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Dodging concrete demands

March 4, 2008 by mlq3  
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Earthquake news (Batanes, Catanduanes, and eastern Bicol) dominated AM radio last night; see the nifty Inquirer.net Earthquake Map.

There was an interesting observation made by Jove Francisco in his blog. He noticed that last Friday, the President held a mass oath-taking at the Palace, to which the military noticeable didn’t turn up. This helps explain, perhaps, why the President decided to sit out the Makati rally in the confines of Camp Crame. Read the whole entry, it’s a fascinating peek into what was going on in the Palace last Friday (see also his entry on the arrest of hecklers and continuing nervousness in the Palace; see the related news item, Rains abort unity walk of 77 mayors ).

Have fun with diagrams: See Romulo Neri’s cluttered booty capitalism chart. What’s interesting is his focus is on six captive industries, revolving around Alcantara, Aboitiz, Razon, Tan, and Gokongwei. The bubbles are, apperently, his view of “circles of influence.” For a detailed example, see PAL controls gateways through CAB, say experts.

On to today’s main event. Yesterday Amando Doronila pointed out that Battle arena over NBN shifts to SC. Today, the Supreme Court hears oral arguments, with one report saying it will be a Close call on Neri case. Last night, however, I ran into a former cabinet member with a formidable reputation as a lawyer, and he said that the case was really an open-and-shut one. He was confident the Supreme Court would divide along the lines shown by its decision on prior restraint. While a loyalty vote is possible, he viewed it as improbable. The reason is that everyone knows this will be a decision avidly studied in the schools, and the Justices know they’re deciding a landmark case with near-unbreakable precedents. They wouldn’t risk their reputations on this one.

Last night, the former cabinet member said the sensible path for the Justices to follow, would be to question Neri in an executive session. The news, today, is troubling: Neri a no-show as SC starts oral arguments. One has to wonder if this is of Neri’s doing or a Palace strategy, to deny the Justices information.

Read Fr. Joaquin Bernas SJ’s An E.O. 464 Catechism. He explains what the legal issues to be determined by the high court will be. Particularly relevant is the so-called “Nixon Doctrine”:

Q. Must every claim of executive privilege based on the above enumeration be honored?

A. No. The Court in Senate v. Ermita said that in determining the validity of a claim of privilege, the question that must be asked is not only whether the requested information falls within one of the traditional privileges, but also whether that privilege should be honored in a given procedural setting. Thus it is not for one claiming executive privilege “to unilaterally determine that a duly-issued Subpoena should be totally disregarded.”

Q. Who then determines whether the claimed privilege should be honored?

A. The Court. Thus, for instance, when the Nixon administration claimed privilege for certain tapes about the Watergate break-in, the Court, after looking at the claimed privilege behind closed doors, held that the tapes were not covered by privilege and should be released.

For this reason, our Court also said that “Absent then a statement of the specific basis of a claim of executive privilege, there is no way of determining whether it falls under one of the traditional privileges, or whether, given the circumstances in which it is made, it should be respected.” The lack of specificity renders an assessment of the potential harm resulting from disclosure impossible.

Speaking of E.O. 464… Let’s look at the the demands that have been made by three groups. The CBCP in its pastoral exhortation, the Simbahang Lingkod ng Bayan of the Ateneo, and the group of former government officials in their statement issued today.

Here are there demands, arranged in terms of their connection with each other:

demands.pdf

They are, on the whole, reasonable demands, that address present problems as well as the need for institutional changes. What the demands lack, however, is a timetable (except for the ex-government officials). This is a serious problem, because, as Edilberto de Jesus points out, today, the President continues to be ambiguous if not actually dissembling:

Arroyo made the following points in the interview:

1. Corruption angered her as much as it did the people.

2. As soon as there was talk of anomalies, she immediately took a step to cancel it.

3. As soon as an informant complained to her about corruption, she looked for a way to cancel the project.

4. She only received the report about corruption the day before the signing of the supply contract.

5. She could not see her way to canceling the project the night before the signing of the supply contract because another country was involved.

What she did not say also deserves attention.

1. She did not identify the whistle-blower(s).

2. She did not explain the anomalies in the deal.

It is not clear whether the “pag-uusap na anomalya” (talk of anomalies) and the “nagsumbong” (informant) referred to the same source. But her action, contrary to what the trio of Cabinet officials tried to convey, indicated that there was more than just loose talk of anomalies from tattle-tales.

Arroyo could not simply say that she heard talk about anomalies; she knew about the specific attempt to bribe CHEd Chair Romy Nery. Did she learn about other anomalies from other sources? In any case, she must have found both the whistle-blower(s) and the report credible. Despite assurances from her officials that the deal was clean, she eventually (not immediately) cancelled the project.

Let us grant that the confusion about Arroyo’s radio interview arose in part from language problems or from multiple voices interpreting what she said. She can quickly clarify the issue by explaining what she had meant to say in the interview. She knows which pieces belong to the puzzle and how to put them together.

At this point, however, what is important and what will contribute to the complete picture is no longer what she said or did not say, but what she did and did not do.

If she is as “galit sa katiwalian,” why did she not act, agad-agad, to investigate the anomalies and to punish their perpetrators?

Why has she not supported the Senate investigations? Why has she not provided the Senate with the documentation of the deal?

Why has she allowed officials who could shed light on the corruption to invoke E.O, 464?

Why has she not held to account those of her officials who continue to maintain that the ZTE-NBN deal was aboveboard?

There are appeals for the Truth, but no threat of consequences if the demands aren’t met. I respect the position of the bishops that they aren’t the ones who should be making threats, but if that’s the case, it’s incumbent among the groups pushing for a more centrist, moderate, resolution of current problems to come to a consensus on a timetable.

I understand that there are some natural dates and pressure point events that various groups are considering:

1. The decision of the Supreme Court on executive privilege, 3-4 weeks after today’s hearing of oral arguments;

2. Income Tax day in April;

3. The expiration of Gen. Esperon’s extended tour of duty as AFP Chief of Staff in May;

4. Labor Day;

5. Independence Day

6. The opening of the new session of Congress in July;

7. The expiration of the one-year ban on impeachment complaints in October (deliberations, including passing better rules, can begin in July);

8. pressure point event: if the government attempts a “same dog, different collar” tactic to achieve the same purposes as E.O. 464 while formally revoking it;

9. pressure point event: if the administration, even if faced with a S.C. decision clarifying executive privilege, continues to be uncooperative vis-a-vis the Senate;

10. pressure point event: if the administration attempts to revive Charter Change;

11. pressure point event: if members of the economic team resign from the cabinet.

The 6-7 month period from April 15 to October is more than enough time for even the most moderate groups to firm up what they will do, if the President proves more inclined to pursue dilatory tactics.

I believe, in light of the above, the urgent need is for:

1. The middle forces to consolidate and pursue a consensus;

2. And having forged that consensus to consider that while some are more focused on the President, and others on longer-lasting and more wide-spread reforms, the two are not incompatible if their goal is a Reform Constituency that can challenge the Right and the Left not just now, or 2010, but beyond. John Nery puts it this way:

The strategic value of the 2010 elections lies in that deadline; a transfer of power is already in the schedule. The more our aspiring presidential candidates prepare for the May 10, 2010 contest, the more any cancellation or postponement of the elections (say, through a manufactured people’s initiative) will be resisted. No Filipino politician, not even Ferdinand Marcos, has struck it rich by betting against the Filipino’s passion for the vote. So let Mar Roxas hawk more Tide laundry products, or Manny Villar visit more provinces, or Dick Gordon play coy with Cebu’s Gwen Garcia—their ambition serves democracy’s purpose.

At the same time, the outrage over the official impunity and immoderate greed revealed by the NBN scandal must continue to be expressed. Even if people power seems unlikely, protesters must still take to the streets, fill up the churches, organize school forums, reclaim the public square.

It’s possible that such “communal action,” in the Catholic bishops’ hopelessly ambiguous term, may provoke a confluence of events that will lead to an earlier day of reckoning for the Arroyo administration. Well and good. (We must be open to surprises.) But even if it doesn’t, what of it? The important thing is to do our part.

Father Rector Rolando de la Rosa of the University of Santo Tomas asked Lozada and former president Corazon Aquino and the others who attended the Mass for Truth at the university last Sunday to consider the best way to return integrity to government: “the best way is not through a “rigodon” of leaders who are forcibly removed through people power, but through an enlightened, educated and conscientious electoral process. We have 26 months before the next election. We have enough time to prepare ourselves so we can vote wisely. Let us use people power during election time, not only before or after.”

Some extremely thought-provoking entries in the blogosphere: the most thought-provoking being Writer’s Block’s A Comprehensive Proposal for an EDSA Reform. I do think, though, that when it comes to politics, personalities can never, and never ought to be, separated from the issues, because it is a human activity and not a science. Also, getting rid of the Senate is extremely unwise, though the process for electing its members can stand review. I disagree that Federalism goes hand-in-hand with the parliamentery system; it is, to my mind, even better suited to a presidential and bicameral system. As for proposals for the redistribution of wealth, I’ve long advocated the manner in which Britain broke the power of the aristocracy: through Death Duties. The accumulation of wealth in one person’s lifetime, is to be commended; the destructive effects of inherited wealth is what the British looked at and solved, by making it very difficult to pass on fortunes without greatly diminishing them. This democratized Britain in a generation without stifling entrepreneurship.

The following entries look into the various constituencies that are participating, or not, in current events. New Philippine Revolution on current and future configurations (see also an interesting entry of his on the Vatican position). Mon Casiple calls it the “elite dilemma.” Scriptorium asks, is impeachment better than People Power?

pastilan! reproduces a paper that gives us an insight into how the Left view the middle class, and ongoing debates on how to engage it -or co-opt it, or neutralize it. {caffeine sparks} looks at those who proclaim that being apolitical is a virtue. The need to take a stand, but not get used and abused, is tackled by abashet.

Sonnie’s Porch, and What Do We Care?, and Bayen’s Living Room, and I’m A Baby! and Ang Kape Ni LaTtEX express the reasons behind their misgivings concerning People Power. A Simple Life takes up the cudgels for loyalists. smoke has an interesting entry on what she perceives to be a war of political attrition. Peryodistang Pinay on image-making on media.

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Comments

316 Comments on "Dodging concrete demands"

  1. magdiwang on Tue, 4th Mar 2008 1:18 pm 

    Father Rector Rolando de la Rosa of the University of Santo Tomas asked Lozada and former president Corazon Aquino and the others who attended the Mass for Truth at the university last Sunday to consider the best way to return integrity to government: “the best way is not through a “rigodon” of leaders who are forcibly removed through people power, but through an enlightened, educated and conscientious electoral process. We have 26 months before the next election. We have enough time to prepare ourselves so we can vote wisely. Let us use people power during election time, not only before or after.”

    I completely agree with Fr De la Rosa. We should concentrate our efforts in electing better leaders and making sure the electoral process is not compromise.

  2. tonio on Tue, 4th Mar 2008 1:44 pm 

    There we go. Something I agree with. 2010 is the logical deadline for this administration, it is the time wherein the electorate, if it is willing, can actually do some good.

    In fact, the electorate (us) can do this as early as July. I’ve read of some people picketing in front of their congressmen’s houses. If this is a way to make them heed the will of their constituents, why not? There are of course letters and emails and what have you.

    Put aside the fact that the people we have in the legislature may not be the ones we wanted to be there. Whoever it is, remind them who put them there. We don’t owe them a damn thing. In fact, it’s quite the reverse.

    I see it as a matter of “parallel processing”, as it were. In computing, it’s when a large number of relatively weaker processors work together to do the work of one large powerful one. Why bank on a singular action that has a real chance of overheating (as with processors), when an entire series of smaller, more focused, actions will do the job? What’s better, a lot of smaller protest actions will be too much for the media to cope with (which one to hype, which one to sensationalize, oh no!)

    Now, as for the other means to change the leadership. Why not? As long as these means are pursued within the architecture provided by the State, then why the hell not?

    But this revolution must primarily be one of thought.

    Focused, passionate, deliberate, thought.

  3. Jeg on Tue, 4th Mar 2008 2:15 pm 

    Unity walk, schunity walk. The media actually sends reporters to cover people… walking in formation? Anak ng… Enough, pwede ba?

  4. tonio on Tue, 4th Mar 2008 2:22 pm 

    The media in this country will cover anything.

  5. tonio on Tue, 4th Mar 2008 2:28 pm 

    hmmm… i just read the article, and it sounded like “we are supporting the President so that we will get support in our localities.”

    that’s a lot of conviction there.

  6. cvj on Tue, 4th Mar 2008 2:42 pm 

    Finally…thanks for the pointer to Neri’s chart! In my industry’s terms, that would be the ‘As-is’ Architecture diagram. That would be a good take-off point for future spring cleaning.

  7. Sonny on Tue, 4th Mar 2008 2:46 pm 

    eto na naman tayo, media na naman ang sinisisi. we don’t have a perfect media in this country but to nail them on the cross while the real sinners are laughing on the sidelines? give me a break. sila ba ang dapat binabatikos habang ang mga nakaupo tinatrato with kid gloves? i simply don’t get it. i read the blogs, i saw the news items on TV last nite and read the major broadsheets, i am an avid follower of the news and i believe statements like “The media actually sends reporters to cover people… walking in formation? Anak ng… Enough, pwede ba?” (eh bakit di ka magalit sa mga may pakana ng unity walks? nakita ko sa news kagabi na umuulan pa kahapon kaya di natuloy ang unity walk ni gloria, nabasa ang media, gusto ba nila yun o task nila yun na dapat gawin?) and “The media in this country will cover anything” are quite unfair. the ones who covered them are reporters assigned in the presidential beat, they are there to cover whatever happens in the said beat. if they will be selective, di ba parang shortchanged tayo sa karapatan natin sa impormasyon? besides, manolo had always mentioned here in his blog that it is important to see what’s happening in the halls of power dahil dun natin ibabase ang ating opinyon sa mga isyu. ilagay nyo anger nyo sa tamang kakainisan.

  8. Jeg on Tue, 4th Mar 2008 2:54 pm 

    Sonny: sila ba ang dapat binabatikos habang ang mga nakaupo tinatrato with kid gloves?

    I suppose youre new here, Sonny but if you look at the comments section in the other posts, the nakaupo arent being treated with kid gloves.

    ‘Nagagalit’ ako sa may pakana ng unity walks kasi ang corny. Kung sino man ang nagpauso nun, anak ng…

  9. tonio on Tue, 4th Mar 2008 2:57 pm 

    Sonny:

    alright, maybe the approach was a bit to shotgun. maybe i should direct it at the high-profile news anchors and grandstanding field personnel who just looooove to hear the sound of their own voice. i agree with you. it’s the press’ obligation to report the news. what i don’t agree with is when reporters try to make themselves part of the news.

  10. Sonny on Tue, 4th Mar 2008 2:58 pm 

    i agree, corny na nga. di na cute panuorin.

  11. Sonny on Tue, 4th Mar 2008 2:59 pm 

    ahhh tonio, tama maski ako inis sa mga news personalities na in love sa sarili nilang boses. may tama ka!

  12. tonio on Tue, 4th Mar 2008 3:02 pm 

    and Jeg’s right. the crowd here (with a few outstanding exceptions) doesn’t use kid gloves. the tar-soaked bandages dipped in broken glass (supposedly what underground Muay Thai fighters use) is more the style here.

    now back to that walk… it was supposed to be the third one na pala. sheesh.

  13. Mike on Tue, 4th Mar 2008 4:00 pm 

    Parallel processing…or, in other words, attacking on as many fronts as possible. But of course–no argument there.

    However, we have to be realistic: while GMA keeps these congressmen well-fed, and the police keep shooing away/arresting small bands of protesters picketing these congressmen’s houses, there probably won’t be enough pressure to change their votes on impeachment.

    On the other hand, only 80 are needed…

  14. istambay_sakalye on Tue, 4th Mar 2008 4:06 pm 

    gma’s track record in making good on words or promises are at best spotty. what we have to look for instead are her actions.

    words: made a promise not run for president in front of gat rizal’s tomb.
    action: run (and cheated in the election) after God told her that she will has to lead this nation

    words: the guilty will be punished
    action: nobody still got punished for any crime, pardoned erap after being convicted after a fair trial.

    words: will cooperate with the congress after the “hello garci” scandal.
    action: had her lapdogs in congress block impeachment.

    those are only few examples that if it is translated into a business transaction no one will do business with her.

    word: i will step down 2010.
    action: charter change. shift from predidential to parliamentary. gma will run for batasan and will remain prime minister!

    there is trend here. and to her credit gma is very consistent and very predictable. if this is a lottery i will surely bet all my savings and will be guaranteed a very modest return/winnings at least the jackpot price!

  15. tonio on Tue, 4th Mar 2008 4:12 pm 

    Mike:

    then it goes down to the numbers again then. at worst, 80 coordinated campaigns against specific members of Congress. in the US, that’s what lobbyists are for. they’re the ones who “make gapang” each and every legislator. it’s just that in this case, the special interest represented is the health of the nation.

    and while we’re at it, can someone please make sure Lozada doesn’t get file another nuisance complaint in October?

  16. Jon Mariano on Tue, 4th Mar 2008 4:13 pm 

    Sino ang papalit kay Gloria sa 2010?

  17. tonio on Tue, 4th Mar 2008 4:17 pm 

    But the campaign shouldn’t just be focused on the impeachment. I can think of a whole lot of other things… you know, things like the proper disbursement of the pork so that it goes to the district and not to the legislator’s pocket.

    The congressmen must be made to realize that no matter how their victory was gained, they still owe their jobs to the people of their district.

  18. istambay_sakalye on Tue, 4th Mar 2008 4:18 pm 

    Sino ang papalit kay Gloria sa 2010?–j.mariano

    easy. nobody. gloria pa rin! (as marcos pa rin- i still have one of those shirt, using it as wash rag, very good reminder of what was then!)

  19. tonio on Tue, 4th Mar 2008 4:18 pm 

    Jon:

    Ikaw, pwede? don’t tell me you can’t do a better job than Gloria.

  20. nash on Tue, 4th Mar 2008 4:19 pm 

    MLQ3

    Are the hecklers still in jail/custody? I can’t seem to find a verified report anywhere.

    cheers,
    nash

  21. Jon Mariano on Tue, 4th Mar 2008 4:20 pm 

    Wow, I will be the first president coming from OFW ranks then!

    Seriously, who can be president in 2010?

  22. tonio on Tue, 4th Mar 2008 4:21 pm 

    nash:

    same here. did they get beat up?

  23. istambay_sakalye on Tue, 4th Mar 2008 4:25 pm 

    things like the proper disbursement of the pork so that it goes to the district and not to the legislator’s pocket– tonio

    did you not know? that is how the so called legislators make their kickbacks, through so called pork barrel projects. what’s the on going commission rate? 20% i think. eliminate pork barrel altogether i suggest.

    trust me this is true. a friend of mine who used to contract projects for the government told me this. he also added, to have a guaranteed modest return rate in a business is to do contracting business with the government where everything is grossly overpriced and materials substandard. he quit because his conscience bothered him too much! guilty conscience that is!

  24. tonio on Tue, 4th Mar 2008 4:32 pm 

    Jon:

    personally, I’d like this person to be an unknown. maybe even someone from the diaspora. someone with an outsiders view, but with the balls to stand up to the established power blocs in the country.

    someone who knows his business well enough to understand the long-range planning required to grow an economy, but one who also knows that in the short-term there are great iniquities to be addressed. one who understands that you can’t bring economic indexes to the dinner table.

    someone who respects the rule of law. not the wishy washy legalistic side, but someone who knows that the laws are there to protect the people. one who believes in making the institutions of this country work.

    i can’t give you a name, right now. but come on, don’t tell me that such an individual doesn’t exist. such a Filipino even.

  25. anthony scalia on Tue, 4th Mar 2008 4:37 pm 

    a wise man said – there are two kinds of people in the world: those who have something to say, and those who have to say something

    media people have to say something. thats the reason why they will report/cover anything.

    kaya intindihin na lang natin ang media. i just wish that they stop their rhetorics/pontifications on media being a watchdog or having the responsibility to ‘tell the truth’ or ‘tagapagtanggol ng katotohanan at inaapi’ or other similar ek-ek. para naman kasing they have the big picture of anything

  26. DJB Rizalist on Tue, 4th Mar 2008 4:38 pm 

    People Power is nothing but liberal fascism. Let’s call a spade a spade already. From now on, we ought to demand that all people power results be ratified by the People at plebscite!

    People power is not at all harmless, even if it is sanctimonious. To me it IS evil bred by evil.

  27. tonio on Tue, 4th Mar 2008 4:40 pm 

    Spade!

  28. ramrod on Tue, 4th Mar 2008 4:43 pm 

    tonio,

    Finally, a profile! I’ve been waiting for that for the longest time. :)

  29. tonio on Tue, 4th Mar 2008 4:43 pm 

    anthony:

    i guess there are some people who report the news who wish to be heroes as well.

    who knows, there might be an elected position in it for them.

  30. tonio on Tue, 4th Mar 2008 4:45 pm 

    ramrod:

    a profile?

  31. Jon Mariano on Tue, 4th Mar 2008 4:47 pm 

    So there is somebody who can replace Gloria after all? Akala ko wala ng ibang pwedeng maging prisidinti kaya di pwiding palitan si Gloria! :)

  32. DJB Rizalist on Tue, 4th Mar 2008 4:48 pm 

    Proof that people power is fascism lies in the simple fact that it rejects, implicitly and explicitly, the principle of one man one vote. Here it’s one Cardinal one vote. One Chief of Staff two votes. And one Chief Justice three votes.

    But I would support any call for people power that also guarantees it will put its results to a plebiscite. That would be legitimate “revolution.”

  33. tonio on Tue, 4th Mar 2008 4:49 pm 

    sa dami ba naman nating Pilipino…

    come on guys, the “if not Gloria, then who” argument is the most “gasgas” of all the arguments used by her supporters.

    ever.

  34. cvj on Tue, 4th Mar 2008 4:51 pm 

    So DJB, was the American Revolution also a form of ‘fascism’?

  35. ramrod on Tue, 4th Mar 2008 4:53 pm 

    tonio,

    A profile for the next leader, if we’re to look for a new one we might as well know what to look for, right?

    I met a Korean last week and he was extremely proud of their new President Lee Myung-bak. He comes from a poor family, put himself through school, became an active student leader (activist), worked at Hyundai, became Mayor of Seoul…so on and so forth…
    But the wiki didn’t say, this Korean did. After graduation, he couldn’t get a job anywhere because of his activist past. So he wrote a letter to the President then, the guy was impressed, and called up Hyundai to give Lee a job, of course not after warning him to do good because he’s watching him.

  36. Mita on Tue, 4th Mar 2008 4:57 pm 

    gusto ko pumalit kay gloria sa 2010 hindi lang galing sa senado. ayoko nang biglang sumulpot sa politika dahil may pangalan sa showbiz.

    gusto ko galing sa probinsya at may successful experience sa local governments.

  37. tonio on Tue, 4th Mar 2008 4:58 pm 

    ramrod:

    ah… smoke has a policy areas (and a list of don’ts for the next president) on her blog. i think manolo’s linked her up somewhere. i’ve read them and they make a lot of sense.

    oh, and if possible, i’d like this person to be utterly unpredictable with the mass media. far too many of our politicians suck up to it.

    i prefer someone who won’t give a whit about what the media says, so long as his (her) actions respect the law and are good for the people.

  38. Jeg on Tue, 4th Mar 2008 4:59 pm 

    Ah, but DJB, universal suffrage is one of the cornerstones of fascism. In fact universal suffrage wasnt even on the minds of the framers of the American experiment. What they had in mind was People Power.

    But I would support any call for people power that also guarantees it will put its results to a plebiscite. That would be legitimate “revolution.”

    Wait, what? If GMA resigns because of PP, we have to have a plebiscite to determine if the people accepts the resignation?

  39. Jeg on Tue, 4th Mar 2008 5:00 pm 

    What they had in mind was People Power.

    As in all power emanates from the people.

  40. cvj on Tue, 4th Mar 2008 5:04 pm 

    But I would support any call for people power that also guarantees it will put its results to a plebiscite. That would be legitimate “revolution.” – DJB

    Going by the same principle, would you also support an armed coup that is immediately followed by snap elections?

  41. DJB on Tue, 4th Mar 2008 5:06 pm 

    Jego,
    You know darn well that resignation is constitutional and so are calls for her to do so. I happen to support calls for her to resign, futile as they are.

    But we cannot treat our social cancer with the anti-democratic voodoo politics of people power. Instead, we have to reboot the institutions that were destroyed at Edsa DOS. Like impeachment. If not we will have to do radical surgeries every couple of years.

    That is exactly what they call a Banana Republic. What the diehards seem entirely oblivious to is the observation of ordinary people that hey, aren’t those the same people that put Gloria in to begin with?

    It’s not fatigue the People feel, but DISDAIN. I think political maturity is setting in for the Filipinos, but some people just can’t accept institution building as the path to true reform, because it doesn’t fit into their wider agenda or even more radical revolution.

  42. DJB on Tue, 4th Mar 2008 5:08 pm 

    cvj,
    No i would not support an armed group that promises snap elections. Why, does People Power include the use of armed struggle?

  43. Kabayan on Tue, 4th Mar 2008 5:13 pm 

    cvj said,

    Finally…thanks for the pointer to Neri’s chart! In my industry’s terms, that would be the ‘As-is’ Architecture diagram. That would be a good take-off point for future spring cleaning.

    You got that right cvj. Now we know who or what the problem in the system is, now we can focus on facing these evils in society. Now we know who to fight.

    Now I thought about the other question, for whom should we fight for?

    If interested I have a new 3 part blog article, titled: Amidst the Flags and Banners, For Whom do We Fight For? (Part 1) and For Whom do We Fight For? (Conclusion)

  44. cvj on Tue, 4th Mar 2008 5:16 pm 

    DJB, i ask because i’m trying to understand your logic.

    - You believe that people power is an undemocratic exercise because it violates ‘one-man, one-vote’
    - You will, however, support people power that submits itself to ‘one-man, one-vote’ (aka a plebiscite).

    So if a plebiscite restores the democratic character of a given undemocratic exercise such as people power, why wouldn’t it not restore the democratic character of another such undemocratic exercise such as an armed coup (or a revolution)?

  45. nash on Tue, 4th Mar 2008 5:29 pm 

    sino tatakbo?

    hmmm…i’m thinking of supporting….

    Manny V. Pangilinan….

    pros? cons?

  46. cvj on Tue, 4th Mar 2008 5:32 pm 

    I’m afraid that there will be a repeat of the Raul Roco-syndrome.

  47. alas ka dora on Tue, 4th Mar 2008 5:36 pm 

    Cvj, what’s a raul roco syndrome?

  48. alas ka dora on Tue, 4th Mar 2008 5:45 pm 

    gusto ko pumalit kay gloria sa 2010 hindi lang galing sa senado. ayoko nang biglang sumulpot sa politika dahil may pangalan sa showbiz.

    gusto ko galing sa probinsya at may successful experience sa local governments.-mita

    Can you give as an idea as to who? meron ka bang napipisil.

  49. DJB on Tue, 4th Mar 2008 5:45 pm 

    cvj,

    The logic is simple. We cannot accept any regime change that is not democratically approved of by the people, one way or another. But a plebiscite does not cure the illegitimacy of violent means employed for totalitarian ends, for example, since by definition there would be no democracy there at all to approve of it, save in the Orwellian sense.

    Plebiscites can however reestablish constitutionalism after a revolution like Edsa One.

    This line of logic is really meant however, to expose the essentially undemocratic character of an event like Edsa Dos, in which the Rule of Law was sacrificed and institutions designed to enforce public accountability were demolished by People Power putschism.

    Now we want to take some more poison to cure a toothache when what we have is cancer.

    I tell ya, the people are wiser than the people power people, people!

  50. cvj on Tue, 4th Mar 2008 5:47 pm 

    alas ka dora, maybe it’s better to call it the Raul Roco-voter syndrome. When Hello Garci came out, I noticed that a lot of otherwise decent folks just can’t be bothered with the cheating that was exposed by Hello Garci because they voted for Roco. (I remember that’s one of the things Austero mentioned in his open letter.)

    The mentality goes like this… “i voted for [so and so reform candidate], however the rest of you voted for [so and so celebrity or trapo]. Therefore, i do not care if you guys got cheated”.

    …or something like this…”i voted for [so and so reform candidate], however you voted for [the cheater who became President]. Therefore, it’s your fault that s/he’s there and it’s not my fault nor is it my responsibility to hold him/her to account“.

    It’s as if their civic responsibility (at the national level) starts and ends with picking the right person during elections and failing that, they tune out. I bring this up because the chances of a reform candidate winning in 2010 is not that high, at least not as high as the chances of someone engaging in wholesale cheating.

  51. cvj on Tue, 4th Mar 2008 5:50 pm 

    DJB, but if i follow your logic, the election of George Washington did not cure the undemocratic character of the American revolution.

  52. DJB on Tue, 4th Mar 2008 5:56 pm 

    CVJ,
    But I ask you, what kind of democratic principle do you discern within People Power as practiced in this century?

    Maybe now we agree with People Power because we like the sorts of people practicing its moralistic powers. But I was at both Edsa Dos and Edsa Tres (living in Greenhills at the time made such attendance convenient). You know what? they were eerily indistinguishable in the darkness of those people power nights–Our KrystallNachts–the brown shirts of people power doing the ooga booga that put Gloria in power and wrecked the democratic conception with the constitutional carpentry of the Edsa Dos idols and the gang banging of the Edsa Tres ghouls.

  53. DJB on Tue, 4th Mar 2008 5:57 pm 

    CVJ,
    You got nothing on 1776!

  54. Jeg on Tue, 4th Mar 2008 6:02 pm 

    DJB: You know darn well that resignation is constitutional and so are calls for her to do so. I happen to support calls for her to resign, futile as they are.

    Yes I do. I love your blog. Others however might miss the distinction. And I dont think it’s futile at all. It’s essential that we make our thoughts known. It’s essential that we dont trust the State’s institutions as they are now.

    I think political maturity is setting in for the Filipinos, but some people just can’t accept institution building as the path to true reform…

    I think the people taking back their sovereignty is part of institution building. It’s not all state institutions that need building. We need to build our institution, too, which is this one, the power of the people. They have to work in parallel. Insisting on the sovereignty of the people to check the excesses of the State is the true sign of political maturity. That’s why I encourage Carlos Celdran’s internet call for those who state that theyre willing to wait for 2010. People should really step up and not leave things to the State. It will not fix itself.

    (Was it Reagan who said, “In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem; government is the problem.”? Now there’s a conservative if there ever was one.)

    It’s not fatigue the People feel, but DISDAIN. I think political maturity is setting in for the Filipinos, but some people just can’t accept institution building as the path to true reform, because it doesn’t fit into their wider agenda or even more radical revolution.

  55. DJB on Tue, 4th Mar 2008 6:03 pm 

    Face it. People Power without plebiscite is the fascism of the elite moralists who are RIGHT but are UNFAIR and
    therefore UNJUST.

    Intelligent and patriotic Filinos should no longer accept the obscurantist muddleheadedness of those diehards who put their creativity to the rationalization of an evil means, cloaking themselves in the sanctimony of their declared ends.

    The People Power culture merely plays into the continuing fantasies of the Left, whose religion of false hopes is being decisively rejected by the people.

    People Power is juvenile delinquency in the teenage years of our Democracy.

    No wonder they say that Youth is wasted on the YOung!

  56. Jeg on Tue, 4th Mar 2008 6:04 pm 

    OOps.. pasted last paragraph by mistake.

  57. alas ka dora on Tue, 4th Mar 2008 6:07 pm 

    cvj,that’s what you mean. I also noticed that. all of a sudden roco got voted it seemed by the majority. I posted in one of the fora tackling the issue during those time that perhaps roco shuld be the one complaining not fpj.

  58. Jeg on Tue, 4th Mar 2008 6:11 pm 

    I posted in one of the fora tackling the issue during those time that perhaps roco shuld be the one complaining not fpj.

    I figure a lot of the votes that were shaved to benefit you-know-who were shaved from the also-rans — Roco, Lacson, Villanueva, etc. Not just FPJ. Mas pulido pag ganun. Kasi polls showed an FPJ-GMA contest. They wouldnt shave FPJ votes in a brazen manner.

  59. cvj on Tue, 4th Mar 2008 6:13 pm 

    alas ka dora (at 6:07 pm), :-D

  60. cvj on Tue, 4th Mar 2008 6:18 pm 

    But I ask you, what kind of democratic principle do you discern within People Power as practiced in this century? – DJB

    DJB, as per Dryzek*, the extent of democratization can be measured along the following three dimensions:

    1. Franchise – “the number of people capable of participating effectively in a decision”
    2. Scope – “the number and variety of issues and areas of life potentially under democratic control”
    3. Authenticity – “the degree to which democratic control is engaged through communication that encourages reflection upon preferences without coercion”
    [*Source: Deliberative Democracy and Beyond - John Dryzek]

    People Power (its civilian component) embodies the democratic principle of authenticity but has an uneven franchise (especially if centered in one locality like Metro Manila). Representative democracy is supposed to have franchise (assuming honest elections) but in reality, our current one lacks authenticity because of Hello Garci and the fact that Congress can be bought.

    I do think your idea of having snap elections (or a plebiscite) to validate the ‘franchise’ component of democracy after a successful People Power exercise is a good one.

    As for your characterization of the people power exercises (EDSA Dos and Tres), democracy is not just for genteel aristocrats. We are no longer in ancient Greece.

    You got nothing on 1776! – DJB

    It’s not good form to weasel out if there is a written trail.

  61. Mike on Tue, 4th Mar 2008 6:49 pm 

    I happen to support calls for her to resign, futile as they are. – DJB

    That’s the point of the rallies. If by “calls for her to resign,” you mean a few letters to the editor, then indeed, they are futile. But several hundred thousand people in the streets shouting for her to resign, well, maybe that’s harder to resist. And if they get her to resign–well, that’s constitutional, isn’t it?

  62. Jeg on Tue, 4th Mar 2008 6:51 pm 

    Whatever you think PP is, we must purge it of the military component. Laws should be enacted to make it illegal for the military to be used against Filipinos unless Martial Law is approved by Congress and under the strictures imposed on Martial Law by our constitution. A president that orders a military operation against Filipinos under this proposal would be giving an illegal order.

  63. tonio on Tue, 4th Mar 2008 6:55 pm 

    Jeg:

    but what about the suppression of lawless violence and all those other things a military is supposed to do? like fight commies and such?

    i’m not disagreeing with you though, in times like these, the Army is best deployed if it stays in its barracks and refuses to debase itself by stopping students on the highway or beating up hecklers. (i may be wrong here, who picked up those hecklers and where are they now?)

  64. Jeg on Tue, 4th Mar 2008 6:58 pm 

    but what about the suppression of lawless violence and all those other things a military is supposed to do? like fight commies and such?

    You mean fighting crime? That’s a job for the cops, not the military. The PNP has paramilitary forces like the SAF for that.

  65. Jeg on Tue, 4th Mar 2008 7:01 pm 

    i may be wrong here, who picked up those hecklers and where are they now?

    The PSG did (another miltary branch under the army, if Im not mistaken). I dont think we have the equivalent of the secret service here.

    They were turned over to the local cops, then released.

  66. tonio on Tue, 4th Mar 2008 7:03 pm 

    Jeg:

    ah well, that’s good then.

    on another note, Zubiri’s come out calling for the junking of EO 464. oooooh. tough guy.

  67. tonio on Tue, 4th Mar 2008 7:04 pm 

    Yeah, the PSG is Army. At least that’s what my friend told me back when his dad headed it.

  68. alas ka dora on Tue, 4th Mar 2008 7:04 pm 

    In all honesty, whenever i see Erap, Binay and the rest of the trapos in rallies i’m turned off. at the back of my mind i see these people piggy backing their own selfish agenda with people’s genuine concern for at least a good government institution.

    Edsa 2 may have had a regrettable result with Gloria, but people power, when institutions have failed, remains a formidable recourse to send a strong message to the government that they owe it to the people to be forthright in conducting their duties/business.

  69. cvj on Tue, 4th Mar 2008 7:44 pm 

    Whatever you think PP is, we must purge it of the military component. – Jeg

    I agree. The furthest the military component should go is to arrest Esperon and the other corrupt generals (and officers).

  70. noid on Tue, 4th Mar 2008 7:45 pm 

    Great episode on The Explainer today, Manolo. Just finished watching it, and featuring Team RP helped provide a more complete picture of what I’ve been documenting these past couple of weeks. Indeed, there’s a new and growing consciousness, which is founded on the need for more lasting solutions to our problems. Also, the recent events have created a sense of urgency, and have woken us up from our collective slumber, and it is a great thing…

    Am looking forward to join similar group efforts in the future. If the Black and White Movement will hold a general assembly or a forum, will surely attend it. ;)

  71. Kamote on Tue, 4th Mar 2008 7:48 pm 

    Mga pwedeng maging presidente na pwedeng manalo sa totoong buhay.

    Pwede na ang yung si Zobel. Respetado sa business community, me pera na at siguro naman hindi mag iinteres magnakaw. Kung kakayanin nyang gawin ang process ng mga agencies na tulad ng process ng mga negosyo nya mas maganda.

    Pwede na din kahit paano si Villanueva ang problema nga lang I pa pray over nya lagi ang mga problema ng bayan.

    Pwede din si Manny Villar para maging slogan natin e ST!!!!

    Patola wala na akong maisip na me chance pang maging presidente na acceptable sa mga panlasa nyo.

    Pa share naman ng mga presidentiables na nakikinikita nyong me chance na manalo at sakto sa panlasa nyo.

  72. DJB on Tue, 4th Mar 2008 7:50 pm 

    CVJ,
    People Power appears to score very low along all three of Dryzek’s dimensions. Lookit:

    1. FRANCHISE: whether it is Joma’s one hundred thousand or even a million (in his wildest dreams, just before the Dutch police came knocking), we are talking of a score of about one percent of the people being present when the decision was made by Davide at E2. (That’s what I mean by no one man one vote principle within PP).

    2. SCOPE: PP seems always limited to the Presidency. You can’t really people power poverty or crime or terrorism can you. People Power is an overthrow mechanism with just a prayer and hope that the fire is better than the frying pan!

    3. As for authenticity, I’m not sure how we measure “reflection without coercion.” But I do know several Ateneo college students who didn’t exactly like being coerced to go with the herd.

    But let me grant this point: that PP is full of good intentions, and they sure do enough communication and honest reflection.

    Still, good intentions are not enough, no matter how authentic.

    I think Dryzek proves my point: People Power is anti democratic liberal fascism.

    Thanks!

  73. nash on Tue, 4th Mar 2008 7:56 pm 

    @djb

    incidentally isn’t “liberal fascism” an oxymoron :D

  74. Lester Cavestany on Tue, 4th Mar 2008 8:06 pm 

    There’s no denying that our democracy is still young compared to the US and the UK. But we have to feel sorry for ourselves as well because we’ve had democracy way before developed countries like Australia, Norway, Finland, Japan, Singapore, South Korea.

    They’ve had more progress than us. Why? I tend to agree with those who would argue that what we have in the Philippines is not real democracy but democratic oligarchy.

    Let’s join Chikoy Pura of the Jerks in singing, “EDSA ng pagbabago, Saan, kailan, kanino?”

    At ang sagot natin, “Dito! Ngayon! Para sa lahat ng mamamayang Pilipino!”

  75. ramrod on Tue, 4th Mar 2008 8:08 pm 

    kamote,

    President – Villar
    Anti-crime Czar – Lacson
    CHED Chairman – DJBRizalist

  76. mang_isko on Tue, 4th Mar 2008 8:08 pm 

    kamote, si manolo pwede?!

  77. Manila Bay Watch on Tue, 4th Mar 2008 8:09 pm 

    Re: “Yeah, the PSG is Army.” — Tonio

    Clarification: PSG has members not just from the (Philippine) Army but is a mixture — all major service commands including from the police.

  78. Manila Bay Watch on Tue, 4th Mar 2008 8:11 pm 

    Re: “Whatever you think PP is, we must purge it of the military component.” – Jeg

    Agree!

  79. ramrod on Tue, 4th Mar 2008 8:13 pm 

    Re: “Whatever you think PP is, we must purge it of the military component.” – Jeg

    Agree…

  80. ramrod on Tue, 4th Mar 2008 8:14 pm 

    Anna,

    Can you imagine DJB as CHED chairman? Now that would be a sight eh?

  81. benign0 on Tue, 4th Mar 2008 8:16 pm 

    Check out the street “revolution” scorecard so far. Note the key common denominator — none other than the Lady-in-Yellow herself! :D

    http://www.getrealphilippines.com/agr-disagr/edsa_collection.html

    Hall of shame: Philippine street “revolutions”!

  82. Manila Bay Watch on Tue, 4th Mar 2008 8:19 pm 

    Under siege mentality gaining ground in Malacanang?

    Jove Francisco reports:

    THE FORTRESS, AGAIN

    And for the nth time since she assumed office… Malacanang once again became a virtual fortress. All roads that led to the complex were secured by the Presidential Security Group, augmented with forces from the Manila Police District and police contingents from Region 3. Mendiola, was closed to traffic by a wall of container vans and barbed wire.

    Who does she think she is, Bush?

  83. nash on Tue, 4th Mar 2008 8:20 pm 

    @lester

    Actually, Norway is a constitutional monarchy, but good for mentioning them because it is our country which looks like a monarchy…with an evil and incompetent queen

  84. ramrod on Tue, 4th Mar 2008 8:21 pm 

    MBW,

    How can you lead, when you are so afraid of you own constituents?

  85. nash on Tue, 4th Mar 2008 8:22 pm 

    andito nanaman si Benign-zero, nag-aadvertise ng blog niya.

    kaya nga kami andito sa blog ni manolo at hindi sa blog mo eh. obvious ba?

  86. Manila Bay Watch on Tue, 4th Mar 2008 8:22 pm 

    Ramrod,

    Oh I’m sure Dean’s qualified to be that but believe me, if he becomes CHED chair, we’ll be back to the 60s era “The Russians are coming, the Russians are coming…”

    But I think Quezon here will be a more suitable candidate for the post though.

  87. Manila Bay Watch on Tue, 4th Mar 2008 8:24 pm 

    Re: “How can you lead, when you are so afraid of you own constituents?” — Ramrod

    That’s probably why she is failing miserably to lead.

  88. cvj on Tue, 4th Mar 2008 8:24 pm 

    I think Dryzek proves my point: People Power is anti democratic liberal fascism. – DJB

    DJB, before enlisting him as an ally, read first what Dryzek has to say:

    Question: Is the proper location of [democratic] deliberation the existing representative institutions and legal system of liberal democracy, or should deliberation extend more broadly throughout society? Might existing representative institutions prove inhospitable to effective deliberation, such that alternative locations should be sought?

    Answer: Deliberation can occur within representative institutions and the legal system, but they should not constitute its only homes. LIberal constitutionalist deliberative democrats tend to ignore the fact that these institutions are part of an entity called the state, and so subject to major constraints upon the degree to which authentic democratic control can be exercised within them…As i have argued throughout, the most important alternative location for deliberation is civil society or the public sphere. A vital public sphere is essential for the continued health of democracy because a flourishing civil society provides both a resource for future democratization of the state and a check against reversal of the state’s democratic commitments…Elections are not the only possible means of transmission of public opiinion to the state, or even necessarily the most important ones. – John Dryzek, Deliberative Democracy and Beyond –

    As you suggested, the validity (i.e. which corresponds to franchise in Dryzek’s terms) of a people power exercise can be verified by a plebiscite afterwards.

  89. ramrod on Tue, 4th Mar 2008 8:25 pm 

    MBW,

    I think so too.

  90. Manila Bay Watch on Tue, 4th Mar 2008 8:26 pm 

    Re: ” I tend to agree with those who would argue that what we have in the Philippines is not real democracy but democratic oligarchy.” — Lester Cavestany

    Ah, that is absolutely true aka as political dynasties and inbreeding!

  91. Manila Bay Watch on Tue, 4th Mar 2008 9:01 pm 

    People power is not a Philippine invention. It’s been a common practice in various societies, this throughout history. They’ve come in many forms, demonstrations, rallies, counter rallies, nationwide music/cultural festivals, etc.

    Frankly, I’m not enamoured of people power practices; based on what I’ve witnessed several times over from where I sit not because they are wrong but because they — affect my comfort zone; they cause horrendous traffic jams, noise, they run the risk of getting out hand, etc, etc. :)

    That said, the exercise of ‘people power’ is in itself enshrined in the Universal Declaration of human rights, freedom of assembly and freedom of speech and it is absolutely within their democratic rights for people to assemble, air their grievances against republican institutions – or for that matter, air their contentment and discontentment.

    To take this power away from the people, their prerogative to assail a government that is morally bankrupt, is to violate one of their most basic democratic rights. That cannot be so because if you do that, you end up having a fascistic state that DJB abhors so.

    Obviously, there are varying degrees in people power practices and as can be gleaned in history, there were excesses; worthy of note were the French Revolution and the Bolshevik Revolution as well as Mao’s great march.

    What fascinates me is how DJB can be so vehemently opposed to people power when it was the same people power than enabled him to come home, i.e., when Marcos was deposed. I’d like to think that this is not another one of his volte face tendencies, left instantly veering to the right and right veering to extreme right (there’s only one way to go if you keep doing that, as in clockwork, from the extreme right, you go back to the left!)

  92. Manila Bay Watch on Tue, 4th Mar 2008 9:10 pm 

    “kaya nga kami andito sa blog ni manolo at hindi sa blog mo eh. obvious ba?” — Nash (wink, wink, wink)

  93. Manila Bay Watch on Tue, 4th Mar 2008 9:11 pm 

    Why didn’t the icon register! Damn — and I was so happy I finally registered my first emoticon and then none! (‘wink’)

  94. Manila Bay Watch on Tue, 4th Mar 2008 9:12 pm 

    Ok, I give up!

    “kaya nga kami andito sa blog ni manolo at hindi sa blog mo eh. obvious ba?” — Nash

    Will go back to old fashion but tried and true — HAHAHAH!

  95. ramrod on Tue, 4th Mar 2008 9:17 pm 

    I visited benign0’s blog and it had nice pictures of Cory. Why this apparent hard__ for people power?

    What would rather have, PEOPLE POWERless?

  96. DJB Rizalist on Tue, 4th Mar 2008 9:18 pm 

    CVJ:

    There was no plebiscite after Edsa Dos because the Supreme Court called it “Constitutional throughout.” It is whether you still believe them which makes someone a people power diehard! And of course, no people power process can ever contemplate my “test” of a plebiscite because it is precisely the limited franchise nature of PP that makes the shortcut possible.

    As for Dryzek you’ve only driven home the point that People Power is not deliberative democracy with a broad franchise at all but is strictly limited to guess who? The same people who put Gloria in power. What they did to Erap and the Filipino people was fascism pure and simple. Why should the people heed their call?

    The Church is hardly capable of fostering democratic debate, even if the Philippine Daily Innuendo has practically declared a Second First Quarter Storm in the universities. Their religious training only abets political correctness at a time like this. What’s more there is something really fishy about their Pastoral Letter. It sounds like they were blackmailed and they gave in. Whatever happened to courage? To heroism for the sake of the truth? They should’ve called for resignation.

    So bah humbug on their watch-pray-act orders now being carried out by nuns who are members of the CPP Central Committee. Before you know it we could again be under the rule of the the Catholic Taliban.

    The Church must not forget that it owes its very life to Democracy. Let them not act with ungrateful hubris. GMA is as much their creation as they are of God’s!

  97. DJB Rizalist on Tue, 4th Mar 2008 9:26 pm 

    MBW,
    Actually, I thank President Ronald Reagan for 1986. Suppose he said to Marcos “Do whatever you want it’s your country.” instead of “Cut and cut cleanly” do you think we would be celebrating a peaceful Edsa People Power REvolution at all. Would the People Power concept ever have gotten going if there’d been a bloodbath instead. Or if Reagan brought Marcos to Paoay instead of Hawaii? Marcos would’ve died soon enough anyway without any people power at all. Truth is, even George Schultz called the Philippines a country of forty million cowards and one sonofabitch. What did the Filipinos do in 1986 they could not have done in 1976?

  98. Bert on Tue, 4th Mar 2008 9:50 pm 

    lozada is really a byword name nowadays, even in the subconcious. tonio himself, the very impartial commenter in this blog thinks lozada of lozano (see at 4:12pm), heheh.

  99. cvj on Tue, 4th Mar 2008 9:52 pm 

    There was no plebiscite after Edsa Dos because the Supreme Court called it “Constitutional throughout.” It is whether you still believe them which makes someone a people power diehard! – DJB

    Then your beef is with the Supreme Court. I don’t believe them either so i guess i’m not a people power diehard after all. To me, the issue has less to do with People Power’s Constitutionality that whether or not it is a democratic exercise. Against an illegitimate administration that has lacked democratic franchise since 2004 (or earlier), the answer is not hard to come by.

    And of course, no people power process can ever contemplate my “test” of a plebiscite because it is precisely the limited franchise nature of PP that makes the shortcut possible. – DJB

    I did say your suggestion of a plebiscite is a good idea. Doesn’t that count as ‘contemplating’? Why don’t you try it out on other people power advocates before concluding that your ‘test’ will not be accepted?

    As for Dryzek you’ve only driven home the point that People Power is not deliberative democracy with a broad franchise at all but is strictly limited to guess who? The same people who put Gloria in power. – DJB

    I think you have the sequence backwards. The masa never wanted Gloria Arroyo in the first place. It’s the EDSA Dos crowd who are belatedly coming to their senses.

  100. Bert on Tue, 4th Mar 2008 9:53 pm 

    subconscious pala, damn keyboard.

  101. cvj on Tue, 4th Mar 2008 9:56 pm 

    “that whether or not it is a democratic exercise” above should read “than whether or not it is a democratic exercise“.

  102. tonio on Tue, 4th Mar 2008 10:03 pm 

    Bert:

    er, i was thinking about Atty. Oliver Lozano and his bogus impeachment complaints… i’m sure he’s getting another one ready in order to inoculate his Empress for yet another year.

    Hey, if Lozada wants to file one, who’s stopping him? I’m sure more than a few spotlight-hungry congressmen just might bite.

  103. Kabayan on Tue, 4th Mar 2008 10:03 pm 

    Manolo,

    Thank you for Neri’s Booty Capitalism Chart.

  104. cvj on Tue, 4th Mar 2008 10:10 pm 

    Anna, i guess DJB is just awaiting instructions from W.

  105. Manila Bay Watch on Tue, 4th Mar 2008 10:12 pm 

    Re: “Actually, I thank President Ronald Reagan for 1986.” – DJB

    I see… Ok, at least that is setting the record straight CLEANLY!

    People power was what drove highly esteemed Pres Reagan to finally instruct Pres Marcos to cut and cut cleanly. Without that people power element, Pres Reagan along with George Schultz would continue support for the ’sonofabitch.’

    Do think you also ought to be thankful to Filipino People Power of 1986. (But that’s just me — don’t mind me.)

  106. Manila Bay Watch on Tue, 4th Mar 2008 10:20 pm 

    Chuck,

    Awaiting instructions to do what? Cut and cut cleanly?

  107. Kabayan on Tue, 4th Mar 2008 10:37 pm 

    Many Filipinos tend to trust foreigners rather than do common sense analysis on geopolitics. Unknown to this same group that the policy of these foreigners are geared towards their nations interest and not necessarily for the benefit of the Filipinos, whether they be an ally or not. Heavy vestiges of colonial mentality still reeks.

  108. renmin on Tue, 4th Mar 2008 10:50 pm 

    (It was Paul Laxalt who told Marcos to cut and cut cleanly.)

  109. BrianB on Tue, 4th Mar 2008 11:04 pm 

    Elections vs Revolts,

    For people who think protecting votes is easier than unseating a president, imagine yourself being watchers and teachers at voting stations in some places in Mindanao.

    Election volunteers talk a good game but they are pretty much useless camera hogs. They help little and are totally insignificant in the final equation.

  110. DJB on Tue, 4th Mar 2008 11:05 pm 

    MBW,
    It’s incredible that we blame America for Marcos more than we blame Marcos for Marcos.

    Weren’t we independent already for forty years by the time he was overthrown?

    Ah, but yeah, we blame them for EVERYTHING.

    But who really saved the Filipinos in 1986? Reagan? Cardinal Sin? Cory Aquino? Or lupus?

    My only point here is that there ain’t nothing inherently bloodless about a people power movement.

    Perhaps the enchantment of the idea won’t wear off around here until that happens.

  111. DJB on Tue, 4th Mar 2008 11:08 pm 

    Kabayan: “Heavy vestiges of colonial mentality still reeks.”

    My, what perfect English you have!

  112. Manila Bay Watch on Tue, 4th Mar 2008 11:11 pm 

    Dean,

    Who’s blaming America for Marcos more than we blame Marcos for Marcos?

    I thought we were talking about you thanking America or Pres Reagan more precisely for being able to return home?

    Anyway, didnt you infer that had Reagan or Schultz or Laxalt not instructed Marcos, peaceful people power might not have worked meaning there would have been bloodshed so confirming what you say is BLAMING America for Marcos’ cutting and cutting cleanly?

    Just thought you should have a nice word for people power too after thanking Pres Reagan… is that wrong?

  113. BrianB on Tue, 4th Mar 2008 11:11 pm 

    kabayan, these are not vestiges and they not only reek. Colonial mentality has the Filipino soul in chains.

    Heck, many educated Filipinos don’t even know how to process information in a logical way. Without referencing foreigners, they seem totally helpless.

  114. Manila Bay Watch on Tue, 4th Mar 2008 11:14 pm 

    Re: “My only point here is that there ain’t nothing inherently bloodless about a people power movement. ” — DJB

    Of course not — coudev told you that myself. So far, Philippine people power has been peaceful and that’s rather good news.

  115. nash on Tue, 4th Mar 2008 11:19 pm 

    @brianb

    “many educated Filipinos don’t even know how to process information in a logical way. Without referencing foreigners, they seem totally helpless”

    …and so I quote cicero when….

    Oh god, it’s that word ‘colonial mentality’ again…:D Akala ko ba “we are the world”…I thought good ideas are universal. “Foreigners”, what’s that?

    Please expound.

    cheers
    .

  116. The Equalizer on Tue, 4th Mar 2008 11:20 pm 

    “I will be true to the Constitution and to myself who has been mandated to leave the post when my term ends in 2010,”Gloria Arroyo—Do you believe her?

  117. cvj on Tue, 4th Mar 2008 11:21 pm 

    Since we are into giving credit into the bloodless nature of the original EDSA, i would give more credit to the Armed Forces of the Philippines. Unlike their counterparts in the Chinese People’s Liberation Army (PLA) or in Burma for that matter, they did not fire into the crowd even when ordered.

  118. DJB on Tue, 4th Mar 2008 11:22 pm 

    cvj,
    I agree that “constitutionality” is not more fundamental than democracy. But the challenge to people power ideologues is to convince the people themselves of that. It is an essentially elitist idea that the People don’t really understand the constitution. I think they are largely ignorant of its Letter, that is true. But not its Spirit.

    I have called people power a form of fascism. But it’s really closer to “psychic dentistry.” My living proof of that is Joseph Estrada. For what exactly did people power accomplish but 6 years of people power congratulating itself, when he’s stronger than he ever was now.

    Quod erap demonstrandum.

  119. Manila Bay Watch on Tue, 4th Mar 2008 11:22 pm 

    And DJB, if you really put your head into it, re “But who really saved the Filipinos in 1986?“, technically, the military folks who caved in to popular demand and who refused to roll their tanks on the people on Edsa who were people powering then probably saved the Filipinos in 1986.

    (Now, don’t get on your high horse and ram your Pres Reagan saved the Filipinos discourse, Ok? Absolutely not interested in Pres Reagan’s implicit/explicit last-minute decision to join Filipino people power in 1986.)

    At the end of the day, I think the Filipinos ralistically saved themselves.

  120. Manila Bay Watch on Tue, 4th Mar 2008 11:23 pm 

    Aha, cvj and I are on the same wavelength!

  121. jason born on Tue, 4th Mar 2008 11:29 pm 

    preemptive first strike

    GMA’s chief legal counsel sergio apostol announced this afternoon that the Eo464 was already dead. This latest tact of GMA’s legal zealots is the same ploy they did on the state of rebellion order where GMA revoked it before the Supreme Court could issue its ruling. In this afternoon’s marathon hearing at SC, the comments and questions of the justices seemed going against Neri’s arguments. As justice carpio strongly put it: Neri can’t hide crime.
    with its impending defeat again at the Highest Tribunal, malacañang did a preemptive first strike, hoping that the SC, which issued strong rulings against her previous executive orders, will come out with a modest one since the issue would become moot and academic. If the SC could release its ruling before GMA could revoke it; and the ruling would contain strong comments against Neri’s basis on executive privilege, this will cement the crookedness of Malacañang’s interpretation of our laws and how it used them to cover up the truth.

  122. Manila Bay Watch on Tue, 4th Mar 2008 11:34 pm 

    “which issued strong rulings against her previous executive orders, will come out with a modest one since the issue would become moot and academic.” — Jason

    Wow! That is really more than just pulling the rug from under the Senate’s feet (with all the Senators standing on the rug…)

    Of course, come crunch time, i.e. to face the Senate, Neri will be do-lallying under another sort of EO that will contain prohibitive clauses, “You can’t say this, you can’t say that, nyanyanyanyaaa…”

  123. Manila Bay Watch on Tue, 4th Mar 2008 11:35 pm 

    Legal system as in “paisahan” system (naisahan…)

  124. UP n student on Tue, 4th Mar 2008 11:48 pm 

    There is a thin line between bloodless confrontation between military units and guns blazing.

    In fact, my recollection is that more than half-the-time that Philippine military units faced each other (with a group on the side of the sitting president and another group, opposed), people pulled the trigger.

    And had Marcos made it to Batac as opposed to being conned to a Hawaii luau, who knows how many body bags would have been needed?

  125. Madonna on Tue, 4th Mar 2008 11:51 pm 

    Senator Zubiri according to the ABS-CBN website distributed 450,000 pesos each to every Bohol mayor on Feb. 24 from his pork barrel.

    My oh my, there must be crazy going ons at the Department of Budget these days, plus the coffers of jueteng and drug lords.

  126. TheColdKing on Tue, 4th Mar 2008 11:53 pm 

    BENIGNO, IKAW ANG PRUWEBA NA ANG MASAMANG DAMO, MAHIRAP MAMATAY. SA ISANG MATINONG MUNDO, ANG MGA KATULAD MO AY DAPAT-RAPAT PATAY NA AT NABUBULOK NA SA ILALIM NG LUPA, KASO BUHAY KA PA PERO ANG KALULUWA MO INAAGNAS NA KAHIT NA NASA IBABAW KA PA LANG NG LUPA …

  127. Madonna on Tue, 4th Mar 2008 11:56 pm 

    Since 1986 we have been under the rule of liberal fascists (all that jazz about freedom). They close their eyes on the shenanigans of oligarchs who tend to neutralize the workings of a representative democracy.

  128. BrianB on Tue, 4th Mar 2008 11:57 pm 

    “SA ISANG MATINONG MUNDO, ANG MGA KATULAD MO AY DAPAT-RAPAT PATAY NA AT NABUBULOK NA SA ILALIM NG LUPA, KASO BUHAY KA PA PERO ANG KALULUWA MO INAAGNAS NA KAHIT NA NASA IBABAW KA PA LANG NG LUPA …”

    Maliit talaga ang manoy mo ano, kaya sigaw ka nang sigaw. I hope one day, we can meet.

  129. BrianB on Tue, 4th Mar 2008 11:58 pm 

    I mean, one day me and you will get together.

  130. UP n student on Wed, 5th Mar 2008 12:02 am 

    DJB: I am confused by your use of “fascism”.

    fas·cism Function: noun
    Etymology: Italian fascismo     Date: 1921
    1. often capitalized : a political philosophy, movement, or regime (as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition
    2: a tendency toward or actual exercise of strong autocratic or dictatorial control
    ——————

    I suppose what you are highlighting PeoplePower Philippine style as a tendency or exercise by a minority to dictate its wishes onto a majority.

  131. mlq3 on Wed, 5th Mar 2008 12:06 am 

    jason, don’t celebrate so soon.

    http://newsinfo.inquirer.net/breakingnews/nation/view/20080304-122781/Supreme-Court-suspends-oral-arguments-on-Neri-petition

    latest is that the senate will vote tomorrow on a toothless compromise. neri will appear, but he will not answer three questions:

    1. whether gma followed up the deal with neri

    2. whether gma instructed neri to prioritize the project

    3. what gma instructed neri to do after learning of 200 million peso bribe of abalos.

    also, per the compromise, neri can still invoke executive privilege and if he raises it, senate can question things again before the sc.

    senate votes on whether to accept the compromise tomorrow. obviously, there’s a sense, whether justified or not, that this case will not be decided on its merits by the sc but on the basis of a loyalty vote.

  132. jason born on Wed, 5th Mar 2008 12:09 am 

    what will the people do if the a regime uses the vast resources of the state against its people? Like in the case of Marcos, he used the military to protect him, controlled Congress and our courts to become a rubber stamp of his wishes. If we have a govt like that, are we going to rely on election to change the regime? Dean, Do we have any alternative rather than people power?

  133. cvj on Wed, 5th Mar 2008 12:14 am 

    UPn (at 12:02am), i think DJB is just following the lead of Humpty Dumpty who told Alice (in Wonderland):

    When I use a word,…it means just what I choose it to mean, neither more nor less.’

    ‘Liberal fascism’ means what DJB chooses it to mean, neither more nor less.

  134. jason born on Wed, 5th Mar 2008 12:16 am 

    mlq:

    What the heck. it would be better for the senate not to enter into a compromise with the executive. but im optimistic majority of our senators will reject the three conditions.

  135. Manila Bay Watch on Wed, 5th Mar 2008 12:16 am 

    Mlq3 said March 5th, 2008 at 12:06 am latest is that the senate will vote tomorrow on a toothless compromise. neri will appear, but he will not answer three questions: confirms my suspicion that the much-awaited SC decision on the E whatever is useless…

    Of course, come crunch time, i.e. to face the Senate, Neri will be do-lallying under another sort of EO that will contain prohibitive clauses, “You can’t say this, you can’t say that, nyanyanyanyaaa…”

  136. Manila Bay Watch on Wed, 5th Mar 2008 12:18 am 

    Re: “but im optimistic majority of our senators will reject the three conditions.” — Jason

    But what can they do? Can they arrest and jail Neri if Neri refuses to answer those questions? If they do that, all Neri has to do is feign some heart attack or something and will be treated in a first class hospital paid with taxpayers’ money! Lusot and loko!

  137. Ara on Wed, 5th Mar 2008 12:19 am 

    PLEASE PASS ON: THE LAME “E-MANDIRIGMA” SYNDROME OF SOME LAME BRAINED PINOYS

    Referring to these sites:

    http://gmaresign.blogspot.com/

    http://blacknwhitemovement.blogspot.com/

    http://jenijenjen.blogspot.com/

    Sus, eto nanaman ang mga “e-mandirigma”. This is so LAME. Walang mangyayari sa inyo hanggang INTERNET lang kayo. Kung gusto nyo mag rebolusyon dapat humawak kayo ng mga baril at lumusob sa malacanang hindi yung “blogswarm” na di naman binabasa ni GMA. Ni hindi nyo nga alam kung sino ipapalit niyo kay GMA eh.

    Some say they want De Castro, the Black and White movement (lame brains) say they don’t like De Castro (they advocate GMA and Noli to resign), some say it should be Puno, some say Erap, some say they don’t even know who to replace GMA with but they want her out.

    If you want to be revolutionaries don’t hide behind your blogs and computers. Go out and wield a weapon and attack Malacanang if you are real people like Mao Zedong, Che Guevarra or Ayatollah Khomeini and not a bunch of URKLEs in that show Saved by the Bell. What a bunch of posers and wussy geeks these are na nag-ngangangawa sa blogs. A bunch of whining crybaby CONYO-english speaking (saying “now na”, “now naman”) computer geeks clearly cannot defeat GMA and her forces.

    Tamo si Trillanes naniwala na susuportahan siya ng mga “e-mandirigma” pero ano nangyari? Busy sila sa kaka “blog” at kagagawa ng mga photoshop collage na naglalagay kay Trillanes sa Philippine flag at may mga corning motto. Noong nakitang may mga SWAT na at Marines eh nag stay na lang sa mga computer nila at nang-ngangangawa sa mga blog.

    GMA will remain in power no matter what. The “opposition” people are clueless and have their own agendas which makes their ranks broken and weak.

    Imagine they even say:

    “kung edsa 2 napabagsak natin thru SMS now, naman.
    the president web 2.0 brought down, the president blogging brought down, the first president social media brought down” -daveQ

    Yeah, right. Imagine a bunch of wimpy bloggers and e-mail forwarders saying “now naman” or “now na” facing the PSG? The PSG and PNP will jut laugh and GMA will just send in her janitors to chase the “e-mandirigma” weaklings away with brooms.

  138. UP n student on Wed, 5th Mar 2008 12:20 am 

    The Senate and the Presidency really should follow parliamentary procedures. :wink:

  139. Manila Bay Watch on Wed, 5th Mar 2008 12:23 am 

    So, what’s left for people to do? Ta…da… People power!

    Don’t forget to take DJB with you! As cvj once said, “Besides, who will protect the right flank?

  140. mlq3 on Wed, 5th Mar 2008 12:25 am 

    jason, let’s hope so. the lawyers can inform us if there’s been a case, before, where such an important decision resulted in a compromise offer.

    i’m reminded of marcos’ sept. 24, 1972 diary entry:

    http://www.quezon.ph/?p=1515

  141. Cocoy's Delight on Wed, 5th Mar 2008 12:26 am 

    CBCP or any religious groups is non functional to change the Pidalism government The church are not the only builders of hope in the minds of our people. Politicians needed the help of preachers, priest and cults to subvert and change our lawful form of government..Preachers have been used by politicians to assist them in its harassment and plunder. Politicians offered preachers a bribe, of big bucks, and most preachers accepted the bribe. Politicians cannot propagate their false information and lies if preachers teach the truths we find in Holy Scripture. Our Bibles give us a record of the rise and fall of many different governments.The Bible gives us the story of many great men who challenged evil and wicked governments.Many of God’s servants were threatened, imprisoned, thrown into fiery furnaces, thrown to the lions and etc. when they refused to obey politician-created laws.

    Cardinal Rosales churches of today, people are taught, our government is a higher power to which we, the people, are subject. People should support a government which does good and maintains justice and order. Rosales and Pidal have much in common. Both have become professional liars where success is measured by how many followers they have. Both are confidence manipulator who play games with people’s mind. Basic freedom has always been denied because they wanted control. Pidal and church have used each other at the expense of the people.

    As long as politicians can bombard us with their platitudes about doing good and never be challenged on the immoral means they use the size and power of this Pidalism government will never be controlled. For there can be no decline in the calls upon government to do something about such things as poverty, the homeless, the aged, and the sick until the force and violence that must support such governmental actions is recognized and morally condemned. We the Filipinos need to get our act together in condemning the illegal act of Pidalism and the entire structure of her government. Not the bishop of the Cardinal!

  142. jason born on Wed, 5th Mar 2008 12:26 am 

    manila:

    after the senate rejects the compromise, they can wait for the ruling of the sc. if the ruling is against neri’s petition, then the senate can arrest and undress him during the investigation. :-)

  143. Madonna on Wed, 5th Mar 2008 12:27 am 

    ‘Liberal fascism’ means what DJB chooses it to mean, neither more nor less.
    – cvj

    I think there is weight to the term. Since 1986, liberalism after the fall of the dictatorship took over, with its emphasis on rights and freedom (i.e. especially the freedom of the press) and reached its fascistic height in Edsa Dos when an upper-class led civil society, together with the middle class and the military brought down a duly constituted Estrada government.

    The operative connotation is when it is contrasted with liberal democracy which is what we have theoretically. However, our form of liberalism tends to be fascistic since our social foundation is made up of oligarchs lording it over the majority of the people. Oligarchs have a quasi-legal hold of our economy and political system. Philipine oligarchs are the purveyors of western style liberalism, with their focus on economic rights, and political freedom.

    When power of the few meets liberal thought, you have liberal fascism.

    My hope is that people power this time would led to a real liberal democracy.

  144. cvj on Wed, 5th Mar 2008 12:27 am 

    I have called people power a form of fascism. But it’s really closer to “psychic dentistry.” My living proof of that is Joseph Estrada. For what exactly did people power accomplish but 6 years of people power congratulating itself, when he’s stronger than he ever was now.

    Quod erap demonstrandum. – DJB

    I take it that you are using ‘proof’ loosely (in a Humpty-Dumpty sort of way) unless you are able to show that all possible (or at least probable) paths since People Power would have led to Erap’s freedom.

    As i see it, there was nothing inevitable about Erap’s pardon. That was Gloria’s decision. There was also nothing inevitable about Gloria’s cheating in 2004 nor in her decision to run for President (after promising not to). Those were also her decisions. People power did make her accession to the Presidency possible, but our mistake was not to hold her to the same standards that we held Erap.

  145. jason born on Wed, 5th Mar 2008 12:28 am 

    while waiting for the outcome, another beer please.

  146. Manila Bay Watch on Wed, 5th Mar 2008 12:30 am 

    “My hope is that people power this time would led to a real liberal democracy.” — Madonna

    Same here!

  147. Manila Bay Watch on Wed, 5th Mar 2008 12:31 am 

    That will be a GnT for me please…

  148. Mita on Wed, 5th Mar 2008 12:31 am 

    alternatives. how about the other institutions of government? there’s also the opposition…these problems we have are political after all. our penchant for people power goes back, not just to 1986 but to our culture. People power has its good and dangerous points all reflective of the good and bad in our culture.

    at this point, all i can see is EMOTIONS, our hard headedness to face reality, getting into the chest-thumping and fang-showing mode when with the pack, bahala na, the lack of foresight due to our proclivity for taking shortcuts, AND our own disregard for the law when we are in our own country but so diligently follow when we are abroad.

    And we have the nerve to ask, “Bakit hindi ganito sa Pilipinas?” Kasi sa Pilipinas, hindi naman tayo sumusunod. okay, that was unnecessary…i went overboard but what the heck…bahala na!

  149. cvj on Wed, 5th Mar 2008 12:38 am 

    Madonna, i agree with your definition (more or less). What i disagree with is DJB’s assertion that “People Power is nothing but liberal fascism.“. Rather Orwellian.

  150. Mita on Wed, 5th Mar 2008 12:39 am 

    madonna, really now…who are you expecting to bring us that? one shining example of Filipino genius or maybe a genie? wishes are great but the reality is, it didn’t take us overnight to get to where we are and to get to a liberal democracy, which not everyone may want btw, it will take a lot of hard work, from all of us who want it. we start by facing reality and grow up then get down to the dirty work.

    2010 is almost here and elections will be as dirty and controversial as the last….if we don’t do something about it ourselves.

  151. Bencard on Wed, 5th Mar 2008 12:41 am 

    i thought i’ve heard and seen every hubris in philippine politics. now comes these 60-odd “former cabinet members” calling themselves “la salle 60″, DEMANDING the sitting president to do, or not to do, certain specified acts within one week. what??? of all the presumptuousness that only a warped pinoy mind can concoct! what if “gloria” declines (politely or otherwise) to comply? will they summon a horde from hell to castigate her? obviously, they are neither threatening “people power” revolution, nor impeachment, because they have tried doing both ad nauseam and failed again and again and again.

    some people, apparently in their insane hatred for the president, have become incapable of distinguishing fantasy from reality. these are supposed to be individuals who, at one time or another, held responsible positions in the government (some through merit rather than patronage) and arguably have a modicum of understanding.

    wishing the president to do, or not to do, some things is one thing. but “demanding” and setting a “deadline” for compliance is another. the former could be reasonable, the latter is well… PRESUMPTUOUS!

  152. Mita on Wed, 5th Mar 2008 12:41 am 

    shit, can this be all entertainment fodder fed by the politicians – to get people’s attention from what we really ought to be focusing on?

  153. Bert on Wed, 5th Mar 2008 12:42 am 

    Kabayan: “Heavy vestiges of colonial mentality still reeks.”

    “My, what perfect English you have!–DJB

    My English is worse, but I’m a guitarist so me sure I can play the guitar (not the airy kind) better than some guys. Therefore DJB is out of context. Cheers!

  154. mlq3 on Wed, 5th Mar 2008 12:42 am 

    mita, of course you and i can’t do a damned thing about who the new comelec chairman and commissioners will be. that’s part of the gma legacy some are content to keep.

  155. Mita on Wed, 5th Mar 2008 12:46 am 

    bencard, wala naman kasi talaga yung “respect for the office” na tinatawag sa western countries dito sa Pilipinas…dito lahat personalan.

    Just look at how it’s coming out now that Cory said GMA was “too pragmatic” and wouldn’t make a good president or something….she wasn’t even president yet. Last I looked pragmatic was good…but ayun, ngayon dirty word na.

  156. UP n student on Wed, 5th Mar 2008 12:48 am 

    DJB: I suppose you use FASCISM like Robert Paxton (author: The Anatomy of Fascism) who provided a working definition of fascism:

    ‘A form of political behavior marked by obsessive preoccupation with community decline, humiliation or victimhood and by compensatory cults of unity, energy and purity, in which a mass-based party of committed nationalist militants, working in uneasy but effective collaboration with traditional elites, abandons democratic liberties and pursues with redemptive violence and without ethical or legal restraints goals of internal cleansing and external expansion.’

  157. TheColdKing on Wed, 5th Mar 2008 12:48 am 

    PEOPLE WHO TRADE LIBERTY FOR SECURITY DESERVE NEITHER.
    CRAVEN SCUM, YOUR TIME WILL COME!
    ALL OF YOU WILL BE PLACED UP AGAINST THE WALL WHEN THE REVOLUTION COMES!

  158. Madonna on Wed, 5th Mar 2008 12:48 am 

    madonna, really now…who are you expecting to bring us that?

    Mita,

    I am just as much as a liberal and a democrat, meaning I believe that the people are the bedrock a real democracy. No I am not expecting a genie or a genius. That’s why I am just as cautious of a few groups or people leading us to rah-rah land. Our salvation is within us, collectively, we the people.

    In case you have not notice in previous threads, I have consistently advocated people power within constitutional grounds.

    And sorry, I am not one of those people who want to wait for 2010 to resolve the crisis.

  159. UP n student on Wed, 5th Mar 2008 12:52 am 

    ColdKing: when the revolution comes, both sides will possess .223, 7.62 or .308 long guns. Bolo-wielders will the first to fall.

    The losers get placed against the walls. The agents of the winners get to aim and fire.

  160. Mita on Wed, 5th Mar 2008 12:55 am 

    mlq, sa dami ng abogado sa pilipinas, sa dami ng miron sa pilipinas, wala tayong magagawa? erap was convicted due to the efforts of a few, very dedicated people. what can the efforts of more than a few in every island dedicated people do? even if we don’t agree on a lot of things, we have both have to agree that change is imminent because that is what the times call for…

    in the last US presidential elections there were groups of volunteer lawyers who were available in most states making sure no voters were marginalized and any questions or problems that arose were addressed…

    what we have now is paid patronage pa din. why does it flourish? because there are no willing volunteers…

  161. Mita on Wed, 5th Mar 2008 12:56 am 

    liberal democrat…in the Philippine context, please define that for me Madonna.

  162. Mita on Wed, 5th Mar 2008 12:57 am 

    coldking, chest-thumping….

  163. Mita on Wed, 5th Mar 2008 12:59 am 

    BS about GMA legacy …noon pa..panahon pa ng lolo mo at lolo ko elections were crooked…it’s part of the culture!

    that is the reality I’m saying we cannot face to this very day…

  164. mlq3 on Wed, 5th Mar 2008 1:01 am 

    mita, it was qualified. pragmatic per se isn’t necessarily bad. “too pragmatic” is what’s bad.

  165. UP n student on Wed, 5th Mar 2008 1:02 am 

    That should be “Some losers. and also some winners… will have fled the country. Some loser-losers will get placed against the walls. Agents of the winners will aim and fire.”

    Better not lose, ColdKing.

    [PS: Odds are that some civilian collateral damage will need to be buried.]

  166. TheColdKing on Wed, 5th Mar 2008 1:02 am 

    PEOPLE WHO SACRIFICE LIBERTY FOR SECURITY DESERVE NEITHER AND LOSE BOTH. – BEN FRANKLIN

    THE TREE OF LIBERTY HAS TO BE WATERED REGULARLY WITH THE BLOOD OF TYRANTS AND PATRIOTS.

    TO MAKE OMELETS YOU HAVE TO BREAK EGGS.

    EVERY GREAT NATION HAS HAD A BLOODY REVOLUTION.

    PARANG MGA PRO-GMA, FUCK THEM AND FUCK THEIR BULLSHIT STRONG ECONOMY, ANONG SILBI NG “MALAKAS” (DAW-RAW) NA EKONOMIYA KUNG NINANAKAWAN NAMAN ANG KABAN NG BAYAN AT BINABAON TAYO SA KAUTANGAN HANGGANG SA KATAPUSAN NG MUNDO?!

    ANG MAGANDA NAMAN SA MALAKAS NA PESO AY NAKAKABAYAD TAYO NG UTANG “NATIN” PERO SINO BA ANG UMUUTANG IN THE FIRST PLACE ABER ? EH DI ANG MGA PIDAL AT ANG MGA KAMPON NILA!

    MGA GAGO TALAGA KAYONG LAHAT, WALA KAYONG BRAINS O BALLS O PAREHO KAYA LAHAT TAYO AY LUMULUBOG NA SA KUMONOY NG KASAYSAYAN AT PATI ANG MGA NATITIRANG DESENTENG TAO AY MALULUNOD NA DAHIL SA KATANGAHAN AT KADUWAGAN NINYONG LAHAT!

    PARANG TALAGA KAYONG MGA LOYALISTA NI MARCOS , NINANAKAWAN O KAYA NINAKAWAN NA NGA, NAKATAWA O TUMATAWA PA ! – POLGAS

  167. mlq3 on Wed, 5th Mar 2008 1:03 am 

    mita: re patronage. one reason it may not have been eradicated is that the case for why it should be dispensed with by most people hasn’t been properly made.

  168. mlq3 on Wed, 5th Mar 2008 1:06 am 

    mita, not so. even if you assume *mos* elections were crooked, not *all* were, and indeed, some types of elections may have been more crooked than most. but what’s definite is that the fraud majorly mutated in 1992, was a failure in 1998 (only because of estrada’s popularity), returned with a vengeance in 2004. the fraud of the past, even the most notorious elections of 1949, 1969 and 1986, are small potatoes compared to the sophistication of the cheating in 1992 and 2004.

    i don’t doubt people will put up a stiff fight vs. fraud. but with all the major appointments gma will be making between now and 2010, she will be firmly entrenching people who will perpetuate her style of governance. go through the list: comelec chairman, commissioners, supreme court justices, civil service commissioner, commission on audit commissioner…. etc.

    of course its up to you if you will have confidence not only in the appointees, but the appointing authority.

  169. mlq3 on Wed, 5th Mar 2008 1:07 am 

    cold king tigilan mo na yan.

  170. nash on Wed, 5th Mar 2008 1:11 am 

    The edited version:

    some people, apparently in their insane Love for the president, have become incapable of distinguishing fantasy from reality.

  171. Mita on Wed, 5th Mar 2008 1:15 am 

    too pragmatic for who? for the one who made the judgment?

  172. Cocoy's Delight on Wed, 5th Mar 2008 1:17 am 

    Pumapapel na si Noli at lagi niyang sinasabi sa English na siya raw ang Constituitional successor kapag mabokya ang banka na si Gloria.Ngunit bago natin sakyan at i-angkla ang reserbang goma sa senaryong ito ay maigi na atin munang suriin at bigyan ng ganap na makauring disposisyon ang mga pangyayari upang hindi tayo malito kasama ng ating mga kababayan na nagtapos lamang sa mababang paaralan para hindi uli sila mahatak at malansi ni Kabayan.

    Ang Panawagang “Gloria Resign”sa teritoryo ni Binay ay tumatagos hanggang sa pinakamababang lebel ng masa at mga opisyales ng gobyerno na parang siniko sa dibdib ng pitong demonyo dahil kartada singko ang ang naihirit na baraha.Pero ang naging siste ng rally ay watak-watak ang opposisyon at hindi konsolado, sila ang mga burges na oposisyon o ang paksyon ng naghaharing uri at iba na may binabalak na humalili.Ng umakyat na ang CO-RAP sa entablado pinalakpakan ang dilaw na bistida ni Cory at nag walk-out naman pala ang kilusang sa Itim at sa Puti ng nag-inglish na si Asiong Salonga at nasapawan ang bidang si Jun Lozada.Kaya tuloy naisip ko,ano kaya ang dapat tayaan sa beto-beto? Ngunit ang naiwang maraming pangkat ay nagkakaisa sa kanilang kagyat na panawagan na dapat umalis si GMA sa poder ng kapangyarihan.Nandito ngayon ang nabuldigat na problema kung ang pagpapatalsik kay GMA kapalit si Noli De Castro gamit ang “succesion excuse” ng proseso ng kasalukuyang umiiral na konstitusyon ay tutol si Loren Sinta dahil kasabwat daw ni Gloria ang tiga hila ng lubid ng Nazareno sa pandaraya kaya siya nanalo.Ibig sabihin ang kandila ng dalawa ay kukurap-kurap na o kaya’y ang pagiging kumare at kumpare ay naglakbay na sa ere.

    Kaya ang kumapre ko na nag-attend ng rally ay ganito ang sinabi- —-

    Nakakainis ang nangyayari ngayon. Kung minsan naiisip ko, impossible ng umunlad pa ang Pilipinas at naisip ko rin na kumuha ng tourist bisa at mag TNT sa America dahil hindi pa natutpad ang wish ko na ang Philippines to becomes US state. Pero imposible iyun pare!Una tinutulan ni Quezon,sa totoo lang okey na ang Pinas.when it came to its people sa dami ng magagaling sa atin.Lalo nasa politika sa kongreso nand’yan si Tony Diaz na maraming naipasang batas,kung sipag lang naman sa pagiging kargador nand’yan si Way Kurat, at kung sa pirmahan lang experto si Iggy Arroyo, d’yan ang dalawa niyang tungaw na pamangkin na mahilig mag-import ng kabayo. Pag matuloy pa ang election sa 2010 ay may showdown sina Willie at Joey sa pagka-senador. Kung batas lang naman ang pag-uusapan ay tulo laway lang kay Gordon at Ping lalo na kapag bagong gupit si Bianzon at magkatabi sila ni Pimentel nasisingkol ang utak ni Mirrian at nasusunog ang upuan nina Lito at Bong.. ……

    Kaya nga pare! Lintik at pesting gobyerno ito,iyung sahod ko sa isang buwan ay kukulangin kung pakakainin ko ang junior at neneng ko sa Jolibee, tapos may evat pang babayaran.Nakuba na ang likod ng kumander ko sa paglalabandera at mataas na ang kanyang balikat dahil kapos sa pambili ng bitamina at hindi pa naaalisan ng problema,mas problema pa kung mamatay mas malaki ang gastos dahil iyung mga nag to-tongits sa lamayan ay malakas sa paborita at kape,Mas makakatipid pa pag nabubuhay dahil tatlong supot ng noodles para sa pananghalian ay mura kesa sa bayad ng punerarya.Ang sapatos ko ay nabutas na ang swelas,sayang Nike pa naman na pasalubong sa akin ng pinsang kong balikbayan kaya lagi kong iniingatan,itong gobyerno ni 4×4 milyones ang kinukurakot.Kailan kaya bibitawan ni Arroyo ang Bola?

  173. Madonna on Wed, 5th Mar 2008 1:17 am 

    liberal democrat…in the Philippine context, please define that for me Madonna.

    Mita,

    Did you just read my previous comment re: liberal fascism and liberal democracy.

    “The operative connotation is when it is contrasted with liberal democracy which is what we have theoretically. However, our form of liberalism tends to be fascistic since our social foundation is made up of oligarchs lording it over the majority of the people. Oligarchs have a quasi-legal hold of our economy and political system. Philipine oligarchs are the purveyors of western style liberalism, with their focus on economic rights, and political freedom.

    When power of the few meets liberal thought, you have liberal fascism.”

    Simply, mita, it means that when we have a genuine liberal democracy when the power of the people are not just exercised during elections. Elitists and oligarchs are the not the real power holders, the majority of the people == as in the United States, the middle class who constitute the majority are the great power holders. We have a niggling middle class here in the country.

    This influence of the majority is felt when their representatives for example in Congress do their jobs, for example, when public opinion says majority favor that GMA be impeached, the representatives follow the will of the people without being prodded to. In a real liberal democracy, leaders follow the will of the people in terms of economic policies, etc, not elitists and oligarchs, because they know that they will be held accountable during elections.

    Another example is that Edsa Dos if we were really a working liberal democracy would not have happened because Erap was a duly elected President, elected by the majority of the people and he was not yet impeached by the Senate but he was ousted. And oh by the way, I was one of those vociferous Edsa Dos veterans.

  174. Aames on Wed, 5th Mar 2008 1:18 am 

    Sonny: “eto na naman tayo, media na naman ang sinisisi. we don’t have a perfect media in this country but to nail them on the cross while the real sinners are laughing on the sidelines? give me a break. sila ba ang dapat binabatikos habang ang mga nakaupo tinatrato with kid gloves? i simply don’t get it. i read the blogs, i saw the news items on TV last nite and read the major broadsheets, i am an avid follower of the news and i believe statements like ‘The media actually sends reporters to cover people… walking in formation? Anak ng… Enough, pwede ba?’ (eh bakit di ka magalit sa mga may pakana ng unity walks? nakita ko sa news kagabi na umuulan pa kahapon kaya di natuloy ang unity walk ni gloria, nabasa ang media, gusto ba nila yun o task nila yun na dapat gawin?) and ‘The media in this country will cover anything’ are quite unfair. the ones who covered them are reporters assigned in the presidential beat, they are there to cover whatever happens in the said beat. if they will be selective, di ba parang shortchanged tayo sa karapatan natin sa impormasyon? besides, manolo had always mentioned here in his blog that it is important to see what’s happening in the halls of power dahil dun natin ibabase ang ating opinyon sa mga isyu. ilagay nyo anger nyo sa tamang kakainisan.”

    Isn’t the mainstream non-government media (most of them, anyway, including ABS-CBN, GMA, ABC, PDI, Philippine Star) controlled/influenced by the oligarchs?

  175. mlq3 on Wed, 5th Mar 2008 1:20 am 

    mita, yes, too pragmatic from the point of view of the one venturing the opinion. that’s what was sought, that’s what was given. an opinion.

  176. Mita on Wed, 5th Mar 2008 1:20 am 

    mlq3, so you see it happening…and all you can ask is for gloria to resign? which a lot of people have been saying is highly improbable without any legal basis…even your beloved bishops are saying so….

    so now, can you truly and honestly say it is helping the situation any?

    from now till 2010, what if we focus on all those appointments, those underhanded moves that we know will derail the elections in 2010…don’t you think we can achieve a lot more?

  177. Mita on Wed, 5th Mar 2008 1:21 am 

    an opinion then and now a publicity stunt…

  178. mlq3 on Wed, 5th Mar 2008 1:22 am 

    cocoy, hindi nag walk-out ang bnw.

  179. Mita on Wed, 5th Mar 2008 1:28 am 

    So was I, Madonna. Back then, I convinced myself the majority had spoken and Erap was ousted. Now that I look back, I see it was nothing but mob rule. It was the emotional reaction of a disgruntled public against a disgruntling Senate. The drama should have reached its finale…the proper ending.

  180. mlq3 on Wed, 5th Mar 2008 1:30 am 

    mita, if you don’t let up on the pressure there is a whole lot more you will have to clean up after and if she goes. i think it has helped the situation plenty. if people hadn’t been making these calls you would have a unicameral single party parliament under kampi preparing for a gma extension to 2020. that she steps down having no other choice, if it happens, in 2010 is achievement enough, that she does so before then would possibly be the salvation of this country.

    but yes, we could have just had peace and quiet until 2020 with no one the wiser about everything going on, from jonas burgos to … well, you know the whole catalog of wrongdoing by now.

    and if we focus on those appointments, without saying anything else, what will it achieve? even with sustained criticism the president only relents when she actually gets scared. but otherwise, she will merilly appoint whoever she wants, knowing she holds the bayonets and the cash. which keeps the house in her pocket, and governors, and mayors, and generals, and yes, even our beloved bishops.

    you do not need a legal basis to ask a president to resign. you only need what lawyers call a moral certainty she is unfit for office. your legal basis is what is required to deprive her of life, liberty, and property. but depriving someone of office, which isn’t a god-given right, is something the citizenry can do at any time for reasons unrelated to what passes for the law.

  181. Madonna on Wed, 5th Mar 2008 1:32 am 

    Publicity stunt? — mita

    Care to explain?

    Oh if you were referring to the “I was an Edsa Dos veteran”, oh dearie what a judgemental person you are. That was a point I made just so would not mistake me for an Estrada supporter. Shall we say, it’s really hard to explain to some people who sometimes can’t go beyond the surface of things.

    And say, this is the Philippines, not America so don’t sit on a high horse about volunteerism and charity. So an unsolicited advice, be pragmatic, like GMA.

  182. Mita on Wed, 5th Mar 2008 1:34 am 

    Madonna, btw you defined liberal democracy but not a liberal democrat in the Philippine context…

    you said if we truly had a working liberal democracy, EDSA 2 shouldn’t have happened…so why take it out on this president then? she who we installed after EDSA 2? are you saying the system is broken? if that is so…then why are we at each other’s throats about changing the system?

  183. Mita on Wed, 5th Mar 2008 1:36 am 

    not you! the “pragmatic” once an opinion and now used as cannon fodder – if it wasn’t personal i would have no issue with it.

  184. Mita on Wed, 5th Mar 2008 1:39 am 

    let me clarify that so you don’t take it the wrong way…that reply about the publicity stunt was meant for mlq3 re the opinion of Cory Aquino of GMA as being too pragmatic…

  185. Mita on Wed, 5th Mar 2008 1:43 am 

    oh yes, this is the Philippines where everyone projects to be intelligentsia or CEO and expect “others” to do the dirty work….

    there is dignity in labor, that’s how you get things done. if you have a problem with “America” work it out yourself. there’s good and bad in every culture….

  186. Madonna on Wed, 5th Mar 2008 1:45 am 

    Mita dearest,

    Plase accept my sincerest apologies! Ekk mali, we are getting too heated with this crisis and we are on each other’s throat now. Hay sorry talaga.

    I am liberal democrat in the sense that I believe that majority of the people must have a say on our political system, of course all in the context of rights and freedom i.e. in the current political crisis, I am rather leery of a few groups on the lead once again like what happened in Edsa Dos (like for example in the Feb 29 rally we saw Cory and Erap). People power must be the clicher — it should be about the people, not power of the few. I still believe that an impeachment is the right way to go.

  187. Cocoy's Delight on Wed, 5th Mar 2008 1:45 am 

    MlQ3
    Kung hindi pala nag-walk out ang BnW.Mali iyung impormasyon ko.Paki-edit na lang na hindi sila nag-walk out,Please! at edit ko rin yong post ko sa blog ko.

  188. Madonna on Wed, 5th Mar 2008 1:48 am 

    Mita,

    I don’t have a problem with America. I rather like its liberal democracy, where people are really treated equal.

  189. mlq3 on Wed, 5th Mar 2008 1:51 am 

    cocoy, sinabi kasi ni boy saycon na may nag walkout. mayroon nga pero hindi lahat ng binanggit ni saycon. kami, hindi nag walk out. sa mga nag complain, ipininaliwanag ni mayor binay na gusto niyang patunayan sa mga nagdududang sisispot sila cory at erap. kaya pinaakyat niya sa entablado. sa orihinal na pinagkasunduan sa mga miting para sa rally, may agreement na walang magsasalitang politiko para ma focus ang rali sa kabataan. tinanggap ng grupo namin ang paliwanag ni binay, tapos na ang usapan.

    siyempre naman di lahat ng mga nandoon ay tumatanggap sa mga lider ng ibang mga grupo doon. ngunit ang focus ng rali ay si gma at di naman tayo dapat maligaw sa puntong iyon.

  190. Cocoy's Delight on Wed, 5th Mar 2008 1:58 am 

    MLQ3;
    Thanks for the clarification.I edit my blog.Inayos ko na.

  191. BAYANI98 on Wed, 5th Mar 2008 2:01 am 

    Sometimes, we have to make a deal with the Lesser Evil for the Greater Good, and the current Administration is definitely the Root of All Evil in the Philippines! ( or is that China? :-O ) …

  192. Bencard on Wed, 5th Mar 2008 2:07 am 

    mlq3, i know you are basing your response to mita, at 1:06am, on your readings of historical accounts (versions) concerning comparative election frauds of various era. this is so because you are too young to have direct, personal knowledge of elections prior to marcos vs. cory.

    i’m not that old but perhaps old enough to know, first-hand, most of what transpired in the post-war national elections. as far as i can remember, the first coining of the phrase “guns, goons and gold” was made during the presidential campaign between elpidio quirino and jose p. laurel in 1949. in the 1953 campaign between quirino and magsaysay, the charges that the dead, the birds and the bees voted, in addition to guns, gold and goons, were much ballyhooed. in the 1957 contest between garcia and yulo, the same charges were made. isolated complaints of cheating in the garcia vs. macapagal election were also present but not pursued because the challenger (macapagal) won over the incumbent.

    the incidence of cheating prior to marcos were certainly no “small potatoes” except when compared to the mother of all fraudulent elections of 1986.

    “sophistication” on the alleged cheating in 1992 and 2004 was probably in the means employed – “dagdag-bawas”, rather than “guns, goons and gold”, “flying voters”, dead men voting, and the birds and the bees.

  193. grd on Wed, 5th Mar 2008 3:06 am 

    gusto ko pumalit kay gloria sa 2010 hindi lang galing sa senado. ayoko nang biglang sumulpot sa politika dahil may pangalan sa showbiz.
    gusto ko galing sa probinsya at may successful experience sa local governments… mita

    kung galing sa probinsya, I nominate duterte from davao. everyone knows naman kung gaano kaayos ang davao. palagay ko naman kaya niyang disiplinahin mga tao sa maynila. ala ring problema sa kanya yang mga rally-rally. papayagan kang magrally ng walang permit hanggang gusto mo basta huwag ka lang makakasagabal sa publiko ibig sabihin orderly dapat ang rally. kung diyan naman sa maynila pipili, puede na rin si bayani fernando. mukhang pareho naman ang style ng dalawa. priority ay peace and order.

    but we know na walang showbiz appeal ang mga eto kaya walang pag-asa sa majority. take the case na lang ng yumaong si haydee yorac. mas malamang piliin pa ng karamihan si kabayang noli.

    >>>>>>>>>>>>>

    DAY 6

  194. Bencard on Wed, 5th Mar 2008 3:11 am 

    mita, i agree with you. the clamor for gma’s resignation is an attempt at free lunch. her enemies want her to hand the presidency to them on a silver platter, “make it easy” for them to grab power, under all threats of vengeance, physical violence and psychological intimidations.

    time and again, gma has shown strength and moral courage to stand up against these unrelenting onslaught. by her actions in preserving her presidency, she is safeguarding our democratic ideals and institutions, which rapacious groups would trash, trample and discard at whim to suit their selfish ends.

    for as long as there are people in our society that regard our constitution, our laws, our government, our democratic agencies and instrumentalities, as throw-aways, we will never have stability no matter how much economic gains we achieve.

  195. DevilsAdvc8 on Wed, 5th Mar 2008 3:22 am 

    From now on, we ought to demand that all people power results be ratified by the People at plebscite!

    nice call! but isn’t that just the same as *gasp* snap elections?

    so djb, can you say “snap elections” at the same time with “liberal fascism?”

    oh yeah, pogroms still the way to go. call me anytime you need someone to lead it :D
    i’ll whip up my list and roast them alive one by one.

    pressure point event: if the administration attempts to revive Charter Change

    jesus. that one’s a no-brainer. of course charter change will be revived again. kelangan pa bang i-memorize yan?

  196. maginoo on Wed, 5th Mar 2008 3:35 am 

    bencard, but precisely the problem is the perception that the game has been fixed, the referees have been bought, so the only option is a walkout.

    why would i play by the rules if the arbiters of the game are all stacked up against me judging from previous contests?

    but of course, there are other players who would want a walkout so that they can call the shots in the next game.

  197. grd on Wed, 5th Mar 2008 4:08 am 

    mlq3, i was able to watch your show and i like that team-rp group you featured. that’s the kind of advocacy group i want to support. you seemed to welcome their stand (i believe it’s what other commenters here want also) although it differs from that being pushed by your BnW group.

  198. Bencard on Wed, 5th Mar 2008 4:11 am 

    maginoo, there’s the rub. perception, perception. why not wake up to reality and obey the result of “due process”, after the “game” is thoroughly scrutinized according to the the pre-determined rules? why change the rules after the game is played and invalidate the result?

    in the philippines, nothing is resolved because no one would accept defeat. the most over-used word “closure” has no meaning because for the people paying lip service to it, closure means victory for him/herself, or of his/her interest or point of view.

    if the process is defective, change it in a legal way but only before the game is played. losers must “lose”. victors must win!

  199. DinaPinoy on Wed, 5th Mar 2008 5:01 am 

    At the end of the day, I think the Filipinos ralistically saved themselves.

    this is so true. kasi isa sa traits natin yan.

    the following joke explains what i mean:

    There was this good old barber in a city in the United States . One day a florist went to him for a haircut. After the cut, he wanted to pay the barber but the barber replied, “I don’t accept money from you. I’m doing community service.” The florist was happy and left the barbershop.

    The next morning when the barber opened his shop, there was a “thank you” card and a dozen roses waiting at his door.

    The following day, a policeman went for a haircut and he also wanted to pay the barber after the cut. But the barber replied, “I don’t accept money from you. I’m doing community service.” The cop was happy and left the barbershop.

    The next morning when the barber opened his shop, there is a “thank you” card and a dozen freshly baked donuts waiting at his door.

    On the third day, a Filipino software engineer went for a haircut. He also wanted to pay the barber. But the barber also replied,” I’m sorry. I don’t accept money from you. I’m doing community service.” The Filipino software engineer was happy and left.

    The following morning when the barber opened his shop, he had a big surprise! Guess what he found!

    There were a dozen FILIPINOS waiting for free haircuts ! ! ! ! ! !

  200. UP n student on Wed, 5th Mar 2008 5:14 am 

    Question: why would i play by the rules if the arbiters of the game are all stacked up against me judging from previous contests?

    Some answers: (1) When the game will be played with or without you. (2) To make real what is feared so that the next set of arguments will be over facts versus speculation.
    (3) To let reality come into being to be in a position to count.
    (4) To be a martyr to the cause.
    (5) You can’t win if you don’t play.

  201. nash on Wed, 5th Mar 2008 7:23 am 

    “she is safeguarding our democratic ideals and institutions”

    Now this statement, I can’t let pass.

    Under GMA, there have been more extrajudicial killings of activists and journalists, than all post-Marcos presidents combined.

    How the fuck is that ’safeguarding’!!!!!!

  202. benign0 on Wed, 5th Mar 2008 8:08 am 

    shit, can this be all entertainment fodder fed by the politicians – to get people’s attention from what we really ought to be focusing on? — Mita

    THis is EXACTLY what it is.

    Politicians are taking advantage of the generally vacuous nature of the Pinoy mind to divert energies on shortcuts and away from the hard work. Hard work consisting of:

    (1) working the processes
    (2) evaluating people and circumstances critically and objectively
    (3) refining the processes

    From the perspective of the average Third World mind, you need a solid bedrock of education and intellectual maturity to do all of the above.

    But from the perspective of a the average First World mind, doing all of the above three is second nature and taken for granted.

    I wrote the following in an article called “Three misconceptions about democracy that Filipinos were led to believe” back in 2003:

    this whole “love of freedom” sloganeering associated with the practice of “democracy” is the work of a political machine averse to accountability. The point of democracy is not freedom as many of us were foolishly led to believe. The point of democracy is the practice of a system that enables us to hold our leaders to account. One can therefore understand why this, by now, puzzling obssession with “freedom” is prevalent today. Who else but our politicians are the biggest trumpeters of the “freedom” we enjoy under “democracy”?

    See the full article here:
    http://www.geocities.com/benign0/4-00_Leaders/freedom.html

    Kung baga, politicians would like the masses to focus on perverting freedom so that their own inability to work with due processes can be masked or swept under the rug.

    The masa for their part, in their infinite capacity to absorb misguidance, troop to moronic street rallies virtually on command from the usual architects of distraction from institutional process — those who trumpet “freedom” while ignoring the disciplines and rigour that make that freedom POSSIBLE.

  203. Bencard on Wed, 5th Mar 2008 8:09 am 

    and who the hell do you think you are? so what if you “can’t let it pass”? it stands, whether you like it or not.

    do you have any proof that gma is personally responsible for all that alleged killings? authorities tasked to investigate and bring guilty parties to justice are doing what they are supposed to do.

    pgma is resisting all attempts to gut the constitution and the laws by enemies of her government. to use your own language, that’s “how the f..ck” democracy is being safeguarded.

  204. Mita on Wed, 5th Mar 2008 8:34 am 

    benigno, it’s not the masa joining the parliament of the streets. a big chunk of the masa gave up on it after realizing it didn’t help them.

    re presidents in this country. every president na lang in our country after marcos, was accused of the same things as this president is being accused of. i remember during FVR’s time everyone said he was going to declare martial law, he was going to change the constitution and make himself president forever….that didn’t come to pass. even jdv is no longer speaker of the house, something I never thought I’d see during this administration…

    where is this coming from? is it our own paranoia that’s putting us where we are – time and time again?

  205. ramrod on Wed, 5th Mar 2008 8:48 am 

    GMA has to go, period.

    If she still makes it to 2010 and gracefully exits, well and good. All these political noise coming out “under her watch” whether the Gloria supporters like it or not is her mess, being the leader the weight of responsibility is on her shoulders, she asked for it when she ran for office. Anyway, she cannot function effectively under such conditions.

    Business will go on inspite of all these noise, but it would be a lot better if we finally settle down with a new set of leaders who we will support all throughout already, apparently, an oversupply of retired generals in the administration is not an ideal equation also. I would suggest a moratorium on people power (if and when we get there) for at least 10 years after that. For us who are directly/indirectly involved in the local industry we need “closure” to all these issues. We need to find the time to hunker down and focus on what really matters and that is, as some have continously mentioned, job creation, productivity, and reforms (on all needed fronts).

    Benign0 here is always saying the country is the “bunghole” in the region. He must be referring to the perennially pointed out issue that our neighboring countries have achieved NIC status while we haven’t. Well, that would be easy to say from where you’re sitting, but tell that to people here who are busting their behinds, wracking their brains on a daily basis running their businesses – its a “wake up at dawn, pride swallowing seige!” As someone once said IF YOU COMPARE YOURSELF WITH OTHERS, YOU WILL BECOME VAIN AND BITTER, AS ALWAYS THERE WILL BE OTHERS LESSER OR GREATER THAN YOURSELVES. We’re working on it, you might find it hard to believe but we are. Of course you all would want a China-like breakneck speed right? We don’t. Why? A substantial number of Chinese industries are heavily subsidized, and a lot of them are not making any money at all due to problems in (1)power (2)water (3) fuel (4)raw material. We will see a lot of closures when the bubble bursts. In fact, some businessmen think that our “slowness” has even cushioned us from the effects of the US economic crises. A majority of our local businessmen would rather grow their businesses slowly, basing expansion on actual gains (not utang) and actual market response. We cannot force these people to risk their inheritance, are we going to reimburse them if they lose it all? In the meantime, we have the OFW remittances and the BPOs to tide us over.

    Be that as it may, there are several companies that did venture, San Miguel Corporation has a regional presence, United Laboratories, and Splash (its not even Chinoy owned), etc. The challenge is, our industries have not kept up with our population, it happens. Add the negative impact of monopolies to the heap, graft and corruption, as well as the exodus of skilled workers and good managers. But then again, we’re not stopping. We all have our roles to play, for some, we need to keep the industries going, for some they need to fight for good governance and continued crackdown on monopolies. Gloria’s administration can’t be helped, its time we all accepted that and finally hunker down to work.
    For all those who like her send her some cards or emails of comfort, at least let her know you care. Your comments on this blog are useless if they don’t reach the person concerned.

    Like what I tell my staff when I overhear them talking in the pantry about politics – “lets all get this over with, and get back to work…”

  206. Mita on Wed, 5th Mar 2008 8:59 am 

    Madonna, people are SOOO not treated equally in the US….they are swamped with racial and gender issues and the gap between the rich and the poor is so glaringly wide that the increase in income of the top 1% in the US exeeded the income of the bottom 20%.

    then there’s taxation…the minimum wage earner is taxed more than the captains of industry who make billions a year. oh, and the minimum wage hasn’t increased since 1938 when roosevelt was president.

    but their elections are fair and relatively clean. however, the philippines has a higher voter turnout or maybe it’s the dead casting their ballots…

  207. ramrod on Wed, 5th Mar 2008 9:09 am 

    Mita,

    I don’t really care much about the US. I’m not even following the elections. I believe voter turnout there is really low as I assume politics is not a favorite pastime for most people there as I assume that people don’t notice the government if they are content. That or Americans don’t give a damn on these matters.
    Voter turnout here is fairly high, even if we take away the 1 million or so that are on the election returns but we can’t find the corresponding ballots for. And yes, there were names of dead people that came out, but the number is negligible.

    Its 9:00 already. Time to get back to work…see you guys…

  208. Mita on Wed, 5th Mar 2008 9:13 am 

    ohhh ramrod…di na sana kita papatulan eh…kaya lang. man oh man, can you dish the shit!

    kakasabi ko nga to sa isang comment ko dito din:

    “oh yes, this is the Philippines where everyone projects to be intelligentsia or CEO and expect “others” to do the dirty work….”

    o sya, alam na ng buong mundo ng Quezonia na ika’y isang kapitan ng industriya, nguni’t di ko mainitindihan talaga kung bakit kailangang pang ipangalandakan ito. Di ko rin maintindihan kung ano ang relevance nun sa pagpalitan ng kuro-kuro dito.

    get back to work? your staff in the pantry? AHAHAY! like rego said, you do sound condescending…

    wala ka naman sa rally. why didn’t you stand up and be counted when it mattered? sana nadagadagan yung crowd na pinagtalunan ang laki kinabukasan. kasi kung talagang committed ka sa cause mo, ipagtatanggol mo kahit sino pa ang mag-imbita sa yo sa EDSA Shang.

    project mo pa naman you are different from those of us who come here to shoot the shit….

  209. benign0 on Wed, 5th Mar 2008 9:14 am 

    Mita,

    Apologies for the confusion. I kinda tend to use the word ‘masa’ loosely nowadays. What constitutes as ‘masa’ to me now, anyone who is at the beck and call of the architects of these moronic rallies and street circuses.

    These ‘circus architects’ for me include:

    (a) The Holier-than-thou Bloc; i.e. Aquino, Lozada, and the CBCP
    (b) The Makaba-masa Bloc; i.e. noisy militant leftist groups like Anak-Pawis, Akbayan, Gabriela, etc.
    (c) The Me-want-Power-soon-and-cheap Bloc; i.e. Erap, and some opposition politicians who don’t want to spend money on a proper election campaign.

    You’re right in saying that a chunk of the traditional masa no longer buys the cr@p dished out by the above three. These would be the ones who to some degree now actually THINK and EVALUATE rather than just HEAR and FOLLOW.

    But those who do — those who hit the streets on command of the above — now fit the bill as the ‘masa’ even those Lasallistas and Atenistas who participate can funnily be now counted as such (kawawang mga magulang, working their arses off to pay off tuition fees in excess of hundreds of thousands of pesos only to have their kids incited to dance the ocho-ocho in Manila’s streets).

    If you’re wondering where this is all coming from, look no further than the above three. They’re relevance in our society is determined by the ability to keep up this paranoia — kind of the same way that organised religion derives its power from people’s perception of themselves as good-for-nothing sinners.

  210. Mita on Wed, 5th Mar 2008 9:16 am 

    ahahay ramrod! politics a pastime? yun nga eh…pastime lang pala sa yo….

  211. ramrod on Wed, 5th Mar 2008 9:19 am 

    Mita,

    Hey. Its a personality flaw. Nobody’s perfect. Did I say I didn’t support the rally? As I said, we each have our own roles to play, some have to be in the frontlines, some have to be behind the scenes. Whatever it is people like me do for support is for us to know and for you not o find out. :)

  212. ramrod on Wed, 5th Mar 2008 9:28 am 

    “ahahay ramrod! politics a pastime? yun nga eh…pastime lang pala sa yo….” – Mita

    Pastime. Yes. We all have our day jobs right? Itong blogging nga sinisingit ko na lang in between reading/sending emails eh.

  213. DinaPinoy on Wed, 5th Mar 2008 9:34 am 

    oh, and the minimum wage hasn’t increased since 1938 when roosevelt was president.

    individual states have increased their minimum wage higher than the federal. for example, california has $8, hawaii – $7.25

  214. Mita on Wed, 5th Mar 2008 9:37 am 

    oh gee…personality flaw. o sya. thanks for the laugh ramrod. you really made my day…

    you blog? ahhh…oo nga pala. pero walang laman ha! “space cadets” – bagay na bagay ang pangalan…mala kevin “space-y”!

  215. ramrod on Wed, 5th Mar 2008 9:40 am 

    Mita,

    Hey. I’m not a professional blogger. I just do this for fun nga eh and to meet interesting people like you. there are some people you’ll love to hate in this lifetime, I’m one of them (either that our you’ll just love). :)

  216. ramrod on Wed, 5th Mar 2008 9:44 am 

    “get back to work? your staff in the pantry? AHAHAY! like rego said, you do sound condescending…” – Mita

    Don’t take this comment seriously, I’m the head janitor, I was talking to the appentices, alangan namang ako lang ang maglilinis dito? :)

  217. ramrod on Wed, 5th Mar 2008 9:46 am 

    Mita,

    If you are in the Philippines, and you have time, seriously – meet me at EDSA Shang lobby this Friday 2:30PM at the lobby, look for a short haired, middle-aged male, pecking at the laptop…

  218. sentinel on Wed, 5th Mar 2008 9:52 am 

    ..

  219. james on Wed, 5th Mar 2008 9:56 am 

    excerpts from

    Interfaith rally: The view from below
    By Honesto General PDI

    The interfaith rally was a sham, or, at least, half a sham.

    No one can fake a People Power Miracle. No one can manipulate Divine Providence. Not even with all the money in the world.

    I estimated the crowd at 20,000 maximum. At least 10,000 were there for the money, and only for the money. The total cost, including jeepney rental, amounted to P5 million minimum. Where did the money come from?

  220. ramrod on Wed, 5th Mar 2008 10:07 am 

    “I estimated the crowd at 20,000 maximum. At least 10,000 were there for the money, and only for the money. The total cost, including jeepney rental, amounted to P5 million minimum. Where did the money come from?” – James

    Unfounded allegations! Innuendos! Where’s you evidence?! :)

  221. cvj on Wed, 5th Mar 2008 10:12 am 

    Don’t take this comment seriously, I’m the head janitor – Ramrod

    Ramrod, if you haven’t yet, go watch the movie Michael Clayton. ighly recommended. :-)

  222. DinaPinoy on Wed, 5th Mar 2008 10:15 am 

    ramrod,

    hindi si james ang nagsabi ng estimate.

    totoo siguro ang estimate kasi ang pangalan ng nag estimate ay honesto, general pa ang last name.

  223. ramrod on Wed, 5th Mar 2008 10:18 am 

    cvj,

    Re Michael Clayton, I’ll look for it asap. You too ha, naka minimize ang blogsite while working? :)

  224. ramrod on Wed, 5th Mar 2008 10:19 am 

    “totoo siguro ang estimate kasi ang pangalan ng nag estimate ay honesto, general pa ang last name.” – dinapinoy

    Hahahaha :)

  225. cvj on Wed, 5th Mar 2008 10:29 am 

    Yes, buti na lang hindi pa tayo napapagsabihan ni Mita, katulad ni Shaman.

  226. james on Wed, 5th Mar 2008 10:37 am 

    read your favorite newpaper PDI bout the estimate

    by the way if there is barangay bansot could barangay ‘butlug’ be far away?

  227. istambay_sakalye on Wed, 5th Mar 2008 10:40 am 

    it is very easy to say to just follow the “rule of law” if the individuals in power being accused just bend or break the laws and constitution of the land to fit their needs.

    again as in the rules of court where the one needs to prove the guilt beyond reasonable doubt, is not reliable as doj, ombudsman, comelec and the majority of congressman are obviously in connivance with administration in subverting the laws and constitution.

    it is only in the supreme court where the aggrieved party, the filipino people, find respite, just and fair treatment. time and time again the supreme court justices rebuked the gma administration’s attempt to bastardize and prostitute the laws of this country.

    why then people go to streets and go to rallies? when the avenue for voicing people’s concerns and pains are being undermined by the very people in the government who’s primary responsibility and mandate is defend the weak and unjustly treated, then we are left with no choice but to use the streets to show our anger and outrage.

    when the government promises to punish the perpetrators of crimes, but turns around and promote them and give them commendation, then it just a normal reaction of a decent and sane person to voice their anger disapproval.

    now calling gma a moral leader is tantamount to calling the jews as hitler’s fan. gma is one of the most if not the most morally bankrupt filipino. what morals does gma has to speak of?

  228. ramrod on Wed, 5th Mar 2008 10:41 am 

    james,

    Did you buy the paper or borrow? Please buy the paper, help me sell them…

  229. hawaiianguy on Wed, 5th Mar 2008 10:47 am 

    “totoo siguro ang estimate kasi ang pangalan ng nag estimate ay honesto, general pa ang last name.”

    galing niyan, Dinapinoy. :wink:

  230. ramrod on Wed, 5th Mar 2008 10:48 am 

    istambay,

    Keep doing what all of you are doing. Dito lang kami sa likod nyo, oops, baka isumbong pa tayo ni james kay general honesto. :)

  231. mlq3 on Wed, 5th Mar 2008 11:02 am 

    grd, i was impressed by team rp. they’ve thought things through, they have passion. they aren’t where our group is, now, but they don’t have closed minds. as you know, i’ve always been confident that sooner or later public opinion will swing around to realizing that the admin will squander all opportunities to give it the benefit of the doubt.

    until that happens, these young people have shaken up the landscape and entered the fray, and whether as a moderating or radicalizing influence, it’s all good.

  232. maginoo on Wed, 5th Mar 2008 11:43 am 

    the problem with gma is she’s too pragmatic – cory.

    so sc puno’s compromise on neri too.

    judicial activism/restraint?

  233. manuelbuencamino on Wed, 5th Mar 2008 11:47 am 

    Bencard,

    I want to gut the Constitution but I can’t. Gloria beat me to it.
    I want to throw out the rule of law but I can’t. She beat me to that one too.
    I want to tear down the institutions but I can’t. She already razed them to the ground.

    Gloria is so hardworking, there is nothing left to destroy.

    Shit, even anarchists can’t get work these days!

  234. ramrod on Wed, 5th Mar 2008 12:19 pm 

    Mita,

    If you haven’t noticed, some people have a penchant for nice hotels. Its a clique thing…

  235. Silent Waters on Wed, 5th Mar 2008 12:38 pm 

    Sino ba itong coldking na ito….masakit sa mata yung sulat niya…sigaw ng sigaw…shades of napoleonic complex???

  236. ramrod on Wed, 5th Mar 2008 12:45 pm 

    cold king, okay lang naman maging passionate, nababa naman yun, hindi na kailangang all caps. tapos, okay lang naman sa min mga bisaya na insultuhin paminsan minsan, huwag lang sobra…

  237. ramrod on Wed, 5th Mar 2008 12:46 pm 

    its nababasa pala, not nababa…pasensya na dugay na gyud sa manila, tonto pa gihapon…

  238. benign0 on Wed, 5th Mar 2008 12:50 pm 

    I find it so hilarious that a country of more than 90 million cannot find one good leader who could unify the Opposition much less one good person who could be a good president someday.

    I’d say that reality says a lot about the nature of Pinoy society as a whole. :D

  239. ramrod on Wed, 5th Mar 2008 12:58 pm 

    benign0,

    I’m still keeping my fingers crossed, look at the sky every night for that wishing star, grab the wishing bone everytime we eat at Max’s, ….and of course, read the posts here because there are some interesting candidates (thought they may not know it yet). Like you for instance, wanna go for it? I’ll pledge my vote for you, honest? :)

  240. tonio on Wed, 5th Mar 2008 1:09 pm 

    and a question from left field, just to shake things up…

    one thing i haven’t really understood since i started voting… why don’t some people vote where they live?

    i mean i do, i’ve changed residence three times (once per election i’ve been in) and i saw it as a matter of course to tell the comelec that you’ve moved and switch your voting districts.

    then there’s my dad who still goes all the way to the province during elections.

  241. tonio on Wed, 5th Mar 2008 1:12 pm 

    ramrod:

    i know. since day one of my time spent reading manolo’s blog, benigs has always entered the fray as the “ideas man”, who starts out by denigrating the way Filipinos think and then trumpets his own ideas about reform.

    maybe he should go for it in 2010.

  242. istambay_sakalye on Wed, 5th Mar 2008 1:16 pm 

    from what’ve heard here, benign0 is not a filipino but an australian.if that’s the case, then what is his business here lecturing us about the nature of filipino people and our values?

    what about the history of australia? their treatment of the aborigins? ask him who are the first white people of australia? what quality of people they were from england? why they end up in australia?

    maybe he himself could shed some light on these questions? just the facts, please.

  243. ramrod on Wed, 5th Mar 2008 1:27 pm 

    tonio,

    Actually I’m already looking for a presidential candidate (just for my own purposes). Its good to start early, but I can’t seem to find one yet. So, based on what I’ve read so far, Pres – benign0, CHED Chairman – DJBRizalist, if possible DOJ Sec – bencard…

  244. ramrod on Wed, 5th Mar 2008 1:29 pm 

    istambay,

    We naturalize him of course. But can neutering be reversed?

  245. Kabayan on Wed, 5th Mar 2008 1:34 pm 

    Yes, the influence is deep indeed, we have to speak English to speak to who supposed to know better, unfortunately they many are divorced from the reality which most Filipinos suffer. Perhaps in another alternate world where the US didn’t invade the Philippines we could be speaking Spanish or other European languages. It is hard to bridge the gap between what the destitute Filipinos experience and those insulated in their nice houses in posh subdivisions.

    Kung Pilipino ang wikang gagamitin ko rito, yung mga sanay sa wikang Ingles ay mahihirapang maintindihan ang sitwasyon ng ating bansa, lalo na kung sila’y hiwalay o bulag sa hirap na dinadanas ng karaniwang Pilipino. Kaya ako na ang gumagawa ng tulay upang maintindihan ang sitwasyon ng pangkaraniwang Pilipino at kasama na rin dito ang mga naghihirap nating kababayan.

    So now I build a bridge. To those who wish to know, check out my blogs titled, Amid the Flags and Banners, For Whom do We Fight For Part 1, and For Whom do We Fight For Conclusion, if you care.

    For those who simply care for their self-interest, personal luxuries, armchair analysis, twisting the spirit of our laws and raking in billions at the expense of the Filipinos; don’t bother to visit for these are the kind of people that destroy our nation, our people and our nation’s values.

  246. istambay_sakalye on Wed, 5th Mar 2008 1:34 pm 

    A British penal colony was set up at Port Jackson (what is now Sydney) in 1788, and about 161,000 transported English convicts were settled there until the system was suspended in 1839.
    Free settlers and former prisoners established six colonies: New South Wales (1786), Tasmania (then Van Diemen’s Land) (1825), Western Australia (1829), South Australia (1834), Victoria (1851), and Queensland (1859).
    –www.infoplease.com

    The Stolen Generations (also Stolen Generation and Stolen children) is a term used to describe those children of Australian Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander descent who were removed from their families by the Australian and State government agencies and church missions, under various acts of their respective parliaments, denying the rights of parents and children by making Aboriginal children wards of the state, between approximately 1869 and (officially) 1969.[citation needed] –wikepedia:stolen generations

  247. ramrod on Wed, 5th Mar 2008 1:38 pm 

    tonio, istambay,

    Seriously, whoever sits as President will have a handful this time around. He/she has to survive media scrutiny, unite the congress, enlist the governors, mayors, win the peoples’ acceptance (both masa and rich), win the business community’s cooperation, and deal with interest groups from powerful businesses seeking monopolies. Add the Spratleys issue with China into the cart…

  248. magdiwang on Wed, 5th Mar 2008 1:39 pm 

    wala lang, supreme court hearings on neri has produce no real result….basically back to square one. the senate hearings then will go back to same unproductive exercise. we cant just get it right, going round and round in a circle without direction.

  249. ramrod on Wed, 5th Mar 2008 1:42 pm 

    magdiwang,

    Neri didn’t show up right?

  250. tonio on Wed, 5th Mar 2008 1:47 pm 

    ramrod:

    i know, i know…. the next president is gonna have to be like… i don’t know the Buddha or something. but i know this person exists. like i said, sa dami ba naman nating Pilipino…

    but remember though all of those issues that you’ve put forth are not only for the President to solve. i think it’s time for comprehensive change, in everyone.

  251. magdiwang on Wed, 5th Mar 2008 1:47 pm 

    yeah, he does not have to show up. he says he was under the weather…hehehe probably too stressed out to face things of his own making.

  252. Kabayan on Wed, 5th Mar 2008 1:49 pm 

    istambay_sakalye,

    Empire builders often show how “great” their civilization is while they hide the numbers of people they massacred and conquered. The land they exploited are limitless and they impose upon the rest of the world their own culture and values. Southeast Asia before was a prosperous area; while there are the normal skirmishes between kingdoms, most are content and even have a good life.

    When the Dutch came, they started fomenting wars, monopolies, subjugations, and eventually conquest. Other peoples like the British, Americans, and a host of other European nations followed suit and wrought destruction upon an area which once harbored largely peaceful peoples who prospered courtesy of a lucrative spice trade. These conquerors even controlled the once free rice trade just to control the nations and rulers within. Now the ones who control us are Oligarchs, rich neighboring nations and unscrupulous leaders who now control the mechanisms of law, and check and balances within the democratic system. And still even if these facts are rubbed to the very faces of some people, they still insist on Rule of Law which is already perverted in the first place.

    So if there are people here who do not wish to have another People Power in their hands, then REMOVE the blocks to a fair and honest investigation of anomalies in government. If not, then don’t complain of another People Power and chide how dumb Filipinos are. The Filipinos ceased to be dumb ever since they recognized that the laws are twisted by the powers that be; by this disgusting Oligarchic Syndicracy and their apologists.

  253. ramrod on Wed, 5th Mar 2008 1:59 pm 

    “but remember though all of those issues that you’ve put forth are not only for the President to solve. i think it’s time for comprehensive change, in everyone.” – tonio

    Very true. Genuine change starts from accepting responsibility, we also need to start with ourselves.
    Another consideration, should our leaders be “politically sophisticated?” I mean, should they also have the skills of “wheeling and dealing” to be effective in the group dynamics of government bureacracy? I’m looking at Ed Panlilio, he won based on his own merits, but he’s now under seige by his mayors, etc. being led by this wife of Bong Pineda. She cannot accept defeat, she spent millions, Pineda had no money – he’s not supposed to win elections? Bottomline, without support from the group, the leader may not be effective also?

  254. ramrod on Wed, 5th Mar 2008 2:00 pm 

    kabayan,

    I’ll check out your blog na…see you…

  255. istambay_sakalye on Wed, 5th Mar 2008 2:03 pm 

    looking for a president?

    who is not tainted and with courage to deal with oligarchs? i have one person in mind, sc chief justice reynato puno.

  256. Geo on Wed, 5th Mar 2008 2:12 pm 

    mlq3,

    Off-topic, to be sure, but…..

    There are two recent B&W claims:

    1. The Lozada/”Why Neri is Afraid?” letter was written months ago (and given to Enteng then)…and it was not edited since. The released version was bona fide.

    2. Leah’s claim that Erap’s on-stage appearance was a surprise to her/B&W, and that she believes Binay’s explanation — that he brought them up just to prove to people that they were really there (as texts were claiming otherwise) — is truthful.

    Do you categorically accept these claims to be 100% true?

  257. benign0 on Wed, 5th Mar 2008 2:15 pm 

    i know, i know…. the next president is gonna have to be like… i don’t know the Buddha or something. but i know this person exists. like i said, sa dami ba naman nating Pilipino… — tonio

    Whether this “ideal” person exists or not is actually not the issue. The issue is whether the society itself is of a nature that can actually recognise this person when he/she does emerge, and capitalise his/her ideas, visions, and approaches if/when he or she gets to sit in Malacanang.

    Are Filipinos of the sort that can readily capitalise on an asset sitting within their midst?

    Very unlikely. Not in a society where the wrong arguments usually win and the wrong approaches (such as shortcuts) are the favoured mode of operation.

    Take our natural resources, for example.

    The Philippines was and is “blessed” with ABUNDANT natural resources.

    What did we CHOOSE to do with these resources? Export them raw (quick results, low added-value).

    On the other hand, countries like Japan, Korea, and Singapore were and are relatively poor in natural resources.

    Yet their economic power utterly dwarfs that of the Philippines (long-haul results, high added-value).

    Japan and Korea had their own share of bad-apple leaders too. In fact the degree of corruption that stains some of these Japanese and Korean leaders makes this whole NBN/ZTE circus look like child’s play in comparison.

    And yet they are vastly more prosperous societies.

    That Filipinos would pin their future fortunes on the improbable existence of an “ideal president” merely highlights the utter improbability of a prosperous future for Pinoys collectively.

  258. mindanaoan on Wed, 5th Mar 2008 2:16 pm 

    Kabayan,
    back to the question again: just what exactly will your people power accomplish? no more oligarchs afterwards? no more corruption?

  259. mlq3 on Wed, 5th Mar 2008 2:18 pm 

    geo:

    1. yes, the letter was given at the time enteng says it was. we do not have control, however, over versions not originating from us. the version posted in pinoypress.com, for example, was edited by the blogger.

    2. yes, because there was a clear agreement among the organizers as to what would take place in the program. the agreement was clear and arrived at after much, often furious, discussion. you cannot probe into binay’s thinking/motivations as to his excuse. you either accept it or you don’t. we chose to accept it. the other groups have been made aware of our feelings concerning such things happening again, though.

  260. ramrod on Wed, 5th Mar 2008 2:22 pm 

    kabayan,

    Re “For whom are we fighting for?” thanks, its true, a picture paints a thousand words – REAL PEOPLE, REAL NEEDS.

    mindanaoan,

    Its not getting rid of Oligarchs, its breaking monopolies by Oligarchs…then we’ll see some changes…

  261. ramrod on Wed, 5th Mar 2008 2:26 pm 

    benign0,

    Its not that the Filipinos are just sitting on their asses, most of them are busy making a living. We’re working on it, but we’re not going to undergo self-flagellation as you always propose.
    Thats why I’m rooting for you to run as President nga eh, you’re not ideal, but you have so many ideas of how to do these things. When would you want to be naturalized? Please set a schedule.

  262. mindanaoan on Wed, 5th Mar 2008 2:30 pm 

    ramrod,
    breaking monopolies by oligarchs through people power? isn’t that wishful thinking?

  263. istambay_sakalye on Wed, 5th Mar 2008 2:32 pm 

    Japan and Korea had their own share of bad-apple leaders too. In fact the degree of corruption that stains some of these Japanese and Korean leaders makes this whole NBN/ZTE circus look like child’s play in comparison.–
    benign0

    in japan or korean when their leaders are accused of corruption and other anomalies or they failed to do what they promised, they either resign or take their own life to protect their and their family’s honor! it will never happen here in philippines, pakapalan ng mukha, like that bansut in malacanang. also, in korea or japan they actually sent their leaders to jail and actually gets punished for the crimes committed. here they get sent to town house, attend parties and when found guilty, gets pardoned ASAP.

  264. maginoo on Wed, 5th Mar 2008 2:32 pm 

    right, mindanaoan!

    edsa 2 also ran on anti-corruption and change causes.

    from the shouts we hear, we’re not sure where they’re coming from? “for change!” “for the country!” “for the truth!” could as well be coming from the pride, from the ego, or from the hubris.

    let’s be circumspect. it may take generations to correct the consequences if we don’t get this right it again. the sons paying for the sins of their fathers.

  265. tonio on Wed, 5th Mar 2008 2:33 pm 

    benign0:

    That Filipinos would pin their future fortunes on the improbable existence of an “ideal president” merely highlights the utter improbability of a prosperous future for Pinoys collectively.

    what’s wrong with looking for something (or someone) to believe in?

    the “ideal president” for me would serve as an example. the key for other people to finally liberate themselves of their debilitating mindsets.

  266. Kabayan on Wed, 5th Mar 2008 2:33 pm 

    istambay_sakalye,

    looking for a president?

    who is not tainted and with courage to deal with oligarchs? i have one person in mind, sc chief justice reynato puno.

    We have the same wavelength, I’ve also posted this suggestion before.

    ==========

    ramrod,

    Hope my blog will touch the conscience of some people especially those in power. Leaders tend to forget those in the bottom rung of the totem pole.

  267. ramrod on Wed, 5th Mar 2008 2:36 pm 

    “breaking monopolies by oligarchs through people power? isn’t that wishful thinking?” – mindanaoan

    Pastilan gyud ka bay. Ang people power para pag bag-o lang sa liderato, sunod niana pagpanglimpiyo sa sistema, dayon kining mga bag-ong liderato ang mohimo ug mga paagi para mabongkag ang monopolies. Nakasabot kana? Ang katawhang gahum (tama ba yun) usa lang sa mga paagi para masugdan na ang mga pag bag-o na dugay na natong gihandum…

  268. ramrod on Wed, 5th Mar 2008 2:38 pm 

    Oops, over break na yata ako. See you later guys… :)

  269. istambay_sakalye on Wed, 5th Mar 2008 2:39 pm 

    past people power are mistakes then that we should not make again? is that right maginoo?

    it is wrong then to get rid of marcos? it is also wrong then to get rid of erap?

    does everyone agree with that line of thought?

    what was wrong was the people who benefitted from the people power, such as gma, did not use it for the good of the entire filipino nation. instead she took advantage of it use for her own greed. same with cory, she was a good person but the people around her, kamag-anak inc., was her ruin.

    we do learn from these. this ain’t a perfect world. but what is worse to tolerate the evil that is arroyo because we are scared of the future.

  270. Kabayan on Wed, 5th Mar 2008 2:40 pm 

    mindanaoan,

    back to the question again: just what exactly will your people power accomplish? no more oligarchs afterwards? no more corruption?

    The 2nd people power failed because the Filipinos just forgot about monitoring democracy and honest governance once Gloria sat down. Right now, the struggle is not simply in removing Gloria. Removing Gloria is just half the fight, the next level would be rooting out the evil people in governance and those people who manipulate our society using their money, power and influence. Then next would be bringing back decency, honesty, and good basic values that has been destroyed by this present regime. It must be a continuous advocacy and must be instituted to the very core of governance, systems and education.

    As I have said before, the price of freedom and good governance is eternal vigilance.

  271. tonio on Wed, 5th Mar 2008 2:42 pm 

    Kabayan:

    but according to some dimwitted, commie-symphathizing, advocates of armed struggle on this thread (scroll up, you’ll see it, the one who idolizes Mao Zedong and the Ayatollah Khomeini) nothing will ever come out of our efforts in the Internet.

    as they say, “wussy geeks” can’t do a damn thing about the situation in the Philippines.

    it’s a great piece though, it makes the issues clear to intelligent people, anyway.

  272. tonio on Wed, 5th Mar 2008 2:46 pm 

    Kabayan:

    The 2nd people power failed because the Filipinos just forgot about monitoring democracy and honest governance once Gloria sat down.

    which is symptomatic of the way Filipinos dealt with things back then, everyone was (and for the most part is) dependent on a “bigger, stronger” leader to represent themselves, the “poor, small helpless victims”.

    i hope that this time around, that people recognize the power that resides within them. and go out and gain the knowledge with which to use that power to effect real change in this society.

  273. Kabayan on Wed, 5th Mar 2008 2:47 pm 

    tonio said,

    Well nothing will come out of the ideas we are posting in the internet if we fail to act on it and educate other people about it.

    Let’s say that the internet promotes “advertising” of thoughts and ideas. But it is still nothing if what we read are not acted upon by those who believe that the idea is right; even if they read it hundreds of times.

  274. Kabayan on Wed, 5th Mar 2008 2:49 pm 

    tonio

    Oops omit the word “said”,

    which is symptomatic of the way Filipinos dealt with things back then, everyone was (and for the most part is) dependent on a “bigger, stronger” leader to represent themselves, the “poor, small helpless victims”.

    i hope that this time around, that people recognize the power that resides within them. and go out and gain the knowledge with which to use that power to effect real change in this society.

    Yes, we as a nation should cease to be lazy and complacent the next time around.

  275. Geo on Wed, 5th Mar 2008 2:58 pm 

    mlq3,

    Thanks for the quick reply.

    Enteng said that Jun L wrote the letter in Oct. But he never clearly stated when he received it from Lozada. Has he ever categorically stated when he actually RECEIVED it?

    Why would he hold on to it until Feb anyway? There was no “compelling reason”??? For him and B&W, who are so focused on this type of issue? Seems like the public would “deserve to know” earlier rather than later, no?

    Where is an on-line copy of the unadulterated letter? Pinoy Press, btw, says their version is unedited. I couldn’t find it on the B&W site. Actually, have we ever seen the actual, original hard copy?

  276. cvj on Wed, 5th Mar 2008 3:10 pm 

    Geo, i wish you have that same fervor for transparency when it comes to Gloria Arroyo’s secrets.

  277. mlq3 on Wed, 5th Mar 2008 3:12 pm 

    geo, i don’t gather the significance of your questions. you can review the various statements enteng has made about his discussions with lozada and they will place the article, etc. in context. same for enteng’s comments, reading it firmly places the writing and his receipt of the letter more or less around the same time, else, no need to raise as he did, enteng’s judgment as to the timing of the releasing the letter when he did. it seems sensible to me that the decision on the timing was based on many considerations, including potential harm to lozada at a time when he hadn’t even decided whether or not to come forward as a witness. and that release was justified in helping explain why that decision was fraught with danger and agonizing.

    thanks re: correction re: pinoy press. reviewing my entry on the article:

    http://www.quezon.ph/?p=1672

    you can ask pinoy press but i recall that when it was originally published, it had been edited for clarity.

  278. Geo on Wed, 5th Mar 2008 3:51 pm 

    mlq3,

    The significance is that I’m simply looking for the truth.

    It is not at all clear who wrote the letter, nor when, nor when Romano received it…nor if it was edited.

    Neri has stated that the letter didn’t sound like Lozada.

    If Romano got the letter in October, it’s a bit strange that he’d keep it under wraps. And no, I couldn’t find any clarifications on the timing via googling. Has he actually ever clarified this?

    Why would Enteng worry that Lozada might get in trouble? The directions were supposedly to “disseminate without attribution” at whenever/wherever Romano wanted. No, Lozada wouldn’t have had problems…the administration would have though!

    So why hold back? Makes no sense.

    CVJ — I’m an advocate of transparency, dude. Rest your fangs. I was actually surfing for something else when some inconsistencies at B&W struck me. Since I have direct access to someone actually in the know (mlq3), I’m asking questions. Okie dokie?

  279. mlq3 on Wed, 5th Mar 2008 4:00 pm 

    geo, the background as to the relationship between jun lozada and enteng is provided here:

    http://newsinfo.inquirer.net/inquirerheadlines/nation/view/20080207-117255/Affidavit-A-vs-Affidavit-B

    according to what enteng told me, the only error in the inquirer article is that lozada approached enteng, and not vice-versa as the report had it. otherwise, it’s an accurate account.

    the context is that lozada and neri feared for their lives. they were fearful because their knowledge was, in both their minds and it seems, of the palace, was quite harmful and so, liquidating them prior their surfacing would have been worth it.

    you might also note that lozada has had ample opportunity to belie the circumstances surrounding the article but has not done so to date.

    therefore, while both lozada and neri prepared post mortem testimony, in a sense, it would not have been wise to release any information coming from them. that’s because it wasn’t clear whether they would validate, in public, what they were prepared to intimate in private, and it remained unclear whether releasing anything might actually place them in additional harm’s way.

    this is based on an assumption you may not share, but which we firmly believe: we are dealing with a ruthless administration that won’t have any compunctions about liquidating people who aren’t in the limelight yet.

  280. nash on Wed, 5th Mar 2008 4:12 pm 

    @bencard

    “and who the hell do you think you are? so what if you “can’t let it pass”? it stands, whether you like it or not.”

    So you endorse the inaction of our government to these killings? Have you ever had any of your friends or family threatened? Or these killings are inconsequential to you as they only involve ‘peasants’? GMA is top of the chain of command and yet here we are, Raul Gonzalez as Justice Sec, instead of letting Palparan be investigated she appoints him as consultant….even in this wretched ZTE deal, did she fire anyone after she was made aware it was anomalous? Complicity by inaction at the very least!

    time and time again, you have proven you are a man of LOW LOW standards.

    It’s probably why you are a small time “lawyer” posting pseudo-erudite BS on this comment box. Otherwise, if you espoused any decent standards at all, we’d be kissing your feet as justice or something.But noooooooooo.

    Bencard for CHR Commisioner!

    cheers

  281. mindanaoan on Wed, 5th Mar 2008 4:50 pm 

    kabayan,

    The 2nd people power failed because the Filipinos just forgot about monitoring democracy and honest governance once Gloria sat down. Right now, the struggle is not simply in removing Gloria. Removing Gloria is just half the fight, the next level would be rooting out the evil people in governance and those people who manipulate our society using their money, power and influence. Then next would be bringing back decency, honesty, and good basic values that has been destroyed by this present regime. It must be a continuous advocacy and must be nstituted to the very core of governance, systems and education.

    exactly what i was talking about. ‘feel good’ platitudes instead of realistic assesment, wishful thinking instead of a concrete plan. i won’t be surprised if you’ll miss your cloud-target, and we woke up with a junta instead.
    the 2nd people power failed, yes. but it succeeded in nourishing the delusion of political shortcuts, that a segment of the population can dictate it’s will on all of us. still another people power might turn it from a delusion into an institution, then we will need your eternal vigilance just to keep our government from falling apart.

  282. cvj on Wed, 5th Mar 2008 5:08 pm 

    Mindanaoan, if the 4th People Power lacks follow through, then it will fail just like the 2nd. It’s the follow through that’s important. Your ‘realism’ accommodates plunder, state-sanctioned kidnapping and treason. Hardly the kind of reality we would want to live in.

  283. jason born on Wed, 5th Mar 2008 6:09 pm 

    “you do not need a legal basis to ask a president to resign. you only need what lawyers call a moral certainty she is unfit for office. your legal basis is what is required to deprive her of life, liberty, and property. but depriving someone of office, which isn’t a god-given right, is something the citizenry can do at any time for reasons unrelated to what passes for the law.”

    Bulls eye mlq. Your argument is enough to debunk those legal zealots who have been saying that we need incontrovertible proofs before GMA is kicked out of office. When GMA ran in 2004, did we ask her to present incontrovertible proof that she is better over the other candidates? Did we apply the rules of court to validate her claim of supremacy over the other presidentiables? Look at prime minister abe of Japan, he resigned after he saw his ratings went down. Another example is US senator Larry Craig. He resigned amid the growing perception that he is a gay. That’s political maturity. Unlike our politicians here, they’re leeches.

  284. The Ca t on Wed, 5th Mar 2008 7:12 pm 

    you cannot probe into binay’s thinking/motivations as to his excuse.

    it is clear that he is a rider, an opportunist. The last time , he initiated the rally, he did not get much crowd and he is not convinced either of the sincerity and commitment of the group that he assembled. Pwede ba yon pag pressured na umattend?

    So if there is a rally of this kind ,bakit nga naman hindi niya isisingit ang kaniyang mga alagad eerm, panginoon.

  285. The Ca t on Wed, 5th Mar 2008 7:17 pm 

    Oops, over break na yata ako. See you later guys…

    I think you are spending more time here than in your work.
    just concerned. Hindi ka ba nasisilip ng mga bosses mo?

    Kung ikaw man ang boss, bad model yan sa employee.

    That encourages dishonesty, stealing wasting man-hours due to blogging or engaging in a forum.

  286. ramrod on Wed, 5th Mar 2008 7:46 pm 

    The Cat,

    Sorry madam. Sa gabi na lang ako magboblog next time. :(

  287. cvj on Wed, 5th Mar 2008 9:07 pm 

    Kung hindi si Mita, si Ca T pala ang maninita. Teamwork. :-D

  288. anthony scalia on Wed, 5th Mar 2008 10:55 pm 

    Japan and Korea had their own share of bad-apple leaders too. In fact the degree of corruption that stains some of these Japanese and Korean leaders makes this whole NBN/ZTE circus look like child’s play in comparison.

    ang hirap sa mga Pinoy, ayaw maniwalang pwedeng umusad even with corruption around. hihintayin pang maging corrupt-free ang bansa bago may gawin.

    worse, baka nga iniisip pa ng mga Pinoy eh kapag corrupt-free na, mahuhulog na lang sa langit ang prosperity

    i already anticipate rebuttal of the fans of “activist government” with “forward looking policies” to highlight a “myopic lameduck government” but not taking issue with the lack of personal responsibility and initiative of each Pinoy towards financial independence

    the usual refrain of many OFWs – “the government can’t provide decent jobs so we have to go abroad”

  289. Manila Bay Watch on Wed, 5th Mar 2008 10:56 pm 

    Re: …this is based on an assumption you may not share, but which we firmly believe: we are dealing with a ruthless administration that won’t have any compunctions about liquidating people who aren’t in the limelight yet. mlq3

    I think it won’t too off the mark to say that this belief is shared by a vast number of Filipinos.

  290. anthony scalia on Wed, 5th Mar 2008 11:09 pm 

    I want to gut the Constitution but I can’t. Gloria beat me to it.
    I want to throw out the rule of law but I can’t. She beat me to that one too.
    I want to tear down the institutions but I can’t. She already razed them to the ground.

    Gloria is so hardworking, there is nothing left to destroy.

    Shit, even anarchists can’t get work these days!

    the essence of the “kami naman” Genuine Opportunists.

    the Genuine Opportunists should be banned from any and all anti-gloria rallies.

    gloria is sure to step down in 2010 if Genuine Opportunists keep on showing up in every anti-gloria rally

  291. anthony scalia on Wed, 5th Mar 2008 11:12 pm 

    I think it won’t too off the mark to say that this belief is shared by a vast number of Filipinos.

    no, its way off the mark

  292. UP n student on Wed, 5th Mar 2008 11:25 pm 

    Freedom of expression allows:
    “……this is based on an assumption you may not share, but which we firmly believe: we are dealing with a ruthless administration that won’t have any compunctions about liquidating people who aren’t in the limelight yet. mlq3

    In my opinion, above-sentence is very provocative and may be near-equal to ColdKing’s rantings about revolution.

  293. Bencard on Thu, 6th Mar 2008 2:45 am 

    nash, i’m responding to you if only to “educate” people here who have the same mindset as yours. what do you mean inaction? are you sure the government is “not” doing anything? the problem is that you want everything railroaded, and damn due process and the rule of law. yet you don’t want pgma to be a dictator who can fire or jail anyone on suspicion of dereliction of duty or wrongdoing based on bare allegations, do you? also, are you holding the president personally responsible for every crime that happens in the country?

    whether i am a “big-time” or small-time lawyer is neither here nor there. i am a lawyer and i owe it from nobody that i am one. it’s not subject to your approval or recognition, whatever or whoever you are.

    btw, i think if i said something against “gloria”, you would not only kiss my feet but my ass too. right? cheers.

  294. Bencard on Thu, 6th Mar 2008 3:03 am 

    jason borne, resignation is purely voluntary. no need for any basis, not even “moral certainty” – whatever that is.
    if gma resigns, that’s exclusively her own decision, not because any one or group asks her to do so. resignation based on force, duress or intimidation is not valid.

    buencamino, take my advice. try to learn to accept defeat.lick you wounds and fight another day, maybe after 2010. btw, if the laws and constitution have already been gutted, why are you still writing canards and out of jail?

  295. benign0 on Thu, 6th Mar 2008 7:24 am 

    the problem is that you want everything railroaded, and damn due process and the rule of law. yet you don’t want pgma to be a dictator who can fire or jail anyone on suspicion of dereliction of duty or wrongdoing based on bare allegations, do you? also, are you holding the president personally responsible for every crime that happens in the country?” — Bencard

    Actually this argument can underpin all arguments that highlight the essential flaw behind the moronic ‘Patalsikin na Now na’ mentality.

    Then again this is Philippine society — where all the wrong arguments win hands down. :D

  296. anthony scalia on Thu, 6th Mar 2008 4:46 pm 

    Bencard,

    also, are you holding the president personally responsible for every crime that happens in the country?

    they blame everything on ‘Hello Garci’

    so for them oil price hikes, rising prices, high inflation, glorietta blast, unemployment, OFW exodus etc. are all caused by ‘Hello Garci’

  297. Lester Cavestany on Thu, 6th Mar 2008 6:23 pm 

    @Nash

    I beg to differ. Norway is a democratic country. In fact, Norway has been consistenly in the top 10 of the Economist Intelligence Unit democracy index. In 2006, Norway ranked fourth. Click here to see the full list of full democracies: http://www.economist.com/media/pdf/DEMOCRACY_INDEX_2007_v3.pdf

    They also ranked the Philippines among the “flawed democracies”.

    Thanks,
    Lester

  298. jason born on Fri, 7th Mar 2008 12:29 am 

    Bencard:
    “…resignation is voluntary”
    I agree sir.

    In some cases but not in general. For example, you work in a company and was caught stealing, lying and cheating. Your boss wanted to sack you but he considered your long service; so, he allowed you to have a graceful exit. He advised you to resign or get fired. is your boss’ act invalid?

    Same thing with GMA, she lost her moral ascedancy to govern. So the people pressure her to resign.
    Prime Minister Abe of Japan, Tony Blair and US Senator Larry Craig stepped down for alleged corruption and lapse of judgment, which were moderate compared to the numerous scandals GMA is facing. In the case of Abe, he took his first cue after his ruling party was routed in last year’s election. Why? Because of delicadeza. Because of political maturity and love of country. Putting public interests paramount over theirs. Unlike our politicians, they’re leeches.

  299. grd on Fri, 7th Mar 2008 3:02 am 

    DAY 8…

  300. Bencard on Fri, 7th Mar 2008 3:29 am 

    jason born, in both the u.s. and philippine jurisdictions, private employment, in the absence of contract to the contrary, is at will, meaning that you can be terminated for no other reason than your employer doesn’t like you anymore.
    if he gives you a chance to save face by resigning, that’s good. of course that’s valid.

    but i thought we were talking about the president of the land whose tenure is fixed by the constitution. “moral ascendancy”, what is that in constitutional or legal context? and how is it determined that he/she has it or not – by poll surveys, blog comments, newspaper editorials, 10, 20,30, 50 thousand rallyist, statements of some priests, bishops and nuns and/or lozada?

    just because some foreign leaders quit because of political heat is not reason enough to oust “gloria”, i think.

  301. Bencard on Fri, 7th Mar 2008 3:33 am 

    anthony scalia, i think they also blame her for bad weather and why they are not “rich” and living in rockwell (lol).

  302. anthony scalia on Fri, 7th Mar 2008 8:53 am 

    jason born,

    as for Abe and Blair, they resigned as PM, but they stayed on as members of parliament. same with thaksin of thailand

    on Abe still – he resigned, rather than wait to be voted out by the new ruling party

    as for the US Senator, did he quit as senator or as a senate officer (like majority leader, minority leader, committee chairman etc)

  303. vic on Fri, 7th Mar 2008 12:12 pm 

    Might add, that in a Parliamentary, resignation is not just Voluntary, but could also be forced on the Party Leader by the Membership. If the PM or Premier refuse to resign the Leadership, thereby staying as PM or Premier, the Membership of the Party, if for the best Interest of the Party, may recall the Leader and Replace Him or Her, thereby effectively Replacing the PM or Premier..

  304. Bencard on Sat, 8th Mar 2008 5:06 am 

    vic, those filipinos who are “calling” on pgma to resign are evidently confusing the current presidential form with a parliamentary system. as you pointed out, an out-of-favor PM has no choice but to resign. these people who are shouting “gloria resign now na” are the same crowd who resist a change to parliamentary form. amusing, isn’t it?

  305. justice league on Sat, 8th Mar 2008 2:16 pm 

    Vic and Bencard,

    It very much depends also on the provisions that govern a parliamentary form of government.

    I’m not really against Charter change per se.

    My offer to you Bencard on a discussion on the merits of the previous proposed Constitutional revisions still stands (which obviously on your case is the parliamentary government). Who knows, you might even convince me that they are worthwhile.

  306. jason born on Sat, 8th Mar 2008 4:32 pm 

    @bencard

    all governmental powers emanate from the people. The people reposited these powers to our leaders for safe keeping and useful exercise for the benefit of the body politic without a contract. Such arrangement, makes our leaders public servants. As the term suggests, leaders are servants and the people are their masters. By analogy in an employer-employee relationship, the leaders are employees, the people are employers. thus, when the servants-leaders-employees break the implied terms, with the absence of the contract, the masters-people-employers can demand for resignation.

    A closer and concrete example to prove the validity of the people’s action, pressuring the govt’t via the call for resignation is the case of Nixon. Under pressure, Nixon resigned. Was Nixon’s resignation invalid? Nixon’s presidency’s was fueled by the water gate scandal, particularly the sting cover-up operation he purposely ordered.

    In our case, Marcos was booted out of power based on allegations of massive corruption and abused of state power. Millions of people flooded the streets to pressure him. But it was not the entire voting populace who joined the protest. Was the people’s action, pressuring Marcos an assault to the rule law or ‘invalid’?

    People also lorded over the streets, calling Erap’s resignation, and eventually catapulted GMA to power. Like in the case of Marcos, it was not the entire voting populace who joined the protest. My question would be the same sir.

    I see no evil if we follow what other democratic countries do to their perceived corrupt leader. Pressuring them to step down, so an honest-to-goodness house cleaning can follow. As history would show it, it is even more beneficial to democracy. Had Marcos’ stayed in power, do you think any case would prosper against him. Had Erap stayed in power, do you think he would not be tempted to use the vast resources of the gov’t in supressing the truth. We saw how Marcos weakend all democratic institutions, controlling Congress, abusing the executive power, intimidating the Courts. That’s why the people put their act together to oust him.

    Like Nixon, GMA’s human instinct for self preservation might become her priority. and she might do the same thing, exploiting the coercive power of the state and resources to supress the truth. Which in my opinion, we’re heading to that direction.

    Yes, the constitution fixes the term of the president. In the same constitution, the people is granted the freedom of expression. Although not absolute, part of that expression, is the right to call for their leaders’ resignation, regardless of the possibility, that such action may cause pressure on them.

    opps. the boss is here. For the time being sir, thank your for your rejoinder. Im glad that we’re able to keep our discussion healthy without resorting to adhominems. I’ll post my reply soon on the issue of moral ascendancy.

  307. jason born on Sat, 8th Mar 2008 6:08 pm 

    re: pressuring govt to pressuring the president

  308. vic on Sat, 8th Mar 2008 11:01 pm 

    One of my objections of the Parliamentary Model Proposed is the method of electing the PM, which was not based on the Strong Party System where the Leader of the Winning Party becomes the PM, whether the Leader failed to win a seat(a deputy leader can take the PM duties, until one of the Members of the Party will give his or her safe seat and a by-election will be called). that way there will be no backroom negotiating for anyone to become a Prime Minister, but the voters wish by voting for the Party, either a minority or majority government. A minority government is always possible for multiple parties contesting the government..

    As what was proposed, the PM will be chosen from among the Elected MPs,which again will be opened to Fragmentation among MPs by either “buying” or offering positions to the elected Members for their votes for the PM and again Loyalties to the sitting PM will be compromised by individual loyalties instead of Political Parties. And that will defeat the whole exercise of switching to Parliamentary Form..

  309. Bencard on Sat, 8th Mar 2008 11:21 pm 

    good job, jason (i say this sincerely – you remind of my son, jason, who practices with me and with whom i have frequent discussions about anything under the sun – from hip-hop music to descartes).

    yes, the people entrusted the power to the government (acting through duly-constituted “leaders” and agents) but with a written CONTRACT, i.e., the constitution which spells out the terms and conditions of the power grant and the limits of governance, including presidential tenure. political scientists and philosophers, e.g. rousseau, locke, montesquuieu) called it the “social contract”, a.k.a, the CONSTITUTION.

    the term of office, and the involuntary removal, of a president is prescribed by the constitution. it also allows voluntary termination through resignation (with or without reason). nixon voluntarily resigned, on his own volition, because he knew his impeachment and removal was almost a certainty. that was his own call, and if there was pressure, it was from his own awareness that it was a fight he could not win. the same thing could be said about marcos and estrada. in their minds they were mindful of the futily of resistance. there is no duress in one’s own desire to surrender that could render a resignation invalid.

    in the case of pgma, she is secure in her belief that, under the rule of law, there is no valid ground for her involuntary removal. by her declaration and judging from recent events, we know that she is ready, willing and able to defeat any attempt to “oust” her by hook or by crook. that’s why she is still in office and by so doing, she is preserving our constitution, our laws and our democratic institutions – giving us hope that they will endure for as long as our nation exists.

    btw, the social contract between the people and the government, on one hand, and private employment contract between the employee and employer, on the other, are apple and orange, respectively.

  310. Bencard on Sat, 8th Mar 2008 11:42 pm 

    edit: the term of office, and the involuntary removal of a president, ARE prescribed by the constitution.

  311. justice league on Sun, 9th Mar 2008 12:08 am 

    Vic,

    Well I can’t really say much about your first paragarph.

    I also hate to nit pick with you but since we are discussing the effects of specific changes in the Charter, I have to point out that the PM will not be selected only from the elected MPs. Because of the proportional representation of political parties wherein parties can appoint additional MPs depending on their parties performance in the elections; such appointed MPs may also vie for the Prime Ministership besides voting on it.

    But there are other provisions in the proposed Charter regarding parliament that are of questionable benefit to the people.

  312. anthony scalia on Sun, 9th Mar 2008 1:26 pm 

    the proposed amendment is for a return to the marcos-era Batasan Pambansa parliament

  313. anthony scalia on Sun, 9th Mar 2008 1:54 pm 

    justice league,

    what could be those proposed amendments that are of ‘questionable benefit’ to the people?

    in the British parliamentary system, the PM is an MP, so the PM is chosen from Parliament.

    the chief executive not being directly voted into office is not a ‘questionable benefit’

  314. justice league on Sun, 9th Mar 2008 2:25 pm 

    Anthony Scalia,

    I wrote an article/post about the other provisions that I pertain to and I entitled it “Constitutional Oligarchy”.

    You might be able to search for it in a search engine though there is a copy of it here in this blogsite but its been a long time since so I can’t remember what thread it is.

    I suggest you read it first then get back to me.

  315. jason born on Mon, 10th Mar 2008 12:03 am 

    @bencard

    Thanks for the compliment sir. I decided to engage with you in a discussion on this issue because you can keep our debate within the bounds of decency. You always hold back using adhominems, especially character assassination not unless your foe draws first blood. I also admire your clarity and conciseness of your arguments. That’s why i enjoy your battle of attritions with MLQ in the market place of ideas.

    Back to the issue.

    I submit that the constitution is the written contract between the people and govt. by and large, it did not abrogate the right of the people to pressure the president through the call for her resignation. With the right of the freedom of expression granted by the constitution, i think it reinforced its validity.

    On the other hand, I think you impliedly agree with me on some points. You conceded that the resignations of Estrada and Nixon, and the removal of Marcos from office were valid because in their desire of doing it, they were not under duress. Although their might had been pressure, yet it was still them who assessed and made judgment whether to continue fighting or not.

    That is precisely my point. And this is the case of what has been going on right now in GMA’s embattled leadership. The people, who believe the president is no longer serving them but enriching herself and her family in tandem with her cronies, pressure GMA by asking her resignation. But leaving it to her own volition to decide voluntarily whether to step down or not. The same thing we did to Marcos and Erap. And the same thing the American people and his political opponents did to Nixon. The basis: The right of freedom of expression. As long as the people do it peacefully and within the parameter of the law to which GMA may crumble to the pressure and eventually resign because she sees she will lose the battle anyway. I believe, her resignation will be valid.

    If GMA won’t heed the call, and the AFP and PNP, won’t jump into the fray and turn their back on the president, then the people who have been asking her resignation, including me, won’t have any another option but to wait until 2010.

    Frankly, i believe GMA won’t step down even if the entire voting populace or 80 percent of RP’s population would join the rally. As long as she has the majority support of the Lower House so she can thwart impeachment; and as long as she has the backing of the most crucial element that holds the key of her candy store: the military and the police, she won’t resign. What im hoping to accomplish in joining the call for her resignation is for the military and police to see the true pulse of the nation.

    I rest my case, sir.

  316. Bencard on Mon, 10th Mar 2008 3:07 am 

    good points, jason. and if pgma could hold on till 2010, then we avoid yet another constitutional crisis and upheaval, putting stability to our institutions that others in the outside world can rely on and respect. a country built on a shaky foundation will crumble at the first ill wind that blows. we are are not an old nation by any means but we are not an upstart either. it’s time we think in terms of permanence and predictability in our governmental processes rather than engage in endless and costly experimentation and adventurism to satisfy the ambitions or messianic delusions of a few.

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