally, in 6 years, the marcoses are still fighting it out: fm was, after all, not only a brilliant lawyer but hired brilliant lawyers and didn’t trust local banks.
——————————————————–
Manolo,
It could be that the crassness of Estrada misbehavior prevented people from entertaining doubts about his misdeed. The media especially the PCIJ has published all the photos of Estrada excesses . Then there is a an eyewitness account from the like of Chavit. Pinoys can be very visual you know. But just the same Erap did undergo some sort of investigation through impeachment.
Then the people that work against Erap then just worker harder that the people that work against Gloria.
One thing I noticed too is that while the opposition know very well that Gloria is a tougher and smarter breed than Erap, they never change strategies. They went on with the old and jaded stategies used on Erap which the Aroyo mastered to evade., Like people power, resignation.( eh kung si Erap nag dedeny pa rin hanggang nagyon na nag resign sya eh, tapos dadaanin pa rin sa paresign resign si Gloria)
Honestly, I like that idea of one Ateneo professor in our group during the Garci scandal. since Gloria wont resign, then let malacanang be her prison cell. Make her really work for the country. Bantayan na ng husto and constantly threaten her wit impeachment everytime she misbehave. Then when her immunity expired bring her to court.
I agree with you that prosecuting Gloria after her term would be very difficult. But then if we hant her to pay for whatever crime she comited while in power then we just have to prosecute her after her term.
I really believe that we handled Erap in a very emotional manner consequently so many rules, laws, and principle were broken. That explains the never ending debates until now.And this is the reason why I dont want to employ the same emotional approach on the Gloria problem. I want very step in accordance to the law, rules and principles that we already had. That I believe will miminimize the never ending debates, confusions and bickerings. It woudl be more orderly therefore the damage to country will be minimal too.
Mike Aroyo is has faced all the investigation against him. But the problem is the evidence against him is just not enough to pin him down. The same way tha Erap evade some other crimes like Boracay mansion, the Dacer kilings, the disapperance of the casino worker who leaked that casino video etc etc……….
rego on Mon, 17th Sep 2007 9:36 am
but baka isipin mo naman na masyado akong antipatiko pagdating sa mga comments mo…
——————–
No, Manolo, I did not feel that way. Ang feeling ko nga ako ang antipatiko sa yong mga write ups eh…
Pagdating naman sa pag rereply, I am not really bothered much on how people replied to any comments. After all, the way we reply to any comments reflects more on our character than on teh people that we are replying.
I give more importance on the message of the reply rather that the way reply was made. And I woudl say you expressed than your message to me really well.
rego on Mon, 17th Sep 2007 9:46 am
honestly it’s people like you, rego, who keep everyone else grounded. and if you weren’t pointing out the need to focus on establishing a new basis for whatever administration comes next, yung mga engaged on one side or another of the present political fence might just ignore the coming challenges until it’s too late. so kelangan talaga i-point out na hindi alpha at omega ng buhay sila gma and jee.
———————————
I can se your point, Manolo. It could also happen that way.
But then rather than going in a boring and nausaeting Gloria/Erap circle of hell. Id rather have everyone grounded. Its not gong any where anyway. What the whoel point?
Better disengage, sober up , calm down , absorbed oall the learnings from what was happening, to be able to gather enough strength and wisdom and stategize stategically for the more important task facing us.
I belive the real foundation of the next administration is the learning of the people from the Gloria, Erap even Cory and Marcos mess. If the peopel did not learn at all then teh country is doomed no matter who will be the next president is.
rego on Mon, 17th Sep 2007 9:50 am
rego’s comments made a lightbulb switch on over my head. in a siege, both the besieged and those laying siege end up drowning in their own filth.
————————————————-
Im really sorry if you feel besieged. I just wanted more clarifications from your recent writing which I find very inconsistent to your advocies even bordering on hypcorisy
rego on Mon, 17th Sep 2007 9:52 am
rego, the flaw i see in your comment is, charges flow out of an assumption: when cases were filed against estrada, people didn’t say, “let us investigate and see maybe, perhaps, who knows, something might be fishy.†they said, “hey, he took x, stole y, looted z.†that’s where the impeachment then the court stepped in, to determine if this was so. so at present, the accusations against the president are at a similar point, except it will certainly take a lot more work, because to be blunt about it, estrada was uniquely crass and obvious about his misdeeds. in a sense that can help explain why estrada was doomed, legally, in 6 years, the marcoses are still fighting it out: fm was, after all, not only a brilliant lawyer but hired brilliant lawyers and didn’t trust local banks.
——————————————————–
Manolo,
It could be that the crassness of Estrada misbehavior prevented people from entertaining doubts about his misdeed. The media especially the PCIJ has published all the photos of Estrada excesses . Then there is a an eyewitness account from the like of Chavit. Pinoys can be very visual you know. But just the same Erap did undergo some sort of investigation through impeachment.
Then the people that work against Erap then just worker harder that the people that work against Gloria.
One thing I noticed too is that while the opposition know very well that Gloria is a tougher and smarter breed than Erap, they never change strategies. They went on with the old and jaded stategies used on Erap which the Aroyo mastered to evade., Like people power, resignation.( eh kung si Erap nag dedeny pa rin hanggang nagyon na nag resign sya eh, tapos dadaanin pa rin sa paresign resign si Gloria)
Honestly, I like that idea of one Ateneo professor in our group during the Garci scandal. since Gloria wont resign, then let malacanang be her prison cell. Make her really work for the country. Bantayan na ng husto and constantly threaten her wit impeachment everytime she misbehave. Then when her immunity expired bring her to court.
I agree with you that prosecuting Gloria after her term would be very difficult. But then if we hant her to pay for whatever crime she comited while in power then we just have to prosecute her after her term.
I really believe that we handled Erap in a very emotional manner consequently so many rules, laws, and principle were broken. That explains the never ending debates until now.And this is the reason why I dont want to employ the same emotional approach on the Gloria problem. I want very step in accordance to the law, rules and principles that we already had. That I believe will miminimize the never ending debates, confusions and bickerings. It woudl be more orderly therefore the damage to country will be minimal too.
Mike Aroyo is has faced all the investigation against him. But the problem is the evidence against him is just not enough to pin him down. The same way tha Erap evade some other crimes like Boracay mansion, the Dacer kilings, the disapperance of the casino worker who leaked that casino video etc etc………………….
hvrds on Mon, 17th Sep 2007 11:20 am
“If President Gloria Arroyo were running an election campaign, her slogan could be: “Vote for Me — And If You Don’t Like Me, Even Better, Leave and Send Money Home.” At least tacitly, the Philippines encourages ever more citizens to leave.”
“Asia’s developing economies must avoid falling deeper into this trap. The argument for remittances in the short run is sensible enough. In the long run, though, an economy’s biggest export should never be its people.” William Pesek, Bloomberg
Just keep sending those dollars home folks, we have to keep our enlightened aristocrats presently led by Big Mike and GMA and off course Erap in the standards they are used to living. Pardon or amnesty, what is the difference, if he could keep the decision from ever being final and die while under appeal he could die without a final conviction.
Don’t you worry as Wowwowee will be coming soon to your neighborhood to initiate you in the global pinoy nation. .
Let us start now on selecting our next elected autocrat from Villar, Roxas, de Castro, Gordon, Legarda etc.
It is time we gave a new family a crack at raiding the treasury all over again.
taga de cebu on Mon, 17th Sep 2007 12:38 pm
What do Macoy/Erap/Ate Glo have in common:
* They were/are so arrogant – they think they are so smart that no one will catch their blatant lies.
* They were/are stupid – they left big holes in the story that most people would be able to fly a commercial plane through it.
* They were/are liars without a sense of ethics and would do anything to get ahead.
taga de cebu on Mon, 17th Sep 2007 1:35 pm
“Lil Dick” Gordon was at his most arrogant self in the”interrogation” of Doble in the Senate. Parang pang subic lang talaga,”barking orders” like a feudal lord. tsk.tsk.tsk…
grd on Mon, 17th Sep 2007 1:50 pm
whoa, my earlier post was lost too! i was very sure i‘ve posted this earlier.
bencard, if you have been observant you should have known that the outrage happened a long time ago to be specific, march 20 2001, and the result was the disgraceful and forceful ouster of estrada. that’s the ultimate consequence of that outrage. the people have succeeded in stopping him from further abusing the power entrusted in him. as for the verdict, it’s just an affirmation to the legitimacy of that move. the people is done with estrada. he’s finished. but there’s another outrage. it started last june 2005 (if you know what i mean). it’s continuously building up w/ anomalies after anomalies committed and if you are one of those right thinking filipinos that you’ve mentioned, you should be outrage too. otherwise, you are one hypocrite person too for practicing the same double standard that you’re deploring here. you and your alter (r)ego cannot blame estrada now for the divisiveness and the obscurity that’s continuously engulfing the country. but one thing i’m certain, gloria will suffer the same fate as estrada. they might receive pardon from their crimes but they, together w/ their family and future members will be subjected to extreme humiliation. because unlike hubert web and other ordinary criminals, their stories will forever be inscribed in our history books and passed on to future generations.
grd on Mon, 17th Sep 2007 1:52 pm
by the way, what happened to the P130M proceeds from tobacco excise tax since the testimony of singson was trashed by the sandiganbayan? and what happened to the share of kurakot ni singson? did he return all of these to the government as part of a deal?
justice in waiting on Mon, 17th Sep 2007 3:09 pm
“Mike Aroyo is has faced all the investigation against him. But the problem is the evidence against him is just not enough to pin him down. The same way tha Erap evade some other crimes like Boracay mansion, the Dacer kilings, the disapperance of the casino worker who leaked that casino video etc etc……….”
Would you think evidence against Estrada, a single one of them including the jueting kickbacks, the excise tobacco taxes withdrawal would stick if say for example it was his “Erap” (Buddy) who is in Malacanang? And would you think if the investigation against Mike Arroyo will not go “full steam ahead if Gloria was overthrown and both of them are charged of any Crime? Weder, weder lang yan, kung sin-o na sa poder may evidensiya, pag wala, pasensiya…that is the rule of law as it stands now. Show me any in the administration that is not coated with “Teflon” and I’ll show you a fully cloth deposed emperor.
Dirk Pitt on Mon, 17th Sep 2007 5:58 pm
MB writes
“I’ve been getting text messages that the mystery man in the NBN deal is Buboy Macapagal, Gloria’s low-profile brother.”
From Newsbreak:
“De Venecia mentioned businessman Ruben Cesar C. Reyes’s name in the Inquirer story as one of those who attended a breakfast meeting with him and Abalos at the Wack Wack Golf and Country Club in Mandaluyong over the controversial US$329-million National Broadband Network project.
“…Reyes is likewise a good friend of the President’s younger brother, Diosdado “Buboy†Macapagal Jr.”
Perhaps MB is correct.
karl garcia on Mon, 17th Sep 2007 6:15 pm
Since we are into trivial pursuits at times.
HVRDS says:
(Lesson: share power or literally loose your head)
Devil’s dictionary says:
Lose – the act of losing something or the act of not winning
Loose – to let go, not fitting (maluwag)
lose cannot apply because the head is not lost,if you want to reaattach it.
but to define loose as to let go; needs double checking.
ever heard of the song” I don’t want to lose you.
karl garcia on Mon, 17th Sep 2007 6:22 pm
I remember a teacher reminding us of her pet peeves.
It’s like saying don’t mind me, just don’t keep on doing that thing you do…
Of course we did the later.
karl garcia on Mon, 17th Sep 2007 6:24 pm
I beg your endulgence for my spelling devil’s,kahit ako naiinis pagakatapos ko basahin ang mga posts ko.
karl garcia on Mon, 17th Sep 2007 6:41 pm
WTF,another wrong spelling. me spel lcheck naman kasi at dictionary.com
Back to the topic at hand….
HVRDS says just allow another autocrat and another surname to reign supreme.
what does he want then,we go for an automaton,instead?
I would rather have none of those two.
Digressing a bit
I think we stop looking at other countries’ leaders and learn from all the messes we’ve created.
Look for a role model in them,from all the good in them and all the bad in them,na sa tingin ko,nandito na halos lahat sa commnet thread ng topic na ito,and of course from previous entries,na sa tingin ko wala pa ding kupas.
taga de cebu on Mon, 17th Sep 2007 7:55 pm
UMALIS NA!
Mike Arroyo slips out on eve of Senate ZTE probe
By Tarra Quismundo
Inquirer
Last updated 06:44pm (Mla time) 09/17/2007
MANILA, Philippines–First Gentleman Jose Miguel Arroyo slipped out of the country at sunset Monday, the eve of the Senate investigation into the controversial National Broadband Network (NBN) deal with China’s ZTE Corp.
Arroyo was last to board Cathay Pacific flight CX-918 some 10 minutes before the plane took off for Hong Kong at 5:55 p.m. It was not clear whether he was to take a connecting flight to another destination.
taga de cebu on Mon, 17th Sep 2007 8:07 pm
“In your SWOT analysis of Mr.Palengke; does the strengths offset the weakneaes and like wise the Opporunities offset the threats?
I hope your answer would be like your comment on my comment regarding gordon…and not a quotation. KG”
In the past, we always chose the lesser evil in election.I honestly think that Mar Roxas is not the lesser evil but the Best choice in 2010.I’m not looking at him with rose-colored glasses.He has weaknesses(“SPINELESS”) but who is perfect anyway?
I know for a fact that he was a most reluctant politician at the start.He was doing very well in Wall Street.So he he is not the consumate politician like your Ate glue.
taga de cebu on Mon, 17th Sep 2007 8:37 pm
Ronaldo Puno:Poltical Adviser to three president (GMA,ERAP,MARCOS)
1)DILG Secretary Ronald Puno is president of the Kabalikat ng Malayang Pilipino (Partner of the Free Filipino) or Kampi, the party formed by President Gloria Macapagal-Arroyo in 1998.
2)DILG chief to former President ERAP.
3)Puno served as assistant DILG secretary during the MARCOS regime
Why was/is Ronnie Puno such a sought-after presidential adviser during the GMA/ERAP/MARCOS administratons???
Your comments pls.
cvj on Tue, 18th Sep 2007 12:41 am
TDC, i remember it was the father, Ricardo Puno who served under Marcos (as Justice Minister). Anyway, i’ve always seen the Puno family as making available their considerable intellect and managerial talent in the service of the current Dark Lord, whoever he/she may be. Maybe they have to fulfill some sort of pact.
Bencard on Tue, 18th Sep 2007 6:30 am
now you see it, now you don’t! practically all my most recent comments have been lost. early last night (edt), they appeared only to disappear later. they appeared again this morning only to vanish once more as of this posting. what gives? i know its happening to most of the other posters.
only manolo’s entries appear to be untouchable. then again, he’s the host, right? (just kidding, mlq3).
thanks, cvj for saving them in your “parallel universe”. see, i don’t know how to save my comments. often, i have to reconstruct them from memory.
tonio on Tue, 18th Sep 2007 8:12 am
not that they meant much, but yeah… my stuff on this thread disappeared too. weird.
taga de cebu on Tue, 18th Sep 2007 8:35 am
CVJ:Ronaldo Puno could be the only person keeping the dark secret behind the three regimes!
cvj on Tue, 18th Sep 2007 8:54 am
Bencard, i believe that particular set of comments will reappear shortly, and these ones will disappear. The cycle will repeat itself until the two database replicas are synchronized.
rego on Tue, 18th Sep 2007 9:14 am
GRD,
I dont think there was a double standard in my part. I wanted to get rid of Gloria and have her prosecuted for the her alleged crimes the same way that you do.
I think the our differences lie on how to go afater her. I made my stand very clearly. I wanted to to follow the existing rules and laws on presecuting a sitting president. And thats is impeachment. I did not and will not insist on resignation because she already indicated that she wont resign. And I beleive that is her prerogative and she all the right not to resign. Call her thick face or any ugly words you want at the higest decibel of your voice as you can. But still it doesn’t change that fact that the decision to resign will only come from her.
The impeachment is not working and there seem to be no move to impeach her anymore. I still would want the opposition to file impeachment until the very end of her term. And if we can impeach her. Then there is no other option but to prosecute her after her immunity is
gone and that is when she no longer a president.
Now I give you my may of doing it, so what is yours? I havent exactly read your comments indicating what is your way of getting rid of Gloria. Why dont lay them here so we can discuss the viability and doability of such option.
rego on Tue, 18th Sep 2007 9:32 am
Justice in waiting,
Di ko ma get ng husto kung ano talaga ang tanong mo, pero susubukin ko pa ring sasagot sa paraang ng pagka unawa ko…
—-
“Would you think evidence against Estrada, a single one of them including the jueting kickbacks, the excise tobacco taxes withdrawal would stick if say for example it was his “Erap†(Buddy) who is in Malacanang?”
—-NO, there will be cover-up I guess. This is exactly the reason why I pushing for an independent person for 2010. ( from Gloria and Erap) So there will be no cover-ups.
———-
“And would you think if the investigation against Mike Arroyo will not go “full steam ahead if Gloria was overthrown and both of them are charged of any Crime?”
—-Palagay ko mag kakaroon ng full investiagtion pag na overthrow si Gloria. Pero dahil hindi pa naman sya naooverthrow. malamAng yung full investigation ay mangyayari na lamang pag wala na sya sa poder.
————-
“Weder, weder lang yan, kung sin-o na sa poder may evidensiya, pag wala, pasensiya…that is the rule of law as it stands now.”
—Sorry di ko tagal makuha ang ibig sabihin nito, pwedeng pakipaliwanag pa ng husto..
————-
“Show me any in the administration that is not coated with “Teflon†and I’ll show you a fully cloth deposed emperor.”
— No, I cant show you one becuse I dont excatly undertand what you meant by “covered with teflon”
(I know what is teflon tape, of course). Can you still show me a fully cloth deposed emperor. Im not obliging you only if you would be so happy to show me one…
Jeg on Tue, 18th Sep 2007 10:21 am
I see what you mean about the parallel universes. I dont think it’s the database. We are caught in a trans-dimensional flux. Make sure you leave a note in writing not to call the doctors when your housemates or office co-workers find you seemingly dead. Tell them your consciousness could be in the other dimension and you should return soon.
Too bad Dean Alfar’s deadline for his anthology has passed. This story couldve been a doozy!
cvj on Tue, 18th Sep 2007 3:47 pm
Jeg, too bad that i don’t sport a goatee in either Universe.
Rego, your Ateneo professor friend should follow the ZTE hearings to see for himself how much his ‘make Malacanang a prison‘ suggestion is such a dumbass idea.