Neri being naughty!
February 1, 2008 by mlq3
Filed under Daily Dose
Scuttlebutt update 4:51 PM:
Easing out of Executive Secretary Ermita moved forward to March but timeframe is still up to May. Ermita angling to be PAGCOR Chairman but remains to be seen if the President would risk easing out Genuino in exchange. More likely scenario is a face-saving but politically non-threatening ambassadorship for Ermita.
Winston Garcia said to be slated to be the next Chairman of the Commission on Audit.
The Speaker supposedly threatened a one-hour privilege speech that would get the President in hot water if he’s toppled from the Speakership. President backed off if JDV3 backs off; leaks about this apparently sourced from the Ermita and Bunye camps in the Palace. Congressmen (whether true or not or to drive up their market value) speaking of 1 billion Peso topple-the-Speaker fund at 2 million Pesos per congressman’s signature. But another view is that the President’s sons are just making noise about continuing the toppling efforts to save face.
The President is said to have to intimated that the time has come to put in place the system that ought to have been instituted in the Marcos years: a French style parliamentary system.
***
A likely story! I’m not hiding, says Neri who turns 58 on Friday. Of course the law-and-order types are silent in the face of Neri’s dodging a lawful warrant of arrest.
Other news: ) Corruption concerns block more US aid to Philippines. The transcript of the press briefing is available online at the US Department of Sate website. Here are the relevant portions on the Philippines:
QUESTION: My name is Jennie Ilustre from Malaya, Philippines Daily. My question is — I was reading this report — the Philippines is still under a threshold program.
AMBASSADOR DANILOVICH: Yes.
QUESTION: Is there any good news when it will qualify?
AMBASSADOR DANILOVICH: We have an excellent threshold program with the Philippines. As you know, it’s a $20 million program. Frankly, it’s all the more robust because the Philippine Government upon receiving the $20 million of our MCC threshold activity, pledged and participated with an equal amount of money — $20 million — to support this program. It’s working well. It’s been successful. It’s going forward. We want to see further results. We’re continuing to look at the Philippines as a positive example of cooperation with the MCC.
I had the pleasure of meeting with President Arroyo and her cabinet in New York in September to discuss the ongoing –
QUESTION: What year, sir?
AMBASSADOR DANILOVICH: This — 2007.
QUESTION: Okay.
AMBASSADOR DANILOVICH: At the United Nations General Assembly when she was there for those meetings. We met for about half an hour and discussed the MCC threshold program and the continuing efforts of her government to perform well on the indicators. We will be meeting the delegation from the Philippine Government next week here in Washington. I believe it’s Mr. Teves who is coming, who we’re going to be meeting with. He and his team and the MCC team will meet together to discuss further continuation of the program. And we hope eventually that the compact eligibility will continue and that they will be rewarded a compact in due course.
QUESTION: Who will be on the U.S. side when you meet?
AMBASSADOR DANILOVICH: It will be our MCC team here in Washington.
Thank you. Yes.
And-
QUESTION: Good morning, Mr. Ambassador. Bing Branigan from Manila Mail newspaper. When exactly next week Philippine Finance Secretary Teves is coming?
AMBASSADOR DANILOVICH: Secretary Teves — I think the meeting is scheduled for Tuesday.
QUESTION: Tuesday.
AMBASSADOR DANILOVICH: Yeah. I’m not sure about that but I think it’s Tuesday.
QUESTION: What’s keeping the Philippines from getting the – into the full MCC — what’s the requirements they have not passed yet.
AMBASSADOR DANILOVICH: Sure. We discussed this with President Arroyo and with her ministers when we were together in New York in September. And although the Philippines technically is eligible for a compact, there has been in the last assessment, indicator assessment some serious declines with regards to corruption and some other matters with their performance on the indicators. This causes us some concern because the drop in performance in fact was very dramatic. And we want to understand more clearly why that dramatic drop has occurred, understand what circumstances caused that to happen, so we can have some clarity as to whether or not this precipitous drop is going to continue or if there was some indicator irregularity or if there are further strong reforms which the Philippine Government needs to take in this regard to make sure that at the next period of assessment this summer, the indicator shows an upward trend. The drop was from the 70th percentile down to the 50th percentile. I think the figure – don’t hold me on this, but it was something like a drop from 76 down to 54 or something of that nature. So it was fairly significant. Even though they were still above the median. So that is, in fact, the very reason for the meetings next week. We’re going to discuss this and see. We are going forward. We’re continuing our dialogue. We’re open to discussion with the Philippines.
QUESTION: Mr. Ambassador, (inaudible) corruption (inaudible) is this part of it?
AMBASSADOR DANILOVICH: Well, part of it to the extent that, yes, it’s part of the democratic and – political and democratic assessments that we do in our country – do with our countries.
QUESTION: Thank you.
AMBASSADOR DANILOVICH: Yeah. Thank you.
Yesterday, the buzz in political circles mainly concerned whether the Speaker of the House would still be Jose de Venecia, Jr. by Monday or not. Basically, the President’s husband from overseas, and his two sons as the rallying symbols of the faithful, were relentless in pursuing the destruction of the Speaker: Kampi, Arroyo sons vote to oust De Venecia. Each new news item, for example 134 sign ‘no confidence’ paper vs Speaker–Villafuerte- would create a spike in the chatter. The message was, JDV urged to step down to save face but of course, Bluffing on numbers is House game. Everyone got in on the act: De Venecia-Nograles showdown inevitable–NPC. In the end, it became a question of who could shout they had the Mandate of Heaven: De Venecia: ‘I have Arroyo’s all-out support’.
Scuttlebutt was that the Palace’s preferred “win-win” solution was to appoint de Venecia ambassador to Washington this weekend, which would remove the need for a potentially messy showdown in the House. The problem with that proposal was that it was too insulting to be accepted by de Venecia -from No. 4 in the national hierarchy to a mere presidential appointee?- and would have put Lakas-CMD in too obviously a subordinate position vis-a-vis Kampi much too soon. In the end, the President apparently told her sons to back off on condition the Speaker did the same thing with his son: De Venecia buys time: Son’s silence for Arroyo support.
Also yesterday, during the investiture ceremony for Adel Abbas Tamano as President of the Pamantasan ng Lungsod ng Maynila, I had the opportunity to talk to Liling Briones, former Treasurer of the Philippines. She said that the unwritten story (picked up, as far as I can see, only by the Business Mirror where she writes a column) is how Congress has spent two years coming to grips with the budget process and allowing greater participation by the citizenry in its formulation. She said that Rep. Edcel Lagman in the House and Sen. Allan Peter Cayetano went above and beyond the call of duty in bringing the public into the budgeting process. After last year’s efforts to bring legislators and the public together foundered, for the present budget, members of the public got their act together as early as May, when the first call for submissions came. In that manner, they were in synch with the legislators who discovered that the public was willing to follow their process, and had done their homework.
The 1.2 trillion stated by the President remained the grand total for the budget, but members of Congress were able to realign different appropriations under the framework of the millenium development goals: for example spending on public health was increased by something like 50%. The problem now is that the President has taken a dim view when it comes to some of these realignments and has apparently threatened a veto. She also argued that the power of the president to veto is a limited one, subject to stringent criteria, but personally I tend to disagree with that assertion, in the past, anyway, presidential vetoes have been based on constitutionality and legality questions but also in the basis of presidential policy. For more on this point, see Budget ‘warriors’ warn against veto.
A further complication is the proposed stimulus package.
I asked for her views on the proposed stimulus package. She replied that the institutional stimulus package is the national budget and for that reason, she opposed a special stimulus package. A national budget mandates spending, she said, and not only that, because it specifies what is to be spent where, it assists transparency in the spending of public monies. In contrast a stimulus package still has to be debated and then won’t be channeled with as much oversight as takes place with the budget: apparently, for example, the various government departments would have to craft the systems to track such spending if approved, unlike the budget.
She also pointed out that the stimulus package and the national budget will be competing for the same resources: the government assets to be sold to fund the stimulus package, she said, are those already identified as the sources to fund the government budget. This seems to have been addressed: Stimulus plan sourced from 2008 budget.
Also, she said greater public scrutiny is required, whether of existing budgetary items or proposed stimulus programs. A case in point is the proposed 6 billion peso feeding program for school kids. She said that government policy at present is hand sacks of rice to kids, which leads to a whole set of problems: kids staggering home with big sacks of rice, or kids being told they’re receiving 5 kilos, say, but actually being sent home with less, and then of families that sell the rice gift or who then divvy it up among elder members so the kids don’t benefit from the rice. An entirely different situation is that there are appropriations for feeding school kids, but the rice is handed out during the summertime, when the kids and the teacher’s aren’t in school! The point being that enough research and practical experience exists, she says, to prove that effective feeding programs for kids involve feeding kids in school, during class hours.
Concerning Gov’t bares 7.3% 2007 GDP growth With robust 7.4% recorded in fourth quarter: Gov’t bares 7.3% 2007 GDP growth, strongest since 1976, a minor caveat.
You will see on the chart above, which comes from a presentation of Dr. Michael Alba, that the line showing the country’s GDP is broken at one point. I asked him what that meant. He said, it represents a change made in the manner GDP is computed, which makes all previous data and all subsequent data not precisely comparable to each other.
In the blogosphere, the NYT blog The Caucus liveblogs the Democratic debate.
Writer’s Block compares the Philippines to Czarist Russia.
Technorati Tags: Blogging, constitution, economy, House of Representatives, ideas, liveblogging, philippines, politics, president, Senate, society
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inodoro ni emilie on Fri, 1st Feb 2008 10:33 am
arroyo sons vote to oust de venecia who silences his son to curry the support of arroyo whose sons are voting to out de venecia who silences…..
tangina, why should we allow ourselves to be governed by these sons of quarreling bitches! ano kayo, may ari ng pilipinas?
cvj on Fri, 1st Feb 2008 10:49 am
Taking off from the discussion in the previous thread, the increase in the GDP is taking place in conjunction with a deterioration in real average family income back to what it was in the late 1980’s.
hawaiianguy on Fri, 1st Feb 2008 10:57 am
GDP rising? But they have changed the parameters of this indicator, as MLQ3 shows (based on Dr Alba’s data). How can one declare “robust growth” compared to previous performance, when these GDP estimates are not comparable in the first place?
Reminds me of another statistical discrepancy (magic or anomaly?) about FIES. Did anyone bother to check that Filipinos “overspent†relative to their income? (Ref: 1991-2000). Then, suddenly they “saved� (Ref: 2003-2006).
UPnS and others, hop in! cvj is now on board.
Jon Mariano on Fri, 1st Feb 2008 11:14 am
Wow, galing talaga ni Arroyo. Noon kulang ang school rooms, ang solusyon ay baguhin ang pag-bilang, noon mataas ang unemployment rate, ang ginawa niya baguhin ang pagbilang, ngayon tumaas ang GDP ng super taas (unexpected daw), pero binago din pala ang pagbilang! Ganito ba ang itinuturo sa UP?
hawaiianguy on Fri, 1st Feb 2008 11:21 am
Nobel prize-winning economist Joseph Stiglitz said:
“Among the economics profession there has been a strong sense for a long while that gross domestic product is not a good measure. It doesn’t measure changes in well-being, it doesn’t measure comparisons of well-being across countries.â€
“Thus, if political leaders are trying to maximize GDP and GDP is not a good measure, you are maximizing the WRONG THING and it can be counterproductive.â€
inodoro ni emilie on Fri, 1st Feb 2008 11:34 am
naku, i fear this discussion will go back to the topic on human development index. at baka pasukin na naman ito nang isang “consultant of here, there and everywhere” proselytizing on the reliability of the cia factbook rather than relying on the comparative EMPIRICAL measures of the undp.
Jon Mariano on Fri, 1st Feb 2008 11:52 am
I think that Romulo Neri is hiding behind a fishy “executive privilege”. He’s not qualified at CHED anyway, so why doesn’t he resign and then tell all if he really wants to?
UP n student on Fri, 1st Feb 2008 12:38 pm
hawaiianguy: the break in the graph that Q3 posted happened in 2000. The FIES/gdp-anomaly we were trying to nail down is for period 2003-to-2006 (where household income dropped (after inflation) across all deciles but GDP per-capita increased. Note: total-household-income is only about 51% of national GDP, so there is a lot of places where an extra-ordinary upburst/growth has happened.).
The Manila Bulletin news article did point to extra-ordinary jumps in the mining sector (24% when all the other sectors were in 11% or much lower).
anthony scalia on Fri, 1st Feb 2008 12:59 pm
hawaiianguy and mlq3,
“GDP rising? But they have changed the parameters of this indicator, as MLQ3 shows (based on Dr Alba’s data). How can one declare “robust growth†compared to previous performance, when these GDP estimates are not comparable in the first place?”
didnt it occur to you, that the past GDP computations could be the less-than-accurate ones? just because one PhD observed that bases are changed, doesnt immediately mean that the latest figure is just a spin.
maybe the good PhD should also disclose when was the last time the bases for computing GDP was changed. or if the changes affect the integrity of the resulting figure
ano ba yan? right or wrong, foreign investors use GDP growth rates as basis for investing in a country. When a 7.3% annual growth rate makes headlines, Pinoys elbow each other out to be the first to diss the figure.
Yan na nga ang chance to attract much more foreign direct investments, ito-torpedo pa, ng of all people, Pinoys din!
If gloria wanted inflated figures, she should have started using them in 2002. Why did she wait till 2008?
Everytime a GDP figure is attacked, every Pinoy is attacked, the Pinoy who manufactured and rendered a service thats behind the figure.
Thats an inspiring figure. It motivates Pinoys to continue working harder for the country.
” “Thus, if political leaders are trying to maximize GDP and GDP is not a good measure, you are maximizing the WRONG THING and it can be counterproductive.†”
Aren’t you aware that the yardstick used by almost everybody in ascertaining good economic health is figures/GDP/GNP?
Who are the wonders of the global economy now? China, India, Vietnam. Bases? Figures. Yet no one raises the observation “have those figures trickled down?” Only in the Philippines. By Pinoys.
In showing that the Philippines is a laggard, the figures of other countries are resorted to, no mention of a ‘trickle down effect.’ Yet when it comes to evaluating the Philippines, the “trickle down effect” criterion is raised.
inodoro ni emilie on Fri, 1st Feb 2008 1:39 pm
you have a point here a.s., but in which case, the government or its media spin should have been more prudent in claiming such gdp performance is the best ever achieved after so-so number of years, when the proper level of comparison can only be made from 2000 onwards.
inodoro ni emilie on Fri, 1st Feb 2008 1:41 pm
you have to be wary of statistical biases here, considering that two different yardsticks were employed.
john marzan on Fri, 1st Feb 2008 1:50 pm
all the previous data were not accurate, is that what you’re saying?
BAKIT NGAYON LANG LUMABAS ITO?
UP n student on Fri, 1st Feb 2008 2:06 pm
Things really get easier to analyze when one gets the definition-of-terms nailed down.
FIES is based on a survey of 41,000 households, then extrapolated to report on 17,403,000 households. Here is how Philippine census folks define FIES:
What are the areas covered in the sample survey?
The FIES covers all 78 provinces of the country including all cities and municipalities in Metro Manila. The sample includes 3,416 enumeration areas or barangays with approximately 41,000 sample households.
What specific data are obtained?
Source(s) of family income, in cash or in kind such as:
..salaries and wages from regular, seasonal, or occassional employment
..net share of crops, fruits and vegetables produced or livestock and poultry raised by other households
..enterpreneurial activities
..other sources of income (cash receipts from abroad, domestic sources, and others)
Level of family consumption by expenditure item such as:
..food, alcoholic beverages, and tobacco
..fuel, light and water; transportation and communication; and household operations
..personal care and effects, clothing, footwear, and other wear
..education, recreation, and medical care
..furnishing and equipment
..taxes
..housing, house maintenance and minor repairs
..miscellaneous expenditures
..other disbursements
Number of family members employed for pay or profit, or as wage, salary or own-account workers
Housing characteristics of families, their facilities, utilities, and others
Other related information
A lot of large-value-items go into GDP that are not tallied by the FIES survey (e.g. government expenditures on highways, dams, etcetera).
manuelbuencamino on Fri, 1st Feb 2008 2:08 pm
anthonyscalia,
“Aren’t you aware that the yardstick used by almost everybody in ascertaining good economic health is figures/GDP/GNP?”
But haven’t you heard that the usefulness of GDP and GNP is being questioned even by Nobel prize economists?
Kasi, Anthony, thinking people have begun asking what do we mean by growth? What is GDP/GNP really measuring?
Let me give you a gross hypothetical to answer your idea of GNP/GDP as yardsticks of “good economic health”
We become the world’s biggest mining town and the world’s largest producer of biofuels. Our GDP/GNP goes into orbit! But our environment is completely devastated and bio-fuel crops are substituted for food crops.
Or what if we turn our country into the world’s whorehouse and investors fuck our country into a first world pussy-powered economic giant ?
Should we break out the champagne because you said, “ano ba yan? right or wrong, foreign investors use GDP growth rates as basis for investing in a country.”
mlq3 on Fri, 1st Feb 2008 3:11 pm
just to be clear, alba never implied malice in the change in gdp comp. he simply pointed out it changed, and that should be born in mind, because a precise link can’t be established before the change and after. that’s all. it is as he graphed it -no longer a continuous line.
the economics-minded among you can dissect his views and paper here:
http://blogs.inquirer.net/current/2007/10/24/albas-answers/
anthony scalia on Fri, 1st Feb 2008 3:37 pm
john marzan,
“all the previous data were not accurate, is that what you’re saying?”
no. my sentence is clear enough
inodoro ni emilie on Fri, 1st Feb 2008 3:44 pm
here’s a url worth visiting from nscb explaining the breaks in gdp links:
http://www.nscb.gov.ph/sna/2007/1stQ2007/2007tnq_1.asp
also worth reading, in the vein of the reactions above:
http://www.nscb.gov.ph/announce/ForTheRecord/20july07_reliability.asp
anthony scalia on Fri, 1st Feb 2008 3:57 pm
manuelbuencamino,
sir, kindly re-read my entire post in its entirety, so you can take each sentence in context.
yes, im aware that the usefulness of GNP/GDP is being questioned. didn’t you notice i used the words “right or wrong” and “almost everybody”?
may i have a suggestion – why don’t you spread the word around the globe – that GDP/GNP figures shouldn’t be the bases for measuring growth? so you can help change the minds of foreign investors who still base their investment decisions on GDP/GNP, and thus invest in the Philippines?
in case you haven’t noticed, business publications such as BusinessMirror would publish articles/write-ups extolling a good performing country due to good figures.
Your examples on mining and whorehouse is all speculation. Napakasablay pa. Please give a concrete example.
“Should we break out the champagne because you said, “ano ba yan? right or wrong, foreign investors use GDP growth rates as basis for investing in a country.â€
Two comments:
1. Wait till 2009 so the figures for any changes in FDI will be in already. The celebration isn’t with the figure per se – its on how it affects increase in FDI
But GDP figures can be useful in another way – as a way of measuring some degree of growth. Its not an end-all and be-all. Please note my statement that it motivates Pinoys to work harder.
2. But no increase in FDI will take place, because the 7.3 figure is highly disputed and hence undermined. The unsuspecting foreign investor who reads such write-ups will look elsewhere.
anthony scalia on Fri, 1st Feb 2008 4:09 pm
manuelbuencamino,
Im really interested in your statement
“Kasi, Anthony, thinking people have begun asking what do we mean by growth? What is GDP/GNP really measuring?”
Are you sure that in your past write-ups, you never made a comparison of the Philippines with the so-called ASEAN tigers, based solely on GNP/GDP, and then conclude that the Philippines is a laggard?
So can i expect you and BusinessMirror not to extol economic wonders solely on GDP/GNP? And that from now on everytime I read BusinessMirror I wouldn’t read write-ups on comparisons between the Philippines and the economic wonders solely on GDP/GNP?
I can rest assured that all people who write in BusinessMirror are thinking people. It is my favorite business paper.
How about a series of articles on the absence of a trickle-down effect in China, India, and Vietnam?
inodoro ni emilie on Fri, 1st Feb 2008 4:16 pm
anthony:
gdp as a business barometer, spin a win ka. gdp as human development or economic welfare index, that’s where the debate rattles on. “trickle down” is a concept best view from the latter approach.
Marcelo on Fri, 1st Feb 2008 4:30 pm
Wow! What vitriol! I thought economics was the dismal not the demented science..ha ha!
Anyway, a very interesting lecture on poverty in the Philippines was held at UP, Diliman, yesterday (Jan 31). It was part of the UP Centennial lecture series. The meet discussed, among other things, a new study on poverty in the Philippines prepared under the aegis of the UP School of Economics (UPSE). You might want to get hold of some of this material through the UPSE since it may be relevant to your exchanges.
One notable item: the discussions qualifiedly but clearly endorsed globalization as a good thing (no mention of whorehouses, though).
BrianB on Fri, 1st Feb 2008 4:42 pm
Inodoro,
Our entire economy is trickle down. Trickle down from maids and laborers abroad, which the big banks and big retailers and big real estate developers rely on for profit and growth.
anthony scalia on Fri, 1st Feb 2008 5:07 pm
i.n.e.,
i was just reacting to the tendency of people in using figures strictly in comparing other countries favorably against the Philippines. But when the Philippines begins to show similar figures, these same people will use the ‘trickle down effect’ to downplay the figures for the Philippines. Yet how come they don’t use the same ‘trickle down’ metric in evaluating other countries.
in short, if human development/economic welfare index will be used to evaluate the Philippines, let them be the same yardstick to be used in evaluating other countries.
i am ambivalent towards GDP/GNP figures, but there are foreign investors who still rely on GDP/GNP figures in making investment decisions. we have no choice but to adapt that perspective (without discarding other measurements of growth) if we are to attract FDI (of course this is not to say that the figures must be cooked)
anthony scalia on Fri, 1st Feb 2008 5:12 pm
Marcelo,
just two comments on economics and UPSE -
1. someone has said that economists are correct only half of the time. worse, they don’t even know which half is wrong or right.
2. which UP college has done the most damage to the Philippine economy – the UPSE or the UP College of Law?
Jeg on Fri, 1st Feb 2008 5:12 pm
The Speaker supposedly threatened a one-hour privilege speech that would get the President in hot water if he’s toppled from the Speakership.
Sigh. Oust him, dont oust him; who really gives a sh!t? He has the goods but he won’t spill? The guy doesnt really care about the people, does he?
HedgeFunder on Fri, 1st Feb 2008 5:14 pm
“there are foreign investors who still rely on GDP/GNP figures in making investment decisions”
REALLY?????? Where??????????
Jeg on Fri, 1st Feb 2008 5:15 pm
One notable item: the discussions qualifiedly but clearly endorsed globalization as a good thing…
As in “Globalization would be a good thing if it isnt such a bad thing?”
nash on Fri, 1st Feb 2008 5:24 pm
@hedgefunder
“there are foreign investors who still rely on GDP/GNP figures in making investment decisions†REALLY?????? Where??????????”
Well certainly NOT the electronics industry which accounts for two-thirds of our exports…
DJB Rizalist on Fri, 1st Feb 2008 5:30 pm
Speaking for the Law and Order Types, I do hope the Senate regains its rightful place, especially in regards to the matter of Accountability of Public Officers.
This time, let’s hope the Media doesn’t have to use “electromagnetism” again, and let’s be clear again where the limits of Press Freedom are with respect to executive sessions, of which we should see more in the coming days.
Let’s not have any more shenanigans with anonymous sources and the like…
cvj on Fri, 1st Feb 2008 5:49 pm
Shouldn’t that be called trickle up?
cvj on Fri, 1st Feb 2008 6:25 pm
INE, thanks for the links to “On reliability of government economic data” and “The FIES of the Rich: Truth or Consequence?”. I think that directly addresses the concerns that Monsod raised (in her Saturday column) although Virola’s claim that the survey respondents probably lied is a tenuous one.
The Ca t on Fri, 1st Feb 2008 7:58 pm
When I was questioning the use of GDP and GNP as a measure of progress of the Philippines vis-a-vis other countries and measurement of poverty level on the observation that GDP does not reflect the real GDP because of the underground economy, the smuggling and the incompetence in data gathering for these types of surveys, I was attacked short to accusing me of being a CIA when I mentioned the fact that there is such as CIA Factbook which provides demographic and economic profiles of countries before WIKIPEDIA. sheesh.
There are so many factors that make comparison difficult over years. The most reliable comparison would be for five years only or for two periods of five years. Longer than these periods, the analyses are useless.
The Real GDP and REAL GNP won’t reflect the real gross output of the country if the CPI that is being used is for the year more than 30 years ago.
People who do not know a thing about how these facts are gathered and how they are extrapolated to come up with some figures which they can present to show the economic condition of the country are the first to react and make
“intelligent opinions”. Sus.
In the US which is facing recession, Alan Greenspan thinks that it is already experiencing one, two of the yardsticks of the economy are the unemployment rate and the change in the claim for unemployment benefits.
People here who get terminated either by downsizing and business closures can apply for the unemployment benefits which usually lasts for six months. An increase in the claim and an increase in the percentage means more people are getting out of the labor market, temporarily.
Still these statistics are just short term gauge for the economic condition, only on a quarterly basis.
roi on Fri, 1st Feb 2008 8:03 pm
the speaker would be remove? i dont think so,the day arroyo removes jdv is the day she looses her presidency in which case is not a bad thing..i mean i never like her anyway..and what about her two a-hole sons who call themeselves representatives..plus that iggy dude..i mean who the hell this people think they are..seriously, we cannot allow ourselves to be govern by this people..
nash on Fri, 1st Feb 2008 9:19 pm
@ C at
Alan Greenspan is still being asked for his opinion? Wow. If McCain wins, 2008 will be the year of the oldies.
Carl on Fri, 1st Feb 2008 9:26 pm
Finally, an opinion paper on the current judicial activism in the context of the libel memorandum:
http://opinion.inquirer.net/inquireropinion/columns/view/20080201-116069/Judicial-activism-and-its-limits
Discuss!
UP n student on Fri, 1st Feb 2008 10:41 pm
@ roi: …GMA loses her presidency when she removes jdv……. are you expecting then that GMA removes jdv in 2010?
The Ca t on Fri, 1st Feb 2008 10:46 pm
OO naman, he just retired from being Chairman of the Federal Reserve less than two years ago which he held for 20 years.
As to McCain, if ever he will be elected, he will be to oldest who assumed office at the age of 72. He’s now 71 and will be celebrating his birthday before the election.Reagan was the oldest so far at the age of 69. He suffered from alzheimer’s disease and we did not know when it started when he was still in office up to age 76 or after his tenure.
Second was Harrison at age 68 but he held the office only for a month. He died in office.
manuelbuencamino on Fri, 1st Feb 2008 11:30 pm
Anthony Scalia,
“Your examples on mining and whorehouse is all speculation. Napakasablay pa. Please give a concrete example.”
Kaya nga sinabi ko hypothetical ang examples. Anyway, I used absurd examples para makita mo kung gaano ka sablay yun mga naninindigan sa GNP/GDP as indicators of good economic health.
1. “How about a series of articles on the absence of a trickle-down effect in China, India, and Vietnam?”
No need, There is no noticeable trickle down effect in China. Vietnam, and India.
How can a trickle be noticeable? And why should people be satisfied with trickle?
2. “Are you sure that in your past write-ups, you never made a comparison of the Philippines with the so-called ASEAN tigers, based solely on GNP/GDP, and then conclude that the Philippines is a laggard?”
In my past write-ups, I don’t know if I’ve written comparing on anything comparing GDP/GNP of the Philippines to other countries unless it was to show that even in those measurements Gloria has nothing to brag about.
3. “So can i expect you and BusinessMirror not to extol economic wonders solely on GDP/GNP? And that from now on everytime I read BusinessMirror I wouldn’t read write-ups on comparisons between the Philippines and the economic wonders solely on GDP/GNP?”
As to my relationship with Business Mirror. I am not on their payroll. I write articles and they pay me per piece. I’ve never seen or been inside the Business Mirror office so no ome knows me there except the editor and her husband so I am not in a position to ask anyone to do anything.
4. “may i have a suggestion – why don’t you spread the word around the globe – that GDP/GNP figures shouldn’t be the bases for measuring growth? so you can help change the minds of foreign investors who still base their investment decisions on GDP/GNP, and thus invest in the Philippines?”
As to spreading the word about GDP/GNP around the globe, well the word is being spread already. That’s why you and I heard about it. I mean you didn’t hear from me first, did you?
5. ” But no increase in FDI will take place, because the 7.3 figure is highly disputed and hence undermined. The unsuspecting foreign investor who reads such write-ups will look elsewhere.”
I posted the observation of the European Chamber of Commerce in the previous post. You have also read what many foreign organizations have written about doing business in the Philippines. I doubt they based their findings from reading Philippine newspapers.
6. ” It is my favorite business paper.”
I too prefer the Business Mirror over the other business paper. It looks better, feels better and reads better.
The Ca t on Fri, 1st Feb 2008 11:40 pm
From the Law and Order people:
Neri was not indicted yet for the NBN deal. His warrant of arrest is more of a bench warrant, a warrant to compel a person who refuses to attend a hearing or investigation . It was not issued by the court but rather by the legislature and therefore can not be served if he does not leave his house.
To get into the house, the servers of the warrant of arrest should have a search warrant issued by the court which they do not have. Until then, Neri can choose to stay home and wait for the action of writ of certiorari that he filed.
UP n student on Sat, 2nd Feb 2008 12:08 am
The Business Mirror paper : “…feels better “ for doing what?
supremo on Sat, 2nd Feb 2008 12:23 am
Batang isip pala itong si Tandang JDV. Sabihin na kung ano ang gustong sabihin tungkol kay GMA. Paligoy-ligoy pa.
supremo on Sat, 2nd Feb 2008 12:28 am
Tanong para sa mga nasa Pilipinas.
Naramdaman niyo ba ang 7.3% growth ng GDP?
manuelbuencamino on Sat, 2nd Feb 2008 12:37 am
UPn,
“The Business Mirror paper : “…feels better “ for doing what?”
Hold it in your hand, feel the paper, then look of you at your fingers. Are they smudged with ink?
Masyado ka naman literal.
manuelbuencamino on Sat, 2nd Feb 2008 12:50 am
Cat,
You live in America so I assume you have a closer view of their presidential candidates… I’m curious…is it just me or have you also noticed that insane look in McCain’s eyes…and his body language…para bang he can explode at any time and he’s struggling to keep from doing so…That’s the impression I get whenever I see him on tv…
nashtoledo on Sat, 2nd Feb 2008 1:03 am
@manuelbuencamino
business mirror
does this paper have economic indicators (like the likod of the economist)
lolo mccain has damaged shoulder blades, he can’t even raise both arms over his head..
tsaka, ikaw ba naman ang ilublob sa tangke ng ebs sa vietnam noon. siempre you will have that look. Chuck Norris was still not a delta force soldier so he could not save McCain.
supremo on Sat, 2nd Feb 2008 1:18 am
‘McCain’s Temper May Become an Issue
By Scott Thomsen
Associated Press Writer
Sunday, Oct. 31, 1999; 6:38 p.m. EST
PHOENIX –– While rising in the GOP presidential polls, Sen. John McCain is facing questions about what some Arizona political leaders view as his quick temper – and whether it might hinder him as president.
In a front page article and separate editorial Sunday, The Arizona Republic said it wanted the nation to know about the “volcanic” temper McCain has unleashed on several top state officials.
Those who have been on the receiving end of a McCain uproar include Republican Gov. Jane Hull, former Republican Gov. Rose Mofford and former Democratic Mayor Paul Johnson of Phoenix…..’
supremo on Sat, 2nd Feb 2008 1:38 am
‘After seven contests, Romney is down 83-59, with 1,191 delegates needed for the nomination and 1,023 at stake Tuesday.’
I hope the choice will not be between Clinton and McCain.
anthony scalia on Sat, 2nd Feb 2008 1:42 am
manuelbuencamino,
salamat naman at you admitted your examples are absurd. what a way to prove the limitations of reliance on GDP/GNP
your examples are not examples meant for a neutral discussion! you already have a preconceived idea. you’re just looking for confirmation of your belief.
“No need, There is no noticeable trickle down effect in China. Vietnam, and India.”
then maybe they should not be called economic wonders.
“How can a trickle be noticeable?”
slowly. in time. pennies add up
“And why should people be satisfied with trickle?”
because that is how gains are spread. little by little. pennies add up.
“In my past write-ups, I don’t know if I’ve written comparing on anything comparing GDP/GNP of the Philippines to other countries unless it was to show that even in those measurements Gloria has nothing to brag about.”
so you admit also being a fan of GDP/GNP figures, before? to borrow from your previous statement: “Kasi Anthony thinking people have begun asking what do we mean by growth? What is GDP/GNP really measuring?” maybe some thinking people were able to change your mind
“As to my relationship with Business Mirror. I am not on their payroll. I write articles and they pay me per piece.”
that makes you a part of their payroll!
“As to spreading the word about GDP/GNP around the globe, well the word is being spread already. That’s why you and I heard about it. I mean you didn’t hear from me first, did you?”
oh no, its not spreading fast. at least, not to those who matter, the foreign investors, the people who rely on GDP/GNP for investment decisions
“I posted the observation of the European Chamber of Commerce in the previous post. You have also read what many foreign organizations have written about doing business in the Philippines. I doubt they based their findings from reading Philippine newspapers”
sorry pero sablay na reply. you asked if the 7.3 is a cause for celebration. i replied no, because the minority who undermined its integrity got front page coverage, scaring off much needed FDI sources.
may i remind you, that ECCP report you cited came out before the 7.3 figure was announced
UP n student on Sat, 2nd Feb 2008 1:52 am
@supremo : “Naramdaman niyo ba ang 7.3% growth ng GDP?”
The people who will feel the GDP growth will be business-owners. As the FIES survey reported, household income grew across all of the 10 deciles between 2003 and 2006. Household income as reported by the poorest decile-1 grew by 18.5%. The rich reported worse — decile-10 reported that their income grew only by 14.9%, and the middle-class (I’ll use deciles 4 thru
reported that their income grew by (approximately) 16.0%. But none of these deciles kept pace with a 6.15% inflation. (6.15% translates to 19.61% over 3 years. Decile-1 18.5% is lower than 19.61%)
Now, GDP (about $110B) is much more than household income (about $60B). GDP includes government purchases for sand-and-gravel for highways and airports or made-in-RP rifles for the military; GDP includes purchase (by Filipinos) of new homes and business expenditures for new factories, new call-centers, new mines. [Note: Dec2004 is when the Phil Supreme Court handed down a ruling permitting foreign investments in the Philippine mining sector.]
.
The business-owners felt the GDP-growth a whole more than the farmers and the suwelduhan.
UP n student on Sat, 2nd Feb 2008 1:53 am
type: I used deciles 4-thru-8 for “middle class”.
The Ca t on Sat, 2nd Feb 2008 2:02 am
I will forget that I like his picture as a POW. He looked like my favorite CSI character Nick Stokes when he was fresh from Vietnam prison.
He did not get his eyes from his mother who was more visible in the campaign than the wife Cindy who was formerly addicted to drugs and now is suffering from short memory lapses at age 53.
Must have acquired that “look” when the family tried to hide from public the scandal that his wife was involved in when she was addicted to painkillers that she resorted to theft.
She made that public only when there were attempts of blackmail.
anthony scalia on Sat, 2nd Feb 2008 2:12 am
HedgeFunder,
“REALLY?????? Where??????????”
EVERYWHERE!!!!!!!!!!
By the way, best wishes in your search for the most profitable hedge fund in the US now
UP n student on Sat, 2nd Feb 2008 2:16 am
I made a mistake when I said “purchase by Filipinos of new homes”. Doesn’t matter who buys, as long as the new home purchased is in the Philippines. So someone in Boston buying real estate in the Philippines increases the GDP (but only a portion of the purchase is “wages/salaries” and the rest (cost-of-material + other-cost-of-doing-business + profit) goes to GDP. The profit does not go to “wages/income” of business-owner because wages is already a line-item in the Profit-and-loss worksheet. So a Benign0 can get wealthier (and adding to GDP) without changing his declared income (which affects FIES and GINI).
anthony scalia on Sat, 2nd Feb 2008 2:17 am
supremo,
“Tanong para sa mga nasa Pilipinas.
Naramdaman niyo ba ang 7.3% growth ng GDP?”
Yes. Pero ramdam na ramdam yan pag na-sustain yang figure for at least a decade. Sa first year, di marami ang makakaramdam nito. Hopefully, it will create a momentum that can sustain an increase the following year, the year after next, and so on and so forth…
UP n student on Sat, 2nd Feb 2008 2:20 am
hedgeFund : go short… and short Europe or China. Or maybe you shouldn’t since practically everyone now knows.
anthony scalia on Sat, 2nd Feb 2008 2:21 am
UP n student,
“The business-owners felt the GDP-growth a whole more than
the farmers and the suwelduhan.”
True. Hopefully that motivates them to expand, hire more employees, resulting in a further decrease in unemployment
Bencard on Sat, 2nd Feb 2008 2:23 am
i claim no expertise on economic principles beyond that which directly affect my own household and business. that’s why i refrain from commenting on the merits or demerits of the competing views expressed in here regarding gdp/gnp or feis/fnes. i can relate to anthony scalia’s lament concerning certain people’s penchant for looking at the glass half-empty rather than half-full, and derive personal satisfaction from it. i think i can see where those people are coming from – anything to undercut the administration, including shooting themselves on the foot.
one thing amiss in the discussion of economy here, i think, is the frightening growth of the philippine population that is now between 80 – 90 million level. this about doubles the 45 million or so that i left behind in the halcyon days of early 70’s (before the harsh effect of the marcos’ reign was felt).
maintaining a state of survival, let alone pursuit of prosperity for all, under the circumstances, is like chasing rainbow, a trip to the horizon that is constantly receding. the national production of wealth and income, and the distribution thereof, cannot cope with the burgeoning number of poor, unproductive and uneducated citizens that produce more and more of their kind. there must be a way to address this problem before its too late for everyone in this land.
cvj on Sat, 2nd Feb 2008 2:26 am
The business-owners (at least those who are Filipino) also belong to households so are subject to the FIES which indicates that their incomes from their businesses (excluding capital gains as per hvrds) did not keep up with inflation. It still does not add up.
anthony scalia on Sat, 2nd Feb 2008 2:27 am
i hope the word “justice” is never mentioned in every news item on Neri’s warrant.
he is being summoned to an inquiry supposedly in aid of legislation. a legislative, not judicial, proceeding.
if its not a judicial proceeding, then Neri cannot obstruct “justice” in not showing up at the scheduled Senate hearing
UP n student on Sat, 2nd Feb 2008 2:36 am
@anthony : Your question, in fact, points to where GDP-growth affects “general welfare”. The increase in business-activity ( domestic production ) results in hiring of workers from new households being created.
Government-spending on a new flyover or a new highway means expenditures for sand-and-gravel as well as for worker-wages. New flyovers get counted in GDP.
nash on Sat, 2nd Feb 2008 2:45 am
@ Justice Anthony Scalia
“Yes. Pero ramdam na ramdam yan pag na-sustain yang figure for at least a decade.”
I DON’T think so.
We have the highest population growth rate in SEA, so pag-nasustain rin yang population growth rate with GDP na yan, wa rin.
So tama nga si Manong Bencard, let us not forget that we Filipinos make love a lot.
UP n student on Sat, 2nd Feb 2008 2:47 am
cvj: A sand-and-gravel business-owner whose business-profits quadrupled because of a government contract may choose to quadruple his salary (which then gets tracked by FIES). OR… he does not because he wants to retain the profits in order to further grow the business.
hvrds on Sat, 2nd Feb 2008 2:48 am
Exxon-Mobile total sales for the past year was $400 Billion plus. Net profit at $ 40 billion. +
This corporation is an integrated oil company. Their value added starts from exploration-extraction-refining to wholesaling and retailing.
Their total economic activity is almost four times the entire economic activity of the Philippine economy counting the labor value added of the OFW’s.
cvj on Sat, 2nd Feb 2008 2:54 am
The per capita GDP vs. FIES discussion is not a matter of ‘half-empty/half-full’. It’s whether we are inadvertently looking through a magnifying glass. Even former NEDA Chiefs Habito and Medalla have voiced concerns on the discrepancies between the two.
cvj on Sat, 2nd Feb 2008 3:26 am
It depends on the form of ownership. As per your previous comment (at February 1st, 2008 2:06 pm), household income includes income from entreprenurial activities which is defined as:
So if the sand-and-gravel business-owner is a sole proprietor, then his/her profits will be part of FIES whether or not it is withdrawn.
UP n student on Sat, 2nd Feb 2008 4:01 am
@cvj: You present a reasonable hypothesis. But I have no idea which portion of business owners were true to your hypothesis. FIES is voluntary-reporting. I have no numbers to discern whether the business-owners (who responded to the survey) were motivated by playfulness, pettiness, larceny, or desire to report accurately (because the survey is for the greater good).
hawaiianguy on Sat, 2nd Feb 2008 5:22 am
Anthony Scalia:
“didnt it occur to you, that the past GDP computations could be the less-than-accurate ones? just because one PhD observed that bases are changed, doesnt immediately mean that the latest figure is just a spin.”
Yes, I’m fully aware that ALL measurements are imperfect, not just GDP. But aren’t we talking here of GDP under Gloria’s regime? That it’s being compared with past performance? About the 7.3% rise that everyone in Malacanang is so ecstatic and celebratory about it?
Spin? Well it’s you who said it. It could or couldn’t be a spin, but the ball is in the govt side to explain, not Alba or anyone who isn’t privy to the way GDP (FIES, or whatever) is conceptualized, measured and implemented. Like you and me, we are only end-users of these data.
The GDP rise is good news indeed, but its peaking up doesn’t speak for everybody’s progress. Just listen to the litany of complaints among the poor and ordinary folks. Surely, it is for the govt, because it’s a material asset. It can borrow more money, attract more foreign investors, let outsiders mine our resources, etc.
“In showing that the Philippines is a laggard, the figures of other countries are resorted to, no mention of a ‘trickle down effect.’ Yet when it comes to evaluating the Philippines, the “trickle down effect†criterion is raised.â€
Frankly, I don’t know how to answer that. I didn’t bring that up here. What I did was tackle GDP and FIES, as others did. But then, they are two different measures of economic health. Am not sure if FIES is what you mean by “trickle down effect?”
hawaiianguy on Sat, 2nd Feb 2008 5:56 am
Bencard: “one thing amiss in the discussion of economy here, i think, is the frightening growth of the philippine population that is now between 80 – 90 million level.”
I like that statement. I wish you had the power to influence the decision makers (esp. the “ek-ekonomists,” term I borrow from Anthony Scalia) to configure a viable population policy, put it in the equation of growth, and make it work.
Definitely, population is a factor that weighs down most gains in the economic scene. Even if RP outpaces her neighbors economically (no matter how measured), it will remain a laggard as long as its population growth is almost steady.
It’s like running so fast down the road, but staying in about the same position as before.
Nash: “We have the highest population growth rate in SEA, so pag-nasustain rin yang population growth rate with GDP na yan, wa rin. “
Siguro tama si Malthus sa Pilipinas.
nash on Sat, 2nd Feb 2008 6:56 am
Aloha
Speaking of Malthus, perhaps our population will drop if, because of the poor sanitation that characterizes our very dense slums, we get an epidemic that sweeps across the nation….or Assumptionistas/Atenistas/Thomasians continue having unprotected sex in line with Roman Catholic Teaching and HIV sterilises our population….
But these scenarios are far fetched (Atenistas not being sexually appealing), I think we will quickly rise to 140M and then starve to death because we won’t have enough resources…
hawaiianguy on Sat, 2nd Feb 2008 7:03 am
Supremo:”“Tanong para sa mga nasa Pilipinas.
Naramdaman niyo ba ang 7.3% growth ng GDP?â€
Ilang sagot lang ito, taong 2007:
1) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4uw4sINdHyA&feature=related
2) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wyd2cIZzKn8&feature=related
3) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2prN5fA7sgo&feature=related
4) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8dB6l8yPv8&feature=related
At tone-tonelada pa.
hawaiianguy on Sat, 2nd Feb 2008 7:12 am
At ang isang ito ay para kay Manong Bencard. Nakakaintindi pa naman pala ng Tagalog, eh.
Population control ang isang magandang topic dito.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mpkVRgZGqFI&feature=related
inodoro ni emilie on Sat, 2nd Feb 2008 7:59 am
accused being cia? arrgh, has resume building gone to the extreme here? what a spin!
nash on Sat, 2nd Feb 2008 8:23 am
LMAO!
hawaiianguy on Sat, 2nd Feb 2008 8:48 am
Supremo:â€â€œTanong para sa mga nasa Pilipinas.
Naramdaman niyo ba ang 7.3% growth ng GDP?â€
Try mo ito. Marami pang iba (moderated kasi ang naunang post ko)-
1)www.youtube.com/watch?v=4uw4sINdHyA&feature=related
2)www.youtube.com/watch?v=8kGmBcRIvUE
supremo on Sat, 2nd Feb 2008 10:21 am
hawaiianguy,
I appreciate the youtube videos. Maybe they should be addressed to those people who think 7.3% growth is good enough.
hawaiianguy on Sat, 2nd Feb 2008 10:33 am
Supremo, copy.
anthony scalia on Sat, 2nd Feb 2008 10:38 am
nash,
“I DON’T think so.”
you don’t think so because you put up another factor – population growth.
i think for the last decade, the population growth rate is less than 4%. for the last few years, GDP growth rate is slightly bigger than the population growth rate
as long as the GDP growth rate is sustainable (for at least a decade) and faster than the population growth rate, as what is happening for the past few years, then mararamdaman na yan in the long run.
It is a good thing you mentioned population growth rate, because that factor is surprisingly absent in all discussions of poverty and economic development.
If the Philippine population growth rate (for the past 3-4 decades) is slower than Japan’s, our economy could sustain endless people power, repeated Manila Pen circuses, countless rallies, media pontificating, multiple term Erap presidencies, Mayor Binay for life, etc.
anthony scalia on Sat, 2nd Feb 2008 11:00 am
hawaiianguy,
“Yes, I’m fully aware that ALL measurements are imperfect, not just GDP. But aren’t we talking here of GDP under Gloria’s regime? That it’s being compared with past performance? About the 7.3% rise that everyone in Malacanang is so ecstatic and celebratory about it?”
look, if it will make you feel better, i don’t (and we all should not) give the credit for the 7.3 growth to gloria. hats off to the ordinary Pinoys who worked to produce that figure. After a few seconds of celebration, its back to work for them (us), to ensure that the 7.3 is sustainable
“It could or couldn’t be a spin, but the ball is in the govt side to explain, not Alba or anyone who isn’t privy to the way GDP (FIES, or whatever) is conceptualized, measured and implemented. Like you and me, we are only end-users of these data.”
as per inidoro ni emilie, the government has, in fact, given an explanation:
“here’s a url worth visiting from nscb explaining the breaks in gdp links:
http://www.nscb.gov.ph/sna/2007/1stQ2007/2007tnq_1.asp
also worth reading, in the vein of the reactions above:
http://www.nscb.gov.ph/announce/ForTheRecord/20july07_reliability.asp
it makes me wonder – if the other countries report their GDP growth, do their governments still apologize for the figures?
“The GDP rise is good news indeed, but its peaking up doesn’t speak for everybody’s progress. Just listen to the litany of complaints among the poor and ordinary folks. Surely, it is for the govt, because it’s a material asset. It can borrow more money, attract more foreign investors, let outsiders mine our resources, etc.”
my friend, did i ever mention that the 7.3 is the ultimate destination?
the attraction of foreign investors is for job creation. so is mining, which promises to be much bigger than the outsourcing industry (with safeguards in place)
“Frankly, I don’t know how to answer that. I didn’t bring that up here. What I did was tackle GDP and FIES, as others did. But then, they are two different measures of economic health. Am not sure if FIES is what you mean by “trickle down effect?—
I am not familiar with FIES. I am just borrowing “trickle down effect” from the opposition who use figures to put down the country, but when the country produces the same figures, the opposition uses a new metric – “trickle down effect”.
DJB Rizalist on Sat, 2nd Feb 2008 11:35 am
FACT: The top economies of the world have the widest gaps between the Rich and the Poor, because they also have the highest average levels of income and wealth.
It’s not the Gap, stupid. It’s the Mean.
The reason for the wide Gap in the most progressive economies is their markets strongly and extravagantly reward their most innovative and productive investors, “the Rich” — who are actually responsible for pushing up the mean!
Dig this: in the US, the Gap is now ten times wider than a hundred years ago, but the Mean is also seven times higher, so that the “poor” today are better off than Middle Class back then, not in comparative, but absolute income and wealth.
But they hardly ever teach this stuff about the the Bell Curve (Mean and Standard Deviation) to the class struggle crowd.
DevilsAdvc8 on Sat, 2nd Feb 2008 11:37 am
uncontrolled population growth?
we can thank our religious hypocrites for that.
scrimping on social services yet look how they spend that war chest attacking population control policies.
Biazon was right when he was quoted by Pat as saying that any attempts to introduce population control would be fruitless, adding that opposition against it is well organized and well-funded.
well-funded indeed. that’s the church for you! preferential treatment for the poor!
The Ca t on Sat, 2nd Feb 2008 12:07 pm
why don’t you dig the archives.
sheesh.
UP n student on Sat, 2nd Feb 2008 12:18 pm
@Devi-8: So did you see the latest from the CBCP? Here is a cut-and-paste from CBCPnews:
MANILA, 24 January 2008— In Pampanga, the case was an 18-year-old boy who married his 22-year-old pregnant girlfriend. In Cavite, it was a 20-year-old girl who married her brother’s 23-year old friend and then bore his child.
Sadly, however, both couples eventually ended in separation.
These stories spurred a Catholic bishop to urge legislators to change the country’s marriage laws to prevent teens from marrying so young.
Archbishop Oscar Cruz, head of the CBCP National Appellate Matrimonial Tribunal, sought the modification of the law during the 3rd Bishops’-Legislators’ Caucus at a hotel in Pasay City Thursday.
Cruz asked the lawmakers from the Senate and the Congress to raise the minimum legal marrying of 18 years to remedy “broken marriages.â€
The age requirement for marriage needs to be adjusted, he said, because most people aged 18 are still “psychologically unprepared and emotionally unstable.â€
“Getting married at 18 could be disadvantageous since a person at such an age is still unripe or incapable of raising a family,†said the Lingayen-Dagupan archbishop.
Teenagers are getting fellow-teenagers pregnant, and Bishop Cruz says “..raise the marriage age.” The solution is “..stop teen-age pregnancy!!” Condoms now!!!!
inodoro ni emilie on Sat, 2nd Feb 2008 12:35 pm
you mean in this thread: http://www.quezon.ph/?p=1418 ?
point to me where the ‘you-are-one-cia-agent’ allusion is made, other than a caveat issued not to rely heavily(especially if one purports to be an academician) on cia generated report because it makes for a bias reference (despite and inspite of the factbook’s accuracy, go figure out why). however, just because one uses the cia factbook should not delude the person to suspect that s/he has been suspected of working for the cia. paranoia sinking in?
sheesh^1
———
^1 sheesh: a term regularly used by a self-absorbed resume builder.
cvj on Sat, 2nd Feb 2008 1:35 pm
DJB, for purposes of sustained economic growth, it is the standard deviation (aka inequality) at the point of economic takeoff that matters. That point has been made by neoclassical economists, like Amsden, Rodrik and Alesina among others. They differ on what kind of inequality matters (e.g. land inequality or income inequality), but they all acknowledge that it is a factor. No need to look to the ‘class struggle’ crowd for this line of inquiry.
cvj on Sat, 2nd Feb 2008 1:50 pm
Anthony (at 11:00am), the explanation in those links assert [the obvious fact] that GDP and FIES measure different things. That is not an explanation at all especially since the ones who noticed the discrepancy are themselves former heads of NEDA themselves (Monsod, Habito and Medalla). They would have been aware of such differences before voicing out such suspicions.
On the speculation by NEDA Secretary General Romulo Virola that discrepancies are accounted for by the survey respondents lying, that is at best a cop out on his part.
DevilsAdvc8 on Sat, 2nd Feb 2008 3:20 pm
UPn, our bishops live in an unreal world where they view the outside world illogically. they cannot bridge the gap between faith and reason. the church’s most famous thinker (St. Thomas Aquinas) was able to do so, and yet these relics of the inquisition continue to insist on some policies by incorrectly reading the teachings of Christ. these are the same kind of people who prosecuted Copernicus (for his heliocentric model of the solar system). these are the kind of people who use God’s name yet fail to see that their acts run counter to God’s design. a century from now, we’ll hear this same church (if it is still around) apologizing for delaying humanity’s route to the golden age. just as it apologized (a hundred years too late) for prosecuting Copernicus.
i’ll never understand why these illogical priests obstruct a policy designed to uplift the poor from poverty. maybe they want everyone to be poor. after all, i keep hearing these same demagouges utter how suffering is the only way to know God.
what a bunch of fucks. if you want to help people, then do it in the real world and not on some metaphysical plane. God is not dead. God is real, God is physical not just spiritual. and for pete’s sakes, let’s not wait for the afterlife to enjoy God’s kingdom!
DevilsAdvc8 on Sat, 2nd Feb 2008 3:30 pm
erratum: it was Galileo who was actually prosecuted by the church, for espousing the copernican view of the world. he was charged with heresy and put under house arrest for the rest of his life.
he got off lightly. another copernican, Giordano Bruno, was also prosecuted, burned at the stake as a heretic.
DevilsAdvc8 on Sat, 2nd Feb 2008 3:51 pm
on education, here’s to those English-is-the-key-to-success believers
this is the first part
http://opinion.inquirer.net/inquireropinion/columns/view/20080202-116321/The-first-language-bridge-to-Filipino-and-English
Commentary
The ‘first language’ bridge to Filipino and English
By Greg and Diane Dekker
cvj on Sat, 2nd Feb 2008 4:37 pm
Devils, i agree and from what i’ve observed, opposition to the Catholic Church’s policy towards popoulation control and public health (aka anti-HIV measures) is one thing that there is an emerging consensus in this otherwise divided blog.
As for the Inquisition, i think the ‘Left’ are the new ‘Copernicans’ thanks to Fr. Intengan.
DevilsAdvc8 on Sat, 2nd Feb 2008 4:40 pm
taena sa katangahan talaga. raising marrying age will not stop teenage pregnancy. it’ll only result to an increased in unmarried pregnant teens. that’s rational thinking for Bishop Cruz. booo!
raise awareness, not marrying age you fool! contrary to your jurassic thinking, teaching sex education does not raise promiscuity but rather stunts it. as studies have shown, it is those who are better educated who marry later, get pregnant later, and have less kids. what does that tell you? awareness of the consequences of sex does not invite kids to experiment with it but rather becomes a deterring factor in premarital sex (which you religious freaks are so rabid abt). so how’s that for your opposition to sex education? you’re the ones allowing these youngsters to wallow in their ignorance resulting in their practicing pre-marital sex.
logical lang naman eh. most who engage in pre-marital sex are those never educated abt it. so where do they turn to learn? thru experience! amfufu.
yes! go on serving the Lord in helping the poor that way. make more mouths to feed, increase poverty, and glorify in the gloriousness of a God who exalts suffering.
IMO, you’re the blasphemers and heretics. God is a loving God, and He DOES NOT want His children suffering.
nash on Sat, 2nd Feb 2008 4:51 pm
@Justice Anthony Scalia;.
Napakataas po na population growth rate ang “the population growth rate is less than 4%.” Plus factor in the ~10% unemployment. That 7.5% GDP will never catch up. (Especially since we also have the most honest bureaucracy in the world).
Dapat siguro si Healing Priest Suarez should sterilise all those people during his so called healing eklat.
And we should start taxing the Church, once and for all for the cost of social services.
DevilsAdvc8 on Sat, 2nd Feb 2008 4:56 pm
ang pinakamagandang idea narinig ko in a long while! that should stop all those other pretenders who set-up ministries just to avoid taxes.
God! using God’s name to enrich oneself…
yes. pharisees are hypocrites, just as Christ said.
cvj on Sat, 2nd Feb 2008 5:02 pm
Nash, seriously, I don’t think forced sterilization is humane, especially the kind that Get Real-er Manuel Gallego III advocates. However, if we must go down that path, then the most efficient route would be to start with the politicians. That way, the problem of political dynasties will also be solved, and there would be higher probability that stolen funds (assuming it’s not lost in some Swiss bank) will eventually find its way back to the general public.
justice league on Sat, 2nd Feb 2008 5:19 pm
Nash,
I do understand you to a point. But I read somewhere that Muslims don’t like to pay realty tax in Mindanao since they view their land as a sort of gift from Allah.
If tax is to be levied on the Church, it should at least be on all “Churches”.
Cvj,
Regarding forced sterilization; Margaret Sanger was quite a proponent of that. She is either a heroine or a villainess depending on one’s stance.
nash on Sat, 2nd Feb 2008 5:26 pm
@cvj
Oo naman. Hopefully, we can severe the iron hand of the Church that strangles our population control plans – better education, and freedom of choice.
Having read the CBCP thingy posted above, I can’t help but say those bishops are idiots. I can’t believe we are reverting to the middle ages. Well, I guess that is not surprising given that Pope Benedict is probably up their among the ranks of really bad popes. Kahit i-excommunicate na niya ako, I think he is more alter-devil than alter-christ…
nash on Sat, 2nd Feb 2008 5:29 pm
@justice league
but of course. ALL churches, no exemptions. Nagkataon lang na ang kulto ng Romano Katoliko is the most meddlesome.
DevilsAdvc8 on Sat, 2nd Feb 2008 5:41 pm
nash, jl
roman catholic church most meddlesome? yes. and islamic fundamentalists most homicidally insane. imagine if we attempt to tax them too.
they’ll blame it on the christians oppressing them some more.
though i agree. we cannot tax one religious order and exempt another one. it should be all or none at all.
one good thing abt this tax idea? it’ll raise gov’t revenues by cosmic bounds! at sana naman mabawasan na ang mga katulad ni Soriano na nagpapayaman lang sa relihiyon at wala naman bahid ng pagka makadiyos.
DevilsAdvc8 on Sat, 2nd Feb 2008 5:44 pm
expect stiff opposition form the church. haha, baka finally yung mga bishops na sumuporta ke arroyo e biglang magbago ng posisyon.
hahaha. pera-pera nga naman. walang Diyos pag pera pinag-uusapan. konti lang ang kilala kong pari na tunay talagang isinasabuhay ang pangaral ni Kristo.
hindi ko nilalahat. tintira ko lang yung masasamang bunga. di naman masama ang Katolisismo. ang mga nagpapalakad lang nito.
nash on Sat, 2nd Feb 2008 5:47 pm
“islamic fundamentalists” – are just as bad as christian fundamentalists. Fundamentalism, bad in any shape/form/denomination.
Sigh, yan ang problema sa religion. Anyone can hi-jack it.
Kaya dapat, we should eliminate religion in government.
nash on Sat, 2nd Feb 2008 5:52 pm
Can someone please tell me why I’m reading on Forbes list that Villar is worth $900M, and yet his SAL says he’s worth PHP900M???
I understand that he might have quoted 1970 prices of his properties to come up with his net worth, but surely there is some form of tax evasion going on here…
Why are Senators and Congressmen allowed to quote non-current prices for their properties?
puzzled,
qwert on Sat, 2nd Feb 2008 6:24 pm
“Cruz asked the lawmakers from the Senate and the Congress to raise the minimum legal marrying of 18 years to remedy “broken marriages.”
This is not to defend the Catholic church but to be fair with the bishop and this is just based from what UP n student copy/pasted(12:18 p.m.). I think what Bishop Cruz wants is not to make marriage a solution to unwanted pregnancies. You know how it is especially with parents (kailangan panagutan ng lalaki ang kanyang ginawa), I think , ang gusto ni Bishop Cruz ay huwag papanagutin sa pamamagitan ng kasal ang isang “irispunsable” dahil nauuwi lang sa pag-hihiwalay. So,raising the minimum legal marrying age would prevent such ” napasubo” scenario. The proposal has nothing to do with pre-marital sex since virginity does not equate to being responsible.
nash on Sat, 2nd Feb 2008 6:31 pm
It really does not follow. And Cruz should really just shut up.
…so we should also raise the voting age, the age of conscription….
UP n student on Sat, 2nd Feb 2008 7:53 pm
The Bishop could have said “ knowledge will set the children free “
then ask GMA to hurry up with better sex education for the youth.
nash on Sat, 2nd Feb 2008 8:06 pm
My god, what did Gretchen Baretto see in Dody Puno? Can he afford those daily trips to Luis Vuitton?
Hmm, I smell a rat here. Sabagay, being DPWH head makes one at par with owning PLDT shares…
vic on Sat, 2nd Feb 2008 9:58 pm
Cruz asked the lawmakers from the Senate and the Congress to raise the minimum legal marrying of 18 years to remedy “broken marriages.â€
qwert, age of consent in Canada is 14, but sex Education start even earlier than that, usually at age 12 and school counsellors are available for youths who may not be comfortable talking about sex with their family or parents.. for the purpose of the law, couples in common law relationship for at least 3 years continuously are considered married, be they were wed or not or opposite or same sex…
The Ca t on Sat, 2nd Feb 2008 10:22 pm
Grow up repository of crap. Since you have no expertise to boot but your “intelligent opinion”, you’re like a juvenile bully, mahilig lang magparinig. Gawa lang yan nang hindi makapagdebate sa harapan. Sheesh.
Napahiya ka lang dahil makasagot tungkol sa economics, panay ka na ngawa.
The Ca t on Sat, 2nd Feb 2008 10:36 pm
Dig more dirt from archives inidoro to live up to your name. I think that was the time when i was still totally ignoring your obnoxious handle in this c.box.
As to my “resume building” I do not have to prove anything to you. I don’t even know your background but for sure you cannot debate with me in economics. KAya dinadaan mo sa personalan.
The Ca t on Sat, 2nd Feb 2008 10:40 pm
A promise of marriage perhaps that TC cannot give to LA GRETA. He won’t dare go against his mom, Imelda and divorce his wife Denise.
But Dody’s promises had been long broken for the beauty queens who were linked to him romantically and bore him natural-born children.
nash on Sat, 2nd Feb 2008 10:56 pm
“but for sure you cannot debate with me in economics”
PLEASE stop this already. It’s not healthy. It’s lazy debate.
The Ca t on Sat, 2nd Feb 2008 11:16 pm
Nash, you tell that “lady” na mahilig magparinig. I think ignoring him does not work. Kulang sa pansin.
manuelbuencamino on Sat, 2nd Feb 2008 11:51 pm
Anthony scalia,
I am not on their payroll because I am not a company employee.
“payroll |ˈpÄËŒrÅl|
noun
a list of a company’s employees and the amount of money they are to be paid : there are just three employees on the payroll.
• the total amount of wages and salaries paid by a company to its employees : small employers with a payroll of less than $45,000.”
2. Pennies add uo but your ideas don’t. People who live on trickles end up piss-poor.
3. Absurd examples are necessary to demonstrate the absurdity of your blind faith in measurements that do not give you an indication of what is being measured. There is a right GDP/GNP and a wrong one. Goods and services is right, pussy and services is wrong.
justice league on Sun, 3rd Feb 2008 12:02 am
Nash, DevilsAdvoc8,
Back in 2006, while discussing a separate Mindanao republic; Rodrigo Duterte was supposed to have remarked that he would opt for a Muslim president (in the Mindanao republic) because of the fact that majority of firearms that are not the property of the military and police are with the Moro people and the communist rebels.
He further stated that (obviously referring to Mindanao) “An ordinary Christian does not have a gun. There are those who have but these are small in terms of number and power and not the rifle-propelled grenades and grenade launchers that are found in Moro land,”.
Please do note that he said “Moro people” and not Moro rebels.
His statements implied a lot.
Should this proposal actually go forward; hopefully there won’t be a severe selective enforcement.
DevilsAdvc8 on Sun, 3rd Feb 2008 12:26 am
jl, moros value their guns. A LOT.
i’ve heard it said they value it more than their wives. they’re a fierce bunch. mindanao never being conquered even by the americans. a testament to their fierceness.
but you know that a proposal to tax ALL the churches would draw reprisals from the islamic sector. and im not talking abt “people power” that its christian counterpart might launch.
so a president who’ll go through with this has to have extreme political as well as personal will. not to mention a very powerful army capable of crushing any and all resistance.
anyway, that’s just wishful thinking on nash’s and my part.
DevilsAdvc8 on Sun, 3rd Feb 2008 1:22 am
caught it in Slate, searched everywhere online, found it, watched it. didn’t vomit but was pretty much disgusted. won’t post the link. it’s Manolo’s call. it’s not on youtube. the original (that started all this) must’ve been taken down pretty fast by youtube. but too little, too late. the phenomenon had started.
wikipedia has an article abt it, but also posts no links to it.
what is it?
2 girls 1 cup.
that’s all you need to know.
UP n student on Sun, 3rd Feb 2008 1:53 am
Mindanao story that is in UK TELEGRAPH newspaper:
Filipina bride ‘paid hitmen to murder pastor’
By Richard Edwards
Last Updated: 2:23am GMT 13/12/2007
A baptist minister who married a Filipina woman 39 years his junior has allegedly been murdered by hitmen hired by the bride.
Pastor David Brash, 62, was apparently battered to death and his body dumped in a swamp in the Philippines only 21 days after he left the UK for a new life with his young wife.
A police chief on the island of Mindanao said the pastor’s 23-year-old bride, Analyn Batalyer, confessed to detectives that she paid two hitmen £350 to have him murdered.
DevilsAdvc8 on Sun, 3rd Feb 2008 1:57 am
thank you Pat, for writing what I can’t express fluently. serves Cruz and those crazy conservatives right. they should be prime candidates for Gallego’s forced sterilization. let not the breed of irrational people spread!
mlq3 on Sun, 3rd Feb 2008 3:09 am
devils, “never really conquered by the americans”?? where on earth… did you get that idea?
http://philippinesfreepress.wordpress.com/2006/07/30/re-constructing-colonial-philippines-1900-1910/
qwert on Sun, 3rd Feb 2008 8:29 am
vic,
Thanks for the info.
inodoro ni emilie on Sun, 3rd Feb 2008 9:04 am
hawaiianguy on Sun, 3rd Feb 2008 9:21 am
Anthony Scalia: “Thus, if political leaders are trying to maximize GDP and GDP is not a good measure, you are maximizing the WRONG THING and it can be counterproductive.†– Joseph Stiglitz
“Aren’t you aware that the yardstick used by almost everybody in ascertaining good economic health is figures/GDP/GNP?”
Well, Dr. Stiglitz is the right person to answer your query. But listening to him makes me guess how he may respond: GDP is a WRONG measure – it ascertains BAD economic health. (Of course, he was not even referring to RP, but all countries infatuated with GDP.)
UP n student on Sun, 3rd Feb 2008 10:33 am
q3: Thanks for that link to the Abinales treatise on the Philippines 1900-1910. Both Bencard and cvj should read this. As the historian states:
The Americans were actually responsible for giving territorial reality to Las Islas Filipinas, the basis of the future Republic., he also cited instances of American brutality during the pacification campaign, e.g. the “howling wilderness” of Samar island. The article also stated that debatable as to whether the Aguinaldo Malolos Republic and other revolts, “had they all succeeded, whether would unite under one contiguous territory. Already when the first American troops landed in Negros Island, Negrenses were threatening to create their own republic.”
The article you provided the link to is also NOT the only article I’ve seen which cites that (except for sporadic incidents or pockets of resistance) Muslim Mindanao appreciated the arrival and presence of American military forces and the American administration.
The article stated that
… cooperation extended by Muslim and Cordilleran leaders to the Americans. They regarded colonial rule (under Americans) as a means of protecting themselves against Christians and “lowlanders.†American military officials reciprocated this cooperation by resisting the efforts of Filipinos to extend their power to the “special provinces.†A working relationship eventually developed between these community leaders and the Americans whereby the former were given minor posts in the provincial government (“tribal wards†in the case of the Muslims) in exchange for agreeing to recognize American sovereignty.”
But I have a question. What was happening in the background so that as early as
1905, the Americans proceeded to prepare the grounds for eventual self-rule.
Four territories the US “received” from Spain after Spanish-American-War — Cuba, Guam, Puerto Rico, PHilippines. Cuba was returned to Cubans because the US Congress directed the US President return Cuba to Cubans. Of the remaining three, both Guam and Puerto Rico are under US, in fact, their citizens were granted US citizenship just as the Jones Act was getting written.
I don’t think Guam or Puerto Ricans are any more special or less special than Filipinos, so what happened?
UP n student on Sun, 3rd Feb 2008 10:36 am
Q3: My question may have gotten garbled, but the question is why did the US, as early as 1905 began to prepare to depart from the Philippines? The US did not do this for Guam nor Puerto Rico, in fact, the US instead chose to grant US citizenship to the other territories.
DevilsAdvc8 on Sun, 3rd Feb 2008 11:24 am
mlq3, idk. i think i read it somewhere. yeah, mindanao was occupied, but the americans made some kind of an agreement with them, didn’t they? some agreement wherein they’ll be kind of left alone as long as they recognize american sovereignty or something. it’s what i remember anyway.
i’ll read the link you posted for more info…
much tnx for the correction.
cvj on Sun, 3rd Feb 2008 11:35 am
UPn (at 10:33am), i commented as much in an earlier thread:
http://www.quezon.ph/?p=1632#comment-680551
The Americans did contribute to the process of our coming together as Filipinos.
hawaiianguy on Sun, 3rd Feb 2008 11:41 am
Devils, yeah, I think you are referring to the pact the Americans made with the Sultan of Sulu. They abrogated this a few years later. But then, they continued “paying” the sultan according to the treaty (it was never ratified by the US Senate). Meanwhile, some defiant datus continued to fight the American colonial govt there.
On mainland Mindanao, many Moro elites “collaborated” with the US colonial regime, even petitioned for the complete or permanent annexation of Moroland by the US. But there were also Moro datus who fiercely resisted the occupying forces. Of course, they all lost. But they fought gallantly until the last man.
This is perhaps what people mean by, “the Moros were not conquered.”
mlq3 on Sun, 3rd Feb 2008 12:25 pm
upn, i guess it’s a matter of weighing strategic and economic costs. keeping puerto rico and guam made sense militarily; economically, they weren’t a threat. the philippines didn’t pan out as the gateway to china the americans first imagined and was a problem in terms of the sugar industry competing with beet interests in the usa and sugar interests in cuba. the anti-imperialist league had also opposed annexation of the philippines partly on racial grounds -which might suggest why, without a white-led republic asking for annexation as in texas and hawaii, puerto rico and guam remain territories and aren’t seriously being considered as future states.
mlq3 on Sun, 3rd Feb 2008 12:32 pm
devils, my own research on the matter only goes asd far as:
http://www.quezon.ph/?page_id=1516
i think this paper by a moro lawyer is a good read:
http://morolaw.blogspot.com/2007/10/examining-nexus-between-philippine.html
he answers, for example, why it was that until the 1950s the moros were pretty well integrated into the national political system, but then things started breaking down:
UP n student on Sun, 3rd Feb 2008 12:33 pm
cvj: I was more into saying that the cited article had things you would want to hear (“howling wilderness”) and Bencard would want to hear (“threading the Islands into one”). My real question now is how come? Within three administrations, the US began to prepare to leave the Philippines to Filipinos. So it took longer, but the US did what (by the article) the US said it would — leave the Philippines. Why? Why the Philippines, not Puerto Rico nor Guam?
mlq3 on Sun, 3rd Feb 2008 12:46 pm
upn these articles from the independence law debates in the 30s might give insights as to why independence was as attractive to the americans as it was to the filipinos:
Dec. 24, 1932:
http://philippinesfreepress.wordpress.com/2008/01/16/committee-thrashing-out-details-of-independence-december-24-1932/
Jan. 7, 1933:
http://philippinesfreepress.wordpress.com/2008/01/16/nacionalista-party-split-january-7-1933/
Jan. 28, 1933:
http://philippinesfreepress.wordpress.com/2008/01/28/independence-in-the-balance-january-28-1933/
Apr. 22, 1933:
http://philippinesfreepress.wordpress.com/2006/04/22/quezon-and-osmena-april-22-1933/
and after, concerns on economic adjustment, 1939:
http://philippinesfreepress.wordpress.com/2006/11/06/primer-on-the-plebiscite-october-21-1939/
see also my article on the matter,
http://philippinesfreepress.wordpress.com/2006/03/10/institutionalizing-state-interventionism-may-1996-2/
UP n student on Sun, 3rd Feb 2008 2:05 pm
Mlq3: thanks for the sample links. Luts of stuff, including the humor on the primer on the plebiscite. I, for now, rest with the renewed awareness that the US obtained 5 territories not contiguous to the “mainland” – Cuba, Philippines, Guam, Puerto Rico, Hawaii.
…The Abinales treatise, though, is still interesting —that by 1905 or within 7 years after Treaty of Paris, the Americans began preparing to leave the Philippines for Filipinos. That sentence kind of makes sense if only from the perspective that the Philippines being halfway around the world is far less attractive to American adventurers of that era as compared to, say, Arizona (which, in feb 1912 was the 48th and last of the contiguous states admitted to the Union).
cvj on Sun, 3rd Feb 2008 2:18 pm
UPn, i think Filipino resistance did play a part in their decision.
UP n student on Sun, 3rd Feb 2008 2:21 pm
I am sure there was racism — brown-skinned ain’t white-skinned — but racism to me is a weak explanation of differences between Philippines-USA and PuertoRico-USA relations in the early 1900’s. Saying there was a white-supremacist movement in Puerto Rico in 1917 seems a stretch, yet in 1917 the Jones-Shafroth Act provided US citizenship to Puerto Rico.
UP n student on Sun, 3rd Feb 2008 2:43 pm
A cut-and-paste from Wikipedia:
The first bill seeking to grant the Philippine Islands autonomy and eventual independence was introduced in 1912 by William Atkinson Jones, a Democrat from Virginia, chairman of the U.S. House Committee on Insular Affairs. It planned to grant the Philippine Islands independence on July 4, 1921. The bill passed committee deliberations, but it did not progress from there.
A second version of the bill which did not set a definite date for the granting of independence was filed in 1914 by Representative Jones. Several amendments were introduced to the bill, as the Republicans tried to defeat it. It was only passed after the preamble was revised to include a statement that: “… it has always been, the purpose of the people of the United States to withdraw their sovereignty over the Philippine Islands and to recognize their independence as soon as a stable government can be established therein; …”.
It was signed into law by of the United States President Woodrow Wilson on August 29, 1916 .
..
Then a year later, the same US congress that said “..withdraw their sovereignty over the Philippine Islands” passed the Jones-Shafroth Act which provided US citizenship to Puerto Rico.
—
By the way, is there a monument in Manila to William Atkinson Jones?
mlq3 on Sun, 3rd Feb 2008 2:48 pm
p, it would depend on what the hierarchy of racism was at that time, how malays figured in the pecking order, with wasps on top, then possibly today’s latinos next, etc. and where in the states, i do recall older filipinos recalling that in the east filipinos were “honorary whites” at the time california was passing anti-miscegination laws forbidding whites to marry filipinos. i seem to recall, as well, that in the south filipinos could use the whites-only bathrooms and drinking fountains.
mlq3 on Sun, 3rd Feb 2008 2:50 pm
upn: yes, the jones bridge.
also, re: above, recall opposition to the annexation of the philippines was led by the democrats, who made it part of william jennings bryan’s failed presidential bid vs. mckinley. thereafter, it remained a plank on the democratic platform. when teddy roosevelt split the taft vote and wilson won, the democrats could then fulfill their party platform re: eventual phil. independence. wilson was the guy who made national self-determination a part of american foreign policy, particularly in post ww1 europe.
nash on Sun, 3rd Feb 2008 5:45 pm
I have a moro acquaintance who told me that to keep power within their families, they kept education and access to education to themselves. So the Moro “elites” are highly educated (studying all over the world on US Scholarship Grants) but prefer that a large ‘mass’ of willing ’subjects’ still exists
Anecdotally, one of my non-’royalty’ Moro friends tells me this joke “Scholarship for the poor Moro? Asaan? Eh sila-sila (old ruling families) rin lang naman ang nakakakuha ng mga postgrad scholarship na yan. If you are not one of those families, its rare to get those scholarships…”
anthony scalia on Sun, 3rd Feb 2008 7:12 pm
hawaiianguy,
“Well, Dr. Stiglitz is the right person to answer your query. But listening to him makes me guess how he may respond: GDP is a WRONG measure – it ascertains BAD economic health. (Of course, he was not even referring to RP, but all countries infatuated with GDP.)”
I was just stating the reality that almost everyone still clings to the use of GDP/GNP as bases for investment decisions. Right or wrong, that is still the mindset.
Its so hard to tell investors not to base their million-dollar investment decisions on GDP/GNP alone. And I dont think a Nobel laureate can persuade them from changing their minds, at least not for now.
After all, unlike Nobel laureates, investors have what Americans would call ’skin in the game’ – their millions of dollars are at risk.
anthony scalia on Sun, 3rd Feb 2008 8:41 pm
nash,
“Napakataas po na population growth rate ang “the population growth rate is less than 4%.†Plus factor in the ~10% unemployment. That 7.5% GDP will never catch up. (Especially since we also have the most honest bureaucracy in the world)”
er, in computing the unemployment rate, the base figure is not the entire population, but the employable segment of the population.
unless you’re following the formula of Ibon that all OFWs are deemed unemployed
anthony scalia on Sun, 3rd Feb 2008 9:01 pm
manuelbuencamino,
“I am not on their payroll because I am not a company employee”
nice try, giving a strict technical definition of payroll. if you are receiving a sort of payment on a regular basis, regardless of working relationship, you are on the payroll
“Pennies add up but your ideas don’t.”
it takes one to know one, my friend.
and may i remind you again, that at one point in the past, you were just convinced by thinking people to change your mind on GDP/GNP (borrowing your own words)
“People who live on trickles end up piss-poor”"
oh really? you haven’t tried the combination of saving and investing. one unsolicited advice – read the classic “The Wealthy Barber” you can get a synopsis and a review on Amazon.com.
“Absurd examples are necessary to demonstrate the absurdity of your blind faith in measurements that do not give you an indication of what is being measured. There is a right GDP/GNP and a wrong one. Goods and services is right, pussy and services is wrong”
Ill say it again – at least you admitted that your own examples are absurd.
pray tell me who put up the ‘whorehouse’ argument.
blind faith? in what? thats what happens if a post isn’t read properly – right or wrong, GDP/GNP is used by some people who matter – the investors – in making investment decisions. Investors will no longer look at the story behind the figures, just at the figures themselves.
do not indicate what is really measured? lets hear your alternative way of measuring the sames things GDP is supposed to measure.
I have conversations with people who have ’skin in the game’ – those who have actually invested here – and they point to increasing business activities the past few years.
Admit it, you are looking at reality with ‘Hello Garci’ lens
UP n student on Sun, 3rd Feb 2008 10:34 pm
mlq3: Good point about racism. Racism is practiced in a very discerning fashion. Black-from-Alabama, Filipino, latino-from-Puerto Rico, Pole, Italian, Slav… not equal, but not equally not-equal. Like to some Filipinos, some Filipinos (Aetas) are less equal than some Filipinos (Boholanos) than some Filipinos (Cavitenos).
nash on Sun, 3rd Feb 2008 10:46 pm
“er, in computing the unemployment rate, the base figure is not the entire population, but the employable segment of the population.”
Duh. Of course I know that. Eh sino pa magtratabaho to put food for those unemployable segment (oldies, children) of the population?
Let us also not forget the ‘underemployed’. (Who, I’m told by sources in the NEDA and ADB) are still put under ‘employed’ when coming up with this magic numbers.
And remember 10% of 40 Million is 4 Million in real terms. That’s still a lot. Basically, it would be good to have nearly zero population rate for a decade.
(Pero wishful thinking lang yan. We all know is not possible dahil basta pinoy, sweet lover)
UP n student on Sun, 3rd Feb 2008 10:56 pm
@a.scalia and ManuelB: The both of you apparently are looking at GDP from two perspectives. A.scalia is looking for something to measure business activity (GDP does that). And disregarding the “‘garci’lens’”, ManuelB is looking for something to measure the general well-being of a population (GDP does not do that).
The very same guy, the inventor of GDP, had said in his first report to the US Congress:
…the welfare of a nation [can] scarcely be inferred from a measure of national income…
—
A good example of GDP being good for X and bad for Y is if a Typhoon Durian strikes Bicol, a Durian-strength typhoon hits Manila, another hits Cebu, another hits Baguio, and another hits GenSan city. GDP will increase since GDP counts work that results from repairing harm. But surely it would have been far better if the disaster had never occurred in the first place.
nash on Sun, 3rd Feb 2008 11:02 pm
@UP n
“Like to some Filipinos, some Filipinos (Aetas) are less equal than some Filipinos (Boholanos) than some Filipinos (Cavitenos).”
I’d like to meet these filipinos. Morbidly, I think I will have hours of entertainment. I’m gonna go meet them wearing my bahag.
cvj on Mon, 4th Feb 2008 12:09 am
Sounds like lechon-manok style businessmen to me.
nash on Mon, 4th Feb 2008 1:12 am
@cvj and justice scalia
Sino nga itong “everyone still clings to GDP as bases for investment decisions”. Please I’d like to know.
Because I can say that the Electronics and Semiconductor industry doesn’t. When Texas Instruments decided to put up a new plant in Clark, they did not go about comparing the GDPs of Vietnam, Pelepens, and China…
cvj on Mon, 4th Feb 2008 1:41 am
Nash, i agree. That’s why i said Scalia’s acquaintances sound like lechon-manok (or Shawarma or Bubble Tea)-style entrepreneurs.
nash on Mon, 4th Feb 2008 4:05 am
…and I will not accept answers like “hedge funds, investment banks, sovereign wealth funds, or currency speculators”
These guys make money of out of our backs and our reserves without adding to the bottom line – actual jobs.
Like him or loathe him, sabi nga ni Mahatir, these money speculators are leeches.
hvrds on Mon, 4th Feb 2008 4:10 am
GNP/GDP is simply a monetary measure of the division of labor between the the economic agents in an economy and their subsequent corresponding expenditure for the period.
Owners of Capital and/or Production (Foreign- domiciled/Domestic)-
Labor (all inclusive productive and non-productive forces domestic and abroad)
Government (Excise and Fees added on)
It can obviously be measured by expenditures of all three agents (consumption) or value added (production)side of the same three groups. (A large part is guesswork)Governments will always err on the side of optimism.
Case in point: when the government or a taxi company buys vehicles it is part of capital formation. When families buy vehicles it becomes part of durables consumption.
Source of income & consumption (specialized division of labor- micro/macro and international)- labor and future labor (debt)
Present real growth track of the Philippine economy comes predominanttly from OFW incomes/foreign investments in mining, BPO,/disinflation in the accounts of the owners of capital since their cost of capital and imports are cheaper due to the strength of the peso. Automatically they have a greater surplus value similar to the government in the savings of foreign debt service and imports. That goes to the bottom line.
Cost of oil is not a great part of their cost structure. A lot of the big boys have their own individual mini- power plants or buy their power direct from generators.
The weakest link in government accounts is the agricultural sector and the trade sector. That is almost more guesswork than it is not. This is where the bulk of the informal sector lies.
Did the economy of the Philippines grow over 7% last year? Probably not. It would cost millions to get the accurate data and take some time. Statistical discrepancies of 3-5% make it difficult to be accurate. Did the economy grow. Absolutely. The range – 5%-7%.
Does the growth lead to more capital formation and to sustainable development. Absolutely not.
The simple reason is the lack of a developmental state and the continued existence of political entrepreneurship in the legislature, executive and judiciary of the country. Our political establishment are entrepreneurs and indentured political servants to vested interests.
When the military become part of the political entrepreneurship game you have the makings of low intensity facism. If we are not careful it becomes a more intense form of facism.
UP n student on Mon, 4th Feb 2008 6:05 am
nash: IMF, WB, ADB, Bank of Japan, UN… clinging to use of GDP.
UP n student on Mon, 4th Feb 2008 6:35 am
nash: when monkeys talk, they use monkey-talk. when goats talk, they use goat-talk. when a goat and a monkey talk, the one asking for the favor uses the language of the one he is asking favors from.
UP n student on Mon, 4th Feb 2008 7:20 am
And if you think that’s funny,
things can get really hilarious when a monkey talks with a monkey using the language of elephants because they want to compete over a goat. 
nash on Mon, 4th Feb 2008 8:14 am
@UP n,
these aren’t technically investors are they?
They are creditors. or if you want a euphemism “philanthropist banks” 
what i want to know, just to satiate my curiosity, is for justice scalia to illuminate me about companies, that are not money marketeers, that make direct investments by looking at the GDP to make decisions.
cheers
Silent Waters on Mon, 4th Feb 2008 8:56 am
I think there seems to be some misconception about what people are saying about GDP/GNP figures. I do believe that investors will initially look at these figures as a sort of filter to weed out the countries they don’t even want to consider as in investment site. It is after this weeding out that they look at other metrics to further refine their elimination process.
So each side is actually correct. Scalia is saying that investors look at the GNP/GDP as an initial basis and the others are right in saying that they do look at other factors in making their decisions.
TonGuE-tWisTeD on Mon, 4th Feb 2008 9:02 am
“Investors will no longer look at the story behind the figures, just at the figures themselves.”
Whatever happened to “extreme due diligence”? Now we know why America is in recession. We’ve explained in one thread what Wall Street cannot, in the past weeks. Amazing, how brilliant we Filipinos are!
anthony scalia on Mon, 4th Feb 2008 9:07 am
nash,
“Because I can say that the Electronics and Semiconductor industry doesn’t. When Texas Instruments decided to put up a new plant in Clark, they did not go about comparing the GDPs of Vietnam, Pelepens, and China…”
Its because a good number of them are already here for decades!
As for Texas Instruments, the latest billion dollar investment was for expansion, not a first time investment. The guys at TI already have a feel of the investment climate here, that they’re no longer swayed by the usual gloom and doom news from the opposition and those itching to migrate to first world countries
anthony scalia on Mon, 4th Feb 2008 9:10 am
nash,
“(Pero wishful thinking lang yan. We all know is not possible dahil basta pinoy, sweet lover)”
oks lang ang mag-wish
cvj on Mon, 4th Feb 2008 9:26 am
An example of Scalia-type investors.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJ_qK4g6ntM
anthony scalia on Mon, 4th Feb 2008 9:29 am
cvj,
wow, your ‘lechon-manok’ comments sure speak volumes:
1. the great cvj, concluding that lechon-manok businessmen are basing their investing decisions on GDP/GNP! oh my! what a way to make a conclusion!? oh but thats part of freedom of expression, kaya i must let you say that.
2. it shows a disdain for a majority of Pinoys, who for the moment, can only afford to start one ‘lechon manok’ stand or a cart or other similar modest businesses
3. its just for starters, just to get the ball rolling
4. one profitable stand/cart can increase to 5, 10, 15 profitable stands/carts – sufficient not to be an OFW in Singapore or elsewhere anymore
5. and so what if my acquaintances are ‘lechon-manok businessmen’? They are the business owners, the job creators. They had the guts to put up hard-earned money for investment and cast their lot here, and not go for the easy way out of migrating to first world countries or be an OFW.
in case you haven’t noticed yet, you are the elitist!
anthony scalia on Mon, 4th Feb 2008 9:50 am
UP n student,
great observation.
But im using GDP in one sense, then here comes another using another metric for an obviously different area.
I never ever said that the 7.3 makes the country poverty-free, or an economic tiger, or all OFWS can go back home already
In short, in the discussion i started, I am not using GDP as basis in measuring general welfare! As you said, im using it to gauge economic activity! And since investors the world over, rightly or wrongly, use GDP in making investment decisions, we have no choice but to use also GDP in wooing them to invest here.
Jobs are highly dependent on economic activities. Since job creation is one of the highest priorities, anything that stimulates much economic activities must be encouraged. And how do we measure if job creation efforts are bearing fruit – GDP. (There could be others) To repeat, im not talking about equity, welfare.
It must be stressed that the inventor of GDP said that it cannot adequately measure a nation’s WELFARE (sorry i don’t know how to make a word in italics)
Thats why i mentioned mb’s use of ‘Hello Garci’ lens – he, and the rest of the anti-gloria school, undermines the GDP figure as a way to discredit gloria. Because the 7.3 is a huge ‘pa-pogi points’ for gloria.
They don’t know that they are dragging the country down in their overzeal to attack gloria.
Ill state it for the record – i dont give gloria credit for the 7.3. Kung baga sa golf, par lang yang 7.3. Trabaho nya yan.
Parang yung sinabi ni Tita Cory in 1997 or 1998 in an anti-cha cha rally to FVR – “you said you improved the economy (because FVR was insinuating that he’s entitled to an extension due to his ‘good performance’). Fine. You’re just doing your job”
anthony scalia on Mon, 4th Feb 2008 10:00 am
UP n student,
I don’t pretend to know how GDP and other similar measurements should be computed. So ill better ask you na lang some questions:
1. GDP can mean thousands of previously jobless people are getting employed, right? hence, even though family income may not increase, the fact that households with incomes have increased (due to rise in employment) is an improvement in itself.
2. i still can’t fathom the reason for devaluing the peso – the guys at UPSE say it will attract more foreign investments as foreign investors can stretch their dollars here.
i’ve been hearing that argument since the peso was still P23 to the US dollar. The peso has gone up to 55 then down to 40-41. Yet im still hearing that familiar refrain today.
anthony scalia on Mon, 4th Feb 2008 10:09 am
Tongue-Twisted,
“Whatever happened to “extreme due diligenceâ€? Now we know why America is in recession. We’ve explained in one thread what Wall Street cannot, in the past weeks. Amazing, how brilliant we Filipinos are!”
the objects of ‘extreme due diligence’ are all in the US. judging from the subprime mess in the US, its either ‘extreme due diligence’ wasn’t done or ‘extreme due diligence’ wasn’t good enough. It can also mean that ‘extreme due diligence’ cannot predict the future.
when i talk about investors using GDP, im talking about the making of foreign direct investments (FDI) not ‘hot money’ (investments in stocks, IOUs etc)
What is primarily affected by the crisis in the US is our stock market, as ‘hot money’ had to monetize their gains here to compensate for losses in the US.
(sorry but whats the thread you mentioned about Wall Street cannot…)
cvj on Mon, 4th Feb 2008 10:10 am
anthony, you’re the one who said that your businessmen friends “no longer look at the story behind the figures, just at the figures themselves“. That’s treating GDP as another form of superstition. As to my [lucky guess] that your acquaintances are lechon-manok businessmen, i did not make any normative judgment as to their livelihoods one way or the other. You just read too much into my comment, perhaps reflecting your own latent attitudes.
anthony scalia on Mon, 4th Feb 2008 10:27 am
cvj,
FDIs, not ‘hot money’.
FDIs produce the jobs. ‘Hot money’ just enriches the owners of PSE members.
For all you know, Temasek could be holders of those glorified IOUs in the US subprime mess
inodoro ni emilie on Mon, 4th Feb 2008 10:52 am
the downside to this is when the gdp begins to heat up, the foreign investors will be the first to pack up as labour cost is perceived to rise also in temperature.
we shouldn’t be overly reliant on foreign investments but rather on the sustainability of our own productive activities, providinf us with greater incentives to compete on our own merits globally.
anthony scalia on Mon, 4th Feb 2008 11:11 am
cvj,
here’s what i said:
“Investors will no longer look at the story behind the figures, just at the figures themselves”
did i limit ‘investors’ to ‘lechon-manok businessmen?’
And my mention of ‘businessmen friends’ is on showing increased business activity, which include some people investing in modest businesses such as lechon manok and food carts.
yes, thats the reality – that many people are still basing investment decisions on GDP/GNP. superstition or not, right or wrong, many people still cling to GDP figures.
since you’re no longer bound by ’superstition’ lets see you convince investors such as Temasek to put a billion dollars in FDI here without looking at GDP figures, and persuade them that GDP isn’t a good measurement of the investment climate here. best wishes. if you’re able to do so, you’ve proven your point, i salute you (you might as well do the same to other deep-pocketed investors)
maybe you’ve met a Pinoy lechon-manok businessman who told you he’s dependent on GDP figures in making decisions. such sophisticated businessman!
my goodness, can’t you make the distinction? I am not saying that GDP is a great measurement, but i have to put myself in the shoes of those investors who do!
“i did not make any normative judgment as to their livelihoods one way or the other.”
ah no sir, you just did. why single out ‘lechon-manok businessmen’?
“You just read too much into my comment,”
wrong again sir. the text of your comment is plain and simple and readily understood, no need to construe it. again, why use ‘lechon-manok businessmen’?
why do you have to say i associate with ‘lechon-manok businessmen’ and other businessmen in similar modest businesses? so what!? do you have their same guts to invest hard-earned money here?
and you’re the one who read too much into my use of ‘investor’ in my comment “Investors will no longer look at the story behind the figures, just at the figures themselves”
“…perhaps reflecting your own latent attitudes.”
in a manner of speaking, yes its a reflection of my own latent attitude –
- in appreciating the capacity of the Filipino to uplift himself without migrating to a first world country or becoming an OFW
- in appreciating any legal and modest means of livelihood
- in appreciating the fact that the Filipino has finally realized that ‘patalsikin na now na’ does not create jobs
Well what you wrote just shows you just let a lot of Singapore in you already
cvj on Mon, 4th Feb 2008 1:10 pm
Anthony, lechon manok happens to be one of the things i miss here in Singapore so i only have the highest regard for those who sell it. You can tell them to keep up the good work.
anthony scalia on Mon, 4th Feb 2008 4:50 pm
cvj,
makakarating!
nash on Mon, 4th Feb 2008 5:11 pm
o siya, may bagong post, lipat tayo doon at ng tuloy-tuloy ang ating prayer meeting and sharing…
hawaiianguy on Tue, 5th Feb 2008 5:39 am
Nash, hindi pa tapos si Neri, the naughty guy. Si Garfield, ayos na.