Once more unto the breach, dear friends, once more
February 18, 2008 by mlq3
Filed under Daily Dose
Friday, along Ayala. Some people preferred to be at the sidelines.
Office types stood and watched. Marchers congregate.
Office types and families stood at the sidelines. Another view.
Another view. Red Cross volunteers at a first aid station
.
Saturday: as preparations took place, LSGH held its Junior Prom at the gym.
Jun Lozada prepares for the grueling “Harapan” interview (see in on YouTube).
Lozada hooked up for sound; begins his 3-hour confrontation.
Sunday, 7 a.m. Nuns arrive; ushers double-checking plans
Ushers prepare to go to their stations; Nuns survey the gym
Early birds at the gym; venue begins to fill up
mainstream and new media: Mike Enriquez and Dean Jorge Bocobo (see his slideshow of the event!)
Bleachers fill up; participants, old and young
Thomasians in school colors; gym fills up
Scenes from a gym
Mass begins
views of the gym
views of the gym
views of the gym
views of the gym
Fr. Francisco’s homily; with gym and canteen full, people spill over to football field
Field spillover
canteen spillover; singing “Bayan Ko”
Young and old singing “Bayan Ko”
Bleachers singing “Bayan Ko”
Clergy (including Dominicans) and laity singing “Bayan Ko”
As people emerge…
Crowd in the field salutes those who were in the gym and canteen.
The Senate hearings continue, today. See Inquirer.net’s running account of the hearings.
Besides the the best that the administration being able to manage to do, was to crowd a restaurant with officials (and issue panicky warnings), the most interesting thing to me about Friday’s rally and Sunday Mass, was what took place in the sidelines. Friday’s rally was a morale booster for the Left and the UNO, but it also involved workers from Makati offices who dashed down to watch and clap during their breaks and families from what formerly used to be the President’s constituencies, who simply showed up to make the point that henceforth, they intend to be interested and engaged in what’s going on.
These small clusters of people on the sidelines -I am not alone in observing this interesting phenomenon last Friday, see a published e-mail from Fr. Eliseo Mercado- and its flowering on Sunday cared less about what was being said during the rally, and more about simply making a stand in a small way. Some hadn’t shown up at any rallies since 1986; others, since Edsa Dos. Mon Casiple calls it The epiphany of the Middle Class. In the entry, he zeroes in on the significance of this reawakening:
The dramatic street play may or may not come to pass but all political actors are now constrained by the middle class’ political stand.
What does Casiple mean? Observe how some of the Middle Class who went to Makati ended up disillussioned, as Jessica Zafra recounts (see also Patricia Evangelista’s column, Liars); no such worries or fallout from the Sunday Mass, which means this will become the antidote to street-type rallies, since they are more hakot-proof (what is the definition of hakot? Bringing people who neither understand nor care what an issue is about, to a gathering, simply to give the impression of popular participation; this is different from a committed group mobilizing its supporters who share the common cause).
With regards to this, a conversation I had with a professor from UP illustrates what the constraint on the various political groups will be. He came up to me and told me he hadn’t been in any political gathering since Edsa Dos. But he’d gone to the Mass because “it’s just too much, already.” But he said his own preference was for a real, genuine, impeachment in October, in which he saw little rational prospects for the President to be acquitted. And thereafter? “I think it’s clear that Noli could not possibly be worse than what we have now.” But if so? “People will be much more determined not to cut him or anyone that follows any slack.”
Another interesting thing is that sectors formerly deeply divided are gingerly coming closer to healing those divides. The President is a master of fostering divisions but seems weakened in maintaining them.
For example, while UST, which has great sentimental ties to the Macapagals has been largely silent since 2005, on Sunday groups of Thomasians showed up in their school colors and Dominican priests concelebrated the Mass; and while the Assumption Convent continues to express solid support for the President, the people at the Mass let out a gasp when a delegation of Assumption nuns participated in the Mass (not to mention the students, like Assumptionista i am obsess, who defied her school’s ban on student participation in rallies!). A student from La Salle Bacolod (a city where 2,000 had gathered for a mass last Friday) texted me this, a short while ago:
Hi po. Magandang hapon. We the polsci students believe in Lozada. ü
Last Saturday, the Inquirer editorial summed the attitude of such people: “Bring it on”! And on Sunday, the Inquirer editorial (which cites the President’s Friday speech and a Financial Times story) pointed out why the President speaks with a Forked tongue.
Meanwhile, Ricky Carandang says we live in a “Bizarro World.” Indeed, I believe, as my column for today puts it, that This too shall pass. There is the question of the Catholic hierarchy and even clergy’s involvement in the whole issue. See Randy David’s Saturday column, Should bishops lead political actions? Though I must say Fr. Francisco’s homily served as a reminder of the powerful and beneficial role an engaged clergy can play in clarifying things for society, politically.
At the end of my column, I tried to underline a point raised by Mahar Mangahas in his column, Social volcanology. This is the point Mangahas made:
I disagree with those who think that Filipinos have turned numb and no longer feel much social outrage. I sense that much outrage is underground, and can pack as much energy as a volcano…
Both EDSA I and II were brought closer to the surface by mass protest rallies, in 1984-86 and in 2000-01, but they were ultimately triggered by unexpected, highly publicized, events: the Fidel Ramos-Juan Ponce Enrile breakaway in February 1986, and the non-opening of the “second envelope†of evidence in the Joseph Estrada impeachment trial in January 2001. The former was brought to public attention by radio, while the latter was seen live on television by four out of every five Metro Manilans. (In the final stage of the trial, most Filipinos, including those who considered Estrada guilty, said they would respect a Senate decision not to remove him from office. Thus the overkill of the “second envelope†led to Estrada’s downfall.)Of course, the timing of triggering events is unpredictable.
The ability of these events to stimulate mass action is partly due to the public certainty that they were not stage-managed. People Power and volcanic eruptions are equally unpredictable.
The title of today’s entry is taken from Shakespeare, from Henry V (watch the scene in YouTube; had to link as embedding video kept screwing up the layout of this page; or you can read about it in Once more unto the breach, dear friends, once more).
Another apt title could be lifted from The simmering pot, in Mon Casiple’s blog. He says a new factor has entered the equation:
The difference today from similar occurrences in 2005 (Garci tapes) and 2006 (state of emergency) is the emerging broad consensus to end the GMA term sooner than 2010. Previous differences among the broad opposition are dissolving in recognition of the widespread unpopularity of the Arroyos and the activism of the middle class. The engine of disenchantment is fueled by middle class discontent (such as over the massive corruption, the rapid weakening of dollar vis-a-vis peso, scarcity in the local job market, GMA Marcosian tactics, and the specter of 2010 elections cancellation and continuing Arroyo rule). Two recent events–the JDV ouster and the Lozada abduction–are being seen by the middle class as indicative of the ruthlessness of the president’s team in their drive to maintain the power. It has led to their defending Lozada and to their manning the frontlines of the movement against GMA.
The great unknown, he says, is not if, but when, the pot boils over:
Is it the tipping point? I don’t think so–yet. However, this particular pot simmers, and if it continues to simmer, will ultimately boil over. The rallies, the masses, the statements, and open positions–all these are but prelude to a great political act by the middle class.
All the ingredients for people power are already in place and there is the momentum. Having said this, they are not yet ripe and are still undergoing the process of maturation. How long this process lasts depends on more events that logically should happen.
My browsers have been groaning under the weight of bookmarks and so I thought I’d present a sampling of different bloggers’ views on what’s going on. Marvelous, indeed, is Scriptorium, who compares 1986 to 2008, and the lessons learned (or ignored) since then:
What is it with the Comelec (komisyon on elections) and its leaders, we ask? We should have learned from 1986, I think, that the structural checks to Presidential power like Congressional impeachment and Comelec supervision don’t work unless they’re backed by institutional tradition as with the Senate and the Supreme Court, or by ideological focus in the case of the Church and the Communist Party. Without a tradition or ideology of independence, officials’ conduct lapses into a pure pragmatism founded on financial interest, which makes the Comelec and the Congress pliable to Executive manipulation.
…This makes us ask: Where are the heroes today who will oppose law with justice, might with right? They are still here, I believe, with different faces and names, the women and men who will defy a dictatorship in the name of truth. Ed Panlilio, beleaguered by cash-armed opponents using the oh-so-honest Comelec to get their hands on Pampanga’s cookie jar; the Hyatt 10, the Kapatiran leaders, and numerous others who left their government posts (in Atty. Harry Roque’s case, an ultra-plum PCSO directorship) to protest the fraud perpetrated the Arroyo Autocracy. Some, like De Venecia and Jun Lozada, are johnnies-come-lately who defected through force of circumstance; but, as the lives of Boethius and St. Alphonsus Liguori demonstrate, even those with initially imperfect motives may become heroes at the time of testing.
A general roundup can be found in Global Voices Online. A big deal? A Simple Life thinks not: and wishes it would all go away.
On a vaguely related note, see the amusing take on the scandal-as-drama courtesy of paolomendoza.
On a precisely related note, with all the large numbers being mentioned, DAKILA breaks them down. Read the relevant numbers and weep.
It’s interesting how people have been following the Senate hearings. See My Life and Inspirations (Feb. 8), Take it Easy, Smile (Feb. 11) who feels overhwelmed, and Sabistski Point (Feb. 12),while [slap happy] .an OFW (Feb 10) says the whole thing is fascinating and urges people to follow the hearings and make up their own minds. AKOMISMO Vol. II is using the whole thing as a teaching aid. the in’s and out’s of the twisted mind of the nomadic asian polar bear says it may sow the seeds for change (Spendor of Creation on Feb. 7, called it the need for “positive politics”). Law and ICT reflects on government projects in general. As does Lofty Quest.
There is, first of all, the question of Jun Lozada (who originally irritated My Croak). You can’t beat the extended Star Wars-based analysis (see Sylvia Mayuga, too) by big mango:
What was Yoda to do if he won his contest against Palpatine? Palpatine and his Sith Order had adapted. Yoda knew at that moment that Palpatine’s Sith Order had turned war into a weapon and that the Jedi still fought the Sith Order as if they were an army to be destroyed. It was why the Jedi failed. People didn’t want the Jedi. They wanted the Sith Order to rule. They wanted “peace, order, security.”
Yoda could have “won” that contest against Palpatine and in the processes would have become the very thing he fought against. He would have had to become Emperor himself and the turn the Republic into a Jedi Empire. How would that theocracy be better than a Sith one? Theocracy, Yoda knew was not the way.
People who wanted change had to fight for what they believed in and the Jedi should not be above them— but along side of them. In many ways those who want change and I count myself amongst that rank, we need to reinvent the way we strive for change. Reinvent how to fight war, just as the Jedi did. The romantic notion of street protests alone as a path to change is no longer enough. What must accompany it is a groundswell of effort.
A lot of people are asking why Congressmen who side with Arroyo still hold their jobs. The short answer is because good men and women don’t rise up to challenge them.
In Star Wars lore, the Sith people went extinct. not just because of constant war, but because the Dark Lords had interbred with the Sith. As our country is constantly led by people who value treachery, greed and lust for power, so too will most people adapt to those concepts as being the norm.
Also, people have taken to discussing Lozada in terms of his writing. There was his piece on Neri’s attitudes, (incidentally, Atty-at-Work quotes a comment appended to the piece, concerning one effect of the OFW phenomenon: detaching people from engagement in the political system) nd there is another piece, which people have taken to titling Mindsets of Inaction (I first saw the piece in village idiot savant; the piece has been endorsed by Lozada’s own nephew, so I take it as an endorsement of its being genuine), as discussed by former priest Ed dela Torre in his blog entry, A Peek into Jun Lozada’s Mind. A previous entry by dela Torre, Reinterpreting Rizal’s Ideas in 2008 is equally interesting, in which he probes Lozada’s keen interest in Rizal.
A radical offering up a glimpse into another’s radical thoughts, is, I think, something that requires reflection. The radical is dismissive of the limits imposed by the status quo, viewing those limits with neither affection nor veneration. This explains why a radical can be deeply embedded in the system, claiming to hold on to idealistic notions while being part of the system’s sins of omission and commission. This is why Lozada can preach love of country today, yet been found to be implicated in the wrongdoings of officials.
Lefthandledlayup (Feb. 11) says Lozada has no real friends. Tingog.com doesn’t think Lozada is hero, but he has the chance for redemption. Viloria.com suggests this, too.
Lester Cavestany identifies three crucial questions:
1) How come there are people who are not disturbed by Lozada’s testimony in the ongoing Senate hearing about the ZTE-NBN scandal?2) Why were there so many high-profile people who tried to stop Lozada from testifying in the Senate?3) Where do we go from here?
Strangely enough, I found my answers in studies made on battered women.
Those who express support for him (and the reasons why) ranges from a government worker, Irish’s Site (Feb. 
to coffeeLover::::brattygurL (Feb. 11) to i like taho for breakfast (Feb. 12) to a slice of wine.. and a shot of cake.. to a Thomasian, Planet Earl ; for a post-mortem on Lozada’s Saturday evening grilling, see smoke (royally pissed off), live.laugh.sparkle (who felt the opposite way) to Leslie’s Crazy World!!! who heard about it from her mother, and (apropos to those who think Lozada has a point, but bring it to court, like Ang Pagbabagong Buhay) see Uniffors:
To Golez, who said let the courts decide, Lozada said we have a legal system but we have no justice system.
While those who continue to harbor doubts, ranges from Iniibig ko ang Pilipinas! (Feb. to smoke (Feb. 13; yes two citings in this entry: she’s been on a roll); (among columnists those swinging from caution, to initial support, then swinging back to hostility because their close friends are affected includes Solita Monsod; on the other hand, columnists like John Nery say: be conscious of the nuances).
And there are those who express outright skepticism or hostility, from Beauty in the Breakdown to and Phoenix Eyrie, Reloaded (February 9).
A foreigner’s point of view: Torn & Frayed (Feb. 10):
I can’t see all this going anywhere. The Senate can expose the administration’s failings as much as it likes but an impeachment motion has to begin in the House and last Monday’s ousting of the Speaker by the pro-Malacañang block indicates that the president’s control over that body is stronger than ever. Lozada’s explosive testimony reminds me of Perfecto Yasay’s during the BW scandal all those years ago: explosive, but too far from the real center of power to prove fatal. Only when Gloria meets her Chavit—when someone in the inner circle finally turns the screw—will we see a “For rent†sign outside the palace.
There, too, is the decline and fall of Joker Arroyo: (though there are exceptions: Brown Monkey Theory said Joker made sense, too) particularly his fall in reputation as expressed by young people like memento and miss_choi, and lawyer marichu lambino, also, achacs den while faculty like USLS CAS Faculty Issues and Advocacies pointed out,
Joker Arroyo unwittingly hit on the truth when he asked Jun Lozada to explain why he didn’t go to London, as indicated in his travel request form, when he was already in Hong Kong. When Jun Lozada tried to explain that he never really intended to go to London (he didn’t even have a visa) and that his bosses knew about this Joker almost shouted and said “What your telling us that all these government officials are in conspiracy with you!†Hello Senator Arroyo, are you there sir?†Senator Arroyo, who used to be my idol, is certainly losing it. He must have been the only one in that room who didn’t know that yes, all of them from Litong Lito and Defensor, to Atty. Bautista (barred from teaching in UP and Ateneo for some kind of a misdemeanour involving a female student kuno), to Razon and Defensor, all of them were in a conspiracy to keep the truth about the NBN-ZTE deal from the Filipino people.
Snippets contrasts Lozada, on the other hand, with Miriam Defensor Santiago (see also Insert Foot in Mouth!). A contrasting view from Mad Musings of a Matabang Mama from Muntinlupa. Then again, Thirtysomething v.4.3 was unimpressed by Mad Miriam. 3sa doesn’t like the senators, period.
As for the question of Friday’s rally (lots of nifty pictures, by the way: see i will be a hot dancer, and Shooting for God’s Glory, Reggie… or NOT!, Nina’s Life Chronicled, as well as Wish You Were Here, and Oh Mickey you’re so fine you’re so fine…,) in Philippines Without Borders he was surprised to hear, on Thursday, that middle class office types intended to go.There’s this account by The Warrior’s World, who participated, having last taken part in a rally in the 1980s:
Today, I decided to make a stand and be counted. Even for a short while, I joined the crowd at the corner of Ayala and Paseo. Though i miss the fervor, the hysteria and the intensity of rallies in the 80s, i am glad i was there. kakaiba naman kasi talaga noon…
The wind of change is blowing… i was surprised to see that the crowd earlier where not your usual rallyista. there were expats, yuppies, makati executives. They were there, mingling with the masa.
The numbers may not be that huge, but at least i saw for myself there was something different.
There are those who expressed support, and were fairly pleased with the results. See and Half-swing (who likes the fact the politicians took the hint and didn’t make themselves the center of attention). Only God Can Judge Me comes out swinging at the rally’s critics.
And those who express opposition to the idea of rallies: see some are students, see wonderstricken: waking up creativity and A million girls would kill for my waistline.
As well as outright indifference: see LittleMisssPerplexed and paperchimes.net. Or who believe there are valid points raised by rallies but who, like Musings of a Media Strategist turned Retirement Strategist, who simply feels unworthy to be there. Steadiness… hates rallies because he thinks you should simply shoot all the crooks. Celebrating Life’s Journeys didn’t like the rally but offered up a prayer for Lozada.
Concerning Sunday’s mass,prior to it, Philippine Commentary has a bitch fight with Manoling Morato; leading up to it while ...strawberry-filled donuts… (Lozada’s nephew) was depressed, then cheered up; there are eyewitness accounts from SamutSari and Torn & Frayed (who also takes stock of the President’s situation), as well as Blood Sky, who said it best:
Day after day after day of hearing nothing but bad news, of hearing nothing but lies and cover-ups, of divisions, of graft and corruption, of killings and robberies, in this one morning, I saw and felt, unity. Under the roof of that gym, I saw and felt people of various walks of life from various sectors of society, just throw away the lines that clearly divide each of them, and come together to support a good man, a man who had the courage to just stand up to all of the farce, to all the deception and the coercion and just speak out the truth.
That kind of intense feeling burns deep in you when you experience it first hand. Even more when you see that everybody around you responds to it, accepts it and allows it to make them free. That’s how I felt the entire time, and even more so, near the tail end of the celebration, when they played “Bayan Ko”, and I saw the entire gym, myself included, raise our right fists up the air, as we sang that song, all the while feeling a chill down my spine as I heard every single one in the gym (well maybe not the younger generation who did not reach or have the opportunity to appreciate the song) sing with their hearts, sing with all passion.
I have seen many calls for change in this country. I too have taken let that call flow out of my mind, heart and mouth before. I wrote before that it does require a revolution to start change in this country. But it is not the revolution that a lot may mistake it to be. The Philippine society, not just the government and our leaders, but all of us, from the bottom all the way up, need to do a major examination of ourselves, and undertake the painful task of removing/changing all the deeply entrenched nuances and behaviors that we possess that cause our nation to deteriorate. These problems go way beyond the issue of corrupt officials. We can remove each and every one of these named perpetrators, remove every one in the current bureaucracy, even change the platform and type of our government. But if the behaviors, the nuances and the dysfunctional and distorted beliefs and ideals remain the same, then all those changes won’t mean anything. It’s just the same cycle all over again, with a new face plastered over the old one. SAME SHIT, DIFFERENT COLOR.
Change has to start somewhere. And if it isn’t apparent to the higher-ups, who somehow still continue to delude themselves into thinking that everything is peachy-keen, that everything is just fine and dandy, well let another concerned Filipino citizen add to that call. WAKE THE FUCK UP, IDIOTS!! Your shit has hit the fan and we all know its you guys. Everything’s over but the shouting. We’re all tired of the charade that all of you continue to put before us. We just want to go on with our lives, working hard to earn our keep, paying our dues without having to worry so much about our lives getting fucked over.
A very interesting observation, about the way people raised their fists during the singing of “Bayan Ko” during the Mass, from stuart-santiago:
…the singing of bayan ko, brought goose pimples. what a rare sight. the church-going middle-class with fists raised, many with great gusto, some self-consciously, and a few who just wouldn’t, or couldn’t, yet. oh, and one who flashed the L (laban) sign instead. never mind, they’ll get around to it, once they’re mad enough, and engaged enough, in the struggle for nation.
so is this a triumph for the communist left, that the raised fist has become the signal, too, of middle-class resistance? i think not. i think it’s mostly just the appeal of that palaban posture — it feels right (never mind that it’s left) and feels appropriate to the situation, as in dramatic and fraught with tension. ideologically, however, the middle-class is more rejectionist (RJ) than reaffirmative (RA) of joma sison, which is a great divide.
so how do we tell them apart, the true leftists from the bourgeois middle-class? i’m not sure about RJs, but certainly RAs raise left fists, burgis churchgoers raise the right.
A reflection, too, from filling in the blanks. And opposition to it from +livin’ lovin’ mania+ who says Lozada’s playing God, and Idiosyncratic Philosophy Leading to Infinity ; while are indifferent.
Then on the question of the President (who inspired a poem written by Chances in the Starlight) of whom The Write Stuff says the problem is her husband and kids. For all summers disease it’s a case of first things first: first the President, then the rest. But Spring Roll thinks all the right stuff are missing, thoughts echoed by Bong Austero who says this:
Let me get this clear: This administration is hopelessly corrupt beyond redemption and the sooner we get rid of these people, the better. But it’s not just these people. And removing this administration, and mainly by embarrassing and ridiculing it—which, also harms business and ourselves—should not be the only goal. A major reason why this administration is still in power is because most think that the people who are itching to replace this administration are doing so mainly for personal political gain. That may not be entirely true, but that’s the message people are getting. A taxi driver I talked to said it well: Better the thief that has been unmasked and has seemingly no pretensions of being moral than the people who claim to be imbued with stronger moral fiber.
But I have to ask: is he casting the net so wide, that it guarantees even the whales wriggle right on through? This extract from Brown SEO says it all:
This friend of mine which we shall name Tin and I had a heated debate on the capacity of the current government to govern its people that we began comparing the misgivings of one government to the other starting with the one deposed by the current regime.
Tin said: “Erap was tactless and other than being corrupt he was arrogantly corrupt. He was so arrogant that he even wags his corruption in front of his underlings. He wags his misdemeanors in front of his Military Generals… Imagine, he was supposed to attend a military parade to inspect the troops and he comes in a few hours because he was dead drunk the night before and he was complaining of a hang-over… they lost respect for Erap bringing him his own downfall. GMA inspite of her corruption she was well meaning to hide them under the table to keep them from the publics scrutinizing eyes… She was well bred enough to keep her slimy hands inside her pockets while Erap was not.â€
To which I replied: “And so because GMA is able-bodied to keep her dead in her closet and she’s really good at that you would still permit her to stay in power? Don’t you think we should be more careful of her because of that? We never know perhaps one day it’s your family’s carcass inside that closet as well as our country’s well being.â€
I understand her point well. As if saying that being able to hide ones own evil is a skill or a taste of genius, or to vehemently proclaim justice and yet get away with ones own farce is considered gifted in the realm of politics.
And this reflection, by bitchology 101, who is a nursing student:
it just made me wonder how the people in our government can tolerate hundreds or million dollar corruption when the people they are supposed to be serving couldn’t even manage to have a life decent enough. it made me contemplate again, having such kind of public officials, will there still be hope for this country? coz I’m starting to fear for my own future too.
my friends and i have been talking about that for some time now. Normal for soon to be graduates, i guess. we’re just thinking of the P70,ooo+ our parents spent solely for this sem, and the P15,000 they still have to provide for us when we review in summer. we were disillusioned by the belief that we can start working by the end of this year already(that is if we passed the board) and then we can start earning back all the money spent for our uber expensive education. but we were greatly disappointed upon learning that our monthly allowance today is even higher that the salary that we will be having as nurses. Add the fact that it’s so hard to look for a job these days, that is according to some our co-tams from the higher batches. so i guess it will really take time before i can be able to give back to my fam, and even much more time before i can finally work abroad. i still have a decade or at least half a decade to spend and to suffer here in Pinas. sigh.
it’s too bad that we’re still 2 years away from the 2010 elections. just like what’s been said in the news in chan7, there seems to be a “people power fatigue” coz more Pinoys are now apathetic of what’s happening. cant blame them. nakakasawa naman talaga. paulit-ulit lang, wala naman ding nangyayari. parang red bull si GMA eh, ang bumangga giba. punyeta. bleh.
oh well, what else can we do but go on with our lives right? and i guess pray, pray hard for a miracle. ganyan talaga ang buhay Pinoy. miserable but still nice in a lot of weird ways.
Finally, here are today’s readings.
First, the Sunday homily of Fr. Manoling Francisco, S.J. He differentiates legal truth from the truth necessary to reach conclusions about an administration’s fitness to govern:
RECLAIMING OUR HUMANITY
MASS FOR JUN LOZADA
LA SALLE GYMNASIUM, GREENHILLS
17 FEBRUARY 2008
Fr. Manoling Francisco, S.J.
On this Second Sunday of Lent, during which we are asked to reflect on the Transfiguration of Jesus Christ, I wish to touch on three themes that have to do with our moral transformation as a people: first, Ascertaining Credibility; second, Rediscovering our Humanity; and third, Witnessing to the Truth. In so doing, I hope to invite all of you to reflect more deeply on how we, as a nation, might respond to the present political crisis in which our identity and ethos, our convictions and integrity, in fact, who we are as a people, are at stake.I. ASCERTAINING CREDIBILITY
Jun, as Sen. Miriam Santiago has grilled you to ascertain your credibility (or was it to undermine your credibility?), allow me to raise some important questions to consider in the very process of discerning your credibility. Allow me to do so by drawing on my own counseling experience.
Very often, a young rape victim initially suppresses his or her awful and painful story, indeed wills to forget it, in the hope that by forgetting, he or she can pretend it never happened. But very often, too, there comes a point when concealing the truth becomes unbearable, and the desperate attempts to supposedly preserve life and sanity become increasingly untenable.
At this point the victim of abuse decides to seek help. But even after having taken this step, the victim, devastated and confused, will tell his or her story with much hesitation and trepidation. It should be easy to imagine why. In telling the truth, one risks casting shame on himself or herself, subjecting oneself to intense scrutiny and skepticism, and jeopardizing one’s safety and those of his or her loved ones, especially when one dares to go up against an older or more powerful person.
Similarly, it is easy to imagine why Jun would initially refuse to challenge the might of Malacanang. Who in his or her right mind would accuse Malacanang of crimes against our people and implicate the First Family in a sordid tale of greed and corruption, knowing that by doing so, one endangers one’s life and the lives of his or her loved ones? We are, after all, living in dangerous times, where the government has not hesitated to use everything in its power to keep itself in power, where it has yet to explain and solve the numerous cases of extra-judicial killings.
But Jun is in his right mind. His story rings true especially in the face of the perils that he has had to face. And by his courage, Jun has also shown that it is not only that he is in his right mind; his heart is also in the right place.
Hence, my personal verdict: Jun, I believe that you are a credible witness. And if hundreds have gathered here this morning, it is probably because they also believe in you. Mga kapatid, naniniwala ba kayo kay Jun Lozada? Naniniwala ba kayo sa kanyang testimonya? Kung gayon, palakpakan po natin ang Probinsyanong Intsik, si Mr. Jun Lozada.
Jun, we hope that by our presence here, you may find some consolation. Pope Benedict XVI writes that “con-solatio†or consolation means “being with the other in his or her solitude, so that it ceases to be solitude.†Jun, be assured that your solitude is no longer isolation as we profess our solidarity with you. Hindi ka nag-iisa. We are committed to stay the course and to do our best to protect you and your family and the truth you have proclaimed.
II. REDISCOVERING OUR HUMANITY
What makes Jun a credible witness to us?
I think Jun is credible not simply by virtue of his being an eyewitness to the unmitigated greed of some of our public officials. Perhaps more importantly, Jun is credible because he has witnessed to us what it means to be truly human.
Which leads me to my second theme: What does it mean to be human? How might we rediscover our humanity?
Allow me to quote Pope Benedict XVI, who in his latest encyclical, Spe Salvi, has written: “the capacity to accept suffering for the sake of goodness, truth and justice is an essential criterion of humanity, because if my own well-being and safety are ultimately more important than truth and justice, then the power of the stronger prevails, then violence and untruth reign supreme. Truth and justice must stand above my comfort and physical well-being, or else my life becomes a lie. . . For this … we need witnesses—martyrs …. We need them if we are to prefer goodness to comfort, even in the little choices we face each day.â€
Our Holy Father concludes, “the capacity to suffer for the sake of the truth is the measure of humanity.â€
Isn’t this the reason we emulate our martyrs: Jose Rizal, Gomburza, Evelio Javier, Macli-ing Dulag, Cesar Climaco and Ninoy Aquino? They have borne witness for us what it means to be truly human—to be able to suffer for the sake of others and for the sake of the truth.
I remember Cory recalling a conversation she had with Ninoy while they were in exile in Boston. Cory asked Ninoy what he thought might happen to him once he set foot in Manila. Ninoy said there were three possibilities: one, that he would be rearrested and detained once more in Fort Bonifacio; two, that he would be held under house arrest; and three, that he would be assassinated.
“Then why go home?†Cory asked.
To which Ninoy answered: “Because I cannot allow myself to die a senseless death, such as being run over by a taxi cab in New York. I have to go home and convince Ferdinand Marcos to set our people free.â€
Witnessing to one’s deepest convictions, notwithstanding the consequences, is the measure of our humanity. Proclaiming the truth to others, whatever the cost, is the mark of authentic humanity.
Jun, we know you have feared for your life and continue to do so. But in transcending your fears for yourself and your family, you have reclaimed your humanity. And your courage and humility, despite harassment and calumniation by government forces, embolden us to retrieve and reclaim our humanity tarnished by our cowardice and complicity with sin in the world. You have inspired us to be true to ourselves and to submit to and serve the truth that transcends all of us.
III. WITNESSING TO THE TRUTH
This leads us to our third and last theme: witnessing to the truth. In his encyclical, Pacem in Terris, Pope John XXIII exhorts that it is the fundamental duty of the government to uphold the truth: “A political society is to be considered well-ordered, beneficial and in keeping with human dignity if it grounded on truth.†Moreover, the encyclical explains that unless a society is anchored on the truth, there can be no authentic justice, charity and freedom.
Every government is therefore obliged to serve the truth if it is to truly serve the people. Its moral credibility and authority over a people is based on the extent of its defense of and submission to the truth. Insofar as a government is remiss in upholding the truth, insofar as a government actively suppresses the truth, it loses its authority vested upon it by the people.
At this juncture, allow me to raise a delicate question: At what point does an administration lose its moral authority over its constituents?
First, a clear tipping point is the surfacing of hard evidence signifying undeniable complicity of certain government officials in corruption and injustice, evidence that can be substantiated in court.
Hence, during the Marcos Regime, the manipulation of Snap Election results as attested to by the tabulators who walked out of the PICC was clear evidence of the administration’s disregard for and manipulation of the collective will of the people in order to remain in power..
During the Erap Administration, the testimony of Clarissa Ocampo, claiming that Pres. Erap had falsified Equitable Bank documents by signing as Jose Velarde, was the smoking gun that triggered the rage of our people.
Allow me to respond to the same question by pursue an alternative track of argument: an administration loses it moral authority over its people when it fails in its fundamental duty to uphold the truth, when it is constituted by an ethos of falsehood. When a pattern of negligence in investigating the truth, suppressing the truth and harassing those who proclaim the truth is reasonably established, then a government, in principle, loses its right to rule over and represent the people.
Regarding negligence: Do the unresolved cases, such as the the failed automation of the national elections, the fertilizer scam, the extra-judicial killings, and the “Hello, Garci†scandal, constitute negligence on the part of the GMA Administartion to probe and ferret out the truth?
Regarding covering-up the truth: Does the abduction of Jun Lozada and the twisting and manipulation of his narrative by Malacanang’s minions constitute concealment of the truth? Was the padlocking of the office of Asst. Gov’t Counsel Gonzales who testified before the Senate regarding the North Rail project anomaly an instance of covering-up the truth?
Regarding the suppression of the truth: Does the issuance and implementation of E.O. 464, which prevents government officals from testifying in Senate hearings without Malacanang’s permission, constitute suppression of the truth? Was the prevention of AFP Chief of Staff Gen. Senga and six other officers from testifying before the Senate with regard the “Hello, Garci†scandal tantamount to a suppression of the truth? Was disallowing Brig. Gen. Quevedo, Lt. Col Capuyan and Lt. Col. Sumayo from appearing before the Lower House an instance of hindering the truth from surfacing?
And regarding harassment of those who proclaim the truth: Are the abduction of Jun Lozada and the decision to court-marshall Gen. Gudani and Col. Balutan for disregarding Malacanang’s order not to testify before the Senate examples of punishing those who come forth to tell the truth?
By conflating one’s responses to all these questions does one arrive not at hard evidence showing culpapility on the part of some government officials, but a ghestalt, an image which nonetheless demands our assessment and judgment. I invite all of you then to consider these two methods of evaluating and judging the moral credibility of any government, the moral credibility of our present government.
Allow me to end with a few words about an Ignatian virtue, familiaritas cum Deo. To become familiar with God involves the illumination of the intellect, coming to know who God is and what God wills. But it also involves the conversion of the affect, the reconfiguration of the heart. Becoming familiar with God entails trasforming and conforming my thinking, my feeling and my doing in accordance to the Lord’s, which can only be the work of grace.
Familiarity with God thus entail rejoicing in what God delights—the truth; abhoring what God detests—falsehood; being pained by what breaks the heart of God—the persecution of truth-seekers. Familiary with God means sharing the passion of God for the truth and the pathos of God whenever the truth and the bearers of truth are overcome by the forces of the lie.
On this Second Sunday of Lent, as we contemplate the transfiguration of Jesus Christ on Mount Horeb, we pray that our hearts and minds be so transfigured and so conformed to the mind, heart and will of the Jesus, our way, our life, and our truth.
May the Lord bless and protect you, Jun, and your family. May the Lord bless and guide us all into the way of truth. Amen.
Second, the statement issued by former members of the cabinet, etc. for other officials to come forward (for background, see Calls for Arroyo, Cabinet members to resign mount and Ex-Cabinet men ask Arroyo officials in telecoms deal to resign):
TIME TO GO: A CALL TO OUR COLLEAGUES IN GOVERNMENT
We are former government officials who have held high positions in the current and previous administrations. Having participated in the highest level of governance up close and personal, we now feel compelled to speak up for our demoralized public servants and arrest the decline of our institutions of governance. In the past, many of us kept quiet, going on about our daily chores, attending to business as usual.
However, over the last few days, we, together with the rest of the country, have seen one man – Jun Lozada – finally decide that he can no longer be part of the massive graft and corruption that permeates this government. His testimony exposed that the corruption in the project he dealt with – the NBN ZTE project – is standard in what he called “dysfunctional government procurement processes.â€
Clearly, what Jun Lozada knew so terrified the powers-that-be that they unwittingly exposed what Jun called “the dark side of the state†– state-sponsored terrorism that had been rearing its ugly head in the various disappearances and extra-judicial killings in the past six years – and which almost took him as a victim in a botched kidnapping that the administration has been trying, with little success, to cover up.
In a sense, all Jun Lozada did was to confirm what we already know: Our country is sliding into moral decadence. He also confirmed the systematic destruction of our democratic institutions and the systemic nature of our problems. We have seen this in the wanton disregard of checks-and-balances; abuse of the powers of the President; the cooptation through patronage and outright bribery of the other branches of government; politically sponsored corruption, facilitated, not thwarted, by bureaucratic procedures; the naked use of power and authority through the PNP, PSG, NAIA, among others, to strangle the truth; and the deployment of cabinet, sub-cabinet officials, and the military to obstruct justice and cover up illegal orders and acts.
In the past, for too many times that we were confronted with threats to our democracy and to our moral values, our response was: “What can we do about it? What is our choice? Who will lead us?â€
These questions persist but, today, we can no longer stay silent. We can no longer ignore the reality of a government gone wild, wreaking havoc on our rights and institutions in a climate of impunity. We can no longer console ourselves in the strength of the peso, narrowing deficits, and an expanding economy. Even these ephemeral gains have not translated into a better life for the majority of our people, especially the poor.
The future of our country is at stake. Our democratic institutions are under attack. What we stand to lose is the moral fabric of our society.
We call on all government officials – Cabinet Secretaries, Undersecretaries, Heads of Agencies – who know about these anomalous transactions to join the heroic stand of Jun Lozada to come forward and speak out. We call on all those who know about the extrajudicial killings and disappearances to go public and tell the truth. We call on all those who can no longer endure this wrongful governance, with its structures of evil and unmoderated greed: IT IS TIME TO CUT CLEAN! IT IS TIME TO GO! .
Tama na! Sobra na! Panahon na!
Signed by:
1. Florencio Abad (Former Secretary of Education)
2. Tomas Africa, (Former Administrator, National Statistics Office)
3. Rafael Alunan III (Former Secretary of Tourism)
4. Tomas Apacible (Former Commissioner of Customs)
5. Senen Bacani (Former Secretary of Agriculture)
6. Angelito Banayo (Former Secretary of Political Affairs)
7. Romeo Bernardo (Former Undersecretary of Finance)
8. Gerardo Bulatao (Former Undersecretary of Agrarian Reform)
9. Clifford Burkley (Former Undersecretary of Social Welfare and Development)
10. Ramon Cardenas (Former Head of the Presidential Management Staff)
11. Jose Cuisia (Former Governor of the Bangko Sentral ng Pilipinas)
12. Sostenes Campillo (Former Undersecretary of Tourism)
13. Karina Constantino-David (Former Chairman of the Civil Service Commission)
14. Elfren Cruz (Former Head of the Presidential Management Staff)
15. Isagani Cruz (Former Undersecretary of Education)
16. Teresita Quintos Deles (Former Presidential Adviser on the Peace Process)
17. Benjamin Diokno (Former Secretary of Budget and Management)
18. Quintin Doromal Sr. (Former Commissioner, Presidential Commission on Good Governance)
19. Franklin Drilon (Former Executive Secretary)
20. Narcisa Escaler (Former Ambassador to the United Nations)
21. Jesus Estanislao (Former Secretary of Finance)
22. Fulgencio Factoran Jr. (Former Secretary of the Environment and Natural Resources)
23. Victoria Garchitorena (Former Head of the Presidential Management Staff)
24. Ernesto Garilao (Former Secretary of Agrarian Reform)
25. Peter Garrucho (Former Executive Secretary)
26. Jose Luis Gascon (Former Undersecretary of Education)
27. Marietta Goco (Former Chairman of the Presidential Commission to Fight Poverty)
28. Jose Antonio Gonzalez (Former Minister of Tourism)
29. Milwilda Guevarra (Former Undersecretary of Finance)
30. Cielito Habito (Former Secretary-General of the National Economic Development Authority)
31. Edilberto de Jesus Jr. (Former Secretary of Education)
32. Philip Ella Juico (Former Secretary of Agrarian Reform)
33. Antonio La Viña (Former Undersecretary of the Environment and Natural Resources)
34. Bienvenido Laguesma (Former Secretary of Labor and Employment)
35. Lina Laigo (Former Secretary of Social Welfare and Development)
36. Ernest Leung (Former Secretary of Finance)
37. Josefina Lichauco (Former Secretary of Transportation and Communications)
38. Narzalina Lim (Former Secretary of Tourism)
39. Juan Miguel Luz (Former Undersecretary of Education)
40. Felipe Medalla (Former Secretary-General of the National Economic Development Authority)
41. Jose Molano Jr. (Former Executive Director of the Commission on Filipinos Overseas)
42. Vitaliano Nañagas (Former Chairman of the Development Bank of the Philippines)
43. Imelda Nicolas (Former Lead Convenor of the National Anti-Poverty Commission)
44. Roberto de Ocampo (Former Secretary of Finance)
45. Oscar Orbos (Former Executive Secretary)
46. Ernesto Ordoñez (Former Secretary of Presidential Flagship Programs and Projects)
47. Victor Ordoñez (Former Undersecretary of Education)
48. Cayetano Paderanga (Former Secretary-General of the National Economic Development Authority)
49. Jose Pardo (Former Secretary of Trade and Industry)
50. Vicente Paterno (Former Minister of Trade and Industry)
51. Felicito Payumo (Former Chairman of the Subic Bay Metropolitan Authority)
52. Pete Prado (Former Secretary of Transportation and Communication)
53. Cesar Purisima (Former Secretary of Finance)
54. Victor Ramos (Former Secretary of the Environment and Natural Resources)
55. Amina Rasul (Former Chairman of the National Youth Commission)
56. Alberto Romualdez Jr. (Former Secretary of Health)
57. Albert del Rosario (Former Ambassador to the United States of America)
58. Francisco del Rosario (Former Chairman of the Development Bank of the Philippines)
59. Ramon del Rosario (Former Secretary of Finance)
60. Melito Salazar (Former Member of the Monetary Board, Bangko Sentral ng Pilipinas)
61. Leticia Ramos-Shahani (Former Undersecretary of Foreign Affairs)
62. Cesar Sarino (Former Secretary of the Interior and Local Government)
63. Juan Santos (Former Secretary of Trade and Industry)
64. Corazon Juliano-Soliman (Former Secretary of Social Welfare and Development)
65. Hector Soliman (Former Undersecretary of Agrarian Reform)
66. Mario Taguiwalo (Former Undersecretary of Health)
67. Jaime Galvez Tan (Former Secretary of Health)
68. Wigberto Tañada (Former Commissioner of Customs)
69. Rene Villa (Former Secretary of Agrarian Reform)
70. Veronica Villavicencio (Former Lead Convenor of the National Anti-Poverty Commission)
71. Deogracias Vistan (Former President of the Land Bank of the Philippines)
And finally, the statement of the Catholic Educators Association of the Philippines, calling on member schools to engage their students in efforts to understand what’s going on:
Speaking Truth, Seeking Justice
Setting Things Right
CEAP on the Events of our Time
February 14, 2008“No lie can live forever,†said Carlyle. “Truth, crushed to earth, will rise again,†added William Cullen Bryant. And forty years ago, Martin Luther King cried:
On some positions,
Cowardice asks the question, “Is it safe?â€
Expediency asks the question, “Is it politic?â€
Vanity asks the question, “Is it popular?â€
But Conscience asks the question, “Is it right?â€There comes a time when one must take a position
that is neither safe nor politic nor popular;
but one must take it
because Conscience says, “It is right.â€Following his conscience, Rodolfo Lozada Jr. these days has revealed possible corruption in the handling of government contracts. His confession has stirred memories of other allegations by other people of graft and greed in government, and is shaking the souls of many to speak and act in response.
What of us, the Catholic Educational Association of the Philippines (CEAP), an association of 1,252 schools, colleges, and universities with at least 2 million students and around 120,000 school personnel and faculty?
We too must speak, we too must act. For, as the same Martin Luther King continued, “Our lives begin to end the day we become silent on things that matter.â€
Silent then we must not be or must no longer be, if once we were. May not our lives end but rather begin in a special way this Valentine’s Day. Beyond the love we are expected to declare for the persons of our hearts, is the love for the people of our country that we are invited to express in this time of crisis in our land. Mere bystanders we cannot just be but active participants in the continuous task of shaping our nation’s life. In the words of Vaclav Havel, “By perceiving ourselves as part of the river, we take responsibility for the river as a whole.â€
For those of us who know the truth, we pray for the courage to speak it. For those who seek justice, we pray for humility in the pursuit, personal integrity in the quest, respect for others involved in the search. For those of us who must judge and act on what we see and hear, we pray for fairness and the will to make the good triumph over evil in a way that removes the bad, without the act leading to what is even worse.
In tandem with the Catholic Bishops Conference of the Philippines (CBCP) we invite our member schools and their constituents, our alumni and friends individually and communally to pray for guidance on what to do in these times of tension and difficulty. We ask our administrators, faculty, and students to bring to the fore the issues of the day, discuss in humility and decide in fortitude and love what we must do together as a people in the different parts of the country where we are.
We must seek to discover the educative moment and the lesson for life in the investigation sessions and in the rallies and other mass actions we may join. To our country and the world we must show and say that we will not allow dishonesty, corruption, indifference or neglect to rule our lives. We must look into ourselves and ensure that what we decry in others we do not do ourselves.
We should pledge to continue to teach and live truth, honesty and integrity in our own schools so that when our graduates leave us they bring with them not just skills and knowledge but wisdom and love to inspire and change the world.To this end, we link up with other groups sincerely searching for truth and justice. We encourage the establishment of truth centers in our schools so that our students, teachers, and staff are led to continuing awareness, reflection, and formation toward social-political engagement. We invite our members to support the sanctuary fund set up by the Association of Major Religious Superiors of the Philippines (AMRSP). We support the signature campaign demanding the implementation of the Supreme Court’s decision junking Executive Order 464 so that the search for truth is not hindered or compromised.
Jesus, the Way, the Truth, and the Life we shall continue to ask to lead us, accompany and comfort us in all we need to do. It is He, after all, who will truly set us free. The Holy Spirit we ask to enlighten us so that our external actions flow from inner harmony of heart. We remember the words of Will Durant: “A great civilization is not conquered from without until it has destroyed itself from within.†So we ask our Heavenly Father for the grace that we never neglect but ever firm up the moral fiber of our souls.
Our anger at the wrong and sinful things in and around us may we not allow to make of ourselves men and women of violence. We take to heart the thought of Martin Luther King: “The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. Instead of diminishing evil, it multiplies it. Through violence, you may murder the liar, but you cannot murder the lie, nor establish the truth. Through violence you may murder the hater, but you do not murder hate. In fact, violence merely increases hate. So it goes. Returning hate for hate multiplies hate, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness: only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate: only love can do that.â€
May our light dispel our darkness, may our love melt whatever hatred may lurk within. But in this Kairos moment, this time of grace, we, the Catholic Educational Association of the Philippines, with all men and women of good will, in our nation and in the world, in the name of the Lord, by the grace of His Spirit, in concert and in communion call on ourselves and one another to – speak the truth, seek justice and work to set things right.
CEAP National Board of Directors
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Kabayan on Mon, 18th Feb 2008 5:25 pm
Nothing truer said to reflect the sign of the times than in Shakespeare’s Henry V “Once more unto the breach, dear friends, once more”
The supposed Katipunan version, “Sugod mga kapatid!”
cvj on Mon, 18th Feb 2008 5:25 pm
Excellent column (‘This Too Shall Pass’! In terms of parallels, i think we suffer from having too many Marshall Petains with Joker (and Fely) Arroyo being the more obvious examples.
nash on Mon, 18th Feb 2008 6:03 pm
What? Assumption preventing its students to their right to peaceful assembly?
What a joke of a university.
Madonna on Mon, 18th Feb 2008 6:15 pm
I say folks that we, each one of us, write to our respective Congressman/woman for GMA to be impeached this year — no matter that majority of the reps are from the President’s KAMPI. Let us channel people power the legal way and build an airtight case out of the NBN fiasco. All the surveys since 2005 until the present say that majority of the people favor that GMA be removed from office so we are not without basis. Let us put pressure on those bozos we put on Congress to do their job of representing the people’s will. Hope I’m not sounding delusional about this idea. Will it work?
Jeg on Mon, 18th Feb 2008 6:24 pm
what is the definition of hakot? Bringing people who neither understand nor care what an issue is about, to a gathering, simply to give the impression of popular participation; this is different from a committed group mobilizing its supporters who share the common cause.
Nice definition. Some people are under the impression that ANY form of help given to people who truly wish to be there but can’t due to lack of resources is considered ‘hakot’.
The Ca t on Mon, 18th Feb 2008 7:14 pm
Didn’t you read Abaya’s letter about Joker’s wife?
cvj on Mon, 18th Feb 2008 7:17 pm
Ca T, if you provide me a link, i’ll read it.
Kabayan on Mon, 18th Feb 2008 7:28 pm
A brief blog from my link;
Excerpt:
All is not well in Gloria’s Paradise, the Middle Class simmers
As if to show detractors and administration apologists that the Friday the 15th initial protest salvo was not a fluke, the protest mass held at La Salle, Greenhills overflowed with people. Not sure of a heavy turnout, the gym where the mass was held was only able to accommodate around half of the 4 to 5 thousand attendees.
The recent composition of the crowd should serve as a warning to the Gloria administration downplaying the events of February 15 protests. The religious sector and the middle and upper classes’ vehicles filled opposite lanes of Ortigas Avenue from EDSA all the way to Green Hills Shopping Center as early as 9 a.m. shortly before Sunday’s mass. This therefore completes the different strata of society when we combine the largely low to upper middle class composition of the protest rally of the 15th and the largely lower to upper class composition during the mass at the 17th…
Lester Cavestany on Mon, 18th Feb 2008 7:37 pm
An excellent round-up of the vast spectrum of our countrymen’s views on this matter! But you were able to sum it all up with your title, “Once more unto the breach, dear friends, once more!” I hope that your call may ring loudly in our ears so that even those who are trying to overcome their reservations in having another People Power may find the courage in their hearts to accept that we have no choice but to take action.
Wala na po tayong magagawa kundi ipakita sa bayan na hindi na natin kayang tanggapin ang mga pang-aabuso at pangungurakot ng administrayong Arroyo!
Kahit ilang People Power pa ang kailangan,
Ipaglaban natin ang ating Inang Bayan!
DevilsAdvc8 on Mon, 18th Feb 2008 7:57 pm
assumption students can take it upon themselves to sue the school and bring this case to the court. ask help from some lawyers bec what the school did is clearly agst the constitution.
sustained pressure is what this pot needs. alright, they’re preventing rallyists from outright camping day in and day out into the streets. (like what happened in both EDSAs)
camping out in the streets is what brought those 2 EDSAs to grow into huge numbers. yun mga fence sitters, yun palagi ang huling humahabol pag nakita na nilang magtu turn na ang tide. typical pinoy attitude. wait and see at pag lumaki, sasali.
anyway, i still believe Neri is the admin’s Chavit.
one more thing. now, more than ever, the people need leaders. they need leaders to organize them. people in the provinces who are fed up and want to join protest actions should be organized as well. simple men like me do not have the logistics nor the capability to do that. not to mention have enough influence to organize something like that.
the admin may have the ULAP, but those guys are just men unrepresentative of the people who elected them. watch when rallies are organized in their cities, these mayors and governors will be surprised that their stand is not the stand of their constituents. and that is the biggest way you can blow out of the water this admin’s defense that only imperial manila wants GMA out.
look, we don’t need millions to mass only in one place. we can do it all over the country. just lead us sirs, and we’ll find the will to rally.
sustain the pressure, and get out the word.
Karlo Mikhail on Mon, 18th Feb 2008 8:01 pm
It is heartening to know that the wind of optimism for change is blowing again this time. This is a marked difference from the generally gloomy and cynical public mood of the last few years.
Mabuhay po kayo!
Mabuhay ang Sambayanang Pilipino!
mang_isko on Mon, 18th Feb 2008 8:20 pm
….hay naku. lumilinaw na!
mayroon palang “patriotic fund”. sabi ni neri at the very least P20,000,000.00 daw!
i say to lozada, “moderate your ‘patriotism’”. hehehehehe….
sa talong beses na pakipagtagpo ni lozada kay lacson, ewan ko na lang kung walang halong pananakot, este, pang-e-encourage.
mang_isko on Mon, 18th Feb 2008 8:24 pm
…i mean panunuhol, hehehehe.
sabi ko na the philippines is the most dramatic, ooopppsss, democratic country in asia.
mang_isko on Mon, 18th Feb 2008 8:29 pm
….tingnan nyo sa senate ngayon pilit nililihis ni lacson ang contention ni enrile na gina-guide (at parang tinatakot o pini-pressure) ni lacson si lozada sa kanyang mga sagot!
ayaw din ni lacson na mamention yong “patriotic fund”
hayyyy naku!
tonio on Mon, 18th Feb 2008 9:12 pm
hmmm…
the protesters were not on katipunan this evening. was it a lack of organization? or enthusiasm? or is it simply typically Filipino ningas kugon?
mlq3 on Mon, 18th Feb 2008 9:15 pm
tonio, here’s the gma news report:
http://www.gmanews.tv/story/81105/Hundreds-attend-Ateneo-Mass-for-ZTE-witness-Lozada
jim paredes was there, according to friend who just called me. said about 1,000 people held a noise barrage along katipunan before lozada arrived at the ateneo at around 7:30. a small ceremony was held; a young boy went up to him and offered him his st. ignatius medal because lozada was wearing a green ribbon.
mang_isko on Mon, 18th Feb 2008 9:29 pm
ton, paano maniniwala ang tao kay lozada, eh mayroon pala siyang “patriotic fund”.
ooopppsss, peso-pesong suporta.
ambot laang!
Mita on Mon, 18th Feb 2008 9:43 pm
I saw the Malacanang press con with Sec. Neri and it seems almost strange how he and Mr. Lozada repeat the same thing about they are still good friends and respect each other. After everything? Mmmm….I would understand if the friendship was an older one but theirs is relatively new although pretty close in a nerdy kinda way from the looks of things…no malice like some senadora insinuated of one of them today.
It’s almost like these two are still “working” together…what if…just what if…they staged all this to get the executive in a place THEY want. Actually, they have more than just the executive in the palm of their hands now.
From a few of Jun Lozada’s statements to the press (not a good idea for him to be talking so much and I’m surprised his lawyer hasn’t told him so) and in public, it almost sounds like he has a Messianic complex. Since he and Neri were so close, parang alter ego na nga si Lozada sounds like. I wonder if Neri is the same…
Can two men pull it off? Like Lozada said more than once, “Ang galing ko naman, ang dami kong naloko…” Di kaya? But not just one man….him and Neri? Strange conspiracy theory…but in this country….stranger has happened…
Kasi, the meeting with Joker’s wife and the meeting with Lacson and Madrigal were all initiated by Lozada. Parang na set-up pa nga sila through no initiative of theirs. What was that about except setting the stage for something bigger…like it was part of a bigger plan…
And, how did Lozada’s name get dragged into this in the first place? He had no official capacity to look into the NBN deal. He was not cabinet-level. Nakadikit lang sya kay Neri…isn’t that strange?
BTW, ABS-CBN should be censured by the KBP for that cheap shot pitting Lozada against so many without making it clear to everyone. All the guests said themselves they didn’t expect so many others were invitied. “Harapan” pa yung title…that implies a one-on-one in Tagalog…
mang_isko on Mon, 18th Feb 2008 9:50 pm
mit, do you notice yong pang-iinsulto (parang nang-aasar pa) ni lozada sa mga damit ng mga kausap niya?
…..ewan ko lang ha? nang-uuto talaga ito si lozada!
mang_isko on Mon, 18th Feb 2008 9:57 pm
…another thing, and what a pity, ‘yong slogan na “hindi ka nag-iisa” ay ina-attribute na kay lozada. bakit fixer ba si ninoy?
…nangikil ba sandali si ninoy? nag-corrupt ba ng “maliit” si ninoy?
kung gusto nila maghanap sila ng ibang slogan kay j-lo.
pwede na ba ang “moderate your ‘patriotism’”
hehehehehe…..
mlq3 on Mon, 18th Feb 2008 10:01 pm
ricky carandang’s explanation of why gov’t ended up ganging up on lozada on that program:
http://www.rickycarandang.com/?p=130#comment-9610
Madonna on Mon, 18th Feb 2008 10:06 pm
Agree ako Mang Isko re: the T-shirt thing versus the barong and the coat & tie mob. Lozada sort of was playing an image na kawawa. Classic lawyer trick to advise a client. In bad taste also to comment about Razon and et al’s outfits. But I watched the program from start to finish, and Lozada still came out credible overall.
Lozada is definitely very intelligent and streetsmart and knows what he is up against and is not beyond playing a trick or two. We don’t have a saint here. Now, let’s not fool ourselves the government has not just played a trick or two to outwit the public — but a whole sackful of shenanigans in the current ongoing war for public perception. All is fair in love in war eh, GMA, as a classic Machiavellian would say?
Mita on Mon, 18th Feb 2008 10:07 pm
He doesn’t project well on television, mang isko. kaya gulat din ako na puro labas nya sa television…good for the network but not for him, especially at this point when he is embroiled in something so serious.
sabagay, gusto rin ng Pilipino yung kenkoy na personality so I guess hindi rin issue. No disrespect meant, kenkoy is a common Pinoy term, usually a compliment, for someone who’s not afraid to appear funny.
tingin ko lang…and this is just one person’s opinion, it might hurt him in the end…especially since he has a penchant for dropping names left and right. I thought about posting this here before but didn’t want to send the wrong impression. but…isn’t there a danger he might drop the wrong name and he’ll look at more than just a libel suit? why court disaster when it is so easy to avoid?
Madonna on Mon, 18th Feb 2008 10:09 pm
sorry, that should read, “in love and war”
Mita on Mon, 18th Feb 2008 10:24 pm
Madonna, yun nga ang mahirap. All the players are counting on winning the public’s perception to a point na parang yun na yung end goal. What will happen if this is just tried in the court of public opinion? I want more.
It’s unfair to us and the country. I am hoping, against all hopes, the Ombudsman investigation will yield something that can actually be used in the courts….
I heard someone say this senate investigation can drag on until the Supreme Court hands down a ruling about EO 464…which can be this year or 5 years from now.
Mita on Mon, 18th Feb 2008 10:26 pm
my mistake, “give the wrong impression” pala…changed phrases mid-sentence..
mang_isko on Mon, 18th Feb 2008 10:31 pm
may naitutulong ba yong pang-aasar ni lozada sa isang tao tulad ni gen razon?
matagal na po akong walang tiwala sa j-long yan.
one issue no that is clearing the script of lacson.
….the patriotic fund. hindi ba kaya si j-lo tumanggap nito?
neri said at least P20,000,000.00 ang offer ni lacson and company.
TALIBA on Mon, 18th Feb 2008 10:59 pm
VP Noli De Castro should now distance himself from the Arroyo administration. He now has to make the most important decision in his life, that is, to side with PGMA’s government (who already lost moral ascendancy to rule and govern) or to side with the TRUTH.
Our prediction: It is just now a matter of time before the people (the true sovereign) withdraw their support from PGMA’s government.
The events that will unfold before our eyes in the next days to come are God’s will.
mang_isko on Mon, 18th Feb 2008 11:26 pm
….sa mga maka-katotohanan, wala yata sa inyo ang nag-uusisa, nagtatanong at nababagabag sa lumalabas na “PATRIOTIC FUND”! takot ba kayo na baka mapurnada ang minimithi ninyong commun(ist)al action.
…para yatang sabit si lozada at mga handlers at scriptwriters niya.
hehehehehe
Madonna on Mon, 18th Feb 2008 11:49 pm
Well, Mita, this is a political thing first and foremost (meaning it involves the public and the national interest and the future of this country), and only a legal thing second (simply a matter of the courts to settle which is the government line and their spin to the public). We should decide on our outlook and priority over this NBN mess and look at the opportunities it represents for the country for correcting or even overhauling our dysfunctional political system we have and not just the removal of GMA.
That’s why I personally believe that we should work for the impeachment (which is first and foremost a political exercise because an impeachment is supposed to be that of citizens rendering a verdict on an erring Chief Executive through their representatives in Congress) again of GMA — even if several efforts before have failed. And we should win this time, to impeach her on record based on evidence and testimonies of credible witnesses. We should work from the ground-level and go up and not leave it to politicians or the powerful groups to do the work because the past has shown that many vested interests were behind even during the ouster of Estrada. Edsa Uno and Dos may have been people power phenomenons in the surface but also a large part were power wrestling matches among the elites underneath. We must work to change the power foundation of our society if we have to have a meaningful change — and I think we have a great opportunity now.
We must pressure our elected officials and those who work in the Executive brach to do what is right and represent our desires. In short, the NBN controversy provides us an opportunity to exercise democracy in a deep way by making our leaders our accountable, and not just the President.
mang_kiko on Mon, 18th Feb 2008 11:51 pm
Pareho rin may manga scriptwriters ang mango iyon, kong sa babay lamang nga yong nasa administration dahil mas malaking Pundo, chicken feed lang yong Patriotic Fund.
At mayro-on pa silang Executive Privilege pag medyo Ipit na.
Kaya abangan lang natin kong sin-o ang may tawag na “Staying Power” sa Kanila. Ang Mahina Resistensiya Talo..
nash on Mon, 18th Feb 2008 11:52 pm
“Catholic bishops again clarified on Sunday that the call for “communal action†is for people to pray for peace, not for President Gloria Arroyo to step down.”
SIGH. This is the disadvantage of having the Bishops in the equation. Hanggang pray pray nalang. So what, are we supposed to wait for God to do something????
Bishops have such low standards. Yuck.
anthony scalia on Mon, 18th Feb 2008 11:56 pm
to whom it may concern:
aren’t you noticing something?
the people who cry for the head of the NBN-ZTE corruptors and corrupted ignore the entity that matters most in the prosecution of wrongdoers, the Ombudsman, and chooses to focus on the Senate – an entity that at best can only come up with a committee report endorsing prosecution to the Ombudsman!
don’t believe the Ombudsman? so where else can you go? the streets? no one will go with you. paano na?
why not focus all the energies/resources on the Ombudsman such that it would do its constitutional job of investigating even the President?
a refusal to be creative in pressuring the Ombudsman to perform shows that the concerned Senators are just for media mileage and attempting again to induce people power
The Ca t on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 12:02 am
cvj
here is one link.
http://alaverde33.blogspot.com/2008/02/lozada-wife-of-joker-arroyo-advised-me.html
problem with lozada, he omits several facts just so he will appear to be the one being coerced not to appear in the Senate when all the while, it appears that he talked to almost everyone just so he can avoid testifying.
Now, a cottage industry for his shirt and other stuff has just been introduced in the market. Sheesh.
mlq3 on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 12:07 am
anthony, you are misreading the situation again. the ombudsman can’t do anything until 2010. by 2010, the president could be prime minister and continue to be immune from suit. and people are increasingly coming to see that the zte-type messes will only accelerate as the president’s people try to make hay while the sun still shines.
that being said, i do think one person i talked to at the lsgh mass pointed out something more people may want than those gearing up to go to the streets, if necessary: which is to channel public pressure toward an impeachment in october.
but even if this were the objective, that’s where the increasing interest in protest actions is headed, too: to put fear into the hearts of congressmen.
why even sec. gonzales of injustice is suddenly buttering up the vice president. see his column for today:
http://businessmirror.com.ph/02182008/opinion05.html
he’s a wily old coot.
The Ca t on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 12:09 am
cvj:
here is another one.
The person just do not have to lie. Telling half-truth is the same as lying.
http://www.inquirer.net/specialreports/nbndeal/view.php?db=1&article=20080216-119241
Madonna on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 12:09 am
Pressure on the Ombudsman is also good. The Merceditas lady has apparently inhibited herself.
The Ca t on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 12:11 am
cvj:
here’s another link.
Saying half truth is similar to lying.
http://www.inquirer.net/specialreports/nbndeal/view.php?db=1&article=20080216-119241
rego on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 12:11 am
“Our prediction: It is just now a matter of time before the people (the true sovereign) withdraw their support from PGMA’s government.”
This has always been the case for so many years now. Predicting the downfall of Gloria administration has been the favorite past time of the certain sectors of the society. But until now she is still there.
There is another call from the ex-prominent government officials.
Rather than issuing predictions and statements etc etc, why not concentrate on the gathering solid evidences and building an airtight case against the perpetrators or even against gloria?.
The Ca t on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 12:14 am
http://www.inquirer.net/specialreports/nbndeal/view.php?db=1&article=20080216-119241
mlq3 on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 12:15 am
oh, and follow up for tonio:
http://neofiles.multiply.com/photos/album/75/Mass_for_Truth
perhaps you were somewhere else entirely?
http://joeyboy14.multiply.com/photos/album/307/Noise_Barrage_and_Candle_lighting_for_Jun_Lozada
pretty much the neighborhood where edsa dos had broken out: a friend texted me, “we’re here along katipunan banging pots and pans with luli!” half an hour later we (my friend, sans luli) were at the shrine.
BrianB on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 12:19 am
“I say folks that we, each one of us, write to our respective Congressman/woman for GMA to be impeached this year”
I hate to be doing this. There is something not right about my Congressman, and he wears his hair the way I used to – pathetic.
mlq3 on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 12:20 am
rego: e.o. 464 is one reason. she is also immune from suit until 2010. she is immune from impeachment until october. and meanwhile, her deals keep marching on.
again, no one is saying don’t prosecute. and the compiling of materials for charges is proceeding apace.
but the political question is this: can the country afford to wait until 2010, at which point the president has more options than the country? she can flee to another country, she can have cha-cha, she can use her office to elect a pliable successor, she will continue to enjoy the protection of the ombudsman… etc., etc. and until june 29, 2010, can deal, deal, deal…
rego on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 12:20 am
“anthony, you are misreading the situation again. the ombudsman can’t do anything until 2010. by 2010, the president could be prime minister and continue to be immune from suit. and people are increasingly coming to see that the zte-type messes will only accelerate as the president’s people try to make hay while the sun still shines.”
=======================================================
But do we really have to go after the president now or we have to get the perpetrators that teh so called whistle blower mentioned in his testimony? Why> You get mike aroyo first whiel waiting for 2010.
I think really think that the strategy of those goingafter the Gloria has been wrong eversince. They wanted to get Gloria first when it is easier to get thos people who are directly involved to the anomalies.
BrianB on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 12:21 am
blockquote>Hi po. Magandang hapon. We the polsci students believe in Lozada. ü
Can anyone tell me what ü” means?
rego on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 12:23 am
And after you get these small fishes and if Gloria is really involve then her administration will just cave in by itself.
mlq3 on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 12:28 am
rego, i think people are coming around to your view. if you notice, the pressure has been put, one by one, on the president’s subordinates: abalos, neri, the president’s husband, and underlings ranging from gen. razon to the naia people, even the ombudsman has had to inhibit herself (and maybe return to fussing about the anti-corruption song writing competition finals). so that’s going on.
but also, people are beginning to see that it leads straight to the president’s desk, anyway.
imagine this. nearly everyone agrees gen. razon is a pretty decent guy, and yet his career is going down in flames for having to defend an abduction everyone also agrees he wasn’t even at the forefront of.
rego on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 12:39 am
alright so that is a good development then . so from here till 2010 lets get those people first.
BrianB on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 12:42 am
Intellectuals have been proclaiming EDSA dead and now they wonder why not enough people are participating in rallies.
mlq3 on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 12:43 am
brian, does he wear a green lantern decoder ring, or am i thinking about another congressman from yorrur area?
Madonna on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 12:45 am
I hate to be doing this. There is something not right about my Congressman, and he wears his hair the way I used to – pathetic. — BrianB
Hehe, now what’s the name of our bozo in Congress again?
Aha, Congressman Al Francis Bichara humanda ka and brace yourself for our love letters.
In the provinces, we should organize our brigade — the students, the local business community, the NGOs, etc. –wow, that’ll be a whole lot of love letters and wooing pickets.
Remember folks, these Congressmen are way too easy to get. Ask Malacanang Palace.
BrianB on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 12:48 am
He has bangs. God and I can’t help but think he saw me once and thought big bangs was a good idea.
ramrod on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 12:55 am
Money can do a lot of things, even legalize crime (just hire the highest paid lawyer and pay off the judge, etc.) Isn’t that what organized crime can do? If these jokers here are still harping on LEGAL = TRUTH and those who can sue are more righteous we’re in deep shit!
I can’t believe it, its right in front of us but still some can’t see it? Since when was reality defined in affidavits? Since this administration said so? Hmmm, thats why the motorcyle used in the batasan bombing came complete with a certificate of purchase?
So what if Lozada cried? Martin Luther King cried, even Lee Kuan Yew? You need proof? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jcTh6d11TpI
The way I see it, these joker bloggers here are paid hacks or just plain fools. Get the realities on the ground! Do some leg shuffling! You guys are the worst quadriplegics I’ve ever known!
BrianB on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 12:56 am
I can’t stop thinking of Harapan. I wonder whether ABS-CBN didn’t raise the standards too high for whistle blowers. It seems to me they were trying to build a hero out of Lozada. Imagine if this entire thing didn’t work. How many whistleblowers would blow the whistle after seeing what Lozada had o go through to be believed.
The Ca t on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 12:59 am
how come two comments are not published?
BrianB on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 1:04 am
Yeah, they have been going around the blogosphere. I hope some admin people (hello MLQ) can catch them using the same IP address.
mlq3 on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 1:06 am
cat, they were n the spam trap. should be ok now.
mlq3 on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 1:06 am
bryan, dunno how and it might be expensive/.
ramrod on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 1:07 am
…And when Gloria leaves the protection of the palace, let’s go after her with a vengeance. Bring out all the corruption cases, without her praetorian guards and oligarch amigas and amigos, what is she?
Come to think of it, saan ba siya pupulutin if she’s not the president anymore? Will her rich barkadas still be with her like Erap’s masa? I doubt it, the rich tend to have different hearts…
BrianB on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 1:07 am
Manolo, just get short-stat or slim-stat plugin for Word Press. you’ll see the IP address.
BrianB on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 1:12 am
What am I saying, Manolo, if their comments have been approved, you should be able to see their IP addresses in the comments area, from the back page, I mean. Remember the Luli episode with the web hits. I think it was about charter change. A site claimed it had a million hits for charter change. It turns out all those hits were from five IP addresses.
kimosabe27 on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 1:13 am
And so it begins…
Although I’m half a world away, I send my prayers of solidarity to those who attended the gathering…
Padayon
“And Crispin Crispian shall ne’er go by,
From this day to the ending of the world,
But we in it shall be rememberèd;
We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother; be he ne’er so vile
This day shall gentle his condition:
And gentlemen in England, now a-bed
Shall think themselves accursed they were not here,
And hold their manhoods cheap whiles any speaks
That fought with us upon Saint Crispin’s day.”
Henry V Act 4 Scene 3
cvj on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 1:13 am
Thanks Ca T, actually i have already read the column by Monsod. (I thought you were referring to some other letter.) What struck me was that Fely Arroyo did not tell Jun Lozada to do the right thing i.e. tell the truth. It seems that the Arroyo couple (Joker and Fely) are resting on the laurels of their past achievements turning a blind eye on present abuses. That’s what makes them exactly like Philippe Petain who was a hero in World War I but became a collaborator in World War 2.
The Ca t on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 1:21 am
yes, i think abaya wrote Chairman Cayetano explaining the truth.
did you miss the part that there was no subpoena yet?
to whom shall he tell the truth?
Alonsagabi on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 1:23 am
The whole day (since last week) I was watching the probe on these obvious but still “alledged” evil doings of an evil “she” and which was interrupted by (dissemination of mind jumbling stories) the palace’s presscon.
Wow! you can really tell who fabricate lies or who tell the truth. Isn’t it obvious that by just looking at their face ,listening to their statments and observing way they answer queries you can really tell who did his assignment in this semi-theatrically manipulated political event or who do work on the backstage. (onstage-fiction, backstage-reality)
Thanks to Pimentel, I was afraid that my girl is conceiving a baby but now i will conquer my fear to become a responsible father. hekhekhek.
cvj on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 1:24 am
Ca T, what i meant was she did not tell Lozada to tell the Senate what he knows. That would have been the right thing to do.
The Ca t on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 1:25 am
Promise you’ll accept it?
The Ca t on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 1:27 am
This is my only vice. Don’t take it away even though we do not agree with each other’s opinion, there is the mutual respect.
Thanks.
magdiwang on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 1:32 am
I think this is totally unfair. People like me want our country ferret out the truth on all these accusations of corruption. But how do you believe somebody who dishes out general accusations without any basis. Anybody can accuse anybody of anything. Is this the kind of investigations you want if you are the one accused? I bet not. Build a a solid case against the president and believe me there will be outpouring of indignations and protest in no time. At this point in time, they have only innuendoes with no proof. There is more drama than facts.
Alonsagabi on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 1:37 am
“I think this is totally unfair. People like me want our country ferret out the truth on all these accusations of corruption. But how do you believe somebody who dishes out general accusations without any basis. Anybody can accuse anybody of anything. Is this the kind of investigations you want if you are the one accused? I bet not. Build a a solid case against the president and believe me there will be outpouring of indignations and protest in no time. At this point in time, they have only innuendoes with no proof. There is more drama than facts.
BAH!!!
=P
rego on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 1:38 am
Oh thank you Ca T I just finished reading Solita Monsod Column….And I just cant wait for this “Lozada Show” to reach in Court and everything said is under oath of perjury.
mlq3 on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 1:49 am
lozada can be charged with perjury for his senate testimony. in fact, he can be debunked by other witnesses. abaya is due to testify during the next session. fely arroyo should demand, to, too -except what if it turns out that monsod and katrina legarda have been shrieking lies, in defense of their friend? what then?
BrianB on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 1:51 am
“Build a a solid case against the president and believe me there will be outpouring of indignations and protest in no time”
You don’t need a case against a president, just evidence.
Kabayan on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 2:06 am
There are several possibilities that will happen in our nation; the Gloria administration will destroy themselves; the Gloria will destroy the moral fabric of Philippine society; or both. The answer to which of the possibilities would come true lies in the Filipino people themselves.
Alonsagabi on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 2:10 am
Eh, bakit kasi hindi pa tinanong ang mga ZTE officials sa simula pa.
kunsabagay kung tatanungin mo ba naman ang mga makikinabang kasama ng mga makikinabang sinuman man sa kanila ay pu-protektahan ang kanilang mapapakinabangan.
What if ZTE officials would deny it?
Hay talo nanaman yata si Juan dela Cruz…
Sa lansangan lang kayang lumaban; magpapaaraw, magpapagutom, magpapa-awa, maghihintay ng bala o tear gas o bumbero.
=’(
BrianB,
Would let your younger brother to keep the evidences if you did something wrong?
magdiwang on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 2:16 am
What are these people waiting for? This is a better way on how to unseat the chief executive than trying to crucify her on the media with unending allegations. Why air the allegations before doing due dilligence on the veracity of those allegations. Why go through this motions over and over again knowing fully it wont prosper. The current strategy against her makes our country suffer tremendously economically as it potrays us in bad light.
rego on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 2:24 am
what if it turns out that monsod and katrina legarda have been shrieking lies, in defense of their friend? what then?
=====================================================
Then let them suffer the consequences of what such actions. Let Tony Abaya go on with his testimony. Let Monsod and Katrina Legarda write what they wanted to write.
But between, Monsod, Legarda, Fely aquino, Joker Aroyo and Lozada, the choice is very very clear for I woudl easily go with teh four over Lozada..
BTW, is this the reason why, Monsod’s name does not appear in the signatories of ex governments of official listed above?
BrianB on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 2:31 am
“Would let your younger brother to keep the evidences if you did something wrong?”
Alongsabi. Don’t understand this, sorry. Must be missing a few words.
I hope you’re not one of the “rumored” and “alleged” agents the Palace has sallied forth to influence the blogosphere. Because I actually have a younger brother working for government. This a threat?
BrianB on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 2:33 am
OK, alonsagabi, obviously you’re not pro-Government, still don’t understand the question?
The Ca t on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 2:35 am
The teleserye is not very interesting.
Why did Lozada’s brother accept the 500,000 allowance from Gaite? Why did Lozada complained that he used his credit cards when he was in HK when he was expecting the agency to foot the bill.
Neri accused Lozada of offering him a bribe of 20 million. Is that the reason why Lozada was meeting both parties before testifying in the Senate? Naghihintay ba siya ng highest bidder for his testimony? What’s the patriotic fund about?
Abangan ang susunod na kabanata.
Bert on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 2:35 am
“don’t believe the Ombudsman? so where else can you go? the streets? no one will go with you. paano na?”
Anthony, ‘no one will go with you’, sorry na lang, swerte ni Ate Glo. Baka naman meron, tingnan ang susunod na kabanata. Kung ang papalit kay Ate Glo ganoon ulit kabulok, at ang mga alipores niya pati ang mga institutions na dapat kumilos para pangalagaan ang kapakanan ng bayan ay ayaw kumilos bagkus pagtatakpan pa ang mga kabulukan, ulitin uli natin ang istorya. Maaaring hindi tayo mak-abante sa ganitong paraan, pero umabante ba tayo sa nakaraang mahigit na walong taon na nakaupo si Ate Glo kumpara sa pag-abante ng mga kapitbahay natin dito sa SouthEast Asia? Nasaan tayo ngayon kumpara sa kanila? Gagawin daw na ‘fist-world’ country ni Ate Glo ang Pinas. Ano? Sa tagal na niya sa pwesto hindi niya nagawa, sa dalawang taon pa kaya? Pero may suspetsa ako na nanniniwala ka doon, ‘di ba?
Alonsagabi on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 2:42 am
“Would YOU let your younger brother to keep the evidences if you did something wrong?†–
—
BrianB,
Hey, I dont work for the palace.
My point here is Lozada is indirectly connected to the EVIL ONE, Neri does. Would Neri let Lozada handle the evidences, the concrete evidences.
That is why Lozada is asking his dear friend to turn his back from the darkness and join him in testifying for the TRUTH since he (might) has stronger evidences, the EVIL ONE’s text messages for example as per Lozada that Neri still has it.
—-
I once suffered hunger in pursuit for the truth. “,
for the record Mr. Chairman. hekhekhek
Bert on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 2:43 am
“Imagine if this entire thing didn’t work. How many whistleblowers would blow the whistle after seeing what Lozada had o go through to be believed.”
Can’t last forever, Brian, whistle will run out of stocks, don’t worry, hehehe.
Alonsagabi on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 2:47 am
“Imagine if this entire thing didn’t work. How many whistleblowers would blow the whistle after seeing what Lozada had o go through to be believed.â€
Can’t last forever, Brian, whistle will run out of stocks, don’t worry, hehehe.
—–
He could by it overseas! wahahaha… Bah! :’( nonsense
The Ca t on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 2:48 am
Fely Arroyo refused to become his lawyer because of Joker’s position in the Senate.
That time, Neri had not even testified yet.
It’s so shameful on the part of Lozada to twist the truth.
Alonsagabi on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 2:50 am
He could BUY it overseas!
(keyboard problem)
Bert on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 3:05 am
Seriously, Brian, I have reliable info that whistle blowers are in a queue now. Go, go, go!
BrianB on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 3:07 am
“lozada can be charged with perjury for his senate testimony”
This would be the first time I would hear of someone going to jail for telling a half-truth. Would the lawyers here disagree?
Bert on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 3:22 am
New Definition:
human rights lawyer (also inhuman rights lawyer)*1 ^ refers to husband and wife who defend human right violators. 2 one who prosecute human rights violated
Alonsagabi on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 3:27 am
I disagree, you will not be put out of jail for telling the truth telling lies will.
say:
“GMA is a short president but she is corrupt”
- telling the truth that she is short will not keep you from jail
- saying that she is corrupt would send you to jail because of perjury.
see what I mean? sorry dont have time to think for a better example.
Alonsagabi on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 3:30 am
cvj on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 3:32 am
Ca T, even if we go by Monsod’s version of events, Fely Arroyo did not do the right thing, and i’m not talking about the ‘legal’ standpoint.
hvrds on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 3:51 am
Tony Abaya, a well known influence peddler, brings Lozada to Atty. F. Arroyo for legal advice. She just happens to be the wife of Joker. Why go to her and not another lawyer for legal advice without that heavy network of political connections.
So what was her advice to a guy who did not want to testify? You do not have to if you do not want to.
What was the context and timing of the meeting with the wife of Joker.
What was the context and timing of Neri’s meeting with Lacson and Jamby.
Neri has been with government for most of his professional life. It appears that he was making sure that he does not loose his access to the corridors of power whoever is in power.
The primary foundation that Neri is totally clueless on is the workings of the market that demands full transparency. Capitalists are bad for capitalism in the sense that it is inherent in them to be as greeedy as possible. Govenrments that try to moderate this in instances when private markets are unable to provide the service in clear and transparent procurement processes.
The only weapons that a state has in moderating and arbitrating markets is the rule of law and that is embodied in fiscal and monetary policy.
Off budget transactions in the private sector are allowed but in government budgets and finances this is dangerous. Gocc’s, ODA loans, multilateral financial and bilateral trade and financial agreements are all off budget transactions that gives the executive a wide discretionary power without oversight of the budgetary process.
It is this one hole that has saddled the country with debts since time immemorial. The implication is clear. The legislative process which is the arbiter and overseer of the fiscal health of the country through the rule of the budgetary process is left out.
That is why the total debt payments of the country (principal and interest) is more than 60% of the total budget. It used to be almost 90% of the total just two years ago.
That is why you have indirect regressive taxes imposed on an unwitting populace.
It still boils down to therule of law – Implementation fiscal and monetary policies.
It is still quantitative change that will bring on qualitative change.
The bureaucracy has been beggared and cannibalized so when you try to implement fiscal policy it becomes a joke and the entire legislative, executive and judical institutions become simply cannibals.
All beholden to the person or persons with the keys to the treasury.
Then you have technocrats like Lozada and Neri who pride themselves on being objective and above the fray not knowing that they have become simply high prized prostitutes. Solita Monsod comes close to their ilk.
But that is the system. If you want to get ahead it becomes a matter of who you know who is close to the dispenser of public funds and power.
Look at Esperon, Razon and the rest.
Look at the Ombudmans office. Instead of subpeonas for documents and personalities, you have an announcement of public hearings on the preliminary investigation. A clear attempt at trying to control the message one sees in media.
You cannot investigate a probable crime through a public hearing. Everyone is guaranteed the right of self incrimination. However contracts, bank records, letters and email cannot be withheld from the investigators when and if properly subpeonaed.
That is how most crimes of this sort are proven. Follow the paper and money trail.
If Senator Peter Cayetano would wish to become a private investigator he should resign and become one. By strentehning the state apparatus for crime fighting you strengthen the state and make it just a little harder for the next person in line that crime does not pay. It would be the first in the country but unless and until a process is initiated at proving allegations is undertaken then nothing will come out of this.
BrianB on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 4:08 am
Indeed. Her husband is a Senator.
The Ca t on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 4:25 am
Is it wrong to tell him that he’s not bound to testify yet because there is no subpoena?
She is being asked of legal opinion and that’s what she gave him. She hardly knew him. She did not even know what was his extent of participation in the deal. Can Lozada explain in all 30 minutes that they talked. Even Neri was not scheduled to appear in the Senate yet.
Come on. Be realistic. You are so much blinded by the “hero ” who accepted money in exchange of his silence?
What is important here is what Lozada said to make it appear that it was Fely Aquino who initiated the meeting to silence him.
Hindi maabot ng pag-iisip mo yan?
hvrds on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 4:52 am
The Powers of Congress as listed in the U.S. Constitution.
The powers of the Philippine Congress are not as encompassing.
Section 8 – Powers of Congress
The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;
To borrow money on the credit of the United States;
To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes;
To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization, and uniform Laws on the subject of Bankruptcies throughout the United States;
To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;
To provide for the Punishment of counterfeiting the Securities and current Coin of the United States;
To establish Post Offices and Post Roads;
To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries;
To constitute Tribunals inferior to the supreme Court;
To define and punish Piracies and Felonies committed on the high Seas, and Offenses against the Law of Nations;
To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;
To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;
To provide and maintain a Navy;
To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces;
To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;
To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;
To exercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten Miles square) as may, by Cession of particular States, and the acceptance of Congress, become the Seat of the Government of the United States, and to exercise like Authority over all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in which the Same shall be, for the Erection of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards, and other needful Buildings; And
To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof.
Section 9 – Limits on Congress
The Migration or Importation of such Persons as any of the States now existing shall think proper to admit, shall not be prohibited by the Congress prior to the Year one thousand eight hundred and eight, but a tax or duty may be imposed on such Importation, not exceeding ten dollars for each Person.
The privilege of the Writ of Habeas Corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in Cases of Rebellion or Invasion the public Safety may require it.
No Bill of Attainder or ex post facto Law shall be passed.
(No capitation, or other direct, Tax shall be laid, unless in Proportion to the Census or Enumeration herein before directed to be taken.) (Section in parentheses clarified by the 16th Amendment.)
No Tax or Duty shall be laid on Articles exported from any State.
No Preference shall be given by any Regulation of Commerce or Revenue to the Ports of one State over those of another: nor shall Vessels bound to, or from, one State, be obliged to enter, clear, or pay Duties in another.
No Money shall be drawn from the Treasury, but in Consequence of Appropriations made by Law; and a regular Statement and Account of the Receipts and Expenditures of all public Money shall be published from time to time.
No Title of Nobility shall be granted by the United States: And no Person holding any Office of Profit or Trust under them, shall, without the Consent of the Congress, accept of any present, Emolument, Office, or Title, of any kind whatever, from any King, Prince or foreign State.
Bencard on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 4:59 am
neither lozada nor jdv3, or even neri, has been subjected to cross examination in a court of law by a competent defense lawyer of the person(s) they are supposed to have implicated of wrongdoing. let’s see if any of them will not wilt, or their testimony will hold water.
i would love to personally cross examine lozada and show the holes in his declarations, his erratic rationalizations, and his own ability to compromise legality and truth. something about his whole demeanor, speech and body language evokes suspicion of unreality, if not outright falsity.
those who hate gma, including certain senators, are already lionizing lozada as a “hero”, a paragon of courage and honesty. it seems, they would do the same to anyone (even a confessed “moderate” grafter) who would “testify” against the administration.
the talk about fund-raising for lozada’s defense makes me sick. what a scam! after fleecing his “friends” of cash on the pretext that he was financially in bad shape, he turned around and squealed on them suggesting that the “help” was a “bribe”. then, capitalizing on the pinoy’s love for hollow-brained drama, he made a spectacle of “returning” the money in the august hall of the senate in front of the largely partisan senators, spectators (including la salle’s nuns and ‘brothers’) and tv cameras. i’m pretty sure a lot were taken in, not to mention the hate-gloria crowd that needs no further convincing.
it appears that the hate-gloria crowd believes every word lozada says simply because, as far as its members are concerned, he is their newest “hope” for achieving what they are lusting for – the presidency.
nash on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 6:15 am
@bencard
“lozada and show the holes in his declarations, his erratic rationalizations”
and yet in your later paragraph, you seem to be sure he “fleeced” his friends.
selective are we?
hawaiianguy on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 6:42 am
There’s no way one can justify evil. Never! That’s the long and short of it, why people hate Gloria so much. She is the epitome of a govt gone mad, corrupt and corrupting, and rotten to its very core. At no time in post-Marcos history that a Philippine leader has earned so much disrepute as Gloria.
Sooner or later, her end will come. It could be sooner, because of the Lozada expose, and possibly aggravated by another witness willing to testify before the Senate this week. When it does, it may be worse than what befell Erap and Marcos.
That’s the most terrifying moment, when she goes down with the full weight of people who can tolerate no more. Corruption sometimes pays, but not all the time. When people suffer and see corrupt officials go unpunished with their insatiable greed, they will make a stand. It’s now showing up. Sectors of civil society are now shouting “Tama na, sobra na, kumilos na.â€
â€â€¦.the people are slowly converging towards the truth. If one person could be so brave as to be willing to tell the truth, then there are good things happening in the country. It is like the political conscience of the people is being stirred.†– Arch. Angel Lagdameo
BrianB on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 6:55 am
“would love to personally cross examine lozada and show the holes in his declarations, his erratic rationalizations, and his own ability to compromise legality and truth. something about his whole demeanor, speech and body language evokes suspicion of unreality, if not outright falsity.”
Maybe this is class discrimination. So he’s not as stoic as some very educated people. I find his body language honest and frank. Look at his eyes. Imagine recalling that many details Lozada was obligated to recall during the hearings and on the Harapan show. The eye movements are not the eye movements of a person using his “imagination.” He is telling the truth. Lawyers may claim to be experts on human nature but I find this a very dangerous presumption.
watchful eye on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 7:06 am
haha bencard, your pipe dream can easily come true if your flawless idol simply opens the door of the impeachment court.
as a first step, you can write a passionate plea to the palace for saintly ate glue to tell her house comrades she’s now willing to enter the ring. i’ll gladly sign your petition and i’m sure many here will. you should see my wide grin right now bec i’m imagining too how big mike will conduct himself on the deck. tough luck hehe.
watchful eye on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 7:19 am
btw, bencard, some seasoned lawyers that I know don’t announced their litigation strategy in public. have you ever crossed examined a witness before? just asking bec if the gov’t will hire you, i want my tax dollars spent well
hawaiianguy on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 7:50 am
Gloria is so afraid of having her day in court, before the Senate. She’s afraid of becoming another Erap, disgraced and despised much more. She, who is supposed to clean up a messy govt, may be found to be dirtier and worst. She, who loves to be photographed as saintly and devout, in the act of praying during cabinet meetings, may be proven as the exact opposite.
What a hypocrite!
Bencard on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 8:03 am
watchful eye, private defense attorney’s are not hired by the government. they are hired by accused people. don’t worry, you would not qualify as my client so you need not know my litigation experience or my resume. i could also be selective, you know.
Bencard on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 8:27 am
im a traditional practicing catholic but i’m really appaled by the sheer hypocrisy of the “mass” at la salle purportedly “called” by cory aquino and her dwindling cohorts. i wonder how God look at these people who were there, evidently not to worship Him, but clearly to agitate the people into making prejudgment against their own president, riding on the “stellar” performance of their “hero”, lozada.
this business of using God and his church for personal political designs must be stopped. the politicking priests and bishops are not helping the cause of propagating the faith. they are reducing the catholic church to just another political party, concerned about temporal power and dominance.
magdiwang on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 8:30 am
What made the president the object of your despicable ire?
She has been maligned, called names, verbally abused but I have not seen here being vindictive. She just continue to do her work without fanfare and produce decent results. The fact is that you can give your opinions without the threat of any sanctions speaks well of her government. It is wishful thinking to see her ousted with this new controversies. Same old playbook by the opposition which are proven to be ineffective.
mang_kiko on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 8:45 am
i wonder how God look at these people who were there, evidently not to worship Him,
Haya-an mo itanong ko minsan, baka masagot ako. Baka ito ang sabihin, “Di ba Demokrasya rin ang pamahala-an ng Pilipinas, kong puede magnakaw yang manga dapat pinagtiwala-an nang pera ng bayan, di puede rin magprotesta ang manga tao”. “ako nalang bahala pang panahon na nang Hatulan”..
mang_isko on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 9:14 am
….granting mga kaibigan na sinabi ni neri si gloria ay evil.
at ng umalis siya sa meeting na yon na pinag-ayos ni lozada. napagtanto-tanto niya na ang pag-offer ng so-called ‘patriotic fund’ na worth P20,000,000.00. this two senators were also bribing somebody.
kung evil man si gloria, nakita ni neri ang devil in bodily form sa kaanyuan nina lacson at madrigal!
hehehehehe, bwa ha ha ha!
mang_isko on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 9:23 am
…kaya iling na iling si neri.
ayaw nya sa devil na nagpapalabas na si gloria ay evil.
….hay naku!
sakit ng balakang ang mga senatong na ito!
mang_kiko on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 9:24 am
matagal nang manga evils ang manga yon, ngayon lang nabigtas, pero sa halip na mansanas ang i offer, milyong, milyong pesos or dolyar na. parepareho lang ang manga yon, pero dapat putulin ang pinakapuno, at iyon ay nakaba-on nang malalim at lalong lumalakas dahil sa masaganang abono ninakaw sa bodega nang Bayan. at iyon puno ay napaligaran nang bakod at maraming Guardia Civil sa Malacanang.
anthony scalia on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 9:24 am
mlq3,
no im not misreading the situation. on the contrary, it is you who is misreading the situation. you are putting much into it!
“by 2010, the president could be prime minister and continue to be immune from suit” is pure speculation.
with the kind of vigilance being displayed by people, the amended constitution that will allow gloria to run again to be PM will not be ratified until after 2010.
drafting the amendments will take much time. setting the referendum takes much time. not to mention the possible Supreme Court cases that will be filed to stop the amendments or the referendum.
also, the Ombudsman can do something at present. That Office may not be able to file charges against a sitting President but that Office can investigate the President. The immunity is from prosecution, not investigation.
if the ombudsman can’t do anything, who can? people power? The makati rally last Feb 15 is an indication of people power fatigue. A lot more should have been expected to come, considering that no politician attended the rally!
impeachment? perish the thought. A kampi-dominated House will not impeach gloria. putting fear into the hearts of congressmen? thats expecting too much. i doubt if the magic number of 70 can be reached.
unless Lozada will ’sing’ names of House members from kampi
or
unless many more revelations will be unearthed in the coming months
if you want this gloria-resign to snowball, persuade the opposition to shut up and let the others do it. gag the ones who will attempt to get media mileage out of it
remind the ‘Genuine Opportunists’ (to borrow someone else’s term) that EDSA 1 and 2 took place without any ‘instigation’ from the ‘opposition’ of those times
ramrod on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 9:28 am
Distance and anonymity are two things that make some people feel they can write anything in safety and outright obliviousness.
Meanwhile, I have to contend with talking to my brother in whispers as cell phones are barred in detention. Those who say they know a lot about the law should really look at whats happening here locally, arbitrary detention is as rampant as their incontinence.
For some of us who have a face in the society we live in its a test of character, we move in and out without fear unlike some cowards who just like to read themselves think out loud.
Three weeks ago, while I was in HK airport coming from China, I happened to strike a conversation with a fellow Filipino. As I have been giving away copies of the “Pulutan” written by Magdalo officers, I gave him one, and as the conversation continued I went on and on about Esperon. The conversation turned from cordial to somber, as he told me later on that he was Esperon’s classmate in Philippine Science, apparently he didn’t like what I was saying. Good thing boarding was announced, I went to the Business Class line, he went to the economy, but he didn’t return the book, I really wanted him to because my calling card was in there.
anthony scalia on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 9:29 am
rego,
“Rather than issuing predictions and statements etc etc, why not concentrate on the gathering solid evidences and building an airtight case against the perpetrators or even against gloria?”
that takes time, and walang media coverage yan
Watcher on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 9:32 am
Hmm… encountered an interesting article … it was predicted that if succeeding administrations of Philippine Presidents including Pres. Gloria Arroyo do not curb graft and corruption, and also allows foreigners to lord over the country, they (and currently PGMA) are in danger of not finishing their term.
navigate to:
Book 7 Page 1608, http://www.geocities.com/in_the_company_of_my_god/
ramrod on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 9:33 am
I don’t support any opposition candidate or any candidate at the moment, as the real opposition are behind bars.
anthony scalia on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 9:40 am
diyos ko day! hanggang dito ba naman, may ganyang mga comments pa!?!
i know that comment falls under constitutional freedom of expression. pero naman, huwag naman sana dito.
huwag naman sana nating itulad itong blog ni mlq3 sa ellentordesillas.com. mahiya naman tayo kay manolo
saka iho, be careful whom you call ‘paid hacks’ or ‘plain fools’. remember, it takes one to know one.
ramrod on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 9:40 am
Hey my comment is awaiting moderation.
Manolo, I never had the time to thank you. THANK YOU! I pray that we will eventually meet in different circumstances and I will personally introduce you to braver people than I am.
ramrod on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 9:41 am
anthony scalia,
I do the paying.
ramrod on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 9:46 am
anthony scalia,
Let me add “cowards” to the list.
Bencard on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 9:46 am
brianb, speaking of lozada’s “eye movement”, his rolling eyes, in combination with alternating smirk, sinister smile and crying spells evince either some form of mental derangement or a deliberate intention to hoodwink gullible onlookers. totally insincere, in my estimation. i suggest he be put on a lie detector test as part of the ombudsman’s investigation.
btw, i agree with the suggestion that all so-called whistle blowers who, at one time or another participated or benefited in graft and corruption while on the service, should be barred for life from holding public office, whether appointed or elected. i believe a lot of these people are nothing but disgruntled accomplices who did not get what they wanted.
repentant sinners suddenly wanting to do the right thing? my foot!
ramrod on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 9:50 am
anthony scalia,
Sorry, I meant “quadriplegic” as a figure of speech, no offese if you really are one.
anthony scalia on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 9:52 am
Before you point a finger at Mrs Joker Arroyo:
as per Tony Abaya, it was Lozada who asked to be brought to Mrs Joker. It wasn’t Mrs Joker who sought Lozada out.
what did Lozada ask her- should i testify?
the answer of Mrs Joker – you don’t have to if you don’t want to. (sa vernacular – kung ayaw mo huwag mo)
mlq3 on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 9:55 am
anthony, you yourself have listed down the reasons why the whole thing is headed to a confrontation, because theres no other means to reduce the political pressure.
i am frankly puzzled by your assertion the opposition of the time did nothing to instigate edsa 1 or 2. are you referring to some sort of alternative universe?
like today, people kept hammering and hammering away at the issues until the public finally saw the light.
http://www.quezon.ph/thecolumn.php?which=18
anthony scalia on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 9:56 am
ramrod,
“Sorry, I meant “quadriplegic†as a figure of speech, no offese if you really are one”
none taken, even if it came from someone who is one
ramrod on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 9:57 am
“the answer of Mrs Joker – you don’t have to if you don’t want to. (sa vernacular – kung ayaw mo huwag mo)” – anthony scalia
What?! Are we promoting cowardice here? We need to step up as a people, stand up as men! not hide and quiver like mice!
Jeg on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 9:58 am
Bencard, once again I must say that I value your legal opinion a lot more than your psychological diagnoses.
And if I might add, I certainly value your legal opinion a whole lot more than your theological treatise on redemption. I suppose after reading St. Augustine’s Confessions you went, ‘My foot!’
mang_kiko on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 9:59 am
i suggest he be put on a lie detector test as part of the ombudsman’s investigation.
Kailan ba naging ‘acceptable evidence’ ang resulta nang Lie Detector Test? pakisagut lang.
benign0 on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 10:01 am
“this business of using God and his church for personal political designs must be stopped. the politicking priests and bishops are not helping the cause of propagating the faith. they are reducing the catholic church to just another political party, concerned about temporal power and dominance.”
Actually I don’t see the point of all this public display of religiousness. In the Philippines the very same morons who one moment will be driving in and out of motels with this and that mistress would be knelt in prayer every Sunday with their kids in their Sunday best in their local Church (and driver waiting outside).
My point is, does this very public mass REALLY reflect the true nature of the rightness or wrongness of whoever organised it? How can it when seeing a person attend mass every Sunday is no guarantee of this person’s righteousness or morality.
Let’s also not forget that the Philippines is not made up only of Catholics and certainly not 100% heterosexual. I might remind everyone that the church continues to be adamantly opposed to homosexuality and its pope a vehement critic of Islam and continues to underhandedly undermine all non-Catholic Christian sects using the same tactics that date back to Medieval times.
So all this display of Catholic fervor to add a perverted sense of moral endorsement to what is nothing more than the partisan games of Philippine oligarchs is really quite amusing.
Fact remains, at its heart, the Catholic Church is still like any other religion — judgmental, exclusionist, dogmatic, and derives its power from making people feel like a bunch of losers (they just use the word ’sinners’ in place of ‘losers’ to give a bit of an authoritative spin to the concept).
Without even knowing it, Pinoys ironically continue to dance to the tune of the very oligarchs (cardinals and bishops not excepted) they detest simply by participating in any of these circuses (whether they be street rallies or religious spectacles).
When will the message come across to all: They are all the same.
Today’s opposition cretins will be tomorrow’s incumbent morons.
hawaiianguy on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 10:09 am
magdiwang:
“What made the president the object of your despicable ire? She has been maligned, called names, verbally abused but I have not seen here being vindictive.”
Correction pls., thousands or even millions do, in fact, make her as such. Public officials are a fair game, right? Not vindictive? But Joe de V says otherwise, and so do countless human rights victims.
“She just continue to do her work without fanfare and produce decent results.”
Maybe you mean, indecent job? (Hello Neri, aprubahan mo na ang NBN project! Hello Garci, will I still lead by more than 1 million votes?)
Jeg on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 10:10 am
And benny, I value your stand-up routine a lot more than your treatise on faith, freedom, and politics.
(For the record, Im not a Catholic.)
Bencard on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 10:20 am
benigno, in my own small way, i’m not prepared nor predisposed to condemn the entire catholic church of the philippines. certain priests and bishops, however, are pushing the envelope too far, effectively crossing the line between heavenly and mundane pursuits. bad habits are hard to erase. the spirit of padre damaso seems to be around in all its fury.
cvj on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 10:27 am
Bencard, funny you mention ‘pushing the envelope‘ in connection with ‘certain priests and bishops‘.
magdiwang on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 10:29 am
I thought its the other way around with regards to JDV. His son did not get the NBN contract and then he turned around and accused the government of corruption. What a poor loser. Who is more vindictive then?
JDV Sr then miscalculated about his hold on the congressman thinking he got the numbers, but lo and behold he was badly mistaken despite the support of the president.
Human rights victims?? Are you insinuating that the president has something to do with those people??
Hello Garci?? Hello Neri?? Has this been substantiated? Only people who have made up their minds believes on the culpability of the president on this. The last time I check they are still investigating this matter. Or did I miss something. Please clarify.
Mita on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 10:34 am
Lozada affirmed the explanation of Tony Abaya re the meeting with Fely Arroyo – under oath ha. He was asked directly if that is how things went and he said yes.
The advice for him not to testify in Senate also has to be put in the right context. According to Abaya’s letter, Lozada was the one who approached him about Lozada’s FEAR (again with the fear!) of going to the Senate that’s why Abaya brought him to Fely Arroyo. Then it was the same thing, Lozada went on and on about this fear. Arroyo advised him the way she did BECAUSE there was no need to go since no subpoena had been issued to him as yet.
Add and subtract just a phrase or a word and you get a totally different scenario, diba? It was implied initially that Mrs. Arroyo invited him for “wine and cheese” and meant to railroad his appearance at the Senate. WRONG.
I was shocked myself when that meeting was first brought up in the Senate by Lozada, Mrs. Arroyo is so low-key in her husband’s career (cause she has a career of her own I guess) that I don’t even know what she looks like…
mlq3 on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 10:36 am
this is of significance. ust and the dominicans have long maintained a discreet silence regarding the president, because of the university’s close ties to her father, dm.
but today, they cut and cut cleanly.
http://www.gmanews.tv/story/81163/Pro-Lozada-ads-appear-on-newspapers
hawaiianguy on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 10:37 am
magdiwang: “Who is more vindictive then?” Well, you agreed already, both. As to who is more, depends on one’s perspective.
“Has this been substantiated?” Be patient. It will come to a close pretty soon. If not, then attribute it to Gloria’s exceptional ability.
anthony scalia on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 10:39 am
mlq3,
yes i did, but it all depends on the ‘unlesses’
hello? who were the catalysts in EDSA 1 and 2?
common key players in both – Cardinal Sin, the military, the public
EDSA 1 – FVR, Enrile (they weren’t opposition at that time)
EDSA 2 – began by Chavit, brought closer to launch by Clarissa Ocampo, triggered by the Senate Brazen 11
mang_isko on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 10:43 am
to LOZADA: MODERATE your “PATRIOTIC FUND”, este, ‘patriotism’(kuno!)
hehehehehe
Kabayan on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 10:44 am
True enough, that should be the way it is; Administration and their leaders who espouse graft and corruption while allowing foreign nations to lord over our country should be kicked out of office.
Today’s administration cretins must be removed and held accountable. Moreover we must put the fear of God to tomorrow’s cretins who intend to make corruption a career by entering public office.
vic on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 10:44 am
Looking at the ads and battle plans of both sides, the line in the sand had been drawn, and the message is very clear, ala George W. you with us or the enemy..make your choice..
Mita on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 10:47 am
Bencard,
Do you think it just happened that states had to specify in their constitutions that STATE and CHURCH has to be separate?
He who draws the crowds into submission has the power after all….is there a better way of subjugation other than threatening with eternal damnation for your soul if you don’t follow?
I’m Catholic too, but FAITH is an entirely personal matter separate from the Church.
cvj on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 10:48 am
Ca t (at 4:25am), as i said i wasn’t talking about the legal aspect, but her public conscience. That advice would be ok if Fely Arroyo were a run-of-the-mill lawyer. Maybe she has turned into one.
anthony scalia on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 10:52 am
ramrod,
“What?! Are we promoting cowardice here? We need to step up as a people, stand up as men! not hide and quiver like mice!”
iho, put in context the statement:
Lozada was the one who asked to be brought to Mrs Joker. Mrs Joker DID NOT SEEK Lozada out
The possibility not to testify came from Lozada himself.
Mrs Joker simply said what Lozada wanted to hear.
The issue with Mrs Joer is – was she a part of the organized effort to prevent Lozada from testifying in the Senate? The answer? No, at least based from the meeting between Lozada, Tony Abaya, and Mrs. Joker.
iho, for your sake, do not turn off your discerning mind and ear whenever you listen to Lozada. The more he speaks, the less he becomes credible.
inodoro ni emilie on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 10:53 am
but cvj, do lawyers have public conscience?
magdiwang on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 10:53 am
Oh believe me. Ive been patient since the hello garci episode surfaced. If the president is found unequivocally guilty of wrongdoing, her base of support will vanished into thin air….but until then, people are keeping an open mind and will remain skeptical.
Mita on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 10:54 am
MLQ3,
why should it be significant? do you really want people to decide based on what religious organizations say and think? isn’t this a throwback, not just to Pre-War and Pre-independence, but to SPANISH times and Padre Damaso?
Kawawang Rizal…Susmariosep!
inodoro ni emilie on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 10:57 am
so it’s a throwback when it comes to dealing with gma, and not when dealing with erap and marcos, eh?
inodoro ni emilie on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 10:58 am
kawawang jose rizal, talaga. someone made a brazen lie by his grave.
Mita on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 10:59 am
300 years under Spain…because we were too lazy to think on our own? kasi uto-uto tayo? Ayoko na!
even if we’re damned if we do or damned if we don’t, we have to LEARN to think for ourselves…
benign0 on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 11:02 am
“ust and the dominicans have long maintained a discreet silence regarding the president, because of the university’s close ties to her father, dm.” — mlq3
This is significant as far as Pinoy society goes because Pinoys — rather than think for themselves — would rather delegate their thinking to priests and oligarchs.
So the opinions of a bunch of celebate folks matter a lot in this instance.
Remember: There IS a big difference between religiousness and spirituality.
Too bad not too many Pinoys comprehend this difference.
Mita on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 11:04 am
inidoro,
yeahhhh….which gave us Gloria and brought us to where we are now.
Who do you think will be delivered to the nation next? Where do you think we’ll end up again?
anthony scalia on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 11:05 am
cvj,
“…as i said i wasn’t talking about the legal aspect, but her public conscience. That advice would be ok if Fely Arroyo were a run-of-the-mill lawyer. Maybe she has turned into one.”
ang layo naman ng conclusion mo! even if prefixed with ‘maybe’
public conscience? you’re already assuming that Mrs Joker is as much in the know as Neri and Lozada when it comes to the NBN-ZTE deal.
Kabayan on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 11:06 am
Gloria is not indispensable, the earlier she realizes that the better
Mandaragat on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 11:10 am
Like they always say…”Ang magnanakaw, galit sa kapwa magnanakaw!”
mang_kiko on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 11:10 am
Halos lahat na korte sa Amerika, hindi tinatanggap ang evidensiya nang Popygraph Test to establish kuno nang guilt or innocence dahil ito ay hindi “Accurarely Reliable” at itong abogadong Amerikano nag suggest na dapat daw si Lozada i Lie Detector test nang Ombudsman. kong di puede sa Amerika, bakit irecomenda sa Bayan natin?
ramrod on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 11:11 am
anthony scalia,
Lozada is just one of those people who decided to come out with the truth, hopefully many will follow suit.
I was once like you and Lozada, perhaps because of fear or pragmatism (or worst, selfishness) – I just leave. When confronted with corruption in the military, I just left, when confronted with anomalies in the private sector, I left the country – better than wasting my time fighting it, I’m sure to lose anyway. But then again, life has its twists and turns (as everyone of us sometimes learns)…sooner or later we are bound to stand up for what is right.
Neither religion nor radicalism can dictate our conscience, unfortunately technology has not come up with a machine that can look into a person’s heart and see what he’s really made of.
mlq3 on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 11:15 am
mita:
the era of the father damasos was a time when church and state were one, when the king enjoyed the patronato real and nominated bishops, and emperors had a veto power over the election of popes. when the church tried people for heresy and handed them over to the state for punishment. it was a time when the chuch demanded uncritical obedience. this was a time when the official who supervised local election in the philippines was the friar who was also usually the only representative of spanish sovereignty in the locality.
that era is gone and not even the most reactionary catholic proposes its return, not least because the catholic church itself has renounced such things.
we have the separation of church and state but it is a clear separation in terms of not having a state religion and a prohibition on the state promoting one faith to the exclusion of others. we do not prohibit people from manifesting their faith in the political sphere. recall that in our first presidential election one of the three leading candidates was the obispo maximo of the philippine independent church, aglipay.
for that reason it’s perfectly acceptable for the church to move, politically, against the death penalty and much as i disagree with it, to assert its views on population. the church does not threaten people with excommunication for following their conscience and disobeying the church on such matters, as in rizal’s time. the bishops here are even more tolerant than say, the usa, where bishops have advocated denying communion to catholic politicians who support abortion (perhaps a moot point here as our constitution forbids abortion).
therefore a community ought to come together and arrive at a consensus concerning great issues of the day. they do so according to their values. kiwanis will do so in a manner different from rotarians and thomasians will do so in a way different from ateneans and upeans. but it’s incumbent on them, as a community, to do so. the ibp does it, there is no reason why alumni associations shouldn’t, and university faculty and administration should do it, too, since they are preparing young people for life in the real world, where they will be confronted by such issues.
now i’d agree it may not matter to a non-thomasian or someone without sentimental ties to the dominicans or ust. but for those who do, it matters. it is significant. the political sphere is about constituencies that operate according to shared values.
rego on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 11:22 am
I am wondering wether the hero worshippers of Lozada really trusted him that much. If he run for president will they vote for him instead of villar, roxas, gordon? Lozada for president, anyone?
inodoro ni emilie on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 11:24 am
rego, think.
alas ka dora on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 11:43 am
Build a a solid case against the president and believe me there will be outpouring of indignations and protest in no time. At this point in time, they have only innuendoes with no proof. There is more drama than facts-Alonsagabi
how would you read the disappearance of JocJoc Volante over the fertilizer scam. We would like to konw the truth about it, the president should take the lead in bringing out the truth but what did she do. How would you read the disappearance, albiet temporarily, of Virgilio Garcillano during the height of the Garci tape issue.What was the answer of the president when this was about to be investigated-she could not comment further than the i’m sorry speech to avaoid self incriminating statement. what can you say about the 500k given to each congressmen/governnors and now the ZTE deal. If the contract was done above board as claimed by cabinet officials, why then did she cancel the contract. The liability of the president lies so much in her efforts to cover-up the truth on legitimate issues concerning government transactions and dealings.
How i wish i am a prolific writer like Rina Jimenez david because in her column today she expressed exactly what i wanted to say about putting hard evidence or building a solid case against the president.
Liam Tinio on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 11:43 am
@ the pictures
well, there’s no harm in trying.. even if it fails..
why don’t they commit on building their evidence.. they have the estimates and the bids don’t they?!
Mita on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 11:46 am
MLQ3:
Separation of church and state is not just about designating a state religion. It goes farther than that. It’s also about NOT interfering in each other’s affairs.
Denying communion is public censure in itself but I don’t disagree with what the Church did after all, the Church has never changed its stand on abortion. It was the timing that was off. The timing made their statement a political statement AND an implied endorsement of the Republican candidate.
Churches meddle, let’s not be blind to that. The effect of that meddling is undue influence…let’s not be blind to that too.
If the price we have to pay for that is for most Filipino Catholics to lose their power of independent thought then I do have a problem with that.
If the tables were turned and these religious organizations were supporting the administration, wouldn’t you say it was foul and condemn the evil influence Macapagal and her family, living and dead, has/had on that particular organization?
anthony scalia on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 11:48 am
ramrod,
“Lozada is just one of those people who decided to come out with the truth, hopefully many will follow suit”
true
“I was once like you and Lozada perhaps because of fear or pragmatism (or worst, selfishness) – I just leave. When confronted with corruption in the military, I just left, when confronted with anomalies in the private sector, I left the country – better than wasting my time fighting it, I’m sure to lose anyway. But then again, life has its twists and turns (as everyone of us sometimes learns)…sooner or later we are bound to stand up for what is right.”
i don’t blame you for doing what you did. its your choice
“…unfortunately technology has not come up with a machine that can look into a person’s heart and see what he’s really made of”
which should tell you to put up your discerning radar whenever you listen to Lozada!
vic on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 11:53 am
And to further add to MLQ comments about the Church hierarchy “rights” to let their stand known in Political Matters or Issues, and has nothing to do with the constitutional provision of the Separation of Church and State, which meant that the Church can not and would not be allowed to function as the the Executive, the Legislator and the Judicial branch of the Government and the Government can not dictate the functions of the Church, unless of course it against the law of the land.
To further illustrate, when PM Paul Martin was proposing to enact into Family Law the legality of same-sex marriage, which the courts in many cases brought before them declared in violation the Equality Provision of the Charter (the old law states:”that marriage is the union of Man and Woman at the exclusion of all others” his very own church let its stand known and threatened the PM with excomnunication, yet the Church had been ignored as Rule of Law is the guiding principles, not the Church..
vic on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 11:59 am
And if some legal minds here wondering why the ruling of lower courts were enough to prod the Parliament to enact the same-sex marriage law, that question been asked by the Parliament before it proceed to debate the proposal, and the SC answered that so many same-sex couples already went ahead and got wed based on the Lower Courts Rulings, let the ruling stands.
mlq3 on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 12:02 pm
mita. but they are. the iglesia supports the president, to give just one example. the catholic hierarchy is divided on the president, and so, suffers from paralysis through analysis.
but personally think this is healthy, in that it has diminished the bishops as a political force. people who disagree with the bishops’ timidity or overprudent attitude have taken things into their own hands.
please review manoling francisco’s homily. it is not an order. it is a suggestion, coming from the religious and philosophical tradition he’s grounded in. no different from the way another citizen might approach it from the traditions that resonate with them. he refers to st. ignatius and for example i’d refer, as i did in my last entry, to more secular thinkers. the end result is the same: what to do?
you will see he is careful to distinguish what is the province of the law, but also, to distinguish what is the province of the things he is qualified (and the citizenry, too) to render judgment on; and invites others to do the same. it is something, incidentally, people who are not practicing christians can appreciate, too.
these are not actions by institutions expecting people to act blindly or to disobey their consciences or abandon their critical faculties. the opposite, actually. they are invitations to appreciating the need to think critically and judge for one’s self.
cvj on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 12:03 pm
Anthony (at 11:05am), i do not have to assume that she knows as much as Lozada. It is clear from both Monsod and Lozada’s account that Fely Arroyo advised the latter against testifying.
Liam Tinio on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 12:03 pm
@ the church’s and la salle’s move against GMA
personal/individual conviction should be the basis of your fight against corruption not the imposition by an institution or the church.
it would be unfair to those who belong to the same institution yet does not share the same opinion as you do.
cvj on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 12:05 pm
Liam, are you also a priest?
mlq3 on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 12:06 pm
incidentally, please refer to the section where i tackle the various writings floating around by lozada. consider, too, the jumbled chart neri is said to have scribbled.
we can’t delve into a person’s heart but we can delve into a person’s mind, particularly when they put things down in writing, without subjecting themselves to the parameters established by lawyers pro and con.
i think mita was on to something in a previous comment when she remarked that neri and lozada seem to be continuing to talk to each other via their public statements. i’m not convinced they’ve hatched an elaborate plot but i do think we should all take time to read what lozada wrote, because you might be surprised (pleasantly or unpleasantly as the case may be) by his analysis not only of the state of our society, but what needs to be done. his ideas are rather radical. i think it’s safe to say that they were influenced by neri’s, too.
Willy on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 12:06 pm
Sometimes we get our citizenships confused. The goal of participation of the church is to permeate and illuminate all aspects of the temporal order. It is a serious error to believe that the faith should be kept out of the public square, out of voting booths, out of schools, and out of courtrooms. We have dual citizenship, but not dual personalities. We can’t hide our faith as though we’re in some sort of witness protection program. We can’t separate our religious convictions from our activity in this world. The church has what we may call “citizenship status” whether we like it or not, and this regardless of denominational affiliation, and will express political views within the realm of legitimacy and its social doctrine.
tonio on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 12:09 pm
thanks sir. so they brought it inside last night.
ramrod on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 12:11 pm
Lozada is not a hero in my book but just a man who got trapped into a corner and forced to decide.
On the other hand, he could have had a well-provided life, no paper trail, with all the cold cash he can have (no need to liquidate) and on the other – be hounded by libel suits by powerful people with all the affidavits they can muster. The support of the church? Honestly, I have never felt secure in one. My idea of secure location is an undisclosed island somewhere, with lots of pinacoladas and hard bodied swim suit competition level unignorant women traipsing along the sand. I say “unignorant” because these types normally just “ignore me.”
I most certainly will not vote for him for president, we deserve someone better, one that has not been tainted with corruption, patronage politics, and who will turn his back on compromise no matter how financially rewarding or expedient. The downfall of most leaders is that in their quest for achievement or even genuine concern for their people, they sell their souls to the devil.
Will we ever find one in this broken society of ours? It reminds me of one comment made 2000 years ago – nothing good comes out of Nazareth!
magdiwang on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 12:15 pm
These are all the controversies that has been dogging her presidency. I read and think about them as mere allegations and not fully substantiated. I believe the senate has look at this issues over and over again and spent many hours investigating them. Didnt they?? Did they come up with something?? Have they legislated laws to prevent this from happening? Did they find convincing evidence that the president has done something illegal? Go tell me. Do our senators really looking for the truth? How come the cant come on any definite conclusions. Do you think people will just go to the streets and demand her head because of these unfounded accusations? I dont think so. We are all seeking good governance here….but I will not hastily convict a person based on claims which did not pass rigorous legal proceedings.
ramrod on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 12:17 pm
mlq3,
Re the jumbled chart Neri is supposed to have scribble – its a topic we have been tossing around in this blog for the longest time. It didn’t need Neri’s scholastic achievements, some people are more discerning than others, unfortunately, its something most try to ignore as its true, they who hold the purse strings rule.
I’m hoping we’ll finally get a president who’ll say THE PHILIPPINES IS NOT FOR SALE! or THE PHILIPPINES IS NON-NEGOTIABLE!
vic on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 12:18 pm
And I don’t see anything wrong with the Church and the State co-operating with each other. With such co-operation, 600 thousands of Catholic students out of 2 millions total students enjoying the same Publicly funded pre-university education. And the Church do not object the teaching of Sex-Education in their school as they have to follow the Public school curriculum.
tonio on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 12:19 pm
ooh, what’s this? the nerds want to be kingmakers now? not likely, more likely than not, they’re (Lozada and Neri) maneuvering to for the best possible exit from this situation.
if it just doesn’t look so obvious that they’re milking the situation… i would say this is pretty effective, albeit pretty awkward, attempt at brinksmanship.
anthony scalia on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 12:21 pm
cvj,
why then are you saying that she has become a run-of-the-mill lawyer (maybe)? just because she didnt follow her public conscience? she knows next to nothing about the NBN-ZTE deal, so she can’t give any advice, other than saying what Lozada wants to hear!
there it goes again – ‘advised…against testifying’
please be specific – Mrs Joker’s ‘advice against testifying’ is not the same ‘advice against testifying’ given by Atienza
please do not ignore the context!
can’t you get the nuance? ‘you don’t have to IF you don’t to’ is a lot different from ‘don’t testify’
Mrs Joker told Lozada ‘you don’t have to IF you don’t want to’ not ‘don’t testify’
Was Mrs Joker ever mentioned by Lozada outside the ‘interview time’ of Joker?
ramrod on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 12:24 pm
“Rigorous legal proceedings?” Have you ever been to one in the Philippines? Its like asking for honest elections. I advise you to go sit in in any proceeding, try the hearings of Querubin, Lim, et al.
ramrod on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 12:26 pm
“can’t you get the nuance? ‘you don’t have to IF you don’t to’ is a lot different from ‘don’t testify’” – anthony scalia
Its a lot different from DO WHAT YOU BELIEVE IS RIGHT, being a staunch believer in human rights, I’ll be with you all the way…
james on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 12:35 pm
from Joho Robles of MST
The message—especially to the major business groups who refuse to rally to the flag being waved by Lozada and his holier-than-thou handlers—is as terrifying as it is simple: The dubious truth-seekers and discredited moral revolutionaries will not hesitate to burn down the house if they don’t get the political power that they want.
“crusades†mounted by politicians and other pressure groups like the adventurist segments of the Church and the military, guessing correctly that most of these campaigns are thinly disguised efforts to get themselves or their favored ones yet another shot at political dominance. The self-serving and comical call of that disgraced congressman from Pangasinan, Jose de Venecia, for a “moral revolution†is a perfect example.
Silent Waters on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 12:40 pm
mlq3
I sensed the same….Neri talking to Lozada in public and vice versa….I just don’t know if they’re playing this deliberate game of playing kingmaker…
cvj on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 12:41 pm
Thanks Ramrod (at 12:26pm), that’s what i was trying to say. Monsod builds her friend up (“credibility and integrity I do not question“) in one paragraph only to inadvertently reveal what’s she’s really made of. Maybe Mr. and Mrs. Joker Arroyo used up all their heroism during the Marcos years.
ramrod on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 12:41 pm
james,
If I had not known one of Gloria’s former cabinet men JB Santos, I would have listened to Robles (and you). But then again, who are you? Just another faceless, anonymous mouse of a man. Or woman?
Kabayan on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 12:42 pm
As Neri had said, our government is an Oligarchy (government ruled by the rich) as such our nation suffers. I take it one step beyond that description. We are in fact (as I coined the definition), an Oligarchic Syndicracy, government run by the rich and the criminal syndicates.
How short the memories of some people here are, from the Garci Scandal up to the Lozada expose, Gloria’s henchmen and allies simply would not stop. They have lost their moral bearings and look at the coffers or our nation as an unprotected bank ripe for pillage.
To enable her and associates to last longer than they should have they instituted and maintained; Cover-ups E.O.s, lies, Black ops goons, Wiretap technicians, an insane head of the Department of Injustice, Tongressmen leashed and fed by Pork, appointed COMELEC stooges, Generals from the PNP and AFP wrapped around her little fingers, crooked lawyers, big business partners-in-crime, hacks and supporters with no moral backbone; all with the common denominator… a promise of money, protection, power, and security. A mafia style governance indeed.
We are worse than an Oligarchy, we are an Oligarchic Sydicracy.
mlq3 on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 12:47 pm
fyi here’s the ad published by ust:
http://averyseriousblog.blogspot.com/2008/02/jun-lozada-thomasian.html
Floyd Buenavente on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 12:49 pm
But above all the ultimate question should be “Will the church continue its campaign of Morality and would go to the ends of the country to gain support against the current government?â€
By the way thanks for the quote Sir Manolo ^_^
alas ka dora on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 12:50 pm
Magdiwang,
How can the senate come up with a workable solution and complete conclusion when its efforts to do so is blocked by eo 464
cvj on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 12:54 pm
Kabayan, i think the Lozada and Neri (both technocrats btw) share the belief in the evils of the Oligarchy (i.e. what you term as the Oligarchic syndicracy). Where they disagree is on how to deal with it. Neri still chooses to work within the system and is thereby coopted while Lozada was forced to opt out because of a bungled kidnapping. Beyond the issue of Gloria Arroyo, the next step would be to spring clean these oligarchs and prevent the emergence of new ones. This task is overdue.
ramrod on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 12:56 pm
kabayan,
Its a pity they also cannibalize the so called “intelligence funds” – do you know that the ISAFP guys has to stop recording to download what they wire tapped or eavesdrop, every now and then (more now than then) because their equipment lacks the memory capacity? Its comical really.
Willy on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 12:58 pm
Kabayan,
Oligargic Syndicracy – that is a nice insight.
Earlier mql3 said “the political sphere is about constituencies that operate according to shared values.”. The “Oligarchic Syndicracy” is guided by their own
version of shared “values”. I guess the fight is all about having the right values being shared at the helm. Its a much tougher fight than just replacing people and names.
alas ka dora on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 1:05 pm
Speaking of oligarchs, since the name of Enrique Razon was dropped by Lozada, it is worth looking into how Razon got to buy transco. Transco is being sold to Razon for ____ pesos but will issue bonds as payments. meaning, ibibigay ka razon ang transco and from the income of transco he will try to make good on the bonds. ang utak ano parang ginisa sa sariling mantika mga pilipino
ramrod on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 1:06 pm
kabayan,
Be careful, the use of Oligarchic Syndicracy may well be used to label you (and us) as communists. Come to think of it, I was really into this red scare for the most part of my adult life – but when I saw China up close…it made me think, was the red scare real? or was it another form of indoctrination?
Kabayan on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 1:11 pm
Willy,
That is true, they have “shared values”, a sub-culture if you may, wherein what is considered immoral in the larger Philippine society is simply normal and acceptable to them.
This “shared values” are maintained through a certain code of conduct which is also enforced by their own kind. As such, they have a Justice Department which upholds their kind of justice, top officers in the Police and Military who protect and implement their interpretation of the law, and the sea of legislators who implement their own version of lawmaking and decision making… ad nauseoum . Thus in reality, they are a society, a government, a “subculture” of their own distinct from what is the norm in society.
Abe N. Margallo on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 1:11 pm
you might be surprised (pleasantly or unpleasantly as the case may be) by (lozada’s) analysis not only of the state of our society, but what needs to be done. his ideas are rather radical. i think it’s safe to say that they were influenced by neri’s, too. – mlq3
I getting the same reading, manolo, sort of the revolt of the bureaucrats – the silent insiders who know it all… the rotten eggs inside out the stench of which has been suffocating them for eons (the probinsyanong intsiks, a good clue) – against the taipans, the oligarchs, the inner circles of power). We could add this to our lexicon, the “bureaucrat power.”
ace on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 1:12 pm
The issue regarding Fely Arroyo(Mrs. Joker Arroyo) and Lozada is all about delicadeza.
Most likely, Tony Abaya called her up first to make an appointment just to make sure she’s around when they arrived and most likely, Fely Arroyo naturally will ask Tony Abaya why they want an appointment. So, Tony Abaya will tell her about the reason (ZTE-NBN and legal advise regarding Lozada’s appearance before the Senate Blue Ribbon Committee). Right there and then Fely Arroyo should have declined the meeting being sought by Abaya and Lozada out of delicadeza mainly because her husband is a senator (member and used to be the chairman of the Blue Ribbon Committee), that even if she wants to be of help to Lozada she will be seen as compromising the institution her husband represents.
Ang dami-dami namang abogado diyan, maliban na lamang kung may iba pa silang sadya.
anthony scalia on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 1:15 pm
ramrod,
“Its a lot different from DO WHAT YOU BELIEVE IS RIGHT, being a staunch believer in human rights, I’ll be with you all the way”
haay naku. isa pang sablay na obserbasyon.
anthony scalia on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 1:17 pm
cvj,
“Maybe Mr. and Mrs. Joker Arroyo used up all their heroism during the Marcos years”
you will really believe what you want to believe, right cvj? your mind is made up on Mr and Mrs Joker, so you don’t want to be confused with the facts
Kabayan on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 1:18 pm
ramrod,
I made a blog article in my new blogsite at bayanikabayan.blogspot.com/ regarding the Red scare or what is accurately known as McCarthyism.
Currently this administration want to mix the Communists and the “Destabilizers” label into one bundle so that they can crackdown on both in one fell swoop. A variant of this was done by Marcos when Martial Law was implemented in 1972. During that time supposed Communists and Leftists along with Centrists and even Rightists all jailed irregardless of political or ideological beliefs. They need this kind of “Labeling” to ease their conscience when they persecute people.
cvj on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 1:36 pm
Ramrod, i agree that the tendency would be to label people who point to the evils of the Oligarchy as ‘communist’ which, of course is not true since the Philippine Oligarchy as the source of our problems is a view that is shared across the political spectrum. For example, from the right, FVR and Almonte have made the same observation.
DevilsAdvc8 on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 1:39 pm
hvrds’ posts rings true. makes sense. fiscal and monetary policy dictates the pace of corruption. it’s all within executive power.
a determined president CAN curb corruption. that or they can be assassinated by the powers that be.
ramrod on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 1:48 pm
anthony scalia,
There are only two choices, right or wrong, light and darkness, black or white – you can’t say none of the above and wash your hands like Pontius Pilate. Its a sin of commission or ommission. Bottomline, you have to be able to accept the responsibility of your choices.
cvj on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 1:49 pm
China got rid of their oligarchs in 1949. That paved the way for their economic takeoff in 1978. (The time lag is because of communist dogma but that’s another story.)
Mita on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 2:11 pm
Messiahs? Hey, if it helps…why not? That’s what I think. But making ourselves aware of it also helps us MAKE THE DECISION FOR OURSELVES and not just “go with the flow”
I said in an earlier comment, if the opposition wants this president out, they should CAUSE it to happen and not just by calling for resignation or invoking people power. They have failed time and time again using that line. But is it up to them or other groups? I don’t think so…
If you recall events prior to EDSA 1, there was Ninoy’s assassination, the snap elections, AND the computer programmers walking out on the computerized tabulations…and then the military withdrawing support and the Church calling for the faithful to protect…etc. Not just one group can claim the glory…
As for the Church, any church…I am adamant about my stand. No “sawsawan” because they represent an UNDUE INFLUENCE on the masses. Matters of the state and the church should be separate. Why? When politicians work to gain the endorsement of a church (Iglesia most especially) they will make promises that will serve the endorser – NOT the people. This is NO DIFFERENT from the promises made by politicians to business and other interest groups. This is called PANDERING.
Case in (a very glaring) point: family planning. Why did Lito Atienza deny his constituency family planning services when he was mayor of Manila? Why doesn’t this administration have a stronger family planning plan? Your answer is the Catholic Church…
I feel strongly about this at this time because our laundrywoman just gave birth to her 8th child last week. It was 7 kids when she started working for us just last year. Family planning is no longer available because the barangay health center does not have condoms or pills. Her second born is now under my care as a maid…the poor girl cannot read or write, like her mother. The daughter told me just yesterday her mother took “something” to abort baby # 7 but nothing happened. Are we going to make murderers of our women, OUR MOTHERS because the state is playing footsie with the Church?
another “wink-wink” situation you bet…and the only way people can fight this is to fight every little attempt, no matter if it helps our individual CAUSE, so it is not perpetuated and handed down to the next generation of Filipinos because it undermines our rights.
anthony scalia on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 2:31 pm
ramrod,
“There are only two choices, right or wrong, light and darkness, black or white – you can’t say none of the above and wash your hands like Pontius Pilate. Its a sin of commission or ommission. Bottomline, you have to be able to accept the responsibility of your choices”
can you get a handle of what you’re saying? what am i talking about in the first place? just that encounter with Mrs Joker! that it isnt what Lozada is telling it to be – that Mrs Joker is part of the big conspiracy to prevent Lozada from testifying, when it is not!
yun lang wala nang iba!
then you will make comments such as the one above.
ang layo! napakasablay! ano ba yan?!?
Jon Mariano on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 2:33 pm
Anthony, can you point at the transcripts of the senate hearing where Lozada said that Mrs. Fely Arroyo was part of the conspiracy? I thought Jun only said that he also talked to Joker’s wife without alluding to anything.
Kabayan on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 2:34 pm
“ramrod :
kabayan,
Its a pity they also cannibalize the so called “intelligence funds†– do you know that the ISAFP guys has to stop recording to download what they wire tapped or eavesdrop, every now and then (more now than then) because their equipment lacks the memory capacity? Its comical really.”
==========
To add, they also have a problem coping with the growing number of people discontented with present governance. Hard to monitor people if those disgruntled by corruption and actively reject this mafia-like handling of our government grows by the thousands every day. Those who participate in protest actions are just the tip of the iceberg.
Our society is more like a snow-laden mountain on the brink of an avalanche. A small overhang of snow bank (active protesters) hides the thousands of tons of snow ready to slip and crush through (large number of highly disgruntled populace.) The 77.45% of surveyed people who wants Gloria to resign shows the massive number of inactive disgruntled people in proportion to active protesters, a massive potential and if pushed to the breaking limit could crush anything in its path.
With regards to their increasingly defective equipment, even large financial resources have its limits. The sad thing about this is they use the very resource of the people, i.e. our taxes, to monitor the people who hanker for good, clean and honest governance.
anthony scalia on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 2:56 pm
Jon Mariano,
“Anthony, can you point at the transcripts of the senate hearing where Lozada said that Mrs. Fely Arroyo was part of the conspiracy? I thought Jun only said that he also talked to Joker’s wife without alluding to anything”
oo nga ano, wala. you’re correct. all that Lozada said is “kinausap ko si Mrs Joker”. no more, no less
pero that fact is lost on many bloggers here, and media in general.
bakit kaya sina cvj, ramrod, et al. keep on harping/insinuating that Mrs Joker is part of the big conspiracy?
ramrod on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 3:03 pm
anthony scalia,
Whoever said, Mrs. Joker was part of a conspiracy? An observation is that she had the opportunity to do the right thing, but she didn’t.
Something like, “so you found a bag of money in the street? if nobody looks for it, keep quiet na lang.”
mlq3 on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 3:16 pm
pls. return to the origin of the whole thing, which was joker’s plan of attack on lozada. he attempted to attack lozada on at least two fronts, after the attacks of miriam and enrile failed.
the first attack was along the lines identified by gen. razon: what abduction? lozada is here, ergo, there was no abduction and his fears he might be salvaged have no basis. joker tried to suggest that going to the courts on the basis of the writs of habeas corpus and amparo were an abuse and trivialized them. lozada sensibly pointed out that the best judge of that was himself, his family, and then the courts.
the second attack was to suggest lozada was acting in bad faith as far as meeting with opposition senators was concerned. lozada responded by saying he met with people from all sides -including arroyo’s wife. his further testimony clarified the circumstances surrounding that meeting but joker was stumped because either his wife hadn’t told him or he’d had a senior moment and forgotten. in either case, there seems to be a lawyer’s adage, don’t ask a question whose answer you don’t know. joker did.
the furthest a lawyer like katrina legarda, who is dismissive of the opposition, etc. can say, as she told me last sunday, was that what lozada did in that case was engage in omission. again, that has been clarified for the record, under oath. but it serves to demolish joker’s line of attack. unfortunately, you had to be watching at the time to see how vicious joker tried to be and why it has, in bencard’s favorite phrase, resulted in egg being all over his face.
tonio on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 3:18 pm
mlq3:
having come from a dominican primary school, i understand the significance of the UST proclamation. it would take a lot for this most conservative order to cast their lot politically.
what i want to see though sir, and so far that seems to be the case, is a persistent, consistent, effort. and evidence. and for this entire matter to go to court.
it is not necessary to tear down this country’s institutions to set forth change. all that is needed is to ensure the institutions work properly.
which is why i disagree with everyone making this Lozada a “heroic pot”, who spends all his time on air calling the kettles black, and threatening to yet again make fools of the people.
Jeg on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 3:30 pm
I understand the need to strengthen institutions. What I dont understand is why be so selective? Of course we need to strenghten the out-of-whack institutions of “justice”, but why leave out the institution of the public sphere where people’s opinions, no matter what their background, are equal? This is our institution right here. Why let the legal priesthood have all the fun? We are strengthening the institution of the public space which is our venue for direct democracy.
And in my opinion, a pot that calls a kettle black is a heroic one indeed. If you remember your Harry Potter, that Wizard headmaster guy awarded merit points for a kid because “it is difficult to stand up to your enemies, but it is more difficult to stand up to your friends” or words to that effect.
Willy on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 3:36 pm
Then we have to ensure the Ombudsman works properly this time around.
ramrod on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 3:36 pm
tonio,
I believe I know where you’re coming from. I’ve been a fanatic supporter of Gloria Arroyo in the past, most especially when the Banco Central figures look very good in my country reports (GDP growth, etc.). Like a lot of people I was party to aggressively working for the ejection of Erap, which was in hindsight, quoting my Singaporean counterparts as a loss to democracy as he was genuinely chosen by the majority.
I will really be disappointed if the people will degenerate into a mob and storm the palace and literally take Gloria by the hair to be stoned and mauled in the streets. If we achieve change but destroy our institutions in the process, its scorched earth policy – kung hindi natin mapakikinabangan dapat walang ibang makikinabang.
There is a better way, and one way of finding out is to allow the events to go its natural flow and in the meantime to also be intelligently vigilant. The truth has a way of showing itself, real motives can be seen by the quick, you have to be, as sometimes its as quick as the slip of the tongue.
balatucan on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 3:36 pm
how can institutions work properly if it is run by wrong people? The institutions are just like the machines. The operators are the officials.
We have morally bankrupt officials running the engines to suit their own interest. Logic tells us, we have to replace the people running the government if we want the insitutions of the government running properly again.
mlq3 on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 3:42 pm
tonio, i do think that what is being played out are two things: first, to what extent people are still prepared to give the president the benefit of the doubt, and second, to what extent they want change (i am operating on the assumption that on whichever side of the political divide they are, most people aren’t content with the status quo).
i think the public’s being consistent in that it prefers the determination of the president’s fitness to be done according to an institutional procedure. whether consciously or not, they recognize the difference between the court of public opinion and a court of law. they also recognize that the institutions are kind of stuck, unable to operate they way they should, both because of the shortcomings of the various opposition groups, and the unwillingness of the president to submit herself to any arena she can’t dominate according to the means she prefers.
i believe of course that the biggest obstacle to change is the president herself. which is not to say she couldn’t salvage the situation, and that doesn’t even mean submitting herself to an impeachment court. she can obviously dispense with allies, she can dispense with those who are casting her government in a bad odor. but she won’t and she can’t. she has already alienated too many.
there are many others still unsure whether the president’s removal would accomplish anything good in the long run; or who want firmer guarantees that this won’t be a flash in the pan. and so, people say go slow, get more proof, etc. this has a good effect in that it helps firm up in people’s minds what they really want -and the extent they want to go. and it gives more opportunities for the administration to keep shooting itself in the foot.
make no mistake, if the president were to go a long way further has to be reached if what the people want is real reform. if what people want is to simply get an obnoxious and crude administration out of the way, then removing the president will go a long way towards restoring the balances that have been lost. real reforms will mean a lot of inconvenience for people, and i think people sense that.
the question then becomes, weighing how much of an obstacle the president is, to systems not working; if she is less of an obstacle than people like me assume, she will stay. i personally think that if this attitude wins out, things can only get worse. but that’s my opinion and of course it requires more of an engagement with others to bring them around to that point of view.
until then, you work at your advocacy but trust that collectively, the public has a wisdom of its own which may frustrate those prepared to go further and those unprepared to go even this far.
ramrod on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 3:46 pm
balatucan,
Its like boxing, we know the opponent is dirty, he eye gouges, elbows, head butts, and rubs the lace undergloves on your face. But the referee never calls any fouls? Would you also fight dirty (give him a dose of his own medicine) or just win the fight anyway without resorting to dirty tricks? Of course, I know you’ll say “change the referee!” probably not knock the referee?
ramrod on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 3:52 pm
We as a people have made gains and mistakes in the past, but I tend to look at it as a continous effort to improve. These will all be a part of history, and our children and apos will need our stories. Can we tell them, thats me in the picture in the black shirt or over there handing out mineral water or jollibee lunch packs. Or maybe, my apo, I was at ninong’s house playing mahjong.
inodoro ni emilie on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 3:57 pm
shame, shame, shame.
‘kung ayaw mo, wag mo’. hello? an issue of grave national concern, you just shove off like that?
thus far what mrs arroyo has not dispelled is that she talked with jun, and it’s about the zte deal.
would it not be wise then that she be called to testify on the consistency of jun’s story? she’s not bound by the client-lawyer secrecy rule, is she? kinonsulta lang naman.
and why didn’t joker inhibit himself in the investigation. impossible to believe he had no knowledge of this meeting having transpired. he is trained to nose around.
so whose money is it? ma-lifestyle check nga.
Chat on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 4:01 pm
I’m just afraid that with Lozada’s contested comments and growing questions about his credibility, he will, like Trillanes, “self-destruct”, bringing down the cause, whether it be the expose of the truth or ultimately the unseating of Arroyo, in the process. I hope another more credible witness other than Neri would show up to clear up the whole issue and offer some solid, cross-examination-proof evidence.
ramrod on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 4:01 pm
inidoro,
Wait and see, the league of governors will say they passed the hat.
Jon Mariano on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 4:03 pm
Yeah, Gaite’s lifestyle needs some checking. Is 500,000 an amount that needs checking by the anti money laundering council? Which and whose bank account did it come from? I remember someonse said before that if you want to catch a crook, you need to follow the money trail…
inodoro ni emilie on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 4:07 pm
isn’t php500,000 the minimum threshold for anti-money laundering investigation to get going? ombudsman, act na, now na!
ramrod on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 4:27 pm
chat,
Trillanes did not self-destruct, he was deliberately silenced, isolated, and marginalized. Fortunately Lozada was sheltered by the La Salle brothers, if the palace got their hands on him – who knows? Good thing there are still institutions that have some semblance of independence fron the executive, the media and the senate.
Graft is generally very difficult to prove, especially since this administration goes to great lengths in conjuring legal illusions.
Mita on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 4:32 pm
Jeg,
see there’s the dilemna…it’s not enough to KNOW anymore because in the past we thought we KNEW. we have to play it out so we are SURE. this is the predicament of merely letting things resolve in the court of public opinion. democracy is not just the parliament of the streets, it’s equality for all, credible elections, the guaranty of freedoms, the rule of law prevailing, insitutions of government actually WORKING and providing balance in what would otherwise be chaos.
mlq3,
We will not have Charter Change until we think we have a leader who can be trusted…when or if that happens ..who knows. Constitutional Change is to the Philippines what Peace in the Middle East is to the US. So far, both ain’t happened…
It seems you understand now, it’s not just “Move on” for those who have been accused of sitting on the sidelines. When we make issues a “for or against us” thing, we lose in the end.
Maybe, just maybe, these latest wranglings will push the institutions to work better and provide that necessary balance.
Gosh, I can’t believe I’m still hopeful…
Mita on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 4:36 pm
ramrod,
forgive me for disagreeing with you. Trillanes had a golden opportunity to make his case when he won a seat in the Senate. even if he couldn’t attend sessions, he should have taken it as a challenge, turned it into his favor, as any man with enough imagination would have done. and what did he do? he staged a coup that not only miserably failed, but lacked imagination.
ramrod on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 4:37 pm
Mita,
If all of us cannot even afford to hope, then we’re all bankrupt indeed.
Madonna on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 4:38 pm
Many people who do not see something positive about Lozada’s coming out descredit him because he apparently gives off a “hero” effect to the public. In the political arena, this is of course very advantageous to the opposition because Lozada is a bullet that is apparently punching holes to every government’s defense shield. It’s simply payback time. All the GMA administration’s muzzling, evading, bribing, in the past are now coming to be examined and rendered verdict in the court of public opinion.
However, for the thinking crowd, for the so-called middle forces who have been long waiting in the wings to decide and who long have given GMA the benefit of the doubt, they see Lozada as definitely not a hero but he provides a simulcrum through his testimonies of how GMA’s fate should be decided and our future as a country. Ramrod is right he is just a person who was cornered and selfishly or unselfishly cast his lot against the current administration.
His relations with Neri is quite interesting because it represents the lot of bureaucrats and technocrats who are both operating in and out of the dysfunctional political system that have been long constrained in the way they discharge their duties and for Lozada, the typical successful story of a Pinoy middle class who do not see migration as an option but feels that he has a stake in improving the society and political system of the country.
Make no mistake, Lozada is very streetsmart and evidently thought long about his decision and did his groundwork pretty well by talking to everybody. These are dangerous times and our society has long been a paradise for crooks and boneheads and one cannot take on the system without getting destroyed or coopted, or just plainly pissed off so as to hie off and migrate. He is far from a hero for me, but he is a fighter because he did not give up. He wants to win the fight as much as much as I think a bureaucrat like Neri wants to win the fight and we should definitely think the same way.
ramrod on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 4:39 pm
Mita,
I will let you to your resources to find out what the real score with Trillnanes is, because to be honest with you I will always be partial to the military and their inner clamor for reforms.
cvj on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 4:46 pm
Regarding Trillanes (and Lim), the unfolding events, only serve to vindicate him more and more.
Jeg on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 4:52 pm
Mita: democracy is not just the parliament of the streets, it’s equality for all, credible elections, the guaranty of freedoms, the rule of law prevailing, insitutions of government actually WORKING and providing balance in what would otherwise be chaos.
There is nothing in what you said I could disagree with. My beef with this ’strengthen the institutions’ thing is that our sphere, the public sphere, is being dismissed as unimportant. We should strengthen our institution. This one, the public one. We do that by getting everybody involved and not dismissing anybody’s opinion. If all those things you mention fail, we’ll still have this one as a court of last resort.
nash on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 4:52 pm
@John Mariano,
As a government official, won’t Gaite’s SAL be a public document?
Mita on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 4:53 pm
Regarding Trllanes and Lim:
It takes more courage to walk the straight and narrow path…
Mita on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 5:01 pm
Jeg,
Of course it’s important and yes we have it as you yourself said, a LAST RESORT. If we continually take issues to our last resort instead of exploring other options, then it will be our ONLY RESORT.
I’ve said this here before, the opposition and other groups are even getting lazy and USING us as their only resort.
ramrod,
I prefer an impartial view myself. Enough said.
kimosabe27 on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 5:06 pm
“…you might be surprised (pleasantly or unpleasantly as the case may be) by (lozada’s) analysis not only of the state of our society, but what needs to be done. his ideas are rather radical. i think it’s safe to say that they were influenced by neri’s, too. – mlq3
I getting the same reading, manolo, sort of the revolt of the bureaucrats – the silent insiders who know it all… the rotten eggs inside out the stench of which has been suffocating them for eons (the probinsyanong intsiks, a good clue) – against the taipans, the oligarchs, the inner circles of power). We could add this to our lexicon, the “bureaucrat power.â€
Or that Neri is a closet Socdem who may want to instigate changes by integrating himself in the system so that reforms may be initiated from within. Nonetheless, his insider’s “roadmap” to the who’s who in uptake may well provide for political titillation. The Natdems have been right all along, there is indeed an oligarchy and the problem is systemic.
cvj on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 5:09 pm
The Public Sphere is not something you just use as a last resort since politicians when left alone tend to conspire against the people’s interests. We are paying the price of seven years of apathy which started when EDSA Tres scared off the middle and upper classes.
John Christian Canda on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 5:11 pm
Former President General Fidel Ramos recently admitted that 7 or 8 out of 10 Filipinos are anti-Gloria. I myself am opposed to the present President on account her support for the American imperialist imposition of the New World Order (a.k.a., the New Underworld Order, to use the words of Christopher Story), but I shall let her finish her term by 2010 because there seems to be no moral alternative. The best thing we can do is to wait patiently for 2010 and remain vigilant.
anthony scalia on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 5:14 pm
ramrod,
“Something like, “so you found a bag of money in the street? if nobody looks for it, keep quiet na lang.—
haay naku paulit ulti na lang tayo
Mrs Joker said “kung ayaw mo huwag mo” which is different from “huwag”.
The idea not to testify did not come from Mrs Joker!
cvj on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 5:17 pm
kimosabe27, the Natdems present us with the road not taken, a ‘what might have been’ that we are now seeing in China and Vietnam. If the Huks won in the 50’s, maybe our economy would already have taken off like China in the late 70’s or like Vietnam in the late 90’s. At the very least, there would have been no oligarchs like Razon, Tan, Aboitiz and Alcantara.
Jeg on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 5:21 pm
Of course it’s important and yes we have it as you yourself said, a LAST RESORT.
Our last resort if all else fails, Mita. Not our last resort full stop. If the ‘formal’ institutions fail us, we have our institution to try to get things right. But our public sphere should always be active. There is no off button on the public sphere. We have learned that we can’t leave things to our so-called representatives. Our institution is weak, that’s why they, the professional politicians, can take advantage of us. By dismissing this, our institution, we weaken it instead of strengthening it.
Jon Mariano on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 5:23 pm
Can’t find the SALN of Gaite, but you can check this website for the SALNs of others. It’s interesting! Romy Neri declared about 3million of net worth as of December of 2003.
www i-site dot ph / Databases / Executive / Cabinet / 2004-2010 / SALS / (just delete the spaces).
ramrod on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 5:24 pm
anthony scalia,
Then she was encouraging “ommission” then? Someone of her stature treating something as important as this nonchalantly? If its as simple as eating ice cream “kung ayaw mo, huwag mo” would be acceptable. Please listen to yourself.
I didn’t say Mrs. Joker told Lozada not to testify, did I? Its more of an observation of her character. Usually we expect so much from these people.
Jon Mariano on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 5:25 pm
In that databases folder, you can also find the SALNs of the president, vice pres, senators, congressman.
cvj on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 5:26 pm
Anthony (at 5:14pm), perhaps that kind of attitude would have been fine if Mrs. Arroyo were a lechon-manok businesswoman. The thing is, she (together with her husband) used to be a hero of sorts so more was expected of her.
John Christian Canda on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 5:26 pm
Cvj, I don’t mean to be rude but don’t allow yourself to be fooled by Red China and Communist Viet-Nam. Like the Soviet Union, they have completed the socialist phase and are now in the second phase: Leninist Capitalism.
ramrod on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 5:27 pm
I agree re the Public Sphere. Why we can’t rely on our representatives to look for our welfare is deplorable, someone always needs to check if these people are doing their jobs, and another to check if the ones checking if they are doing their jobs are doing their jobs, and so on and so forth.
The Ca t on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 5:37 pm
Strange manolo, but I reviewed the running account of the NBN investigation three times already, I can not find that part where Arroyo and Lozada had the confrontation about the wife.
I remember I saw it when someone remarked that Joker Arroyo is becoming senile. Second, I did not know that Joker has a wife.
Is there a possibility that it was removed? Will somebody point it to me please where it is.
I assure you that I have read it. naughty, naughty, my legally blind eyes are faiing me?
ramrod on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 5:39 pm
hrvds,
As always, I was gasping for breath after reading your kilometric post but it was worth it!
February 19th, 2008 at 3:51 am
ramrod on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 5:44 pm
The Cat,
It happened when D Joker said that Lozada was choosing the people he wants to talk to and Lozada said he talked to a lot of people, even your wife. And then D Joker got mad and said with glaring eyes “don’t mess around with my wife!” Of course, that didn’t come out right also as messing around connotes something else other than talking.
The Ca t on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 5:52 pm
My CSI and Law and Order fan in me pondered on these accounts of Lozada:
1. Sen. Legarda asks Lozada, during the 10 minutes that he was in the toilet at the airport, if he called his wife. Lozada says he did not, but was able to call his brother. “Hinugot ako ditto,†he says, recalling the conversation with his brother. “Sino?†his brother asked over the phone. “Hindi ko alam,â€.
2.He says he did not stay at the restroom for 10 minutes, “napakahaba naman po noon. Hanggang doon po sa urinal kasama ko sila.†Villar says he was told that Lozada went to the restroom alone.
I believe that the urinals do not have dividers between them.
If the escorts were with him, how was he able to talk to the brother to tell him that he was taken. Maybe they were speaking in their own dialect or language?
If the escorts were guarding him like hawks and their intention was to make him disappear in this planet, why would they allow him to communicate to someone who can triangulate where they are? Are these escorts dumb?
Oh, I see, he must have texted? What is the difference between a call and a text.
Do you say, you call when actually what you did is text?
The Ca t on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 5:56 pm
I know when it happened and I read that account. My question is why I can no longer find it.
I’ve been reading the Inquirer’s account of the NBN deal short of printing them like what I did during Erap’s trial.
Jeg on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 5:59 pm
This is from the blog of Jun Lozada’s nephew:
Ang isda talaga nahuhuli sa bibig.
link: voltz1129.multiply.com/journal/
The Ca t on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 6:05 pm
The 500,000 given has a receipt acknowledged by the brother.
If the giver wants to conceal the generous amount given, he would not ask for the receipt. Is he dumb to leave paper trail. I don’t think so. He’s a lawyer and he should know that.
It was surrendered many days after the whistle was blown. It was not even mentioned that the help came when he whined that he was using his credit card. If I remember it exactly, he said he was expecting the agency to foot his bill.
Did his brother fail to mention that he signed a receipt for the money and now that he remembered and the family talked about withholding the information decided to give back the amount?
Just thinking.
The Ca t on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 6:08 pm
he is a nephew, what do you expect him to write?
Madonna on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 6:12 pm
I’ve been reading the Inquirer’s account of the NBN deal short of printing them like what I did during Erap’s trial.
Cat,
Another alternative is to view the videos of Lozada’s Senate testimonies and other related videos — there is I think a more or less complete archive of them in GMANews TV channel, http://www.gmanews.tv
The Ca t on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 6:13 pm
Why was he approaching several people both from the opposition and the administration before his name was even mentioned in the scandal ?
COmmon observation is that these people are wondering what was his role in the NBN deal. (scratches head)
ramrod on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 6:22 pm
The Cat,
He is Neri’s alter ego, I believe he was taken as a consultant to the project since he has experience with telecoms having been employed with Alcatel before.
ramrod on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 6:44 pm
By his humble appearance, speech, and demeanor – Lozada may not look like much. He could be the janitor if no one ever knew him. Thats why self-declared legal luminaries or self-pronounced legal heavy weights or legends in their own minds like Mirriam Santiago and Enrile jumped to the fray expecting minced meat. Unfortunately, their superb and brilliant attempts at destroying his credibility (by descrediting him and showing volumes of documents for effect) and succeeding attacks at looking for inconsistencies or by clever use of wit, entrapping him to be inconsistent failed miserably.
By all intents and purposes Lozada is every lawyers’ nightmare, his is an indefensable position, one of obvious vulnerability and apparently no paper trail.
All the supposedly “brilliant” lawyers will avoid this type like the plague, but it will be something to watch how anyone will try to defend him – that would be brilliant, not many can do it but its not impossible.
Even in the Harapan incident, I never would have believed it if I didn’t see it, how vulnerability can win over intimidation.
john marzan on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 6:47 pm
Uhhh… how soon? 2010? When are you going to call for her resignation?
Austero’s line that we should also get rid of (or investigate) those who are opposed to Arroyo’s corruption is ridiculous. Who is he, a writer for the Pravda?
Why can’t he just call for Arroyo’s resignation without adding anymore qualifiers and pre-conditions?
http://www.politicaljunkie.blogspot.com/2008/02/hao-siao.html
ramrod on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 6:52 pm
“A major reason why this administration is still in power is because most think that the people who are itching to replace this administration are doing so mainly for personal political gain.”
How sure are you? If a snap election is called tomorrow, you and I can predict with total accuracy even to the last percentage that Gloria Arroyo will not win, granted of course that we get a decent Comelec.
alas ka dora on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 6:54 pm
Why was he approaching several people both from the opposition and the administration before his name was even mentioned in the scandal -Ca t
He was distraught, he knew that he will be called by the senate to testify.
If it is true as formoso claimed that Lozada was not part of the negtiation, why would the senate have an idea that Lozada may know something about the contract.
In Neri’s account he could not recall calling GMA evil. But he admitted meeting with senators lacson and madrigal although they may have agreed as gentlement that the meeting never took place. It was imprudent of Neri while still member of GMA’s cabinet to arrange meeting with these people along with lozada. Lozada’s account of that meeting may be hard to refute. I do believe sans hard evidence that Neri indeed made that presentation showing the web of corruption.
alas ka dora on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 7:01 pm
the natural instinct is, witnessing the spin in gov’t dealings, there was agreat chance that Neri could have mostlikely uttered that GMA is “evil” being at the center of it.
john marzan on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 7:06 pm
nice one, ramrod.
Mita on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 7:14 pm
all these hoopla about Mrs. Arroyo…you have to remember no one even KNEW who Lozada was at that time…
alas ka dora on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 7:15 pm
okey the brother of Lozada signed an acknowledgement receipt. But that receipt was not to trace where the money came from but so that Manny gaite may have something to show to the real benefactor that it reached the beneficiary. And why would manny gaite care so much about lozada’s financial status in hk. If lozada went there on hi caprice, even a friend perhaps would say “mag agwanta ka ginusto mo yan”. why should he care.
alas ka dora on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 7:28 pm
all these hoopla about Mrs. Arroyo…you have to remember no one even KNEW who Lozada was at that time… Mita
Yes, indeed, no one ever knew who lozada was but why did the government panick at the possibility that he will be summoned by the senate to testify? Who sent him to HK, Who financed his trip? why did gaite obliged when he requested for money? WHY? the abduction at the airport. Sabihin na natin that he was just escorted. who is lozada to be accorded with such above ordinary security. Look at mike defensor why would he go to la salle and give lozada pamalengke and asked him to make press conference for reason he only knew.
nash on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 7:41 pm
@Jon
SALNs are generally under-declared. (See Villar’s who valued his holdings based on prices when dinosaurs still walked the earth) So Gaite will be in deeper shit knowing that his government salary is officially less than 500k and that he may have further under-estimated his true wealth…
ramrod on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 7:43 pm
alas ka dora,
Pastilan, nagpabadlong man ni atong presidente! Daghang binuang gyud, daghan man pud ang mituo.
Such is life in the Philippines, people tend to belittle those who outshine others even in truth.
nash on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 7:44 pm
..and if Gaite claims this was not from public funds, then Lozada does not have “to “account” for how he spent the funds on his return.” Akala ko ba galing sa kanyang ‘generosity’, eh bakit pa niya pina-aaccounting…
rego on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 7:46 pm
“Why can’t he just call for Arroyo’s resignation without adding anymore qualifiers and pre-conditions?”
Like its the only option all filipinos have right now?. I for one would never ever want Gloria and her cabinet to resign. You want her out, her out impeach her.
john marzan on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 7:56 pm
good for you, rego. at least you speak the truth for yourself.
rego on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 7:57 pm
“Pastilan, nagpabadlong man ni atong presidente! Daghang binuang gyud, daghan man pud ang mituo”.
Its not only our president who is “pabadlong”. Some president of other countries are just as “pabadlong” or even worst. Bush for one lied about weapons of mass destructions, and squandered billions and billions of dollars in Iraq. There was some exposes about corrupptions. But peopel her patiently waited for th eend of terms. walang gulo at kadramahan, pamisa misa pa sa pa sa gyn o kung saan man.
I ve talke dto a lot of Venezuelan here. Majority of them did not liek Hugo Chavez.
Bakit ang Pinas napakagulo??????
Sagot ko lagi kasing isiningit ang extra constitution rights at ayaw sundin ang cosnititution at batas. Ayaw ng legality. At kung anu ano pang kadramahan
nash on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 8:03 pm
“I for one would never ever want Gloria and her cabinet to resign”
Such LOW, LOW standards.
mang_isko on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 8:16 pm
The Ca t :
“Ang isda talaga nahuhuli sa bibig.”
he is a nephew, what do you expect him to write?
how can we prove that this is really lozada’s nephew. baka isa naman itong gawa-gawa ni mr. lacson.
magaling dyan si lacson!
mang_isko on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 8:21 pm
john marzan :
“A major reason why this administration is still in power is because most think that the people who are itching to replace this administration are doing so mainly for personal political gain.â€
How sure are you? If a snap election is called tomorrow, you and I can predict with total accuracy even to the last percentage that Gloria Arroyo will not win, granted of course that we get a decent Comelec.
nice one, ramrod.
basis mo ‘yong poll ng HARAPAN ng ABS-CBN?
Alonsagabi on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 8:32 pm
Lozada is aleady living a Luxurious life being a government official and could live more luxurious.
Lozada having a good connection to the palace.
After the friendships and goodtimes.
One question:
What pushed him to turn his back against the government and risk his life?
The Ca t on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 8:35 pm
The people did not know not until he told them. How did the Senators knew about him?
He’s not an official consultant.
mang_isko on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 8:35 pm
“Alonsagabi :
Lozada is aleady living a Luxurious life being a government official and could live more luxurious.
Lozada having a good connection to the palace.
After the friendships and goodtimes.
One question:
What pushed him to turn his back against the government and risk his life?”
ANSWER: PATRIOTIC MONEY = P20,000,000.00
Alonsagabi on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 8:43 pm
ANSWER: PATRIOTIC MONEY = P20,000,000.00
So Lozada will be paid for telling the TRUTH.
Which will be more important, is it the source/amount of the patriotic money or for us to know the TRUTH.
Alonsagabi on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 8:44 pm
ANSWER: PATRIOTIC MONEY = P20,000,000.00
So Lozada will be paid for telling the TRUTH.
Which will be more important, is it the source/amount of the patriotic money or for us to know the TRUTH?
Karl Garcia on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 8:44 pm
According to Neri from GMANews.tv
“Romulo Neri, secretary of the Commission on Higher Education, is determined to stick it out with President Gloria Macapagal Arroyo because she can still carry out much-needed reforms in the government.
“All I can say is the reason I haven’t packed out of the Cabinet is because I feel there is hope within the executive (branch),” Neri said during Monday’s press conference in Malacañang.
While Neri admitted that he thought of resigning, this did not materialize because he did not believe that salvation could come from Congress, the Church, the civil society or the military adventurists.
“I cannot see the reforms coming from the Senate alone. I cannot see it coming from the House of Representatives alone. I cannot see it coming from the Black and White or the civil society alone. I cannot see it coming from the military, I mean we’d have a junta. I cannot see it coming from the Church because the Church has certain limited views on things also,” he said.
Neri said President Arroyo still held the key to reforms.
“To me the one who can really do it is the President herself. But for the President to do it effectively, she needs the cooperation of the rest of society,” he said. – GMANews.TV
So, the rest of the society must cooperate for the reforms to push through.
IMHO, she is the one who is not cooprating.
mang_kiko on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 8:46 pm
Iyong patriotic fund na 20 millions manga incidentals lang yon, sabi ko chicken feeds lang yan sa manga big boys and girls. Pinag-usapan dito Billions, kaya lahat na galamay nang Administration Gumagapang. Pera at Ginto na itong Pinag-usapan, malaking kantidad, kaya wala na santo-santo dito. Matira ang Matibay..
Abe N. Margallo on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 8:46 pm
“Evil� That’s a towering beast dwarfing the real Macoy. (Is Neri drawing a Freudian slip of a comparison?) All a fiend needs is a tall fork and elevated sandals, which means that she can be a nasty Marcosian without emergency powers. And she is looking beyond 2010 because an evil is supposed to be pervading and lasting, not transient. She has no friends or allies either. Watch out you guys, however cosmopolitan (hence, not probinsyano) you are. She is a jealous Tyrant.
mang_isko on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 8:47 pm
DO YOU THINK WHAT HAD LOZADA TOLD THE SENATE ARE ALL THE WHOLE TRUTH?
WAS HE NOT BEING SCRIPTED TO ACT AS WOULD THE SENATORS WANTED HIM TO?
UP n student on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 8:52 pm
Side-note: Parliamentary system that seems to work (at least in forcing change-of-administration). BUT… counting is normal, not Philippine-style.
New York Times February 20, 2008
Musharraf’s Party Accepts Defeat
By JANE PERLEZ and CARLOTTA GALL
LAHORE, Pakistan — Pakistan appeared to be heading for a transition to an elected civilian government Tuesday after President Pervez Musharraf told visiting United States senators that he accepted the resounding defeat of his party in elections, and would work with a new Parliament.
Many Pakistanis expressed relief that the overwhelming victory of the two major moderate opposition political parties in the Parliamentary elections on Monday marked a change in direction after eight years of military rule under Mr. Musharraf.
After fears that violence and vote rigging would mar the polling, international election observers described the victory for the opposition Pakistan Peoples Party and the Pakistan Muslim League-N as an accurate reflection of the voting.
Mr. Musharraf was “accepting of the reality of the election,†Senator John Kerry, Democrat of Massachusetts, said in Islamabad, the capital, after he and two other American senators met with Mr. Musharraf.
The nearly complete election tally Tuesday showed the Pakistan Peoples Party winning 80 of the 242 contested seats; the Pakistan Muslim League-N with 66; and the pro-Musharraf party trailing with 38.
Jojo on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 8:56 pm
NEDA Secretary Romula Neri’s refusal to appear before the Senate and his refusal to answer questions on the basis on executive privilege reminds me of Loki’s Wager – a form of logical fallacy that unreasonably insists that a concept that cannot be defined cannot be discussed.
In Norse mythology, the trickster god Loki once made a bet with some dwarves. It was agreed that the price, should Loki lose the wager, would be his head. Loki lost the bet, and in due time the dwarves came to collect the head which had become rightfully theirs. Loki had no problem with giving up his head, but he insisted they had absolutely no right to take any part of his neck. Everyone concerned discussed the matter; and, one could suppose, they are discussing the matter still. Certain parts were obviously head, and certain parts were obviously neck, but neither side could agree exactly where the one ended and the other began. As a result, Loki keeps his head indefinitely.
Until when will Neri keep his head?
Jojo on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 8:56 pm
my bad, make that Romulo.
mang_isko on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 8:59 pm
ANOTHER POINT CORY ATTRIBUTED TO LOZADA THE SLOGAN “HINDI KA NAG-IISA”, NAKAKA-TURN-OFF!
MAYBE THE BODY OF NINOY WOULD HAVE MOVED! WHAT A WRONG COMMENDATION.
SHE COULD HAVE USED DIFFERENT MONICKER!…MAYBE, “WAG KANG MANG-IISA!”
hehehehe
Alonsagabi on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 8:59 pm
mang_isko :
DO YOU THINK WHAT HAD LOZADA TOLD THE SENATE ARE ALL THE WHOLE TRUTH?
WAS HE NOT BEING SCRIPTED TO ACT AS WOULD THE SENATORS WANTED HIM TO?
———————
Then Lozada is better than any actor.
(I’m a Theater Director; for the record. An act or reality is obvious)
——
Lozada actually ADMITTED that he could commit mistakes.
What the people wanted to know is THE FACT and not all of its details.
He is under probe by senators, brilliant senators and per Lozada “ang galing ko namang mag imbento”.
If everything is scripted.
Whew! A perfect script per se.
Alonsagabi on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 9:05 pm
Hindi nga naman talaga nag-iisa si Lozada.
Obviuosly he is supported not just in the Senate or on the streets also here in the blogsphere.
mang_isko on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 9:07 pm
at kasama na kayo sa inisahan!
hehehehehe
The Equalizer on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 9:13 pm
We can’t do much but we can show we care for and support Jun Lozada by wearing a green ribbon and placing green ribbons in our car antennas.
Green is the color of HOPE.
Green is for the environment.Jun Lozada cared for the environment in his job in Philippine Forest.
Green is also the color of the sanctuary of the Lozada family.
Note:I am not a La Sallian.
Backgrounder:
The green ribbon has been used as a symbol for many campaigns, including environmental justice, caring through prayer,and HOPE.
Environmental initiatives, such as Environment Week in the UK and in Canada, often use green ribbons to represent support for sustainable development and environmental initiatives.
In the US in 1998, Margaret Bruce sought a way to support farm families and came up with the idea of a green ribbon and a card that read “We care through prayer.” Around the same time, the National Catholic Rural Life Conference (NCRLC) began receiving emergency calls from farm families in stress and saw that the situation was getting worse across the country. In November 1998, NCRLC launched the Green Ribbon Campaign at their 75th anniversary meeting. They developed and began to disseminate rural crisis packets to help parishes deal with the growing rural crisis.
When Margaret Bruce began wearing a green ribbon for farm families, she said at the time: “I can’t do much, but I can wear a green ribbon to let families know that I care through prayer.” Her “can’t do much” example has turned into an international campaign that brings support and hope to thousands. Her life is an example of how ordinary people doing ordinary things have extraordinary results. Margaret was the Pastoral Associate at St. John the Evangelist Catholic Church in Grafton, North Dakota. She died of an aneurysm in Grand Forks, ND, on Jan. 27, 2001.
Following the July 2005 London bombings, British police in Nottinghamshire distributed green ribbons as part of a Good Faith campaign .
The green ribbon is used to show support for finding missing persons particularly children in Canada.
Alonsagabi on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 9:17 pm
Let’s say the two parties are Parehong nang-iisa.
“The NBN deal is overpriced”
yun lang yun!
—————————–
let’s compare 20M to Billions.
sabihin na natin na parehong galing sa bayan.
Underneath the issue, the Filipino’s could only be risking 20 million (if that is also a corrupted money) rather than risked another billions of pesos, which we have been losing.
Abe N. Margallo on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 9:26 pm
Jojo,
Loki’s Wager or a Devil’s Pact? Maybe the former Speaker of the House can give us some hints.
Abe N. Margallo on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 9:40 pm
Neri said President Arroyo still held the key to reforms.
Wow! Reforms in two years? Only one with great magic powers can do that, do you agree? More Freudian slip.
UP n student on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 9:47 pm
Jojo and Abe:
The Loki wager is intended to show that dwarves-in-mind are dwarves in practice.
The action with Loki should be obvious. Take away part of Loki’s head, from the nose upwards.
That should teach Loki a permanent lesson.
Abe N. Margallo on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 9:52 pm
UP n,
Tell us very honestly, whose side are you on?
UP n student on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 10:05 pm
Abe : for Hillary Clinton!!!
Honestly!
The Ca t on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 10:05 pm
He said that he fears for his life. Or the money is not enough?
Kabayan on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 10:16 pm
A more calamitous life for Gloria and her corrupt allies unless they relent, or better yet, Resign.
Alonsagabi on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 10:22 pm
What pushed him to turn his back against the government and risk his life?
—
The Ca t : He said that he fears for his life. Or the money is not enough?
Ca t,
Will you take a Thousand Peso risking your life of or would you prefer taking a hundred peso keeping your life safe and away from contoversies?
UP n student on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 10:25 pm
Ca t: I’ll fear
for my life, too, if I don’t have enough in my retirement fund while I hide from the vengeful! 
Zel on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 10:26 pm
The nature of my work extends to me pockets of time in between projects all through out the year. During these brief hiatus, I read up on previously bought books that gather dust by my bedside table then comfortably hibernate in the confines of my room. Because these periods are short and far in between, they’ve become sacred to me. I recharge myself heavily during these days and imagine reaching the goals I have set for myself for the next project. This is basically my life. I am content.
My last project ended Jan 30. A few meetings were in order to wrap up the event so I was looking forward to Feb 8 to start my long awaited rest period. But on Feb 5, flipping through the channels of the television, I chanced upon teleradyo, a man was kidnapped allegedly from the NAIA. Hmmmm…. interesting I thought to myself.
I never left that story since…
Now, almost 2 weeks later I do not only watch the senate hearings… I cry over them. I realized I have to pass on rest this time around.
Why? Empathy for Jun Lozada, sure. Anger for government, certainly. Outrage over grandstanding politicians, you bet. Pity for the nation I love dearly, a resounding yes!
But as I turn off the television at night and listen to my mind speak, I know I cry for me. The vision of Jun Lozada struck a deep chord in me. When he said “Ang Pilipino ay isang bansa”, I couldn’t even catch my breath. I cried because it was the first time I heard someone say out loud what I have felt all this time but had no courage to say. I always knew things have to change but I also doubted they ever will. To vent out frustrations I even wrote a short reaction to MLQ3’s blog entry saying that the opposition is 99.99% identical to the administration, leaving the Filipino (particularly me) with no other option than inaction. I promised never to attend political gimmicks more popularly termed as protests.
Jun Lozada unwittingly responded to my confusion again. He, without knowing it, described me. It blew my mind. He said I was insulting. My vocabulary is characterized by the words, “Kahit ano pang gawin natin, kahit sino pang ilagay mo dyan, pareho pareho lang ang mga yan! Ganun pa rin ang kalalagyan natin, mangnanakaw din lang ang papalit dyan!†He further explained in writing that, “Filipinos who say these words are insulting our entire race, they are condemning all of us as incapable of patriotism and love for one another. It seems that they are the majority now, they may have the numbers, but they are wrong. YES!!! THEY ARE WRONG!
The last time I attended a rally was when I was a freshman in UP Diliman. I thought it was maturity that kept me off the streets, now I realize it was insolence.
No denying it is time. On February 17, 2008 after 16 long years of hibernation, I am more than honored to say I am back!
JMCastro on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 10:33 pm
I watched snippets of the Malacanang press conference regarding the NBN deal (I couldn’t complete it, since I was too busy with work).
From the little that I heard, the GMA administration continues to defend the NBN deal.
According to Neri, the NBN deal went through a NEDA-ICC approval process. From what I read in NEDA’s website (http://www.neda.gov.ph), the NEDA-ICC process involves virtually all departments of the President’s cabinet, with NEDA acting as the chair in the two (2) committees convened — the cabinet committee, and the technical committee.
Key questions: Are there minutes of the meetings for these committees? Do they have recordings of their committee deliberations? Where are the reports of these committees?
I think that the broader aspects of the truth behind the NBN deal has been adequately covered by the Senate testimonies of JDV3, Neri and Lozada. In the light of the controversies surrounding the NBN deal, I think that nothing less than the full history of the NBN deal must be detailed by the GMA administration to prove their contention that the NBN deal is above board.
The Ca t on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 10:34 pm
Oh I am sorry. It should have been written. The price is not right. Do I hear someone screaming. What half a million only? (grin, grin,grin)
The Ca t on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 10:36 pm
As someone has said, it is close to that and it will be the will of God. What about if it does not happen. God did not will it happen? (ngiting pusa). meow meow.
The Ca t on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 10:42 pm
I am reminded of a six year old daughter of my friend. She asked her mom to buy her a toy or else she won’t be a good girl.
Blackmailing her mom.
Lozada mentioned to Atienza that he did not want to appear in the Senate because he may not be able to lie.
Pareho lang ang dating sa akin.
Abe N. Margallo on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 10:43 pm
Up n,
I’d been actually for Hilary too before was I against her. But like GMA, in some ways, Hilary is a conservative in a liberal cloak. In our lingo, she is a trapo. Obama is selling hope. For the sinking ship of good ol’ USA hope is enough for now.
Now, if Sonny Boy Trillanes reads and imbibes half of cvj’s books in his (cvj’s) library, he could be our Obama someday. I’m hoping for Sonny to change his mind of dreaming, quite naively, to make meaningful reforms without “re-inventing the wheel.†I’m hoping too, he’ll covert, like Ninoy or Rizal, with plenty of pensive times while in seclusion.
I agree with Romrad that in the Philippines, the few remaining patriotic Filipinos are lurking in the barracks. One of the more charismatic of them could be a Barack someday (no pun intended). Filipinos desperately needs one. But don’t get me wrong, I’m not that partial with the men in uniform. I’m also enthralled by the passion of an mlq3.
And Jun Lozada, I still don’t know him that well …but he could by his “heroism” make the Zels out there gel and back (pun intended this time).
Zel on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 10:57 pm
Does anybody here intend to work in government?
anthony scalia on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 11:01 pm
cvj,
“perhaps that kind of attitude would have been fine if Mrs. Arroyo were a lechon-manok businesswoman. The thing is, she (together with her husband) used to be a hero of sorts so more was expected of her”
a lechon manok businessperson sure beats working as an IT professional in Singapore anytime!
more was expected of her? oh really? you’re assuming too much!
in case you haven’t noticed, you’re looking for facts to confirm your biases.
you’re basing your conclusion from an account of Solita Monsod? oh yes, if it would confirm your biases.
Alonsagabi on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 11:04 pm
With how Lozada shows onstage it is manifesting that he is a good actor, being a good actor requires of 1.) Intelligence, to interpret the script and play the way his director ask him to do.
2.)Charisma, to be able to catch viewers.
On how Lozada is portraying his current role he posseses high level of intelligence and since he was able to agitate people and catch their sympathy he has a good charisma.
His role is as a brave patriot.
(Talent fee: Patriotic fund)
But Lozada here is not an actor, he has no script and no director what he only has is the TRUTH, the COURAGE and his CONSCIENCE.
Kabayan on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 11:04 pm
“Zel said:
Does anybody here intend to work in government?”
==========
Not while the government carries on the existing culture of deceit, lies, corruption, cover-ups and evil.
cvj on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 11:08 pm
No arguments with you on that. As i said before, i only have the highest respect for the lechon-manok entrepreneur(s) and their product. Maybe you can ask them to invest in Singapore. Kahit isang branch lang. You can tell them that per capita GDP over here is growing, and as far as i can tell, with no need for statistical hocus-pocus.
Zel on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 11:12 pm
Ca t:
You said Lozada reminds you of a 6 yr old girl who blackmails her mom by threatening to be bad unless she is bought a certain toy. I guess we can say that it looks the same but the only difference is that unlike the mom, Atienza buys Lozada the toys for him to shut up and give Atienza the time to splurge daddy’s hard earned money in the mall.
Madonna on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 11:15 pm
Zel,
Welcome back!!!!
What pushed him to turn his back against the government and risk his life?
Alonsagabi,
He did it for himself of course! Or is not that obvious? That’s why I don’t see him as a hero at all. He is just like the average Filipino who wants to be successful in his career and in his personal life, albeit a very intelligent one and who is a fighter. He said in an interview that leaving the country was never in his mind because he sees his dreams being fulfilled in the Philippines. In this context of Lozada’s personal background, shouldn’t it be the case that doing it for yourself, means you are on your way to doing for your fellow countrymen. Telling the truth is an act of self-preservation in the long run, you know the kind that involves self-respect which says that I did not run away from a challenge or let shallow justifications win the day.
cvj on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 11:16 pm
Zel, among the bloggers, the only one i know who has indicated an intent to work in government is Rom Sedona (over at ’smoke’). Sometime back, another blogger Sparks (of ‘Caffeinesparks’) volunteered to help out Manolo if he becomes President.
Zel on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 11:17 pm
Kabayan said:
“Not while the government carries on the existing culture of deceit, lies, corruption, cover-ups and evil.”
—————
Kabayan,
If we wait for them to leave (which I doubt they will)then how do we begin to help clean it up by standing in the sidelines? I am asking because I really want some input. I am seriously considering leaving my present job to work fulltime in a public school but the sane part of me tells me otherwise!
Mita on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 11:25 pm
Zel.
He reminds me of a kid sometimes too…like when he maliciously threw the “I talked to your wife too” to Joker Arroyo. The implication was made then that he was given advice not to appear before the senate. What he didn’t say at first was, the advice was given in a manner of affirming what he was asked about what he wanted to do – not appear in the Senate – something we’ve heard over and over again. But then when a letter to the contrary was received and read out loud in the hearings, he is asked if that was how it went…and well, he says yes!
He may have given truthful testimony in the Senate, true. BUT when he makes little slips like these, the rest of his testimony will come into question as well. That was a faux pas that shouldn’t have taken place except for Jun Lozada’s desire to spite the Joker. I’m not taking sides, just stating a fact…
cvj, make sure the manok is halal and you’ve got a gold mine…seriously.
Zel on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 11:30 pm
Much of the discussion has evolved around whether or not Jun Lozada is the real deal or not. Blogs and commentaries both in print and broadcast media has revolved around whether he is saying the truth or not.
I validate Mr. Lozada’s actions by a different criteria. I try to look for things that I find to be true based on my experiences because this is the only aspect of society I really have a control to change. I too have my own corrupt little ways. So I know that this is true to me. I too have done things I can’t be proud of for the sake of “pakikisama”. And if I, so choose, can also change. DESISYON lang yan!
The heroism of Mr. Lozada to me is not because he is telling the truth. He is my hero because in saying his truth helped me find my own.
Mita on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 11:34 pm
Zel,
If you have a good job, don’t leave it to join government. You’ll only be frustrated. If you want to help, send a poor child to school so he can get an education. If you can afford more, consider sending a kid to a good college or university his parents couldn’t otherwise afford. Educating the next generation is most important.
cvj on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 11:34 pm
mita, seriously i believe lechon manok has good potential here.
vic on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 11:35 pm
Lozada is one smart alecs among the protagonists here. He knows where he stood and play his part quite well so far. He knew pretty well, that testifying under oath the only way that he can be prosecuted in other proceedings is for Perjury and that has to be proven beyond any doubts..
And for all the Threatened Civil Cases, they can only get what he is worth, and just like most Smart Aleces there, if he is worth more that is already hidden somewhere else. Do these alleged “i don’t steal any govt. funds” Declare their dirty laundry? Nope, most of them millionaires are poorer (in papers) than your average honest private enterprise managers. check their income tax returns..
Kabayan on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 11:36 pm
Zel, your intentions are admirable but in the present set-up you’ll be eaten up by the evil system. You would be forced to; join them in their corrupt ways, or if you insist on doing good you’ll be persecuted or be removed; or if you would blow the whistle on corrupt activities, the Department of Injustice will be upon you like a jackal on a hare and their goons may make you “disappear” or threaten you.
If you’d like to really help in governance, first there must be major changes within it. I would suggest a third party or private advocacy instead. If your talents are for hands on service, joining in a reputable Non-government service oriented organization (NGOs) would do you good.
There are still major structural and moral changes within this government before it will be considered relatively acceptable to enter without being forced to compromise your principle or put your life in danger.
For brief details on the problems of entering public office, check out my blogsite at:
http://bayanikabayan.blogspot.com/
dated Feb. 11 under the heading “The New People Power, The Next Evolution” with sub-heading “The Watchdog (Part 1)”
Kabayan on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 11:39 pm
Oops my suggestion to you Zel got moderated due to suggested link, so to repeat…
Zel, your intentions are admirable but in the present set-up you’ll be eaten up by the evil system. You would be forced to; join them in their corrupt ways, or if you insist on doing good you’ll be persecuted or be removed; or if you would blow the whistle on corrupt activities, the Department of Injustice will be upon you like a jackal on a hare and their goons may make you “disappear†or threaten you.
If you’d like to really help in governance, first there must be major changes within it. I would suggest a third party or private advocacy instead. If your talents are for hands on service, joining in a reputable Non-government service oriented organization (NGOs) would do you good.
There are still major structural and moral changes within this government before it will be considered relatively acceptable to enter without being forced to compromise your principle or put your life in danger.
For brief details on the problems of entering public office, check out my blogsite (hyperlinked on my name here) dated Feb. 11 under the heading “The New People Power, The Next Evolution†with sub-heading “The Watchdog (Part 1)â€
cvj on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 11:48 pm
Zel, i agree with Mita and Kabayan. Unless you’re independently wealthy, do not have financial obligations and teaching gives you fire in your belly, i would advise against it. My Dad and Mom worked for the government. Their retirement benefits are not able to meet their expenses so i have to make up for some of the balance. In my Dad’s lucid moments, he curses Winston Garcia (of the GSIS).
vic on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 11:49 pm
But Mita, helping sending a child or two or for that matter a lot won’t matter much, because that won’t give opportunity to every child. it should be a National initiative to give every child that opportunity, in the end that would not make a dent on the problem and the Equality, but instead a draw of luck for some children. Private individual scholarship could never, never be as successful as the government program available to all chilren and smack on Selectivity. what about the other children who is not so lucky to have any sponsor??
Alonsagabi on Tue, 19th Feb 2008 11:53 pm
Madonna,
Madonna,
I dont find Lozada pertaining his personal dream to being thought of what you think of him right now, to be probed by the senators, to risk his and his family’s life then after which hide for what he had done…
Hey, what we are trying to figure out is not if Lozada a hero or not but if he is really teling the truth.
UP n student on Wed, 20th Feb 2008 12:00 am
Zel: On going into teaching. Why not choose a more difficult path (and you have to do this carefully, because it is difficult). The objective is to open your very own school. This — entrepreneurship — is not easy. You can lose any and all life savings you have if you are not complete in your analysis and methodical in your execution.
But when successful, you-owner should then earn what is rightful — a fair return on your creativity and your efforts — while you hire others to work for you.
justice league on Wed, 20th Feb 2008 12:03 am
Ca T,
If it is indeed true that Lozada could have taken a chunk of 200 million Pesos instead; I think you’d be right about that half a million.
Madonna on Wed, 20th Feb 2008 12:18 am
Alonsagabi,
He is telling the truth. Period. As I see it, Lozada is no fool and I think he examined and weighed his options very critically (i.e. will he and his family be safe and come out alive and prosper given the resources or help that they could muster), and together with his personal circustances, values and dreams, thus made a decision to tell the truth.
I agree with mlq3’s analysis that the fundamental motivation for Lozada in telling the truth is patriotism. If one feels that one has a stake in this country, meaning you want your dreams to be fulfilled here, you would fight to become instrumental in making change and making things better, just as Lozada did when he testified. Making things better ultimately benefits oneself (that’s why I said he did it for himself). Reason and motivation are two different things but they reinforce one another.
Alonsagabi on Wed, 20th Feb 2008 12:30 am
Thanks madonna.
Nyways i’m planning to go back where I was. Im longing to serve for my country again. I prefer serving my country rather than sitting here for the Americans.
Thanks to Lozada my Patriotic heart is beating again!
Bencard on Wed, 20th Feb 2008 12:32 am
mlq3, if, as you said ust has been maintaining a hands-off policy vis a vis gma (which means they were neither for nor against her) why should there be a need for them to “cut and cut cleanly”? if they were not with her, there’s no love lost, right? at any rate, the ad you were making a big deal of was just the graduation picture of lozada without any statement of support. i think you are seeing too much in it. if anything, it just re-affirms the neutrality of ust, which as a thomasian myself, i think is the correct stance of a religious institution – no prejudgment until all issues are resolved constitutionally. in that sense, i’m very proud of my alma mater, which counts jose rizal, a. mabini, your grandfather, pres. mlq, pres. osmena, first sc chief justice cayetano arellano, pres, d. macapagal, cj r. concepcion, cj a. narvasa, among other notable figures in our history as a nation.
the separation of church and state is explicitly mandated by our constitution. the principle has a long history in democratic thought borne out of the excesses and abuses of organized religion in meddling in man’s temporal affairs.
as mita pointed out above, religious influence in political affairs is almost insuperable to the masses who fear eternal damnation. true, some groups or cults actively seek political clout by using the right to vote in elections in such a way as to be pandered to by unscrupulous power-seekers. but i would like to think that my religion is above all that.
btw, regarding my “favorite” phrase egg on the face, i really don’t want to use it in connection with the last very sparsely attended protest rally (9,000 out of 9 million filipinos) but you practically persuaded me. trying to maintain a straight face, some people here and about are calling it “just a beginning”. i thought they had begun even before gma has warmed her seat in malacanang, and never stopped since then but kept on getting “eggs on the faces” each time.
mang_kiko on Wed, 20th Feb 2008 12:57 am
kung sa bagay hindi naman masama kong itlog lang ang tatama sa manga mukha namin bawat palpak yung protesta, pag balang araw makajackpot din kami, kami naman ang tatapon nang itlog, ganti, ganti lang yon, di ba sabi ni Erap ganyan lang, minsan sa iba, minsan sa ibaba pa rin, mali ata. pero hindi lang lahat na oras kay GMA, isang wrong timing lang baka si Lozada pa maging Presidente, anong alam natin. Naging President nga si Erap, si Lozada pa?
anthony scalia on Wed, 20th Feb 2008 1:01 am
cvj,
“No arguments with you on that. As i said before, i only have the highest respect for the lechon-manok entrepreneur(s) and their product. Maybe you can ask them to invest in Singapore. Kahit isang branch lang. You can tell them that per capita GDP over here is growing, and as far as i can tell, with no need for statistical hocus-pocus”
okay ill ask them. pero the GDP growth rate might be faster here. meron bang FIES dyan? saka they might like it better here. suppressed lahat ng tao dyan, kaya nga dinadaan na lang sa pagbo-blog.
baka mahal mag-import ng manok dyan. eh puro may bird flu pa ang mga manok dyan, masisira lang ang pangalan nila dyan, kaya dito na lang sila.
napaka-boring dyan. kikitain din naman nila dito ang kikitain nila dyan, they won’t bother going there. yung per capita GDP ng Singapore eh kaya nilang kitain in one month dito. Di pa sila suppressed! They even had ringside seats to the Manila Pen circus! Now they are enjoying the Lozada circus!
over-all, they might say thanks but no thanks
mlq3 on Wed, 20th Feb 2008 1:09 am
bencard, not standoffish, ust has been warm to the president in the past, i encountered her there last during a ceremony at the faculty of civil law where they unveiled a mural featuring famous alumni. this was last year, i think.
but gosh, i don’t know what ad you saw but i don’t see how you could have read it the way you did. take a second look. and the context surrounding the placement of that ad.
cvj on Wed, 20th Feb 2008 1:35 am
Anthony, you’re right mas interesting diyan sa Pilipinas and i’d also rather be there than here, but i hope your businessman-friends would consider. Here’s Singapore’s equivalent of FIES for their perusal:
http://www.straitstimes.com/Free/Story/STIStory_206214.html
If you notice, Singapore’s average family income moves in the same direction as GDP, unlike the strange behavior of our statistics in the Philippines, pataas daw ang GDP pero pababa naman ang monthly income. Kaduda-duda talaga.
In any case, mabuti naman at mukhang malakas pa din ang kita ng lechon-manok sector diyan. That means hindi pala totoo ang pinagsasabi ni Gloria Arroyo tungkol sa ‘political noise’.
DevilsAdvc8 on Wed, 20th Feb 2008 1:36 am
well, there you have it. we can’t find decent people in govt bec no decent person is willing to work for it.
tapunan ng basura ang gobyerno. parang spanish times rin. ang pinadala mamuno rito un mga undesirables ng spain.
Bencard on Wed, 20th Feb 2008 1:55 am
why is lozada, a self-proclaimed “poor” chinese from bicol and head of a minor, run-of -the-mill government corporation, able to afford sending 3 or 4 kids to la salle, obtaining and maintaining membership at wack wack, regularly dining at expensive restaurants, rubbing elbows with top business honchos and government officials? just wondering.
to those who object to my suggestion to have lozada take a lie detector test (as mike defensor offered a few months ago in connection with some other matter), while courts are reluctant to grant admissibility to such tests to prove guilt, a majority of u.s. courts allow its admission by stipulation of the parties, especially now that the technology and procedures for its taking are much improved.
in any event since lozada constantly brags about telling the “truth”, is it too much to expect that he would take such a test voluntarily if only to justify the “heroic” acclamation accorded him by the oust-gloria cabal? let it not be ignored that lozada is publicly implicating a lot of people. a lie detector test will help clear the air, especially in the area of public perception which the “august” senate is apparently trying hard to mold against gma. in this regard, the issue of admissibility of lie detector test as evidence is irrelevant since the senate (and the office of the ombudsman for that matter)is not a court of law. but while the senate inquiry is limited to legislative and oversight purposes, the destructive power of its proceedings in the lives of men/women whose integrity and reputation are put under a cloud of suspicion as a result, requires a proper sense of responsibility grounded on fairness.
if lozada is telling the truth as he claims, and as many in this blog believes, he should have no qualms about submitting to a lie detector test which should be as transparent as possible (on national t.v.).
watchful eye on Wed, 20th Feb 2008 2:38 am
Alright, let’s follow the leader as in leading by example.
Ate Glue and then Big Mike take the test first (on national t.v.) On Ate questions will be focused on “Garci tapes” and on Big Mike on “back off” incident. Deal, Benjie?
Zel on Wed, 20th Feb 2008 2:40 am
“if lozada is telling the truth as he claims, and as many in this blog believes, he should have no qualms about submitting to a lie detector test which should be as transparent as possible (on national t.v.)”
Bencard,
I think if Lozada is asked to take the lie detector test, Abalos, FG, PGMA et al should take it with him, isama na rin si Donald Dee para patas!
Alonsagabi on Wed, 20th Feb 2008 2:43 am
Lie detector test.
They should have done probing witnesses and those who are accused eversince using that LDT.
Bert on Wed, 20th Feb 2008 2:44 am
“Until when will Neri keep his head?–Jojo, 8:56 pm
Jojo, when the heat is off, the head will roll. Neck or throat with it won’t matter in today’s dwarves.
Zel on Wed, 20th Feb 2008 2:44 am
DevilsAdvc6 said:
“well, there you have it. we can’t find decent people in govt bec no decent person is willing to work for it.”
——————
My exact sentiments!
Bert on Wed, 20th Feb 2008 2:58 am
“well, there you have it. we can’t find decent people in govt bec no decent person is willing to work for it.
tapunan ng basura ang gobyerno. parang spanish times rin. ang pinadala mamuno rito un mga undesirables ng spain.–DevilsAd
hwag matahin ang basura, devil, australia was the dustbin of europe long ago but the undesirables were able to recycle themselves, and look at said country now. may pag-asa pa tayo!
grd on Wed, 20th Feb 2008 3:01 am
wow, what a spin. ang galing-galing naman talaga ng isip mo. puno ng erotismo ang imahinasyon mo. bunga ata ng promil yan. gusto mo pang ilihis ang sisi at ayaw mong aminin na ang kaguluhan ngayon ay bunga ng edsa dos na kasama ka(?) at hindi ng tres.
so, idol mo na ba ngayon si JDV? he is calling for a moral revolution. his wife used to be the side kick of Gloria but now, hand in hand w/ Cory. you think the de Venecias have conscience? yet, you’re embracing them now. talaga naman… mahina talaga memorya ng pinoy.
hawaiianguy on Wed, 20th Feb 2008 3:11 am
Zel, (re-your pst Feb 19, 10:26pm)
You just said what many Filipinos think about the Lozada expose.
Funny, all these talks against Lozada put him on the spot though it was he who is the problem. The publicity that he earned is weighed down and vilified by attacking his persona rather than the rotten system he tried to expose and extricate himself from.
Expect more attempts to portray him as evil, esp. from those he has accused, sustained by govt efforts. Lozada rightly described the fight as “one vs. the mob” during his confrontation with his enemies on TV.
grd on Wed, 20th Feb 2008 3:14 am
Bencard, I don’t’ think Lozada is poor. In one of his outbursts in front of media, that was when his former office was raided by the NBI and his personal documents was alledgedly handed over by one of his assistants, in a pit of rage where he mentioned “Hudas…â€, he also mentioned something to the tune of “mga walang utang na loob†(referring to his staffs). I was paying for their salaries the whole year because the govt has no moneyâ€.
Alonsagabi on Wed, 20th Feb 2008 3:17 am
Do you notice?
Currently the talk is about the character that Lozada is representing. Most arguments now is about his personality, his background, and even his cartoonic face. A fundamental point maybe, to establish his credibility.
Bencard on Wed, 20th Feb 2008 3:20 am
zel, in our system of justice, the accuser usually proves the truth of what he says (it’s not enough to say that he’s telling the truth). the accused is not required to prove his/her innocence. you take note of that also, watchful eye (don’t call me benjie or i’ll call you cross-eyed).
Bencard on Wed, 20th Feb 2008 3:29 am
alonsagabi, a lie detector doesn’t probe personality, background or “cartoonic” face. it detects whether someone is telling a lie.
hawaiianguy on Wed, 20th Feb 2008 3:34 am
Alonsagabi,
That’s what people call “shooting the messenger” so the message stops dead right on its track. It is a calculated strategy to deflect attention from a raging issue. He is vilified, crucified, called names of every variety, even portrayed as a liar, as if by doing so the stinking corruption that he disclosed will be deodorized and forgotten.
Sooner or later, Lozada (clearly the underdog) will literally be lionized by the dogs as he faces suits of every kind, threats and intidimation.
Alonsagabi on Wed, 20th Feb 2008 3:36 am
Bencard :
alonsagabi, a lie detector doesn’t probe personality, background or “cartoonic†face. it detects whether someone is telling a lie.
Bencard,
I Know, i was once put on a lie detecting machine.
What i’m trying to say is that the current topic is focusing on the Lozada’s identity and personality which could/would establish Lozada’s credibility.
Bencard on Wed, 20th Feb 2008 3:41 am
mlq3, i looked again at the ust ad in question using your link. what i saw, again, is this text:
“people have been asking: what is ust’s stand regarding the nbn/zte controvery? what is ust’s statement on the current moral and political turmoil affecting our country?
“this is ust’s statement.”
(picture of lozada with caption about his academic degrees and classes).
“is there a more eloquent statement than a true thomasian?”
that’s it manolo, unless we are looking at different ads. what say you?
watchful eye on Wed, 20th Feb 2008 3:43 am
ben…. (better?),
in the overall scheme of things in the search for truth, legal truth is not all there is to it. that means then that anyone from all sides, the accuser, the accused, a mere bystander, or a loner from the horde may take the initial crucial step finding the truth per se. there are no rules of court to observe … especially if the venue is the court of public opinion… except maybe honesty, sincerity and plain logic. is that too hard understand?
watchful eye on Wed, 20th Feb 2008 3:48 am
“is there a more eloquent statement than a true thomasian?â€
i could lend my watchful ones. someone seems crossed-eyed here.
Bert on Wed, 20th Feb 2008 3:55 am
“She has no friends or allies either. Watch out you guys, however cosmopolitan (hence, not probinsyano) you are. She is a jealous Tyrant.–Abe N. Margallo
Not true, Abe, she has Anthony and Bencard. Guys, Tyrant daw hu.
Zel on Wed, 20th Feb 2008 4:01 am
hawaiianguy,
I agree with you 100%. People will bastardize his name and his very being but we can’t deny the message he sends, corruption is the NORM. This is the message we need to focus on. Sobra sobra na ang pangungurakot sa gobyerno. Do people mean to say they doubt this revelation? All Lozada did was put names and faces into the actions we all know are happening day in and day out.
And Bencard you said ..
“in our system of justice, the accuser usually proves
the truth of what he says. the accused is not required
to prove his/her innocence.”
Precisely, this makes it legal but not necessarily right. If I am accused, sure the legal systems does not REQUIRE me to prove my innocence but a JUST man will have no qualms of proving he is right because he has nothing to fear. ANG KATARUNGAN ay TAMA LAGI! JUSTICE is always RIGHT! This is the challenge to ABALOS, FG, PGMA, et. al
UP n student on Wed, 20th Feb 2008 4:01 am
Abe: I’m surprised at your choice of Obama. I didn’t think you’d be swayed by his presents.
Kamote on Wed, 20th Feb 2008 4:05 am
Bencard: why is lozada, a self-proclaimed “poor†chinese from bicol and head of a minor, run-of -the-mill government corporation, able to afford sending 3 or 4 kids to la salle, obtaining and maintaining membership at wack wack, regularly dining at expensive restaurants, rubbing elbows with top business honchos and government officials? just wondering.
He never said he is poor. Nor he said he dont do permissible corruption. Maybe you should double check what you are saying.
UP n student on Wed, 20th Feb 2008 4:41 am
Zel: I disagree with you that if a person is accused, that person has a responsibility to prove his or her innocence.
The reasoning is simple. It takes effort to prove innocence. It takes time and money to prove innocence.
If it becomes the responsibility of the accused to prove innocence, then there will be a lot more lawsuits against the poorer. These lawsuits intended to deprive these poorer citizens of assets or property or whatever will probably win (for example, from lousy record-keeping where Torrens titles are missing or flawed) if the accused has the responsibility to prove their innocence.
UP n student on Wed, 20th Feb 2008 4:47 am
Zel: How much will it cost you to prove that you are your father’s child? Did you factor in the missed work-days so that you can appear in court? You did not assume juswt one court hearing, did you? Can you handle five court cases over 8 months? And if the opposing lawyer gets the case heard in Nueva Ecija, are you still okay?
Bencard on Wed, 20th Feb 2008 4:52 am
zel & watchful eye, you can make your own rules for all i care. just wait and see when you get arrested for murder based on nothing but the allegations of a lozada-like accuser. if you have to prove your innocence first before you are released from detention, would you agree to that?
bert, the hate-gloria people think they are the only ones that inhabit this world. this is not the first time we’ve been discounted here. btw, i support gma as my president. but i cannot be her friend because, while i know her public persona, she doesn’t know me, as she doesn’t know most of the people here, if there’s any.
watchful eye on Wed, 20th Feb 2008 5:06 am
upn, if 77% of filipinos think you should resign and before that 10 of your official family left their positions, don’t you feel obligated as president to come forward and tell them …. “wait a minute, guys, i’m innocent, those tapes are bogus, i’ll show you and prove it,†and also say “teka muna taong bayan don’t be too harsh in judging me, the zte-nbn deal is aboveboard and i’ll let mr. neri tell you everything bec I’ve nothing to hide, in fact i’ll let bencard cross-examine romy so i will lift eo 464†etc.
what’s so expensive about that compared to the situation now where everything seems at standstill?
watchful eye on Wed, 20th Feb 2008 5:15 am
zel & watchful eye, you can make your own rules for all i care. just wait and see when you get arrested for murder based on nothing but the allegations of a lozada-like accuser. if you have to prove your innocence first before you are released from detention, would you agree to that? – bencard
if big mike is accused of murder “on nothing but the allegations of a lozada-like accuser” then throw the books of em. but why not confront the real situation now instead of coming out with a hypothetical that suits ur argument?
this is my last post. umaga na pala
UP n student on Wed, 20th Feb 2008 5:25 am
watchful eye: you do know, right, that Bencard will want to be reimbursed for the hotel accomodations and the airplane ticket from Boston to Manila? Round-trip, too
!!! And don’t forget his meals, phone-call charges, taxicab fares. And he may need to consult with DJB-the-Realist and Father Bernas, at least one of them charges an arm and a leg is my understanding.
UP n student on Wed, 20th Feb 2008 6:20 am
watchful eye: I can sense your frustration.
Abe: Maybe you can provide some of your insights – from lawyer perspective, from abnegation-for-the-greater-Good perspective, from any-other — about watchful eye’s view that President-GMA should prove her innocence re Garci.
hvrds on Wed, 20th Feb 2008 6:45 am
Big Mike, GMA and Neri will reform the political economy of the Philippines.
Big Mike, GMA and Neri will reform the anatomy of Philippine society.
In practical terms political economy is essentially power and wealth’s influence over the market place.
In simple terms the market place is simply about price discovery.
The entire bone of contention is about price discovery in the ZTE deal and other government procurement projects.
In the case of state capitalism the price is what the state says it is.
How can anyone begin to understand the term political economy when it was never taught in schools. They taught political science and economics as two separate disciplines as the issue of the distributive aspects of economics was simply dismissed as a Marxist idea.
Big Mike, GMA and Neri will solve the problem of unequal opportunities in the country.
Yet they refuse to discuss the issues relative to price discovery of the ZTE purchase.
It is so so simple why all the fuss. Price discovery.
Bloomberg, Thomson Financial, Standard and Poor, Dow Jones
are publishing houses that publish financial information about companies and governments.
With all that information the question will always boil down to price discovery.
It is tragic that Neri fails to comprehend or grasp so simple a concept. What is the price and what is the country getting in exchange in quantitative and qualitative terms to put the Treasury in additional debt for the next 25 years.
james on Wed, 20th Feb 2008 7:39 am
ang mga pabadlung mao kaning mga tawo dinhi..mao ni sila ang mga dagkong alimango nga sige butong sa atong nasod..
how could you make lozada a hero?? the character is flawed right from the start..he has a ‘permissible cut’ and has not revealed his wealth from this loot
he asked for money and after he was given told us he was bribed… he asked for protection and after being given one he told us he was kidnapped?!
clearly this is all orchestrated. the religious – they are hypocrites! How can they prejudge people
Why should the noisy few in imperial manila tell us what to do? they’re not even 2% of the whole population.
change the system guys even the way you want to ‘burn the house’, its my house too
The Ca t on Wed, 20th Feb 2008 7:39 am
wow, totoo ba ito? When you’re hired in the government and your in the plantilla, there will always be a budget for the position. not unless they are not included in the plantilla because they are not civil service eligible.
sino ba ang sira ang ulo na aakuin ang sweldo ng mga tao na nagtatrabaho sa gobyerno. this is the first time, i heard of this incident. kung walang pasweldo, tanggalin.
hind naman charitable institution yan. Siguro sapat nga ipacanonize na siya as saint dahil nagpapasweldo siya ng mga taong dapat ang gobyerno ang nagpapasweldo. O nag-aadvance siya at pagdating ng kanilang checks merong bawas ng interest?
ang lagapak ng salita niyang hudas, siguro naririnig ni neri. grin grin grin.
JMCastro on Wed, 20th Feb 2008 7:54 am
Zel:
The spirit of entrepreneurship isn’t all about business. It is the application of vision and superior technique, and the willingness to undergo risk in the pursuit of the highest goal. It requires insight as to which action will maximize your results given the circumstances around you.
Great bureaucrats and businessmen have one thing in common — the prudence to float and survive despite adverse circumstances, and stubbornness to insist on the reaching their dreams and aspirations.
I have met good Philippine government bureaucrats, and the best ones exhibit patience and prudence in everything they do, with an emphasis on consensus-building whenever possible, similar to the characteristics you need to work with NGOs and cooperatives (areas where I personally prefer to work in).
Unlike the other people in this blog, I think there is a future in working for the government. From your writing style, I think that you are a creative person with a good sense of righteousness. I pray that true entrepreneurial spirit is with you regardless of what path you choose in life.
benign0 on Wed, 20th Feb 2008 8:28 am
From Conrado de Quiros’s column on INQ7.net today:
“Lagdameo called for a “brand new people power†and said a campaign against corruption in government may be a start.”
Duh?!
This must be the zillionth call for a “campaign against corruption” in the last 10 years!
And a “brand new people power”? Gimme a break. For that matter, give EVERYONE a break.
I’ve always preached that Pinoys are pathetically imagination-challenged, but this simply removes any semblance of ‘challenge’ in Pinoy society
I think all that lead in the atmosphere in Manila is rapidly eroding the IQ’s of these bozos.
And get a load of this:
“Lagdameo told reporters the challenge to Filipinos today was to find “how to express its new brand of people power.†He said he was optimistic that the civil society groups he met may have already found some of the answers to this challenge.”
So let me get this straight. First there is a moronic call for a “brand new people power”. Then it turns out that this is a challenge for Pinoys to figure out exactly how differently this one should go?
Talaga naman oo.
That’s Church “leadership” for you. Just smoke and mirrors. It’s no wonder that this relic of an organisation struggles to stem its rapid descent to irrelevance (or least amongst people who know how to THINK).
cvj on Wed, 20th Feb 2008 8:28 am
If you read carefully, you’ll see that i was not blaming the edsa tres crowd. As i said before, it is the refusal of the EDSA Dos crowd to hold Gloria to the same standard as Erap that is to blame.
It is people’s inaction that keeps Gloria in Malacanang. Of course, kasama ka na doon.
Mita on Wed, 20th Feb 2008 8:37 am
Vic,
It does make a difference – for that one child and his future. You know how Pinoys are, one makes it and he will not leave his family behind. There are kids out there who are in their teens and cannot read and write, what future do they face? They don’t even think they have a future! That saying “It takes a village to raise a child” didn’t come out of nowhere.
We simply cannot leave everything to the government. Governments do not have heart, it’s the people who do (now I’m sounding like Imelda!) Remember what JFK said in his inaugural speech? Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country?
As I said in an earlier comment, we each have a RESPONSIBILITY as citizens to help make elections more credible. It’s not the job of one person, but with a better educated population, the job is easier. It may take time, but we have to start building that better future or we’ll never get there.
In the US, I was struck by simple Americans’ kindness and charity. A lot of people in every community do charity work and involve their family, the kids especially. They feed (cook too) the hungry, provide comfort to the homeless, raise funds for good causes, assemble care packages for children all over the world. I met one woman with her grandkids in tow in a department store there and she told me she wasn’t sure what size of socks to get for her Christmas care packages. Do you think it matters? Poor kids with nothing will MAKE it fit…
Maybe it’s time we start a CULTURE OF RESPONSIBILITY and PAYING FORWARD, at least in our country. Maybe if we start now, and make this not just the oligarchy’s turf we will build a giving as opposed to taking, more compassionate character in our children and maybe those beneficiaries of one OFW’s kindness will grow up to be president or NEDA Chair…..who knows…stranger things have happened…
Mita on Wed, 20th Feb 2008 8:44 am
CVJ,
I’m one of the EDSA Dos crowd. I regret we were too hasty and emotional then and didn’t let the impeachment process play out completely. There would have been CERTAINTY. Erap’s conviction vindicated our actions in a way but then there was the pardon…
Personally, EDSA Dos was a mistake and a lesson learned.
Abe N. Margallo on Wed, 20th Feb 2008 8:45 am
Up n,
If we are talking of ordinary crimes being tried in an ordinary court of law, then there is no question that bencard is giving this forum the correct advice. For in such a case, it would be plain courtroom drama where the players are governed more or less strictly by the Rules of Court; it’s not even “courtroom politics†in the sense of the SC coming up with some foggy conception of “constructive resignation†to justify the ousting of a duly elected president.
However, when what’s involved for instance is the Garci tapes scandal or the ZTE-NBN deal -where the stage of courtroom drama is supposed to wait until constitutional immunities are lifted in the case of the President – then we are dealing already with what I’ve referred to in the other thread as telenovela or “living room politics†in which a much larger pool of jury, the entire nation in fact, is involved. In such a case now, we need to play by the famous Magsaysay doctrine: can we (BOTH parties) defend our case in Plaza Miranda?
Kabayan on Wed, 20th Feb 2008 8:57 am
It is incredible while some here are mouthing about rule of law, they were mum about it when Gloria’s goons raided places where the opposition were accounting Election returns without a warrant.
Through all these years they still turn a blind eye that the rule of law is the law that this Executive wants. That is only one among many. Study the E.O. 464, when it was released first and what were the circumstances of it. Gagging people who were testifying on the election anomalies in Lanao province and persecuting General Gudani and Colonel Balutan because they were simply telling what they witnessed; that are only a small part of this administration’s excesses.
The Rule of Law that some here mouth is actually the Rule of Gloria. Some people here easily forget … or more accurately CHOOSE to forget and gloss over injustices with “LETS MOVE ON” statement. Let’s move on to what? Let’s move on to the next set of corruption and anomalies? So enough about gagging witnesses and stifling protest actions, there are enough corrupted laws as it is.
ramrod on Wed, 20th Feb 2008 8:58 am
Its time for action so you will not be hearing from me for quite some time. I really believe all of us here although with opposing viewpoints really care for the Filipino, some come in with a “tough love” approach and some more straightforward. Thanks for allowing me a much needed respite.
I don’t believe that working for the government is the worst fate anyone can dream of also, its still a noble profession, the politicians that tarnish it, yes even right down to the kotong cops are not the government, in fact they are not even indispensable elements of it. The more people who have good and noble intentions join it, the better chances we have of a charting our destiny as a country.
As OFWs, we continue to send in the dollars, we are helping the country, so what if we are helping the corrupt officials in the process, I really don’t care much for them. My concern is, there are people who are hungry, people who are sick and can’t afford medicine, kids who aren’t in school, and people who are arbitrarily detained whose families are suffering as we blog. What are we prepared to do?
Let people work for their advocacies just as long as the end result we are looking at is for the betterment of the country. And for pete’s sake, actually do something, don’t just be content with diffusing your outrage or whatever creative or productive energy through the internet – however articulate we may be, without action our words are cheapened.
ramrod on Wed, 20th Feb 2008 9:01 am
For the record, lets forgive ourselves, the EDSAs were a part of who we are, in our struggles for continous reforms, our aspirations…we reached for something better for ourselves, we made mistakes, so what? who doesn’t?
If more EDSAs need to come, lets go, but for God’s sake let us never stop and just lie down.
tonio on Wed, 20th Feb 2008 9:03 am
hmm… Joson filed a bill in Congress calling for snap elections. while i am unfamiliar with the politics of Nueva Ecija, this guy is from one of that province’s big families, right?
and he’s asking Congress to earmark PHP 2 billion for it.
… just another oligarch calling for a round of musical chairs.
sheesh.
Kabayan on Wed, 20th Feb 2008 9:03 am
ramrod said:
“…Let people work for their advocacies just as long as the end result we are looking at is for the betterment of the country. And for pete’s sake, actually do something, don’t just be content with diffusing your outrage or whatever creative or productive energy through the internet – however articulate we may be, without action our words are cheapened.”
============
Amen to that ramrod.
benign0 on Wed, 20th Feb 2008 9:11 am
“We simply cannot leave everything to the government. Governments do not have heart, it’s the people who do (now I’m sounding like Imelda!) Remember what JFK said in his inaugural speech? Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country?”
The irony here is that Pinoys fancy themselves to be people who do not trust nor rely on the government AND YET seem to see Government as both the source of all their troubles (thus all the circuses we are seeing today) AND a source of their potential future prosperity (thus all this attention on who is sitting in Malacanang).
Why does the sitting incumbent matter so much when it is generally agreed that the problems facing Pinoy society are so deeply ingrained and systemic that a change in bum-on-seat will not yield any tangible benefit to the ordinay Pinoy?
It’s kind of like this loser attitude towards God. When we fail, we pray to God for relief. And when we succeed, we think it is by God’s “graces”. It’s as if the INDIVIDUAL has no place in such a loser mentality.
It’s now wonder that the Philippines is a perennial loser in a region of winners.
tonio on Wed, 20th Feb 2008 9:15 am
ramrod:
i read your reply (scrolled a looong way up for it, too) and i’m glad we are in agreement. the EDSAs were experiments in destruction that failed because they didn’t go far enough. in retrospect, the only way the people’s will might have been fulfilled at the time was a bloody purge, ala the Cultural Revolution. (which might not be too bad if it gets all those elites, eh cvj?) the EDSAs simply gave the reins of power to other, more rapacious, oligarchs, and have thus resulted in… nothing.
there is no such thing as “snack size” destruction.
mlq3:
katipunan was clogged again last night. (i live around the area, but far enough not to hear the noise. my indication is traffic on the northbound lanes) perhaps you are right sir. i think what this exercise is doing is making clear in the minds of the people what it is they really want.
benign0 on Wed, 20th Feb 2008 9:17 am
“the EDSAs were a part of who we are, in our struggles for continous reforms, our aspirations…we reached for something better for ourselves, we made mistakes, so what? who doesn’t?”
That’s right. Who doesn’t make mistakes anyway?
The difference between winners and PERENNIAL losers, however, is how well lessons are learned from mistakes.
History will tell us that Pinoys merely stumbled from one crisis to another, and from one hollow-headed street “revolution” to another.
Go figure.
Bencard on Wed, 20th Feb 2008 9:21 am
abe, that’s right. all the more a lie detector test for lozada should be taken and shown to the public. even if this whole thing is a political exercise, the senate owes it to the people to take all possible ways to ferret out the truth and let the people judge for themselves. lozada’s refusal to take could only mean one thing – he won’t pass it because all along he was lying.
this lie detector test should be a standard requirement for all resource persons who are implicating others by their testimony. this is about the only way we could make these people take responsibility for what they say, thereby serving the interest of fairness and protecting the innocent. fair is fair even in politics. anything blatantly unfair cannot be defended even in plaza miranda!
anthony scalia on Wed, 20th Feb 2008 9:22 am
cvj,
“you’re right mas interesting diyan sa Pilipinas and i’d also rather be there than here,”
salamat for acknowledging the obvious
“but i hope your businessman-friends would consider”
no they won’t
“If you notice, Singapore’s average family income moves in the same direction as GDP, unlike the strange behavior of our statistics in the Philippines, pataas daw ang GDP pero pababa naman ang monthly income. Kaduda-duda talaga.”
tsk tsk tsk tsk. still looking for facts to confirm your biases. anything basta may maipukol lang kay gloria
iho, hindi yan kaduda duda. GDP measures economic activity more than the quality of living.
may i remind you, i never ever said that with the 7.3 “the Philippines has arrived!” or poverty has considerably reduced” or something to that effect.
sabi ko nga, “7.3 is well and good, nagbubunga na ang pinaghihirapan natin, lets go back to work to ensure that the 7.3 is sustainable” no more no less.
iho, kung gustong doktorin ang figures, nung 2001 pa sana ginawa ni gloria yan, up to now. magtaka kayo kung since 2001 up to now ang official GDP figures yearly ay di bumabababa sa 7%
ikaw naman, parang di ka sanay sa nature of statistics.
buti pa, sabihin mo na lang na “the real barometer should be increasing FI, not GDP figures” then i won’t argue with you
“In any case, mabuti naman at mukhang malakas pa din ang kita ng lechon-manok sector diyan.”
salamat for admitting the obvious
“That means hindi pala totoo ang pinagsasabi ni Gloria Arroyo tungkol sa ‘political noise’.”
di ko alam kung ano ang sinasabi ni gloria sa ‘political noise’. she can mean its business as usual despite the ‘political noise’
tonio on Wed, 20th Feb 2008 9:23 am
bencard:
but i thought polygraph evidence is inadmissible in court? don’t get me wrong, i’d love to strap that Lozada to a polygraph, but what will it prove?
Bencard on Wed, 20th Feb 2008 9:33 am
tonio, as i said above, repeatedly, neither the senate nor the office of the ombudsman, is a court of law. hence, the inadmissibility does not apply.
it will prove to the people hailing lozada a hero that he is either lying or telling the truth as he is claiming. see also my response to abe margallo above.
Jon Mariano on Wed, 20th Feb 2008 9:40 am
I agree, we should put Lozada to the test using a lie detector. I would also like to see Razon, Gaite, Atutubo, and others subjected to the same test to see who is lying and who is telling the truth. In fact it would also be good to have Neri tested too, he might just be lying when he said that Abalos offered him 200M.
Jon Mariano on Wed, 20th Feb 2008 9:42 am
I would also like that gov’t official who lost the ZTE contracts in China be tested!
Jon Mariano on Wed, 20th Feb 2008 9:43 am
And if Lozada turns out to be telling the truth, then what?
DevilsAdvc8 on Wed, 20th Feb 2008 9:44 am
bencard, i’m all for submitting lozada to a lie detector test. but while we’re at it, why don’t we include everyone who’s been implicated in this NBN-ZTE scandal?
so let’s line them all up: lozada, jdv3, fg, abalos, neri, and once and for all, gma.
then we put their results side by side and see who’s lying the most, hehe.
Mita on Wed, 20th Feb 2008 9:45 am
ramrod, my statement about Edsa Dos went further than “mistake”…it concludes with “lesson learned.”
DevilsAdvc8 on Wed, 20th Feb 2008 9:48 am
we could have it televised live! (the testing)
and boy would it boost a network’s rating off the scale!
ramrod on Wed, 20th Feb 2008 9:48 am
mita,
Its always my belief that we learn from our mistakes, even from our “not mistakes.”
Mita on Wed, 20th Feb 2008 9:48 am
puede din ako sumali sa polygraph test? at puede din bang ilabas yan sa ABS-CBN – Harap-Harapan!
“Was it you or the dog that farted?”
Mita on Wed, 20th Feb 2008 9:51 am
sus, isa pang kulang sa imagination…
“The camp of Sen. Loren Legarda vowed to take her election protest to the media and the public after the Supreme Court (SC) junked with finality her motion to reconsider her electoral case against Vice President Noli de Castro.”
If she did an Al Gore, then she’d probably have a Nobel by now…
tonio on Wed, 20th Feb 2008 9:56 am
then he’s telling truth, according to the polygraph. it might not be admissible in court, but it should satisfy some sectors.
i think the real problem is that Lozada comes across as someone who’s “playing” the system. it’s quite obvious he’s played it well enough for people to be willing to spring for his shopping bills and whatnot.
maybe polygraph results can change this perception, i don’t know.
ramrod on Wed, 20th Feb 2008 10:00 am
guys,
A few years back, 10 years ago really, this company I applied to submitted me to a lie detector test as part of the requirements, so I was there in NBI, with something strapped on me (not unlike the BP machine)and some suction tipped things, etc. I was asked obvious questions like “is your name______?” “do you live in ____?” etc. answerable by yes or no.
When they asked me something like, “did you have premarital sex with your girlfriend? I said no (I was lying of course) as I’m not a kiss and tell – requirement or not. Well, what do you know, it didn’t register as a lie and I got the job anyway.
This machine basically detects stress, and if you understand how it works, and if you are in a good level of health, actually sports level, its possible to calm yourself down and fool it.
ramrod on Wed, 20th Feb 2008 10:04 am
Of course, years of transcendental meditation will help.
cvj on Wed, 20th Feb 2008 10:09 am
Mita, that’s a self-serving lesson that you derive from EDSA Dos. We help put her there, it’s our responsibility to take her out.
tonio, ‘cultural revolution’ is benign0’s department. i’m more for a more targeted spring cleaning of oligarchs.
If we translate to what happened in China, i want our own 1949 where the oligarchs were driven off the island, not 1956 (‘Great Leap Forward)’ which was a harebrained scheme at backyard industrialization (a-la Benign0’s recommendations) nor 1966 (‘Cultural Revolution’) which was a focus to renew a damaged culture (also a-la Benign0’s and Fallows’ thesis).
Jon Mariano on Wed, 20th Feb 2008 10:09 am
Ramrod, there are even “inconclusive” results! The point is, we’re just riding along with Bencard. He seems to be really sold on the polygraph. He’s turning into a Joker who asked Jun to stop talking about his wife. Maybe Bencard didn’t think about Jun Lozada passing the test.
Silent Waters on Wed, 20th Feb 2008 10:14 am
I would like to play devil’s advocate for the anti gloria crowd here. (Not to say I am pro Gloria but I would also like to be fair.) Assuming for the sake of argument, all the accused persons in the administration admits to all these shenanigans, you would certainly ask for their head, won’t you? Why do you think these people are stubborn in refusing to vacate their positions? They know thye’ll be seeing the lynch mobs di ba?
Just wondering out loud…;-)
cvj on Wed, 20th Feb 2008 10:17 am
Anthony, both per capita gdp and average income per family are measures of income. As such, they are primarily quantitative, not qualitative indicators. I understand that they don’t measure the same things (e.g. corporate income is not measured in the latter and ofw income is not included in the former) but it is highly irregular that one increases and the other decreases over a span of a decade (1997 to 2006). Either average family income is being understated or per capita GDP is being overstated.
mang_kiko on Wed, 20th Feb 2008 10:21 am
madali lang pasahin ni Lozada yong LDT na yon, di ba sabi nang GMA fans magaling na artista si jon-jon. alam naman nang lahat na HINDI tinatanggap nang korte sa Amerika ang resulta nang LDT dahil ito kayang kayang talunin nang mangaling mangsinugaling, lalo na yong manga abogados. Bakit pinipilit sa isang tistigo lang at hindi sa iba. Si Neri unang testigo rin, di ba, si JVD, si Abalas nag testify din, si Lozada yong Tao sa una ayaw na ayaw dahil madiskobre rin ang kanyang pagnanakaw, ayan binulgar na nga, ayaw pa paniwala-an. Hay.. liko sa kaliwa, ticket rin, liko sa kanan, ticket rin. magaling talaga ang manga abogado, kaya walang progreso itong Bayan natin..
mlq3 on Wed, 20th Feb 2008 10:26 am
bencard, watch “harapan.” you’re not the only one interested in a lie detector test.
DevilsAdvc8 on Wed, 20th Feb 2008 10:36 am
ramrod, then that polygraph test you underwent is jurassic. there’s a much modern polygraph test nowadays. used by, to name one, the Secret Service!
it isn’t just the machine that’s important in distinguishing bet truths and lies. what’s more important is how the questions are constructed, asked, and fielded. timing is crucial. as is throwing the one undergoing the test off their comfort zone.
bibilib nako sayo kung ang polygraph na pinakuha sayo ay un merong electrodes na nilagay sa ulo mo, measuring your brain activity. try to meditate your brain into lying if you can, hehe.
mlq3 on Wed, 20th Feb 2008 10:40 am
james, some factual points:
metro manila constitutes 39% of the population of the philippines, not 2% as you claim:
http://www.txtmania.com/trivia/national.php
(and luzon, 56% of the population)
see also:
http://countrystudies.us/philippines/34.htm
and
http://worldfacts.us/Philippines.htm
Jeg on Wed, 20th Feb 2008 10:41 am
There’s this newfangled ‘polygraph’ thing that measures which part of the brain youre accessing. If youre lying, you tend to access the right hemisphere more, the one in charge of creativity. If what youre saying is a true memory, it will show you accessing your ‘memory banks’ and not your creativity.
Bencard on Wed, 20th Feb 2008 10:47 am
if the naysayers here think the machine can be fooled, then all the more lozada should have no fear taking it and risk arousing grave doubt about his honesty and credibility. if he can beat it because he is a master at deception, then he should take it if only to silence us who think he is lying.
mang kiko, sinabi ko na, kung sino ang naga-akusa, siya and magpatunay na nagsasabi siya ng tutuo. hindi ba makatarungan yan? wala talagang progreso kung puro salita lang, walang laman! kung nakakaintindi ka ng ingles, basahin mo nga uli and sinabi ko sa itaas na walang kinalaman ang sinasabi mong hind tanggap ng korte sa amerika ang test. mali yan. tinatangap din kung napagkasunduan ng magkabilang panig. isa pa, hind korte ang senada o ang ofisina ng ombudsman. naintindihan mo?
Jeg on Wed, 20th Feb 2008 10:53 am
Bencard, sabi ngani ni MLQ3, watch the Harapan. Lozada was willing ttake the polygraph test with Abalos. Abalos balked, preferring to eat hamborjer.
tonio on Wed, 20th Feb 2008 10:55 am
cvj:
hmmm…. we don’t have a Taiwan to boot the oligarchs to. and you’d see an unprecedented level of capital flight if you did something like that.
Jeg on Wed, 20th Feb 2008 11:02 am
Re: booting out the oligarchs. I have to go back to Mr. Austero. “We are willing to give up some of our rights just to move this country forward.” If we are willing to take some of the oligarch’s rights, are we willing to do the same and give up some of ours? I was pondering this a few days back. Would I be willing to give up some of my rights just to ensure that the poorest of us get theirs?
ramrod on Wed, 20th Feb 2008 11:16 am
devils,
True. Jurassic na talaga yun, pati yung opisina hga eh. Akala ko nga electric chair na yun inupuan ko, yung dating mga folding metal ones (favorite ng mga WWW wrestlers), may kalawang pa.
Anyway, Lozada agreed to a lie detector test, Abalos did not, preferring to stick with his “kodigos” documents, affidavits, etc. – basically a lawyers attempt to intimidate him (volumes of evidence).
Unfortunately, as some jurassic lawyers still eroneously believe, the common tao is not easily cowed anymore by lawyers, especially the jurassic ones.
rego on Wed, 20th Feb 2008 11:24 am
February 20th, 2008 at 2:44 am
Zel :
DevilsAdvc6 said:
“well, there you have it. we can’t find decent people in govt bec no decent person is willing to work for it.â€
——————
My exact sentiments!
================================================
Or is becuase we the people destroyed the eputations of these people.
What I see is that the anti Gloria crowds will destroy the reputation of any government official or elected politician that refuses to go to their side. Look at Joker. Now even his very low profile wife Fely was’nt spared. This is how desperate, pathetic, and evil the anti Gloria crowd is. That is the reason why there is really NO WAY that I can join this crowd. NEVER!
ramrod on Wed, 20th Feb 2008 11:26 am
And whats with this showing Abalos’ grandson studying in La Salle Greenhills making a signed statement?
If you really listen to what he’s saying, he doesn’t want any part in it, wishing his friendship with Lozada’s son (his classmate and friend) will still be there after all of this has settled.
Cheap shot really, interviewing even Jon Abalos and his wife…
Jeg on Wed, 20th Feb 2008 11:26 am
Or is becuase we the people destroyed the reputations of these people.
Rego, is this a serious question? It’s OUR fault?
tonio on Wed, 20th Feb 2008 11:37 am
ramrod:
the media here will cover anything.
rego:
that was waaaaay out in left field this time.
so you mean to say that decent people don’t have any objective criteria that makes them decent? and it’s up to the perception of the allegedly evil “anti-Gloria” crowd what kind of perception a public official will have?
moderate your… i dunno “prejudice”?
ramrod on Wed, 20th Feb 2008 11:38 am
Joker Arroyo stood for something once, allow him time to ponder on the present issues. He is only human, he can make mistakes.
We are responsible for our reputations, we do or not do things to destroy it. If for some reason, some people damage it, whats important is that we know ourselves and that the truth will come out, eventually.
But let this not stop us from doing what we need to do, reputations will come in later.
Mita on Wed, 20th Feb 2008 11:41 am
something wrong in what bong austero stated. you can’t give up your rights. in a democracy, the assumption is, your rights are inherent. i think that was poorly worded, a better alternative would be “we are willing to make sacrifices…”
cvj, see there’s where we differ…for me, it’s not about HER. where we are is not only because of EDSA dos. we got here because of the past – colonization, the revolution, the war, independence, peacetime, Marcos, Cory, FVR and Erap. the corruption did not happen overnight, nor will we get rid of it overnight.
it’s about the bigger picture, for me that’s the country’s future and stability. at this point in our history, my view is, railroading the government’s stability through exta-constitutional methods is detrimental to the economy and impedes our chance for a steady and stable development – not just economic but socio-political development as well.
we have to go thru the process of maturity, grow up as a nation and stop acting like spoiled brats who throw a tanrtum everytime a parent makes us unhappy. I’m sorry to say this, but that is exactly the image we project to the world when we opt for the parliament of the streets and that is the truth. more imagination in our approach is all i’m suggesting…we’re not a dumb people, I’m sure we can figure something out.
If there’s one thing I’m certain of, it’s CHANGE. We will not always have the hastily-written constitution we now have, we won’t always regard people power as our only resort and we won’t always have GMA as president.
Mita on Wed, 20th Feb 2008 11:46 am
maiba…
Hello, Obama! Good-bye, Hillary!
Jon Mariano on Wed, 20th Feb 2008 11:50 am
I’m expecting Bencard to say that having Jun Lozada have a polygraph test is a bad idea after all.
Ano nga kaya ang nangyari kung nag lie detector test sina Jun Lozada at Ben Abalos no? Sana wala nang ganitong debate dito sa blog ni MLQ3 (about the polygraph).
rego on Wed, 20th Feb 2008 11:57 am
I Like them both though. Becuase there is not much difference in thier platform actually. So it deosn’t really matter much to me who gets the nomination. I lik ethem both to be president So if I were to vote now my vote goes to Hilary. I’ll give her a chance first. I ll support Obama after 8 years. Hilary is 61 while Obama is oly 46. After 8 years he is just 52 anyway.
Jeg on Wed, 20th Feb 2008 11:58 am
you can’t give up your rights. in a democracy, the assumption is, your rights are inherent.
I dont mean to be persnickety, Mita, but not all rights are inherent. Our Constitution places inherent rights in the Bill of Rights, recognizing that these rights come from God, or Nature, or whoever higher power you subscribe to. Those others, like the right to suffrage, are not inherent. They are given to you by the State and can take it away again. You also have no real right to private property. The State can take it away with compensation.
Also you CAN give up your rights. The ‘right to remain silent’ for instance. Or the right to not incriminate yourself.
rego on Wed, 20th Feb 2008 12:00 pm
Geez, kahit yung polygraph test inuunahan ng ng resulta. Why not work for both parties to agree on polugraph test first an lets see the results. Paano na kaya yun kung pumasa si Abalos sa polygraph test. Looks like anaother egg on the face.
Jeg on Wed, 20th Feb 2008 12:01 pm
Ano nga kaya ang nangyari kung nag lie detector test sina Jun Lozada at Ben Abalos no?
“Masarap ba ang borjer sa Wack-Wack?”
“Opo.”
Beeep-beeep-beeep.
Jeg on Wed, 20th Feb 2008 12:02 pm
Paano na kaya yun kung pumasa si Abalos sa polygraph test. Looks like anaother egg on the face.
Geez, kahit yung polygraph test inuunahan ng ng resulta.
ace on Wed, 20th Feb 2008 12:03 pm
If this news item in the front page of Inquirer today is true. I think it will take some heat off someone like Jun Lozada.
New mystery witness has more ‘damning’ testimony
by TJ Burgonio, Dona Pazzibugan
Philippine Daily Inquirer
First Posted 05:27:00 02/20/2008
MANILA, Philippines — A “techie†who knows the personalities who received commissions in connection with the scuttled $329-million National Broadband Network (NBN) contract is among the new witnesses set to testify in the Senate inquiry into the scandal-tainted deal.
This prospective witness was “involved†in the deal and could offer “more damning†testimony than that given by NBN consultant-turned-whistle-blower Rodolfo Noel Lozada Jr., according to a lawyer privy to the preparations being made by the witness.
“He has more knowledge of the advance payments, and who made the advances,†said the lawyer, who declined to be identified.
“He’s known to Lozada and he’s actually all over the Internet,†the lawyer told the Philippine Daily Inquirer Tuesday, noting that the mystery person had been mentioned in at least one political blog.
Once he has completed arrangements for the “security†of his family, the witness will divulge all he knows about the deal in a press conference sometime this week, the lawyer said.
But the lawyer said the witness he was referring to was different from the one earlier described by the chair of the Senate blue ribbon committee, Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano.”
Jeg on Wed, 20th Feb 2008 12:03 pm
Sorry, rego. Slow morning today.
Jon Mariano on Wed, 20th Feb 2008 12:37 pm
Nice one Rego. Could a polygraph test have vindicated Abalos? But why did he decline. I’m not going to guess why.
Mita on Wed, 20th Feb 2008 12:38 pm
I prefer Hillary myself, for the experience and ability to reach out across the aisle.
Despite the fact that their platforms are not very different, this race for the Democratic nominee was made more interesting because of who the candidates were. A black man and a woman. I made a prediction to my husband that a woman will have a very difficult time getting elected US President no matter who she is. They’re not ready for a woman, but they seem to be ready for a black man – HUGE step.
cvj on Wed, 20th Feb 2008 12:39 pm
Jeg, the oligarchs can go but their capital cannot (or at least should not). On Austero’s bargain, i believe in reciprocity but i don’t believe in being stupid about it. I also don’t think it’s right for any individual to volunteer other people’s rights because it’s not up to him or her to give these away.
The “it’s our fault” argument of Rego reminds me of the comedy sketch on the subprime crisis (which i posted in my blog – www. cvjugo.blogspot.com/2008/01/ingenuity-of-market-primer-on-subprime.html ). At one point, the banker in that sketch argues that everything would have gone along fine if only the investors did not realize that what they invested in was actually a package of “dodgy debts“.
Similarly, going by Rego’s argument, things would have gone on perfectly normal if we did not pay attention and react to the shenanigans of our government officials.
cvj on Wed, 20th Feb 2008 12:42 pm
Sorry, the oligarchs can go but their capital cannot (or at least should not) above was meant for Tonio.
rego on Wed, 20th Feb 2008 12:58 pm
Mita,
I was actually following very closely this democratic Party nomination. On ething that really impressed me is that there is not much animosity among the voters. Choices were respected. Most people is saying that although they voting for one candidate over the ovther they dont mind if the other candidate gets the nominations.
Of course Im very very impressed on how Obama carry himself on this nomination. so kung hindi man sya magiging presidente ngayon Im sure he will eventually become a president of US of A eventually.
Sumakit lang ang tyan ko sa kakatwa kanina doon sa isang comment na si Trillanes daw can be Obama of the Philippines. Pwede pa siguro si Pangilinan , si Escudero o si Alan Peter Cayetano o si Migz Zubiri. Pero Trillanes? . Tigilan ako!
cvj on Wed, 20th Feb 2008 1:00 pm
Mita, hardly anyone disagrees that our problems go beyond Gloria but that does not take away the fact that she is a major part of the problem. The belief that she is a benign fixture or at worst, an annoyance that we can ignore, is becoming less and less tenable by the day. The whole NBN-ZTE episode, particularly its connection with Abalos, shows that Gloria Arroyo’s illegitimacy (i.e. cheating in 2004) is a continuing crime that begets other crimes like the abduction of an ordinary citizen like Lozada among others.
rego on Wed, 20th Feb 2008 1:03 pm
“Similarly, going by Rego’s argument, things would have gone on perfectly normal if we did not pay attention and react to the shenanigans of our government officials.”
Pay attention or react pwede naman. Depende sa reaction. Kung positive reaction ba naman the OK lang. wiating for 2010 and removing the president through impeaching. Wag lang super duper oever react. Katulad nag mag pinangagawa ng mga kampon mo!
Madonna on Wed, 20th Feb 2008 1:05 pm
Had Gloria not muzzled attempts for making her case unassailable by being open and transparent in the past three years, her administration would not be undergoing this bruhaha where she and her officials are now being tried in the court of public opinion. Unfair eh? But she and her government had been the epitome of unfairness in the past two years. And many would say that her attempts at evasion, bribing (the Congress) and muzzling are just formidable show of realpolitik. Realpolitik, my foot! Now her supporters are crying unfair!
GMA is in fact the biggest foe of the real practice and upholding of the of rule of law. Rule of law is first and foremost about justice and fairness — not legality (and I know that and I am not even a lawyer and practically every Filipino knows that in their gut, the difference between legality and justice).
Once the public cannot see that the institutions are not working to address cases of irregularity and injustice, media steps in (and we see that results are not fine and dandy either with media also rearing its own abuses).
In any case, I still believe that an impeachment would settle this whole bruhaha (anthony, the 70-80 votes needed in the lower house is achievable once the right pressure and systematic target of congressmen who would likely vote for an impeachment is done and now that the public is more likely to clamor for a fair resolution to the crisis). Congressmen will be pliable to public pressure as an election nears (2010) and the public could use this as a bargaining chip to push for an impeachment. Only a third of the reps, not a majority are needed for GMA to be impeached and pass on the Articles of Impeachment to the Senate for trial. I think that’s where we are headed.
I doubt that the DOJ or the Ombudsman would be effective, resolute or independent in investigating the cases against the officials of the administration. The more we wait for 2010, hoping for new elections to clean the slate, the more it sends signals that the public is a push-over with regards to irregularities. GMA’s track record indicates that she cannot be trusted with her pronouncements or promises so the public must take the initiative. Let us take responsibility about making our institutions work properly and not allow the current administration to wreak havoc on them through manipulation and making them rubber stamps.
Kabayan on Wed, 20th Feb 2008 1:05 pm
Conrado de Quiros’ take on “Harapan” at Inquirer.net
Excerpt:
Crossroads
On one side, there was Rodolfo Noel “Jun†Lozada Jr., wearing a T-shirt (he apparently did not know he would be appearing on TV, he thought he would be merely supplying audio from where he was). On the other, there was a whole battery of the usual suspects arrayed against him; originally only Benjamin Abalos was supposed to be there (“Harapan,†or “Face to Face,†was the title of the episode), but one by one the others turned up to join him: lawyer Salvador Panelo, Philippine National Police chief Avelino Razon, Transportation and Communications Assistant Secretary Lorenzo Formoso, Malacañang spokesperson Anthony Golez, and Philippine Chamber of Commerce and Industry president Donald Dee. It prompted Lozada to quip, “I didn’t know I would be facing a mob.â€
Abalos and company’s idea clearly was to shock and awe. With that preponderance of force, such as George W. Bush employed in Iraq, they figured they could pulverize Lozada to rubble. Alas (for them) truth is not easily pulverizable. Even more alas (for them) all they managed was to give viewers an awe-inspiring spectacle of in-your-face lying and shock them into a feeling something they hadn’t felt for some time: a great rage.
When the show started, Lozada had only a 78.6 percent believability rating, based on text messages and calls from viewers. Every time Abalos and the others spoke (and this was the source of my amusement), Lozada’s believability rating spiked upward. By the time the show finished, fully 92 percent of viewers believed Lozada was telling the truth. For the first time, I missed Lito Atienza and Mike Defensor. I have no doubt that if they had been there, Lozada’s believability rating would have climbed to 100 percent…
Kabayan on Wed, 20th Feb 2008 1:12 pm
Madonna wrote:
You got that right on the money.
Jeg on Wed, 20th Feb 2008 1:31 pm
By the time the show finished, fully 92 percent of viewers believed Lozada was telling the truth.
They wouldnt make that mistake again. The next “Harapan” would feature just one GMA minion, but this time backed by a text brigade.
DevilsAdvc8 on Wed, 20th Feb 2008 2:22 pm
ramrod, hehe. buti di ka natakot na baka electric chair nga inuupuan mo. nyways, you think a guy like abalos can be sophisticated enough to beat even a “jurassic” lie detector machine? lol. even spies decades ago needed years of training to beat that machine.
question construction ang key sa paghuli ng lies. in a yes or no Q&A, you can lead the one being questioned into a point where he’ll be faced with the inconsistencies in his past answers. that’s why may cross-examination sa korte. bec witness’ testimonies will have to withstand cross-examination to be credible.
palagay ko di pwedeng i-lie detector si razon. mawi-windang sya sa unang tanong pa lang. it says a lot abt razon na madali syang mahuli. ibig sabihin he’s not a practiced liar, so tama un rumors na he’s a pretty decent guy, who got stuck defending the indefensible – GMA.
i-try nyo kaya si bunye, hahaha. mukha pa lang, pained expression na eh pag alam nyang nagsisinungaling sya, lol. si fg siguro kinakabitan pa lang ng electrodes, baka nagbi-beep na ang machine. suko na raw sa kasinungalingan nya, hahaha.
Mita on Wed, 20th Feb 2008 2:42 pm
Madonna, truthfully, mahirap pa din ang impeachment especially since it is so late in the game, even without JDV in her pocket. If someone starts another HALF-BAKED impeachment complaint, how far will it go? Forgive my pessimism. Judging from the recent past, there’s basis for pessimism.
Then there’s the scenario where she will be directly implicated in the NBN mess and we have another mass uprising. So far, that hasn’t happened and the silent majority is not moving.
On the other hand, you have to wait till 2010 to prosecute her for any offense because the law says an incumbent is immune from suit.
Also, may I suggest, forget being made a pushover…that will only elicit an emotional reaction that skews your decision-making capabilities..ang pikon, talo nga diba? What option is left with the people?
How about the option to come to a common ground and say, “Give us better, we want more.” More what? mmm….more heads to really roll for the NBN mess, bacon on rye bread if the Big man is found guilty of meddling in government deals, for JDV because his son should not have gotten involved in the first place, I’ll take JDV on ice…for a long, long time…and Abalos…kahit ano wag lang burjer.
CVJ, as I said I’m of the opinion that GMA is not our only problem. We just changed the face and name..oh and gender pala.
You called my motives self-serving, how would you call your motives when you say, “we put her in and we have to get her out” Diba self-serving din? Who else does it serve when you assuage your guilt for participating in EDSA Dos? The deed is done, you cannot take it back. It’s kinda like marriage…with a term limit though.
Shouldn’t we who helped install her tell her, “Hey, you better be good or else…you know what can happen to you.” The message that’s being sent so far is just, “I think you’re BAD, get out of there!” Even a child will react negatively to that!
THAT is what I cannot understand and probably what a lot of “sitting on the sideline” types cannot fathom too. We ask what’s the plan, Stan? And no one can answer. The VP is called a wimp and is accused of not stepping up….maybe he feels it’s not his time yet and doesn’t believe in power overthrows.
What for, CVJ? So we can deliver the country to the next dogs who will dig a deeper hole for us? Then in a few years, we work for the overthrow of THAT guy?
Where is the end? Our fear is this: THERE IS NO END. We see a destructive vicious cycle and that’s why, so far, we’ve said NO to power upsets and yes to seeing this administration end its term in 2010.
DevilsAdvc8 on Wed, 20th Feb 2008 3:08 pm
which is why my prediction is so logical. bec mita, what happens when GMA refuses to step down in 2010? my take is, by that time, GMA will have more options and much more power to prolong her stay than the people who will be sapped of the middle class. if we accept that every year there’s almost a million filipinos becoming OFWs, that’s 2 million in 2 years. a sizable portion of the middle class if you ask me. and i’m also sure that by that time, anyone who’s wise enough to foresee the future, will have left the country as early as 2009.
we can prevent the same dogs replacing the old ones by holding a snap election now. that’s always been the logical remedy. wipe the slate clean. and we must learn the lessons of the 2 edsas. that the fight doesn’t finish with the marching. it actually starts the moment the newly installed leaders sit in office. starting with going after the crooks that plundered the treasury. lining them all up and shooting them in luneta. extraditing the ones who got away, or if we can’t extradite them, sending assassination squads ala israel to kill those pricks off one by one. then we can begin the process of strengthening our institutions. seperating the comelec, civil service, the courts, the afp and pnp, and decs/ched from the executive’s clutches. the appointing power of the president should be diluted. it may be costly but plebiscites are the only way to go for a truly representative democracy. let the president submit the list, and let the electorate appoint from the list.
isn’t it logical that if we hate GMA (and her minions) and we also hate the opposition that snap elections are the only way to rid us of both of them? and the people have to be smarter. we have to make sure all elective positions are contested by people with unimpeachable integrity. it’s not too hard to find them. what’s hard is convincing them to run.
tonio on Wed, 20th Feb 2008 3:26 pm
mita:
and there is the heart of the matter surrounding the events of the day. the people are still gripped by the fear of “what next. or more precisely, “who next”.
do you mean to say that there is no one in this country of millions that is qualified to lead it?
or is it really a question of what people want? do they want real change? or do they just want another oligarch? one who that can be quietly tolerated so long as he gives in to populist sentiment?
a choice is being set forth before the people.
my question is: are the people ready to go all the way this time? to let go of the tantrums, the idiocy, the theatrics? to think with a clear conscience rather than act out of misguided emotion?
the way to real change is a hard one though. as with all changes that involve growing up.
cvj on Wed, 20th Feb 2008 3:34 pm
Mita, just to clarify, i am not calling for Arroyo to step down because of EDSA Dos. I am calling for her to step down because of Hello Garci and what came after it. Regarding your marriage analogy, actually it’s only here in the Philippines (and perhaps Chile) where divorce is illegal. We’re still backward in that sense.
Given all that has happened, we are well past the “you better be good or else…” stage when it comes to Gloria. Even Bong Austero arrived at a conclusion that they are beyond redemption.
After GMA, we should keep the momentum and not let our guard down. It’s like training a dog. We keep at it until the government learns to fear the people. Then it would be easier for those who come after us.
Madonna on Wed, 20th Feb 2008 3:39 pm
Mita,
Yes, I presume I am getting ahead. Lol, that has been my problem always! But that’s just how I see it, analysing the past and our situation right now and where it may be headed. An impeachment is a probability once the public sees that the Ombudsaman and the DOJ will only take the people for a ride, meaning if the the deliberations will only be a for a show and then we may see a tilt in the balance of power in Congress — seeing that Gloria may no longer in office soon, etc.
Let’s see. Let us examine how Congress voted when that uber trapo JDV was ousted — 35 voted for him to be retained, and a similar number voted to abstain. That is 70 votes all in all, almost sufficient to pass an impeachment complaint. With public pressure that number could increase, and you cannot pinpoint how FVR’s Lakas diehards would go assuming more damning revelations get out. Of course the impeachment complaint has to be an airtight case, and the filers have to be smart this time — i.e. target first the Committee of Justice. The thing is to play smart and maximize opportunities for winning. Why play if you cannot play to win — winning is not about ousting Gloria, it is seeking a resolution to the crisis.
I am all for the exercise of having an investigation right now with Ombudsman and the DOJ because right now the administration is on a defensive position with Lozada’s revelations, meaning the ball is in their court to prove the accusations otherwise. I say also just fine with apparently the current moves of the administration at combating corruption. Just saying, we are giving the administration of the doubt but we are not going to be taken for a ride again.
I am also against extra constitutional means to remove GMA from power and that has always been my stand since 2005. And sorry to those who like Trillanes, I don’t like him one bit. I was a vociferous EDSA Dos veteran and acknowledge that there are lessons to be learned there. Edsa Dos, like Edsa Uno was again much more the handiwork of the elite and powerful vested interests such as the Catholic Church. Any political exercise that we must do should be for the long term welfare of our society and must result in deep and lasting change and not just the removal of a President. My stand is that an impeachment will resolve the opposing views on fairness and legality. It’s a win-win situation and both sides would work hard to win the public’s judgement.
If we wait for 2010 out of fear, then we are going to lose it the fight, Mita. GMA and her regime and fundamentally the power structure that prop her up must be held accountable for their crimes and not go scot-free. Fyi, I am not a supporter of the opposition politicians and I view in contempt the likes of Lacson, Madrigal, etc.
If we say that we are for constitutional means, then why say that Noli de Castro is an unpalatable successor. I say let him take over if indeed GMA is proven guilty in an impeachment court.
Bert on Wed, 20th Feb 2008 4:31 pm
“bert, the hate-gloria people think they are the only ones that inhabit this world. this is not the first time we’ve been discounted here. btw, i support gma as my president. but i cannot be her friend because, while i know her public persona, she doesn’t know me, as she doesn’t know most of the people here, if there’s any.”
No offense meant, Anthony. Just want to say it’s not true that the president has no friend. For one, she has the support of vast majority of congressmen and local officials. And that’s no pun either.
anthony scalia on Wed, 20th Feb 2008 5:47 pm
JMCastro, Zel
GFIs (government financial institutions) are not covered by the salary standardization law, so they pay much much bigger wages compared to other government bodies
anthony scalia on Wed, 20th Feb 2008 6:29 pm
cvj,
“Anthony, both per capita gdp and average income per family are measures of income. As such, they are primarily quantitative, not qualitative indicators. I understand that they don’t measure the same things (e.g. corporate income is not measured in the latter and ofw income is not included in the former) but it is highly irregular that one increases and the other decreases over a span of a decade (1997 to 2006). Either average family income is being understated or per capita GDP is being overstated”
irregular but not impossible. besides, ikaw lang ata ang nagi-insist na there must be a correlation between GDP and family income, basta may maibato lang kay gloria. GDP measures economic activity more than anything
ayaw mo nun, it will support the view that GDP doesn’t measure quality of life, which is what you really want to shout from the mountaintops (your way of telling gloria ‘take that!’)
if it can be understated, family income can also be overstated
how can you overstate per capita GDP, eh it is just GDP divided by the population
anthony scalia on Wed, 20th Feb 2008 6:33 pm
Bert,
2/20/08 4:31 pm
hindi ako ang nag-post nun. pero even if i did, no offense taken
The Ca t on Wed, 20th Feb 2008 7:01 pm
Correction Manolo. From the link that you’ve given, 39 per cent comes from the combination of the population of Southern Tagalog and Central Luzon.
Southern Tagalog or Region 4 had the most number of inhabitants at 11.8 million as of 2000, higher than 9.9 million in Metro Manila and 8 million in Central Luzon. The combined population of these three regions made up for around 39 percent of the country’s total population.
Metromanila which consists of 13 municipalities and cities could not accommodate 32 million or 39 per cent of the est. 80 million.
cvj on Wed, 20th Feb 2008 7:38 pm
Manolo, another correction in defense of James. In your link it says that Manila has 1.58 million residents which comes to around 2% of the Philippine population. So when James says “Imperial Manila” i think he really means Manila proper (and not Quezon City or Mandaluyong for example).
cvj on Wed, 20th Feb 2008 7:52 pm
Hindi lang ako ang ‘nagi-insist’. Pati na ang mga dating pinuno ng NEDA na si Cielito Habito, Felipe Medalla at Solita Monsod.
http://www.cvjugo.blogspot.com/2008/01/tale-of-two-statistics-family-income.html
Walang kinalaman ang ayaw o gusto ko. Pareho silang quantitative measures of income. Iba nga lang ang mga sangkap na bumubuo ng dalawang sukat na ito.
Mita on Wed, 20th Feb 2008 8:34 pm
okay. maybe i’m dumb to still believe in the inherent goodness of man…but here goes…
I don’t see GMA staying beyond 2010. Every president thought about their legacy to the nation and that doesn’t include following in the footsteps of Marcos. And because of this, and also because she has to leave a good name to her politically-inclined sons, she will clean up, open up the administration and push the country forward economically.
if an impeachment can be passed through the lower house – fine, I’m looking forward to it. gloria resign won’t work because it has to have some teeth to have the support of the majority, not to mention the military – without those two elements, she stays till 2010.
the only way to redeem our country is through education of the electorate…not just the adults but the next generation.
rego on Wed, 20th Feb 2008 9:39 pm
“we can prevent the same dogs replacing the old ones by holding a snap election now. that’s always been the logical remedy. wipe the slate clean. and we must learn the lessons of the 2 edsas.”
Im, not open to snap election. Just liek peopel power this can set a bad precedt too. Mamaya konti scandal involving the president peopel will threaten go to streets again calling for snap election.
UP n student on Wed, 20th Feb 2008 9:54 pm
Kung parliamentary na ang Pilipinas, hindi na kailangan ang snap election by the people — vote of “no confidence” by the honorable members of parliament na lang ang kailangan. A motion of no confidence is a parliamentary motion traditionally put before a parliament by the opposition in the hope of defeating or embarrassing a government.
Ngayon, to prevent crises of the state by ensuring that whoever is head of government has enough support to govern, siguro kailangan kopyahin ng Pinas-parliamentary ay ang mother-country Spain which use “Construction Motion of No Confidence”. In Spain (also Israel and Germany), a vote of No Confidence requires that the opposition, on the same ballot, propose a candidate of their own whom they want to be appointed as successor by the respective head of state.
mang_kiko on Wed, 20th Feb 2008 10:12 pm
bencard, ang akala ko dito, si Lozada ay testigo lamang o witness sa kaso, siya ay hindi nag-akusa. Hindi pa inakusa sina FG at si Abalos. Ang alam ko ang Senate hearing ay factfinding lamang para kuno in aid of legislation. ang ma-ari lang mag-akusa kina Abalos, FG at kay Lozada mismo dahil sila manga opisyales sa Gobeyerno ay ang Ombudsman nga kaklase ni FG. iyan ata ang patakaran sa Filipinas..baka ang sa iyo sa Amerika. Ulit is Lozada hindi nag akusa, siya pa ay testigo lamang, pareho rin ni Mr. Neri, si Mr. Abalos testigo rin sa Senate hearing kasi ang Senate Hearing hindi Trial Court ata. siguro iyon ata ang responsibiladad nang senado.
justice league on Wed, 20th Feb 2008 10:54 pm
UPN
Based on the proposed Charter revisions; they actually did.
One of the premises of that is that its easier to be united against someone you don’t want than to be united on someone you do want. Or words to that effect; can’t exactly remember the exact words but thats basically it.
On it alone; it has its merits but the combination with the other recommedations would totally wipe away what they explained to be the benefits of a parliamentary government.
Madonna on Wed, 20th Feb 2008 11:38 pm
“I don’t see GMA staying beyond 2010. Every president thought about their legacy to the nation and that doesn’t include following in the footsteps of Marcos. And because of this, and also because she has to leave a good name to her politically-inclined sons, she will clean up, open up the administration and push the country forward economically.” — Mita
We have to go by objective indicators. GMA from her track record has not been known to “clean up”. She always plays the “populist card” but she is no democrat. Contrast with FVR, who was a military man, but was shown to be a true democrat during his presidency. GMA meanwhile has consistently shown that she is oblivious to the will of the people. She has lied, evaded, and obstructed the path of justice and truth. After Hello Garci or Joc-Joc Bolante, Jose Pidal, she and her family have only became more and more rapacious — indicators that they would exploit every situation just because they could. And she is a very pragmatic politician who uses power at all costs. With all the moves to amend the Constitution which will surely come up again — she could find a way not to stay in power per se but so as to evade being made accountable and allow her to forge deals with other politicians along the way.
Re: her wanting to leave a “legacy”. In previous threads, I have argued that her so called “economic triumphs” are not her work — our economy has grown mainly due to OFW remittances resulting in a consumption-driven growth, and meanwhile our domestic economy remained stunted, except for the BPO sector. We have an economy which has grown inspite of, not because of her policies. Add to that she has opportunistically exploited the global job environment and allowed brain drain to continue unabated, which resulted in the worsening migratory pattern of the middle class – and to think she says we aim to become a first world country. Que barbaridad! How will that happen when the middle class have all but left and who would remain in the country but the rapacious elite and poverty stricken, powerless majority. I am sorry to say but as a leader she does not have a long-term vision of where we should go. We have given her 7 years, we have given her the benefit of the doubt and her time is up. She would have been really lucky if Lozada didn’t turn up.
And yet, I also hope that she will really show something, you know that maybe would all convince us that she should be allowed to finish her term. It is always wise to give someone the benefit of the doubt.
anthony scalia on Thu, 21st Feb 2008 12:02 am
cvj,
“Hindi lang ako ang ‘nagi-insist’. Pati na ang mga dating pinuno ng NEDA na si Cielito Habito, Felipe Medalla at Solita Monsod”
so where do you attribute the decrease in the purchasing power of families? to Hello Garci? to gloria’s economic mismanagement? to the NBN-ZTE deal? Solita Monsod provides the explanation in the same column you cited –
“Walang kinalaman ang ayaw o gusto ko. Pareho silang quantitative measures of income. Iba nga lang ang mga sangkap na bumubuo ng dalawang sukat na ito”
oo nga quantitative nga. don’t ever say that walang kinalaman ang ayaw o gusto mo. why are you citing them? ano ang gusto mo at you are citing them? di ba to discredit gloria, kahit na in the process you’re denying the output of hard-working Pinoys here
uulitin ko, GDP measures economic activity, not spending power of the people. i don’t see a disconnect between a supposed increase in per capita GDP and the FIES results. as one blogger here said
madali lang naman i-measure ang per capita GDP di ba? GDP divided by the population
ill say it again, i refer to GDP as a measure of economic activity, not standard of living, and definitely not purchasing power of families
Silent Waters on Thu, 21st Feb 2008 12:32 am
I believe CVJ is again advocating confiscation because of the phrase below….
“Sorry, the oligarchs can go but their capital cannot (or at least should not) above was meant for Tonio.”
Let’s try to see if we can get CVJ’s wealth first///mahilig din naman siya sa confiscation…
Silent Waters on Thu, 21st Feb 2008 12:45 am
Anthony
Wala ka nang magagawa…kapag natinta ng kulay ang glasses, kahit anong linis mo, yun kulay ng tinta pa rin ang nandiyan. Di talaga makuha na GDP is a measure of economic activity and not a measure of standard of living…to think all the while akala ko pa naman may PhD sa Economics at cite ng cite ng mga economic indicators, eh ganun kasimple lang na measurement, di naman pala naintindihan….
cvj on Thu, 21st Feb 2008 1:28 am
Anthony, in that portion you quoted, Monsod was simply explaining how it could be that average family income decreased. Later in that article, she then expresses her puzzlement on why the per capita GDP indicates otherwise.
The level of economic activity you refer to that is being measured by GDP is expressed as National Income. For example, in a hypothetical country whose economy consists of a single lechon-manok stall operated by only one person (who raises his own chickens, roasts and sells the chicken), you measure the level of economic activity by the amount of sales of that lechon-manok stall (i.e. sales = lechon-manok sold x price per lechon-manok). The GDP per capita in this case is total lechon-manok sales of that single person in that stall. Since he is a single person belonging to one family, per capita GDP will be equal to average family income. I hope the above example clarifies for you the similarities between per capita GDP and average family income.
Of course, an economy consists of more than a single business. In UPn’s example of the highways in Basilan, C5 and flyovers, the expenditures are reflected in GDP by adding up the income of the contractors, engineers and laborers (assuming they are local residents) and revenue of those who sold the raw materials (e.g. cement, steel beams assuming its locally produced). If the firm that sells the cement is a corporation (or a partnership), then its profits (the retained earnings portion) are not reflected in family income – only as business income.
Therefore, for the divergence in per Capita GDP and average family income to occur, it should imply that most of the per capita GDP growth over the decade is because of increases in business (i.e. corporate and partnerships) income large enough to compensate for the decrease in personal income. That’s a highly unlikely scenario.
Pro GMA on Thu, 21st Feb 2008 2:20 am
mabuhay parin Si Ate GLO!!!!
Kahit ano pa gawin niyo siya parin ang pinakamatalinong presidente since Marcos.
Bencard on Thu, 21st Feb 2008 6:18 am
mang isko, testigo nga si lozada pero and kanyang testimonya ay nagpaparatang ng kriminalidad, paris ng kidnapping, bribery, perjury at iba pa laban sa ibat-ibang tao. dapat lang patotohanan niya and kanyang sinasabi lalo pa’t tila kumbinsido na ang nakararami dito at mga senadores, e aligasyon pa lamang yan ni lozada. ano ba naman kung magpasailalim siya sa LDT kung talagang nagsasabi siya ng tutoo? kung magkakaroon ng caso ito sa hukuman ay dahil sa kaniyang pagbibintang. tila ang tawag po diyan ay “complaining witness” na ang testimonya ang pagbabasehan ng casong isasampa ng ombudsman sa korte.
anthony scalia on Thu, 21st Feb 2008 9:42 am
cvj,
that’s not the whole picture my friend. she said that even though the economic bibingka pie got bigger, average family income decreased, because the number of individual slices of this pie increased. The rise in number of slices is faster than the increase in size of the pie.
then from there she was puzzled why despite the decrease, there’s a rise in per capita GDP figures.
irregular? could be, but not impossible
sorry but it didn’t clarify one bit. sablay pa nga
the sales is GDP. sales is the final output. per capita GDP is the sales divided by the number of members of his family, including the owner-operator. per capita GDP is the supposed economic output of each family member.
income is not a component of GDP. what GDP measures is the final output that resulted from work paid by income.
An employed IT consultant bills and collects US$500,000 for services rendered in a year. But he is paid only US$75,000 a year. The US$500T is the GDP
“Of course, an economy consists of more than a single business. In UPn’s example of the highways in Basilan, C5 and flyovers, the expenditures are reflected in GDP by adding up the income of the contractors, engineers and laborers (assuming they are local residents) and revenue of those who sold the raw materials (e.g. cement, steel beams assuming its locally produced). If the firm that sells the cement is a corporation (or a partnership), then its profits (the retained earnings portion) are not reflected in family income – only as business income.
Therefore, for the divergence in per Capita GDP and average family income to occur, it should imply that most of the per capita GDP growth over the decade is because of increases in business (i.e. corporate and partnerships) income large enough to compensate for the decrease in personal income. That’s a highly unlikely scenario.”
iho, ang components of GDP ay public and private investments, consumer spending at exports. why are you insisting on income’s inclusion in GDP? already included in the final product is the compensation given to the producer/provider of the goods/services.
saka iho, napapalayo na tayo sa talakayan natin. I started the discussion with the use of GDP as measurement of economic activity, without any mention of family spending or standard of living.
uulitin ko again – never did i ever mention that GDP is a measure of quality of living or spending power
my goodness, we’re just looking at a figure! That figure doesn’t even say how the economic activity is dispersed/scattered. Its possible to have a high GDP and all of it is produced in Metro Manila.
China’s per capita GDP is around US$2,500, yet how come 900 million Chinese live in absolute poverty? But that ‘disconnect’ does not detract from China being an economic wonder
again, for the nth time – GDP measures the final output. the income paid to produce that final output is already included in, and taken from, such final output. by itself, GDP is silent on spending power/standard of living
anthony scalia on Thu, 21st Feb 2008 9:55 am
Silent Waters,
“Wala ka nang magagawa…kapag natinta ng kulay ang glasses, kahit anong linis mo, yun kulay ng tinta pa rin ang nandiyan. Di talaga makuha na GDP is a measure of economic activity and not a measure of standard of living…to think all the while akala ko pa naman may PhD sa Economics at cite ng cite ng mga economic indicators, eh ganun kasimple lang na measurement, di naman pala naintindihan….”
oo nga eh. frustrating lang kasi.
sa economic activity lang naman magkakaroon ng jobs.
Bencard on Thu, 21st Feb 2008 10:45 am
miq3 & jeg, i didn’t see “harapan” but if you were referring to lozada’s challenge to take the LDT with abalos, i find it ridiculously evasive and nonsensical excuse. lozada was the one who implicated abalos of bribery or corruption, why should the latter have to prove he’s innocent? lozada should be advised by his counsel that he just couldn’t go around gossiping about people without any basis in fact, and set a condition for substantiating what he had asserted. abalos has a constitutional right not to do anything about the accusation which could lead to self-incrimination. lozada doesn’t have the same right as the accuser.
if lozada can prove he’s telling the truth, nothing abalos could say or do will make it untrue.
cvj on Thu, 21st Feb 2008 11:07 am
I did mention that the example i used is that of “a hypothetical country whose economy consists of a single lechon-manok stall operated by only one person (who raises his own chickens, roasts and sells the chicken)“. In this manner Total GDP = per capita GDP because in that example, there is only one person (aka ‘capita’) operating that lechon-manok business.
Income is a component of GDP, in fact one way of computing GDP is via the “Income Approach” (already mentioned by someone previously in this blog) as follows:
GDP = compensation of employees + depreciation + indirect taxes – subsidies + net operating profits
You can refer to the NSCB website to confirm:
http://www.nscb.gov.ph/technotes/sna/sna_tech_gdp.asp
For your example, let’s give hypothetical numbers to be clear:
Total Fees = 500,000
less:
IT Consultant salary= 75,000 (included in both GDP & family income)
Management salary = 100,000 (included in both GDP & family income)
Other staff salary = 125,000 (included in both GDP & family income)
Equals:
Net Income (Profit)=200,000 (included only in GDP assuming the firm is a Corporation or Partnership)
In the above example, GDP will be 500,000 while Total Family income will bet 300,000. If we project this example to what has been happening in our case where GDP per capita is increasing but average family income is decreasing, that means that it is only the ‘Profit’ portion that has been growing for the past decade. That would be highly irregular and unrealistic.
Silent Waters on Thu, 21st Feb 2008 11:14 am
Anthony
You seem like a sensible guy. WOuld certainly like to have further discussions with you without these let’s have their head rolled crowd drowning the discussion. I wonder how I can set it up so that we don’t reveal our email addresses or cel numbers here.
bernardocarpio on Thu, 21st Feb 2008 12:00 pm
Anthony,
| really learn from you keep it up.
Jeg on Thu, 21st Feb 2008 12:43 pm
lozada should be advised by his counsel that he just couldn’t go around gossiping about people without any basis in fact, and set a condition for substantiating what he had asserted. abalos has a constitutional right not to do anything about the accusation which could lead to self-incrimination. lozada doesn’t have the same right as the accuser.
Yes, except that he didnt ‘go around gossiping’. He testified under oath. I defer to your legal opinion that Abalos doesnt have to take the LDT. But on the strictly non-legal ‘image’ thing. Abalos looked like a borjer-eating wimp.
(By the way, Bencard, the reference to borjer is also from Harapan. Abalos pronounces burger as borjer.)
Zel on Thu, 21st Feb 2008 1:32 pm
“components of GDP ay public and private investments, consumer spending at exports” – Anthony
——-
Anthony,
Tanong ko lang kung may figures ka ba breakdown ng GDP based on the components you cited? Alin ang pinakamalaki in terms of percentage? I was just thinking baka naman public investments lang ang nagpa-boom dyan considering na in billions of dollars ang inuutang natin from China alone to fund our projects here?
I am not an economist pero from the term investment, dapat kumita yan. Kung private investment, medyo safe yan kasi gustong kumita ng private businesses, pero kung public investment and pinakamalaki dyan at alam natin kung gaano ka unsound at corrupted ang mga yan, parang ipipirito tayo sa sarili nating mantika when the time to pay these loans come.
As I said di ako ekonomista pero gusto ko maintindihan ang issue na ito. I am so open to corrections and insights.
grd on Thu, 21st Feb 2008 2:44 pm
at ikaw? living comfortably somewhere safe while ranting about people’s inaction? that’s the height of hypocfisy.
no more excuses just admit the mistake of edsa dos. you have the nerve to own up the credit for installing Gloria, you should have the decency to admit your mistakes too in creating that “monsterâ€. at huwag mo ng idamay ang sisi sa lahat ng tao dahil sa kapalpakang nagawa nyo. stop associating people’s action w/ people power. youre too presumptuous in saying the inaction of the middle and upper class now is due to the fear of edsa 3. if people would want to bring down Gloria, nothing can stop them certainly NOT DUE TO FEAR. they will not be deterred by anything even if threatened with tanks or a hail of bullets. it is very clear that majority of the people now are too wary of too much politicking on both sides and will not be hoodwinked easily in joining another people power uprising (instigated by people with vested interests) that will only bring more harm on this country. it’s not about the double standard, it’s about the lessons learned.
you and your ilk just can’t accept the fact that Glroria has been continuously outsmarting all of you. after 3 years of failed attempts to oust her, majority of the people have come to the realization that the only chance to get rid of this Lucky Bitch is to wait for 2010 and that is when her term expires… but your big egos just can’t accept it.
grd on Thu, 21st Feb 2008 3:27 pm
oh really? what about below?
wow. ibinoto mo pa pala. lakas ng messianic complex mo. kasama ka pala sa nagluklok kay Gloria sa trono. ang galing mo. ano ba tawag doon, kingmaker? with your claim above and strongly taking it by heart, you can actually end this all and help this nation move forward. how? instead of ranting here without accomplishing anything, why don’t you and your brother ramrod (who claimed also to be instrumental in ousting erap) just strap bombs on your bodies and blow-up that Lucky Bitch? with your guts I have no doubt you can do it. people would really love and appreciate your great sacrifice.
pero ika nga ni gen lim, “dissent without action is consentâ€. so, blogging with your anti-gloria rants will not qualify you as patriots while others here with different views as paid hacks. pare-pareho lang tayo nagpapalitan ng kuro-kuro dito.
sabi mo nga sa isang blogger:
anthony scalia on Thu, 21st Feb 2008 4:14 pm
Zel,
thats all i can remember from my Econ 11 and Econ 101. as far as i know, wala nang iba pang component ang GDP.
teka, bago magkalihis-lihis ang discussion natin, let me define some terms:
GDP – measurement of all goods and services made within a country within a year. Key words – final output/product. By itself, it does not measure standard of living, purchasing power, income
now, on with our mini-discussion:
“Tanong ko lang kung may figures ka ba breakdown ng GDP based on the components you cited? Alin ang pinakamalaki in terms of percentage?”
if you are asking about the specific breakdown of the official 2007 GDP, i dont have any.
“I was just thinking baka naman public investments lang ang nagpa-boom dyan considering na in billions of dollars ang inuutang natin from China alone to fund our projects here?”
thats possible
“I am not an economist pero from the term investment, dapat kumita yan. Kung private investment, medyo safe yan kasi gustong kumita ng private businesses, pero kung public investment and pinakamalaki dyan at alam natin kung gaano ka unsound at corrupted ang mga yan, parang ipipirito tayo sa sarili nating mantika when the time to pay these loans come.”
it depends on the ‘public investment’. infrastructure can be a public investment. i don’t know how to quantify the ‘revenues’ coming from constructed bridges, farm-to-market roads, flyovers, highways. Kapag seaports and airports (not on BOT), yan pwedeng i-quantify
i am not familiar with the NBN system, if it pushes through, how it can make money
ang hirap kasi sa ibang bloggers dito, ayaw nilang magpa-pogi si gloria sa 2007 GDP figure, kay ganun na lang ang pag-undermine nila dito.
eh in all my posts wherein i mentioned GDP, i never used it to measure standard of living, purchasing power. GDP is all and purely about economic activity, output.
it is also possible na direct investments are made here but do not result in job creation. kasama din sa GDP yan
Madonna on Thu, 21st Feb 2008 4:27 pm
you and your ilk just can’t accept the fact that Glroria has been continuously outsmarting all of you. after 3 years of failed attempts to oust her, majority of the people have come to the realization that the only chance to get rid of this Lucky Bitch is to wait for 2010 and that is when her term expires… — grd
grd,
Opps grd, now that Lozada came around, the Achilles heel of Ate Glo is now all but showing. And her enemies are all throwing spears at it. We know that she is very smart, but let’s see, how smart she really is with this new storm. I agree, the opposition has been really stupid, mostly because it was concerned on only bringing her down. But I don’t subscribe to that view because we do not have to take her out per se but we have to show that we are serious about making our leaders accountable for their policies and wrongdoing, for us and the next generation of Filipinos. Of course, this goes with the primary consideration that the mistake of Edsa Dos will not be repeated.
Just a fact and correction, as per surveys since 2005 up to now, majority of the people want her out. The only dissenting views are on how she would have to go. GMA has srewdly and correctly read the data that majority of the citizens do not have the mobilizing power to make her accountable — that is because the middle class, that sector that tips the game has been silent on what to do with her. This is no longer true after Lozada came out –not yet the whole of middle class, but the mobilization has begun, with students, professionals coming out with their statements on the crisis recently. These groups are the middle of the middle class (not the religious, business or NGOs) and we now clearly seeing a genuine movement. When the very middle moves, we are going to see a tipping of the balance of power.
Zel on Thu, 21st Feb 2008 4:44 pm
anthony,
Thanks for the answers. I think its good to understand some technical terms, the ins and outs of basic economics.
You said its possible that public investments are keeping the GDP numbers up, so its possible that the increase in GDP is in a way artificially boosted. I mean we do not have the facts so we couldn’t say for sure, but it is enough I guess to say that it is a possibility.
You also said that revenues from public infrastructure would be difficult to quantify. I have a question on this, if let us say a project is approved, lets have the northrail and southrail phase 1 as an example, is the fund for this project reflected as part of GDP even if the project is not yet physically completed and is actually rusting away in Calamba?
Also, is the alleged $130M commission that is incorporated in the price of the NBN-ZTE contract, had it not been cancelled, also be a part of the public investment of the GDP when in actuality that portion of the investment will never earn the country a single centavo in revenues?
I am really trying to understand so I can put into context the press releases that are issued by Malacanang. I am nervous about the loans we get to “invest” on our local projects. If a large portion of the GDP is actually public investment then we are really going to be in deep shit for quite a long time.
anthony scalia on Thu, 21st Feb 2008 4:49 pm
cvj,
haay naku.
this statement of mine
is my direct comment to your favorite ‘lechon manok’ example of computing GDP
in your example – mali. its wrong to equate sales (GDP) to per capita GDP counting only the owner. any computation of per capita includes all people, including those who never actually participated in the final output. kaya nga in my example, included ang lahat ng family members ng owner operator in computing GDP per capita.
you’re assuming that only the people who actually produced the goods or services should be computed for per capita GDP. wrong.
are you cocksure on your reliance on that formula? does that formula ever say anything on purchasing power of family income? it does not!
first, you’re wrong in saying only the net profit of US$200,000 is included in GDP. remember, GDP measures the final output of goods or services. The services produced was worth US$500,000. Not US$200,000
its gross domestic product not net domestic product
aren’t you noticing? you are bringing in another measurement! GDP by itself does not measure family income! even using your highly touted formula! family income is never a component!
in the formula you enthusiastically cited, theres no mention of family income! the income is still connected to the output of goods or services! so in the end, output pa rin ang measured!
its never unrealistic nor irregular! as i was saying for the NTH time, GDP only measures economic activity, the output! never family income! if you will just hold in abeyance family income whenever GDP is discussed, you will be enlightened.
look, if you want to harp on the continuing decrease of purchasing power of families as per the latest FIES, then focus on that! if you want to argue that purhasing power is the true test of ‘gumagandang ekonomiya’ you won’t hear a rebuttal from me
Income approach nga, pero still the final result is the output of goods and services pa rin!
ano ba talaga kuya?!?
anthony scalia on Thu, 21st Feb 2008 5:20 pm
Zel,
“You said its possible that public investments are keeping the GDP numbers up, so its possible that the increase in GDP is in a way artificially boosted. I mean we do not have the facts so we couldn’t say for sure, but it is enough I guess to say that it is a possibility.”
yes. thats the result of ‘pump priming the economy’. not really artificially boosted, but there can be times that the intention is an artificial boost
im not sure if investments in the stock market is included in GDP. because investing in the stock market can also be ‘pump priming’. The SSS and GSIS have really huge investible funds
“You also said that revenues from public infrastructure would be difficult to quantify. I have a question on this, if let us say a project is approved, lets have the northrail and southrail phase 1 as an example, is the fund for this project reflected as part of GDP even if the project is not yet physically completed and is actually rusting away in Calamba?”
that i don’t know.
iho, the two rails are not yet operational, so no income can be derived from it yet, much less quantify it
“Also, is the alleged $130M commission that is incorporated in the price of the NBN-ZTE contract, had it not been cancelled, also be a part of the public investment of the GDP when in actuality that portion of the investment will never earn the country a single centavo in revenues?”
that i don’t know. since the kickbacks are given in one lump sum at the start, siguro. i don’t know.
“I am really trying to understand so I can put into context the press releases that are issued by Malacanang. I am nervous about the loans we get to “invest†on our local projects. If a large portion of the GDP is actually public investment then we are really going to be in deep shit for quite a long time.”
true. pero as far as i know, many foreign loans for public infrastructure are implemented by contractors chosen by the lenders. kaya sana, quality ang output, yung kickbacks na lang ang downside.
ang mahirap kung substandard quality na ang infrastructure, malaki pa ang kickbacks!
anthony scalia on Thu, 21st Feb 2008 5:30 pm
Madonna,
specifically that means majority of 1,200 people want her out
cvj on Thu, 21st Feb 2008 6:51 pm
In my example, i posited an economy with only one lechon-manok stall and one person who, if i may repeat again, who raises his own chickens, roasts and sells the chicken. That is to simplify so that Total GDP = per capita GDP. To emphasize the givens:
one country = one lechon manok stall = one person
therefore…
Total GDP divided by one person = per capita GDP
…as far as my particular example is concerned.
We have the same understanding. Please re-read the portion you blockquoted, particularly the part where i said, n the above example, GDP will be 500,000 while Total Family income will bet 300,000. The 200,000 USD, on the other hand, is the portion of the GDP that is not reflected in personal income so will not show up in average family income.
Assuming the 1,200 is a nationwide random sample that is representative of the total population, then the findings reflect the sentiments of the 85 million Filipinos. That’s an established part of Statistics.
cvj on Thu, 21st Feb 2008 7:00 pm
grd, i think you forgot to take your anger management medication.
cvj on Thu, 21st Feb 2008 7:14 pm
Zel, if i may…
It is not reflected in the GDP unless the amount is spent. Also, all components that are imported (e.g. trains) are not part of GDP.
If Abalos spent all of his commission within the Philippines, then it becomes part of GDP (under personal consumption expenditure) on the year it was spent. If he deposits the amount in a bank (or buries it), then it does not become part of GDP.
cvj on Thu, 21st Feb 2008 8:36 pm
Just a further clarification, anything Abalos spends on imported goods will have a zero effect on GDP. So that means that if he imports an SUV worth 200,000 USD, then it is both added to ‘personal consumption expenditure’ and then deducted as ‘imports’. Also, anything that Abalos spends on trips overseas will not be part of GDP.
TheColdKing on Thu, 21st Feb 2008 9:19 pm
Kung may nuclear bomb lang ako, payag akong maging suicide bomber para burahin na sa mundo ang buong administrasyon at ang mga alipin at alipores nito…
Madonna on Thu, 21st Feb 2008 9:43 pm
Anthony,
“specifically that means majority of 1,200 people want her out”
Which statistically means that majority (50 plus percent)of Filipinos want her out. This has been consistently the case since 2005 when Hello Garci came out — or don’t you find the data significant?
I don’t want to debate about things which are a matter of perception or belief — and evidently at least from the above comment you don’t believe in surveys and I do — for me they are legitimate and efficient measurements of public opinion. And I consider myself more or less a democrat, that’s why I consider surveys important when it comes to politics. But suit yourself, we all have our own take on issues.
anthony scalia on Thu, 21st Feb 2008 9:47 pm
cvj,
wrong pa rin. sablay again.why are you insisting on one country = one lechon manok stall = one person? its obvious that you are putting into GDP metrics for FIES
sabi mo
“We have the same understanding. Please re-read the portion you blockquoted, particularly the part where i said, n the above example, GDP will be 500,000 while Total Family income will bet 300,000. The 200,000 USD, on the other hand, is the portion of the GDP that is not reflected in personal income so will not show up in average family income.”
ito ang sinabi mo
as clear as the sun – you included only the net income of 200T in GDP
for the nth time, why are you insisting that the 200T be included in family income? eh di nga component ang family income in the formula you cited!
no sir we don’t have the same understanding. you keep on insisting that family income is a component of GDP. i don’t.
Stress on the words “assuming”, “random”, “Statistics”
Yes, as far as statistics is concerned, thats an established part. No arguments with that.
But to say that its representative of 85M……..basta may maipukol lang kay gloria
Madonna on Thu, 21st Feb 2008 9:59 pm
“basta may maipukol lang kay gloria”
No, that’s not the case. Sorry.
“But to say that its representative of 85M”
It is representative of 85M! Hello?
cvj on Thu, 21st Feb 2008 9:59 pm
How can it be wrong if that hypothetical example conforms to all the requirements of what GDP is? That example is constructed to illustrate the areas in which per capita GDP and income per family are similar.
That sentence “included only in GDP assuming the firm is a Corporation or Partnership” means the opposite of how you understand it. It means that the 200K is included in GDP (which totals 500K) but excluded from family income (because it is business income). Please, read the above again.
There is such a scientific field called Statistics which uses random sampling find out the characteristics of a given population. That field is more than 100 years old and is taught in school with applications in economics, medicine, manufacturing, biology and other fields. You can look it up.
anthony scalia on Thu, 21st Feb 2008 10:12 pm
Madonna,
“Which statistically means that majority (50 plus percent)of Filipinos want her out. This has been consistently the case since 2005 when Hello Garci came out — or don’t you find the data significant?”
stress on “statistically” milady. 50% of 1,200. yes, i don’t find the data significant. its a joke actually.
besides, the entire 85M can want gloria out, but she’s still seated. that alone isn’t enough to unseat her, legally that is
i dont have to remind you that popularity isnt a criteria for staying in Malacanang
“I don’t want to debate about things which are a matter of perception or belief — and evidently at least from the above comment you don’t believe in surveys and I do — for me they are legitimate and efficient measurements of public opinion. And I consider myself more or less a democrat, that’s why I consider surveys important when it comes to politics. But suit yourself, we all have our own take on issues.”
admit it – you dont want to debate about the reliability of surveys because deep inside you know that each political survey stands on razor-thin ice. surveys can also measure perception and belief
look i have no problem that surveys legitimately measure public opinion. its just that the opinion measured are those of the respondents only.
suit yourself also if you consider the surveys ‘representative’ of 85 M Pinoys.
and i’ll bet – you don’t have any idea how the questions of these surveys are phrased
Silent Waters on Thu, 21st Feb 2008 10:17 pm
Re: the statistics porblem…maybe the question is: how representative is the 1200 respondents. DId they ask these questions all over the whole archipelago or did they limit it to the Luzon area. SO it really depends on that. If it was the whole archipelago and the 1200 samples were actually proportionately distributed by either provinces and the subsectors within those provinces, then maniniwala ako sa survey….pero kung siyudad lang…medyo duda ako….unless sabihin niyong mga taga evil society na mang mang ang mga nasa rural area ….
Madonna on Thu, 21st Feb 2008 10:33 pm
Anthony,
“stress on “statistically†milady. 50% of 1,200. yes, i don’t find the data significant. its a joke actually.”
Sir, it’s a joke if you don’t consider the will of the people generally speaking.
“besides, the entire 85M can want gloria out, but she’s still seated. that alone isn’t enough to unseat her, legally that is”
So, admit it then you’re a “legal” guy like Bencard. You don’t consider justice and accountability as the primary issues here.
“i dont have to remind you that popularity isnt a criteria for staying in Malacanang”
Oh of course it isn’t the only criteria. The surveys were not a measure of popularity per se, they were measure of how trust, legitimacy and performance.
“admit it – you dont want to debate about the reliability of surveys because deep inside you know that each political survey stands on razor-thin ice. surveys can also measure perception and belief”
Not razor-thin if the results show consistent results. That’s why I say the data is significant, meaning come hell or high water in the past three years, the people still view GMA the same.
“look i have no problem that surveys legitimately measure public opinion. its just that the opinion measured are those of the respondents only.”
Oh my pray next time, the statistical ball hits you. But of course, you may conclude that you are representative of the minority opinion in the surveys, which of course is still legitimate.
“and i’ll bet – you don’t have any idea how the questions of these surveys are phrased”
sorry anthony, you lose in your bet, because I have more than an idea of how these questions are done. Validy and realibity are what legitimate surveys are all about. And no, I am not being a poseur here.
Madonna on Thu, 21st Feb 2008 10:41 pm
“Validy and realibity”
Sorry, it’s been a long day. That should read validity and reliability.
mang_kiko on Thu, 21st Feb 2008 10:56 pm
Ang Senate Hearing na ito, Trial ba ito o factfinding nang manga Senadores kong mayro-on talaga “kickback” sa kontrata?
kong ito as inquiry lamang, at ang manga testigos ay magbigay nang kanilang ka-alaman, o impormasyon, kahit isang tingi lamang, pag-ipon iponin iyon nang manga Senadores para mabuo nila ang katotohanan. Kaya dapat, bawat tao na “supetsado” na may koneksyon sa kalokohan ire, yong nakakobra man o hindi, magbigay nang kanilang testimonya, bahala na sila kong papayag mag LDT o kaya magsumpa lang sa pangalan nang kanilang manga Ina.
Bahala na rin kon paniwala-an ang kanilang testimonya o hindi, pero sa tingin nakalamang yata si Mang Lozada dito, kahit na nagisa lang siya, laban sa isang tambak na alipores nana Palasyo, kong hindi siya lamang, tinggan ninyo, pati yong 11 na ODA projects cancel na Naman..baka lumabas pa ang manga amoy tinakpan ka-AGAD, ang Tawag naman dyan PREEMPTION…ang galing manga abogados ni GMA.
Bencard on Fri, 22nd Feb 2008 1:16 am
jeg, i don’t have to tell you that an “oath” doesn’t necessarily make a statement true. that’s why we have the crime of perjury. some people just don’t know, or don’t care, about the sanctity and value of an oath.
mang kiko, wala sa paramihan ‘yan. kung nagsasabi ka ng tutuo, kahit isang libong anghel na magsabing iyo’y kasinungalingan ay hindi pa rin makapagbabago ng iyong katotohanan. ang sino mang naninira ng kapuwa ay dapa’t na magpasailalim sa masusing pagsusuri, kasam na and LDT.
UP n student on Fri, 22nd Feb 2008 1:24 am
Madonna: On surveys in the Philippines. There are only 3 or 4 firms, right? And how many dialects do they use?
The most important question for my interests — how much to conduct a survey of 1,000 respondents where I provide the population characteristics (e.g. (i) high-school and college-level only; (ii) 600 from NCR, then 100 each for Baguio, Davao, Cebu, Naga); (iii) cost of “piggyback” survey of 3 questions; (iv) cost for independent-survey of 12 question.
Bencard on Fri, 22nd Feb 2008 1:36 am
“so admit it then you are a ‘legal’ guy like bencard. you don’t consider justice and accountability as the primary issue.” madonna.
this is a big problem here. people like you have this mindset that legality, i.e. adherence to the rule of law, is not concerned with justice and accountability. i don’t know your education level but having been living in a democratic society, you must have a modicum of understanding of how the law and the legal system work. for a start, you should know that “justice” and “accountability can only be attained and enforced in this world through law. without law they are just empty words that have no value except, maybe, in the afterlife (if any). btw, an unjust, unreasonable law is void ab initio.
PTA on Fri, 22nd Feb 2008 2:05 am
“you should know that “justice†and “accountability can only be attained and enforced in this world through law.”
Isn’t this really dumb and arrogant, coming from one who claims to be a person of the law? Does his claim mean that parents and teachers for instance can’t enforce justice and accountability? wow!!!!!
Bencard on Fri, 22nd Feb 2008 2:23 am
tila yata lahat ng proyecto para sa ikauunlad ng bansa ay nakansela dahil sa malaking ingay ng mga taong ibat-iba ang motibo. haaay, naku! paano ba naman uusad ang ating bayan? bakit hindi ituloy ang mga proyekto sa halip na kanselahin, hulihin, isakdal at parusahan ang mga may sala at kunin ang lahat ng kinurakot. ang mga hakbang ng nbi, pulisya, fiskal, ombudsman, at mga korte sa mga kasong kurakot ay suriing mabuti at kung lumitaw na mayroon ngang katiwalian ay parusahan ang mga salarin, o hindi gumagampan ng kanilang tungkulin (hahit sino pa man), ng pinakamabigat na parusang ipinapataw ng batas.
Bencard on Fri, 22nd Feb 2008 2:45 am
pta, whoever you are. rebut what i say instead of calling it “dumb and arrogant”. even parents and teachers can only impose on children within limits prescribed by law. parents and teachers have no absolute power over children who, themselves, have rights too. they can be prosecuted and penalized for child abuse. they can set up their rules but those rules must conform to the law.
what if if, as a parent or teacher, a child disobeys you, i.e., ridicule your “justice and accountability”, can you put him to jail?
PTA on Fri, 22nd Feb 2008 2:52 am
bencard, if your children break the house rules like cleaning up their room, aren’t you dispensing justice and accountablity if because of their disobedience you send them to the corner? That’s what I do to my children, have I violated their rights just because I did not consult with the law or you first?
Bencard on Fri, 22nd Feb 2008 3:14 am
pta, your “house rules” are the law in your household, you are the lawgiver, the chief executive and the judge. what you are dispensing are “justice and accountability” according to your household law.
what i’m saying is, even your private house rules have to be consistent with the general law of society, or else, you could be penalized, e.g., if you imposed on your children the duty to steal a kilo of rice from the corner store at least once a day.
lakas_pinoy on Fri, 22nd Feb 2008 3:37 am
Anthony Scalia:
on surveys, “specifically that means majority of 1,200 people want her (Gloria) outâ€
Incidentally, this is NOT the way how survey firms (SWS and Pulse Asia) interpret the results. You fail to distinguish between a sample and a population. In your interpretation, the 1,200 is the population itself, which is wrong. It is only a sample, but a good one.
Let me say a little about it. As far as I know, these 2 firms follow some scientific procedures grounded, among other things, on the idea of “good†sampling technique (technically called probability sampling). This sample is a mirror or representative of a larger whole where it comes from.
If it were a bad sample, as you erroneously read it, one cannot say anything about the whole simply because it is bad. You can only say “majority of the 1,200 people want her out,†per your statement.
The point is, the 1,200 respondents Pulse Asia or SWS use are a sample, not the POPULATION itself. And it is not just a sample. It is, in fact, a good sample because it allows one to generalize unto the population with a fairly high degree of accuracy and minimal error.
Meaning, whatever finding is generated from the sample can be reasonably inferred as applicable to its parent population, usually with an error of 3-5% (for national samples, and somewhat bigger errors for regional ones) and confidence level of 95%.
Thus, the generalization: “About three in five Filipinos (59%) think a president should resign from office if she/he tolerates graft and corruption among government officials or is linked directly or indirectly to graft and corruption†is based on the sample finding of 59%. The probability that this finding is erroneous is 3 out of 100. (www.pulseasia.com.ph/pulseasia/story.asp?id=628).
lakas_pinoy on Fri, 22nd Feb 2008 3:45 am
Silent Waters, “the statistics porblem…maybe the question is: how representative is the 1200 respondents. DId they ask these questions all over the whole archipelago or did they limit it to the Luzon area. SO it really depends on that.”
Please visit the websites of Pulse Asia and Social Weather Stations for answers to your query.
http://www.pulseasia.com.ph/
ww.sws.org.ph/
I also just posted something above on the “representativeness” of the 1,200 sample.
btw, most of the staff behind these 2 firms are statisticians/academicians from UP.
Bencard on Fri, 22nd Feb 2008 4:04 am
lakas_pinoy, let me say something about surveys. while it’s true that legitimate surveys may reflect the mood of the people on a given time, it cannot, and should not be a basis for ousting a sitting president, or to undo his/her election. it cannot substitute for any of the reasons for involuntary removal of a president, i.e., impeachment, death or incapacity, and finishing his/her constitutional tenure.
public opinion is fickle and vulnerable to manipulation. no president can satisfy each member of society. there will always be competing interests wanting to be on top at any cost. that’s why the constitution is explicit about the president’s term of office. losers have to wait till they are elected at the proper time, whatever the surveys say.
lakas_pinoy on Fri, 22nd Feb 2008 4:31 am
Bencard:
“while it’s true that legitimate surveys may reflect the mood of the people on a given time, it cannot, and should not be a basis for ousting a sitting president, or to undo his/her election.”
You are very right. Their findings cannot be used by anybody to oust a sitting president. But they have some uses in other respects, at least for the person concerned. For me, polls like these are a barometer of something, whether one believes in it or not.
Imagine a person, healthy or sick, who wants to know his/her blood pressure, or body temperature will need this barometer. If a person doesn’t believe in its readings, it’s up to him/her really. No need for the barometer in the first place.
But a good doctor who cares would suggest its use to indicate whether something is wrong or not inside a person. Even hard-headed patients should listen, for their own good.
Surveys are a barometer of the people’s pulse, heartbeat, or temperature. They tell a sitting president what’s wrong with her, or the way she runs the government. Nothing can substitute for those survey readings. Not even the most brilliant lawyers, seasoned economists, and political pundits around a sitting president. Especially so if all of them have acquired a state of mind molded in a specific paradigm – one defined by acquiescence, complicity or obedience to partake of power and glory.
PTA on Fri, 22nd Feb 2008 5:05 am
Bencard, what you said is what you said and this is what you said –
you should know that “justice†and “accountability” can only be attained and enforced in this world through law.â€
your attempt to spin it to suit your dumb argument is shameful.
Bencard on Fri, 22nd Feb 2008 5:22 am
lakas_pinoy, usually, a courageous, but unpopular exercise of poliical will by a president engenders unpopularity and bitter hatred, mostly stoked and fed by his/her enemies. undue reliance on “surveys” to steer the course of the nation is a guaranteed recipe for disaster. most of the
time, what is unpopular is the right thing to do. the president was chosen to lead, not to be led or misled. as long as his/her actions do not violate the laws and the constitution, he/she should not be hampered by the wishes of his/her detractors and others. he/she must live or die with her own sense of what is right and what is wrong, his own decisions (within the sphere of his/her authority), and most of all, his her discretions.
a doctor’s opinion is a lot different from public opinion. the former is educated opinion based on empirical scientific fact, the latter is based on a combination of conjectures, emotions, and momentary desires, and oftentimes wrong, e.g., trillianes, jamby, jinggoy, etc., and the father of all miscalculations – erap
Bencard on Fri, 22nd Feb 2008 5:26 am
a case of dumb and dumber, huh, pta? ad hominem will not get you anywhere, you better believe it!
lakas_pinoy on Fri, 22nd Feb 2008 5:47 am
Bencard:
But surveys are not mere conjectures, nor based on emotions and momentary desires. They are based on empirical methods, on scientific paradigms, and the findings they produce are clothed with valid logic.
I will understand your position if you haven’t taken, or have forgotten, statistics or basic research methodology.
Unless we deal with fly-by-night surveyors who operate along Claro M. Recto Ave., but not with the kind that Pulse Asia and SWS claim they are. The latter are credible, staffed as they are mostly by professors and academicians from UP.
And unless you don’t believe in empiricism in polls and similar studies in the social sciences. That reduces your empiricism as the domain of natural sciences only (e.g. medicine)?
In that case, let Gloria listen to herself and those who surround her. Ignore public opinion, listen to her own doctor only (or spin doctors as others say it?).
Jeg on Fri, 22nd Feb 2008 9:08 am
Bencard: jeg, i don’t have to tell you that an “oath†doesn’t necessarily make a statement true. that’s why we have the crime of perjury.
Yes of course, Manoy Bencard. But it is no longer ‘gossip’. Testimonial evidence is admissible evidence if given under oath, the witness has first hand knowledge, and has full recollection of events. As per perjury, that is a legal matter and has to be proven in a court of law. If not proven, the testimony stands, that is, not gossip.
mang_isko on Fri, 22nd Feb 2008 1:23 pm
guys, you seen this already?
http:www.youtube.com/watch?V=iEAVaXA8kBM
mang_isko on Fri, 22nd Feb 2008 1:24 pm
link:http:www.youtube.com/watch?V=iEAVaXA8kBM
Madonna on Fri, 22nd Feb 2008 1:57 pm
as long as his/her actions do not violate the laws and the constitution, he/she should not be hampered by the wishes of his/her detractors and others. – Bencard
Precisely the point Manoy. There are accusations that she has violated the laws of this land and the Constitution. But she has used her powers not to be held accountable. Rule of law eh?
And oh, let me tell you, that I may not be a hotshot lawyer like you, but like many Filipinos, the majority I believe can distinguish between legality and justice. And problema kay GMA, she considers Filipinos stupid. As a head of state, what kind of leader is that who lies, steals and cheats at least from the accusations, but do consider them as serious enough to merit the fact that people are entitled the truth about these accusations. Rule of law eh?
Let us think about the most important thing that bothers every Filipino, no matter what their background or affiliations. The rule of law that states that crime does not pay must be enforced for our children and the next generations of Filipinos who must know that our society does not tolerate wrongdoing and falsehoods, most especially if it’s coming from the head of state, the one who should be an exemplar of doing the decent and right thing always.
If you could read from my previous threads, I advocated that an impeachment is the best way to settle the political crisis that has been going on since 2005. So from this, do you think that I don’t consider the legality aspect? An impeachment is both concerned with being fair or just and legal — a cross between a court of public opinion and an actual court of law.
Buti na lang di ako naging lawyer, because a lot of people actually wanted me to be one. See, I had a lot of indication because when I was taking some law subjects as a pol sci student in UP Diliman, I always fell asleep in class. But fyi I have nothing against lawyers because I have a lot of friends and relatives who are lawyers but gee Manoy, they don’t sound like you at all.
Madonna on Fri, 22nd Feb 2008 2:00 pm
“do consider” — > don’t consider
Madonna on Fri, 22nd Feb 2008 2:01 pm
“do consider” — > doesn’t consider
cvj on Fri, 22nd Feb 2008 2:08 pm
Mang Isko, why did you post twice? Are there two versions coming from Malacanang just like the last time?
Bert on Fri, 22nd Feb 2008 2:47 pm
“tila yata lahat ng proyecto para sa ikauunlad ng bansa ay nakansela dahil sa malaking ingay ng mga taong ibat-iba ang motibo. haaay, naku!–Bencard
Bencard, hayaan na nating makansela muna pansamantala ang lahat na proyecto ni gloria at mike. linawin muna natin kung ang kalahati ng halaga ng bawat project ay ibinulsa ‘o hindi ng mga may hawak nito sa pamamagitan ng pag obserba sa resulta ng investigasyon sa NBN project bilang halimbawa. linawin din natin muna kung may kinalaman ‘o wala si mike sa mga ito, para sigurado. total naman, may karapatan din kami dito sa pinas na mag-siguro dahil kami rin naman ang magbabayad sa loan bilang mga taxpayers, lalo na kung ang isang bot project ay ginawang govt. loan project, ‘di ba?
kung sa ikau-unlad nga ng bansa to-its, at ‘di sa ikau-unlad ng bulsa nila, aba, eh, ituloy na ulit ‘o buhayin kapag malinaw na ang lahat. puede?
Madonna on Fri, 22nd Feb 2008 3:04 pm
“Madonna: On surveys in the Philippines. There are only 3 or 4 firms, right? And how many dialects do they use?
The most important question for my interests — how much to conduct a survey of 1,000 respondents where I provide the population characteristics (e.g. (i) high-school and college-level only; (ii) 600 from NCR, then 100 each for Baguio, Davao, Cebu, Naga); (iii) cost of “piggyback†survey of 3 questions; (iv) cost for independent-survey of 12 question.” — UP n
UP n,
You could contact the Social Weather Stations (SWS) and Pulse Asia — these are the most reputable firms, but mostly they cater to clients who generally want to know about public opinion, meaning their samples are geared towards capturing the characteristics and opinion of the entire population of the country.
But it really depends on your needs. Are you conducting a market research study because it seems your target population is about about a particular set? If this is the case, there are I think are a lot or market research firms around — AC Nielsen, for example and you could talk directly to them for costs and logistics, etc. Just do some googling, and some phone calls.
anthony scalia on Fri, 22nd Feb 2008 4:00 pm
Madonna,
its the will of 1,200 people. no problem with that. that is their constitutional right. okay its not a joke to acknowledge the will of 1,200 people. but its a joke to say that the 1,200 represents the 85M
as the Ca t would say ’sheeesh’
er, milady, what i mean by ‘legal’ is that you can’t go to any government body, invoke the results of the ’surveys’ and expect gloria to step down on the strength of the surveys
asus! are you serious? trust, legitimacy, performance measured by ’surveys’? milady, all the political ’surveys’ were about perceptions!
are you sure how the questions to the respondents are worded? leading questions! maybe bencard can define for you what a ‘leading question’ is.
no problem with that. consistent, significant, as far as 1,200 people are concerned. especially if you find out that the sponsor (the person who commissioned the survey) is consistently the same!
no problem with a 1,200-strength ball, i can take a hit from that. what i’ll avoid at all costs is an 85M-strength ball. assuming it exists
ah ok i lost, according to you. i have no way of verifying your claim. but since i always presume good faith, oh sige i lost. i’ll take your word that you’re not a poseur
again, the surveys are reliable and legitimate. as far as the 1,200 are concerned.
anthony scalia on Fri, 22nd Feb 2008 4:07 pm
Madonna,
maybe a case of ’surveys’ overload. you’re assuming that your friends and relatives who are lawyers must be representative of what a lawyer should be
cvj on Fri, 22nd Feb 2008 4:14 pm
Madonna, it looks like Anthony is not familiar enough with Statistical Sampling. I’m having a similar challenge discussing with him in matters concerning GDP & FIES even if i use lechon-manok as an example.
anthony scalia on Fri, 22nd Feb 2008 4:14 pm
lakas_pinoy
“btw, most of the staff behind these 2 firms are statisticians/academicians from UP”
Marcos is from UP. So are gloria, Joma Sison, some economic managers from Marcos to Erap, Villar, Binay, Pee Wee Trinidad…..
anthony scalia on Fri, 22nd Feb 2008 4:37 pm
cvj,
why did the picture of a grade school crybaby running to his mama suddenly crossed my mind?
anyway, go ahead, i wont stop you from engaging in statistical sampling. di ko naman dinedeny na reliable yung methods and results, for 1,200 people nga lang.
saka, most important of all, the ’surveys’ merely confirm your prejudices kaya tanggap nyo kaagad! its your life anyway.
kung sabagay, pera yan ni Sen. Sergio Osmeña III, karapatan nyang gastusin ang kwarta nya to commission ’surveys ‘ on perceptions!
kaswerte naman nina Mahar at Felipe! malaking kumita sa ’surveys’! kasi for one thing, both admin and opposition can commission ’surveys’! wala namang ‘conflicts of interests’ sa survey companies!
biruin mo, perception lang for one week ang ime-measure sa 1,200 people, leading questions pa, kwarta na! never mind if the respondents changed their mind the following week! parang money for nothing!
Madonna on Fri, 22nd Feb 2008 4:42 pm
“maybe a case of ’surveys’ overload. you’re assuming that your friends and relatives who are lawyers must be representative of what a lawyer should be”
– anthony scalla
Hehe, nope of course not. Funny ka. Now I’m just trying to humor Bencard here (gasp, wag sana mahighblood si Manoy).
cvj on Fri, 22nd Feb 2008 4:48 pm
If the survey results were only applicable to the 1,200 people being surveyed, then that’s no longer ’sampling’. Sampling involves obtaining information from a representative subset of the population. We can argue on whether the sample itself is ‘representative’, on the formulation of the survey questions, on the interpretation of the results, or even on what ‘reliability’ of the results mean, but the technique of random sampling has long been accepted as part of the scientific method.
anthony scalia on Fri, 22nd Feb 2008 5:09 pm
cvj,
you know why it is dead wrong? your ‘new’ formula is just another way of arriving at the same end – final outputs of goods and services
tsk tsk tsk tsk. you still keep on insisting that family income is a component of GDP. tsk tsk tsk tsk.
iho, look again at the components of your ‘new’ formula – its compensation income. meant to arrive at the same end result – final output of goods and services
ah no need to ‘re-read it again’, thats not what your text was saying. its clear you said the 200T goes to GDP. unless you’re changing your example.
iho, no question on statistics as a discipline. and random sampling has its place, especially if its for the marketplace. but not when it is used to measure something qualitative like perception on politics!
the surveys that you swallow hook line and sinker are just supporting documents for a ‘Genuine Opportunists’ (to borrow the phrase) spin
anthony scalia on Fri, 22nd Feb 2008 5:20 pm
Madonna,
“Hehe, nope of course not. Funny ka. Now I’m just trying to humor Bencard here (gasp, wag sana mahighblood si Manoy)”
oops
Madonna on Fri, 22nd Feb 2008 5:30 pm
“asus! are you serious? trust, legitimacy, performance measured by ’surveys’? milady, all the political ’surveys’ were about perceptions!”
Anthony, you are correct that they are all about perceptions. For example, when I say I trust Gloria because she has upheld the rule of law — it rests on the perception that she has upheld the rule of law, ergo I trust her. The social world is all about perceptions, aint it, the certainty only happens a certain period. For example, I pointed to the significance of surveys about how people say that GMA must step down, because after three years, the survey results are basically the same, meaning the dominant sentiment or perception that she outght to step down remains.
Public opinion is of course all about perceptions. But when coming up with so called perceptions for example, the trustworthiness or performance of officials, a citizen has his or her own basis for that — for example, my basis is an official’s track record for the issues that matter to me. For others, it maybe not be so objective, say how often a Congressman visits them or lends them money for a binyag or a funeral. But it doesn’t mean that they are not legitimate. Remember we live in a democracy, and one man’s opinion counts as much as the another — ideally that is.
And no, I don’t consider surveys as the ultimate basis that GMA must be held accountable — they only contribute to proofs that she should be.
cvj on Fri, 22nd Feb 2008 5:39 pm
Final outputs of goods and services is expressed in terms of income. That’s why GDP figures are part of our National Income Accounts and that is also why there is such a thing as the ‘Income Approach’ to computing GDP. The difference between GDP and FIES is that FIES contains only income of the household sector (i.e. personal income of family members) while GDP contains both business income and household income.
Compensation income also goes to personal income and is in turn aggregated into family (aka household) income.
Why do you keep ignoring the following paragraph in that same comment (at February 21st, 2008 11:07 am) where i explicitly stated that “In the above example, GDP will be 500,000 while Total Family income will be 300,000.“? It’s there in black and white.
Political perception has been one of the areas where random sampling has been applied not only here but also in other countries. In the US, they have the Gallup Poll (by (among many others) just to cite a well known example.
anthony scalia on Fri, 22nd Feb 2008 5:42 pm
cvj,
again, for the nth time, theres no question on methods and results.
sige na nga, para claro (its the drift of my previous posts) – my only beef with the ’surveys’ on gloria is that its being held out as representative of the over-all population.
but i’m not questioning statistics as a discipline. as i said earlier, random sampling has its place. like in surveys of TV viewing.
anthony scalia on Fri, 22nd Feb 2008 6:12 pm
cvj,
what?!? are you sure?!? (1) the value of the final output is a lot bigger than the income paid to produce it, and (2) thats just another way of arriving at the same final output of goods and services
i’ll restate it again – the end result for the income approach is final output of products and services. and the ‘income ‘ component of your ‘new formula’ isnt family income!
por diyos por santo! “GDP contains both business income and household income” daw! eh in the two forumlas used to arrive at GDP walang specific mention of ‘business income’ and ‘household income’
you keep on insisting the inclusion of business income and household income to justify your view of a ‘disconnect’ of official GDP with FIES results
sige na nga ill force myself to assume na you mean that ‘the income used to pay off the means of producing the final output of goods and services is included in the value of the said final output of goods and services’
heto ang sinabi mo February 21st, 2008 at 11:07 am
your next quote
****muntik nang mabilaukan****
i have yet to hear a Gallup poll on perception of corruption/fitness to continue of US Presidents. di ko alam sa ibang countries
one thing for sure – whoever conducts the Gallup poll does not accept ‘commissioned’ surveys a la Sen. Sergio Osmeña III. maybe those based in the US can confirm or refute this
mang_isko on Fri, 22nd Feb 2008 7:08 pm
wag na kayong magdebate at magsayang ng laway.
buking na si jun.
ayaw ng mga tao ng COMMUN(IST)AL ACTION. wag nyong ipagpilitan ang gusto nyong mag-resign si gloria.
pagod na ang mga pilipino sa kadadadak ninyo.
maghintay na lang kayo sa 2010 o di kaya sa 2016.
cvj on Fri, 22nd Feb 2008 7:21 pm
mang isko, style mo bulok.
cvj on Fri, 22nd Feb 2008 7:23 pm
Yes, final output is income. Why would anyone produce output if they are not compensated for it? Think about it. Even in a lechon manok business, isn’t it that every single peso you pay to someone becomes someone else’s income? If you buy chicken, it becomes the income of the chicken supplier. If you pay wages, it becomes your workers’ income. If you rent a location, your rental expenditure is also someone else’s income and so on and so forth.
Once you sell the lechon manok, what you make on top of what you spent becomes your net income (i.e. net operating profits). Add up all of the above together and you get GDP.
You can check out this website on GDP, Income…
http://www.amosweb.com/cgi-bin/awb_nav.pl?s=wpd&c=dsp&k=gross+domestic+product,+income
…where it explains the following components of GDP:
“Compensation of Employees: The official measure of wages earned by the household sector for supplying labor services.
Net Interest: The official measure of interest earned by the household sector for supplying capital services.
Rental Income of Persons: The official measure of rent earned by the household sector for supplying land and related services.
Corporate Profits: The total accounting profits received by corporations, which is the official measure of profit earned by the household sector for supplying entrepreneurship services through corporations.
Proprietors’ Income: The excess of revenue over explicit production cost of owner-operated businesses and includes payments to all factors of production–labor, capital, land, and entrepreneurship.”
Do you notice how many times it mentioned the household sector?
Yes, thanks. That’s what i meant.
I did a quick google and found one CNN/Gallup Poll (Jan 3,2006) that stated:
“According to a CNN/USA Today/Gallup poll, 49 percent of respondents said most members of Congress are corrupt. Although 46 percent of respondents said most aren’t, the margin of sampling error — plus or minus 4.5 percent — makes it clear that the perception of congressional politicians is largely negative.”
So even in the US, there are such kind of polls taking place.
Silent Waters on Fri, 22nd Feb 2008 9:50 pm
CVJ
You’re really confused about (GDP) final output of goods and services and income. Remember, GDP INCLUDES the value of the raw material goods itself as well as the income derived from any value added process and of course the profits. Income DOES NOT include those.
That’s why Scalia has been having issue with you on your definition. Kahit ako, ngayon ko lang narinig na GDP = Family income.
Now if you’re trying to make a connection between the two, ibang story yan.
cvj on Sat, 23rd Feb 2008 1:15 am
Silent Waters, continuing with the lechon-manok example, the raw material is a chicken. Are you saying that the value of the chicken is not someone’s income? If that’s the case, when Anthony buys the chicken, to whom does his payment go? Isn’t it that the proceeds from the sale of a chicken goes to the seller (who derives income) and not to the chicken itself?
Bencard on Sat, 23rd Feb 2008 1:31 am
laka_pinoy, re your 5:47 am, 2/22 post: what i was differentiating was between a doctor’s opinion and public opinion, not the survey process. public opinion is just the perception of the public, formed by diverse factors such as propaganda, prejudice, hatred, jealousy, etc., or love, respect, hero worship, etc. I said a doctor’s opinion is usually based on his education, scientific data and relevant experiences in the course of his exercise of his profession.
don’t confuse public opinion with the mechanics of poll surveys.
madonna, law, justice and legality are functions of reason (brain), not gut feeling. maybe your decision not to study law is right for you.
cvj on Sat, 23rd Feb 2008 1:56 am
I know you’re not a Doctor but don’t be confused by the terminology ‘gut feeling’. That also emanates from the brain not the gut.
Bencard on Sat, 23rd Feb 2008 2:40 am
yeah cvj, but i said REASON, not emotion, didn’t i?
cvj on Sat, 23rd Feb 2008 3:30 am
Bencard, gut feeling is also not synonymous with emotion. Just like conscious reasoning, gut feel is also a cognitive faculty. Both influence the emotions, and both are influenced by emotions.
hawaiianguy on Sat, 23rd Feb 2008 3:56 am
Bencard:
“what i was differentiating was between a doctor’s opinion and public opinion, not the survey process. public opinion is just the perception of the public, formed by diverse factors such as propaganda, prejudice, hatred, jealousy, etc., or love, respect, hero worship, etc. I said a doctor’s opinion is usually based on his education, scientific data and relevant experiences in the course of his exercise of his profession.â€
But sir, public opinions are CAPTURED by those surveys, right? Those surveys, for example by Pulse Asia, are the public opinions MADE CONCRETE, materializing the abstract concepts (“low trust, intolerance of graft, favor impeach or resign,†etc.) into figures like “59% believe that Arroyo is corrupt, etc.â€
Behind those numbers are the stuff of public opinion, or of a particular public (whether for or against anyone/anything) expressed by a survey, apart from the mechanics of it or its designer or patron.
And how do you know that among the 1,200 sample, not a single one is a doctor? or a researcher? or a lawyer/supporter who patronizes Gloria to the hilt? Come on, you seem to treat “public opinion†as worthless compared to the advise of a doctor (or Malacanan’s spin doctors).
“don’t confuse public opinion with the mechanics of poll surveys. “
It’s you who got confused. If you take my argument in its context, the mechanics is only a major part of it, not everything. Truth is, you seem to denigrate the empiricism behind legitimate poll surveys, because it is tied up with perception whose value you debase so much. Because you equate perception with something more negative (“propaganda, hatred, jealousy, hero worship, etc.â€) than positive (“love, respectâ€), that’s why. Freudian slip?
Bencard on Sat, 23rd Feb 2008 3:58 am
“both influence the emotions, and both are influenced by emotions”. not quite, cvj. reason influences emotion but not vice versa. if your lust urged you to rape a girl, reason would tell you that if you did that you’d go to jail. your deductive reasoning that you’d go to jail would not affect your feelings of lust. it might deter you but the feelings are still there.
hawaiianguy on Sat, 23rd Feb 2008 4:03 am
Now, that’s hawaiianguy speaking lakas_pinoy’s lingo (titanium aka Bencard)
cvj on Sat, 23rd Feb 2008 11:37 am
Bencard, there are cases when emotion influences reason, as when a person is motivated by curiosity to find out the truth. That’s why there’s such a thing as passion for learning (or discovery). The Nobel prize winning physicist Richard Feynmann wrote a book called “The Pleasure of Finding Things Out“. If that passion (for learning) disappears, then so will human progress.
Silent Waters on Sat, 23rd Feb 2008 4:46 pm
The value of a chicken is NOT income. It’s a cost included in the total value of the goods/services. (RM + Value Added). At the end of the day, as you keep going back to the production process of producing the chicken, there is also cost + income from “producing” the chicken.
cvj on Sat, 23rd Feb 2008 10:10 pm
The value of the chicken (i.e. the price paid for by Anthony), is the income of the person who sold the chicken.
Bencard on Sat, 23rd Feb 2008 11:20 pm
cvj, the desire to learn the truth is emotional, but you cannot arrive at the truth without suspending all your emotions and letting reason take over completely. only your dispassionate mind can find real truth, not the “truth” you want or prefer.
cvj on Sat, 23rd Feb 2008 11:39 pm
I can relate to what you say Bencard. I was an Arroyo supporter (like you) once, so when Hello Garci broke out, i found it hard to face my mistake. I had to overcome that to accept the truth. Of course, Manolo’s example helped.
anthony scalia on Mon, 25th Feb 2008 6:18 pm
cvj,
“sige na nga ill force myself to assume na you mean that ‘the income used to pay off the means of producing the final output of goods and services is included in the value of the said final output of goods and services’ ”
“Yes, thanks. That’s what i meant.”
gotcha.
sorry but your texts do not show that that was what you meant! thats why i had to say that
may i remind you, again – our discussion is purely on your insisted ‘disconnect’ between GDP and family income, so you can add some ammunition against gloria, so she can’t boast on the 7.3.
you keep on insisting that GDP should be equal to family income, because if it did, you will diss the GDP figure because FIES results say otherwise!
in short, you dispute GDP by using FIES results.
my point has always been GDP is primarily a measurement on final output. any income method is another way of arriving at the same product – final output of goods and services
but there you go still insisting that family income is a component of GDP.
in short, there is no ‘disconnect’ between GDP and family income, despite your claims to the contrary.
anthony scalia on Mon, 25th Feb 2008 6:30 pm
cvj,
maybe the problem is with media reporting the local surveys. or worse, the survey firms themselvs
the aforesaid text acknowledges that the 49% and 46% are ‘of the respondents’, not 49% or 46% of the whole US population!
whereas dito, %age of the entire Philippine population agad!
sa madaling sabi, sa ‘tate, its acknowledged right away that the %ages are %ages of respondents! which is a lot different from %age of the entire nation!
cvj on Mon, 25th Feb 2008 10:42 pm
Anthony (at 6:30pm), the “49% and 46% of the respondents” are meant to represent the sentiments of the entire population (taking into account the margin of error). If the results are only limited to the sentiments of the respondents, then the CNN/Gallup Poll will not be newsworthy.
Regarding your comment at 6:18pm, as i previously mentioned, the final output of goods and services is expressed as income. That’s why GDP falls under ‘National Income Accounting’. Think of it like the country’s income statement. (Although unlike the income statement of a business firm, in national accounting, Income = Expenditures.) Click on the link i provided above (at February 22nd, 2008, 7:23 pm).
anthony scalia on Tue, 26th Feb 2008 5:20 pm
cvj,
ehem, as per your quoted text -
49% of respondents….
46% of respondents…
never does the text imply that the respondents were a sample of the entire almost 300-M US population
you are the only one who claims the figures “…are meant to represent the sentiments of the entire population”
asus! don’t go beyond what your quoted text says
mali ka in saying
because CNN/Gallup aren’t claiming what the survey is not, a ’sample’ of the almost 300M US population, but for what it is, a survey of respondents!
may i remind you again, you are insisting on GDP as ‘family income’ not income per se. and even using your GDP through income formula, the final output is still goods and services.
don’t depart from our discussions my friend. we are not disputing what should be the components of GDP per se. my issue with you is your insistence on equating family income with GDP so you can attack the 7.3 GDP by using another metric, family income, para may maibato ka lang kay gloria
cvj on Tue, 26th Feb 2008 9:30 pm
On the contrary, the article claims just that. The lead-sentence says…
You can check for yourself here:
http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/01/03/poll.congressimage/
You can also click on the ‘View Poll’ and you will see that the sample size is 1033 individuals, with a sample error of +/-4.5%. Now think about this, what is the sample error used for? Why is it needed?
What i am trying to explain is that the most of the components that make up family income are also the components that make up GDP. Scroll up to my original comment about this matter on this thread (February 20th, 2008 at 10:17 am) so you can see what i said:
Anthony, both per capita gdp and average income per family are measures of income…I understand that they don’t measure the same things (e.g. corporate income is not measured in the latter and ofw income is not included in the former
To repeat, the final output measure is income.
anthony scalia on Wed, 27th Feb 2008 11:27 am
cvj,
“About half of U.S. adults believe most members of Congress are corrupt, a poll released Tuesday suggests”
why didnt you include that sentence in your first quote?!?
thats suspect! thats an afterthought! a face-saving measure
for the NTH time, our discussion IS NOT on what are the components of GDP but on YOUR INSISTENCE that the present GDP is flawed using FIES results. particularly, YOUR INSISTENCE that GDP = family income! WRONG!!!
Iho, GDP per capita is simply dividing GDP with the population!
If YOU INSIST that FIES results are a much better indicator than GDP per capita then JUST SAY SO!
besides, NEVER DID I CLAIM that GDP per capita is a better indicator of purchasing power than family income
to placate you, final output may be income, but its not the same as family income
(di ako marunong mag boldface, mag-itals. sorry for the caps)
cvj on Wed, 27th Feb 2008 12:24 pm
Anthony, i did not include that portion in my original reference to the article (at February 22nd, 2008, 7:23 pm above) because at that time, i was responding to a different argument, namely, your specific claim that…
So i showed you that there was such a poll that measures perceptions of corruption in other countries. You then tried to counter by asserting that the…
…so i had to show you that the CNN/Gallup poll is indeed taking a sample that represents the entire population of U.S. adults. Anyone with a basic understanding of statistics would have understood that.
If you’re mystified on why such a relatively small sample can represent a large population of 300 million, here is a ‘Sample Size Calculator’ website that might help:
http://www.surveysystem.com/sscalc.htm
There you will see, for example, that for population of 300Million, a random sample size of 1,040 can give you results with 99% Confidence Level and +/-4% Sampling Error (i.e. Confidence Interval).
I don’t know why you persist in claiming that i insisted that ‘GDP equals family income’ when i have already explained myself above. If my hypothetical lechon-manok example (at February 21st, 2008 at 1:28 am) led you to believe that i made such a claim, then the third paragraph in that same comment (where i begin with Of course, an economy consists of more than a single business…) should have cleared this up.
mindanaoan on Sat, 1st Mar 2008 12:57 pm
mlq3: per your cited reference, metro manila population is only 13 percent of the philippine population. the 39% is the combined region 3,4 and ncr population
mlq3 on Sat, 1st Mar 2008 2:31 pm
thanks, cat, mindanaoan for the correction. will correct this entry.
Jake on Wed, 5th Mar 2008 9:13 am
Away lang yan tunkgol sa kickback. Ngayon hero niyo na si Joey de Venecia at Jun Lozada.
Teka si Lozada presidente the Philforest? Anong kabulastugan naman ang mayroon at napasama siya dun?
E ayaw namin kay Noli de Castro at GMA. Ayaw namin kay Erap at Cory. At lalung ayaw namin kay Lozada at de Venecia sampu ng mga prayle’t madreng nagpapagamit.
Ayaw namin sa kanilang lahat. Paano na to? Pare perhong magnanakaw ang gustong pumapel?
Jake on Wed, 5th Mar 2008 9:16 am
Sino ang panalo? Ang corrupt na si Jun Lozada na bago niyong hero.
Pinaikot mga tumbong niyo. Bobo talaga middle forces.
Jake on Wed, 5th Mar 2008 9:27 am
Anak ng tokwa. Pinagawayan pa Economic terminology.
Subukan niyong kausapin ng ganyan ang gusto niyong ipalit na presidente. Si Noli de Castro.
Langhiya kayong mga middle forces. Pinatalsik niyo si Erap tapos ibinigay niyo sa amin si Gloria. Ngayon naman gusto niyong patalsikin si Gloria para kay Noli.
Para kayong mga teenager na hayok sa laman. Hindi makapagpigil. Hindi makapaghintay. Mapusok pero wala namang ibinibigay na alternatibo.
miss choi on Fri, 27th Jun 2008 6:30 pm
Hi! Didn’t know I was mentioned here (until today, thanks to Technorati). I am speechless with joy. I love your Inquirer column, by the way.