Comments on: The perils of partition http://www.quezon.ph/2008/08/11/the-perils-of-partition/ Punditry. Politics. History. Commentary. Sat, 04 Feb 2012 11:35:33 +0000 hourly 1 By: don http://www.quezon.ph/2008/08/11/the-perils-of-partition/comment-page-4/#comment-918399 don Mon, 18 Aug 2008 11:39:19 +0000 http://www.quezon.ph/?p=1950#comment-918399 The milf is at war with the republic of the philippines and the republic of the philippines is in talks with the milf... who is watching out for the populace our soldiers and what about the hostages, but the gov has everything under control and we don't need extra support... and the news people continue to disgrace themselves by only interviewing the top level lapdogs, why is it you never hear from the general people on the ground where its happening, its a conspiracy so that the news people don't have to do their job talk about lapdogs yes sir,no sir thank you sir....We do not have journalist these are teleprompter readers and I will go along or write whatever you say.... Oh and thank you sir, We have many news people during this administrations tenor give their lives its time that if you want to continue to persue a life as a journalist then you and only you are responsible to report the story without impartiality.. A Policeman a soldier to mention a few put their lives on the line and you must too.ask,investigate and report without self concern... the truth and nothing but the truth... The milf is at war with the republic of the philippines and the republic of the philippines is in talks with the
milf…
who is watching out for the populace our soldiers and what about the hostages, but the gov has everything under control and we don’t need extra support…
and the news people continue to disgrace themselves by only interviewing the top level lapdogs,
why is it you never hear from the general people on the ground where its happening, its a conspiracy so that the news people don’t have to do their job talk about lapdogs yes sir,no sir thank you sir….We do not have journalist these are teleprompter readers and I will go along or write whatever you say….
Oh and thank you sir, We have many news people
during this administrations tenor give their lives its time that if you want to continue to persue a life as a journalist then you and only you are responsible to report the story without impartiality..
A Policeman a soldier to mention a few put their lives on the line and you must too.ask,investigate and report without self concern…
the truth and nothing but the truth…

]]> By: don http://www.quezon.ph/2008/08/11/the-perils-of-partition/comment-page-4/#comment-918389 don Mon, 18 Aug 2008 11:03:06 +0000 http://www.quezon.ph/?p=1950#comment-918389 Can someone explain the term: they have declared a "virtual war" does that mean we will be fighting over the internet. or would that just be the government. While the milf kills our citizens... the old saying :Don't bring a knife to a gun fight... The gov needs to make a show of force and needs to show that the milf is not a major group in the coming to an agreement with the bangsamoro. and should this conflict esclate the milf will be barred from being represented at any further processes. lets put them on the line sort of speak! you don't act right your out from having your inputs represented... Sometimes it takes war for some to see the right way.. Can someone explain the term: they have declared a “virtual war” does that mean we will be fighting over the internet. or would that just be the government. While the milf kills our citizens…
the old saying :D on’t bring a knife to a gun fight…
The gov needs to make a show of force and needs to show that the milf is not a major group in the coming to an agreement with the bangsamoro.
and should this conflict esclate the milf will be barred from being represented at any further processes. lets put them on the line sort of speak! you don’t act right your out from having your inputs represented…
Sometimes it takes war for some to see the right way..

]]> By: don http://www.quezon.ph/2008/08/11/the-perils-of-partition/comment-page-4/#comment-918387 don Mon, 18 Aug 2008 10:36:06 +0000 http://www.quezon.ph/?p=1950#comment-918387 I could not read all your points of view, therefore I will give you mine,When one sits at a table for the purpose of agreement it is that those persons represent the parties concerned. and that is not the case on both sides when we talk about the moa. the grp (malanganang scapegoats,lapdogs) did not have the authority to even come near the agreement that was put to paper without breaking every law of the land. And I believe the milf do not in anyway represent the bangsamoro or the towns and barangays that have been included in this agreement, So many peoples voices have not been heard. This is being orchestrated by gloria and another way of keeping the bangsamoro in a state of milf marshall law. I say that nothing of conseqeince will be achieved by this administration because no one trust it. every other month their is a major atrocity against this administration it does not take much thought to come to the conclusion that this administration is self serving, not inline with the peoples needs, is not adapt in selecting those to head the inferstucture offices of the nation. and look at the inept group that was sent to the moa debacle. just look at sec dereza lets give them the benefit of the doubt in the mean time their killing civialian soldiers our sons and daughters but they still want to back the moa.. It does not matter if it is illegal or against the constitution lets change everything maybe if were good they won't shoot us... I could not read all your points of view, therefore I will give you mine,When one sits at a table for the purpose of agreement it is that those persons represent the parties concerned. and that is not the case on both sides when we talk about the moa.
the grp (malanganang scapegoats,lapdogs) did not have the authority to even come near the agreement that was put to paper without breaking every law of the land.
And I believe the milf do not in anyway represent the bangsamoro or the towns and barangays that have been included in this agreement, So many peoples voices have not been heard. This is being orchestrated by gloria and another way of keeping the bangsamoro in a state of milf marshall law.
I say that nothing of conseqeince will be achieved by this administration because no one trust it.
every other month their is a major atrocity against this administration it does not take much thought
to come to the conclusion that this administration
is self serving, not inline with the peoples needs, is not adapt in selecting those to head the inferstucture offices of the nation. and look at the inept group that was sent to the moa debacle. just look at sec dereza
lets give them the benefit of the doubt in the mean time their killing civialian soldiers our sons and daughters but they still want to back the moa..
It does not matter if it is illegal or against the constitution lets change everything maybe if were good they won’t shoot us…

]]> By: mang_kiko http://www.quezon.ph/2008/08/11/the-perils-of-partition/comment-page-4/#comment-917519 mang_kiko Sun, 17 Aug 2008 09:09:03 +0000 http://www.quezon.ph/?p=1950#comment-917519 ang sa akin lang po and pinaka epektibo Susi para sa pagtigil nang Daya-an sa Eleksyon ay iyong nagbubukas nang Pintu-an sa bilango-an sa manga-mandaraya at and Automation ay para lang po sa Madali an Mahusay na pagdating sa Resulta nang Eleksyon para hindi na maghintay nang Buwanan para malamam kong sin-o ang "nadaya", at hindi na masyado Magastos ang manga Eleksyon sa Susunod. Pero kong yong lang ang pinaka Motibo nang Automation, wala mangyari dyan, garantisado!!! ang sa akin lang po and pinaka epektibo Susi para sa pagtigil nang Daya-an sa Eleksyon ay iyong nagbubukas nang Pintu-an sa bilango-an sa manga-mandaraya at and Automation ay para lang po sa Madali an Mahusay na pagdating sa Resulta nang Eleksyon para hindi na maghintay nang Buwanan para malamam kong sin-o ang “nadaya”, at hindi na masyado Magastos ang manga Eleksyon sa Susunod.

Pero kong yong lang ang pinaka Motibo nang Automation, wala mangyari dyan, garantisado!!!

]]> By: cvj http://www.quezon.ph/2008/08/11/the-perils-of-partition/comment-page-4/#comment-917310 cvj Sun, 17 Aug 2008 05:13:38 +0000 http://www.quezon.ph/?p=1950#comment-917310 mindanaoan, we cannot take it as a given that <i>'electronic voting'</i> is supposed to be the answer to mistrust of the comelec. Technology alone cannot provide that magic. Any solution that involve automation has to take into account the interplay between technology, people and processes so depending on how these elements interact, there are cases when automation actually increases the chance of fraud. Your approach of using keys is still based on keeping the results a secret for a period of time. That period of secrecy opens the window to fraud via tampering results. For example, in your "n+m" distributed keys proposal, there is still a possibility for COMELEC + NAMFREL + any one party to collude with one another. What i've been saying is that the results must be made known as soon as possible at the precinct level, right after voting closes, so that the chances of wholesale cheating can be minimized because the public will now have a parallel means to aggregate (and validate) the results. Look at the link i provided (at August 14th, 2008 at 4:35 am) for HALAL's explanation of why precinct level tallies should still be conducted. From a process standpoint, an open, massively parallel (and manual) approach to counting is superior to an automated count that relies on keeping the results secret at a given stage. As i commented to grd above (at August 15th, 2008 at 9:41 am), i believe that this manual precinct level counting can therefore act as a critical complement to the automation via OMR scanning approach as it can give both speed and integrity. mindanaoan, we cannot take it as a given that ‘electronic voting’ is supposed to be the answer to mistrust of the comelec. Technology alone cannot provide that magic. Any solution that involve automation has to take into account the interplay between technology, people and processes so depending on how these elements interact, there are cases when automation actually increases the chance of fraud.

Your approach of using keys is still based on keeping the results a secret for a period of time. That period of secrecy opens the window to fraud via tampering results. For example, in your “n+m” distributed keys proposal, there is still a possibility for COMELEC + NAMFREL + any one party to collude with one another.

What i’ve been saying is that the results must be made known as soon as possible at the precinct level, right after voting closes, so that the chances of wholesale cheating can be minimized because the public will now have a parallel means to aggregate (and validate) the results. Look at the link i provided (at August 14th, 2008 at 4:35 am) for HALAL’s explanation of why precinct level tallies should still be conducted.

From a process standpoint, an open, massively parallel (and manual) approach to counting is superior to an automated count that relies on keeping the results secret at a given stage. As i commented to grd above (at August 15th, 2008 at 9:41 am), i believe that this manual precinct level counting can therefore act as a critical complement to the automation via OMR scanning approach as it can give both speed and integrity.

]]> By: mindanaoan http://www.quezon.ph/2008/08/11/the-perils-of-partition/comment-page-3/#comment-917051 mindanaoan Sun, 17 Aug 2008 01:18:05 +0000 http://www.quezon.ph/?p=1950#comment-917051 ok cvj. we use an "n of m" key, where keys are distributed among comelec, namfrel and all involved political parties. only comelec+namfrel+any one (or more) of the parties can open it. any other combination can't. fair? however, by definition and by design, votings systems ought to be secure from tampering by anyone, even by developers. (any hint of insecurity will drive them bankrupt). electronic voting is supposed to be the answer to your mistrust of the comelec. but you would rather you can trust the comelec first. you are putting the cart before the horse. ok cvj. we use an “n of m” key, where keys are distributed among comelec, namfrel and all involved political parties. only comelec+namfrel+any one (or more) of the parties can open it. any other combination can’t. fair?

however, by definition and by design, votings systems ought to be secure from tampering by anyone, even by developers. (any hint of insecurity will drive them bankrupt).

electronic voting is supposed to be the answer to your mistrust of the comelec. but you would rather you can trust the comelec first. you are putting the cart before the horse.

]]> By: cvj http://www.quezon.ph/2008/08/11/the-perils-of-partition/comment-page-3/#comment-916583 cvj Sat, 16 Aug 2008 17:25:06 +0000 http://www.quezon.ph/?p=1950#comment-916583 mindanaoan (at 7:42 pm), it's not even about algorithms but rather, about the proper approach to security given the election process. precisely my point is that the whole approach to security and integrity in the election process is in *not* maintaining the secrecy of the results, which is why jcc's discussion of encryption technologies is premature in the present context. the security and integrity of the data is dependent on it being broadcast at the source (i.e. the precinct) so that it can then be independently tracked. we don't want any black boxes along the way. Someday, when the credibility of the COMELEC improves to a level where it is on par with the American Idol producers, then maybe we can begin to consider online or web-based voting. When that time comes, jcc's (and your) comments on encryption technologies will be relevant. For now, the issue is we cannot trust the COMELEC with election data which is why we cannot allow them to possess the keys which will keep such data secret. Even with the current process where data is out in the open, you already have Abalos, Garci and Bedol. Why would we want to subject ourselves to a high-tech incarnation of these characters? mindanaoan (at 7:42 pm), it’s not even about algorithms but rather, about the proper approach to security given the election process. precisely my point is that the whole approach to security and integrity in the election process is in *not* maintaining the secrecy of the results, which is why jcc’s discussion of encryption technologies is premature in the present context. the security and integrity of the data is dependent on it being broadcast at the source (i.e. the precinct) so that it can then be independently tracked. we don’t want any black boxes along the way.

Someday, when the credibility of the COMELEC improves to a level where it is on par with the American Idol producers, then maybe we can begin to consider online or web-based voting. When that time comes, jcc’s (and your) comments on encryption technologies will be relevant.

For now, the issue is we cannot trust the COMELEC with election data which is why we cannot allow them to possess the keys which will keep such data secret. Even with the current process where data is out in the open, you already have Abalos, Garci and Bedol. Why would we want to subject ourselves to a high-tech incarnation of these characters?

]]> By: Bert http://www.quezon.ph/2008/08/11/the-perils-of-partition/comment-page-3/#comment-916549 Bert Sat, 16 Aug 2008 16:41:29 +0000 http://www.quezon.ph/?p=1950#comment-916549 "if you go by the thread, you will be amazed to find that we are really a fractious society, no wonder we cannot move on.. "-jcc jcc, how can we move on if 'move on' means perpetuating the rule of GMA who is not love by 80% of the people? “if you go by the thread, you will be amazed to find that we are really a fractious society, no wonder we cannot move on.. “-jcc

jcc,

how can we move on if ‘move on’ means perpetuating the rule of GMA who is not love by 80% of the people?

]]> By: mindanaoan http://www.quezon.ph/2008/08/11/the-perils-of-partition/comment-page-3/#comment-916293 mindanaoan Sat, 16 Aug 2008 11:42:01 +0000 http://www.quezon.ph/?p=1950#comment-916293 cvj, your allusion to security based on secrecy versus transparency is about algorithms, not about keys. encryption and digital signatures is always built upon secrecy of keys. on the other hand, audit control and verification is a separate matter from data integrity. i myself want to be able to cross-check results. cvj,

your allusion to security based on secrecy versus transparency is about algorithms, not about keys. encryption and digital signatures is always built upon secrecy of keys.

on the other hand, audit control and verification is a separate matter from data integrity. i myself want to be able to cross-check results.

]]> By: cvj http://www.quezon.ph/2008/08/11/the-perils-of-partition/comment-page-3/#comment-915948 cvj Sat, 16 Aug 2008 05:58:49 +0000 http://www.quezon.ph/?p=1950#comment-915948 <blockquote>the parties present will activate the override in the presence of everybody else except the one party which defaulted. - jcc</blockquote> That 'override' is just another key so somebody will have to know that 'override' and that someone would again be the weak link. <blockquote>what do you mean by “software based encryption do not work?” are you claiming you can crack triple-DES? how about rijndael? the NSA needs a supercomputer farm to crack old algorithms. there is nobody in the industry even claiming current cryptosystems are insecure. what were you thinking? - mindanaoan</blockquote> As i was telling jcc, you don't even have to go to that extent of using technology to crack the key. All you have to do is get to the person who knows the key (or their families and loved ones). =========================== Anyway, this whole conversation involving keys is secondary because the security (and integrity) of the Electoral System is *not* based on methods of <i>keeping information secret </i> (which are what keys are for). Quite the opposite, its security (and integrity) is based on transparency, i.e. having as many people know the results as early as possible with the assurance that these results can be traced back to verifiable precinct level counts (and not to some backroom <i>wholesale</i> cheating operation). This way will you have the means to cross-check results. The principle is similar to the Open Source Computing mantra, <i>"Given enough eyeballs, all bugs are shallow.''</i>. Given enough people watching, all cheating operations are shallow. Eliminating the step of conducting a precinct-level count drastically reduces the number of 'eyeballs' which means a bigger opportunity to facilitate cheating operations either by exploiting flaws in technology, process or people.

the parties present will activate the override in the presence of everybody else except the one party which defaulted. – jcc

That ‘override’ is just another key so somebody will have to know that ‘override’ and that someone would again be the weak link.

what do you mean by “software based encryption do not work?” are you claiming you can crack triple-DES? how about rijndael? the NSA needs a supercomputer farm to crack old algorithms. there is nobody in the industry even claiming current cryptosystems are insecure. what were you thinking? – mindanaoan

As i was telling jcc, you don’t even have to go to that extent of using technology to crack the key. All you have to do is get to the person who knows the key (or their families and loved ones).

===========================

Anyway, this whole conversation involving keys is secondary because the security (and integrity) of the Electoral System is *not* based on methods of keeping information secret (which are what keys are for).

Quite the opposite, its security (and integrity) is based on transparency, i.e. having as many people know the results as early as possible with the assurance that these results can be traced back to verifiable precinct level counts (and not to some backroom wholesale cheating operation). This way will you have the means to cross-check results.

The principle is similar to the Open Source Computing mantra, “Given enough eyeballs, all bugs are shallow.”. Given enough people watching, all cheating operations are shallow. Eliminating the step of conducting a precinct-level count drastically reduces the number of ‘eyeballs’ which means a bigger opportunity to facilitate cheating operations either by exploiting flaws in technology, process or people.

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