The Original Sin and the Continuing Crime
My column for today is Cory, Erap, Binay, Noli, Satur and J-Lo, which discusses the question of whether united front politics have any value at this time (a very observant peek at the administration’s coalition building was in Patricia Evangelista’s Sunday column, Gangs of Manila). In my column, I point to Hello, Garci as the Original Sin and the abduction of Jun Lozada as the Continuing Crime (see Reflections on the Bangsa Moro here and here).
Concerning the Original Sin, it’s frustrating to me that much of the refusal to take the issue seriously comes from the childish argument “they all cheat anyway,” which, even if true, is beside the point: a generalization is as nothing when confronted by a specific case of someone caught.
Anyway, it also frustrates me that people insist there is no evidence, or that what evidence is hearsay, only. For their part, supporters of the late Fernando Poe, Jr. have been doing a thorough study of the fraud in the 2004 elections, and doing so, mind you, without attracting publicity or calling attention to themselves. Generally, their efforts have identified the fraud as having had three phases:
1. The disenfranchisement of voters in areas that were opposition-inclined, and the increase of voters in administration bailiwicks.
2. The systematic padding and shaving of votes, particularly in Luzon and the Visayas, to preserve the expected percentages of the candidates but which would result, over-all, in decreasing opposition votes and shifting those votes to the administration.
3. An emergency, in many ways, ad-hoc effort to secure a winning margin of votes after the results of voting in Luzon and the Visayas showed that the first two phases still hadn’t managed to obtain a winning margin for the President; in the emergency operation in Mindanao, the President micromanaged the effort, which was clumsily undertaken, and the first to be exposed.
The research of the FPJ supporters took two years to undetake, particularly because phases 1 and 2 were quite sophisticated. But they cracked the system and I’ve been nagging them to circulate their findings so the public can study their arguments. Finally, they’ve begun doing so and here’s the first of several PowerPoint presentations you can download, study, and dissect (and rebut, if you wish).
Here it is, examining phases 1 and 2 of the 2004 cheating: 2004 Electoral Fraud PPT Presentation 1 (click the PCIBChartsData12.ppt link)
Yesterday’s Inquirer editorial called the administration Spratley’s policy a Slithering policy.
As I mentioned in my entry Today the Spratlys, tomorrow Palawan (updated) , it’s well worth reviewing our Constitution. I’d referred to the relevant article before, but not the crucial last sentence which I’ve highlighted, see this extract from Article 12: National Economy and Patrimony:
SEC 1. The goals of the national economy are a more equitable distribution of opportunities, income, and wealth; a sustained increase in the amount of goods and services produced by the nation for the benefit of the people; and an expanding productivity as the key raising the quality of life for all, especially the underprivileged.
The State shall promote industrialization and full employment based on sound agricultural development and agrarian reform, through industries that make full and efficient use of human and natural resources, and which are competitive in both domestic and foreign markets. However, the State shall protect Filipino enterprises against unfair foreign competition and trade practices.
In the pursuit of these goals, all sectors of the economy and all regions of the country shall be given optimum opportunity to develop. Private enterprises, including corporations, cooperatives, and similar collective organizations, shall be encouraged to broaden the base of their ownership.
SEC. 2. All lands of the public domain, waters, minerals, coal, petroleum, and other mineral oils, all forces of potential energy, fisheries, forests or timber, wildlife, flora and fauna, and other natural resources are owned by the State. With the exception of agricultural lands, all other natural resources shall not be alienated. The exploration, development, and utilization of natural resources shall be under the full control and supervision of the State. The State may directly undertake such activities, or it may enter into co-production, joint venture, or production-sharing agreements with Filipino citizens, or corporations or associations at least sixty per centum of whose capital is owned by such citizens. Such agreements may be for a period not exceeding twenty-five years, renewable for not more than twenty-five years, and under such terms and conditions as may be provided by law. In cases of water rights for irrigation, water supply, fisheries, or industrial uses other than the development of water power, beneficial use may be the measure and limit of the grant.
The State shall protect the nation’s marine wealth in its archipelagic waters, territorial sea, and exclusive economic zone, and reserve its use and enjoyment exclusively to Filipino citizens.
The Congress may, by law, allow small-scale utilization of natural resources by Filipino citizens, as well as cooperative fish farming, with priority to subsistence fishermen and fishworkers in rivers, lakes, bays, and lagoons.
The President may enter into agreements with foreign-owned corporations involving either technical of financial assistance for large-scale exploration, development, and utilization of minerals, petroleum, and other mineral oils according to the general terms and conditions provided by law, based on real contributions to the economic growth and general welfare of the country. In such agreements, the State shall promote the development and use of local scientific and technical resources.
The President shall notify the Congress of every contract entered into in accordance with this provision, within thirty days from its execution.
The Secretary of Justice says he read the agreement and that nothing in it violates the Constitution. As far as his statement goes, he is correct. But as Carandang suggests below, it’s what the President did, after the agreement was signed, that could open up Constitutional questions. If the Constitution requires the President to inform Congress of any contract, then the question is, did she inform Congress? The contract itself pledges the parties to secrecy, except for authorized government agencies, clearly adhering to our own Constitution requirements; but did the President then comply?
In his entry yesterday, Ricky Carandang continues his ongoing investigations into what, really, the Spratleys deal is all about, and its potential infirmities, constitutionally and otherwise. It was an effort to wiggle out of constitutional requirements by calling a spade a preliminary earth-moving device:
Note that the President is allowed to enter into agreements with foreign corporations to explore for oil, provided this is done in accordance with the law and provided Congress is notified of the agreements within 30 days of its execution.
Congress was never notified of the agreement and the Palace had no intention of doing so. In fact, the agreement has never been released to the public. So how did the Palace lawyers get around this?
By simply referring to the agreement as a pre-exploration activity.
The palace geniuses and their allies pushing for the deal argued that by labelling the seismic study as a pre-exploration activity, it did not constitute exploration per se, and therefore they had no obligation to notify Congress. But others raised the issue that seismic mapping was in fact already part of the process of exploration. In their eagerness to sign the deal, they said by simply referring to it as a pre-exploration agreement that would be enough to circumvent the constitution. The problem is simply declaring it as pre-exploration doesn’t necessarily make it so. But that’s why the text of the agreement refers to it as a pre-exploration activity. And that’s why the [Palace] press release above made it a point to say that the agreement was not an exploration agreement, but merely a study.
The problem is that any oil industry expert will tell you that seismic mapping is in fact, part and parcel of exploration activity. In the oil exploration business, pre-exploration activity consists of mostly of studying the regulations, lining up the financing, and obtaining the licenses and the other government approvals necessary to begin exploration. Again, don’t take my word for it. Do the research. Talk to oil industry experts. Google “oil exploration†or “seismic exploration†and you’ll see ample literature out there on seismic studies and how they constitute part of exploration.
Case in point: In 2002 the Department of Energy granted an oil exploration company called Forum Energy a license to explore for oil and gas in the Reed bank of Western Palawan. The license was called Geophysical Survey and Exploration Contract (GSEC) 101. A GSEC, as its name implies, is a license to explore for oil or gas in our territorial waters. As you can see, seismic surveys are part and parcel of exploration activities. Their exploration gave them enough reason to believe that GSEC 101 contained oil and gas in commerical quantities, so Forum applied to convert their GSEC into a Service Contract (SC). Normally, having given a company a GSEC, the DOE would grant the SC as a matter of course. After all, if you let them explore, you would also let them drill. But unexpetedly, te DOE balked at convefting Forum’s GSEC into a SC, something that almost never happens.
The problem with Forum was that after the Philippines and China (and later Vietnam), signed the Spratly deal the Chinese government began to apply pressure on the Philippine government not to convert Forum’s GSEC into a SC, because GSEC 101 was part of the area included in the joint exploration deal. In asserting its rights under the Spratly deal, China is now questioning the granting of exploration licenses in an area where we were already granting drilling licenses to private companies. As far as I know, China did not contest the granting of the GSEC to Forum in 2002, but the Spratly deal has emboldened China to do that now. Forum saw the writing on the wall and sold its stake in GSEC 101 to Monte Oro Resources and Energy, a local firm partly owned by Walter Brown of Philex and and reportedly, Enrique Razon of ICTSI (yes, there’s a story here which I will save for a later date).
As we can see from this example, the Spratly deal has already weakened our claim on certain territories we claim as our own, like Palawan.
In view of the preceding sentence, see RP knew Spratlys exploration ‘too close’ to Palawan. See also 6 Philippine-occupied islands covered in Spratly agreements. As with all the ongoing scandals, the net keeps catching more than the usual flotsam and jetsam: De Venecias, Razon behind oil, gas extraction by UK firm. The only question is, as Senate to start new probe on Spratlys exploration, is, will it serve as a distraction from the NBN-ZTE deal? Perhaps not, as it’s all related, anyway.
And as usual, it’s the behavior of the Palace that validates the old saying that where there’s smoke, there’s fire. Instead of asserting that its embarked on a visionary initiative, the Palace’s reaction is to duck responsibility: Spratlys project put on hold as Chinese ODA mess rages. And not only ducking, but it’s trying to pass the buck: Palace: Let De Venecia explain Spratlys deal. But the problem with this is that if the ex-Speaker acted as the broker, his brokering the deal required presidential approval. The Palace is probably calculating that de Venecia will not want to incriminate himself and so, won’t incriminate the Palace. And others who may be considered collateral damage in the deal, won’t spill the beans either: Mañalac knows more than Spratlys deal: The hotshot geologist was fired for allegedly blocking Palace interest. But by all accounts, even if summoned to the Senate, he won’t talk beyond confirming that the contract he signed was, to the best of his knowledge, constitutionally-sound (and as I’ve pointed out, probably so, up to the point of signing but not thereafter).
The Palace itself has acknowledged what’s at stake: Gonzalez: 3 trillion cubic feet of gas at stake in Spratly deal.
For reference, since Text of Spratlys agreement disappears from DFA site (sourced from Newsbreak):
Agreement-Bilateral Marine Seismic Undertaking.pdf.
and
Tripartite Agreement-Marine Scientific Research.pdf.
As for what seismic exploration is, it’s explained in NaturalGas.org. See also the Encyclopedia of Earth entry. Greenpeace states, unambiguously, that seismic exploration is “the first stage of oil and gas exploitation in an ocean area.” How everything comes together can be gathered by looking at the processes (and incentives) granted by the Nigerian National Petroleum Corporation:
The investment opportunities in the downstream are many. Some of them are:
Refining, Petrochemicals and Gas Utilization
In order to reduce the investors’ risk, speculative seismic data acquisition is carried out in the deep offshore using the services of reputable data acquisition companies. In the inland area, there is direct involvement in exploration activities.
For his part, Mon Casiple says one problem is that there are oppositionists more interested in dribbling the ball than in going for the game-winning three-point shot:
In the meantime, the Senate plans to continue the hearings–possibly with new witnesses–amidst a spreading and more organized public campaign against the Arroyo administration. This maintains pressure on the president while avoiding an immediate decisive confrontation that forces a GMA resignation.
A prolonged crisis scenario without a decisive ending favors those who do not want GMA to resign immediately and therefore usher in a Noli de Castro presidency. If the crisis does not force their hand, they would want to prolong things and bask in the priceless public fascination with the scandal.
What I think we have here is a dribbling of the ball. Meantime, there are unforeseen consequences–not the least of which is a possible polarization of the situation.
The ultimate futility, politically speaking, of arguing that the economy is doing well to justify turning a blind eye to official corruption,is exposed by Amando Doronila in ADB report links RP corruption to investment dip (here is the ADB paper he commented on:critical-dev-constraints.pdf.) The futility of that argument is further demonstrated by the results of parliamentary elections in Malaysia. No one can doubt that the ruling party had put in place an economic policy resulting in growth. But along with inflation, it was the issue of crime, including allegations of widening official corruption, that forced the Prime Minister to call for early elections and the elections resulted in the defeat of the ruling party -the first since 1967. See Malaysia’s Leaders Suffer Setback in Time.com, and Malaysia’s ruling coalition suffers stunning blow Malaysia’s ruling coalition suffers stunning blow and Shock election result for Malaysia’s ruling party in the Financial Times. Incidentally, t seems a blogger, Jeff Ooi, has also been elected as an opposition MP!
People interested in questions of autonomy might want to take a look at The coming pain in Spain in The Economist, which discusses the reasons why Spain’s ruling party faces a tough time at the polls.The problems of bureaucratic reforms is also tackled in another Economist article, What’s holding India back?
In All Roads Lead to Rove, Slate’s Dahlia Lithwick looks at a book by one of the attorneys fired for partisan political reasons by the Republicans, an issue the writer says was raised “some zealous congressional oversight and award-winning journalistic coverage” by a blogger. The question of executive privilege has also been raised in the United States, particularly as the present American administration keeps mutating its definition:
As Mukasey has argued and Jonathan Turley has decoded, the Bush administration formulation of executive privilege constitutes a perfect legal möbius strip: “[L]awyers cannot commit crimes when they act under the orders of a presidentâ€â€and a president cannot commit a crime when he acts under advice of lawyers.”
In Questionable privilege? Alex Pabico of the PCIJ introduces readers to Executive Privilege Versus Public Interest by Atty. Nepomuceno Malaluan, which provides an exhaustive overview of executive privilege issues that have arisen in the Senate. In his column today, Fr. Joaquin Bernas, S.J. dissects the proposed compromise peddled by the Supreme Court in Anatomy of a rejected compromise.
Starting at midnight tonight, there will be a major transport strike: Provincial bus operators to join strike; government fielding free transport. The cost of oil is just one of the bread-and-butter issues of which every government has a horror: today’s Inquirer editorial calls it a Food emergency. See Prices of rice seen high in all of 2008 and RP, others hurting as rice price skyrocket and DTI heeds flour millers’ appeal, but . . . and
And in another triumph of the rule of law, Imelda not guilty of dollar salting.
Hi Mlq3,
About original sin,I have read yor fellow columnist Conrado deQuiros, questioning whatever happened to it.
My opinion is to many can of worms opened.
For what it is worth,sa tingin ko sa October pwede na gamitin ang mga worms na yun in other ways than for fishing.
October nga ba yung Pulido impeachment.
Imo, sa tingin ko nasa move na ito ni JDV at ilan mahhuhugot nya to have 70 votes for impeachmnet.
Regarding JDV, I am of the same thought that he’s too dirty (like Chavit?) to be able to smear Gloria without hurting himself.
President Gloria Pidal announced today several major cabinet appointments. According to Palace sources,who have requested anonymity,this strategic move is intended to placate critics who have complained about the dire lack of men and women of probity in her Cabinet.
The new appointees,all with cabinet rank,are:
1)Former General Jovito Palparan: Secretary of Human Rights
2) Senator Lito Lapid:Secretary of Education
3)Imelda Marcos: Ambassador To Switzerland
4)Senator Bong Revilla:Department of Public Highways
5)Senator Joker Arroyo:Secretary of Youth Affairs.
6)Senator Juan Ponce Enrile:Secretary of Religious Affairs
7)Chairman Romy Ner:Truth Commission
9)Ex-Comelec Commissioner Garcillano: Presidential Adviser on Electoral Reforms
10)Senator Miguel Zubiri:Presidential Adviser for Maguindanao.
I wonder if anybody else is having trouble opening the PCIB Charts – Data 12.ppt? I clicked on the link and I get an empty powerpoint file.
Same here Jeg. It says the file does not exist.
Thanks, cvj. Akala ko ako lang e.
The noose tightens. There is probable cause to pursue a charge of culpable violation of the constitution in both ZTE and Spratley deals (they seem to be connected), but we’ll need the Reps in the House to step up. “My loyalty to the party ends where my loyalty to the country begins.” I wonder who has the balls to think like that in the House.
(I just had a thought: does Noli realize he’s been screwed of the presidency? If FPJ won, then he should be president right now.)
Mr. Quezon, the argument that “they are all cheating anyway” is as ridiculous as Lozada’s argument that there are “permissible” or “tolerable” limits of corruption. We are an absurd people . . .
Same here, I downloaded empty file.
Mlq3,
Jeg and CVJ are correct,maybe you can re upload it,later.
Thanks.
No doubt the disenchantment of those, who to this day, uphold some kind of legitimacy for Edsa Dos are forced to locate the “Original Sin” in the Hello Garci Scandal, since they deem everything that happened before 2004 as more or less acceptable to them. Yet, do you not see Manolo, that it is in failing to repudiate the faithlessness of Edsa Dos to the deepest democratic understandings of the ordinary Filipinos AND even of the Elites, that cynicism actually arose for both? The liberal fascists of 2001 still do not care that they violated the social contract, not realizing that that is why they can no more re-enlist the masses in their liberal moralisms. Our elites are failures for not being able to accept the people’s choice in Erap. And now that they are no longer happy with the result of the regime change, they cannot bring themselves to say sorry for 2001.
BTW, it was supposed to be Paradise before the Original Sin. Was it, before Garci? For whom?
i don’t know why link went screwy. uploaded it instead to archive.org. hopefully y’all can access it now.
djb, that would be revisionism.
http://politicaljunkie.blogspot.com/2008/02/new-contest-name-that-author.html
Mlq3,
Thanks for re-uploading it.
I saved it and will view it in deatail later.
**** “Original Sin” of INXS plays ****
if Hello Garci is the original sin, then all politicians mentioned in the tapes should be equally guilty, not just gloria.
Jun Lozada is also the continuing crime, for those who consider him a paid witness. a continuing crime that started also with hello garci (for the other politicians)
hey there’s a one to one correspondence! gloria and the opposition are in pari delicto
scalia, culpability as accomplices, yes, but there was only one position that the cheating was engineered to secure, and only one beneficiary of that cheating.
I suppose the seeming revisionism is because of DJB’s transition from traditional conservatism to neo-conservatism; from ‘dont trust the institutions of government’ to ‘trust the institutions of government’.
It is a fundamental democratic principle that sovereignty resides in the people. One-man-one-vote, never was a fundamental democratic principle, but instead is a democratic expedient, a concession. The so-called liberal fascists that ‘violated the social contract’ couldnt have done so because the contract itself was rendered void when the government, as the text quoted by Philippine Politics 04 linked in MLQ3′s comment above, became a ‘vast criminal enterprise’. The people sought to establish a new one, but unfortunately it was hijacked by the government itself: GMA, the SC, and the military. IMO and Im speculating here, if after the upheavals of 2001, the impeachment trial was continued, Erap wouldve been acquitted — maybe — but he wouldnt have continued to be a crook after that.
Yes, the GMA lynch mob can be counted on returning to the Garci tapes when all else fails.
Those tapes, which supposedly took over a year to “surface” are the real deal…but the Lozada/JDV3 tapes are fake. Why didn’t the compilers ever release the originals…which would have jailed GMA in two seconds flat? Believing in multiply-edited tapes is just plain foolish.
Evidence? Open the ballot boxes! What were the PET results? Nada. Zero. Zip. Oh, says Legarda, there was cheating…we just couldn’t raise the money to really, really pursue the case. Huh? The opposition would not chip in any cash? Really? And the cost for running for senator is many times more? hmmmm….. Stop! Don’t complicate things. GMA cheated cuz we all say so.
Now you say that the opposition has new, strong evidence??? But you need to “nag” them to release it to the public? Huh. You’d think they’d have some interest in showing us all the proof we have been promised for almost 3 years.
If the Garci Tapes was the Original Sin, it’s because that was the starting point for a fraudulent Search For The Truth campaign. There are universal methods to discovering “truth”, and they aren’t being followed. Never were.
The Original Sin? Maybe djb is right — The disregard for due process in EDSA 2.
The Continuing Crime? Using untruthful people and unjust means in order to establish the “truth”…a truth as defined by a forceful minority.
DJB,
I read John Marzan’s blog,if it is revisionism, it is normal sa takbo ng buhay ng tao. when the folks questioned your views when you were 18 or 19,(u know what I’m talking abt),naintindihan kita na iba noon iba ngayon. But I could not imagine you citing liberal fascism and disenchantment as if you never had that documented random thought just a few years back; not more than thirty or so years when you were 18 or 19.
Is it still iba noon,iba ngayon?
Geo, if I remember correctly, the electoral fraud case was prematurely terminated on a technicality. The SC incredibly ruled that Susan Roces had no legal personality to pursue the case after FPJ died. As if electoral fraud had FPJ alone as a victim and not the Filipino people.
re: Justice Secretary’s Opinion
Why do we even bother listening to the first Justice Secretary in the world who has not a single functional brain cell?
Yes, but wasn’t the case Loren filed vs. Noli decided with finality? And didn’t that case use the same election returns?
If even the SC found nothing wrong with the results for Noli… how could discrepancies with Gloria’s votes not go unnoticed?
Not defending Gloria here, ok? Just asking a question.
Btw, I hope everybody remembers how the Canvassing happened back in 2004. Remember who defended Gloria’s vote then?
geo, you insist on viewing the opposition as monolithic, which it isn’t. the colossus is being built by the president.
fpj died. a small group of his supporters were pursuing the evidence. it takes time. and they’re understandably loath to get into the limelight at a time when they’re discouraged over official hostility and public indifference.
the originals of the tapes are with isafp. you can ask ed ermita why his taping project won’t be released in full, to implicate everyone as you wish, or perhaps it’s because his principal would be caught in the net too?
Equalizer,
Those proposed new appointees, with cabinet rank, are just awful; but just as it was meant to be tongue-in-cheek, there would be those who would consider such set-up if this government weren’t only getting cautious with their growing unpopularity.
Got it, thanks Manolo! Looking at the PCIB Powerpoint slides, the pattern of improbable votes for GMA is similar as what Zubiri got in Maguindanao courtesy of Bedol (except for Pagulangan owing to Musa Dimasidsing’s sacrifice).
Pro-corruption groups thought that because Gloria got away with her shenanigans in the past that her deeds and that of her allies will just these will be forgotten, “go away” and just “move on”. Just as some people think that because Imelda was acquitted of 30+ charges of dollar salting that her corrupt deeds are forgotten.
“It is a fundamental democratic principle that sovereignty resides in the people. One-man-one-vote, never was a fundamental democratic principle, but instead is a democratic expedient, a concession. The so-called liberal fascists that ‘violated the social contract’ couldnt have done so because the contract itself was rendered void when the government, as the text quoted by Philippine Politics 04 linked in MLQ3’s comment above, became a ‘vast criminal enterprise’.” — Jeg
I am a little shocked with this comment Jeg. Democratic expedient? Pray tell me, how so? Where is that stated in our constitution? One-man, one-vote is the very operational meaning of democracy in action. When in a situation when two candidates have almost equal votes, the position goes to one who has the more votes, EVEN IF IT IS ONLY BY ONE VOTE. So gosh, one-man, one vote is the very principle that upholds democracy and makes it legitimate to the contending parties in a diverse society. Or have we forgotten that we do not have an electoral college like the US? So what liberal fascists fancy themselves as the de-facto electoral college, even when the popular vote is screwed in the first place.
The original sin, if ever there was such a thing was planted in 2001 when the elite conspired to oust Estrada. The original sin in the bible was not when Cain slew his brother Abel, but when Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit — the forbidden fruit in 2001 was power that the few who partook of it and in so doing trampled on the rights of the millions who voted Estrada into office.
Garci in 2004 is the continuing sin. Lozada? maybe part of the New Testament who’s drama is that of “I am a sinner, but I repent”. The Road to Damascus has not yet been traversed by most of our elite, that’s for sure. When that happens, then perhaps we will have a genuine People Power III, less dramatic than Edsa Uno, but none of the betrayal of Edsa Dos.
Garci in 2004 is the continuing sin. — sorry, should read
“Garci in 2004 is the continuing crime.”
mlq3,
I see that the opposition is anything but a monolithic bloc. That’s what makes things worse — various groups are willing to force a change in government with no clue — and no agreement — as to what to do afterwards. No, not a monolith; a mob.
It’s not a colossus either. It’s a minority.
Why didn’t the opposition go full out on Legarda’s re-count? Why would fpj people need to do all of this work when they could just count the VP votes? Meanwhile, is the public “indifferent” or part of a GMA-created “colossus”???
No, the opposition’s total disregard to pursuing this avenue has always seemed very suspicious to me. And the SC’s review in favor of Noli makes the cheating claims ring hollow. If anything the proof has favored the accused’s side.
ISAPF has the tapes? Really? Was it Ermita who made that compilation then? Then what — he gave the set to the opposition? Or is it that an agent sat there for hundreds of hours editing and compiling…while no one noticed? And then he snuck the tapes out. Ohhhhhh………
Don’t get me wrong, mlq3. I can’t say with certainty that GMA cheated. But I can say for certain that there is very weak and questionable indications that she did. Here we are three years later and things haven’t changed much.
Now, if your goal is to improve things, I’m with you. I agree that there are many ills. But the bastardization of truth is not a good remedy or approach. Of that, I’m sure.
One-man, one-vote is the very operational meaning of democracy in action.
Representative democracy is an expedient, a necessary evil if you will. The founders of the American experiment which we are trying hard to copy noted that electing representatives was a double edged sword in that these representatives might turn out to be lords and masters over the people. I guess that’s why the US constitution has the second amendment.
The pure, unadulterated democracy is direct democracy. But even here, the people are represented by their leaders. But in direct democracy, the leaders are their true representatives. Our constitution tries to capture this through the party list, which still has kinks, but is a step in the right direction, IMO.
People forgot the “truths” of Gloria, Bunye, Garci, et al. Well some wants to forget it that’s for sure.
Sarap talaga ng Rule of Law ng gubyernong to, pinalusot si Imeldific Marcos.
I remember what you wrote in the comments section of one of Ricky Carandang’s earlier entries (since deleted). You said that Gloria only talked to Garci (and the COMELEC) because she wanted to protect her votes from the real cheaters who is one of those politicians (you were too scared to name). Do you still believe that?
Now without many noticing it Imelda is slowly getting out of her corruption bind. With this example, can anyone still believe that real justice on corruption in the Philippines be truly implemented? The oligarchic syndicracy clique wend their evil ways. The Rule of Law has been bastardized and became the Rule of the Few.
Sarap ng may Bilyon bilyong pera na galing sa amin at kapwa kong Pilipino ano … sarap sarap talagang magnakaw at kumapit na parang linta sa posisyon. Nawa kung anong ginawa niyo, ang tamang kabayaran ang nararapat sa inyo. Karmahin kayo at inyong mga galamay.
Demonyo pinalusot kapwa demonyo
The Garci Tapes are not primarily about electoral fraud!
They are about the continuing crime against national security that the existence of illegal wiretapping represents.
After the Supreme Court ruled with finality that GMA has won the elections, there really wasn’t a better strategy for punishing her than to pursue the national security violations angle. Which, according to the Anti Wiretapping law are continuing crimes (possession of mother of all tapes, for example). The original crime of which the Garci tapes are direct physical evidence is violation of Section 1 of RA4200: illegal wiretapping of the President and a Comelec commissioner, both Constitutional, impeachable officers.
My concern when I was 18 was Liberty. It still is, I don’t know why. In this I have always been consistent.
My views on Edsa Dos were shaped by my discovery of Artemio Panganiban’s book and the TRUE STORY of what happened and how, at Edsa Dos.
The real revisionism was done by the liberal fascists. I’ve always been faithful to the truth as I’ve construed it, always bearing in mind how wrong we sometimes can be!
I agree with Madonna that one-man, one vote is “the very operational meaning of democracy in action“. If i didn’t value ‘one-man, one-vote’, then i would have accepted Gloria’s apology back in 2005. After all, she was my choice. I’d even help Geo with his mental gymnastics.
However, i also agree with Jeg that direct democracy is more genuine (aka ‘pure and unadulterated’). Even in an ideal scenario where you have a President who is legitimate, the fact remains that elections only happen at a point in time. For the Presidency, it only happens once every six years. In between elections, there may be times when we do not agree with our elected representatives even in an ideal case where they are honest and well-intentioned. When this happens, a failure of representation occurs. If this happens frequently enough, then you have a failure of democracy.
That’s why representative democracy needs to be supplemented with direct democracy, of which People Power is an extreme manifestation. Each form of democracy has its advantages and disadvantages. Representative democracy (when elections are honest) has the advantage of greater franchise (because of one-man, one-vote), but operationally lacks the authenticity of Direct Democracy. Direct Democracy may, at times, be unclear as to franchise but has greater authenticity because it comes from the source i.e. the People (as opposed to the proxies).
Someday, technology will allow the people to vote for policies just as easily as we vote for our choices in American Idol which will solve the ‘franchise’ issue. In the meantime, we have to accommodate the limitations of each.
Kabayan,
Dba ang sabi mga foreign loans yung mga ninakaw nina marcos? Tapos pwede naman i default ni Cory noon pero hindi ginawa ni cory? sino ngayon ang me kasalanan sa pagkakautang natin kung pwede naman palang i return to 0?
next,
Mas gugustuhin ko pang magpapalit palit tayo ng presidente kesa naka tanga lang tayo sa bahay habang minumura ang nakaupo pero wala naman tayong ginagawa. Baka sakali next time makakuha na tayo nang matino.
Diba yan ang essence ng demokrasya, the will of the people? na ang kung ano ang gusto ng nakakarami e sya ang dapat nasusunod? Sige daanin natin sa Rule of the Law diba NAKITA NYO NAMAN NA NUNG MAG FILE NG IMPEACHMENT NATALO DAHIL SA KAALYADO NG PANGULO? o tanga na lang yung naniniwala dun at magsasabing well ganun talaga ang proseso eh kahit me ebidensya na?
Isa pang tanong, paano naatim kaya ng mga pro gloria na galing sa magnanakaw ang pinangpapakain nila sa mga anak nila?
Question
Naniniwala ba talaga kayo na me kakayahan tayong pumili kung sino man ang tongressman na maihahalal?
Tulad sa probinsya, Same shit different first name diba?
Naalala ko nun tumakbo ang isa sa mga kamag anak ko bilang tongressman natalo kahit ang record nya e super duper clean at halos lahat ng mga tao sa probinsya namin e sa kanya tumatakbo pag me kaso sila at libre ang singil nya. Tapos me pa welga welga pa ang mga tao para lang tumakbo at ang ending natalo sya ng hinga ng malalim 500 votes.
Naalala ko din inabot ng 3 years yung kaso sa comelec. tapos naging moot and academic na daw nung nagsimula na ang eleksyon.
Amazing diba? paano pa natin masasabi na representative of the people ang mga congressmen?
The claim that Erap had turned the govt into “a vast criminal enterprise” and that this justifies the junking of the Constitution by Davide and the Fascists, is a vast rationalisation, considering how much vaster the criminal enterprise of his replacement turned out to be.
Because the principal check and balance against a rogue President, which is none other than the Senate, had been demolished by the Supreme Court in 2001, the Chief Executive indeed became capable of that far vaster criminal enterprise we now see.
How much did Erap steal? 2-4 billion in the Jose Velarde Account you say? Heck the 6.5 billion peso ZTE kickback alone is more than that.
Erap’s was a kanto boy criminal enterprise. It was the de classe quality of that which got him kicked out. That’s all!
Kamote,
Kailangan talaga, ngayon pa lang nag-oorganisa at pinapamulat na sa mamamayan itong sindikatong mayayaman sa namumuno sa ating pulitika. Lakas-KAMPI merger na raw, at least nag-ipon na ang mga demonyo, di katulad dati, nakakalat at mahirap tirisin ang mga ipis.(Pasensya na lang sa mga ipis, ikompara sa mga Tongressman na ito, matino pa kayo)
Nagtitipon na ang mga demonyo, dapat magtipon na rin ang susugpo sa mga karera at impluwensiya nitong mga magnanakaw at gahaman sa kapangyarihan.
cvj,
I think she at least tried to protect her votes. I think a bunch of politicians do that everytime. Some pay to fix the votes. I don’t know who has or hasn’t.
I think there are many indications that the tapes are “fake”. If so, I have an idea who did it. I am scared enough to not name names.
In those days, cvj, I was also stressing that the PET/Legarda recount should be the end-all. Look what happened with that.
So yeah, I think building the “oust GMA” campaign on Garci is the equivalent of building on quicksand. The fact that mlq3 refers to it as “The Original Sin” is troubling. I feel it reflects the overall problem in media today — the lack of distinction between opinion and reportable facts…or maybe we can say: the disregard of journalism’s own rules of conduct.
Kamote,
Maganda sana na i-default ni Cory ang Marcos loans kaya lang titirahin tayo ng trade sanctions. Magiging parang Cuba tayo. No choice, dapat talagang habulin ang unang demonyo na ginawang institusyon ang kurapsyon.
Ngayon balak sana ibalik ni Gloria ang lumang technique, kaya lang nahirapan na siya dahil alam na ang istilo ni Macoy, nagka-utak ang maraming Pilipino. Kaya banggaan talaga ito ngayon sa pagitan ng mga demonyong kurakot sa pamahalaan katunggali ang Pilipinong sawa na sa mga tarantadong mga kurakot na elitistang na ito.
Yes and some consider government media “reputable”, what a laugh.
That’s why representative democracy needs to be supplemented with direct democracy, of which People Power is an extreme manifestation – cvj
Even the Greek inventors of democracy decided that direct democracy was unwieldy and cumbersome. The city-state of Athens selected the council of 500 citizens to govern.
I’m not sure why you should be so scared of Eddie Villanueva. Seriously…i listened to the tapes and the term ‘protect‘ does not do justice to what GMA did. Election Cheating is not a harmless crime as the case of Musa Dimasidsing shows. We’re seeing the fruits of that original sin, among other things, in NBN-ZTE which is payback to Abalos.
Even direct democracy in Athens becomes relevant if these 500 governing citizens becomes severely corrupt and abusive.
I guess the first small yet telling sin of Gloria was that when she publicly declared that she would not run for Presidency again and later did an about face on her word. The foundation of lying has been established and in a big public way at that. Later, lying to the Filipinos became easier.
A number of things have happened over the intervening 2,000 thousand years that makes the concept of Direct Democracy both more feasible, and more necessary.
cvj,
can you give us an example of a real DIRECT DEMOCRACY in history? Any time after Adam and Eve’s family got to be more than 20 people or so will do.
cvj said,
Increasingly that is coming closer to reality at this rapidly advancing age of information technology.
DJB,
Thanks for the clarification, I know we are only human and I know you have been consistent about liberty. You have discussed with me the importance of memes,Dean and; indeed they are important.
Let me take a look at abstracts of Goldberg’s “liberal fascism “so I can at least relate to what you are driving at.
please disregard the redundant ‘thousand’ above. sorry.
i think “direct democracy” “supplementing” a real representative democracy has another name: fascism.
Only in this day and age is when the real possibility of direct democracy is coming to the fore. The technology of cellphones and texting is still what I consider as “infant” information transfer technology. Eventually this will improve, barring any worldwide catastrophic calamity.
Right now we are engaged in what was considered only several decades before as “impossible” and now here we are doing real time discussions and even being a used as a basis for policy formation.
In our hands actually destroys old paradigms due to advances in technology. As such some concepts have gone to the age of the dinosaurs.
DJB, among the successful examples, you have Gandhi’s satyagraha against the British. More recently, You have the collapse of the Berlin Wall in 1989 and related events (both before and after). Those involved more than twenty people.
Among the unsuccessful examples, Tiananmen, and the march of the Burmese monks last year. Also more than twenty people.
cvj,
You act and argue as an intellectual, an apt term for you.
But when you (granted, like many, many others; I’m in the minority on this) say that you’ve “listened to the tapes and therefore know a, b and c”, I cringe. How anyone can just accept that stuff at face value? I sometimes suspect willingful blindness.
Yeah, maybe I’m the one who is blind. But then again, there’s a reason why the law requires certain bare minimums of criteria for determining evidence or fact. There’s a reason why science requires such.
I don’t claim to know the truth. You do. The facts don’t support your claim. This is your problem…even though you and others keep trying to make it mine.
Kabayan, i agree that technology plays a part in enabling direct democracy. IMHO, more important is the way Modern Society is organized, i.e. functionally rather than hierarchically. A functioning society is now composed of specialists and generalists. There is no more room for elitists.
Geo, in matters involving the truth, i am wary of the side that sounds more like Pontius Pilate.
It is the tendency of those who have become “comfortable” with the status quo that fears any change even if the change itself stamps out bad systems. That is the way it is, like a virus evil evolves in forms and tries to adapt its ways to exploit a government system. Later the nation gets “sick”. When an anti-virus is injected, a battle then rages and the body gets uncomfortable for a while but eventually gets well.
As with our nation, we simply give it “pain relievers” but the virus itself in not neutralized. Hence people sick and tired of these “virus” attached in government must truly oust them and implement a continuing system of vigilance and education so that those who replace them will never used these positions in such an abusive way again.
cvj,
True a functional heirachy is more apt for this day and age. Before tiers of representatives were necessary. Now, these tiers can be greatly reduced, some projections used for decision making can even be replaced by AI programs. The old heavily tiered representatives have become unwieldy due to the volume of people and the way the petitions are processed still use the old ways which representatives have become accustomed with.
kabayan,
i can imagine no greater evil than a direct democracy empowered with electronics. Imagine if you will a pure direct democracy, with one man one vote 366/24/7 on ALL matters.
How many seconds do you think before humanity returns to AUTARKY after such an unmitigated disaster. Just think of it!
cvj,
Episodic revolutionary movements in which peaceful Ghandiosities work well enough to replace violence and destruction are NOT human social systems.
Wanna know what a “working direct democracy would have to be like?” Watch the Star Trek episodes on The Borg!
When the Garci issue died, I interpreted it as weakness in the way Philippine politics is conducted — politicians both in the administration and the opposition lack the resolve to get to the bottom of things.
When the fertilizer scam came out, I thought the opposition had a real issue on its hands — wholesale corruption where the victims are countryside peasantry. At the very least, it hit a constituency that can move congressmen, people in power who can initiate impeachment. Again, the opposition lacked the resolve to pursue a potent issue to its logical conclusion.
I think that looking at GMA’s record in handling these past issues helps put a certain perspective to the current issues afflicting us at this moment — the NBN project and its implications to our sovereignty on the Spratly islands.
But resurrecting the Garci controversy, the fertilizer scam, 2004 Presidential Election cheating, etc. etc. as if it were still current is counter-productive. I hope the opposition can build the best case that it can on the NBN project, tracing the decision-making process that facilitated its approval. Only a laser-like focus on this issue will make it possible for something productive to come out — a piece of legislation, a strong impeachment case, a case for the Ombudsman with a chance of winning in litigation.
I’m sick and tired of seeing the opposition dropping the ball over and over again, facilitating their electability without getting any real work done.
DJB,
At present, the people does not even have a say in BASIC matters. And it would not be as catastrophic as you may project it. People simply need to see what truly is happening and be assured that they are heard. For example, transparency in government transactions, if truly given attention, can easily be done. Corruption can be reduced to a minimum. Also, the representatives should be aware what are the REAL needs of the people, not what they THINK the people needs. That is why they are representatives in the first place. Online census can now project the needs of the people. Using these information technology as a basis would give much of the basic needs of the people at the very least.
DJB,
The Borg does not really represent direct democracy since they are controlled by a Queen. Hope you watched the Voyager (Janeway) series so that you can really see what the Borg system is like. The control is primarily IMPOSED by the Queen. They remove all emotions first before the drones can decide on any policy. Even then Rebel drones (yes there are) are stamped out ruthlessly. Not unlike what this present government Queen would have gone if given her way to all things.
cvj,
Pontius Pilate? Wow. So let me get this straight. Your position is:
“I know the truth. How? Because I know. No, no proof needed. Proof is an illusion. Whoever thinks differently is the equivalent of Pontius Pilate. Or supports Pontius Pilate. I, though, am on Jesus’ side. I am right. I deem you wrong. Oh…and I think your world should be disrupted and imperiled because I know the truth. Trust me; I do. You and your family will just be part of the overall collateral damage. Tough luck, I guess.”
Hope you don’t mind that I don’t join your movement. Are you surprised that the majority also doesn’t want to either?
Pontius Pilate. Sheesh.
JMCastro:
that’s because you’re relying on politicians to do the job. one of the ways to influence that pea-brained crop of morons in the legislature is to impress upon them that “getting real work done” equals electability. i just don’t know when and how that’s gonna happen.
“Aquino represents the dreams of Edsa I and II, which may not have achieved everything we’d hoped for, but left the country better off than what had come before.”
=================================================================================================
EDSA 1 and 2 was never about Cory? Cory is still dreaming that the two EDSAs was hers. Unfortunately the people have learned to wake her up and “slapped” her several times in th epast years and most recently in the Ayala interfaith rally. Pero ayaw talaga magising eh. Oh well mahirap kasi gisingin ang nagtutulogtulgan.
Don’t worry, Gloria’s and her corrupt minion’s time to get slapped will itself come.
Geo:
touché sir. a very apt description.
tonio:
I agree with you, that’s why I support some civic causes in my spare time. Unfortunately, most of them are grassroots efforts which would take a long time to come to fruition.
It’s the current crop of (as you say) “morons” in the legislature who are holding the ball, and I’m afraid they’re in danger of dropping it.
Suppose that we had had a fully functional electronic powered direct democracy in 2001. Do you folks really think there would’ve been the Regime Change we saw performed by a Man in Chief Justice costume? In what sense can People Power be considered a “direct democracy” when even the 200,000 human props that were there shouting their lungs out (including me!) didn’t have a say in how it was done? Most of those don’t even know to this day what really happened to the Senate then, and how we are paying for it still.
Truth is that Gloria is a severe liar who said that she would not run for elective post after 2004 yet she did.
Truth is that Congressmen prevented any investigations on the Garci Scandal.
Truth is that they had protected Jocjoc Bolante from being questioned at the very least.
Truth is that there is a discrepancy between the reports of the Singapore government and the Philippine government where according to Singaporean authorities Garci had supposedly passed in their country while the Philippine government claims that Garci did not and his passport supposedly proved it.
Truth is that Bunye released two CDs claiming that one was correct and the other wrong.
Truth is that the voice in the CD was that of Garci and Gloria.
Truth is that Congressmen prevented the proper investigation of the hauled ballot boxes from Congress which was caught on tape.
Truth is that people were arrested simply because they were wearing Palitan Na, Now Na T-shirts.
Truth is that Bedol can’t be found at this moment.
Truth is that a Chinese ship caught in Tubhattaha reef was released with a Coast Guard escort.
Truth is that there are more truths but are being covered up.
Truth is that the government issued the midnight E.O. 464 and persecuted Col. Balutan and Gen. Gudani for answering questions in Senate
Truth is there are so much more revealing truths but some people refuse to see it.
Truth is that some people don’t want to remember these truths.
So please, stop twisting the truth.
“Jeg
March 10th, 2008 at 5:32 pm
Geo, if I remember correctly, the electoral fraud case was prematurely terminated on a technicality. The SC incredibly ruled that Susan Roces had no legal personality to pursue the case after FPJ died. As if electoral fraud had FPJ alone as a victim and not the Filipino people.
==============================================================================================
If PFJ is not the victim and its the filipino people, hindi kaya dapat yung Filipino people mismo ang nag habol sa korte imbes na si Susan Roces lang.
I don’t kno but this Susan Roces thing just look to me so much as the lowlessness of the opposition.Kopyang kopyang kay Ninoy at Cory eto.
Ang problema, kahit nag kapi bisig na ang dalawang byuda sa mga rally , wala pa ring dumagsang tao para makapag people power.
DJB,
A more proper representation of society through electronic means (assuming that these aren’t corrupted by cheating mechanisms and hacking of course) is far better than a dictator who THINKS he knows what is best for the country. A dictator can think that filling his own bank account with the money from the people is best for the country in his own point of view. Representatives should use information coming from the people because that is the very reason they are REPRESENTATIVES, not mini-despots.
“Truth is that Gloria is a severe liar who said that she would not run for elective post after 2004 yet she did. “—
Take note , people have voted for here despite of that “lie”. But hey, is this really a lie or just a change of heart? Is this really that big deal or you are just making so much big deal about it? Geesh , this happened 4 or 5 years ago?
“Truth is that Congressmen prevented any investigations on the Garci Scandal. ”
===========================================================================
If that is the case why not go after these congressman ?
Even if crimes are committed decades ago at the very least must be remembered so that they will not be repeated again. I doubt if you have a loved one raped and saw the rapist after 50 years you would just forget it?
So now Gloria said she will step down in 2010 and she doesn’t, does that mean she simply had a change of heart?
Geesh.
Yes rego, these Tongressmen too will have their time.
Rego:
All of what Kabayan says matters if only to remember how we got here. It’s moving forward from where we are now (now that the current issue is the NBN deal and its ramifications on Philippine sovereignty) that is difficult.
“Truth is there are so much more revealing truths but some people refuse to see it.”
====================================================================================
I dont think “truth” is point of contention at all. TO me its all about how to go about it. Some peoepl insist on using people power and forced resignation while others prefer the legal, fair, and less chaotic way.
And the biggest problem of all, masyadong over dramatic and overreactionaries yung iba.
Can you imagine the ramifications on Philippine sovereignty if the one to two million hectare lease of Philippine agricultural land to a China firm under vague terms was fully implemented?
i hate this new format of mlq3′s blog.
won’t you revert back to the old format manolo?
this format makes for painful reading
i noticed comments dropped after the change
rego,
People power remains an option whether you like it or not.
I guess if you consider the reaction of people when they discovered this anomaly translating to 14 billion dollars as “dramatic”, what can I say, perhaps being dramatic is an understatement.People are Outraged.
Sorry that’s supposed to be “..14 billion pesos for a single transaction..”
A Letter From Diosdado Macapagal to His Daughter
“I have sat at the sumptuous tables of power, but I have not run away with the silverware.â€ÂDiosdado Macapagal
Dearest Hija,
It is with much pain that I write this letter from Heaven .
I heard that things are not going too well down there . As your father who loves you very much ,I will always try to give you the benefit of the doubt.
But having been a President ,I also can feel the anguish and the pain of our people as they suffer from the widespread corruption under your administration.
Hija,I know that it is not 100% your fault.But as a President,”the buck stops with you!”
I have no plans to do any sermonizing.(We have too much of that here.)
I will just suggest that you reflect on these relevant points from my autobiography:
“Among my stronger points are my upright character and my highly broadening extensive education. Among my weak points is my unconcern for money beyond my elemental needs, which is not wrong in itself but a handicap in the maintenance of political power and leadership.”
Modesty aside,I left a good legacy for your two brothers,your sister and and especially for you.
Please do not allow anyone to destroy the “MACAPAGAL” name in Philippine history.
In the long continuum of time,what really matters is the good we leave behind.Tell Mike,he can’t take it with him (not even one cent) when he finally meets our Creator!
Your time in office is running out.But do not despair! It is not too late to to do what is right.Do it now, hija.
Your mother and I will always pray for you.
We love you very much.
Your Papa
Is it safe to say that the vote-counting processes, procedures, databases and all ancillary things are being improved? One would think that “leadership from the elders” will bring non-partisan focus to get COMELEC fixed (e.g. timeliness and integrity of vote-counting; integrity of voter’s registration list).
mlq3, the arguments that “they all cheat anyway” and that “the evidence are hearsay” are the least of the administration’s defenses that should bother anyone. if the fpj supporters really have indubitable evidence of cheating, why didn’t they give it to his running mate, loren legarda, to bolster her own election protest which was eventually dismissed for lack of merit? i, for one, believe that the outcome of legarda’s case should put all issues of alleged cheating to rest, for the simple fact, as geo pointed out, that the ballots examined were the same that were cast for the president.
as to the spratleys “deal”, while it is a new political fodder for the president’s enemies which they can milk for all the negative perceptions it can generate, i don’t think it’s anything that the president should lose sleep over. even granting, for argument’s sake, that a 30-day notice of the agreement to congress was a condition sine qua non for its finality, the absence of such a notice, i think, merely renders the agreement voidable at the instance of the party harmed by the omission.
i am not aware of any law penalizing the president for such an omission, so it cannot be a criminal offense. for impeachment purposes, i do not think it is a willful, conscious, or culpable violation
that could support a charge for impeachment.
i cannot, for the life of me, understand the view that the agreement “weakens” our claim over certain territories covered by it. as far as i see, such agreement is in no way, shape or form, a repudiation or diminishment of our sovereignty claims. if anything, it is consistent with our claim of sovereignty because how can someone with no “right” of title, or even a color of it, make any kind of disposition concerning the territory in question? if china and vietnam do not recognize our “claim”, do you think they would even bother making us a party to the agreement?
mlq3,
“scalia, culpability as accomplices, yes, but there was only one position that the cheating was engineered to secure, and only one beneficiary of that cheating”
i thought cheating is cheating, no matter what the eventual result is?
@kabayan
re responsve to cvj…..”Increasingly that is coming closer to reality at this rapidly advancing age of information technology.”
I wish it were so. Sadly, we still have the big digital divide to cross and this process is slow. (ie the have-blogs from the have nots). Would the poor pay for P1000 unlimited broadband rather than for food? It will probably take another generation in our case…(maybe longer) And then we have the much abused ‘information’ part to tackle…
cheers
Geo,
cvj’s mind is made up on the ‘Hello Garci’ tapes. he refuses to accept the fact that the opposition is equally guilty of cheating.
cvj takes all that eager beaver nagpakabayaning si Alan Paguia says about the tapes hls.
i can’t forget Paguia’s immortal words, in his plea to the rest of the world to believe his adulterated version of the tapes “porke ba dating abogado ako ni erap, wala na ba akong karapatang magsabi ng katotohanan?”
rego,
“Ang problema, kahit nag kapi bisig na ang dalawang byuda sa mga rally , wala pa ring dumagsang tao para makapag people power.”
bigla kong naalala nung 1986 snap elections. the philippine collegian of UP spoofed marcos’ slogan “subok sa krisis” as “subok ng subok krisis pa rin”
parang gusto kong hiramin yung phrase at i-apply sa mga people power attempts ngayon –
“subok ng subok, wala pa rin ang mga tao!” or
“subok ng subok, nakaupo pa rin si gloria”
Jeg,
“The SC incredibly ruled that Susan Roces had no legal personality to pursue the case after FPJ died. As if electoral fraud had FPJ alone as a victim and not the Filipino people.”
sorry my friend, thats the law. a presidential electoral protest does not survive the dead protester
From the very beginning of this Spratly Folly it was said that the agreement included the wording: “The issue of sovereignty will not be prejudiced.”
That’s pretty much end of story. Unbelievable how this has been blown up. To get back to my much earlier post — it’s amazing how the media just flits about with all kinds of loose journalism. Let’s see if any heads will roll at PDI…..
@ cvj
functional could also be hierarchical. hierarchical is more often contrasted with flat and networked, defined as self-organising, dispersed, and more difficult to manage. as Kabayan stated, older notions of command and control don’t always work.
maginoo, the difference is in the level of complexity of modern society such that there is no universal hierarchy. The modern social system is functionally decomposed into specialized subsystems (e.g. legal, political , economic, medical etc) and any hierarchy would be operative only within the subsystem and not outside. Doctors, lawyers, scientists, engineers, farmers and even politicians may have their respective internal elites but they are elites only within their respective spheres.They cannot be considered elites from the point of view of society as a whole. Rather, from the standpoint of the social system, they are merely specialists in their own fields of expertise. This is in contrast with pre-modern society where you have aristocrats, priests, commoners and serfs.
cvj, when these “internal elites” get elected to congress, they then become national elites, no? for example, a sugar baron may just be a leader in his land-owning caste, but thrust to a nationwide audience, he/she is transformed into Philippine liege lord.
look at the pedigrees of the members of the latest congress.
my point: functional does not erase hierarchical.
maginoo, that attests to the pre-modern character of [segments of] Philippine Society. These elected sugar barons think that since they are lords in their provinces, they should continue to be lords in the legislature. From time to time, fellow commenter Vic tells us about how the legislature works in Canada, a society that is more modern than ours.
Just came from a dinner meeting in, as usual, EDSA Shang, this time in Senju, perhaps the best, albeit quite expensive Japanese restaurant ever.
Business is perceived to have slowed down due the uncertainty brought by our political situation, yes, it has reached the point already to be noticed by an otherwise cynical group. GMA will never step down before 2010, but she has to be stopped. Noli de Castro is not an acceptable successor, at least as far as businessmen are concerned, he will add to more uncertainty.
So the consensus is, allow Gloria to stay on until 2010, but, a compromise must be reached, a credible body must be formed (a neutral, third party, not opposition, not admin) that will oversee the resolution of all the scandals, assure Gloria of safe haven from reprisals (warranted or unwarranted) and find closure to all this once and for all. This way she will stop being in the defensive, so she stops paying all the generals and they become less of a threat, in effect stop the internal hemorrhage of funds which we will be paying for eventually.
Bottomline, Gloria will have to go gracefully, damage control to our coffers must be in order, and the opposition must stop all hostilities.
Of course, these could all be just self-serving, with the business environment in mind not the morality issues and may not bear well with other sectors.
Myself, I think this would be a better deal, but then again, I’m not a totally morally upright person, I’m in the business sector.
Hmmmmm. Spam filter again…
Maginoo, here’s an example of the relatively egalitarian nature of Canadian politics as related by Vic in the previous thread.
http://www.quezon.ph/?p=1709&cp=1#comment-760182
If we are to become a truly modern society, we should get rid of the elitist mindset and adopt a paradigm that makes distinctions in terms of specialists and generalists.
@nash and kabayan: Between a US$120Mil contract to provide broadband to 90% of med-to-large-sized municipalities, and a US$120Mil contract for a world-class vote-counting platform (e.g. 36 hours after polls close, that 95% of votes have been counted and made available to all the candidates (and the media); voter-list made available to all candidates 2 months before polls open) I believe Filipinos will agree on which project should be funded first.
cvj,
Where I came from, being “elite” meant being a specialist or expert in what you do, better than anyone else for that matter or better trained. Social standing has nothing to do with it.
bencard, the cheating was for the position of president. you forget we vote for president and vice president separately. all i know is, these are people who did the study with fpj’s vote in mind, for the record, to explain what happened. but since they don’t view the present incumbent as legitimate, why legitimize the organs of her government? at least, that is how i understand their position.
scalia, cheating is cheating. the cheating was done for one person. by many people. the beneficiary of the cheating is the first target because of the sensitivity of the position. and because while still in place, the beneficiary of the cheating has vast resources and great authority to protect the accomplices.
whats different about the format of this blog?
mlq3, the following are the differences:
- the comments are paginated. you have to click ‘show all’ to see everything.
- the <blockquote> </blockquote> is hard to distinguish from the main comment
- the fonts seem to be smaller.
- the links to comments no longer work
@UP n
1. That price for broadband is overpriced…besides, the government shouldn’t even be running a separate broadband network, let the competent commercial companies do it…and if the government is really very keen about a dedicated national broadband network pass the design to the DOST
2. It’s funny you mention the voting system…British ballots are still counted by hand (the ballots casually spilled on the table) and the Nordics are pilot testing voting via text messages. Estonia is way way advanced in terms of e-government. Of course being Pinoy I asked “But aren’t these methods prone to cheating?” They were flummoxed. The thought of cheating never occurred to them
So no, it’s not really the system…we just have too many cheats.
cheers
mlq3, yes, i did not forget that. but the only way they could have aired their purported “evidence” is through the election protest of legarda since, like it or not, fpj’s case is moot and academic. constantly blubbering about it will, probably, keep it alive in a “respirator”, but how would that benefit the country?
btw, the rule of law determines the legitimacy of a president, not the say-so of some disgruntled losers who just would not accept defeat. thank God so many others know when the game is over. otherwise, the series of rallies questioning pgma’s legitimacy would have been better attended than the most generous estimate of 30 to 100 thousand protesting people at edsa after the 2004 elections.
one thing that impresses me about the american political system is the readiness of the losers to congratulate and support the declared winner at the earliest opportunity. this is so regardless of the bitterness of the contest, and the charges and countercharges made in the course of the campaign. the abiding principles are that the presidency is too important for the ambition of one person, and the existence of the union depends on the continuity of the office. that’s probably why i have yet to hear a losing candidate, even in the primaries, complaining of being “cheated”.
…eh kasi naman po, bihira/halos wala talaga ang lantarang dayaan diyan.
pakibasa lang ho.
Theres The Rub
Footnote to an idiocy
By Conrado de Quiros
Philippine Daily Inquirer
First Posted 01:06:00 03/10/2008
ano masasabi ho ninyo?
nash, what about Florida and Jeb Bush handing Bush Jr. the win?
and yet Gore conceded.
http://opinion.inquirer.net/inquireropinion/columns/view/20080310-123765/Footnote-to-an-idiocy
link to conrado de quiros article.
cvj -
just to be clear, modern society, as world history would have it, is reckoned from the 1830s thereabouts.
Using the term, Original Sin, and especially capitalizing the first words, is an obvious reference to the Christian’s and/or Catholic’s perception of it as taught. As used in the context of the column then, it misrepresents the real doctrine behind it and overlooks the great divides between Original Sin and actual sins. Thus, likely confusing even more Christians/Catholics who read the column and derive their own political views based on it.
The implication then is that because GMA committed the Original Sin, everybody in her government and all those favorably associated with her, whether they have done anything wrong or not, have also acquired the guilt and consequences of that sin.
Is that then the tacit understanding for the use of that term? Or is it used primarily for its dramatic effect?
The monumental irony, of course, is that the one person who has done these is also the longest serving non-president of this country after 1986. Of course, her allies justify that by saying she is merely accused of doing these things and there is no proof she has done these things. Well, quite apart from that being a symptom of simulated blindness, the lack of proof in some cases merely points to other equally heinous crimes. For that lack of proof is the product variously of kidnapping witnesses (Lozada and the public school teacher in Tawi-Tawi during the 2004 elections), preventing witnesses from talking (EO 464), and to go by the witnesses in the NBN, issuing death threats against truth-tellers or proof-givers. The tack is not unlike cops and soldiers blatantly stopping marchers from marching to the Edsa Shrine and crying out triumphantly afterward: “See? They only got a small crowd.”—de quiros/pdi
http://opinion.inquirer.net/inquireropinion/columns/view/20080311-123945/Heaven-and-earth
sana mamulat na sa katotohan ang mga filipino na naniniwala pa rin si arroyo ay isang inosenteng at mabuting lider na kinaiinggitan lamang ng mga oposisyon at komunistang organisasyon.
btw, the rule of law determines the legitimacy of a president, not the say-so of some disgruntled losers who just would not accept defeat. – Bencard
Fr. Joaquin Bernas, a recognized authority in Philippine Constitutional Law, has cynically posed the following question in his PDI column (of 3/10/08) mlq3 cited above:
“We do have Article 150 of the Revised Penal Code which punishes refusal to heed a subpoena of Congress. Can you imagine the Department of Justice or the Ombudsman prosecuting Neri for refusal to heed the Senate’s call?â€Â
I suppose Fr. Bernas is not a loser, his opinions as amicus curiae having been relied on by the Supreme Court in a number of celebrated cases. But isn’t a highly regarded legal luminary (by the highest court of the land no less) in fact asking: Are the Ombudsman and the Department of Justice capable of respecting the Rule of Law?
“Can you imagine†that? (No dramatic effect intended)
As I kept on saying
Prove to me that the GMA’s Rule of Law can be used then I will gladly follow it like a worker ant.
But then again refute this,
1) tried impeachment, but what happened? it went to allied’s number.
2) Cheating allegations – What happened? It was noted.
3) Senate’s investigations – Oh yeah EO whatsthatnumber?
4) Raul Gonzales – Care to tell me what’s her connection to Madam?
5) Ombudsman – Oh who are they? I supposed they arent connected to the first gentleman eh?
If you cant refute that, sino ang tanga dito?
correct baka madale ng mga spelling nazi
4) Her – his
From the first session of the People’s Direct Democratic Republic:
A vote on a new resolution will be held tonight: (1) Resolved all wealth shall be divided equally by having the Rich pay the Poor compensatory taxes. (2) All private property shall be abolished. (3) Inequality will be outlawed.
What’s the vast majority gonna vote for?
There is no more naive idea than “direct democracy”. Now I know the real name of people power: CLERICO-FASCISM!
@nash: On broadband-pricing (and that it should be left to private industry)… agree.
On Comelec and failure-to-count-vote-quickly-enough and with-integrity may be a Filipino culture problem, not a technology problem. Hmmmmm… if you were a Brit or some foreigner they may ask that you be deported!!! (unless you’re from New Zealand with last-name Wallace… Wallace is special)
———-
Kamote: I presume that “Rule of Law” means “innocent until proven guilty”, so this is how people have taken advantage and still take advantage. Priests seducing children (of both sexes). Men with their ‘kabit’ and women with their toyboys — adultery is illegal, isn’t it? Gaming the income tax submission (Abe surely knows this) e.g. by overstating charitable contributions. Marijuana. Under-aged drinking. DUI. D-without-license.
(Disclosure: once 8 years ago, I drove — DUI. Or maybe I didn’t. Now, I don’t remember. And I don’t keep diaries. No, I’m not talking anymore, and I will deny unless you come up with hard evidence that is admissible in court.)
And ask ramrod what the law is regarding pre-marital sex. Or illegal possession of firearms. Ask cvj. Ask Abe. Ask Bencard.
—————
History is replete of instances where “Innocent until proven guilty” has prevented “The Law” from putting a number of guilty into jail. But a lot of innocents have been spared from going to jail because of this principle.
Kamote: go google. You should quickly get the feeling that many lawyers (not all lawyers, but many lawyers) insist on “innocent until proven guilty” because there have been many cases of people that have gone to jail and would have stayed in jail for the remainder of their lives except that in fact they were innocent (DNA proved them innocent).
Abe, I think, is “case-by-case-basis” regarding the “innocent until proven guilty”-principle.
I think it is very important to KNOW the real name of something one opposes.
Folks, the reason why in both cases of Edsa People Power we have seemingly replaced one fascism for another is because that is what the replacements actually were. From Filipino autarkies which are always conjugal dictatorships in the Philippines (Marcos and Imelda, GMA and FG, Erap and His Mistresses!) we’ve had two liberal, and specifically clerico-fascisms.
In both cases Church and Military were immeasurably strengthened as institutional players in the national political game, so much so that they have become the actual institutions that can both carry out OR veto any fresh people power movement.
What the Catholic Bishops have been doing ever since Garci is deciding that cheating, stealing and lying are just venial sins (or at least forgiveable mortal sins) compared to Erap’s apostatic dipsomania and lechery. It is the bishops who are enforcing the “no better alternative” argument, not the people per se, who would want Barrabas in there, err, Erap. (Hold a snap election in your mind right now and ask who would win if Erap ran).
Ever since Edsa Dos we’ve had a CLERICO-FASCIST regime that rules in the background. GMA was the person they chose in 2001 and have stuck to that choice because Erap is still around.
Now I know why GMA pardoned Erap. It was to make sure the Ruling Junta of the Direct Democratic Republic of the Philippines always has that choice clearly before them: GMA or ERAP.
Their choice was clear on February 29. Viva Phalange! Duce! Duce! Duce!
The Original Sin, as far as the Clerico Fascist Catholic Church of the Philippines is concerned is still the European liberalism of Jose Rizal and the infant democracy that was kidnapped from a spanish Convent and tutored by Protestant America in Hollywood.
Here’s another term for this:
Lynch Mob Democracy
All we see today is a virtual IDENTICAL re-run of what happened in mid-2005, as I recall here:
http://www.getrealphilippines.com/agr-disagr/18-5-hangin.html
…where I quote a rather insightful observation from the Sassy Lawyer:
NOTE that this was all written back in mid-2005 but it may as well have all been written TODAY.
Pinoy nga naman talaga. Sirang plaka on a NATIONAL scale.
NY Governor Spitzer caught with a prostitute during a Federal wiretapping of a prostitution ring. He was said to be client number 9. Client number 9 paid $4300. He was not the real target of the wiretap. He immediately apologized for what he did. There are now calls for his resignation.
I’m sure I heard a similar story somewhere. Where could it be?
DevilsAdvc8 Says:
March 10th, 2008 at 9:07 pm
i hate this new format of mlq3’s blog.
won’t you revert back to the old format manolo?
this format makes for painful reading
i noticed comments dropped after the change
————————————————–
I SOOOOOOOOOOOO AGREEEEE. Bring the old format back, Manolo. Why fix what’s not broken?
guys,
Tanong lang po sa direct democracy.
I am no intellectual;kahit na minsan iba ang dating ng mga comments ko ayokong matawag ng ganito kaya ayokong mag label o mag asume na me intellectual dito.
me mga ngasasabi na lynch mob ito,me nagsasabi fascist kaya tanggalain natin ang street protest at people power sa direct democracy.
gamitin natin yung sample na parang kailangan ng consensus building to arrive at policies, e di ganun din;instead na tao ang binoboto issues nga lang.
Ok ito sa mga lugar na gumamagana ito tulad ng Switzerland pero dito,consensus building and policy making left to the masses,pano yung mga illiterates, di ako nagmamaliit pero aminin na natin na ganyan dito, e di anong gagawin ,wag sila isali? bakit pa mag didirect democracy kung pipigilan ang gustong mag participate.
Massive info campaign? e no readno write nga eh,kahit anong info campaiogn won’t work, e di ang gastos.Puro hula lang ang sagot tulad sa mga survey.
Don’t get me wrong, I am shooting off any ideas,been there, done that; and nagulpi sarado ako, and not only once,because I never learn.
Ang sinasabi ko kung walang congress,wala man lang mga councilors, e kung yung idea na sasali tayo sa policy making with the congressmen around,How could that work within our lifetime?
DJB,
Nice analysis if we’re in the mood for intellectual masturbation.
mlq3,
“scalia, cheating is cheating. the cheating was done for one person. by many people. the beneficiary of the cheating is the first target because of the sensitivity of the position. and because while still in place, the beneficiary of the cheating has vast resources and great authority to protect the accomplices.”
if cheating is cheating, then the opposition also cheated for an intended beneficiary. if the kick-gloria-out-now school’s desire will prevail, those who cheated as well (but whose intended beneficiaries didnt sit) will simply replace another cheater. then the cycle continues
i have yet to hear an advocacy that wants gloria out now, and at the same time equally denounces opposition cheating, calling the opposition’s barking “the usual rant of a crook on another crook” (better said in tagalog – galit ang magnanakaw sa kapwa magnanakaw)
DJB, your clerico-fascist thesis is fully dependent, obviously, to the passivity of the people. They do not have influence on the military though they do on politicians via their hold on the psyche of all Philippine class” upper, middle and lower.
In our current culture, most anyone with theory and a sizable following of that theory (communism, catholicism, Hollywoodism, Americanism, Atenism and UPism) can have a fascist-dictatorial control of this country.
Scalia, maybe you should run after the opposition who cheated? Why ask them to do what you want to do?
BREAKING NEWS!!!
The Philippines is the most corrupt Asian economy according to rankings released today by the Political and Economic Risk Consultancy (PERC).
Hearsay! Hearsay! Hearsay! And that violates the Rule of Law. hehe
DJB: From the first session of the People’s Direct Democratic Republic:
A vote on a new resolution will be held tonight: (1) Resolved all wealth shall be divided equally by having the Rich pay the Poor compensatory taxes. (2) All private property shall be abolished. (3) Inequality will be outlawed.
What’s the vast majority gonna vote for?
Exactly. One-man-one-vote is tyranny of the majority. Democracy is about moral rightness (We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights…) that comes about through debate and giving everybody a hearing. It has a moral foundation, not just a numerical one. Moral rightness can and does come from a minority. In a society of cannibals, one-man-one-vote would make it legal for me to eat my neighbor.
Fascism is the very opposite of ‘direct democracy’. Fascism is giving all power to the State. One of fascism’s linchpins is Universal Suffrage because they place the State above all else not subject to ‘the laws of Nature and Nature’s God’.
Scalia: sorry my friend, thats the law. a presidential electoral protest does not survive the dead protester
Then the law sucks, dont you agree? Electoral fraud is a crime against the people and not against an individual. I seem to read a triumphalist tone in your comment, as in, ‘Belat, sorry ka, that’s the law’ instead of ‘Tsk tsk… wala tayong magagawa yun ang batas e.’ Alin dun, Tony?
Jeq, you’re taking that phrase 1-man-1-vote too literally.
According to (Jonah) Goldberg (author of “ LIBERAL FASCISM: The Secret History of the American Left From Mussolini to the Politics of Meaningâ€Â), fascism in America predated the regimes of Mussolini and Hitler. He believes that Woodrow Wilson turned the United States into a “fascist country, albeit temporarily†during World War I. Americans in 1917 were reluctant to join the slaughter in Europe. Their nation hadn’t been attacked; there was no defining event  a Fort Sumter or Pearl Harbor  to rally public support. So Wilson formed the country’s first propaganda ministry, the Committee on Public Information, to teach people what they were up against. The devil became German militarism  the merciless Hun  and Americans were encouraged to lash out at those of German ancestry inside the United States. Vigilante groups arose to mete out justice and spy on fellow citizens. Congress passed draconian laws banning “abusive†and “disloyal†language against the government and its officials. The Post Office revoked the mailing privileges of hundreds of antiwar publications, effectively shutting them down. Rarely if ever in American history has dissent been so effectively stifled. – Excerpts from “Heil Wilson!†by DAVID OSHINSKY, a book review of “Liberal Fascism.â€Â
Brian: Jeq, you’re taking that phrase 1-man-1-vote too literally.
That’s the only way to take it, Brian. Actually, in my original comment I used it as a metaphor for representative democracy. But I think DJB meant it literally as in his comment I replied to about the People’s Direct Democratic Republic. Dont get me wrong, though. If he decides to run for Senate (as in MLQ3′s dream team), I’ll vote for DJB, trusting the other senators to reign him in in case he wants to invade another country.
I meant rein. Not reign.
comments difficult to read…
eye strain.
…i wish they’d be more pleasant to read as some of the contents.
amadeo,
I think that’s a fair representation of why the term is being used, to represent the gravity of the offense, and the futility of continued association with her government as it can only compound the offense and incriminate even the well-meaning.
i’m trying to understand this dilemna…there’s a group of people who believe GMA cheated and they have proof of this. but, since they don’t recognize this administration, they will just sit on it. DUH, can we make a guess where that is going??
rego, in his comment 79, is saying something important…there’s an opportunity NOW, don’t focus on the past because that didn’t fly. not only that, current attempts will only be jeopardized if you keep digging into the past. why are ordinary people trying to convince other ordinary people about what they believe in? the people are tired. They have lives to lead, mouths to feed. Honestly, I’m getting that same old feeling that this is a hate campaign against one individual…kaka-turn off.
no one wants to listen, but so many have already said: we want allegations to be proven in proper forums. no more people power because it is not only disruptive but dangerous for the country in the long run.
Mita
Maybe you’re not reading the newspapers when you said this,
Oh they tried going to the proper forums. Guess what happened?
KTNX!
Jeg,
“Then the law sucks, dont you agree? Electoral fraud is a crime against the people and not against an individual. I seem to read a triumphalist tone in your comment, as in, ‘Belat, sorry ka, that’s the law’ instead of ‘Tsk tsk… wala tayong magagawa yun ang batas e.’ Alin dun, Tony?”
the anti-FPJ will say ‘Belat, sorry ka, that’s the law’
the pragmatic idealist will say ‘Tsk tsk… wala tayong magagawa yun ang batas e.’
either way, same result.
either way, thats the law. regardless of how anyone feels about it, thats the law.
the law sucks? could be true. but its still the law.
kamote, maybe we don’t live in the same country – cause where i’m at, GMA is still president.
doesn’t that tell you there’s something bigger that needs fixing? why should the burden always fall on the people to correct things when we supposedly have a government with elected officials and appointees to man the whole operation? we’ve tried people power in the past and in 2001, it only made things worse for the country, the latest attempts didn’t amount to anything…maybe it’s time to try other options?
Coming back to the present, Leo San Miguel is the Senate’s surprise witness. There’s the chance, focus on that.
Your scenario can hold true even if the poor majority voted for their representatives who in turn voted for the above three resolutions.
Minority rights is what is protected by the “liberal” portion of liberal democracy. What you are describing above is a form of illiberal democracy that does not recognize the rights of the individual.
If you want to prevent the above three from happening, then what should be emphasized would be the rights of the individual, even if that individual belongs to the minority, as Jeg mentions above (at 9:28am).
As i mentioned in a previous comment, the worldwide crisis of democracy that we are seeing is that there are increasingly liberals who are not democrats and democrats who are not liberals, with the liberal democrats having to fight on two fronts.
Mariano,
“Scalia, maybe you should run after the opposition who cheated? Why ask them to do what you want to do?”
as to running after the opposition who cheated – maybe in the future. the constraint here is any effort to that effect will simply be construed as ‘pakawala ng Malacañang’ or ‘pampagulo ng issue’.
besides, that will just disturb my modest efforts to help in job creation, which i think is much much more important than to prove opposition cheating.
sorry my friend, pero di ko na-gets yung ‘Why ask them to do what you want to do?’ Who is ‘them’?
feeling ko kasi, all efforts to prove gloria cheating implies that the opposition is squeaky clean on cheating. unwittingly, the ‘cheat provers’ are getting other cheats off the hook by focusing the cheating on one party only.
if the goal is to eliminate cheating, a good way to start is to acknowledge that both sides cheated, and that the guilty from both sides need to be punished by law.
Scalia: the law sucks? could be true. but its still the law.
Yes. But this time I read a shrug in your comment.
One of the great insights of the American jury system is that the jury not only judges the facts of a case, they can also judge the law. Jury nullification has occurred in instances when the jury felt the law was unjust. Juries are the last line of defense against the power abuses of the authorities. We dont have that here. Perhaps we will one day as we mature as a people. We’re still a young country.
Coming back to the present, Leo San Miguel is the Senate’s surprise witness.
“Pano ko paniniwalaan yan e isa yan sa greedy group. It’s like the pot calling the kettle black, etc, etc, yadda-yadda-yadda.”
To Jeg: on “… The SC incredibly ruled that Susan Roces had no legal personality to pursue the case after FPJ died.
Underpinning the SC ruling is the recognition that not every accused person is actually guilty of committing a crime; that it is the obligation of the State to protect the rights of its citizens which includes the presumption of innocence until proven guilty and the right of the accused to face the accuser.
Don’t be quick to believe that “rule of law” is discretionary. The next accused may be you, or your friends.
I dont get it, UPn. In this case, Susan Roces accused GMA of electoral fraud. Susan Roces is a citizen and she is alive. GMA could face her accuser.
(I have to admit thought that the facts of the case is hazy to me. I dont recall the details and most likely got them wrong. But theoretically, do you think that Susan could not accuse GMA of fraud?)
Jeg,
“Yes. But this time I read a shrug in your comment.
One of the great insights of the American jury system is that the jury not only judges the facts of a case, they can also judge the law. Jury nullification has occurred in instances when the jury felt the law was unjust. Juries are the last line of defense against the power abuses of the authorities. We dont have that here. Perhaps we will one day as we mature as a people. We’re still a young country.”
bencard may be the best one to evaluate your comment.
but let me take a shot at it – it may not be correct to say that the jury can also judge the law. an american jury is purely a trier of fact. a jury still gets guidance from the judge on the law. a jury does not nullify decisions; the judge nullifies a jury decision (i think it is called a directed verdict, am i right bencard?)
i don’t think having a jury is a sign of ‘maturity’. there are a lot of non-jury trials in the US.
Anthony Scalia, if the opposition won by cheating and they’re now in power (without using the resources of the office of the president), those who lost will now be fighting for their ‘lost’ position right? But now that the cheaters are in position, it’s just normal that the losers who believe they lost because of cheating will fight.
If the administration has proof that the opposition cheated then why not bring it to the courts? The obvious answer is a question, what for? It’s not the issue here though. It is a number of people that believe there was cheating done by the administration, and that the Hello Garci recording is one proof. If you believe that there’s no hard evidence of cheating, you can continue to do so.
Please continue your job creation thing, that’s very commendable. I hope there are more Pinoys like you. On the other hand, it doesn’t stop you from joining this forum, it doesn’t stop you from finding the “truth”, right?
Jeg: jury decisions to acquit are usually allowed to remain because of double jeopardy : that a defendant can not be tried twice for the same crime on the same set of facts.
It appears that for Canada (vic will have to speak up) despite what their Charter of Rights/Freedom states, Canada laws allow the prosecution to appeal an acquittal. AND if the acquittal is thrown out, the new trial is not considered to be double jeopardy because the first trial and its judgment would have been annulled.
Jeg: Maybe if it was a tandem FPJ-Prez/SusanRoces-VP and they both lost, then Susan Roces has a claim. But if she is filing for civil damages — “loss of income and stature” as First Lady — despite it sounding heartless, I’ll agree with throwing out the case.
Sorry, missed this one. I agree. By some accounts, it may even be earlier.
Jon Mariano,
“Anthony Scalia, if the opposition won by cheating and they’re now in power (without using the resources of the office of the president), those who lost will now be fighting for their ‘lost’ position right? But now that the cheaters are in position, it’s just normal that the losers who believe they lost because of cheating will fight”
but the cheating protesters are not coming to court with clean hands
“If the administration has proof that the opposition cheated then why not bring it to the courts? The obvious answer is a question, what for? It’s not the issue here though. It is a number of people that believe there was cheating done by the administration, and that the Hello Garci recording is one proof. If you believe that there’s no hard evidence of cheating, you can continue to do so.”
i can’t answer for gloria et al. but i think any effort to run after opposition cheats will just be deemed a form of vendetta (they wont be coming to court with clean hands also)
er, as for ‘Hello Garci’ – i strongly suggest you hold any conclusions for the meantime until you heard all the pure unadulterated tapes in the possession of Sen. Kit Tatad. The impure adulterated versions of eager beaver, bayani- and clarissa-ocampo-wannabe Alan Paguia are dubious!
“Please continue your job creation thing, that’s very commendable. I hope there are more Pinoys like you. On the other hand, it doesn’t stop you from joining this forum, it doesn’t stop you from finding the “truthâ€Â, right?”
thanks. right. if i may stress this, there are pro-gloria congressmen back in 2005 who voted for impeachment, because they believe that impeachment proceedings are the best forum in ‘knowing the truth’.
yes, i join you in the ‘search for truth’
Jeg,
electoral protests are personal to the protester. it does not survive him if he dies while his protest is pending.
but there are other non electoral cases in which the heirs of the dead litigant will simply substitute the latter in the case, and the case continues
Scalia: an american jury is purely a trier of fact.
As usual let us turn to that font of human knowledge, Wikipedia:
“Jury nullification refers to a rendering of a verdict by a trial jury, disagreeing with the instructions by the judge concerning what the law is, or whether such law is applicable to the case, taking into account all of the evidence presented. Although a jury’s refusal relates only to the particular case before it, if a pattern of such verdicts develops, it can have the practical effect of disabling the enforcement of that position on what the law is or how it should be applied. Juries are reluctant to render a verdict contrary to law, but a conflict may emerge between what judges and the public from whom juries are drawn hold the law to be, or the legitimacy of a law itself. A succession of such verdicts may signal an unwillingness by the public to accept the law given them and may render it a “dead-letter” or bring about its repeal. The jury system was established because it was felt that a panel of citizens, drawn at random from the community, and serving for too short a time to be corrupted, would be more likely to render a just verdict, through judging both the accused and the law, than officials who may be unduly influenced to follow merely the established law. Jury nullification is a reminder that the right to trial by one’s peers affords the public an opportunity to take a dissenting view about the justness of a statute or official practices.”
From the article Jury Nullification. (//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jury_nullification) Emphasis added.
Bencard’s opinion would be useful, but I think being an ‘order’ guy, I suspect he doesnt like it.
Public Office is not an inalienable right (like life, liberty and property) of the candidate, so the protest should not be limited to the losing candidate. To safeguard the integrity of the process, even those who are not candidates should be able to lodge a protest.
This is the spirit behind having UN election observers in election hot spots around the globe. That’s also the spirit behind having citizens watchdog groups like One Voice or NAMFREL. Everyone who has a stake in the system should be an election observer whether they belong to the losing, winning or neutral side.
May I point out a non-sequitur if you dont mind, Scalia? There are kids reading this and they might learn something. Of course this is also an invitation for you to find flaws in my logic and point them out for the benefit of the kids.
i don’t think having a jury is a sign of ‘maturity’. there are a lot of non-jury trials in the US.
The existence of Non-jury trials does not follow from the premise that a having a jury sufficiently educated to render a just verdict is a sign of maturity.
I meant The existence of Non-jury trials does not disprove that having a jury sufficiently educated to render a just verdict is a sign of maturity.
Jeg,
i thought ‘nullification’ refers to ‘nullifying’ a judgment
the ‘nullification’ refers to the action of a jury to go against the clear provisions of a law.
‘nullification’ only goes as far as preventing the application of the law on a particular case. in other words, ‘nullification’ is not the same as invalidating a law or declaring it unconstitutional. ‘nullification’ may be ‘judging the law’ but it is ‘judging the law’ as far as one case is concerned only.
‘nullification’ does not conflict with being a trier of fact. as a matter of fact (no pun intended), because it is a trier of fact, a jury can render a ‘nullification’. in other words, the ‘nullification’ is the by-product of being a trier of fact
oh, i also have a wiki entry for you:
“A jury is a sworn body of persons convened to render a rational, impartial verdict and a finding of fact on a legal question officially submitted to them, or to set a penalty or judgment in a jury trial of a court of law”
from
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jury
@Jeg:
Proposition 1: Having jury trials is a sign of maturity. [A implies B.]
Proposition 2: Having non-jury trials is a sign of lack of maturity. [not-A implies not-B.]
Observation: The US has both jury and none-jury trials. [A and not-A].
Question: Does that make the US mature or immature or both? [B or not-B or both]?
If there is a fallacy committed. Is the fallacy that ‘maturity’ is treated as a binary value (either you are B or not-B) instead of something that is a matter of degree? or
Is the fallacy that Proposition #2 above does not necessarily follow from Proposition #1?
‘nullification’ only goes as far as preventing the application of the law on a particular case.
Yes that’s what it says in the wiki article I quoted. A series of such verdicts could — could — render a law ‘dead letter’ or lead to its repeal. It also says
The jury system was established because it was felt that a panel of citizens, drawn at random from the community, and serving for too short a time to be corrupted, would be more likely to render a just verdict, through judging both the accused and the law…
cvj,
sorry cvj, but thats the law.
Jeg,
When I said that democracy’s operational foundation is via the one-man, one-man vote, I meant in particular the way we elect our President / Vice President and the context was when Estrada who was duly elected in 1998 was unseated by an elite, without the participation of the broader democratic infrastructure. Taking from it from BrianB, not engaging in intellectual masturbation there whatsoever.
Of course, we also have a representative democracy in our legislative apparatus. But the foundation is still direct democracy where people vote for their respective district representatives. Laws are not made directly by the people but through their reps.
Contrast 2001 with 1986: liberal democratic paradise. Corazon Aquino installed as president via people power, formed an interim revolutionary government, a new constitution drafted which was overwhelmingly ratified by the people in 1987. At least in form, it was a complete democratic revolution — at least in form.
In 2001, what happened even in form, it was half-baked, the constitutionality of the exercise was rammed in by Hilario Davide via the term “constructive resignation”. The fascism there was by the few who ousted Estrada, but in so doing disenfranchised the millions who were not for people power at that time. It is safe to guess that the greater number who support Estrada did not agree to it. The bastardization of the rule of law started at that time, which of course GMA has done over and over again with much impunity.
We are still left though with the 1987 Constitution and I still hope that any people power moves still emanate from it and fall within its boundaries.
My main point is this: we have come to be surface form-addicted/ersatz democrats, without respecting the spirit of democracy, which is about people, equality and yes, about the Law (not Bencard’s law).
A jury system requires that the citizens know their ‘power,’ and that they know how government and the judicial system works. If we have a citizenry that knows both, then we are on our way to maturity and a jury system is feasible. MLQ3 has written before about the need to teach the young on how the government works implying that the young in general have only a foggy idea of how it does work. Therefore as far as knowing our power and how it is applied in government, we are not yet mature (a matter of degree).
[1] having a jury is NOT a sign of ‘maturity’ because [2]there are a lot of non-jury trials in the US.
In the above statement, you can’t arrive at [1] because you observe [2].
Jeg,
(haay naku eto na naman po!)
i think you were the one who floated the proposition that having a jury system is a sign of maturity
“juries are the last line of defense against the power abuses of the authorities. We dont have that here. Perhaps we will one day as we mature as a people. We’re still a young country” – Jeg comment # 149
so this comment of yours is the non-sequitur:
“May I point out a non-sequitur if you dont mind, Scalia? There are kids reading this and they might learn something. Of course this is also an invitation for you to find flaws in my logic and point them out for the benefit of the kids.”
“i don’t think having a jury is a sign of ‘maturity’. there are a lot of non-jury trials in the US.
“The existence of Non-jury trials does not follow from the premise that a having a jury sufficiently educated to render a just verdict is a sign of maturity.”
one unsolicited advice my friend – in a true intellectual discussion, a third party should be the one to point out which argument is fallacious. if one of the two discussants calls the other discussant’s argument fallacious, it is self-serving.
a true intellectual discussant just lets the argument/s speak for themselves. such a discussant will point out the flaw in the other’s argument but by being factual.
To the pre-modern mind, that reason is good enough.
cvj,
The inherent fallacy in Direct Democracy is no high order philosophical mystery. Just like a bus or a ship, you can’t have– everybody driving it without running it aground. The real mystery is why anyone thinks it is some kind of ideal. It is the same fallacy by the way, as the idea that all income and wealth is ideally equally shared. Direct democracy is the political equivalent of another false utopia: the fully egalitarian society of the communists that have all turned out to be cruel dictatorships and totalitarianisms.
Jeg, Direct Democracy is not the opposite of Right Wing Fascism because it is close to being “liberal fascism” roughly the rule of “liberals” without consideration for the majority will because they believe they are morally qualified to act without the majority.
Liberal fascism shares one quality fully with right wing fascism: vanity.
@devilsadv8
re: Bush win in Florida
Kawawa nga talaga si Al Gore doon. Talo siya talaga sa bilangan dahil punch-hole through system ginamit doon at talaga naman daw nakakalito (sabi ng isa kong lolo na matanda na). Remember it was a also a long legal battle to do manual recount. So it’s hard to prove na they really wanted to vote Gore but the hole went through on Ralph Nader’s. May pagka-boplaks naman kasi nag-design ng sistemang iyon…:D
@UP n
Hindi naman siguro cultural. Pinoys are still generally honest..but our politicians ay talaga namang yaki-kadiri….Sa Australia rin na mandatory voting, the votes are counted manually rin…I asked an Aussie lawyer and she said:
“Basically it involves casting your vote by filling out a paper ballot. The ballot boxes are then opened at the close of the polls in front of all the scrutineers (one from each party) by AEC officials, and then manually counted with the scrutineers looking on. The system is very efficient, but remember – Australians invented the ‘secret ballot’ and we have compulsory voting. We get lots of practice to do the business properly!”
So wala ring pinag-kaiba sa atin….and yet she claims this is ‘efficient’. So wala tayong excuse except that we have to count more votes than the Aussies…
DJB, that only reveals the limits of arguing by analogy, i.e. comparing society to a bus or a ship. You seem to equate direct democracy with a free for all which is not the case. Rather, direct democracy is the Public Sphere, i.e. organizations and individuals working outside the Institutions of State, existing side by side and interacting with the State i.e. within which our elected representatives perform their functions. Working together, the interaction between the systems of representative democracy (as embedded in the Institutions of State) and direct democracy (as manifested via the Public Sphere) will move us towards the democratic ideal of the rule of all by all. On a more practical level, each would compensate for each other’s weaknesses.
jeg,
Under our system, everyone has the benefit of trial by jury if the offense is punishable by 5 years of more or charged with serious criminal offense, yet can choose to be tried by Trial Judge Alone..
Subsection F of Legal Rights..charter of rights and freedom.
f) except in the case of an offence under military law tried before a military tribunal, to the benefit of trial by jury where the maximum punishment for the offence is imprisonment for five years or a more severe punishment;
So it follows whichever the accused choose for offenses for which qualify for jury trial it her or his choice, for offences which penalties under five years, it is tried by Trial Judge alone.
So I believe the system has nothing to do with maturity or whatever, but has lot to do with Impartiality and Independence of the Judiciary and also the competence of the personnel, including the State Prosecutors and the Defense Counsels..
@nash: Vote-counting… Hindi iyong bilangan kundi iyong transmission. Isang linggo ang numbers-delivery from Naga City to Manila; dalawang linggo from Cebu; tatlong linggo from GenSan. And then, what-is-sent is not equal to what-is-received.
In addition to vanity, FASCISM characteristics include belief that one’s group is the victim; current crisis beyond reach of traditional solutions like the constitution or “rule of law”.
‘Isang linggo ang numbers-delivery from Naga City to Manila; dalawang linggo from Cebu; tatlong linggo from GenSan.’
Even with FedEx or DHL? Maybe it went through Customs.
‘And then, what-is-sent is not equal to what-is-received.’
This is the problem with a 100% manual counting. Too many COMELEC people refuse to count correctly. I think the ballot should be split between national and local. Manual counting for the local and automated counting for the national.
cvj-
good idea, but quite difficult to implement and manage. for one, with so many actors, interest groups, lobbies in philippine political setting, including hundreds of NGOs, state institutions will be hard pressed sorting out the various views, agendas, pleas, etc.
the framers of the present constitution had this wider participation in mind with the party-list system in congress. any charter change move should include expanding the party list system.
@UP n
OO, the numbers go through a rift in the time space continuum kaya natatagalan….
I wonder how long it takes Baguio votes to be transmitted to Manila. From experience, the city finishes counting at around midnight, that morning the local positions losers are expected to concede (and they should given that cheating is unheard of for our local positions).
Really, it should take only 8 hours (the time it takes for a bus to get from our city to manila) and then pagdating, dapat tally na agad dahil you don’t need to count ballots naman na…you just add the total. If I’m not mistaken, British Polls only transmit their tallies and not the ballot boxes…
Oh well.
LET’S ALL GO TO CONSULTING!!!
“He said that as ZTE technical consultant, the unwritten agreement between him and the company was that he would be paid for “out of pocket expenses” and some $1.6 million, or a success fee of one-half of one percent of the gross of the $329-million contract. He said he had been reimbursed from P3 million to P4 million.”
Leche. Why do we have to get external consultants eh meron namang DOST/ASTI.
Shet talaga.
Ang 3 to 4 million consulting fee, marami sanang naitulong yan for our scientific and technical agencies.
Finally, we used stop asking Lacson to supply witnesses….they have all been duds since time immemorial. Wala namang naidadagdag na bago ang so-called ‘star witnesses’ niya.
to BrianB, who said : DJB, your clerico-fascist thesis is fully dependent, obviously, to the passivity of the people.
Passivity of the people is not necessary, in fact, fascism wants the people to be mesmerized and inspired. And you do this, to inspire them, by repeatedly showing them/the people that they are victims, and then that it is your way that is the path across the desert. And yes, you can tell them that the Constitution is in the way, and you have to ignore it, break it even, because it has been obsoleted by the gravity of the times.
For better clarification, review Abe Margallo’s posts. Repeatedly, he has said …. it’s worth it for the greater good.
From the point of view of the State, i think the key to manageability is not to be too inclusive. One of the mistakes in the aftermath of EDSA Dos was to include Civil Society (i.e. Dinky et. al.) as part of government. They (Solita Monsod et.al.) even tried to run for the Senate. This had twin negative effects. One is that it weakened the Public Sphere because its more active agents left it in favor of government service. The other is that those from Civil Society who became part of the State were co-opted and/or corrupted. The Hyatt 10 barely made it out.
As John Dryzek wrote,
What then should be included as part of the State? According to Dryzek, the determining factor would be whether interests coincide with State Imperatives.
To a certain extent, ‘insurgents’ should remain insurgents to keep the politicians honest and focused.
cvj,
“To the pre-modern mind, that reason is good enough”
wow! you found a kindred spirit eh. it really takes one to know one
sayang. you should have filed an amicus curiae brief immediately after the SC dismissed FPJ’s electoral protest. so the 15 justices could have been illuminated by your rare wisdom and reversed their dismissal of the FPJ protest.
tsk tsk tsk sayang na sayang. the 15 justices are now left to their ‘pre-modern minds’
Anthony, that’s your second fallacy for today.
cvj,
fallacy? sez who? you?!!
my goodness, you still haven’t noticed yet – calling an argument fallacious is the final resort of someone who just ran out of wise arguments
cvj,
oops i forgot. the generous use of ‘fallacy’ in expressions is covered by the bill of rights.
i didn’t mean to interfere with your constitutional right to free expression
Nash
Consultants are being used to think outside of the box. Kaya medyo mahal
(I know kasi konsuhultant din ako!) and mr san miguel is a consultant of zte not the government. I watched TV kanina and ang mali lang sa sinasabi ni san miguel e wala syang narinig about the commissions pero imposible yun. Pero pag consulting kasi tulad ko meron kaming NDA na sinasabi. Sticking to the NDA ang buhay minsan namin. We hear nothing and we see nothing at minsan if we were asked hindi kami consultant or hindi namin client yung clients namin.
Maraming inconsistencies ang testimony kanina ni Leo San Miguel nagtaka ako kung baket hindi na tinanong ng mga senador kung ano ang ginagawa ni FG sa meeting nila sa wack wack nung sya ay pinalabas nina joey at nasabihan si joey nang back off. Amazing diba. At imposibleng hindi nya din alam ang mga patong at commissions dahil sya nga ang technical head. Ibig sabihin sya din ang gagawa ng mga specs at magpapatong kung magkano eto. Yung analogy nya na yung unang proposal e pang 2 bedrooms na bahay lang tapos yung pangalawa e pang 8 bedrooms na at halos kalahati lang ang dinagdag sa presyo e medyo sablay. Although andun na yung foundation pero syempre lalakihan mo pa ang mga gamit para maging 8 bedrooms sya. Kunwari seset up tayo ng 100 seats call center sa halagang 5 million at gusto maging 500 seats syempre magdadagdag ka na ng mga gamit na halos tritriple sa pang 100 seats lang.
sa electoral protest naman. although patay na si fpj, WALA BANG KINALAMAN DUN ANG BOTO KO? Hindi naman si FPJ lang ang nawalan eh KUNDI YUNG MGA BOMOTO SA KANYA. Anong klaseng utak meron ang magsasabing moot and academic na ang protesta ni FPJ? Bumalik muna siguro sa grade school dahil ang tinuro sa akin sa mababang paaralan sa probinsya namin eh ang KARAPATAN MO SA PAGBOTO AT SA RESULTA NG PAGBOTO ay protektado ng batas.
Hindi ba sabi sabi e THE VOICE OF MANY IS THE RULE OF THE LAW? ano na sa latin yung VOX POPULI ET something something something diba?
Anthony:
Since the Lower House could not be relied upon for now if there is a reasonable ground to impeach the president, do you honestly believe that if we bring the case to the court for those involve in the various scandals, excluding the president since she is still immune from suit, we will have a better chance of winning the case? Do you believe that the president will not use the executive power to suppress if not tamper significant documents?
i just became aware of the discussion here concerning jury trials. i believe anthony scalia is correct in stating that a jury is only a trier of fact, not of law, and could render verdict only in accordance with the specific instructions of the trial judge who has exclusive prerogative to lay down what the law is. this is how it works, at least, in u.s. federal civil procedure to which most states’local practice conforms. to be sure, a party aggrieved by a jury verdict may appeal on the ground that the verdict is against the law. i don’t think (with due respect to wikipidia -lol), that the so-called “jury nullification” of an existing law is an existing practice at present. personally, i would think that is tantamount to jury legislation, a repugnant idea.
btw, to digress a bit. sorry to jump the gun, mlq3. i know you would have a thread on this. i just could not help mentioning that panfilo lacson’s and aquilino pimentel’s “surprise witness” not only surprised but stunned them, to the chagrin of the rest of the salivating senators. the bomb that witness leo san miguel was supposed to detonate turned out to be a stink bomb that blew up in the face of the witchhunters and their shell-shocked “witnesses”, i.e., de venecia, lozada & madriaga.
i like the way mr. san miguel turned the tables on his tormentors, thus: to roxas – “a lie corroborated by a thousand lie is still a lie”; to: to m. consuelo (de bobo) madrigal – “i’m sorry for not being able to tell you what you want to hear” after the good senadora said to him “getting the truth from you is like pulling a wisdom tooth”; and to biazon – “do you want me to speculate for you?” but the best part, i think, were the promises of san miguel, lozada and madriaga to submit to a lie detector test to be arranged by roxas at his own expense. i just hope the test covers all aspect of the witnesses’ testimony, including lozada’s alleged kidnapping and the supposed current threats to “assassinate” him.
jason born,
“Since the Lower House could not be relied upon for now if there is a reasonable ground to impeach the president, do you honestly believe that if we bring the case to the court for those involve in the various scandals, excluding the president since she is still immune from suit, we will have a better chance of winning the case? Do you believe that the president will not use the executive power to suppress if not tamper significant documents?”
as for the reliability of the Lower House – around 84 are needed to impeach gloria. i guess instead of organizing rallies, people should just concentrate on working on congressmen to impeach her. that is, by the way, a lot closer to removing gloria than repeated people power attempts!
as for cases – it would be best if the anti-gloria school will get their act together, collect all evidence, then file the case the moment she becomes plain mrs GMA at 12 nn of 30 June 2010
if cases are filed now, the resources spent in organizing rallies should be channeled exclusively to monitoring cases filed
as for the possible use of executive privilege, creativity is needed to skirt ‘executive privilege’
mga engot yung mga senador natin. pinipilit pa ring pakantahin si Neri without the ‘executive privilege’. evidence is already sufficient to file cases against gloria, even without Neri’s further testimony on what gloria told him
a polygraph test will only prove who’s the better actor…
@kamote
“Consultants are being used to think outside of the box. Kaya medyo mahal (I know kasi konsuhultant din ako!) and mr san miguel is a consultant of zte not the government.”
Ok, to clarify, was his fee part of the $300M-something which is going to be our utang? If ZTE paid him then that’s their call, but if his talent fee formed part of the $300M something utang, then it’s different…sayang ang pera talaga…
I have two things then
1. Why would ZTE need a separate Technical consultant ???? Corruption allegations aside, telecommunications is ZTE’s core competency. It boggles me that they would need to hire this man if his role was purely technical. To the company, I think he is unnecessary..
2. I have nothing against consultants (I too was one, laki pera talaga yan for minimum effort). You need to bring in outside help – to give advice on things you don’t have the expertise on….but hello, come on!!!! This is a broadband network!!!! This is yesterday’s technology. The government is NOT building a particle accelerator or a nuclear power plant….
cheers
tonio, if that is the case, i think lozada would win hands down. if roxas will spend for the state-of-the-art technology, i believe we would have a better idea of who is lying, rather than just rely on lozada’s tears, dramatics and witless humor.
kamote, i think san miguel testified that the main reason he was hired by zte as consultant is because of his varied technical experience and his ability to bridge the language barrier. he also said his compensation would be on a “success fee” basis, i.e., he would only be paid if the project pushed through. kind of like a lawyer’s “contingent fee” – a percentage of the amount recovered in the action in lieu of a fix retainer or hourly fee. a contingent fee is usually high because of its uncertainty.
i think san miguel also testified that although he was able to get reimbursed for his actual out-of-pocket expenses, he did not get a cent in commission because of the botched deal.
madonna, i just chanced upon your reference to “Bencard’s Law”. just what exactly is that? there is a body of Law that governs a whole society, consisting of the constitution, legislations, executive orders, and binding decisions of the courts. opinions, including those of mlq3, abe, justice league, upn, scalia, geo, djb, bencard and others in this blog, are not Law.
Here’s Barack Obama on Constitutionalism and “Deliberative Democracy†–
The answer I settle on — which is by no means original to me — requires a shift in metaphors, one that sees our democracy not as a house to be built, but as a conversation to be had . . . .
What the framework of our Constitution can do is organize the way by which we argue about our future. All of its elaborate machinery — its separation of powers and checks and balances and federalist principles and Bill of Rights — are designed to force us into a conversation, a “deliberative democracy†in which all citizens are required to engage in a process of testing their ideas against an external reality, persuading others of their point of view, and building shifting alliances of consent. Because power in our government is so diffuse, the process of making law in America compels us to entertain the possibility that we are not always right and to sometimes change our minds; it challenges us to examine our motives and our interests constantly, and suggests that both our individual and collective judgments are at once legitimate and highly fallible.
The historical record supports such a view. After all, if there was one impulse shared by all the Founders, it was a rejection of all forms of absolute authority, whether the king, the theocrat, the general, the oligarch, the dictator, the majority, or anyone else who claims to make choices for us . . . .
It’s not just absolute power that the Founders sought to prevent. Implicit in its structure, in the very idea of ordered liberty, was a rejection of absolute truth, the infallibility of any idea or ideology or theology or “ism,†any tyrannical consistency that might lock future generations into a single, unalterable course, or drive both majorities and minorities into the cruelties of the Inquisition, the pogrom, the gulag, or the jihad.
GREAT GUY. GREAT AMERICAN. GREAT LEADER
I think Barack Obama will focus the war on terror where it is needed. While Hillary won’t. I hope the Democrats choose Barack Obama for their candidate and not Hillary. Because she could lose to John McCain. He’s got the better chance and he comes from the Immigrant Tradition of America. Everyone’s favorite story.
Clerico fascism is a well studied phenomenon in Europe. People Power was its most successful cooptation here. CVJ’s “direct democracy” turns out to be representative democracy that is periodically hijacked by elite moralists. A new form of it to be sure, sneaky, cunning and self-preserving people power that hides under the skirts of representative democracy.
Heck that’s just like Davide putting on the Chief Justice’s costume just before he shredded the Constitution. Exactly what the present day clerico fascists have been whispering in Reynato Puno’s ear that he could also do in the “proper forum” of some Parliament of the Streets.
I’ve got news for you: the People won’t be fooled twice by Damaso in Red.
abe, nothing new to me. obama’s statement is a summation of modern concepts of governance articulated by legal philosophers throughout the ages from plato to cj marshall and others that followed him. it is nothing but a re-affirmation that in modern democratic society, absolute authority is lodged on the Law that is living and not static, rather on “the king, the oligarch, the dictator, the majority or anyone else who claims to make choices for us”.
the fact that obama utters it doesn’t give it any more validity than it already has. i still don’t trust him.
error: rather THAN on the king…
Anthony Scalia: “mga engot yung mga senador natin. pinipilit pa ring pakantahin si Neri without the ‘executive privilege’. evidence is already sufficient to file cases against gloria, even without Neri’s further testimony on what gloria told him.”
I believe you. The NBN “no-deal” as reinforced by the Spratly issue would make a strong case against Gloria, for another round of impeachment. But as usual, once it reaches Congress there are many Villafuertes and Lagmans in that committee quite eager to declare: “dead on arrival.” And the Palace would again get ready with the tons of money bundled in early X’mas gift bags. Sufficient in form, but never in substance, as they are conditioned to conclude.
Am still watching how the SC will rule on Neri’s petition, which is likely to be granted considering that: (1) the magistrates felt insulted or rebuked by the Senate refusal to compromise, (2) another SC member may soon join their ranks and tilt the balance to the side of the administration, and (3) they may not want to add fire to the already burning situation where Gloria finds herself in (based on Fr. Bernas’s recent article).
hawaiianguy,
tama naman di ba? the fact that the project proceeded a few steps further after Neri’s advise of a bribery attempt implies that gloria allowed the project to continue with the knowledge of the Neri expose.
eh bakit insist pa rin ang mga senador kay Neri to talk further? they could have just hyped up the implication
yun naman sa spratlys – there was no ‘sale’. the constitution allows the president to enter into exploration agreements, as cited by MLQ3.
The historical record is very clear about the difference between Edsa 1986 and 2001. The first was a revolution whose result was eventually ratified by the People in a plebiscite to promulgate a new Constitution (1987). The second was a clerico-fascist coup d’etat that was declared by its leaders to be Constitutional throughout. It was immoral, illegal and worst of all, Edsa Dos destroyed the institution of Congress, the only branch with NO impeachable officials. In particular the Senate as the Supreme Court in all cases of impeachment of those 31 highest Constitutional officers of the land, was destroyed by a Supreme Court that ignored the warnings of Ka Celing Palma against what Davide was about to do at noon on 20 January 2001.
To me, there has been no greater political evil in the 21st Century than Edsa Dos, because it destroyed INSTITUTIONS and put our greatest thinkers on the false road of intellectual dishonesty and moral inconsistency.
People Power is the ideological disguise of clerico-fascism in the Philippines.
bencard, grd
did you hear about the ‘bomb explosion’ yesterday at the Senate hearings?
my toddler son’s discharge of intestinal gas is much louder
anthony scalia,
You misapprehend what is going on. The Senate will rise again. It is our best hope right now to get back on track. Democracy is a brilliant invention and is self-regenerating. The whole relationship with China stinks and it involves far more than the fate of the Philippines. The presence of a high level Chinese Communist Party delegation proves this is a serious matter not to be dealt with in the Parliament of the Streets. We must be even bigger thinkers and dreamers than we have been.
Get your toddler some Bean-oh and pay better attention!
Note how people here who are CLEAR on the underlying principles at stake need only re-iterate CONTINUOUSLY said principles in the face of conintuously modified arguments coming from those who have, shall we say, a more depth-challenged perspective on things.
You can turn these shallow arguments inside out, upside down, and north to south. But at the end of the day:
It’s simple, really.
Gloria Macapagal Arroyo is the most cunning realist of all. She has no illusions about what the non negotiable interests are of every group that supports or opposes her. Her ideology is to divide and conquer. Her administration combines under one big tent, the Clerico-fascists and the military fascists, and together they all rule with her. The Catholic bishops, except for a very very few, and the Military Generals, are well suited to exist under her Regime. After all, they established it together in 2001.
The problem of course is what principles to unite under in order to bring them ALL to Justice, without which there will never be peace, because those who oppose her are RIGHT, even if they would too easily reach for unfair means to achieve their ends.
Benign0,
I disagree more with you than everybody else here. I know you. You don’t believe in anything. At least they do. Everything is SIMPLE to you. In a complex world, that is a very strange attitude.
I watched the Senate testimony the whole day yesterday, and Mr. San Miguel is a stone-cold liar. Nung ginigisa siya ni Senator Lacson, he disavowed an email he sent to Mr. Madriaga, claiming that he sent it, but that it was modified somehow. Buti na lang tinago ni Mr. Madriaga yung email niya sa Yahoo, because there is no way anyone can modify a sent email with attachment in Yahoo UNLESS a Yahoo systems administrator does so, OR Yahoo was hacked by a team of cyber-warfare specialists to gain system administrator privileges.
Either possibilities are EXTREMELY remote, and even a hint of it would bring Yahoo’s stock prices tumbling.
DJB,
i think the one who needs to pay attention is you.
the supposed ‘bomb explosion’ was actually the ‘bomb explosion that wasn’t’.
my comment is limited to that.
so i’m surprised why you went to the extent of saying ‘the Senate will rise’ etc. as a reply to a simple comment
but don’t worry. i’m with you in your advocacy. consider yourself the de facto spokesman of bloggers here who share your views
im an optimist, so yes, the senate will rise again. the presence of certified authentic whiners masquerading as senators will not prevent the resurrection of the Senate
Funny you’d say that Mr. DJB, as I am in fact in agreement with most of what you espouse.
Goes to show you don’t know me as much as you think you do.
The reason everything is simple to me is because I am loyal to underlying principles. You get your principles right, and the world makes simple sense.
And by the way, I wouldn’t call the Philippines a “complex” system. I think CONVOLUTED is the more appropriate term.
It’s simple, really.
What dismays me about Mr. San Miguel yesterday is his willingness to expound on at least one lie, the one regarding his email to Mr. Madriaga. He even went so far as to point out what he says are “modifications” to the email that he originally sent. Well, pasung-paso siya dun, because he does not have any sound alibi to stand on. As they say in “Limbo Rock”, how low can you go?
I definitely think that there are enough grounds for a perjury case against Mr. Leo San Miguel.
JMCastro,
Not to worry, he admitted and confirmed enough to get them all, eventually. If you look hard at the evolving situation, the Senate is regaining vast territories scorch-earthed by GMA and the Fascists she used to gain power. That is all we want: Checks and Balances. The results will take care of themselves. It’s like strengthening our immune system against the social cancer of corruption and dishonesty. I too want to lynch them! But I want them to stay DEAD afterwards, not be resurrected by the evil means employed. Viz: Erap.
By pardoning and releasing Erap, GMA innoculated herself with the “no better alternative” vaccine. Cunning. Cunning!
oh boy. yes, you have to look very hard because the senate is taking out the levity of their own investigation with their grandstanding. leo san miguel, for all his dodging, was even helping them out by suggesting what the senate should be looking at. accusing the witness of bias for some senators was also not good. i did see him raise his hands several times during the hearing, only to be ignored. the senators are the ones in control, they are the ones asking the question. the relevance of the answers depend on the questions that are asked. the senators cut off the witness and dismiss his answer with the pronouncement that he is being “unfair to the Filipino people” or drop the latest catchy phrase or word just for show in their questioning, then they question his credentials as an expert – this only serves to alienate the witness – so we are stuck with “where is this all going?” what conclusions will they arrive at when the senators themselves are showing their bias.
and can someone please stop the serving of food when the hearing is in session! go for a recess for goodness’ sake. also, please tell your staff to stop taking pictures with their cellphones, stop the giggling and snickering in the background because all that just shows how seriously (NOT) the proceedings are being taken.
abe, nothing new to me. obama’s statement is a summation of modern concepts of governance articulated by legal philosophers throughout the ages from plato to cj marshall and others that followed him. it is nothing but a re-affirmation that in modern democratic society, absolute authority is lodged on the Law that is living and not static, rather on “the king, the oligarch, the dictator, the majority or anyone else who claims to make choices for usâ€Â.
the fact that obama utters it doesn’t give it any more validity than it already has. i still don’t trust him. Bencard
Bencard, if instead of Plato and Chief Justice Marshall you gave us Andrew Jackson, Jefferson and maybe “The Great Commoner” William Jennings Bryan I won’t bother posting a reply.
Plato’s political thoughts are certainly not the best exemplar of “deliberative democracy” in the sense that I think Obama conceives it. Plato’s contempt for democracy is evident in “The Republic” and there are critics who consider him to have fathered “totalitarianism.” To Plato, kingly government was the best, and the worst (second only to tyranny) democracy. In short Plato has been an enemy of open society.
And Chief Justice Marshall? If his great (?) contribution to “deliberative democracy” or even “representative democracy is “judicial review” that would be a bit murky. Hasn’t Marshall’s invention in Marbury v. Madison challenged the democratic notion that the people or their representatives, not unelected judges, make the rules by which they are governed, and the belief in government of laws and not of men (especially men in robes who do not behave responsibly as in the Dred Scott case which led to the American Civil War, or in the Philippines as in the Javellana decision which perpetuated the Marcos’ dictatorship)? I can understand why DJB is still furious today with Estrada v. Desierto which has produced the specter of “constructive resignation†that’s haunting the country even now.
I’m glad the Senate has rejected the SC compromise. It could be a turning point for this once august body.
SORRY FOR THE DOUBLE POST BUT I MISSED TO CLOSE THE ITALICS.
On a more practical matter about why Obama is looked at less kindly by some from immigrant communities;
…….shortly before the Texas primary, 84-year-old Clinton supporter Adelfa Callejo told CBS 11 News in Dallas, Texas, that Obama would have trouble attracting Latino support because he was African-American.
“When blacks had the numbers, they didn’t do anything to support us,” Callejo said. “They always used our numbers to fulfill their goals and objectives, but they never really supported us, and there’s a lot of hard feelings about that. I don’t think we’re going to get over it anytime soon.”
Some thing similar to ” We’ve been had!!! Otra vez? No mas.”
Kudos to PDI for making a more concrete and visible apology. Perhaps there’s still hope for a professional media. A long way to go, though.
The Senate? That’s another story. Rude, uninformed and more interested in air time than hard work. We’ll hopefully see some wiser choices/votes in 2010.
DJB:
I watched the whole proceedings, and it was long and exhausting.
The outlines of the government administration’s defense is clear in the responses of Sec. Favila and Mr. Leo San Miguel. According to Sec. Favila, they looked primarily at the finance level, NEDA approved it as a program (socio-economic implications, environmental impact, etc.), and the implementation details were fleshed out by the DOTC. Mr. Leo San Miguel claims that the price of the project can be substantiated by: expanded coverage of the nationwide broadband network (more barangay coverage, more CPE [prolly Customer Premises Equipment] coverage), and increased margin by ZTE.
My problem with Mr. Leo San Miguel is that he made a blatant lie — what pressures were exerted on him to make him look like a fool on TV? Was he even screened by the Senate before his appearance there?
Given ample time and opportunity, I’m sure the executive branch of the government can make a convincing case. The testimonies of Sec. Mendoza and Asec. Formoso are increasingly becoming important to determine the “defense” of the executive branch of government in this whole affair.
So what was gained in yesterday’s hearings? A businessman’s reputation took a massive hit, the Senate’s witness screening procedure for the NBN Senate testimonies is found to be questionable, and the outline of the GMA administration’s defense can now be seen. Overall, I don’t think this was a good day for check and balances, and we are nowhere near to getting to the bottom of things.
If anybody was watching before the beginning of the Senate hearings with San Miguel, he got a call before the hearing started and if you pay attention there was a look of worry (fear?) in his eyes. I think there may not be a smoking gun but all the evidence put together should be enough to file a case against the personalities involved.
benigs, be careful. it’s easy to slide from simple to simplistic.
This is a microcosm of Pinoy society. Lots of form, lots of noise, but zilch when it comes to RESULTS.
It harks back to what the venerable Nick Joaquin said in his brilliant essay “A Heritage of smallness”:
Excerpt:
(My boldface for emphasis)
Check out the full essay here:
http://www.getrealphilippines.com/agr-disagr/17-4-smallness.html
As I said before, you gain clear insight on some fundamental principles and they apply across the board to any permutation of Pinoy dysfunction.
It’s simple, really.
UPn, are you saying that the people are ‘not victims‘ or that we should not show them that they are victims?
JMCastro,
I missed some pieces of testimony yesterday. What lie did San Miguel obviously make? The email thing? Or was there something else (other than the he said/she said deadends)? Also, is he the businessman you refer to who had his reputation massively hit?
EQ POLLS results to-date
Do you believe Gloria’s promise to step down in 2010?
88% said NO!
(52 votes so far)
Which TV News do you Trust the most?
55% said ABS-CBN 2
(29 votes so far)
Which Philippine Newspaper do you Trust the most?
56% said Philippine Daily Inquirer
(25 votes so far)
Who is the most Credible Filipino Leader today?
20% said Ping Lacson
18% said Mar Roxas
(93 votes so far)
Who should be the NEXT President of the Philippines?
37% said Chiz Escudero
(91 votes so far)
Which are the most Trusted Philippine Institutions?
41% said The Senate
(90 votes so far)
cvj: It is a seduction. The fascist will repeatedly say that the current crisis is beyond reach of traditional solutions, that the people have been victimized as the fascist seduces the people to believe that the fascist has the way and the path across the desert.
this is all well and good, but ignores how perfectly constitutional the succesful fascist states were: hitler, mussolini, both came to power by constitutional means and franco fought a civil war to uphold traditional notions of the social and political order.
UPn, but are you disputing the truth that people are being victimized or are you saying that their victimization is an illusion conjured up by the ‘seducers’?
mlq3: Hitler played “… the people have been victimized by the Jews and the gypsies”, “.. the people have been victimized by the Treaty of Versailles”. There was a seduction. And Hitler had to tweak and finagle with the Constitution to make a version that was more Enabling of his plans.
The conundrum with a fascist is less that they seduce (very likeable those fellows who tell us that we are handsome and intelligent and can sing like an angel) and more of the damage they cause, after the people have been seduced.
upn, what is the difference between that and the anti-communism of the 1940s and 1950s, the creation of the national security doctrine, and its most recent manifestations concerning islam and rendition, assertions of unprecedented executive power, etc. under bush?
UPn, even J.M Keynes in his book “The Economic Consequences of Peace” made the case that the Treaty of Versailles that was imposed on Germany after World War I was ruinous to that State. That gave Hitler some legitimate ammunition to use.
As for hatred Jews and Gypsies, that was a feature of Nazi ideology so bringing that up is a Strawman argument. I don’t think the proponents of People Power in the Philippines share in that view. If anything, it is the Admin with its ‘Imperial Manila’ rhetoric that is whipping up regional rivalries. (By contrast, Cold King’s divisive rhetoric has been rejected by the anti-Gloria’s in this blog.)
As Manolo mentioned above (at 11:42am), using the rise of Hitler as an argument against people power ignores the historical fact that he assumed power via elections. After he took power, he successfully embarked on his own Charter Change exercise.
cvj: do you not know what a seduction is? I doubt you can get a Filipina in bed by lying that her hair is blond or that she is an Olympic-class basketball player.
But a few young Filipinas women have taken off their panties, and then some, after they heard truths of their beauty, their intelligence, their lovely hair, how sweet they smell, the glory of the warmth of their body.
Every high school female student should know these words —- the conundrum when we hear a likeable fellow tell us that we are most beautiful and intelligent and can sing like an angel is that while we know he tells the truth, we don’t know why.
Caveat emptor! And wear protection.
UPn, i hang around the internet most of the time, do you think i’m the type who knows what seduction is?
From your response, i take it that you do not dispute the truth of victimization. What you take exception with is that act of making such victimization known.
cvj,
I would say that the manner in which Joseph Estrada was maligned by the Philippine Daily Innuendo and all the Roco-rocos of that period, including all the supporters of those who lost badly to him in 1998 was equivalent to the use of Jews as a scapegoat for German miseries after WWI.
Without that highly prejudicial campaign in which the newspaper and its allies in the Church and Civil Society perfected the Art of Innuendo, there could’ve been no “uprising” which consisted of Catholic Schools bussing in their students and the elites feeding the crowd with food and 24/7 media coverage.
Edsa Dos was like Hitler’s Krystallnacht–it was the victory of a small elite group.
mlq3: the doctrine of national security was first invented when? 1950s? I would say around the time of King David, if not millenia before that, say 3000 BC.
UPN Student,
Victimology is certainly a big part of the “seduction” that liberal fascists use to justify their undemocratic methods. Take a look at the abominable interpretation that SWS has been giving its own data on hunger and poverty. Filipinos are told they are poor and hungry because of corruption, even if the data shows a clear and consistent downward trend since 2000! But not their own corruptions, like shabu, gin capitan, prostitution, tobacco, jueteng, masiao, and every other vice in which the common tao indulges. The message is, none of this is your fault or responsibility. Let us take care of the problem for you!
djb, we’ve been down this road before. the national security act of 1947 and how it radically changed american principles of government, etc., etc., etc. and from which many governments including our own have taken their cue, which is different from older notions of national defense.
DJB, it turns out that Erap eventually got convicted in Court. Was he convicted on the basis of innuendo?
Geo:
The specific lie, which can easily be refuted by expert testimony from an IT professional, is covered by my comment here — http://www.quezon.ph/?p=1721&cp=1#comment-765023 — comment 213, you can do a simple search to see it.
Geo:
Mr. Leo San Miguel is the businessman I am referring to. By his own account, his verbal agreement with ZTE covers compensation as follows: a.) liquidation of out-of-pocket expenses, and b.) a success incentive of 0.5% of the gross price of the NBN project (which he will not get if ZTE does not win the the NBN project).
cvj: you should spend some of the time you spend on the internet getting more information about the ways of seduction. Many of those who do not know what seduction is get victimized. Ask Smoketalk about the seduction played in Jonestown…. really tragic.
But you are not totally an innocent. You do know some of it — seduction — in the context of propaganda. Some scripts begin with a believable lie while other propaganda scripts begin with a believable truth, then with sleight-of-hand, the victim gets fooled into making a leap into quicksand.
It is a challenging world, cvj. There are cases where knowing truth from fiction is not good enough.
Benigno,
Gusto ko sanang sabihin na buti ka pa walang problema dahil lahat simple sa iyo. Ayos yan di mo kinukumplika ang buhay pero alam ko na alam mo na hindi kasimpl,e ang buhay,kaya nga before iT is really simple ang tagline mo getreal. If reality for you is that everything is simple,how I wish na ganyan talaga ang buhay.
CVJ,
I admire you being an electronic book worm,but sometimes like in the exchanges with someone who happens to have more knowledge,there is nothing wrong with acknowledging it, rather than fight it out one to sawa.I only address this to you, because we go a way back in the blogosphere and I can’t forget the way you stuck it out with me on numerous occassions na sa tingin ko,mali naman yata talga ako.regards and please don’t get me wrong.
Digressing,
Napanood ko sandali ang interview ni Ricky Crandang and Senator Pangilinan and they were talking about institutions and Thailand.
Kung ganun nga ang mangyari dito at walang accountability,Thakshin back agin on Thailand,
Alam ko expert din tayo dyan tulad ng Imelda’s aquittal,Erap’s pardon.
On scalia’s point on the senate and rely on gthe court, agrreable pero pano ng ba natin istrenthen ang institutions, should I need to redownload Benigno’s book and find the answers there?
Shall we just have direct democracy without the fascists or what?Bloody revolution????
Ang dami daming magandang views dito lang sa thread na ito ,I reiterate,how I wish everything is as simple as in Benigno’s world.
Karl, advice well taken, but i take with a grain of salt those who bolster their arguments by appeals to their own authority. I trust that you know who i’m referring to.