The GK ideological split
August 24, 2007 by mlq3
Filed under Daily Dose
In the news, Malacañang circles the wagons on ‘Garci’ (see Newsbreak on The President’s Ad Hoc Style) even as Senators split on wiretap inquiry (the Inquirer editorial says an investigation’s in order). Political recycling continues: Arroyo security adviser to head legislative liaison office (so Gabby Claudio’s out; and Joaquin Llagonera?) On the Mindanao front, Sacked officer confirms aircraft were recalled.
This is interesting: More RP firms join race to set up stake in Vietnam.
This may become politically significant: Couples admits ‘divorce’ over Gawad Kalinga and Split rocks CfC; Meloto quits Gawad Kalinga. The debate seems as much about a more secular orientation for GK as it was an effort to maintain the exclusively Catholic orientation, perhaps even vaguely socialist orientation of the movement (a story like this, for example, goes to the heart of the leadership split: Call center training for Gawad Kalinga residents mulled). Anyway, end result: Split in Couples for Christ May Hurt GK Housing Projects.
Overseas, some nifty readings, indeed. Let’s begin with Thailand’s referendum: The long march back to the barracks, which takes a highly critical view of the country’s latest effort at constitution-writing (In Thailand: After the Constitutional Referendum takes a less obviously critical, but extremely cautious, look). A Thai newspaper op-ed piece points to A recirculation of elites in Thai politics (a necessary thing, and when the process is thwarted, it causes even more problems).
And there’s not one, but two, excerpts from “Asian Godfathers” (Joe Studwell) published in Asia Sentinel. Extra! Extra! Read all about it! The first chapter is How to be a Post-war Godfather:
In the Philippines another usurper, Ferdinand Marcos, demonstrated a similar response to Suharto’s with respect to the possibilities of godfather relationships. After winning two presidential terms in (distinctly dirty) elections, Marcos circumvented his country’s two-term presidential limit by declaring martial law in 1972. Like Suharto, he also looked beyond the established godfather élite – in the Philippines, traditional Spanish and Chinese mestizo families – to find some of his key business proxies. The archetype was Lucio Tan, a first-generation immigrant and one-time janitor who became, under Marcos’ patronage, the Philippines’ leading tobacco vendor, as well as having interests in everything from banking to real estate.
It is probable that – as with Liem Sioe Liong, who knew Suharto from the latter’s military postings in central Java – Tan and Marcos knew each other from Ilocos, the president’s home region where Tan had his first, small cigarette factory. Both Suharto and Marcos signalled regime change by promoting new, non-indigenous outsiders to godfather roles. Tan was a clear break in the ethnically more mixed and integrated Philippines because he represented the so-called ‘one-syllable Chinese’ – those who had not assimilated and adopted local surnames.
The promotion of new outsiders achieved two useful things for the dictators: it provided ultra-dependent, ultra-loyal sources of future finance for them and their families; and it served as a warning to the established, more integrated economic élite that it was not indispensable.
In the pre-Marcos Philippines, businessmen of every ethnic make-up had been increasingly successful in overrunning and manipulating a weak parliamentary system and thereby obviating the need to make deals with ultimate political power. Ferdy reversed this trend, though it remains a latent tendency in both the Philippines and Thailand whenever central leadership is weakened.
The second is, what those godfathers focus on: Core cash flow:
In the Philippines a tradition of political allocation of state offices and government largesse built up from the 1920s, under American colonial rule, until it reached its logical conclusion under Ferdinand Marcos. There were trading monopolies for major foodstuff imports, and marketing monopolies for the key local crops – sugar and coconuts.
Eduardo ‘Danding’ Cojuangco was one of the leading Marcos monopolists. (It is a reminder of the small and élitist world in which money and power resides in Southeast Asia that Danding is from the same landed family as Cory Aquino, whose ‘people power’ movement overthrew Marcos in 1986.) Danding, a Marcos favorite, benefited from a new levy on coconut production that funded the development of United Coconut Planters Bank. He was made president of the bank, which in turn bought up most of the Philippines’ coconut milling facilities. Danding’s coconut cash flows were strong enough to buy up much more besides. He became known as Mr Pacman, after the video game character that eats everything in its path.
Marcos monopolies set new standards in the powers they conferred. Lucio Tan’s Fortune Tobacco Co., which was given tax, customs, financing and regulatory breaks that were tantamount to a domestic monopoly on cigarette making, wrote a new cigarette tax code that Marcos signed into law. In the same period Tan is alleged to have printed his own internal revenue stamps to paste on cigarette packets. The cash flow from tobacco propelled him into chemicals, farming, textiles, brewing, real estate, hotels and banking. After Marcos fled to Hawaii in 1986, Tan wrote an open letter to new president Cory Aquino in which he asserted: ‘We can proudly say that we have never depended on dole-outs, government assistance or monopoly protection throughout our history.’
…The crudeness of the monopolies handed out by Marcos and Suharto tends to obscure the almost universal presence of monopolies, cartels and controlled Asian markets in Southeast Asia.
Of course these things aren’t new to Filipinos; but what will be new to Filipino readers is how similar things are in neighboring countries.
Elsewhere, relevant reading in terms of ongoing debates on the the Japan-RP free trade agreement: Indonesia-Japan EPA: Who’s getting the best deal? And In South Korea: “This is What Democracy Looks Like!â€. In Foreign Affairs, Elizabeth C. Economy looks at China and asks if in environmental terms, it isn’t taking a harmful “Great Leap Backward”. The Economist asks whether President Putin isn’t building a “neo-KGB state” in Russia. In Australia, an ongoing debate on the nature of Federalism; one issue involves hospitals: Hospital plan puts focus back on ‘new federalism’. By the way,
Australian government caught editing Wikipedia.
The Magnificent Seven looks at American soldiers who’ve published an op-ed piece criticizing their government’s conduct of the war in Iraq; Sir, Can I Publish This, Sir! clarifies the circumstances under which soldiers can criticize their government. Ah, and The Credit Crunch in Financial Markets Remains Severe, says Roubini.
On a lighter note, Vanity Fair on how Ralph Lauren captured the public imagination.
Amando Doronila’s column today, is somewhat related to the above, in terms of the role coercion plays in politics (and by extension, business).
From Patricio Diaz of Mindanews, a two part series, Metamorphosis 1 and Metamorphosis 2, on the evolution of Filipino Muslim political thought.
In his column, Dan Mariano discusses Roberto Verzola’s suggestions for a more productive approach to election automation.
In the blogosphere… I remember that the President’s famous “I. Am. Sorry.” speech had people divided between those for whom it was far from being enough, and others who felt it was a breathtaking act of contrition. The clincher, of course, was that for some it was too little, too late, for others, more than enough. The same applies as news has begun to circulate Society columnist quits over OFW bashing (see also Manila Standard columnist quits after getting OFWs’ ire). For details on the actual letter of apology itself, see Ang Kape Ni LaTtEX. In Piercing Pens, there is more information, including People Asia saying it will publish the letter of apology in lieu of Malu Fernandez’s next column.
As An OFW Living in Hong Kong points out, this was a demonstration of political muscle by OFWs and their families. I am not convinced it was totally an achievement of the blogosphere: it’s still a small circle compared to the online media Filipinos congregate in, in truly significant numbers, and that’s e-groups (and e-mail: the magazine article was scanned, then circulated by e-mail, some time before it finally started being commented on in blogdom). The impact of a statement by press associations, such as the one issued by the Filipino Press Club in Dubai, is also the sort of thing media practitioners from the older generation get impressed.
So my observation is that the blogosphere has become fully integrated into established fora and information-opinion networks of Filipinos, at home and abroad; and that, furthermore, the blogosphere along with other online media now creates its own news and yes, it can rock the older media to its foundations, whether print, television, or radio; and it has become to serve as an effective check-and-balance, not only to the media, but to itself (see Nasty Me and Superblessed, and Tanuki Tales, who is glad it’s all at an end). Everyone got thoroughly scrutinized on this one, not just in blogs but in e-mail discussion groups. It’s not as if it hasn’t always been there, but Class Struggle suddenly got validated (or one step closer, anyway, see Ajay’s Writings on the Wall, which incidentally has the best Malu photo caption ever), and as with all revolutionary notions, it isn’t a picnic as Mao said.
Nonetheless, I think the combined letter of apology and resignation from the paper and magazine, were the proper form of atonement and Malu Fernandez deserves credit for it. An apology is never easy, resignation even harder, and both, combined, is an unusual yet potent combination -and an example of accountability (on her part, to be sure; and even People Asia’s, if and when it publishes her letter; the newspaper dodged a bullet without saying anything). But there will be those who will be watching with keen suspicion, for some time to come (see Taragis na Buhay to, for example).
blog@AWBHoldings.com takes a look at the overall implications of the issue for bloggers (a pyrrhic victory, he says). For thorough look on our changing demographics, see Jove Francisco’s tribute to OFWs.
Technorati Tags: Blogging, economy, federalism, Gloriagate, Hello Garci, history, ideas, journalism, korea, media, military, mindanao, philippines, politics, president, Senate, society, war
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Jon Mariano on Fri, 24th Aug 2007 2:41 pm
The OFW is empowered by the internet (as you mentioned by email, usergroups, blogs, and other means combined). We are spread out all over the world and the internet is the only way to get together and join forces. It’s in a very early stage and as usual nobody can really put a handle on how to do it widely and consistently. The issue must be of interest to many as the Malu Fernandez one.
An example of a “move” by OFWs to flex their muscle that won’t take off is not to remit money for a certain period of time.
Jeg on Fri, 24th Aug 2007 2:46 pm
An example of a “move†by OFWs to flex their muscle that won’t take off is not to remit money for a certain period of time.
That made the hairs at the back of my neck stand up, JM.
Rom on Fri, 24th Aug 2007 3:10 pm
jonmariano:why don’t the OFW communities turn out in bigger numbers to vote? if you were half as interested in helping choose national leaders as you were in avenging the insult to you, i would imagine that more ofws would have voted in 2004 and 2007.
manuelbuencamino on Fri, 24th Aug 2007 3:27 pm
JM,
Witholding remittances won’t take off kasi naman gugutumin nila ang mga pamilya nila dito sa Pilipinas.
However, Witholding remittances is a powerful pressure tool but it requires a lot of thinking about timing and hitting the right target,
manuelbuencamino on Fri, 24th Aug 2007 3:29 pm
Rom,
I think the logistics of voting has a lot to do with low turn-outs among OFW voters.
Jon Mariano on Fri, 24th Aug 2007 3:30 pm
Jeg and Rom, OFWs in general act on things that interest them. Elections apparently is not at the top of the list (there are many reasons like difficulty in registration, long distance travel to voting stations, can’t a get a day off on election day, etc.)
You may also notice that the Malu case was an “easy” one as nobody has to get away from their desks or work places to take part.
Jon Mariano on Fri, 24th Aug 2007 3:32 pm
MB, you’re right on witholding of remittances. For OFWs family comes first (again, generally speaking).
john marzan on Fri, 24th Aug 2007 3:37 pm
“breathtaking act of contrition.” heh.
Rom on Fri, 24th Aug 2007 3:43 pm
ah. hopefully, more ofws will be more concerned with less easy issues like choosing national leaders.
manuelbuencamino on Fri, 24th Aug 2007 3:52 pm
In retrospect, the Malu issue was about political correctness. It involved politically incorrect speech.
That’s a lot different from hate speech.
I don’t think we should censor political incorrectness. That kind of censorship is “p.c. fascism”, the sort of ideology peddled in shows like Oprah etc..
Sayang, no more great fat jokes, no more insults, and ad hominem attacks on that blimp. She’s gone.
No more pig in the poker gone and I was just working up an appetite.
And her final squeals weren’t all that satisfying either.
Grrr….
Anyway, I’m putting up a bounty on Malu.
P1000 to anyone who can publish a picture of her in a swimsuit. A bonus of P500 if she’s in a thong bikini.
john marzan on Fri, 24th Aug 2007 4:08 pm
http://www.manilastandardtoday.com/?page=news4_aug23_2007
Man, this got ugly ano?
GK pala is “God’s Kingdom”. And some of the statements made by former GK members are a little extreme, IMO.
Rank Merida on Fri, 24th Aug 2007 5:33 pm
Re Gawad Kalinga, I was always of the opinion that GK has not been very honest in its self-promotion. In article after article about GK it seems there is this underlying tone that what they have been doing – building houses for the poor – is their own invention. Habitat for Humanity has been there, done that ages ago.
Shaman of Malilipot on Fri, 24th Aug 2007 6:14 pm
What I didn’t like about the Malu affair was the collateral damage on Miss Piggy. How dare they compare Malu to Miss Piggy. Sa wit lang, malayung-malayo si Malu.
Moi!
BrianB on Fri, 24th Aug 2007 6:52 pm
“Of course these things aren’t new to Filipinos; but what will be new to Filipino readers is how similar things are in neighboring countries.”
It’s not the monopoly; it’s the racism.
BrianB on Fri, 24th Aug 2007 6:55 pm
“I don’t think we should censor political incorrectness. That kind of censorship is “p.c. fascismâ€, the sort of ideology peddled in shows like Oprah etc.”
Free speech is pretty nebulous on this one. What I’m interested in is the balance of power between the classes.
BrianB on Fri, 24th Aug 2007 6:59 pm
You won’t believe this, but I used to be in the Youth for Christ, CFC arm made up of kids of CFC members. I’ve met both Meloto and Padilla. Couldn’t remember which one was the conservative. One of them offered his Playboy to me when I was staying in his house.
It’s always like this. There is a conservative and there is a liberal.
BrianB on Fri, 24th Aug 2007 7:04 pm
“Sayang, no more great fat jokes, no more insults, and ad hominem attacks on that blimp. She’s gone.”
Know why Malu smelled so fine? It’s the whale blubber.
BrianB on Fri, 24th Aug 2007 7:04 pm
“Sayang, no more great fat jokes, no more insults, and ad hominem attacks on that blimp. She’s gone.”
Know why Malu smelled so fine? @hale blubber.
BrianB on Fri, 24th Aug 2007 7:09 pm
Can’t believe Tony Meloto’s girl married a British national. Now, I know who offered me the Playboy, but I’m not telling.
jaxius on Fri, 24th Aug 2007 7:29 pm
i wonder what you people would say if Malu Fernandez looked like Lucy Torres. or angel locsin.
ah, bigotry begets bigotry. such a nice ring to it.
manuelbuencamino on Fri, 24th Aug 2007 7:49 pm
jaxius,
“i wonder what you people would say if Malu Fernandez looked like Lucy Torres. or angel locsin.”
good question. but that won’t get in the way of my carnal desires for the two beauties you mentioned. And even if Malu were the nicest person on earth, I still won’t fuck her.
Will you?
Karl Garcia on Fri, 24th Aug 2007 8:35 pm
“i wonder what you people would say if Malu Fernandez looked like Lucy Torres. or angel locsin.â€
That is why I don’t believe the Filipinos lack certain words in their vocabulary,because for certain they can think of something,if those two wrote something controversial like that.Lucy is more inclined to,because she writes for the Philippine Star.
But Manuel,when you say nicest,inside or outside?
Devilsadvc8 on Fri, 24th Aug 2007 9:09 pm
the GK split is a cycle that all NGOs undergo. see Randy David’s explanation on this one.. (basically, when organizations grow bigger, two paths emerge, to develop the org into a bureaucracy and lose all sense of being an NGO or to split the org into smaller tight-knit groups) Of course the GK split we have here run in ideological lines. But that’s just natural as organizations grow.
and wow, na extra tayo sa cases of “successful” counterinsurgency campaigns. here’s the excerpt from Fred Kaplan’s piece from the link provided by Manolo (The Magnificent Seven).
“The cases of “successful” counterinsurgency campaigns that many advocates and historians cite—most notably, the Americans in the Philippines, the British in Malaya—involved much more brutality than we would likely tolerate today and perhaps more casualties and time as well.”
That puts to rest, any questions, that the US did wage their war agst the Filipino guerillas during the Phil-American war in a brutal fashion.
As for the wiki editing, it’s just natural that self-serving interested parties try to “edit” history thru wiki. after all, wikipedia is growing to be the easiest way to “learn history.” The lesson here is: wiki administrators should be more vigilant in guarding their websites against any vested interest. all edits should have proper sources to back them up.
as for OFWs demonstrating political muscle, I think the online community, not merely OFWs did much of the muscle flexing (for the OFWs). so this was a demonstration of the internet’s power if anything else. and truly if it really wanted to use its massive political clout (lying dormant), joining elections would be the best thing OFWs can do. Let 2010 signal this new age. logistics or no, desire is the single biggest factor all OFWs need to contend with. do they still care and how much for them to act?
you can bet that only if media start blaring this idea on TV, OFWs would realize their folly in abdicating their only power of affecting real change, and start using that power for good.
but i’ve long since given up on Lopez and Gozon. they can both burn in hell for the part they’ve played in perpetuating social injustice here in the Phils. Cojuangco doesn’t count. ABC 5 viewership is too negligible to consider. and govt stations are so out of the question as well.
and Verzola will be my hero if he successfully manages to inform more people of his idea abt election automation. wake up mediamen and give this guy some help! bloggers, time again for some serious information campaign if mass media won’t lift a finger on this one. (and thanks Manolo for the heads up. thank Dan Mariano for us too)
now that i think abt it, why have we crucified Malu while failing to take the bigwigs of the industry to task? is it bec she’s too easy to dislike (with her figure and all…) Jaxius said it all: bigotry begets bigotry. well, Malu suffered a dose of her own medicine and suffice to say, she discovered it was a bitter pill indeed.
cvj on Fri, 24th Aug 2007 9:19 pm
Devils, I’m also glad Verzola’s advocacy warning against automating the wrong parts of the election process is at least getting some attention. Consultants and Suppliers who advocate election automation for commercial gain should be viewed as a threat to our democracy.
Devilsadvc8 on Fri, 24th Aug 2007 9:42 pm
cvj, eye opener talaga yung mga warnings nya abt automation being a false panacea. he’s right. it won’t completely eliminate human intervention. in fact, jz getting to the few people who controls the automation makes cheating so much easier. and damn, did he hit the issue right on the spot when he said counting in the precinct-level is the one that is most impt and finishes the fastest. eto dapat ang pinoprotektahan natin. and a system to publish online nationwide precinct counts would be better than counting machines. in fact, jz local citizens trooping to their various precincts and video taping the counting and then posting it on youtube would count a lot. let them doctor that if they can! (and jz imagine if all precincts can be covered!)
should we just sit back and let the comelec do the counting for us or do it ourselves? we already have the means, the technology… all we need is the desire to do so.
manuelbuencamino on Fri, 24th Aug 2007 9:45 pm
Just heard an oxymoron from Christian evangelical Pastor John Haggee, featured in CNN’s series “God’s Warriors”
Haggee said, “I am a Zionist Christian.”
Devilsadvc8 on Fri, 24th Aug 2007 9:49 pm
Damn MB, I completely forgot Christiane Amanpour! Is there still a replay? I miss all three parts!
manuelbuencamino on Fri, 24th Aug 2007 9:54 pm
“I am not a republican, I am not a democrat, I’m a christocrat” – Rick Scarborough, Baptist preacher and founder of Vision America.
Not a christlican?
cvj on Fri, 24th Aug 2007 9:54 pm
Devils, what i’m particularly worried about is that the government procurement process will ensure that the wrong election automation solution will be implemented.
I suppose that at this stage, big-time entrepreneurs & financiers together with their IT partners (foreign and local) are already talking to this or that government official (or relative). They will all try to influence the specifications that will go into the Request for Proposal(RFP). Some of them will even propose innovative financing schemes like ‘Build-Operate-Transfer’ or ‘Build-Operate-Own’ a-la LTO licensing.
In my work, i’ve seen that process up close when i was still based in the Philippines so i know how these guys think (both on the vendor and the customer side). Back then, the word ’snake-oil salesman’ always crosses my mind.
manuelbuencamino on Fri, 24th Aug 2007 10:08 pm
cvj,
that soup slurping comelec commissioner will buy from whomever gives him the best deal.
Best thing is to avoid any major purchases while that guy has his hands on the soup spoon.
Devilsadvc8 on Fri, 24th Aug 2007 10:19 pm
cvj, we can fight it. bigger, better, more aware next time.
cvj on Fri, 24th Aug 2007 10:28 pm
MB, i agree that kicking out the present commissioners would help, but even if it was Christian Monsod himself at the COMELEC, i believe the process itself is flawed. What won’t be lost through corruption can also be lost through ignorance (particularly the one that causes a mismatch between business requirements and technology implementations). I think there should be a cap on the amounts procured no matter who is at the helm.
Devils, if we rally around Verzola’s advocacy, i’m hopeful of that as well.
Karl Garcia on Fri, 24th Aug 2007 10:36 pm
Yes Cvj,
Unisys, as an example has such proposals in the dust bim
like anti carnapping chassis number detection and the likes.
Let us think positive and have a can do attitude,instead of the defeatist attitude of one person, ever so harsh to Pinoys,even mocking the Pinoy by saying pathetic Pinoy, Kawawang Pinoy and ang Pinoy nga naman.
What kind of help is that in nation building? Tough,love?
Or just plain cruelty. no matter how hard I try when I reread past entries.I really boil.
If We know who this guy is and find out he works for one of our broadsheets,the way he has been harsh not only to oFWs but to the whole Philippines,will we do the same move.
Lucky for him to have a cloak of anonimity.
Devilsadvc8 on Fri, 24th Aug 2007 10:38 pm
i think this year’s elections just proved that. but what we need isn’t many, separate cause-oriented groups. what we need are those groups ALL cooperating as ONE.
manuelbuencamino on Fri, 24th Aug 2007 10:56 pm
funny thing thing is that there is a growing movement in England and the US to go back to the traditional method of voting. They believe errors and cheating are harder to catch using those hi-tech voting machines.
Guess the moral of the story is honest referees. That’s the only way to ensure clean elections.
cvj on Fri, 24th Aug 2007 10:59 pm
Karl, maybe we should recommend him to the Manila Standard job position that Malu Fernandez just vacated and wait for events to take its course.
DJB on Fri, 24th Aug 2007 11:14 pm
MLQ3, Patricio Diaz says in the first essay you link to
“The metamorphosis is the transformation of a people seeking their rightful place in the present and the future anchored in Islam and the past they ever hold as glorious.”
Glorious? Tell that to Horacio de la Costa and the Jesuits, who throughout the Spanish colonial period were forever battling the Maguindanawons, the Tausugs and the Sulu SLAVE RAIDERS who were selling thousands of slaves to Borneo and other glorious Islamic sultanates taken from Cebu, Panay, Arevalo, and in an amazing raid involving 60 ships in 1602, the taking of 800 captives from as far away as Mindoro, Balayan, Batangas and Caliraya!
Then in his second essay, he says:
“Under the federal system [that] we propose as an alternative to secession or integration, there is a need to restructure the political unit [sic] of the nation. There is in turn a need to create political subdivisions, arranged in such a way that the Muslims of Mindanao and Sulu will constitute one political entity….â€
Oh great! One island for the Muslims, one for the Catholics, one for the Protestants, one for the Jehovahs… Sorry, but last time I checked THEOCRACY is outlawed under the Philippine constitution. He is suggesting religious apartheid, I think.
I got nothing against federalism, but it cannot be based on religion. That is against the Bill of Rights.
There will be no State or states, ever, whose future is “anchored on Islam” or any other religion. That is a recipe for a return to the year 1602.
There is one further metamorphosis Mr. Diaz misses:
I think the peace process is dead because the Moro Cause has already been hijacked by the Global Jihad and there is nothing he or we can do about it!
The best thing that could happen now is for Christians and Muslims to unite against the common threat and extirpate what is essentially a foreign invading force that has already gained many local adherents. Whether or not the Moro cause was valid before this, is no longer relevant.
As JI and AQ, they have no place here either now or in the future. Just as much as the sleepwalking Christians, we need to awaken the Muslims to the subsuming of their identity to the Caliphate. Now is the time to prove their spirit of independence.
manuelbuencamino on Fri, 24th Aug 2007 11:15 pm
He can join Bong “Let freedom wait” Austero
micketymoc on Fri, 24th Aug 2007 11:50 pm
Manolo, about “hello Garci” and the possibility of tapping into a “secure” GSM signal – I asked a few know-it-alls on ask.metafilter.com, and a few interesting answers came up. Make of ‘em what you will.
BrianB on Sat, 25th Aug 2007 12:53 am
“Oh great! One island for the Muslims, one for the Catholics, one for the Protestants, one for the Jehovahs… Sorry, but last time I checked THEOCRACY is outlawed under the Philippine constitution. He is suggesting religious apartheid, I think.”
The Muslims have always had special treatment. Ever heard of Mormons in the Philippines practicing polygamy? But the Muslims can.
cvj on Sat, 25th Aug 2007 1:00 am
DJB, i think you got it half-right. If the Filipino Christians (nominal or otherwise) and Muslims got together to expel both JI/AQ and the American/Australian soldiers, then we’d be spared this ‘Caliphate vs. Empire’ showdown.
Anyway, you’re probably right that there were slave traders in Sulu at around the time the Americans were exterminating the native population in the New World and the British Empire was trading Opium in the Far East.
BTW, whatever happened to your idea that the Church is ‘just another NGO’ and all that? Doesn’t this also apply to the Muslims?
renmin on Sat, 25th Aug 2007 1:31 am
DJB aka rizalist:
Re “Horacio de la Costa and the jesuits…” i suggest you re-read Rizal’s “Indolence of the Filipino” where he talks about how the spanish depopulated the islands through forced labor, conscription to fight in Indochina, etc.
“Whether or not the Moro cause was valid before this, is no longer relevant.” Breathtaking yet utterly predictable arrogance. you dismiss the Bangsa Moro struggle for self-determination, declare it subsumed under the “global jihad,” and draw a line based on Bush’s “with us or with the terrorists” soundbite.
supremo on Sat, 25th Aug 2007 1:45 am
Another possible way of tapping a cell phone conversation aside from SIM cloning.
“More than 100 mobile phone numbers belonging mostly to members of the Greek government and top-ranking civil servants were found to have been illegally tapped for a period of at least one year. The details of the case were presented at a press conference given by three government ministers on Thursday February 2, 2006. The phones tapped included those of the Prime Minister Kostas Karamanlis and members of his family, the Mayor of Athens, Dora Bakoyannis, most phones of the top officers at the Ministry of Defense, the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, and the Ministry for Public Order, members of the ruling party, the Hellenic Navy General Staff, the previous Minister of Defense (at the time a member of the opposition party), one phone of the American Embassy. Moreover, the mobile phones of former National Defence Minister Giannos Papantoniou and businessmen of Arab descent were also at the foresight of the wiretapping ring, as well as of former governmental officials from the Panhellenic Socialist Movement (PASOK)……
The case was opened when Vodafone Greece customers reported technical problems and prompted a review of the exchange software. On March 4 2005 Ericsson located in the software of two exchanges a so-called “lawful interception” subsystem of unknown origin that was never purchased or activated by Vodafone. Apparently, the subsystem was activated only when the interception was taking place and was somehow hidden at other times. This mode of operation made the subsystem difficult to locate by the routine auditing mechanisms of the software’s operation. On March 7 2005 Ericsson notified Vodafone of the existence of the interception subsystem.”
supremo on Sat, 25th Aug 2007 4:05 am
“The U.S. Commerce Department’s security office warns that “a cellular telephone can be turned into a microphone and transmitter for the purpose of listening to conversations in the vicinity of the phone.” An article in the Financial Times last year said mobile providers can “remotely install a piece of software on to any handset, without the owner’s knowledge, which will activate the microphone even when its owner is not making a call.”
DJB on Sat, 25th Aug 2007 4:42 am
cvj, Yes all churches have the same status as NGOs. That is precisely why they are called Non-Government Organizations. They are not allowed to BECOME governments, which is what a Federal State Anchored on Islam would be, no?
DJB on Sat, 25th Aug 2007 4:46 am
renmin,
I bet you have never actually read Jose Rizal’s essay, On the Indolence of the Filipinos.
I also bet that you have never actually read even a single one of George W. Bush’s speeches.
But let me guess, you read the Philippine Daily Innuendo everyday, browse the Renato Constantino stacks at National Bookstore (just enough to memorize the titles and backpage blurbs) and memorize every manifesto from the CPP NPA you can get your hands on.
But what were you saying about INDOLENCE?
cvj on Sat, 25th Aug 2007 7:37 am
DJB, at that time you introduced this idea of Church as NGO, your emphasis was on the eligibility of the Church (and its representatives), by virtue of their NGO status, to participate in political advocacy. You were using this as a counter to those who protested Church involvement on the principle of separation of Church and State. On participation in government, you also said (in connection with the issue of religious organizations being ineligible to participate in Party-List elections) awhile back that:
cvj on Sat, 25th Aug 2007 7:40 am
Sorry for the formatting error, the paragraph above…
I take it that everything you said about ‘Church as NGO’ and what you implied above as to the ‘weirdness’ of non-eligibility of participation of religious groups in Party-List elections also applies to Islamic organizations?
…should not be within block quotes as it is mine.
Karl Garcia on Sat, 25th Aug 2007 8:12 am
“Karl, maybe we should recommend him to the Manila Standard job position that Malu Fernandez just vacated and wait for events to take its course. ”
Yes and he could stick to his/her penname Benign0,it would not matter.
Sobra na ang panglalait nya, di na style yan eh,sakit na yata yan eh.
I retract from my earlier statements,that I am beginning to understand him,after dedicating an hour or two, just reading his comments.
It’s a good thing this Fernandez issue happened, madami pala ang kagaya ni Benigs.
BTW: Benigs,know anything about fashion? There’s a vacancy at the Standard.
Karl Garcia on Sat, 25th Aug 2007 8:29 am
Now to that GK,
Yeah,Habitat for Humanity has been doing that,President Jimmy Carter even assisted in building one home,(as seen on the news)
Just like any annulment case ;it is always the irreconcilable differences thing again.
I just hope the projects will go on ,and one project I am interested in is the One in Taguig where it is not only GK and Habitat but with synergy with the rest of the developers to build homes with rich and poor in one neighborhood. If that taguig project is succesful,why not spread it,but with internal spats like thatin GK, pano pa kaya yung group differences.
Nagkataon lang lahat ng namention ko sa taguig na developer at grupo ay may kanya kanyang separate project,may kanya kanyang mayor’s permit,kaya siguro naisip ni mayor na baka pwede ang nasa isip nya.
Karl Garcia on Sat, 25th Aug 2007 8:47 am
Re: Thailand
Pleaase allow me to post an excahnge with Jaxius:
jaxius :
Karl,
I asked about that because the proponents of that law failed to introduce an integral component,i.e., taking out the CSAFP and the major service commanders from the chain of command and relegating them to advisory positions (the major service commanders shall also have the primary duty of training and equipage of their units).
Making the CSAFP a fixed term position may not be in all fours with the principle of civilian control over the military. Imagine the president disagreeing with the CSAFP whether in a matter of principle or in a matter of strategy?
As the recent debacles faced by the AFP in Basilan where issues of interoperability between various services and intra-service rivalry have been raised, some sectors have raised whether the so-called area commands are of any use. Having the ground forces answerable to their respective services and the area commands lends to confusion and finger-pointing.
August 24th, 2007 at 7:18 pm
Karl Garcia :
Jaxius,
Correct,(in my opimion).
Re:Confusion, there was confusion on National policy and what the ground forces,just an example the forces thought Basilan was not included in the claim of MILF’s territory,while the peacemakers have agreed it was.
To be honest,my father dared FVR to step don as CSAFP because he ws ovestaying,but it is a good thing it was not taken personally by FVR,and hired him as ASEC in the last months of his presidency.
In my humble opinion ,I don’t know you are the legal eagle;I think the fixed term is not a deterrent for the president to fire the CSAFP.
As to the the president and the CSAFP,disagreeing,even if it does happen,will that be a risk for overthrow or kicking out a president ala Thailand/Thakshin?
August 25th, 2007 at 6:57 am
Karl Garcia :
Civilian control over the military.
Your example of President vs CSAFP was clear,but is it not stated in the constitution,is it not supposed to be Civilian Authority over the Military?
Back to Thailand.
I sense a civilian control through political rivals and king makers,just like home.
So, the bottomline is; what happened was civilian control not civilian authority control over military,at least during the EDsas 1 and 2.
We need a Magna Carta for professionalism of the military,if we don’t have one yet.Obviously the constitution was not followed during the the second Edsa after declaring that civilian authoritry over the military. With the goings on,which is top level priority?Lahat priority One.
August 25th, 2007 at 7:20 am
Karl Garcia :
But again Jaxius,
I think A fixed term would be beneficial for the AFP, if the CSAFP has a particular program.
In general ganyan ang nagyayari sa atin kahit san,lalo na sa sports, no continuity.
Continuity not continuous,iba yon.
Or would you rather have a micromanaging president?(kahit sa corporate world,it is very dreaded(micromanaging ceos,svps))
August 25th, 2007 at 7:43 am
inodoro ni emilie on Sat, 25th Aug 2007 10:17 am
“Karl, maybe we should recommend him to the Manila Standard job position.”
does he also come by at alternick d0d0ng? considering the stylometric 0 [zero] he subs for O? just wondering. not that it totally matters to me.
cvj on Sat, 25th Aug 2007 11:10 am
inidoro, if i were to guess, i think d0d0ng is another person altogether.
DJB on Sat, 25th Aug 2007 4:57 pm
cvj,
I think the answer is Yes, I stand by everything I said in various posts about religious assemblies being constitutionally indistinguishable from NGOs and even political parties representing marginalized sectors under the party list system.
That is because freedom of religion is a derivative of the freedom of opinion, and churches are nothing more than expressions of the freedom of assembly.
but are you asking me some kind of trick question. Surely an Islamic state, which gathers together all Muslims under a single political entity, which is what pat diaz is talking about cannot be mistaken by us for an NGO or political party list.
He’s talking about Bangsamorostan!
The weirdness of noneligibility is demonstrated in the fact, for example, that the No. 1 Party list this year was an El Shaddai controlled party list!
ouch!
Bencard on Sat, 25th Aug 2007 10:05 pm
“the gk ideological split” ? just another example of the impossibility of “unity” in any organization – from the smallest social club to a nation. personal interest, e.g., ambition, politics, power, popularity, applause, will always get in the way. pride and envy are a powerful engine of disunity leading to self-destruction.
Karl Garcia on Sat, 25th Aug 2007 10:16 pm
I.N.E
I also think DoD0ng is another person,but who knows.
Sa tingin ko lumalabas lang sya pag malapit na election while visting his website,his contributors have 2004 in mind,even misprojecting the supposed annualu buddget of the nextb admin.(what a blueprint it turned out to be.
At dinare pa ng isang contributor kung if you call your self Filipinos you contribute. Does that contributor know that he is on your website benigs? By the way you shown it there is nothing Filipinos left in you..
If his contributors know who they are are representing,I wonder if they will continue to be getrealist.
Ang isa pa sa di ko matanggap, di ko lang matanggap ay ang pag espouse ng change getrealist daw.
back to the article of my cousin(my grand father,mother Jim Paredes,he said he bloged the article,he did not,he contributed that for the Philippine Star and the online version has a comment section. And becasue he questioned certain barriers to change,he now got suddenly adopted him as a celebrity getrealist.
Come on Benigs,what are you trying to celebrate? Get Real!
Karl Garcia on Sat, 25th Aug 2007 10:20 pm
I was supposed to delete certain words,but then again I pressed submit like a trigger happy cowboy.
Karl Garcia on Sat, 25th Aug 2007 10:25 pm
Now to the three year deadline,to get rid of insurgency.
Say what again,madamme. Tell that to the Marines!
Oh you just did,with matching boodle fight!
Bencard on Sat, 25th Aug 2007 10:39 pm
i think benignO is the real devil’s advocate here, with due respect to the first one who adopted that name, devilsadvoc8. it appears that benignO’s is a lonely voice representing the opposite view, the unpopular, the unconventional. his words often hurts in the same manner that truth can cause pain. in a world of one-tract thinking and band-wagon mentality, his voice is a necessary component of free thought that brings us closer, if not to, the truth.
i, for one, respect and admire courageous non-conformity, a willingness to be judged harshly for his conviction, and be subjected to what amounts to a verbal lynching. popular points of view are not necessarily true and, conversely, unacceptable opinions are not necessarily false.
cvj on Sun, 26th Aug 2007 12:34 am
DJB, thanks for the clarifications. I asked the above questions as a straighforward query to find out (1) whether your ‘Church as NGO’ concept applies equally to Christian and Muslim individuals and/or parties – to which you answered ‘yes’; (2) whether you would in principle, allow the participation of Islamic parties in the party list process – to which you also answered ‘yes’; and (3) to identify where exactly you draw the line between ‘Church as NGO’ and a ‘Theocracy’ – which is not clear to me at this point.
In a democratic set-up, it is theoretically possible for a religious party, either nationally or in certain regions, to dominate (to the point of replacing secular political parties) because of popular support. In that event, wouldn’t an administration led by that religous group (whether Christian or Muslim) constitute a de-facto theocracy? What, in your scheme of things, prevents ‘Church as NGO’ from becoming a (popularly-supported) theocracy once a relgious party assumes power?
On your accusing Patricio Diaz of advocating an Islamic Theocracy (aka ‘Bangsamorostan’), i think some clarification is in order. The passage that you quoted above…
…was a proposal made by Michael Mastura back in 1971 in his capacity as delegate to the Constitutional Convention. Patricio Diaz was just recounting what Mastura said.
cvj on Sun, 26th Aug 2007 12:47 am
Bencard, from the published accounts, the GK-split was brought about by disagreements in matters of substance rather than the ‘pride and envy’ that you mention. I do believe though that such disagreements fueled the type of personality politics that we observe more commonly in government institutions. This is something that those who sought to disengage themselves from political involvement and concentrate instead on GK-type activities should reflect on.
nash on Sun, 26th Aug 2007 12:55 am
Has anyone noticed that most car drivers who have road rage have CfC stickers on their windshields?
Devilsadvc8 on Sun, 26th Aug 2007 1:38 am
Winnie Monsod’s column is titled, Get Real
I wonder…
naaah! couldn’t be. or could it?
could it?
Bencard on Sun, 26th Aug 2007 1:53 am
cvj, “personality politics” is not a monopoly of government institutions. ask any ngo officer or former officer, or a private organization funded by public contributions. ostensible cause of split may be “matters of substance” to you but if you scratch the surface a little deeper, you may find that, ultimately, it’s not for the cause but for applause. btw, you are right that this happens more frequently in power politics, e.g. multiple factions within the same party; factions within npa, milf, even maybe abu sayyap, the katipunan (magdalo and magdiwang), the communists (maoists and bolsheviks), the president’s cabinet (the hyatt 10 vs. the loyalists), etc., etc. the rest of the people are usually the pawns and unwitting tool of the struggle for power, but seldom, if ever, the beneficiary of it
baycas on Sun, 26th Aug 2007 3:20 am
on malu:
the keyboard is mightier than the pen.
if the pen is mightier than the sword,
then, the keyboard is mightier than the sword.
…btw, i was not referring to the enclosure of a fatty livestock which is also a pen…but, come to think of it…it was a pig’s pen that succumbed to the keyboard…
Karl Garcia on Sun, 26th Aug 2007 7:04 am
Bencard,
I it still devil’s advocating when you say it and mean it and then rub it in and add insult to injury?
OK forget it, Benigs had more than enough attention he deserved,pag mawala sya dito,mababawasan ng entertainment and thought pondering,and lumalabas na dapat nga natin mahalin ang Pilipinas,kung tama si Bencard na he is just merely devil’s advocating..
And Bencard,in addition…
I agree that in any split even emotions and the so called professional split,emotions are involved.
When they say,don’t decide when you are angry,even if that decision pushed through after a hang over,emotions
are still a factor. That goes the same in resigning,or in organized sports; being asked to be traded to another team.
In short…TAO lang po.
Karl Garcia on Sun, 26th Aug 2007 7:16 am
Me mali na naman sa tinype ko,basta I get my point accross.bahala na.
About unity in organizations,some organizations last for centuries,but of course the founding members are already six feet under.
Re: the chinese,again if we are to believe the cinemas,the modern chinoy’s story (Mano po)is different from the chinoy’s of the old,they use politics more now,because of their numbers and as a result of thir hard labor theyu use money now even as bribery or ransom paying.
But the point is they were able to do that become rich,while being frowned upon,in the so called dysfunctional society because of self responsibility,di ba kaya din naman natin yun?
Dapat yata si Flavier ang next president..sa slogan nya na LET’S DOH IT!
baycas on Sun, 26th Aug 2007 7:52 am
(this is a bit late…)
on malu:
the keyboard is mightier than the pen.
if the pen is mightier than the sword,
then, the keyboard is mightier than the sword.
…btw, i was not referring to the enclosure of a fatty livestock which is also a pen…but, come to think of it…it was a pig’s pen that succumbed to the keyboard…
what about the sword? why bring the word up? the closer i can get to malu’s plight is a pork sword. you may not like to google its meaning but, suffice to say, she probably screwed herself to joblessness.
Karl Garcia on Sun, 26th Aug 2007 8:19 am
Personality politics….
Sa party system ng democrats and republicans ,where the so called issues instead of personalities, then whaat do you call,when it is time to to the last man/woman standing part,is the last man/woman standing the one with issues in mind,or of course personality. I am talking of the parties,not the presedential electoal colleges.
As to the brits parliaments,is it an issue based,parliament or the blame it on blair parliamien.and again Thailand,was it more on issues,than thaksinomics,thaksinwatchamacollits.
So Bencard,you are correct,in short.
But as i said politics is everywhere,no matter how we say to stick to the isues,it will still be personality based.
As to advocacies,it is no longer clear to me what that word is.
Me ipaglalaban ka tapos sa kompromiso at botohan din mapupunta.
That is why Devil’s don’t be offended by my term of lobbying,because what else can it be called.
Since I am now in research,I have discovered another animal meissing in our legislature,We lack a formal research department in both chambers.
Kaya lahat ng laws natin di pa nga tapos ina ammend na.
Yang HSA na yan tama si DJB,panahon pa ni Jamby yan, at ang daming mata pinagdaanan nyan bago naaprubahan,and yet Jamby is supposed to be scientific in her approach,bakit dispalinhago despite all the ammendments,that is because of lack of a formal research department.
It is not not just simply issues,it needs research,not just pure lobying and consulting non implementors.
and again it maybe due to tagakotta’s award called PNI, which is due to personality and PLEEEASE don’t tell me it is unique to the Philippines.At least dito hindi masyado nagsusuntukan ang mga legislators,Sa taiwan,sa and recently sa Bolivia and some untelevised and umpublished incidents ang mga legislators kaunting disagreement lang suntukan na,walang babaebabae.
vic on Sun, 26th Aug 2007 11:48 am
karl, hindi nga nasuntukan, pero nagsaksakan naman sila patalikuran, buti lang yon suntukan tapos kamustahan pag talo or manalo man.
I fully agree with you that Research is lacking in legislature. Evey law proposed should be scrutinze against the provisions of the Constitution in order not to be in conflict with its spirit and later be declared in violation as soon as first challenge. that is the process. again every case that comes to the court, a very good lawyer will challenge the evidence for admisability for its constitutionality and could win a case just for a law so hurriedly enacted and that law becomes so unenforceable and go back for “repair”.
Devilsadvc8 on Sun, 26th Aug 2007 12:33 pm
Bencard, no offense taken. i derived my name here from the movie of the same title, not from epitomizing the exact meaning of the phrase. the movie’s theme is my guiding principle in life. that all of our acts and decisions are a continuing struggle bet good and evil, and that no good act, no matter how supremely divine it is, ever finishes in its being “good.” our struggle with our conscience is a lifelong struggle. perhaps to complement this picture, i have the idea of myself as having a devil inside, always assiduously exerting its influence on me, and my protracted battle with it.
My motto: Decide with reason, act with conviction.
cvj on Sun, 26th Aug 2007 12:42 pm
Bencard, with regards to your assertion that personality politics is not limited to government institutions, you are preaching to the converted. In fact (just like Karl) i would go further. As i told Rego around this time last year, politics is present even in private organizations that are not funded by public contributions but by profit:
I believe you should instead be addressing your message to Rego and the others who have decided to join the ‘Revolution of the Silent’.
As Manolo asked him in response:
The beneficiaries (or would-be beneficiaries) of GK are now about to find out.
Karl Garcia on Sun, 26th Aug 2007 5:44 pm
Sabi na nga ba me isa pang nagbaback read dito si CVJ nga pala yon.
Vic, point taken,di nga nagsusuntukan pero backstabbibg ang dami,sa tingin mo suntukan na lang at least walang plastikan,tingnan ko magsuntukan si Bong Revilla at sino pa bang action star,ay wala na pala.
DJB on Sun, 26th Aug 2007 6:29 pm
cvj,
all your points are granted, except one: that the line between theocracy and Church as NGO is not clear.
You are trying to muddle this line in order to claim that I actually support theocracy or do not know the difference with Church as NGO.
The line is drawn between the letters “N” and “G” in NGO, and it is defined by the Bill of Rights on religious freedom (confusingly by correctly called “Separation of Church and State”) which states that
Section 5. No law shall be made respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof. The free exercise and enjoyment of religious profession and worship, without discrimination or preference, shall forever be allowed. No religious test shall be required for the exercise of civil or political rights.
America is predominantly Christian, yet Islam flourishes there better than Indonesia or Saudi Arabia, where of course it is a capital offense to convert out of islam.
I think there is a big difference between the Catholic Church and Islam.
Islam upholds theocracy explicitly and practices it, uhmm religiously in fundamentalist Islamic States, where the rule for Muslims is different from those in dhimmitude–certainly not the egalite of democracy.
By contrast, if you read Deus Caritas Est by Benedict, you find him quoting almost verbatim, as Church policy, the Bill of Rights of the US constitution.
I assert that for a very long time, the Christian tradition churches have adjusted to, and ACCEPTED the Separation of Church and State and the democratic principles of relgious freedom.
Islam has not!
cvj on Sun, 26th Aug 2007 7:55 pm
DJB, as far as i know, Pope Benedict only speaks for the Roman Catholics and not the entire Christendom. Try explaining the concept of separation of Church and State to the Evangelical Christians, many of whom form the backbone your President W’s base. In the same way, certain strains of Islam like the US-backed Wahhabi rulers of Saudi Arabia as well as the Iranian Shiites in Iran do support and implement a theocratic system of government.
These are, however, not the only Muslim countries. Next door you have Malaysia and Indonesia. In the Middle East, you have Turkey and Lebanon and in Europe you have Albania and Bosnia-Herzegovina. These Muslim countries cannot be considered theocracies so a Muslim-run government doesn’t necessarily mean it will be a theocratic one. To associate Datu Michael Mastura’s statement (made in 1971) above with a call for a theocratic Bangamoro-stan is once again disingeneous and comes close to Benign0-style stereotyping.
I understand and accept that the line is clear between your idea of Church as NGO and a Theocracy. In that instance, the ‘N’ part is unmistakeable. What made it muddled is your support for religious parties to be included in the Party-list system which essentially removes the ‘N’. Once a relgious party is inside the government (via the legislature), it would be natural to expect them to support policies favorable to their religion. Beyond some threshold of support, it will get enough power to set the political agenda at the expense of secularism.
DJB on Sun, 26th Aug 2007 8:11 pm
cvj,
Those democratic Muslim majority countries are precisely the societies being targeted for overthrow by the Global Jihad, which hates the fact that they have adopted democracy. I agree that any democracy can come to be dominated by Muslim majorities in the population.
Regarding the Christian Right, they are a part of
democracy’s diversity, just as the Islamic Right is part of some of those Muslim dominated majorities.
But you have skirted my main point that in general Islam does not accept the Separation of Church and State, while in general Christendom does. Not even the Christian Right would repeal the Bill of Rights even if they are fighting for more rights as Christians. That’s no different than labor unions or political parties, really. So in a sense they are like our party list politics!
Christendom has evolved beyond the stage of claiming “they are the one true Church (and ought to run the State)” in a political and material sense. The Catholic Church still claim that, but in an increasingly muted and clearly demoted way from the time of the Crusades. And only Islamic theocracies will arrest and behead you if you try to leave the religion now in the 21st Century.
Regarding Bangsamorostan, it’s not theoretical.
It’ll happen before we know it. Before people get even halfway as far this blog in understanding what is going on.
DJB on Sun, 26th Aug 2007 8:18 pm
cvj,
What is the difference between a Church and a “religious party” as you call it? Do you think churches can call for political changes?
Do you agree that Churches are equivalent to NGO’s under the Bill of Rights? If not, what exactly is the difference?
cvj on Sun, 26th Aug 2007 8:57 pm
DJB, i haven’t argued that the Muslim majority countries are being threatened by religous extremists (to varying degrees) so don’t make it appear that i’m doing so.
The American Christian Right’s advocacies include the continuing ban on Gay Marriage, re-instituting school prayer, overturning Roe v. Wade, supporting Israel (as a prelude to the Second Coming), promoting abstinence-only education, and downplaying the teaching of Evolution (via promoting ‘Intelligent Design’). All of these have the effect of imposing their sets of beliefs on the rest of America and involve the matter of separation between Church and State even if the evangelicals do not explicitly say so.
What is the point in arguing that Christendom (i.e. the Roman Catholic part) has accepted the principle of separation while Islam has not when you have acknowledged that democracy in countries with Muslim majorities does indeed exist? You do realize that historically, whatever concession Christianity has given to secular forces has been the result of years of struggle from the secularists. Separation of Church and State is not something that has been freely bestowed by the Church. Pope Benedict’s pronouncements are just a belated acknowledgement of reality. As a faith, Muslims are also trying to come to terms with coexisting with a plural and democratic world. Just like the Christians, there is a spectrum of conservatives (e.g. Wahhabis), moderates and liberals. To freeze-frame the entire Islamic faith as a monolithic religion that beheads apostates is as unfair as portraying Catholicism as it was during the days of the Spanish Inquisition.
As for Bangsamorostan, what would help bring it about is continuing polarization and radicalization brought about by a war that you support.
DJB on Sun, 26th Aug 2007 9:02 pm
cvj,
I agree: I am the one saying that those democratic Muslim countries are threatened by Al Qaeda. You are the one saying they are not!
The Christian Right is entitled to its fantasies just as much as the American Left, and is the main reason that I welcome their existence: to define the great democratic middle with finer precision.
But you haven’t answered the question:
Do you believe churches are equivalent to NGO’s?
If not, what exactly is the difference.
rego on Sun, 26th Aug 2007 9:02 pm
CVJ,
And I remember my reply to Manolo, that time too…
The reason why we decided on the scholarship project over other suggested projects is that we believe that education better equip the benfeciaries with a good fighting chance in life. When they encounter such mess then they have they capability to fight or get out for themselves.
On the split , I remember our group encountered a very serious split 6 years ago too. The reason is actually very similar to the ones pointed out by Bencard. But the good thing is that out of that split the the project was born.
So Im saying that any split in whatever groups or organization should not always be perceieved as negative. Some positive thing can also come out from a split. That is the reason why I belive that the opposition is also very important in a democratic country suhc as ours. Check and balance. But what I really dont like about the oppsition is when they fall into teh “pare pareho lang system” . That is when they are actually doing the same “dirty trick” as the administration. E.g. Gloria is into political dynasty and so are the opposition…..that there is really no clear defining line betewen the two.
DJB on Sun, 26th Aug 2007 9:10 pm
cvj,
The main reason Leftists and Liberals insist on characterizing what is going on in Mindanao as “an all out war” is they want to deny the moral obligation we all have for the Law to be enforced.
What is also ignored is that the Basilan PNP are hardly capable of taking on “lawless elements” that are actually capable of wiping out uniformed, heavily armed Philippine marines.
You consider this attempt at law enforcement to be “radicalization and polarization” by war mongers like me.
But the ambuscade and beheadings are just expression of Moro pride in their glorious past right?
rego on Sun, 26th Aug 2007 9:11 pm
I even believe that the peopel who do perfrm teh most affectiev check and balance is are not inteh oppsition but is in the administration. Like Joker, Gordon, Jun Magsaysay. They are actually their going against the the administration policies are teh ones that produces results. Like, Joker in the Venable contract, Gordon on the EO 464 , and Jun Magsaysay on the fertilizer scam…
Karl Garcia on Sun, 26th Aug 2007 9:26 pm
CVJ,
It was Jeffeson who has coined the separation of church and state and first explained to it to the Danburry Baptists.
This is frrom Wiki, just correct me if I am wrong.
“The phrase separation of church and state is generally traced to a letter written by Thomas Jefferson in 1802 to the Danbury Baptists, in which he referred to the First Amendment of the United States Constitution as creating a “wall of separation” between church and state. The phrase was then quoted by the United States Supreme Court first in 1878….”
We all know that that was not he official first ammendment btw.
Going back to wikipedia on separation, so the US historically claimed to be the first one to have practiced separation; let us go the France and Turkey, where the former is a Catholic nation and Turkey a predominantly Islam one.
“Two common examples of the most active type of separation are France and Turkey. The French version of separation is called laïcité. This model of a secularist state protects the religious institutions from some types of state interference, but with public religious expression also to some extent limited. This aims to protect the public power from the influences of religious institutions, especially in public office. Religious views which contain no idea of public responsibility, or which consider religious opinion irrelevant to politics, are less impinged upon by this type of secularization of public discourse. Turkey, whose population is overwhelmingly Muslim, is also considered to have practiced the laïcité school of secularism since 1923. While France comes from a Roman Catholic tradition and Turkey from an Islamic one, secularism in Turkey and secularism in France present many similarities.”
Karl Garcia on Sun, 26th Aug 2007 9:33 pm
Point of digression,
A question for whom it may concern,
Why is it that when I search for ancestral domain,even if the source is american,the Mindanao issue still shows up somehow.
Does the international theater see the Mindanao issue as an an ancestral domain issue?
DJB on Sun, 26th Aug 2007 9:52 pm
I am still agog at the IPRA Law and the Supreme court: Tagalogs and Pampangos are not indigenous peoples of the Philippines–meaning to say they own NO ancestral domains.
The total land area covered by the IPRA ancestral domain absurdity is one third of the total land area, according to Art Panganiban, who wrote the opinion for seven justices voting against IPRA. Reynato Puno wrote the opinion of the prevailing seven justices.
12 million “indigenous peoples” own one third of the philippines as ancestral domains.
But when you look at the History on which Puno bases this all, it’s a laughable mockery being an imitation of most public school elementary texts.
Karl Garcia on Sun, 26th Aug 2007 10:12 pm
I caught the Gordon Interview for a few minutes.
I cvaught the last potrtion before asked about basilan..
That if SriLanka can do it,why can’t we?
There is nothing to conclude but let me try?
Sri Lanka has been war torn,but they can isolate it just to certain areas,so they can promote torism,tayo siguro hindi naman sa lahat as percieved war torn kaya siguro ituloy pa din natin ang laban sa turismo.
Ewan ko as my favorite person Benin0 calls it, it is a mere conjecture. di papasa ke BrianB yon,bakit di pa gawing guess or judgment na mas maikli.
Now on the Garci issue,about how can national interest be the issue,when it is public order which is supposed to be the issue, according to Dick. Another topic in passing is the HSA…
The HSA is stricter because you have to go to the court of appeals,etc.etc.etc.
He doesn’t want war,he wants development….comparing to other nations,again.
If he really wants that to happen, how can the good senator put a stop or initiate a stop, to the millions of pesos wasted to revolutionary taxes,explosions of cellsites. Oh he already answered that, even without hearing my question,with the HSA.
I know I am jumping topics,here but still how can development be achieved with so many constraints?
Now going back to the resarch department proposal for both chambers of the house.
Atty Lacierda,do we have enough constitutional lawyers around,so we could have laws crafted,with out its constitutionality being questioned afterwards?
IMO,if such a research department is to be found feasible (if anyone dares to initiate it),will we have enough cionstitutional lawyers scrutinize each proposal? Just asking.
Or why not make every proposal open to the public. online legislation,who knows?
I really should think and dream that one day our reps will we answerable to its constituents.
Speaking of officials answerable to its voters.
Sa ngayon matalo ka lang sa boxing wala na ang panagko ni GOV na ipasemento ang kalye…what can I say?
Is it enough to say that we get what we ask for when electing officials.
BTW, Jaxius,I never heard from you since our last “conversation”,did I bore you?
DJB on Sun, 26th Aug 2007 10:14 pm
If IPRA were implemented in the United States, it would mean giving back most of the Western Time Zone to who ever are descendants of the native American indians “by self-ascription or ascription by others.”
Except that here in the Philippines, sometime next month, GMA and the Peace Processors will give the Maguindanao Warlords (Zubiri’s Benefactors), along with Eid kabbalu Al hadj murad and the rest of the milf capi di tutti capos the equivalent just of California right in the middle of the Pulangi River Basin!
That’s what I refer to as Bangsamorostan. Not some far in the future thingy. I bet the first consular office to open will be from South Waziristan.
Rom on Sun, 26th Aug 2007 11:38 pm
KG:any law can be questioned on constitutional grounds if someone hates it enough, or has enough vested interests affected by the new law to justify the expense of taking the constitutional challenge to the SC. And the challenge doesn’t even have to be sound. All a lawyer has to do is to come up with a colorable excuse to call the law unconstitutional and he can tie up implementation long enough to sap the law of whatever vitality it might have had. No research department can help that. The solution, I think, is not to change the way laws are made or to call for more lawyers (gack!), but to improve the way constitutional challenges are resolved. Make it swifter, maybe.
On a similar note, online legislation does not address the constitutionality issue, but the desirability issue. Opening up law making to the public supposedly aims to ensure that laws people agree with are formulated. But that is a weak and populist stance that will cause more problems that it can solve.
Bencard on Mon, 27th Aug 2007 12:25 am
“All a lawyer has to do is to come up with colorable excuse to call the law unconstitutional and he can tie up implementation long enough to sap the law of whatever vitality it might have had”. Rom.
so nicely written but so wrong. in the first place, a law can only be challenged by a real party affected by the law in question in connection with a real controversy with another party. a lawyer cannot just conjure up an issue out of nowhere and bring it before the sc.
in the second place, the law is VALID, until it is pronounced invalid by the sc. so there can be no delay in its implementation to “sap whatever vitality” it has. it has to be obeyed and complied with until its nullity is declared.
cvj on Mon, 27th Aug 2007 12:32 am
DJB, i don’t know how you can keep accusing me of denying that Al Qaeda/Jemaah Islamiyah is a problem when i just said above (at August 25th, 2007, t 1:00 am) that JI/AQ must be expelled (together with the American/Australian soldiers). In an earlier thread, i also responded to you (in a comment made at August 21st, 2007, 11:30 pm in Manolo’s ‘Shake, Rattle and Roll’ thread) that “there are those on the opposing side (me included) who likewise recognize that the terrorist threat is real. What you and i disagree on is the means to address the threat.”
I haven’t really given it much thought but i find nothing wrong in your ‘Church as NGO’ thesis. (If you explain where this is leading to, maybe i eventually will.) As i said above, what i find inconsistent is holding this view of Church outside government (aka NGO) side by side with Church inside government via party list representation which enters a grey area as far as Church-State separation is concerned.
As for your remarks at August 26, 2007 9:10pm, you are inventing a strawman again.
Rego, your observation on how political divisions are not necessarily a bad thing (as in the case of your group) is a good one and i hope that Bencard would take note of that before using what happened to GK to bash the political dynamics within Philippine Society. I hope the GK situation works out for the best as it did for your group.
Betol on Mon, 27th Aug 2007 12:38 am
Comments censored. Too Truthful.
vic on Mon, 27th Aug 2007 1:03 am
Rom, one other way to minimize enacted law being declared unconstitutional by any level of courts where it is first challenged (and it is no longer enforceable unless reversed by the higher court on appeal)is for the legislature, when in doubt may ask the opinion of the SC as to the constitutionality by submitting a formal questionnaire for the SC opinion. It is usually reserved for some law that was referred back to the legislature for its provisions which were declared unconstitutional, but not the whole.
In reality court challenges have tied most of our cases here both in criminal and civil courts due to the “newness” of our Charter of Rights and Freedoms and the Chief Justice has just spoken on that issue during the latest meeting of the Country’s Lawyers. But eventually, they’ll find a way of streamlining the process as the courts, the parliament and the lawyers are all working on the solutions Right Now…
BrianB on Mon, 27th Aug 2007 1:50 am
PRC NUrsing exam results 2007. Philippine nursing exam.
Bencard on Mon, 27th Aug 2007 2:57 am
cvj, before lecturing me on the matter of “bashing” politics in organizations, please read again and analyze the context of my comment. i did not say that the problem is “necessarily” a bad thing. there are definitely exceptions and rego’s group is apparently one of them. why do i always have to spell out to you the import of what i write?
vic, there you go again, “teaching” us on canadian law and practices. in the philippines, the sc has the sole jurisdiction to pass upon the validity or unconstitutionality of a statute or executive order. it is not an advisory body, and as i explained in my preceding post, it can only inquire into a law’s validity in an actual controversy properly brought before it by contending parties.
vic on Mon, 27th Aug 2007 3:08 am
then one question bencard, what happened if the trial court declare an accused not guilty because of the defect of the law which he was accused of and the prosecutor decide not to appeal the ruling? that law as far as I know, which ever country now becomes unenforceable and therefor no longer valid. just about every law in any country has the same purpose and legal origin mostly that of the British Common Law and their not much difference, only the enforcement in a country which institutions are weak and so is the case in the Philippines.
not lecturing anyone here on anything and just like you I don’t present myself to be expert on anything and my posting are my observation as a long time resident here as maybe compared to other countries. if it is good here it could also be good somewhere, ain’t that reasonable?
cvj on Mon, 27th Aug 2007 3:27 am
Bencard, i think you’re the one who has to reread your own posts. Remember “just another example of the impossibility of ‘unity’ in any organization – from the smallest social club to a nation.“? What about “…not for the cause but for applause“? If you intended to convey the message that politics is not necessarily a bad thing, then you managed to hide it well.
DJB on Mon, 27th Aug 2007 3:30 am
cvj,
thanks, you are a true intellectual. Expel BOTH al qaeda/ji and Austalia/America.
VERY intellectual!
Bencard on Mon, 27th Aug 2007 3:48 am
how in the world you can interpret those two quotes as saying “politics is a bad thing”, really escapes me. if, indeed, politics makes unity impossible, how can it be bad if as rego’s group exemplified, it’s split eventually redound to the benefit of many, if not all. but did it negate my premise that unity is not possible as long as there is politics involved? as usual, your logic doesn’t compute. again, if the motivation is applause, not the cause, does a split (politics) becomes “necessarily a bad thing”? again, as rego’s group shows, motivation of its movers and shakers in splitting is not “necessarily a bad thing”. btw, suit yourself -however you want to construe my comments, it’s your problem, not mine.
cvj on Mon, 27th Aug 2007 4:08 am
DJB, because of American presence, we Filipinos have been caught in the geopolitical crossfire once too often in our history. As to your calling me an ‘intellectual’, i’m looking forward to your explanation of what that’s supposed to mean.
cvj on Mon, 27th Aug 2007 4:20 am
Bencard, if i follow your line of reasoning above (at 3:48am), does that mean that you don’t consider it necessarily a bad thing when you said that “the rest of the people are usually the pawns and unwitting tool of the struggle for power, but seldom, if ever, the beneficiary of it.” (at August 26th, 2007, 1:53 am)?
Bencard on Mon, 27th Aug 2007 5:33 am
one more time, cvj, and that’s it for this one! the two qualifying words in the statement you quoted that are relevant to your question are USUALLY and SELDOM – meaning it is not all-inclusive. do they imply “necessarily a bad thing” in your way of thinking? why do i feel that this exchange is becoming a “childish” exercise again?
Karl Garcia on Mon, 27th Aug 2007 7:18 am
Rom,Bencard and Vic.
Thank you very much,all points taken. Me nalimutan ba ako na tao?
Re:research in a movie I just saw….
I have seen how this works on Evan almighty,maybe research is just for the movies!
Again if if it falls down to the SC as in NAIA2 and the likes,then wala tayong magagawa kundi pabayaan na ganito na lang.
sa bagay mukhang tama naman sa long run ang desisyon ng SC,sa tingin lang natin obstructionists sa economics.
My point is how can we make laws na kahit minadali ay still well researched. Nothing wrong in dreanming.It is still a numbers game inside the houses and one strong lobby against it outside to prompt it to go to the SC…
So ganito na lang tayo,sa ngayon,at least. And I won’t pull down the Philippines while saying that.
lawmaking:bills for sale: kelan ba yon na may paehong parehong bill,kay senator blank at kay senator Loi yung isa. Does that mean that they were approached by one group,seeking luck on who files it first. So we are still ruled by the strong lobby.
Bale wala nga ang research.
Karl Garcia on Mon, 27th Aug 2007 7:36 am
maybe I am tring to focus on the wrong target for research, Constitutionality might not be the issue. Maybe those laws na walang pumapansin,no oppositors,tapos after ilan years malalaman ng marami na walang kwenta pala.
madami tayo nyan,after a few press releases,and a few interviews tunggkol sa “brainchild nila” na binili naman natin pero wala palang kwenta,let us say constitutionality is not the issue,aside from renaming streets, I am sure madami pa dyan mga batas na wala na ngang feasibility study, wala pang budget,wala pang kwenta at higit sa lahat wala pa tayong pakialam.
Karl Garcia on Mon, 27th Aug 2007 7:42 am
Bencard,
please allow me to give an opinion on your exchanges with your usual suspects…
Remember your observation about the Devil’s advocate,that is my same observation and speculation.
Granting that it may seem childish to you,but aren’t you used to discussions in your profession.
Don’t worry, I wont turn this into a childish exercise.
Karl Garcia on Mon, 27th Aug 2007 7:54 am
National heroes day today!
cvj on Mon, 27th Aug 2007 8:22 am
Bencard, the complete qualifier you used was ’seldom, if ever‘. I don’t know how you can interpret what you said about disunity as being other than a bad thing after you concluded with the phrase “…powerful engine of disunity leading to self-destruction“, or is ’self-destruction’ not necessarily a bad thing?
Bencard on Mon, 27th Aug 2007 9:18 am
KG, i agree with you that research would help our lawmakers immensely in writing high quality legislation that could withstand the test of court challenges and time.
cvj, don’t distort my statement by deliberately omitting key words from it. my exact sentence was “pride and envy are a powerful engine of disunity leading to self-destruction.” this is entirely different from your own interpretation that “politics is necessarily a bad thing”, to which i take exception.
you know what man? i really can’t believe that a person like you, who otherwise writes decently and can quote famous foreign authors, can be so cheap as to dissect my comment piece by piece in search of something to support your attempt to distort its whole context. btw, i guess i should be accustomed to it by now. you’ve been doing that ever since i joined this blog. (lol).
cvj on Mon, 27th Aug 2007 10:03 am
Bencard, since you’ve criticized my dissection, let me try to use a more holistic approach to present the entire context. Your first comment was of the form:
GK -> example of personality politics (in any organization)
personality politics -> leads to disunity
disunity -> leads to self destruction
I tried to counter that GK’s divisions were reported to be on matters on substance but you would have none of it. In your second comment, you said:
scratch the surface (of ‘matters of substance’) -> personality politics
After that, it’s a straightforward step to branch back to the ‘personality politics…self-destruction’ chain in the first comment.
Bencard on Mon, 27th Aug 2007 10:27 am
cvj, you again conveniently omitted in your “chain” pride and envy (that result in a type of personality politics) that cause disunity which, in turn, leads to self destruction. still has nothing to do with your necessarily- a-bad-thing interpretation.
Karl Garcia on Mon, 27th Aug 2007 10:56 am
“DJB, i think you got it half-right. If the Filipino Christians (nominal or otherwise) and Muslims got together to expel both JI/AQ and the American/Australian soldiers, then we’d be spared this ‘Caliphate vs. Empire’ showdown.”
No sides taken here cvj, but how on earth can this happen?
That is why even if just an opinion,I disagree with the notion of leave peace and order to the police and the police alone,ni ang mga sundalo nga hindi kaya,police pa.
JI/AQ is a cat and mouse game ,how can you expel want you can not catch.
US and Aussies, expel them? make them violate any form of treaty first and we can ask and request? but to expel them; it so 1992,when we got them out of Clark and Subic. but what is the long run result,if I may ask? More development still concentrated on Southern Tagalog,particularly Calabar;and a slow but unsure development from the Central to the Northern Luzon.Ok maybe that has nithing to do with throwing the Yanks out.
So,I ask again, How on earth could that be possible?
Oh,I forgot,the fear factor!
Karl Garcia on Mon, 27th Aug 2007 11:03 am
Another question,was it the senate who threw out The Americans or Mt. Pinatubo?
Karl Garcia on Mon, 27th Aug 2007 11:22 am
“But when you look at the History on which Puno bases this all, it’s a laughable mockery being an imitation of most public school elementary texts”
see, even the Chief Justice needs a research team.
Rom on Mon, 27th Aug 2007 11:36 am
bencard:any point of contention with the law can be turned into a colorable controversy as to merit the prolonged attention of the SC, bencard. and it’s a lawyer who does that, in representation of the party-in-interest. any lawyer, in fact, can do that, in representation of anyone who claims to be a taxpayer who will be affected by the injudicious spending of public funds in connection with the implementation of an unconstitutional statute.
It is also true that the law is VALID, until it is pronounced invalid by the SC. But then again, as with the e-vat law, implementation can be suspended by a TRO can it not? And a TRO issued by the SC is of unlimited duration. So therefore, if the lawyer is adroit enough, he can keep that TRO from being lifted for a long long time.
Longer, in fact, than it takes for me to say, thanks for the compliment, but i wasn’t wrong.
Karl Garcia on Mon, 27th Aug 2007 11:36 am
With all this talk of war,ancestral domains,politics,legal advocacies.
I think the two most important bilsl to be passed are the cheaper medicines bill and the Epira law.
Cheaper medicines to prove to the transnationals who is boss around here.(with out expeling them)We need it of course, ang daming mahiihirap na di man lang makabili ng gamot til their last breath.
The Epira law,because of the power rates per kwh is one the highest in the region, if not the world.
cvj on Mon, 27th Aug 2007 12:13 pm
Bencard, ‘pride and envy’ is already embodied as an attribute of ‘personality politics’, but you’re right, i could have written…
personality politics(pride and envy)
…for completeness, but it doesn’t really change much.
Remembering what MB once said, your skill in denying the obvious would come in handy in a crowded elevator.
Karl, i also don’t agree that we should leave peace and order to the police alone. We use our military but only our military, suitably led and equipped. What we don’t want to happen is to get entangled in someone else’s war. Remember the logic of the Americans…’we fight them (i.e. Islamic terrorists) over there so we don’t have to fight them over here‘? Guess where over there is.
On the U.S. Bases, it was Mt. Pinatubo that kicked them out of Clark while it was the Senate that kicked them out of Subic. Another historical instance of an Act of God and an Act of Man working together remniniscent of the defeat of the Spanish Armada in the hands of the violent weather and the English Navy, as well as the defeat of the Mongols courtesy of the ‘Divine Wind’ and the Japanese Samurai.
Karl Garcia on Mon, 27th Aug 2007 12:16 pm
Benign0 when he was just starting his website(A flashback)
”
benign0 :
Hi MLQ3,
I’ve set up a Wiki facility to see if I can get the best minds in the blogosphere to collaborate on a single “Solutions Manifesto†that addresses fundamental issues that afflict Philippine society.
Wiki technology is an open source application that is Web-based and allows anyone who logs on (even anonymously) to edit content directly. The application manages version and provides the Administrator some ability to control access and content; but all-in-all, it is open for all and the resulting content will merely reflect the quality of the contributions.
Check it out here:
http://www.seedwiki.com/wiki/getrealphilippines_solutions/
If you click “edit page†on the left sidebar, you will be taken to a page editor facility that provides a WYSiWYG (what-you-see-is-what-you-get) environment to edit and save that page. You can even add pages if you want.
Hope to see you there!
Cheers,
benign0
April 24th, 2006 at 10:10 am “
Karl Garcia on Mon, 27th Aug 2007 12:19 pm
Thanks, CVJ!
cvj on Mon, 27th Aug 2007 1:09 pm
Karl, you’re welcome. On your question on what the removal of the US Bases accomplished after all these years, i’d say that it did wonders to how we view ourselves as an independent nation. I was for a ‘gradual phaseout’ and against abrogation, but eventually i realized how it was to be really independent. It does feel different (in a good way).
This, i believe, will also have had an effect on those who grew up without the Bases who have a different mindset from the generation who grew up in the 50’s and 60’s who think America is No. 1. One of the commenters over at Ellen’s (now in her 60’s) also noticed this change in our youth.
The VFA and the coming of the new US bases in Mindanao threatens all that.
DJB on Mon, 27th Aug 2007 2:48 pm
PCIJ: The American Bases are coming! The American Bases are coming!
(Never mind that it would require a Constitutional Amendment to do that, and the US Govt Accounting Office has most certainly accounted for every penny spent on the claimed health facilities, port improvements, road building, school raising, and other legitimate HELP they are giving the Philippines.)
But you see, there are SOME people who really hate the fact that the Abu Sayyaf terrorists have upstaged the Left in the Order of Battle, and are now reaching out for their favorite grievance.
They want a share of Jovito Salonga’s glory, and that of the 1991 senate, that did with one vote what Joma and his brigands had been trying to do with “protracted struggle.”
the sorry thing about the heroism of that senate was that the americans were on their way out anyway because of global demobilization after the general collapse of commumism.
the people who are loudly saying the US is building a secret base on Mindanao are reallty pitiable.
To them applies this saying:
There is no more grievous emotional and psychological loss, than that of a favorite excuse for one’s failures, in terms of the actions of another!
They really need Sheila Coronel back, because know what, when you read the PCIJ post on this, it’s hollow and baseless. The only investigation they did is on Google, where they cherry picked the right sounding phrases from a website.
They’ve really come down in professionalism over there since she left for Columbia University.
DJB on Mon, 27th Aug 2007 2:54 pm
Karl,
The cheaper medicines bill is a self-fulfilling prophecy, and then some. That’s exactly how Panama (?) recently killed dozens of its citizens importing poison from China and the govt putting it in cough medicine.
Wait till we have several thousand viajeras shuttling to and from Manila and Mumbai bringing back luggages full of cheap Norvasc, and god know what else. (Remember, there is a whole world of pharmacy over there, and once you open the Pandora’s box of filipino importers,whose main expertise is in DVD piracy and the ripping off of intellectual property rights of others,
then you’ll see what the cheaper medicines bill really means!
DJB on Mon, 27th Aug 2007 3:00 pm
We should send Fr. Bossi, PIME, and the Asses of Major Religious Superiors, the BILL for this all-out war.
Karl Garcia on Mon, 27th Aug 2007 3:10 pm
CVJ,
Although we are almost at the same age bracket.I see your point on those who grew without the bases,and to the patronizing anything stateside of our generation has diminished (now they are made in China)btw before mattel moved to china,they were made here in the Pinas.
Nililigaw ko na naman ang usapan.
But what if the peacemakers suggest to give them a huge chunk of mindanao and many migrants there, object.Whatnow?
Me personally I have lots of relatives there from first cousins to relatives through affinities(mother side)
efinitely ayoko din magkagyera sa Mindanao,but expel them by disregarding VFA,bases. Do you really think it would make matter worse.
What if it is not here but in nearby Indonesia,or China.or in Sinagpore di ba sabit pa din tayo?
Is it not like, OK clean all the garbage but never setup a dump or landfill in my town.
Not in my backyard,in otherwords.
If my analogy of cleaning up garbage vs as you call it expeling AQ/JI and US and Australia is way of the mark; I am waiting for your reply.
Karl Garcia on Mon, 27th Aug 2007 3:16 pm
DJB,
call it a rant from an unhealthy consumer.
Thank you for waking me up there bout the cheaper meds.
DJB on Mon, 27th Aug 2007 3:18 pm
Seeing as how lots of people think it is okay for the NPA, MILF, MNLF and ASG to bear arms and invite their friends from JI and AQ over to their coming Muslim Juridical Entity, saying these are trying to solve the root causes of our unhappiness, I don’t see why Filipinos ought not invite the Americans back in here through a Constitutional Amendment.
The recent SWS survey on world public opinion indicates such an amendment would get overwhelming support from the Pinoys.
I think, like Cuba once did with Guantanamo, we ought to give Basilan to the US. Surely they are just a “indigenous” to Mindanao as the Waziris and Indo-Malayan terrorists crawling all over it now. Just look at all the white mestizos that have so improved their race by the action of biodiversity.
jaxius on Mon, 27th Aug 2007 3:26 pm
Karl,
No, just got tied up with something. I’m trying to organize my thoughts about SB 1284 (fixed term for CSAFP). will probably blog it.
Karl Garcia on Mon, 27th Aug 2007 3:32 pm
Jaxius,
will be looking forward to that blog.
karl
Karl Garcia on Mon, 27th Aug 2007 3:48 pm
DJB,
Got your point!
CVJ,per DJB,no bases in Mindanao,so no US and Aussies to expel,not now ,not in the near future.
ronin on Mon, 27th Aug 2007 4:02 pm
I’ve been working here in Thailand for more than a year now. Though the recently-approved Charter wasn’t to everyone’s liking, it must be understood that it is one of the junta’s rear-guard action as it attempts to ‘bring back’ democracy to Thailand. Simply put, the generals can’t afford not to protect their backs once they turn over state power. As my colleagues here observe, Thaksin is unlike other deposed Thai PMs in the sense that he’s rich enough to buy his way back to power someday and dish out some payback to Gen. Sonthi and his boys.
DJB on Mon, 27th Aug 2007 4:23 pm
1987 Constitution:
“Section 25. After the expiration in 1991 of the Agreement between the Republic of the Philippines and the United States of America concerning military bases, foreign military bases, troops, or facilities shall not be allowed in the Philippines except under a treaty duly concurred in by the Senate and, when the Congress so requires, ratified by a majority of the votes cast by the people in a national referendum held for that purpose, and recognized as a treaty by the other contracting State.”
PCIJ has really lost its mind. How, pray tell, can the US establish a base on Mindanao?
Do we really need “investigative journalism” like theirs when their loopy claims are rebutted just by reading the Constitution.
this is not investigative journalism but yellow journalism, which only proves even our Leftists suffer from colonial mentality! They learned their anti Americanism from other Americans. hehehe!
cvj on Mon, 27th Aug 2007 4:36 pm
Karl, the US bases will only be a magnet for attacks from foreign jihadists. Our neighbors, could of course, choose to host them at their peril.
On DJB’s denial, try googling ‘US Bases Mindanao’. I ask you, when did our Constitution act as a deterrent to US plans? When the bases were still here after the ratification of the 1986 Constitution, do you think the Americans stopped hosting nuclear weapons in Clark and Subic because of our nuclear-free provision? As i said sometime back, the Americans will try get their bases, if not from the blessings of the Philippine government, from the new ‘Muslim Juridical entity’. It’s mainly there for China.
Thanks DJB, i’m going to frame this paragraph for posterity right beside your ‘little brown american’ and ‘aristocrat’ remarks.
DJB on Mon, 27th Aug 2007 4:41 pm
Please note that nowhere in the Constitution does it say only American combat troops are forbidden from Philippine soil.
Yet where have we ever heard Leftists and Liberals decrying the presence of Bali bombers, JI operatives, and other defintitely armed foreign combatants in Mindanao?
As for collectors and framers of my earnest remarks, I think it is good to have worthwhile hobbies that hopefully last a lifetime.
BrianB on Mon, 27th Aug 2007 4:44 pm
“how in the world you can interpret those two quotes as saying “politics is a bad thingâ€, really escapes me. if, indeed, politics makes unity impossible, how can it be bad if as rego’s group exemplified, it’s split eventually redound to the benefit of many, if not all.”
Guys, politics is actually one step up the ladder from a warrior-like existence. Politics makes our lives less dangerous, it’s the essence of civilization. The problem is that most of our population see politics as entertainment and not a serious matter. It probably help to think of your congressman or president as your wife or husband with his own agenda in life, etc.
Karl Garcia on Mon, 27th Aug 2007 5:00 pm
Brian B for a guy who hates quotable quotes, you surely give a good quote of your own.
DJB on Mon, 27th Aug 2007 5:06 pm
brianb,
you have to say democratic politics, because from my reading of Genesis, politics antedated war and warriors.
vic on Mon, 27th Aug 2007 5:34 pm
The process of party leadership election by the Grand National Party of South Korea is something to be admired, for including the General Public into the process, thereby testing the water for the personal acceptance of its leader by the general public. In such country where multi parties contest for the government, the general public pulse should be considered into the process for party leadership instead of just exclusive of the party membership which selection may be rejected by those that are not voting strictly for the Party.
But every Party can also formulates its own process and rules of leadership selection. Some would just do a certain (example 10% of representatives of members) percentage for every district for direct voting in a convention with the process of elimination until one candidate obtain the majority or on line voting and mail in by all members. For a very young democracy, South Korea process is so mature and deserves a very good look from those aspiring to become one….
cvj on Mon, 27th Aug 2007 5:39 pm
Since i seem to be the designated ‘leftist/liberal’ in this discussion, i might as well clarify my stand. FWIW, i decry the presence of Bali bombers, JI operatives, and other defintitely armed foreign combatants in Mindanao. So there. (Of course, i can’t speak for anyone else but myself.)
DJB, as an avid collector of your earnest remarks, as your President W. would say, bring ‘em on!
DJB on Mon, 27th Aug 2007 7:42 pm
cvj,
it sounds like an insincere cry, with “so there” as the punctuation mark. but it’s progress and it makes me happy.
Question: what do you think they are doing in Mindanao?
Devilsadvc8 on Mon, 27th Aug 2007 9:10 pm
they’re breeding seeds of hate of course! what else?
that’s why we’re having a more and more barbaric muslim insurgency nowadays. they’ve been infected by the foreign jihadists. when before all they’ve dreamed of was an independent Bangsamoro land, now they want all unbelievers dead.
all this religious fervor would get to a head in the near future. it’s world war 3 and its Jews, Christians, and Muslims waging the war. there’ll be no delineation of nationalities here. you’ll be safe if you’re on land dominated by you’re own religion. otherwise, better leave for one that is.
I forgot the secularists. Hope they win the war and end this senseless beating over whose God is better. We all have the same God, IMO. He just revealed himself in different names, for the different religions.
cvj on Mon, 27th Aug 2007 9:11 pm
DJB, not sure if i would call it ‘progress’ since that’s been my stand ever since, but i’m glad to have made you happy nonetheless. I think JI/AQ are there to recruit disaffected Muslims to their cause. With the USA’s help, there’s plenty to be discontented about.
cvj on Mon, 27th Aug 2007 9:18 pm
Devils, as the PLO’s Yasser Arafat was supposed to have said, “You’re basically killing each other to see who’s got the better imaginary friend.“. The war camps of both sides are basically feeding each other. I think the real struggle is between the pacifists/secularists and jihadists (of both camps).
Devilsadvc8 on Mon, 27th Aug 2007 10:06 pm
and just so everyone understands where I’m coming from (re this issue), I’m a baptized Roman Catholic who’s gone from a complete atheist, to a fervent secularist, to a devout believer in a universal God. Yes, a monotheistic God who is Jehovah, Allah, Christ, and all the Gods in human history as being just one God. And I dream of a day when all religions are ground to dust, and people are left to their own devices, to worship in their own way, without having priests, imams, or whomever hijacking the divine rights to supplication, and claiming exclusive “wisdom” to judge what God is saying to us. haven’t Christ said that the kingdom of God is in man’s hearts, not in buildings or temples?
Then look into your hearts, and there you will see God. Talk to Him, and perhaps you’d be enlightened that religious organizations are not needed to be a “believer.”
Perhaps someone should found a new religion. Not secularism. Lets call this religion, Tolerance.
Devilsadvc8 on Mon, 27th Aug 2007 10:08 pm
oh i forgot. i was an agnostic for a time, too.
Devilsadvc8 on Mon, 27th Aug 2007 10:11 pm
this would be good reading:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secularism
vic on Mon, 27th Aug 2007 10:27 pm
Solutions bebore the problem: Islam and other Religions are getting bigger as the population of our Country gets bigger and their main complaint at the moment is their exlusion for 100% public funding for their religious based secondary education which is extended to the Catholic Schools. Their only qualify for tax credit which is only part of the whole school fees. That will be one of the issues this October election and the contending party which is alternating power with the current government is promising that all religious based secondary schools will be publicly funded when it wins the government as long as they adapt the curriculum mandated by the ministry of education to standardized the whole system. And most religious based schools seem to agree including the muslims, the jews, the budhist and the protestants, etc. So remains the only problem is Between the Separatists and the Federalists and the fight is now in the front, no more underground…
Pilipinoparin on Mon, 27th Aug 2007 11:10 pm
“Just look at all the white mestizos that have so improved their race by the action of biodiversity”. – DJB – August 27th, 2007 at 3:18 pm
Are you implying that the whites, the mestizos belong to a superior race? Baka bumangon si Rizal at Mabini sa kanilang libingan niyan.
Devilsadvc8 on Mon, 27th Aug 2007 11:14 pm
well, that basically qualifies me as a humanist, though one who allows, that in cases where science and technology are unable to provide an explanation, God must suffice as an answer. yes, I’m a humanist who believes in a God, though unproven scientifically or conclusively, my experiences and general reasoning would prove otherwise. and my God is an unbiased, universal God, whose people is the entire human race, and who is not selective based on religious affiliations.
I guess, most of all, I am pro-choice. An advocate in the freedom to choose, with that freedom contingent only on the basis that it be exercised using reasoned thought, and without impeding on the basic human rights of others as agreed upon universally.
Anyway, my belief of choice is that it is non-existent. And that all choices border on being illusory, with the minimum that we have unable to change past or future, only concerned with the present.
But we have to allow that choice to matter, don’t we? No matter how negligible that choice may be.
manuelbuencamino on Mon, 27th Aug 2007 11:51 pm
I nominate DJB president of revived movement to make the Philippines a 52nd state and commander in chief of armed forces against strawmen
BrianB on Mon, 27th Aug 2007 11:57 pm
“I nominate DJB president of revived movement to make the Philippines a 52nd state and commander in chief of armed forces against strawmen”
He should forget about it. American’s won’t even make Puerto Rico a state, not even Guam. Karl, If I knew my comment is going to be a quotable quote I’d pass it through Microsoft Word first.
BrianB on Mon, 27th Aug 2007 11:59 pm
“you have to say democratic politics, because from my reading of Genesis, politics antedated war and warriors.”
DJB, you must have been reading Milton’s Paradise Lost and not the Book of Genesis from the Bible.
Bencard on Tue, 28th Aug 2007 1:17 am
brianb, if i remember my book of genesis, cain killed his brother abel because of pride-and envy-based politics. i think djb is right on this one, i.e. that “politics antedated war and warriors (if you believe in the old testament, that is).
rom: those were points well-taken, except that a taxpayer can only have standing as such in a tax-oriented case where he/she has an actual interest, not in any other case where he/she has no real cause of action. as to tro, as its name implies, it is merely temporary and purely discretionary with the court (i.e. as when irreparable harm would result on the petitioner if the law was implemented with respect to him.) this temporary stay only benefits the petitioner in connection with the case actually before the court, and not the entire population.
in cases, involving tro’s, the court is charged with the duty to adjudicate the issues expeditiously, lest the opposing party him/herself suffers irreparable damage. theoretically, it cannot be abused or manipulated by an enterprising lawyer no matter how deep the pockets of his clients are. therefore, i don’t see how a tro can be capriciously prolonged to indefinitely delay either the general or specific implementation of a law or executive order.
cvj, if the best you can do is invoke buencamino’s opinion as to my skill in pointing out fallacious arguments, or lack thereof, then you really are desperate para lang makalusot.(lol).
BrianB on Tue, 28th Aug 2007 1:29 am
“brianb, if i remember my book of genesis, cain killed his brother abel because of pride-and envy-based politics. i think djb is right on this one, i.e. that “politics antedated war and warriors (if you believe in the old testament, that is).”
Bencard, look at the lower animals. Big and strong almost always means you get to lead the pack. In politics, you can be short, bald, fat, you can even be stupid.
BrianB on Tue, 28th Aug 2007 1:30 am
That’s why I don’t necessarily look down on mangmang politicians, like Erap. I know in my heart, politics is better than pure Darwinism.
Devilsadvc8 on Tue, 28th Aug 2007 1:54 am
haven’t i said it before? politics is everything. even the war of heaven and hell.
or perhaps you think Lucifer was just having a little tantrum?
BrianB on Tue, 28th Aug 2007 2:03 am
“or perhaps you think Lucifer was just having a little tantrum?”
Don’t be crazy. If you’re agnostic, then be agnostic but don’t be a heretic. There’s no politics in heaven. That’s “Paradise Lost” wherein politics existed in heaven, at least in Satan’s point of view.
Bencard on Tue, 28th Aug 2007 2:19 am
brianb, politics as entertainment is ok. but when people get killed because of it, it is not at all funny. even “stupid” politicians can be violent and, therefore, dangerous.
DJB on Tue, 28th Aug 2007 2:49 am
pilipinoparin: biodiversity improves all races, that is why I used an ambiguous pronoun in the phrase.
Brianb: why do you say politics is better than pure Darwinism (survival of the fittest by natural selection)? You can say anything you want about politics, but let’s get our science straight, okay, and not spread ignorance, because short, fat, bald, nonviolent species often survive under pure Darwinism because they are short, fat, bald, and nonviolent. Maybe you misunderstand the meaning of “pure Darwinism”? And even ideas, as memes, are possibly governed by Darwinism, but the scientific jury is still out on the notion. Under pure Darwinism, the notion of the fittest is not the same as in human politics.
MB: you seem to be having a mental block nowadays. Here and on my blog you are out of ammo all the time, firing dud ad hominem with a frustrated whine.
BrianB on Tue, 28th Aug 2007 3:23 am
“short, fat, bald, nonviolent species often survive under pure Darwinism because they are short, fat, bald, and nonviolent.”
Your talking about something else, not Darwinism. A later development from Darwin’s theory. I think it’s called the “founder” theory. It’s like this: four guys are walking down the road. Three are fit and strong and one is short and fat. Three got struck by lightning and are dead. The fat guy survives, and he impregnates all the women.
You’re only confusing yourself by mixing up all these diverse theories: Dawkins, Darwin, biodiversity. And there is no such thing as scientific jury on memes. Heh, memes is a concept like postmodernism. Does it really exist. Maybe they are too obvious to even warrant names.
And short, fat, bald and stupid men don’t survive on Darwinism. They survive on pity, on the underestimation of other men, on the quirks of women. Last but not the least, because they pose no obvious threat to powerful men they survive… Politics.
BrianB on Tue, 28th Aug 2007 3:34 am
Bencard,
what I was trying to say about politics, is that people only see it at a distance and compare politicians to the actors and actresses on TV. If they think of them as husbands, wives, neighbors, extended relatives, like Europeans do they will realize how irritating, destructive and dangerous these people are. The threat is immediate and so are the countermeasures, at least these countermeasures can be effected with immediacy, and not as most Filipinos imagine, in some abstract future time. That’s what I mean when I wrote that they should look at politicians the way they look at their wives and husbands.
Imagine yourself simply wishing that your wife or husband be faithful to you at all times. In these cases, people react quickly and implement countermeasures. I don’t have to specify, do I?
Filipinos deal with politicians the way they deal with soap opera characters: they feel for them, hate the bad guys, root for the good guys, but that’s all. They do not interact. They are passive. They do not go in there and influence the outcomes of events.
DJB on Tue, 28th Aug 2007 3:37 am
Guyz and Galz, just a lil time out. First let me apologize to any one here who’s feelings I may have hurt by some of the things I say, and how I say it.
but i catch myself enjoying the tit for tat too much. Like shooting fish in a barrel I’d like to say, but that would only be more of the same.
I know some of you are abroad, perhaps even in America, where despite 9/11, the illusion of distance and relative safety has perhaps taken over again. I can understand why, for even here in Manila, so close to the danger, somnambulism is rampant too.
Yet there is more to this than meets the eye, and years from now, I do believe that 2007 will be seen as a turning point in history.
I think it is incumbent on us to decide where we really stand on the most fundamental of values and beliefs, before the major terrorist attacks on the Philippines begin, and those values and beliefs are tested in blood and fire. I do not believe that these attacks can now be stopped. I hate for that to be what it will take to awaken the sleepers. And until they do, prevention is not yet even an option or a possibility.
In that soon-to-be, even the most acrimonious here will see how small and futile our personal vanities be.
DJB on Tue, 28th Aug 2007 6:16 am
The mind is a filter feeder. It absorbs and largely becomes what it eats. Vanity often sets in once a critical mass of knowledge has been absorbed, but for some reason is also self-absorbed and unconscious of the need to grow forever.
But humility is not the opposite of vanity. Rather it is wisdom, a most mysterious and elusive compound of both thinking and living and suffering.
Karl Garcia on Tue, 28th Aug 2007 6:18 am
BrianB,
I know that would not sound right quotable quote, I mean you can quote on your own fine. As you have said,as well,that you hate pretentious stuff.
Karl Garcia on Tue, 28th Aug 2007 6:48 am
Speaking of which,by the way we “frame”or “collect” coments,it is a form of quotable quote.
No offense to anyone,because I do that to,and I am speaking for myself.
In poltics antedating war,even murder,when saying Genesis,remeber that temptation stuff eating the fruit from the tree of wisdom;that is purely Genesis.And who knows Milton kust have read Genesis too.
When we say Darwinism,we associate it for the theory or law he is known for like Survival of the fittest through Natural Selection. but brianb may be right Law of of Gravity was never called pure newtonism.And theory of Relativity was never called Einsteinism,instead it is called Einstein’s theory of realtivity.
what can be called pure,Diamonds are called the purest form of carbon and yet it can still be subdivided to many karats
oh,what ever!
Karl Garcia on Tue, 28th Aug 2007 6:58 am
To the one searching for God named Devil’s;by the way you said it,I assume that the search is not over because youu still want to search some more.
I don’t believe in identity crisis should be left to puberty,as one said here better start believing in something and as one said, Decide with reason,Act with conviction.
Devil’s
all i can say is:
never decide when you are angry and never make promises when you are happy.
Abe N. Margallo on Tue, 28th Aug 2007 8:21 am
“never decide when you are angry and never make promises when you are happy”
I google that . . . an original quotable quote?
Karl Garcia on Tue, 28th Aug 2007 9:01 am
Abe,
Nothing is original in this world only patented,and copyrighted ones and who ever claims it ..
I will never claim ownership to it, because it was a forwarded text.
Karl Garcia on Tue, 28th Aug 2007 9:05 am
If only the telcos can upload all those forwarded text messages into a server,we will have either of two things,they maybe treasure or junk in the net.
Karl Garcia on Tue, 28th Aug 2007 9:15 am
By the way when one said memes are the genetic form of memory,and one said that he does not thhink so,or that was not he was talking about when inheriting memory;
Another way to define meme is to spread catch phrases like what we are doing now through internet memes.
another point of confusion.
When they say they are humanists,do they mean they are scholars or academicians in Humanities? or simply prolife,pro dignity and whatnot?.
Pinapahirap ko ba ang simple?
Bencard on Tue, 28th Aug 2007 9:25 am
yeah, brianb. filipinos should see their politicians as ‘real people’ rather than mythical or make believe heroes as in the movies. after all, they also go to the bathroom everyday, and put their pants the same way – one leg after the other.
DJB on Tue, 28th Aug 2007 9:57 am
Brianb,
You don’t understand Darwinism or its principles. You are obviously wrong in your interpretation since there are many short, bald, fat, nonviolent men who are in positions of power and distinction in the world, along with tall, hairy, thin, violent hunks.
Who’s confused?
DJB on Tue, 28th Aug 2007 10:01 am
On the INDOLENCE of the Filipinos: nowadays it is MENTAL!
Karl Garcia on Tue, 28th Aug 2007 10:21 am
Who’s confused?
I certainly am right now!
Indolence is mental….let me go back to life before the celphone.
correct,it is probably mental.
DJB on Tue, 28th Aug 2007 11:09 am
Karl,
There are several varieties of indolence:
physical indolence
is when you are too lazy to use your body.
mental indolence
is when you are too lazy to use your mind.
BLOGDOLENCE is when you see blogging as a means of showing off, since it is so safely abandonable at any given time and we are all largely anonymous. Only MLQ3 has a real face in the real world that this blog’s participants occupy.
I blog and comment for the rare but invaluable experience of being proven wrong by someone who disagrees with something I may have thought I actually believed in, but discover that I shouldn’t.
We learn the most from those who disagree with us! but only if they can convince us and we have enough of an open mind to accept the possibility.
Thus blogs are whetstones for the brain.
Abe N. Margallo on Tue, 28th Aug 2007 12:00 pm
I thought we got the point across that indolence is judgeMENTAL? hehe
cvj on Tue, 28th Aug 2007 12:54 pm
I agree with your advice that we take stock of our values. I would also like to add that we should do an inventory of our prejudices. I do hope that if and when the terror attacks happen, we will not be like the Americans who lashed out at an entire people resulting in the deaths of hundreds of thousands (and counting).
Abe N. Margallo on Tue, 28th Aug 2007 1:14 pm
One thing is clear to me. Prevention by means of preventive war is a war crime especially if the perceived threat is manufactured or sexed-up. This belief is based on the fundamental value of respect for life.
grd on Tue, 28th Aug 2007 1:27 pm
“I thought we got the point across that indolence is judgeMENTAL? Heheâ€
its not indolence but BLOGDOLENCE that is judgeMENTAL.:)
Karl Garcia on Tue, 28th Aug 2007 1:32 pm
DJB,
Thanks again for the clarification.
Take care,sir!
Ako din as I have said i am here to learn.
For someone Identified and not anonymous,I think you have
expressed views that are let us say not so popular.
I remeber the times when you still have that enigma; When
people kept on asking who on earth is DJB Rizalist?
Now, that we have seen your face,on tv on pictures of
blog conferences and what not;the enigma may be gone but
you stuck to your convictions.
Karl Garcia on Tue, 28th Aug 2007 1:44 pm
CVJ,
About that bases,On news reports here,it was said that the structures are only temporary.
Now, they tell us.
What I am not comfortable with, are the rumors that the soldiers are their bacause of rewards from Uncle Sam,now that is plain horse manure.
But what about the rumor that the incumbent gov of Basilan is behind the attacks from way back as more than a decade ago,when Abu sayaff was not even heard of yet,pano na yan? Hirap talaga pagmagaling maglinis ng evidence,konting deadma at denial lang,malilimutan na natin. Eto,the whole incident pag kumalma malilimutan siguro natin ito let us give or take six months.(isali na natin ang mga comments sa comment thread ng blog)
DJB on Tue, 28th Aug 2007 1:50 pm
okay abe,
so you think the ambush killings and beheading were sexed up? invented? not true? what are you? a coprophiliac?
btw, i looked it up. the last “all-out war” was also sparked by a kidnapping for ransom of a Father Blanco and the hostaging of 300 civilians by the MILF at the Kauswagan Town Hall. It was in the fiercest gun battles of recent memory that Ariel Querubin won the highest military honors for bravery in action and the daring rescue of every single hostage (not one was killed.)Then followed the fight to liberate the Narciso Ramos Hiway and the capture of Camp Abubakr.
Sexy enough for you human rights acivists?
congratulations cvj, you recognize the existence of “terror attacks”.
What do you suggest we do? Demonstrate against American combat troops delivering health care and building bridges. Call for peace talks and forget about the murders and beheadings and concentrate on peace talks some more?
Why do object to laws being enforced (just RPC ones not the HSA) by the military when the police can hardly be expected to go against such forces?
If you guys wanna fight Bush, why don’t you go and fight Bush in the name of the Taliban, and leave the Filipinos to save their Republic?
DJB on Tue, 28th Aug 2007 1:56 pm
Karl,
My reading of the SWS survey on world public opinion is that the views of the vast majority of the Filipinos are very much in line with mine, both here and among OFWs. In fact, I would say that I am actually slightly to the Left of the middle of the Silent Majority.
Leftists by contrast are a marginalized sector so disconnected from the way the people feel that “weird” is a better description. Most of them just don’t hear themselves talking.
The only reason they are still allowed to make fools of themselves by the people is because the people do understand democracy and freedom and they know the totalitarians would just as soon destroy the system they are merely using.
But the CPP NPA and their Left front organizations aren’t even he baddest asses on the block anymore because all those macho man revolutionary ex professors and professional activists wouldn’t have the balls to hack off a human beings head.
They are just too petit-bourgeois.
pedro on Tue, 28th Aug 2007 2:04 pm
“One thing is clear to me. Prevention by means of preventive war is a war crime especially if the perceived threat is manufactured or sexed-up. This belief is based on the fundamental value of respect for life.”
I don’t think we have to worry about that. We have had 1,903 terror incidents from 1984-1997. 394 terror incidents from 1998-2004.(and counting) Despite the injuries, fatalities and damages done to private citizens, property, and business, the never ending cycle of cease fires/peace talks and resuming military action has always been the norm.
DJB on Tue, 28th Aug 2007 2:22 pm
Does anybody know if the MNLF are Sunnis maybe, and the MILF are Shia? Hmmmm maybe we should give them each their own homelands, right next to one another, say on either side of the Pulangi River?
We won’t have to lift a fascist finger to solve our problems!
Shaman of Malilipot on Tue, 28th Aug 2007 2:53 pm
DJB, how many heads have you hacked off?
Devilsadvc8 on Tue, 28th Aug 2007 2:58 pm
oh cmon DJB. you want what’s happening in Iraq to happen in our backyard? ‘coz what’s tearing Iraq apart is not just the terrorism (agst the americans), you know. it’s the beginnings of a civil war bet the Sunnis and Shias. At least in here, you don’t see the majority muslim factions killing their minority counterparts. or has it begun already?
Karl, I think when people claim they’re humanist, they’re largely admitting in believing in the advocacies of humanism, which largely run similar to secularism. academics of humanities i think, are not included.
BrianB, of course there’s no politics in heaven. The politics was in the war, call it a schism, if you will. hey, maybe Lucifer invented politics…
on blogdolence, its an oxymoron i think. what is blogging after all, if not engaging in mental exercise? it maybe a kind of physical indolence, but not a mental one. and saying we are largely anonymous is too encompassing, i think. i esp take exception to that. i may use a pseudonym here, but i link my blog (and my friendster profile) here, and you can’t claim that to be hiding behind the cover of anonymity, when im as exposed as anyone else who go by their true names and faces in their blogs are. yeah, i may not be as famous as Manolo or as DJB, yet. but that doesn’t make me a coward.
i bear my whole self open to the web, and you call that cowardice? i hope you were just referring to those who still hide behind anonymity and not all bloggers in general.
manuelbuencamino on Tue, 28th Aug 2007 4:00 pm
DJB,
You outdo Miriam with your flages of brilliance.
You mistake ideology for knowledge and wisdom.
Miriam and Joma rolled into one.
BrianB on Tue, 28th Aug 2007 4:12 pm
“You don’t understand Darwinism or its principles. You are obviously wrong in your interpretation since there are many short, bald, fat, nonviolent men who are in positions of power and distinction in the world, along with tall, hairy, thin, violent hunks.”
You’ve been lazy on research and on reading other people’s comments. It’s politics who make fat, bald ugly men rule, not Darwinism, Kaya nga sabi ko, progress yung politics from Darwinism.
Jeg on Tue, 28th Aug 2007 4:16 pm
Pfsh! What does Darwinism have to do with politics? Do politicians randomly mutate? Politicians are made, some even self-made. They are not a product of random mutation, but are a product of intelligent design – and I use the word ‘intelligent’ rather loosely.
BrianB on Tue, 28th Aug 2007 4:18 pm
“BrianB, of course there’s no politics in heaven. The politics was in the war, call it a schism, if you will. hey, maybe Lucifer invented politics…”
Devil, ang sinasabi mo eh meme yan nang libro ni John Milton.
That’s why people describe a decline in politics during dictatorships and an absence of politics during tyrannical regimes. May politika ba sa NoKor?
BrianB on Tue, 28th Aug 2007 4:42 pm
“Pfsh! What does Darwinism have to do with politics? Do politicians randomly mutate? ”
That’s what I said. Darwinism for animals and some primitive men, politics for homo sapiens sapiens. My point is, every time a business man or social theorist points out Darwinism, I want to tell him that: That social Darwinism is actually a primitive mentality. Politics is way better. Of course, politics can be crap too, but, as I explained it, only because the masses don’t participate in politics. They are mere spectators, watching TV etc. If they are political like Europeans are political, and I don’t mean they have to be MLQIII studying politics and current events all day, but just mildly interested and even casually interested in politics things would be better.
Kaya spoiled politico natin, masa nanonood lang.
Devilsadvc8 on Tue, 28th Aug 2007 4:54 pm
Brian, oo na. kanina mo pa sinasabi yan. hagilapin ko na lng si Milton pag nakita ko. di ko pa kasi nabasa kaya excused naman siguro ako kung medyo ignorante ako sa kanya. di ko naman kini claim na orihinal ideya ko eh.
“May politika ba sa NoKor?”
oo naman. kahit sa loob ng sarili nilang partido meron. sila-sila rin nagsasaksakan ng patalikod. one-party state does not preclude the absence of politics. even tyrannical regimes have politics brewing behind. it’s naivety to even suggest politics can be separated from human activities.
Karl Garcia on Tue, 28th Aug 2007 5:17 pm
Ok DJB,
when I sa unpopular I meant in this thread,but now that you have mentioned SWS surveys,I will base mine on what I see on TV,even people in Sulu welcome the Americans with open arms.
Devils, thanks for clearing up that humanist question of mine.
BrianB on Tue, 28th Aug 2007 5:31 pm
Devil,
Thanks God for Wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politics
BrianB on Tue, 28th Aug 2007 5:38 pm
Devil,
Politics is a vague word, is that what you mean. Or do you mean specifically about human behavior with regards to the manipulation of power. Kasi, pag ganoon ang definition at may absolute tyrant ka, halos wala nang pulitika yan, eh. Kasi lahat nang sinasabi nya nasusunod. Wala nang leverage ang ibang tao. All you can do is humor him and perhaps even seduce him.Yes, these are political techniques too, but if you are all-knowing and omnipotent like God, wala nang pulitika lag, disobedience na lang.
That’s what’s wrong with secularism, it has no comprehension of religion.
Karl Garcia on Tue, 28th Aug 2007 6:31 pm
brian,
Re: North Korea
Is it not that totalitarianism,authoritarianism and Stalinism a form of polititics?
And even if North Korea is a one party system,the party is made up of coalitions.
Since Wikipedia is handy,I will refer to it and cut and paste:
”
North Korea is a single-party state with a Stalinist, authoritarian, and totalitarian regime. The governing party is the Democratic Front for the Reunification of the Fatherland, a coalition made up of three smaller parties, the Workers’ Party of Korea, the Korean Social Democratic Party and the Chondoist Chongu Party. These parties nominate all candidates for office and hold all seats in the Supreme People’s Assembly.”
Regarding secularism, that it has no comprehension of religion.
The thing is they do,like the separation of church and state. The state has comprehebsion of religion butonly wants to separate from it,thus secularism is simply putis to separate from religion.
Politics maybe vague,but it is everywhere.
cvj on Tue, 28th Aug 2007 9:00 pm
Since i’ve long recognized the existence of such attacks, I guess you’re addressing that remark to my strawman counterpart. If your idea of ’saving the Republic’ is turning over Basilan to the Americans to set-up a Guantanamo-like base there, then i believe you’re more of an asset to the Taliban than us guys.
Devilsadvc8 on Tue, 28th Aug 2007 10:44 pm
well, I guess Karl had made my case for me. both abt the absence of politics in a tyranny or secularism having no comprehension of religion.
perhaps its the religious fanatics out there who really has no idea abt what secularism is. maybe that is bec they automatically assume all secularists are satanists w/o bothering to find out if even all of them does not believe in God or a god. or even w/o bothering to notice that what secularists are fighting for is not killing their God or their religion, but merely removing the dominant religious groups’ influence in the govt to the disadvantage of the minorities.
and Brian, im not an agnostic (now). i said i was, for a time. and being a heretic? to which religion?
Abe N. Margallo on Tue, 28th Aug 2007 11:30 pm
Despite the injuries, fatalities and damages done to private citizens, property, and business, the never ending cycle of cease fires/peace talks and resuming military action has always been the norm. Pedro
The “norm†sometimes is good business. There’s an old word for it – “merchants of death.â€
Six years ago
Helsingin Sanomat and The Boston Globe produced a joint report showing that both the Philippine military and government have been involved in a cover-up over Lamitan incident hat took place in June 2001. The tragedy, a web of collusion between the AFP, Abu Sayyaf, local wardlord and blood money, claimed several innocent lives.
At that time the question raised was whether the AFP is even interested in getting rid of the Abu Sayyaf Group.
Eye-witnesses to the incident have recounted that ASG leaders managed to escape from the Lamitan siege by fleeing to safety from a high-walled hospital complex that was surrounded by AFP units.
Hours after the “Great Escape,†the AFP launched an attack on the complex, with only civilians inside.
A ransom of 25 million pesos was paid to secure the release of hostage Reghis Romero II and two others. According to a friend of Romero and a catholic priest, the money was split among the ASG, the military and some politicians.
The Present
Former chief of staff of the Armed Forces, Biazon made the connection between the ambush in Tipo-Tipo on July 10, 2007 and the siege of Lamitan on June 2, 2001, after a meeting with Senator Antonio Trillanes IV at the latter’s detention cell in Fort Bonifacio during which Trillanes claimed that a conspiracy among “ranking government officials” had led to the killing of 14 Marines and the beheading of 10 of them in a seven-hour ambush of a military convoy in Tipo-Tipo.
Sexy enough?
pedro on Wed, 29th Aug 2007 12:56 am
Wow Abe, there’s corruption in the AFP? Well since you put it that way, let’s just raise the white flag and push for the Islamic state I mean an autonomous Mindanao. I heard the PNP and NBI are also corrupt. That’s going to have to invalidate all the sexy arrests they’ve done against murderers and rapists. We should probably put a hold on all law enforcement, since these people are corrupt. I’ve also heard this sexy rumor that the LTO, BIR, DOJ, BI, DOH, DOL, POEA, DFA are all corrupt.
There was a question that was asked back then, asking why US military and humanitarian assistance always come in the form of equipment and expertise instead of funding or cash. Of course the question was answered in a politically correct way so as not to offend, but everybody in the US side including the local audience knew what really was the answer. A little bird told me that ransom payments between Abu sayaf and the AFP during combat patrols become hard to pull off when armed US visitors are tagging along (out of shame I suppose). Information has been coming out about AFP military hardware and ammunition being sold to various groups. Then we get news about a possible reduction in US Military assistance. Hmmm, maybe US personnel are not as stupid as we think they are.
BrianB on Wed, 29th Aug 2007 1:06 am
“Is it not that totalitarianism,authoritarianism and Stalinism a form of polititics?”
Totalitarianism is the end of politics.
Abe N. Margallo on Wed, 29th Aug 2007 1:36 am
Information has been coming out about AFP military hardware and ammunition being sold to various groups. – Pedro
Wiretapping has been going on with or without the Anti-Wiretapping Law and HSA. It is just one of the instruments of POWER. But when some underpaid low-level officers of the Intelligence Service of the Armed Forces Philippines (aka Isafp) start selling their “poisoned fruit,†something is really, really wrong with the Philippine economy.
Karl Garcia on Wed, 29th Aug 2007 7:01 am
be, you are forgetting something, Biazon has seen more than Trillanes has. He has been on the the force since 1955 including PMA years.
In 1992 a group of Marines were beheaded and mutilated for just attending a party.
There are more incidents unreported that resulted to widows and orphans.
Sexed up? Blame the media wars.
Imagine making an issue of the dud mortars.
I repeat wear and tear maybe a cause of such,not just mere misdelivery by our suppliers.
Lots of vicious cycles to turninto virtuous ones.
Sad to say,Garci has taken over the investigations;
Parallelism to 2001 and 2007 incidents,has to take a backseat.
no one is sexier than Garci….YUCK!
Bencard on Wed, 29th Aug 2007 9:26 am
it’s not “the economy, stupid”. it’s the character of the people that was born out of a culture of opportunism, the me-first-before-anything-else-so-to hell-with-country syndrome. scoundrels usually finds something else to blame for their misdeeds, and a gullible “bleeding heart” to believe them.
btw, how could trillianes claim to know anything other than unreliable hearsay when he is languishing in jail? it could mean something “big” for biazon but why should anyone believe him either? these are the kinds of talk that fu..ked up the country, that we can well do without.
Shaman of Malilipot on Wed, 29th Aug 2007 1:08 pm
“Wow Abe, there’s corruption in the AFP?” – pedro
Why do you sound so incredulous? Haven’t you heard before? You weren’t born yesterday, were you?
inodoro ni emilie on Wed, 29th Aug 2007 3:00 pm
“the me-first-before-anything-else-so-to hell-with-country syndrome.”
haha. sounds like the mantra of those who left the country during its dark ages.
Bencard on Wed, 29th Aug 2007 8:09 pm
inodoro, really? so you finally admits the country is no longer in “dark ages”. who do you thank for it? not cory or erap, do you?
inodoro ni emilie on Thu, 30th Aug 2007 10:31 am
darker still, bencard, darker still. but i will not use the escape chute myself.
Bencard on Thu, 30th Aug 2007 10:42 am
inodoro, if it is good enough for you, it should be for me. i’m coming back …soon because i’m bullish on the philippines.
Manila Bay Watch on Fri, 31st Aug 2007 5:18 pm
MB,
Re ‘funny thing thing is that there is a growing movement in England and the US to go back to the traditional method of voting. They believe errors and cheating are harder to catch using those hi-tech voting machines.’
Not only in the UK but also in France. During the last prez elections, commissionners found that voting with those electronic gadgets was so time consuming for the non tech savvy, eg, older generation of voters and even those who were acquainted with new tech found the system much too complicated. Many precincts junked the machines halfway during the election day in favour of good old fashion ballots.
cvj on Fri, 31st Aug 2007 6:51 pm
Bencard, that’s good to hear! They do need senior guys here to help the young population.
Devilsadvc8 on Fri, 31st Aug 2007 8:14 pm
“i’m coming back …soon because i’m bullish on the philippines.”
i on the other hand, am contemplating (just contemplating) doing the opposite. unfortunate, am not as bullish as you. perhaps its the threat of the curtains coming down that’s giving me 2nd thoughts…
Bencard on Sat, 1st Sep 2007 12:39 am
yeah, devils, that’s a point to ponder on. what would it be like after pgma. as the old cliche’ goes, “the devil you know is better than the devil you don’t”. just look at the possible replacements (ugh!).
Bencard on Sat, 1st Sep 2007 12:43 am
cvj, what about senior gals? are you not committing a political-correctness faux pax? ca’t probably won’t like it (lol).
Devilsadvc8 on Sat, 1st Sep 2007 3:19 am
actually Bencard, I’m talking about GMA refusing to leave. Re the possible replacements, I am still hoping though that there will be someone like a Fr Ed who will all rally us against the current crops offering themselves as presidentiables. The question is: are they willing to do so?
“The problem with power Harry, is that those who are best fit for it, do not desire it…”
Perhaps we can entreat them to at least give it a shot can’t we? A signature campaign or a petition asking that individual to file their candidacy may just move them to do it, eh?
Bencard on Sat, 1st Sep 2007 4:20 am
devils, oh, you’re looking for a messiah, huh? they are a dime a dozen – but only during the campaign period. after that, it’s the same old “same old”. fr, panlilio? the jury is still out. remember, power corrupts and even priests are corruptible.
Bencard on Sat, 1st Sep 2007 4:26 am
btw, if pgma refuses to leave and somehow (miraculously) she suceeds, then i will have more reason to come back.