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	<title>Comments on: The Long View: Sobriety versus Wowowee</title>
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	<link>http://www.quezon.ph/2010/02/15/the-long-view-sobriety-versus-wowowee/</link>
	<description>Punditry. Politics. History. Commentary.</description>
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		<title>By: parirami</title>
		<link>http://www.quezon.ph/2010/02/15/the-long-view-sobriety-versus-wowowee/comment-page-1/#comment-1076321</link>
		<dc:creator>parirami</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Feb 2010 11:10:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.quezon.ph/?p=3783#comment-1076321</guid>
		<description>@ manolo, i was really happy to know that it wasn&#039;t addressed to me. appreciate the immediate reply. thanks!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@ manolo, i was really happy to know that it wasn&#8217;t addressed to me. appreciate the immediate reply. thanks!</p>
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		<title>By: mlq3</title>
		<link>http://www.quezon.ph/2010/02/15/the-long-view-sobriety-versus-wowowee/comment-page-1/#comment-1076288</link>
		<dc:creator>mlq3</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Feb 2010 04:13:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.quezon.ph/?p=3783#comment-1076288</guid>
		<description>no i was replying to someone else concerning viewing things through the prism of class.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>no i was replying to someone else concerning viewing things through the prism of class.</p>
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		<title>By: parirami</title>
		<link>http://www.quezon.ph/2010/02/15/the-long-view-sobriety-versus-wowowee/comment-page-1/#comment-1076287</link>
		<dc:creator>parirami</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Feb 2010 03:25:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.quezon.ph/?p=3783#comment-1076287</guid>
		<description>@carl, Cusp thanks for clearing it up for me. 
@mlq3, I finally understand your contention although I can&#039;t understand why you could presume that I have my beliefs set already. (I hope I&#039;m mistaken that it&#039;s me you&#039;re replying too) 

It comes across to me as a dismissive opinion about how I view things, and sadly it&#039;s this sort of rhetoric that is hard to take for our many kababayans - that their question won&#039;t matter because &#039;they will believe what they want to believe&#039;. No, our minds our not set and they don&#039;t refuse to learn from experts. We are careful though about who we listen to and careful about agendas ... and sometimes that&#039;s the one exploited. People can still be swayed, but will logic hold well without the proper approach? It&#039;s something to think about. 

How do we explain this to people in the other socio-economic classes whose interests and priorities are very different from the public officials? I think this is where the campaigns of villar and noynoy are battling it out now or at least where they need to work on (D&amp;E as you say).

Lastly, if we can&#039;t fully predict the economic impact of each of their policies, how do settle the score between the two (or three in my case)?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@carl, Cusp thanks for clearing it up for me.<br />
@mlq3, I finally understand your contention although I can&#8217;t understand why you could presume that I have my beliefs set already. (I hope I&#8217;m mistaken that it&#8217;s me you&#8217;re replying too) </p>
<p>It comes across to me as a dismissive opinion about how I view things, and sadly it&#8217;s this sort of rhetoric that is hard to take for our many kababayans &#8211; that their question won&#8217;t matter because &#8216;they will believe what they want to believe&#8217;. No, our minds our not set and they don&#8217;t refuse to learn from experts. We are careful though about who we listen to and careful about agendas &#8230; and sometimes that&#8217;s the one exploited. People can still be swayed, but will logic hold well without the proper approach? It&#8217;s something to think about. </p>
<p>How do we explain this to people in the other socio-economic classes whose interests and priorities are very different from the public officials? I think this is where the campaigns of villar and noynoy are battling it out now or at least where they need to work on (D&amp;E as you say).</p>
<p>Lastly, if we can&#8217;t fully predict the economic impact of each of their policies, how do settle the score between the two (or three in my case)?</p>
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		<title>By: mlq3</title>
		<link>http://www.quezon.ph/2010/02/15/the-long-view-sobriety-versus-wowowee/comment-page-1/#comment-1076276</link>
		<dc:creator>mlq3</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Feb 2010 16:51:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.quezon.ph/?p=3783#comment-1076276</guid>
		<description>like i said you will believe what you want to believe. with the circumstances you put forward he is no different from amany members of the middle and upper classes working in many companies here or who derive family income from rentals, farms, fishpens, etc. and it is how you qualify what is a real job because by that measure no job in a family corporation or where you or your family knows anyone is a &quot;real job&quot;. without even delving into the actual job, the job itself is dismissed out of hand due to the identity of the person. and if you then paint things with an even broader brush, it ignores those who do try to conduct themselves conscientiously or without regards to distinctions that should matter. what is being sought is public office and the proper measure is the handling of public office -particularly in the light of how public office has been handled not just by the contenders but those who&#039;ve created the present situation where all the talent is dissipated in trying to stave off accountability: for example whether there has been any taint of irresponsibility or fraud or theft or criminal behavior in the conduct of public office. in the end the comparison that should matter is better someone who is careful about the parameters that govern official action to someone who claims accomplishments based on holding nothing sacred. or put another way it is precisely the so-called accomplishments and track record of some that make selecting someone else untainted by such things attractive for public office.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>like i said you will believe what you want to believe. with the circumstances you put forward he is no different from amany members of the middle and upper classes working in many companies here or who derive family income from rentals, farms, fishpens, etc. and it is how you qualify what is a real job because by that measure no job in a family corporation or where you or your family knows anyone is a &#8220;real job&#8221;. without even delving into the actual job, the job itself is dismissed out of hand due to the identity of the person. and if you then paint things with an even broader brush, it ignores those who do try to conduct themselves conscientiously or without regards to distinctions that should matter. what is being sought is public office and the proper measure is the handling of public office -particularly in the light of how public office has been handled not just by the contenders but those who&#8217;ve created the present situation where all the talent is dissipated in trying to stave off accountability: for example whether there has been any taint of irresponsibility or fraud or theft or criminal behavior in the conduct of public office. in the end the comparison that should matter is better someone who is careful about the parameters that govern official action to someone who claims accomplishments based on holding nothing sacred. or put another way it is precisely the so-called accomplishments and track record of some that make selecting someone else untainted by such things attractive for public office.</p>
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		<title>By: mlq3</title>
		<link>http://www.quezon.ph/2010/02/15/the-long-view-sobriety-versus-wowowee/comment-page-1/#comment-1076275</link>
		<dc:creator>mlq3</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Feb 2010 16:44:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.quezon.ph/?p=3783#comment-1076275</guid>
		<description>no what i&#039;m saying is the focus can be narrower in the senate although much broader by virtue of representing a national constituency in the first place. but when running for president you&#039;re required to articulate policies from a to z.so in the senate while tackling oversight and corruption you can concentrate your energies on specific advocacies such as increased oversight on military procurements or on oversight of line departments but when running for president you will be asked for a comprehensive policy as an administration and not  legislator who exercises oversight. the orientation is different.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>no what i&#8217;m saying is the focus can be narrower in the senate although much broader by virtue of representing a national constituency in the first place. but when running for president you&#8217;re required to articulate policies from a to z.so in the senate while tackling oversight and corruption you can concentrate your energies on specific advocacies such as increased oversight on military procurements or on oversight of line departments but when running for president you will be asked for a comprehensive policy as an administration and not  legislator who exercises oversight. the orientation is different.</p>
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		<title>By: thecusponline</title>
		<link>http://www.quezon.ph/2010/02/15/the-long-view-sobriety-versus-wowowee/comment-page-1/#comment-1076271</link>
		<dc:creator>thecusponline</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Feb 2010 13:19:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.quezon.ph/?p=3783#comment-1076271</guid>
		<description>parirami, 

As the ZTE NBN scam has demonstrated, the budget is just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to patronage in our country. Sure there is pork and other insertions are present, but it is in the off-budget items, where a larger potential for profiting comes from. 

Through govt to govt borrowing (as opposed to the deficit spending which is financed through the commercial money markets) a lot of projects escape the scrutiny of the budget process. That is why so many legislators don&#039;t even bother attending budget hearings. It is not where they derive their largesse. Off-budget items, payoffs from illegal activities and from selling government regulations or incentives to special interests can provide more handsome rewards.

So a promise not to increase taxes or to control spending does not necessarily equate to a lowering of benefits to opportunistic operators.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>parirami, </p>
<p>As the ZTE NBN scam has demonstrated, the budget is just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to patronage in our country. Sure there is pork and other insertions are present, but it is in the off-budget items, where a larger potential for profiting comes from. </p>
<p>Through govt to govt borrowing (as opposed to the deficit spending which is financed through the commercial money markets) a lot of projects escape the scrutiny of the budget process. That is why so many legislators don&#8217;t even bother attending budget hearings. It is not where they derive their largesse. Off-budget items, payoffs from illegal activities and from selling government regulations or incentives to special interests can provide more handsome rewards.</p>
<p>So a promise not to increase taxes or to control spending does not necessarily equate to a lowering of benefits to opportunistic operators.</p>
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		<title>By: Carl Cid Inting</title>
		<link>http://www.quezon.ph/2010/02/15/the-long-view-sobriety-versus-wowowee/comment-page-1/#comment-1076270</link>
		<dc:creator>Carl Cid Inting</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Feb 2010 12:42:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.quezon.ph/?p=3783#comment-1076270</guid>
		<description>Nobody knows the exact figure when they talk about potential revenues and lost revenues. Much of it is just extrapolated. It&#039;s mostly educated guesswork. It&#039;s very hard to figure the exact extent and amounts lost to corruption. Figures bandied around are simply guesses. 

It&#039;s not even that clear where the biggest revenue losses are. Is it in bloated public work contracts? Certainly that is a major item. There are huge syndicates out there and they are well-established, with connections to all political candidates. 

Is it in smuggling? There&#039;s a huge business in fuel and oil smuggling, amounting to billions of pesos annually. There&#039;s food, clothing, appliances, vehicles and lots of other stuff smuggled in from China and elsewhere (rice and sugar included). Those are big revenue losses, too. Smuggling is very difficult to control because it also results in some benefits for the public, mainly the lower cost of goods.

Is it in the failure to collect excise, income and other taxes? That&#039;s a consideration. But the BIR certainly has been squeezing a lot of businesses and individuals lately, and there&#039;s a huge outcry. Taxes are not well-liked because they increase the cost of doing business. 

What about pork barrel? Politicians will certainly complain if pork is cut. But so will a large part of the public. Because a good portion of the pork is distributed to different constituencies, albeit with much of it sticking to the politicians&#039; fingers. But it is a redistribution of wealth of some sort, and it does have some multiplier effect, although in a very inefficient and very roundabout way. But I think that there&#039;s no question that pork barrel results in huge waste of money. It&#039;s finding an alternative that&#039;s the problem, because it&#039;s the fat that greases the political machineries.

And much of the corruption is at the local level. Can a national official control the local officials, especially if these local officials provide logistical and statistical support during elections? The Singsons, the Ampatuans and all those political dynasties and warlords are there for a reason. There&#039;s a symbiotic relationship with the national government, that&#039;s why there has been high tolerance for them. Cory Aquino decried these dynasties and warlords, but she made her pact with them anyway. Would any other president be different? I can only hope so, but I&#039;m not betting on it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nobody knows the exact figure when they talk about potential revenues and lost revenues. Much of it is just extrapolated. It&#8217;s mostly educated guesswork. It&#8217;s very hard to figure the exact extent and amounts lost to corruption. Figures bandied around are simply guesses. </p>
<p>It&#8217;s not even that clear where the biggest revenue losses are. Is it in bloated public work contracts? Certainly that is a major item. There are huge syndicates out there and they are well-established, with connections to all political candidates. </p>
<p>Is it in smuggling? There&#8217;s a huge business in fuel and oil smuggling, amounting to billions of pesos annually. There&#8217;s food, clothing, appliances, vehicles and lots of other stuff smuggled in from China and elsewhere (rice and sugar included). Those are big revenue losses, too. Smuggling is very difficult to control because it also results in some benefits for the public, mainly the lower cost of goods.</p>
<p>Is it in the failure to collect excise, income and other taxes? That&#8217;s a consideration. But the BIR certainly has been squeezing a lot of businesses and individuals lately, and there&#8217;s a huge outcry. Taxes are not well-liked because they increase the cost of doing business. </p>
<p>What about pork barrel? Politicians will certainly complain if pork is cut. But so will a large part of the public. Because a good portion of the pork is distributed to different constituencies, albeit with much of it sticking to the politicians&#8217; fingers. But it is a redistribution of wealth of some sort, and it does have some multiplier effect, although in a very inefficient and very roundabout way. But I think that there&#8217;s no question that pork barrel results in huge waste of money. It&#8217;s finding an alternative that&#8217;s the problem, because it&#8217;s the fat that greases the political machineries.</p>
<p>And much of the corruption is at the local level. Can a national official control the local officials, especially if these local officials provide logistical and statistical support during elections? The Singsons, the Ampatuans and all those political dynasties and warlords are there for a reason. There&#8217;s a symbiotic relationship with the national government, that&#8217;s why there has been high tolerance for them. Cory Aquino decried these dynasties and warlords, but she made her pact with them anyway. Would any other president be different? I can only hope so, but I&#8217;m not betting on it.</p>
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		<title>By: parirami</title>
		<link>http://www.quezon.ph/2010/02/15/the-long-view-sobriety-versus-wowowee/comment-page-1/#comment-1076268</link>
		<dc:creator>parirami</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Feb 2010 11:07:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.quezon.ph/?p=3783#comment-1076268</guid>
		<description>hey nobody has answered my question yet, who benefits best under each of their policies and how will either approach affect the various segments of society? Can someone explain which policy works better? Like I said I am not very good with economics so I really would like to know...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>hey nobody has answered my question yet, who benefits best under each of their policies and how will either approach affect the various segments of society? Can someone explain which policy works better? Like I said I am not very good with economics so I really would like to know&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Carl Cid Inting</title>
		<link>http://www.quezon.ph/2010/02/15/the-long-view-sobriety-versus-wowowee/comment-page-1/#comment-1076267</link>
		<dc:creator>Carl Cid Inting</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Feb 2010 10:09:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.quezon.ph/?p=3783#comment-1076267</guid>
		<description>I think that you are either delusional, Manolo, or you are simply embellishing facts to put some polish to your candidate. You want to believe a lot of things about Noynoy which simply aren&#039;t there. He never proved himself. Perhaps never had to, because he always had that silver spoon in his mouth. He never even had to hold a real job to earn a living. He just lived off his family and his mother&#039;s cronies, such as Tony &quot;Mondragon&quot; Gonzalez. He lived off the fat of the land of Luisita, being on its payroll, while the tenants were being squeezed like sponges. Those are facts.

And the fact also is that Philippine politics has been blighted by the existence of the caciques and the trapos, who dominated it and bastardized it for years. And, with Noynoy, it&#039;s a &quot;two-fer&quot;. For the price of one, you get BOTH a cacique and a trapo. Maybe that&#039;s the bargain that&#039;s behind your selling point. :-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think that you are either delusional, Manolo, or you are simply embellishing facts to put some polish to your candidate. You want to believe a lot of things about Noynoy which simply aren&#8217;t there. He never proved himself. Perhaps never had to, because he always had that silver spoon in his mouth. He never even had to hold a real job to earn a living. He just lived off his family and his mother&#8217;s cronies, such as Tony &#8220;Mondragon&#8221; Gonzalez. He lived off the fat of the land of Luisita, being on its payroll, while the tenants were being squeezed like sponges. Those are facts.</p>
<p>And the fact also is that Philippine politics has been blighted by the existence of the caciques and the trapos, who dominated it and bastardized it for years. And, with Noynoy, it&#8217;s a &#8220;two-fer&#8221;. For the price of one, you get BOTH a cacique and a trapo. Maybe that&#8217;s the bargain that&#8217;s behind your selling point. <img src='http://www.quezon.ph/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Brian Brotarlo</title>
		<link>http://www.quezon.ph/2010/02/15/the-long-view-sobriety-versus-wowowee/comment-page-1/#comment-1076266</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian Brotarlo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Feb 2010 06:48:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.quezon.ph/?p=3783#comment-1076266</guid>
		<description>MLQ, what are you saying. These devices that&#039;s supposed to minimize corruption are not his advocacy when he was senator?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>MLQ, what are you saying. These devices that&#8217;s supposed to minimize corruption are not his advocacy when he was senator?</p>
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