Testimony
October 20, 2007 by mlq3
Filed under Daily Dose
The latest news is C-4 bomb component used in Glorietta blast – PNP chemist and Glorietta death toll rises to 9. For its part, Makati blast a ‘terror act,’ military says: Leftists, rightists, extremists eyed.
After 24 hours of no groups coming forward to claim responsibility for the blast, ‘RSM spokesman’ owns up to Glorietta 2 blast although it’s far from being confirmed. What have come in, prior to this news, were denials: Abu Sayyaf denies hand in Makati bomb attack while MILF offers help in deadly blast probe.
All we know are slender clues to a whole that has yet to be literally pieced together: Investigators to scour Glorietta underground for blast clues.
The past is now. Perhaps it’s the part of me that constantly refers to the past, to make sense of the present, that draws me at this time, to the eyewitness accounts being published on line. The point when eyewitness bear witness to what they saw, where testimony makes the transition from an oral story to one written down, and thus, becomes a story that can enter history, is the point where journalism and history connect. Or perhaps it’s the need to keep yesterday’s events on a human scale, knowing it’s that scale that is the best antidote to whoever perpetrated the bombing.
So let us begin with the testimony.
Of Law and Badminton was there:
True enough, when we were on the third floor of Glorietta 2, we were able to find Toby’s. I told my friend to go there and make her purchase, while I would be browsing at the tiangge stores right outside. I was looking at the latest fashionable blouses, muttering to myself that I would never be able to pull them off. I still tried on one blouse, but to no avail. Hindi talaga bagay…shucks.
I received a text message from my friend at around 1:25 P.M., telling me that she was near Timezone waiting for me, but urging me to take my time. Immediately after I got her text, I tried to locate her. Not able to find her, I decided to call her up.
Just when the phone was ringing, I heard a very loud explosion nearby coupled with a very intense shake which felt like an Intensity 10 earthquake. I almost fell to the ground because of the impact! I felt like I was in twilight zone or something, as I watched debris falling everywhere and smoke billowing from behind. Suddenly, people were screaming and shouting and pushing me. I had no choice but to follow the crowd. I began to wonder whether my friend was safe and as I was about to call her up, I heard what seemed like another explosion. I froze for a second, terrified, not knowing where to go. At that very second, I felt terror grip my body, wondering if there were still several bombs about to go off, and wondering if we were running headlong into another bomb. I don’t know how my legs were able to function but before I knew it, I was walking straight into Landmark.
Thankfully, the guards removed the table and opened the doors wide in order to receive the big crowd emanating from Glorietta 2. As I stepped into what felt like safe ground, I received a call from my friend asking me where I was. I was relieved upon hearing her voice knowing that at least she was OK. I told her I was at Landmark and not to worry about me. I called up my husband to tell him what happened. Fortunately he was just nearby and that he would pick me up immediately. I couldn’t contact my friend anymore since the network (Globe) was already busy. Good thing there was no traffic in sending text messages. After texting her and knowing she was ok, and that her driver was about to pick her up, it was only at that moment that I suddenly felt relieved.
Cindy.cIndy.ciNdy.cinDy.cindY also relates,
Earlier that day we agreed to dine in Pizza Hut which was in the second floor of Glorietta 2. We proceeded to Pizza Hut and placed our orders. Moments later a loud bang was heard. I didn’t move thinking that it was nothing serious. I actually thought that it was some activity prepared by Glorietta. But the whole Glorietta trembled like there was an earthquake. The ceiling almost fell but luckily only small debris fell from the ceiling. My friend was pushing me to stand. Immediately I packed my things. We turned our heads and saw heavy white smoke outside the establishment. People were screaming and running away from the smoke. That was the time that I realized that it was an explosion and that it might not be the only one. We panicked! I grabbed my friend’s hand and we ran toward the escalators in the activity area. Pizza Hut was just about 20 meters away where the bombing happened. We were lucky that the direction of the bomb explosion was in the direction of Park Square and not toward the activity area. At the bottom of the escalator, some insulators of the mall can be found. Debris kept falling inside and the smoke was approaching the activity area. I told my friend to ran headed for SM. We ran and never looked back. People from SM didn’t know that there was a bombing incident at Glorietta. Later a group of women and security guards were screaming and running toward us. At that instant we ran to MRT station, bought tickets and finally got out of the place.
Welcome to my life! published her mother’s story:
On the way back to office, while on board the escalator, we heard a loud blast. I was stunned as I watched the ceiling of the floor below me collapse like domino tiles and orange plastic pipes started to fall too. I saw the sales girls from the collapsed stores running for their lives. I was thinking someone must have been killed down there. I was stunned and stood still on the moving escalator until my friend Milette hugged me and shouted, “RUN!”. It jolted me and made me realize that the floor in which we were in could also collapse. I grabbed her hand and ran as fast as I could to Landmark department store which is connected to the mall we came from. My heart was pounding. Our other friends got separated from us but we all made ourway safely back to office on foot.
flipflopping my way around town recounts that “there, but for the grace of God, go I,” feeling many people had:
Apparently, Mommy was also at Glorietta looking for the Baby Couture stall as she was supposed to buy a bag for her god daughter. Thank God for Mommy’s bad sense of direction, she somehow got lost and went the other way from where the stall was. (note: the Baby Couture is located at Glorietta 2 together with the other baby/kiddie shops at the 2nd floor). Then she heard a loud bang and felt the vibration. Thinking it must be an earthquake she entered Abensons and asked the salesman if she can stay there for safety. What scared her was when she saw a lot of people rushing out from the mall, some were hysterical, some were crying… then she heard some screaming “may bomba may bomba!” (there’s a bomb! there’s a bomb!).
There were those in the vicinity of the blast, as Bryanton Post relates:
Melissa, a friend whom I was supposed to meet last night, was eating in Via Mare in Landmark when the blast occurred. Had she decided to eat in Glorietta after a physical exam in one of the clinics there, she later told me, she would have been included among the casualties. The impact, she said, was so strong that it was even felt in Landmark. An earthquake, people around her kept saying. No, she said to herself. It felt more like the whole mall had just taken a roller coaster ride, she told me.
If that was even felt in Landmark, I can’t simply imagine the impact in Glorietta.
Another account is by O-C Mumzie, who was in a gym in the area:
Ten minutes behind schedule now, I focused on the remaining tasks on my to-do list. I hurried to the locker room to change, gather my things and check-out. And then it happened… the building rocked and the sound of exploding glass and screams rang out. Glorietta 2 had just been bombed. And then a second blast.
At that point, we didn’t know what it was. For some reason though, I feared the worse. My friend, Maricar, asked me what happened and I just said “I think it was a bomb”. I guess it was the screams that told me. We peered though the 3rd floor gym lobby and saw the security guard rolling down the steel partitions. Beyond, we could see thick clouds of smoke (we learned later was pulverized cement) billowing from inside the mall and the screams of terror became more audible. I heard the receptionist say the blast came from nearby Timezone. My God! The children! With that thought, I knew I had to focus and look after my own safety. It was a mother’s instinct in me that suddenly took control of my every move– I needed to be safe for my own children.
Immediately I helped Maricar take control. After gathering my things, I helped her clean out her locker and carried one of her bags. I told her we should exit though the ground floor of the gym that would lead us directly outside the mall and into an open park. In seconds, we were out and joined the hundreds already gathered in the safety of open ground. I called my husband, my kids, my sisters and friends who mattered to me most just to let them know I’m okay. My car was stranded ar the car park with my driver so my husband sent his driver to pick me up at the packed Starbucks at 6750.
But here’s a curious thing, which to me, will gain significance as the various eyewitness accounts are cross-checked and the specific circumstances begin to emerge. Take this account by As the world turns, who was there in Glorietta 2 at the time of the blast:
For the life of me, I couldn’t understand how I failed to feel the earthquake-like blast, as described by those interviewed in TV newscasts, in Glorietta 2 yesterday, when the rest of the people beside who were also there, watching from the second floor, not very far from the scene of the blast, those at the activity center below, running, scampering towards the exit doors. We were looking at each other wondering what was going on! We weren’t panicky, we were simply bewildered. What I heard were the ear-splitting squeaks of shutters and doors of shops and stores being shot and hurled down in hurried succession.
I took the escalator studiedly. I stayed and waited for a while at the ground floor where some mall security people were gathered trying to piece the information they got from their receivers, for news because I was curious. I wanted to know what was going on. I wanted to know if there was a fire because smoke filled the area. I asked a security guard what was that all about. He simply replied, “Ma’am, I do not have an official word yet, you are safe, please stay calm and walk towards the exit door carefully.” When I got out of the exit door facing the Shangri-la Hotel, all the people were politely and courteously requested by the security guards to cross towards the tent because they were sealing the perimeters off in and around Glorietta.
The smoke wafting out of the door smelled of gunpowder or firecrackers, I distinctly remember. I couldn’t leave the tent because it rained. Besides, the immediate surroundings were filled with cars – firetrucks, ambulance, private cars, police cars, news companies’, etc. The paths towards Landmark were completely sealed off.
gimmepeanutbutter wasn’t as close to the scene:
Kuya Tim and I arrived at the venue earlier than my calltime so we had to wait for a while. After around 30 minutes of staring into space, I suddenly heard something that sounded like thunder. I didn’t mind it at first–until people started running out of Glorietta. At this point I kinda got scared. I got even more nervous when the prod team started asking us if we were ready to run. Fortunately, we didn’t have to.
Meet Joebacs recounts,
Immediately after most of the food we ordered were already on our table, tragedy struck a few meters away. We didn’t actually hear anything. The glass window of the restaurant didn’t shake, no abnormal audible sound caught our ear. We only learned that something was amiss when throngs of people, literally, poured out onto the streets.
A lot of stories swirled, different accounts of what happened. The alleged location of the blast were quite varied. We thought the ceiling in one of the stores just caved in. We only learned about the seriousness of what transpired when we saw a teenager still in schock with a gash on her feet…
Some, like Yugatech, were spared the worst of it but were left bewildered like the Mall employees they encountered:
Since my car was parked at the underground of 6750, most of my encounters where with Glorietta employees still busy doing their jobs despite the rush and ensuing panic.
I asked the lady at the parking gate why they haven’t been let go for the day considering the imminent danger. She was wondering of the same thing too.
When I got out on the street, it was packed with people — shoppers, employees, policemen, traffic enforcers and tons of vehicles trying to drive away from the scene. So was I.
Lost In My Headspace provides not only an account of what it was like in Glorietta, but among the most famous amateur videos of the event, too. This haunting photo by noelldeg says it all, for the survivors. My Mobile Blog — blogging minus the PC has photos of some of the casualties. See the Glorietta Blast mutlimedia photo, too.
Behind the Stories relates what it’s like for reporters to be alerted of a breaking story and then rushing to cover it:
I was about to eat my lunch when the day desk editor called, and was panicking when he told me that an explosion happened at Glorietta. And much as I wanted to panic too, I merely stayed calm. I immediately got out of the Crame press office, left my just-to-be-eaten yummy lunch and took the MRT.
Fifteen minutes later I was at the scene, and as usual engaged myself in a brief word war with security guards. Hohohoho hahaha while I tried to get to the other side of Glorietta, with all luck..my heels broke. So I went back to SM and bought a pair of cheap flipflops to get me through.
Finally arriving at the scene moments later, I saw how the Glorietta 2 entrance was reduced in rubble, and all those shattered glasses, and the cadavers yet to be brought to the morgue. Sure, this one was a very memorable coverage for me. It was I witnessing yet another part of history unfold.
But it was really devastating. I held back tears. I knew I had to work. I knew I had to do away with emotions. I knew I had to accept that this world is cruel.
A tragedy also results in questions being asked. And tough questions need to be asked. Not later, but now. To postpone them out of a misplaced sense of compassion for the victims will do more harm than good in the long run.The security measures of the Ayala Malls (and malls in general) comes in for criticism by The Banker’s Council:
Ah, those large doorway-detectors. Those that beep incessantly when we the general public pass through them. And what do the guards do when the big gray machine sounds out that it has detected a metallic object? NOTHING.
I have passed by that area many times. Sometimes I bring my backpack and laptop. Other times I just have my Pacsafe wallet around my neck. And everytime, the machine sounds its alarm. And everytime, the guards do not ask me (or anyone else) to “please empty your pockets and go through the machine again.â€
And to think that they have a secondary security-cum-detection device – the handheld metal detector, such as this.
So what are those machines for in the first place?
Come to think of it, if the damage was caused by an exploding LPG tank, wouldn’t a fire break out?
Come to think of it (again), if the damage was caused by an exploding LPG tank, I’d probably agree that there was no security lapse and that the incident, unfortunate as it was, could have been an accident, though magnified many many times.
Anyway, back to the security situation.
The other news reports say that the blast site had traces of components used in the making of plastic explosives such as the military-use C4. So I guess the metal detectors would have been of no help.
Are the security guards, metal detectors and other high-tech gadgets enough of a deterrent to those who would intentionally cause havoc in such a place filled with civilians?
Similar thoughts are in Prudence and Madness and in A Day in the Life.. In IndioSign, there’s an observation about the limitations of modern buildings. In her blog, Stella Arnaldo who also has no love lost for Ayala Malls security, points to security shortcomings but also discusses something that no one can ignore:
Even before Sen. Trillanes pointed his fingers at the Presidentita GMA and her henchmen being behind the Glorietta blasts, the man on the street and your friendly neighborhood cab drivers were already thinking the same. I spoke to a few later in the evening. Pinoys aren’t stupid although our politicians make us out to be. (If this was the handiwork of terrorists, by yesterday evening, they would have claimed responsibility for the blast already because they are a proud bunch.)
Of course you can say it’s just another conspiracy theory but really, the public, especially the masa have come to distrust the Presidentita and her people. We can’t put anything past her. Almost everyone believes she is capable of doing anything just to perpetuate herself in power and refocus the public’s attention away from her government’s latest foibles. As usual, the Presidentita’s text brigade (Hello NTC: Check out 0905-346-8994) is actively trying to spin the bombings against her critics especially politicians in the opposition. While she tells them to stop politicking and taking advantage of the incident, her handlers are doing it for her. Amateurs talaga!
Mind you, these thoughts have entered the minds of people normally not inclined to have a say, either way, when it comes to politics. zalveen-ice’s Site, I think, is an example of a skeptical public. See, also, A Pinoy Investment Banker’s Homepage (I take it that the blogger is representative of the core constituency of the administration, the upper and professional classes):
Do you know what our consensus was as we speculated on the incident? It was probably the handiwork of people loyal to President Gloria Macapagal-Arroyo (GMA) to divert media attention away from her in the light of a series of scandals which had rocked her administration. Since our initial feedback was that it was simply a LPG explosion, we even thought that whoever planned the thing was hare-brained and stupid to begin with. (Of course, we know now that it was not exploding LPG tanks which caused the damage but more like C-4). We have become cynical of GMA to have thought this way, rightly or wrongly. She really has a serious credibility problem with her constituency.
See The Warrior Lawyer and The Four-eyed Journal and Tongue in, Anew and Do my stories piss you off? as well as Random Thoughts.
From New Philippine Revolution comes an effort to whittle down the (large) list of suspects, and his list has the American CIA and a rogue group from the AFP at the top. On the other hand, Philippine Commentary is firmly convinced that the prime suspect remains Muslim groups. As he puts it,
I for one cannot even imagine the possibility of President Gloria Macapagal Arroyo ordering such a thing, much less some rogue supporters who would act without her knowledge. She may be corrupt as events have proven, and craven enough to try to hold onto power by almost any means. But I just don’t believe she, or any of her people would be ruthless enough to do this. If anything she would rather run away than fight, as shown in the Angelo dela Cruz incident in Iraq, and in her pusillanimous handling of the Mindanao situation, both of which were actually determined by the civil society uproar against showing any kind of spine against the terrorists.
Still, you would expect people to instinctively rally around the flag. I see very little of that taking place.
But with the need to experience what other people went through, comes another pressing human need -to understand and make sense of a tragedy. Akomismo puts the blast in the context of previous terrorist attacks. So does Touched by an Angel. People will grasp at anything to try to find a pattern.
Take a look at pine for pine analyzing the list of casualties. Take this text message quoted by rockersworld.com:
13 days after Pacquiao’s victory against Eric Morales, naganap ang WoWowee Stampede.
13 days after Pacquiao’s victory against Larios, Mayon Volcano erupted, many died in mudflow.
13 days after Pacquiao’s victory against Barrera, Glorietta explosion..
We are all part of a process of national grieving, which echoes the manner in which individuals come to terms with a loved one’s demise.
Mon Casiple’s analysis is the most chilling. Remember, this is a person not given to off-the-cuff statements or for letting his emotions veto his circumspection. He goes through the list of potential suspects and the implications if any specific group is proven to be behind the blast:
The Glorietta bombing basically creates an atmosphere of unease, tension, and fear among the populace. If there are others that followed, it may create panic or cause cumulative harm on the body politic. Such a situation puts pressure on a target political opponent and/or derails its normal activities. It may precede a decisive extra-constitutional move.
A convenient culprit remains the Abu Sayyaf or some other Moro rebel group. This is possible but military offensives against them have led to disarrays in their organization and capabilities. Small bombings in the South can be expected of these groups but a massive bombing in Metro Manila–such as the one in Glorietta–raises questions.
Two other groups have the capability for such an obviously carefully-planned bombing. One is the rebel group in the military. The other is the military itself.
Their engaging in the Glorietta bombing would mean a political connection or an incursion into the political arena by the rebel military. Assuming a political motive, the bombing would represent a demonstration of political strength–and nothing else. It flies against the logic of the present stage of the political crisis where the pressure is on the president and not on the opposition. Such a move can only weaken the political momentum of the opposition. The only logical reason–not necessarily tenable politically–is to prepare for a much more decisive strike at the center of power.
Involvement of military elements in the chain of command in the Glorietta bombing would mean that a section of the military has taken sides in the political conflict on the side of the president. The logic is to create a reason for an imposition of martial or some form of national emergency. There is a precedent in the past–that of the series of bombings Marcos did to justify martial rule in 1972.
The Glorietta bombing will not immediately produce any clear indication as to the motive(s) of the perpetrator. Succeeding incidents will create the patterns that make clear a decisive political–albeit extra-constitutional–strategy. Whatever happens, we have entered the final stretch of the political crisis.
An appeal for collective action comes from Iniibig ko ang Pilipinas!:
There are many ways where we can take a collective action to show our unity in expressing our disgust over the bombing. We can make a call on every Filipino homes to display a Philippine flag. Or we can all wear a black shirt on a particular day. Or we can ask the church to toll the bells, honk our cars, hit the pan, make a noise on a particular time. Or we can all just go to Glorietta, no speaches, no banners, no placards, just a show of numbers. Or we can spread the slogan, Iniibig ko ang Pilipinas (too self serving), to express our sentiment on our love for our country. The point is, we have experienced a collective wound. To bring about a positive outcome from this incident, we, the citizens minus the politicians, have to make a collective action.
I only disagree insofar as anyone would think it’s possible to move one way, without the politicians. Even saints had assholes. But Welcome to my World, a Filipino overseas, says it well:
This incident reminds me of the time when the good people of London also became victims of terrorist bombings. Instead of calling for arms and declaring war, then Prime Minister Tony Blair actually called out for all British citizens to remain vigilant and not to cower to the cowardice acts of these misleaded uneducated individuals. To not sink to their level. To not change one’s way of life, for if we succumb to these senseless barbaric acts then they have truly won. For their goal is not to simply kill a huge number of our countrymen, but to create fear to change our way of life. To terrorize a society is to instill fear, regardless of the means, may it be through the taking of lives or through a simple perceived threat.
Again, to my mind, we would do better focusing on the physical and emotional scars of a national trauma barely 24 hours old; and formulating, in our minds, the questions that must be answered, frankly and completely, for we, the people, to be satisfied that the explanations we are getting are genuine.
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Equalizer on Sat, 20th Oct 2007 7:12 pm
Profile of the Mastermind of the Ayala Mall Bombing
A completely ruthless person who is willing to do ANYTHING in pursuit of his or her objectives. It does not matter to this person what the costs are, even the “human†costs.
This person must be desperate. He or she decided to strike at the very heart of the business district to make a point. He or she is sending a very clear warning to all :“The worst is yet to comeâ€.
This person means business. The stakes are too high now. No more turning back .Every day matters. His or her “clock†is ticking away very fast…
The more desperate he or she becomes, the more desperate will be his or her NEXT moves. It is his or her downward spiral to the abyss of desperation.
Is he or she afraid of retribution from men? Nope. He or she thinks that
there is always an exception to the rule that “no one is above the lawâ€.
Worried about Divine retribution? Nope. That person must think that God is always on his or her side. No different from those ruthless suicide bombers in the Middle East.
God save our country from this person.
Equalizer on Sat, 20th Oct 2007 7:38 pm
“There is one safeguard known generally to the wise, which is an advantage and security to all, but especially to democracies as against despots. What is it? Distrust.” Demosthenes
BrianB on Sat, 20th Oct 2007 7:42 pm
“The Glorietta bombing will not immediately produce any clear indication as to the motive(s) of the perpetrator. Succeeding incidents will create the patterns that make clear a decisive political–albeit extra-constitutional–strategy. Whatever happens, we have entered the final stretch of the political crisis.”
“this is a person not given to off-the-cuff statements or for letting his emotions veto his circumspection.”
Just because he still knows where his commas go means he is still capable of circumspection. Watching Free Euro movies tonight at Shang. Taking my new friend. Have no fear at all of TERRORISTS.
Equalizer on Sat, 20th Oct 2007 7:48 pm
“All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.” (Edmund Burke)
Equalizer on Sat, 20th Oct 2007 8:18 pm
First They Came…
When the Nazis came for the communists
I remained silent;
I was not a communist.
When they locked up the social democrats
I remained silent;
I was not a social democrat.
When they came for the trade unionists
I did not speak out;
I was not a trade unionist.
When they came for the Jews
I remained silent;
I wasn’t a Jew.
When they came for me,
there was no one left to speak out.
Pastor Martin Niemöller
rollchan on Sat, 20th Oct 2007 8:25 pm
@Equalizer: Burke’s quote, I really do believe that. Thanks for that post.
==========================================================
Rajah Solaiman Group claimed for the bombings. They should all be pulverize, icluding the MILF and the ASG!
LTA on Sat, 20th Oct 2007 8:34 pm
Gov’t identifies terror group in Manila!
NATIONAL Security Adviser Norberto Gonzales said the Rajah Sulayman Group (RSG) is the biggest terrorist threat in Metro Manila.
Gonzales said in a radio interview that government is giving attention to the RSG because most of its members are “balik Islam” and it obtains funds from the Middle East although it is a small organization.
“Ito ang medyo pinakamalaki ang sakit ng ulo natin dahil ito ay mga dating Kristiyano. Ibig sabihin mga taga-Luzon ito eh, taga-Maynila, taga-Pangasinan, taga-Nueva Ecija. So alam nila iyung pasikot-sikot dito sa Maynila (They are quite a big headache to use because they are former Christians. This means that they are from Luzon, from Manila, from Pangasinan, from Nueva Ecija. So they know the ins and outs of Manila),” he said.
ramrod on Sat, 20th Oct 2007 8:59 pm
Where are these “experts†the government is talking about? 24 Hours is more than enough, all we’re seeing are foot dragging, jargon, and confusion-generating talk.
If it was a serious terrorist bombing (Islamist/NPA, etc.), the body count could have been more, the target should be a crowded area, and the deaths or injuries should have been more than blast-related or “shock wave†induced. We should have seen more blood, dismemberment, and terror. As it is, it was a clean blomb, more percussive (just for loud noise) than destructive, they did not find traces, of course they never will. RDX is the signature of C4, if they insist on looking for the detonator in this case a blasting cap it has already been blown to smithereens. If this were tradditional terrorists, shrapnel should have found, (nails, ball bearings, etc.) but there isn’t. This was intentional, clean, and well aimed, with deliberate calculation for as low collateral damage as possible, designed to “make a loud noise.†Terrorists, the genuine ones’ message is “HATE†so in their attacks its always calculated for maximum casualty, grim, bloody, terror.
Only old tacticians are so predictable, beware of pacifists, they are as destructive as those who cry “foul!â€
frombelow on Sat, 20th Oct 2007 9:06 pm
So, all issues are apparently being placed at the back burner or totally being forgotten
vic on Sat, 20th Oct 2007 9:41 pm
“Where are these “experts†the government is talking about? 24 Hours is more than enough, all we’re seeing are foot dragging, jargon, and confusion-generating talk”..ramrod..
The experts don’t know what they are talking about, especially the ones getting their info from the intelligence community, because these Intelligence Service people were and are busy “shadowing” the wrong people. They instead are busy digging intel on the President’s and the administration’s perceived enemies, the group the Chiefs (all the president’s men) fondly called the de-stabilizers.. and the real destabilizers are nowhere to be found..
ramrod on Sat, 20th Oct 2007 9:43 pm
Behind every orchestrated “disaster” is the objective of effecting a redirection of the current situation. Aside from the collateral damage (as these callous people call the injured, dead, and damage to property), the economy, our way of life, and our trust in each other are the also casualties. In a worst case scenario, we will all be going at each other’s throats, Christians against Muslims, against Leftists, and against Rightists. If we allow ourselves to be “misdirected” the Filipino people will be reduced to these denominations, classified by hatred and narrowmindedness. The business climate will be grim indeed, capital flight, decrease in investments, the upper class and upper middle class will initiate a systematic migration. Whatever momemtum the opposition and the people may have established in the search for truth and better government prior to this incident will fizzle like new year’s sparklers. Or we could be pacified by an insincere call for sympathy for those who are injured and those who died. There is a time for grieving, but are we expected to grieve forever? Should grieving mean becoming docile sheep to be led by the noses to the slaughter? Or should grieving lead to an unquenchable desire for justice that will strengthen our resolve for change?
This orchestrated disaster is designed to direct/misdirect us, to cower us, or to divide us.
As always, there is a need to be intelligently vigilant.
qwert on Sat, 20th Oct 2007 10:09 pm
“Where are these “experts†the government is talking about? 24 Hours is more than enough, all we’re seeing are foot dragging, jargon, and confusion-generating talk.”- ramrod
“And while Chief Inspector Reynold Rosero said the explosion originated underground, authorities are still clueless on what kind of explosive caused the blast, which killed at least nine people and injured over a hundred others on Friday afternoon.
Rosero added that the post-blast investigation might take more days as the blast site is knee-deep flooded with water from the sprinklers and as its ceiling is on the verge of collapsing.” – By Thea Alberto
INQUIRER.net
Sorry ram, looks like were going to wait for a few more days…
ramrod on Sat, 20th Oct 2007 10:30 pm
qwert,
If thats the case, I’m afraid they will never find anything. The water will wash out traces of the explosive, very convenient, it washed itself. I heard earlier that they found traces of RDX (C4 related). What a shame, if they confirmed C4, not many people has access to it, only the military and mining companies (legally), then it will appear we were attacked by angry miners. The MILF, RSM, have nothing to gain by bombing this area, they can get national attention just by ambushing our soldiers in their territory where they have they have terrain advantage.
Manila Bay Watch on Sat, 20th Oct 2007 10:52 pm
Ramrod,
“The MILF, RSM, have nothing to gain by bombing this area, they can get national attention just by ambushing our soldiers in their territory where they have they have terrain advantage.”
I think so too!
mlq3 on Sat, 20th Oct 2007 10:53 pm
ramrod, since you have more military experience here than most readers, can you suggest what citizens should look out for: what questions come to mind immediately to those with military training?
from what we have seen, by means of photos, videos, eyewitness accounts, can any initial conclusions be reached about the type of explosive used? what about the timing (not rush hour) the nature of the blast (upwards and not sidewards), the lack of a major fire, etc.
and i’d be interested in your reaction to this piece:
http://www.slate.com/id/2176122
LTA on Sat, 20th Oct 2007 11:11 pm
“So, all issues are apparently being placed at the back burner or totally being forgotten .from below”
It’s all about connections of events.Connect the dots….
You will see the emerging picture…
ramrod on Sun, 21st Oct 2007 12:13 am
mlq3,
Thank you for the link. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not an expert in this field, as I said I have long been seduced by the business side of the “force” and my exposure right now is limited to informal get togethers (if our wives allow us) with mistahs over beer and sisig. I’m seriously thinking of inviting you to one of these get togethers one day, with their permission of course so you can hear firsthand our not so serious banter.
As for the article “Resign, Retire, and Renounce by Fred Kaplan, upon reading it I find that there is not much difference between the war rooms of the US and the Philippines. A good leader (like the President) has to master the elements of group dynamics. In a particular group, even with generals, there are one or two (or more) dominant members whose opinions, views, and decisions strongly influences the rest, get a hold of these individuals and you hold the group in a vice like grip. In the military, of course rank and seniority plays a big role but not always. Once this pecking order is established, its easy to direct the group in any direction as it is just a matter of following “lawful orders” as they say. If you are conditioned to it, it is easier to follow orders than to question them. The generals in the article who had a bout of conscience after retirement were just behaving normally, it is unthinkable at this level (generals) to think about dissenting. Even if you have any doubts following orders, training almost always takes over and the loyalty reflex takes over. Loyalty, or at least a particular brand of it is ingrained in the officers since the start, and this concept of loyalty helps the officers decide between staying, resigning, and renouncing. This unique concept of loyalty is best understood if we take a look at the LOYALTY PLEDGE which goes“If you work for a man, in heaven’s name work for him, speak well of him, and stand by the institution he represents. If you continuously gripe (or is it growl?) or complain, why, resign your position? And when on the outside, damn to your hearts content. But as long as you are part of the institution, love it, do not condemn it, for if you do, the first high wind that comes along will blow you away, and probably, you will never know why.†This is basically a modified version of Elbart Hubbard’s poem, you see this in the offices and barracks. So you see, renouncing after you’re out of service is acceptable. All other considerations, loss of benefits, dishonorable discharge, etc. come after this “rationalization.â€
Manila Bay Watch on Sun, 21st Oct 2007 12:41 am
Same thing they say in the UK forces, a member of the UK forces is expected not to say anything derogatroy against the British military institution for as he/she accepts ‘the Queen’s shilling.’
This is very different however from speaking against a superior (although may not acceptable in theory even in least reputable military anywhere in the world) for there is still that standing doctrine that speaking against an individual to denounce the wrong committed by that individual or individuals in the military is NOT SPEAKING AGAINST THE institution.
Manila Bay Watch on Sun, 21st Oct 2007 12:42 am
Oooops, “FOR AS LONG as he/she accepts ‘the Queen’s shilling.”
ramrod on Sun, 21st Oct 2007 12:48 am
mbw,
If you need to learn a European language in prep for European posting, what would it be? My boss says French, is this okay?
ramrod on Sun, 21st Oct 2007 12:49 am
Oooops, “FOR AS LONG as he/she accepts ‘the Queen’s shilling.†– mbw
Aha!
Manila Bay Watch on Sun, 21st Oct 2007 12:57 am
Ramrod,
I reckon French is as good a foreign language as any to learn. But I say that because that’s the foreign language I know and know very well. Apart from that, I’d say French along with English of course are the two major languages of the EU and I suppose, it is very convenient to know French.
However, in principle German is the most widely spoken foreign language in Europe (next to English) population wise, i.e., 78 million Germans on top of most of the Eastern European nations that now have joined the EU, all 10 of them speak German widely and German is considered the language of business in those countries.
I learned both German and French at the beginning and became fluent in French (not in German), both were easy to learn so if I were you, I’d learn both. But if you speak French, you can deal with almost anyone in the EU too because as I say, it is one of the 2 major languages in the EU.
Chabeli on Sun, 21st Oct 2007 12:58 am
Ramrod, your analyses are very informative. Good job.
Manila Bay Watch on Sun, 21st Oct 2007 12:58 am
Ramrod,
Depending on the European posting if it’s in France or in the EU Capital, then by all means, you must learn French. (Very easy to learn!)
ramrod on Sun, 21st Oct 2007 12:59 am
mbw,
Have you read this? This was posted quite some time ago, see Oplan Greenbase. Its quite interesting, especially the bombing of Sasa Wharf (Davao). I couldn’t also find any good reason why the MILF would do such a thing as the warehouses of the plantations are located here and these companies have had a very good relationship with the rebels (giving them work). In fact, I will be going there next month for a plantation visit. Its a yearly thing that I do which is not particulary enjoyable as you have to take a ride in a Cessna plane, but I always survive by praying the rosary while in the air.
http://www.sundalo.bravehost.com/From%20the%20Soldiers.htm
vic on Sun, 21st Oct 2007 1:01 am
I think the Military are conditioned from the very beginning to take orders from their civilian masters and carry them to fruition even if they, personally not in agreement with the mission.
Nothing can demonstrate this more than the Royal 22nd Regiment known as the “Van Doos”. Quebecois (people of Quebec) in a substantial Majority is against the Canadian mission in Afghanistan, and that would be also assumed that personally the Generals who command the Van Doos ( all Quebecois member infantry) and the soldiers themselves do not agree with the mission, but not a single personnel of the Van Doos say anything against it. In fact they are as eager to complete the mission and go back home. For soldiers if ordered by a lawfully mandated Civilian Commanders, forward they march into battlefields and ready to offer the ultimate sacrifice, not a whimper against the Command and their Civilian Masters…
ramrod on Sun, 21st Oct 2007 1:02 am
mbw,
I sent you something with a link but its “awaiting moderation.”
Okay, so French it is, I find the language quite sexy anyway.
Manila Bay Watch on Sun, 21st Oct 2007 1:05 am
Ramrod,
Do I take it you are going to be posted in France! If so, wonderful — you will love it there and if you speak French, they’d adore you.
Let me know if so… cvj and I have met in person already if you are planning to meet him in Singapore, I’ll ask him to give you my number.
A très bientôt!
ramrod on Sun, 21st Oct 2007 1:11 am
vic, mbw
Some time ago mlq3 referred this book to me, I was lucky to buy the last one in National Bookstore Megamall. Its “Closer than Brothers” by Al McCoy, it is basically quite an extensive research into two classes in the PMA, ‘40 and ‘71, and shows the different schools of thought in the Philippine military today. From here you will understand Honasan and even Trillanes better.
http://www.amazon.com/Closer-Than-Brothers-Philippine-Military/dp/0300077653/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/105-4514866-9906846?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1191726744&sr=8-1
ramrod on Sun, 21st Oct 2007 1:16 am
hi guys,
I sent a link for a book “Closer than Brothers” by Al McCoy, its still awaiting moderation, if haven’t read it yet, please do. Its the least I can do for my friends who are oftentimes judged unfairly.
I have to go now or I will face sanctions from my own domestic dictator.
ramrod on Sun, 21st Oct 2007 1:39 am
mbw,
I was scheduled to go to Singapore this Nov 5 for our regular management meeting. Unfortunately, our Managing Director got this idea of web conferencing, so we won’t have to travel from the far reaches of SEA (south east asia) to meet, outdo each other’s powerpoint presentations, and argue. Of course, we all miss out on the dinner and beer afterwards. I think this experiment will not work.
Dr. D. on Sun, 21st Oct 2007 2:20 am
Sir Ramrod, I think you didn’t answer the first part of Manolo’s question. Can we know your take on these, sir?
coffeewithamee on Sun, 21st Oct 2007 2:30 am
ramrod,
just wanted to drop a line and say that i found your analysis informing and quite interesting.
Marie on Sun, 21st Oct 2007 8:14 am
The turn of events and timing of the bombing is, to me, really suspicious. Somebody (somebodies) must be feeling relieved and happy now coz the perpetuating political/economic/moral issue is no longer in the headlines. Thanks to the bombing?? Oh my lord, if this is the kind of mentality they have, we’re in constant danger. Let’s be observant and watchful!
Francis on Sun, 21st Oct 2007 8:20 am
Since everyone is interested about blast effect (structural effect not political or psychological):
A truck can contain about 4,000+ kilos of TNT
A car can contain 200 to 1500+ kilos of TNT
A briefcase can contain about 20+ kilos of TNT
A pipe bomb about 2 to 3 kilos of TNT
(a 60mm mortar contains about 1kilo of explosive)
The Rizal Day bombing executed by the Islamic groups used about 1 kilo equivalent of TNT (they used ammonium nitrate-based according to the confessions)
History tells us the Islamic bombings are always targeted at multiple sites (even if they do it in Mindanao) this is to ensure they will have at least one detonation.
All I can say is that the recent bombing is an EVIL act. Whatever the intent of it was.
Below is a link with more detailed numbers on the difference between TNT and nitrate based explosives.
http://stason.org/TULARC/science-engineering/chemistry/13-8-What-is-the-chemical-structure-of-common-explosives.html
Shaman of Malilipot on Sun, 21st Oct 2007 10:48 am
The only difference between the London bombing and the Glorietta bombing is that Tony Blair had the trust of the British people while GMA is generally distrusted and mistrusted by the Filipino people. Any call from her will always be eyed with skepticism and suspicion, or even cynicism.
Manila Bay Watch on Sun, 21st Oct 2007 11:20 am
The UK has already posted a negative travel advisory against RP:
UK warns citizens on travel to RP
By Cynthia Balana
Inquirer
Last updated 01:38am (Mla time) 10/21/2007
MANILA, Philippines — The United Kingdom has cautioned its citizens about traveling to the Philippines in the wake of the Glorietta 2 mall bombing last Friday, advising them that there was “a high threat from terrorism throughout the Philippines.â€
France’s travel advisory that was posted in June and valid until 21st Oct is not as bad as the UK’s and only advises its citizens not to travel to Western Mindanao, Basilan, Tawi-Tawi, Sulu.
Tsokolet on Sun, 21st Oct 2007 11:27 am
We were expecting for the COA report to appear in the main page & headlines on the following day, but the unexpected loss of lives and this cowardly act grabbed the news. My prayers to the souls of the innocent victims.
LTA on Sun, 21st Oct 2007 11:31 am
I nominate Gloria Pidal and her top henchmen ,Ronnie D’
Puno,Gonzales and Mr Esperon for the Nobel WAR Prize! Well deserved!
Equalizer on Sun, 21st Oct 2007 11:47 am
To the Real Mastermind:
You can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you can not fool all of the people all of the time.
Abraham Lincoln
Equalizer on Sun, 21st Oct 2007 12:07 pm
To the Real Mastermind:
Isaiah 1:15″ And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you: yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear: your hands are full of blood.â€
Abe N. Margallo on Sun, 21st Oct 2007 12:15 pm
Manolo, ramrod,
I guess in Insurgent Pinoy generals, US too I had the chance in April 2006 to grapple with some of the issues in Fred Kaplan’s “Resign, Retire, Renounce.â€
As it is, resignation is an option not only to senior military officers but also to any civil servant, military or not, from senators and congressmen to public school teachers and government clerks. If these public agencies have already lost their trust in the president or in the legitimacy of her regime, they have the power, the right and the duty to resign either individually or en masse.
So, for instance, if these public servants truly believe that President Arroyo: 1) Betrayed their trust by failing satisfactorily to explain up to this time why she was sorry for calling COMELEC Commissioner Garcilliano as recorded in the “Garci tapesâ€; 2) Was totally remiss in her duty to faithfully execute the laws of the land by not ordering the immediate prosecution of COMELEC Chairman Abalos for the crime of bribing a member of her cabinet in connection with ZTE deal; or 3) Allowed multi-acts of bribery to take place in the president’s official residence, they are essentially obligated “to fall on their swords.â€
The self-sacrifice of resignation as an expression of dissent could be more efficient than certain extra-constitutional means or perhaps even the exercise of People Power through street protests.
john marzan on Sun, 21st Oct 2007 12:19 pm
matanong lang, what explosives were used during the rizal day bombing at yung superferry bombing? c4 rin?
deVilsadVc8 on Sun, 21st Oct 2007 12:19 pm
it must be fate. it must be an act of God. it must be foreordained. but always, and everytime this admin is on the verge of collapsing, something always comes up to save it. which leads me to think that: Gloria, God did put you there. and he’s keeping you there! no other explanation for it. God wants you to do something special. perhaps its the end time and you’re part of the scourge that will be unleashed. much like what Bush has been for the american people.
Pat Evangelista, on her column, says somethings I agree with wholeheartedly. but esp this:
deVilsadVc8 on Sun, 21st Oct 2007 12:25 pm
much like how I hated when DJB used the marines’ beheadings as a springboard for his HSA advocacy, so also does my stomach turn when the opposition are more quicker to denounce this admin as the culprit rather than give allowance for grievance of the dead.
much like how Bush picked up the memories of the dead in the 9/11 bombing and flung it at the american people to serve his own agenda.
shameless.
Equalizer on Sun, 21st Oct 2007 12:29 pm
“”Laban sa kanila, kailangan tibayin natin ang loob, magkapitbisig, magsikap at magsakripisyo at huwag magpadala sa mga nagbubunsod ng gulo, takot, at hidwaan sa halip sama-sama tayong magmatyag sa mga banta sa paligid at balakid, at patuloy na lumikha ng yaman at trabaho para sa bayan,” said President Arroyo.ABS-CBN”
Translation(What she is really trying to say:”Lets’s Move On! Forget the ZTE Scandal,the Briberies in the Palace,Catch us if You Can!”
ramrod on Sun, 21st Oct 2007 12:42 pm
Lets pray that this incident will not reduce us, Filipinos into divisiveness, Christians against Moslems, against Rightists, against Leftists – breaking us down into narrowminded hate groups, eying each other with suspicion, killing each other, when what we should be doing is to join hands in search for the truth.
Equalizer on Sun, 21st Oct 2007 12:47 pm
THE DEATH of democracy in our country is not likely to be the result of political assassination. It will be a slow extinction from the apathy of the public to the innumerable cases of official corruption in Gloria Arroyo’s government.NESTOR MATA,MALAYA
Abe N. Margallo on Sun, 21st Oct 2007 12:52 pm
I know too little, and it would be an insult to those who have suffered and died to make this political. Pat Evangelista
I’m sorry Pat and Devilsavdc8 but unfortunately it is very political.
RR Raneses had said it so eloquently in his blog a day before the blast how I wish I had written it myself:
If there’s one great danger the Philippines faces now, it’s not that too much politics is going on but that too little of it is actually present. From the President, her opponents, political commentators, down to the average citizen and the working classes everyone seems to be afflicted with an infectious itch to scratch politics away the moment it makes its presence felt. It is a fatal allergy – one that numbs the senses and inhibits one’s capacity for judgment, although, even this has become an undesired endeavor as well, it seems. The symptoms are difficult to recognize because the endless, at times irritating appeals to objective facts and accurate, unopinionated observations provide easy and quick medication. Interestingly, death certificates are also fact-obsessed: time of death up to the last second, cause of death in the most accurate prognosis. This is the danger of too little politics: the elevation to the highest pedestal of life and death in their barest, naked fact.
But it is a widely unrecognized danger because danger itself has become endangered. The dangerous does not have any hold on our imagination anymore because even it has become safe. Come to think of it, there are no more genuinely dangerous spaces nowadays really. Even the mountains and the oceans have lost their capacity to make us tremble in danger. That’s why politics because it is dangerous to life-itself has come to be tamed; is seen to be in need of taming. But politics, because it is unencumbered action has a propensity to be tragic and to result in tragedy. What is happening in the Philippines (and elsewhere) is how one political philosopher beautifully put – a tragedy of tragedy. We have become beings no longer fascinated by the spontaneity of action. In fact, i think there is a spreading (and alarming) desire for numbness. No longer laziness, but numbness. We want everything planned, collectivized, organized and compartmentalized. Like the laws of the market, we want everything predictable, governed by the invisible hand which will manage, harmonize and govern our self-interests. And because we have demonized tragedy, we no longer recognize its spectral presence among us.
Why are we afraid of politics? This I guess is the most important question crying out for an answer. And the question behind it is a more fundamental human question: why are we afraid of fear?
Equalizer on Sun, 21st Oct 2007 1:00 pm
“Lets pray that this incident will not reduce us, Filipinos into divisiveness, Christians against Moslems, against Rightists, against Leftists – breaking us down into narrowminded hate groups, eying each other with suspicion, killing each other, when what we should be doing is to join hands in search for the truth.RAMROD”
Sir Ramrod:Tungkulin natin, sir, na igalang ang pagbubuwis ng buhay ng Sundalo tagapagtangol ng Pilipino,sa pamamagitan ng pagiging tunay sa ating pagka-Pilipino – Maka-Diyos,Makabayan at MAKATAO.
Abe N. Margallo on Sun, 21st Oct 2007 1:06 pm
(Before I go, I’m reposting this comment w/o the hyperlink to skip moderation)
Manolo, ramrod,
I guess in Insurgent Pinoy generals, US too I had the chance in April 2006 to grapple with some of the issues in Fred Kaplan’s “Resign, Retire, Renounce.â€
As it is, resignation is an option not only to senior military officers but also to any civil servant, military or not, from senators and congressmen to public school teachers and government clerks. If these public agencies have already lost their trust in the president or in the legitimacy of her regime, they have the power, the right and the duty to resign either individually or en masse.
So, for instance, if these public servants truly believe that President Arroyo: 1) Betrayed their trust by failing satisfactorily to explain up to this time why she was sorry for calling COMELEC Commissioner Garcilliano as recorded in the “Garci tapesâ€; 2) Was totally remiss in her duty to faithfully execute the laws of the land by not ordering the immediate prosecution of COMELEC Chairman Abalos for the crime of bribing a member of her cabinet in connection with ZTE deal; or 3) Allowed multi-acts of bribery to take place in the president’s official residence, they are essentially obligated “to fall on their swords.â€
The self-sacrifice of resignation as an expression of dissent could be more efficient than certain extra-constitutional means or perhaps even the exercise of People Power through street protests.
ramrod on Sun, 21st Oct 2007 1:10 pm
I have to agree with Abe N. Margallo, the fact that a greater number of Filipinos have decided not to care, not to participate, and completely succumbed to apathy and learned helplessness will serve only to tie our hands, render us as a people inutile to chart our own destiny. Would we rather have someone do it for us?
cvj on Sun, 21st Oct 2007 1:16 pm
Abe, i remember DJB also arrived at the same conclusion last year:
http://philippinecommentary.blogspot.com/2006/03/citizen-soldiers-moral-dilemma.html
Equalizer on Sun, 21st Oct 2007 1:20 pm
ONE DAY THEY CAME
One day they came and they took the Communists
And I said nothing because I was not a Communist
Then one day they came and they took the student activists
And I said nothing because I was not a student activist
One day they came and they took Jonas
And I said nothing because he was not part of my family
One day they bombed Ayala mall
And I said nothing because no one from my family got hurt
Then one day they came and they took me
And I could say nothing because I was as guilty as they were
For not speaking out and saying that all men have a right to freedom!
Equalizer on Sun, 21st Oct 2007 1:28 pm
Senator Trillanes:
Be steadfast! You have nothing to lose but your chains!
Willy on Sun, 21st Oct 2007 1:34 pm
There is nothing wrong with “objective facts and accurate, unopinionated observations” when it leads to concrete mitigating and corrective actions.
Ignorance and apathy do not usually figure, unless it hits close to home and family.
Minding your own business is a sad mantra.
As the story goes, a pollster goes house-to-house taking this survey. At one house the door is opened by a man with a beer in one hand and the TV blaring in the background. Pollster asks the man: What do you think is the more serious issue plagueing the country, ignorance or apathy? Before slamming the door shut in the pollster’s face, the man yelled: “I don’t know and I don’t care!â€.
Equalizer on Sun, 21st Oct 2007 1:47 pm
“Ignorance and apathy do not usually figure, unless it hits close to home and family.
Minding your own business is a sad mantra.Willy”
How true! the Pinoy cares only for his own “family”.Clearly, his concept of nationhood, or being Filipino, begins and ends in his family’s struggle, and just being responsible to his family is enough responsibility towards the country.
frombelow on Sun, 21st Oct 2007 1:56 pm
Is it apathy or lack of direction? People are disgusted with the things are shaping up. The massive corruption and other scandals which are more than enough for western governments to fall.
But people are lacking in direction. When Mahatma Gandhi led the Indian people, that society is in long slumber after leaderts after leaders failed their aspiration. Until a leader came.
frombelow on Sun, 21st Oct 2007 2:07 pm
Going back to Glorietta. Itr will be too naive for us to think that the bombing was done by amateurs. Or they could be amateurs really. They could have the capability to stage that act but do not have the savvy to follow it up with correct political moves to further their goal.
Or could it be possible that a gorup in our society which perpetrated this bombing are actaully busy now analyzing the gains of the event and now plotting their next move.
Or could it be that a group is so amateur that it has mistakenly assumed that nobody will die as the bomb is not anti-peronnel and is now in itself confused?
I am asking this question because apparently no credible group has owned the bombing.
AND THE POLICE INVESTIGATORS ARE TOO SLOW IN THE CONDUCT OF THEIR INVESTIGATION.
ARE THEIR HANDS TIED OR THE INVESITGATION BEING BUNGLED?
COULD IT BE THAT BOMBING WAS SUPPOSED TO HAPPEN BUT IT WAS NOT INTENDED TO KILL?
Equalizer on Sun, 21st Oct 2007 2:09 pm
From below: it was a bloody “Smoke Screen”!
cvj on Sun, 21st Oct 2007 2:20 pm
equalizer, willy, i think hvrds said it best in the previous thread:
The problem is, the “let’s move on” folks have been promoting apathy at a national level into a virtue. In their world, every act of outrage must be responded to by re-reading “12 Little Things Every Filipino Can Do to Help Our Country” or similar piece of literature.
Equalizer on Sun, 21st Oct 2007 2:23 pm
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Fire hits Glorietta 4 mall, already contained
By Thea Alberto
INQUIRER.net
Last updated 01:28pm (Mla time) 10/21/2007
MANILA, Philippines–Two days after the deadly explosion in Glorietta 2, a
fire hit another part of the Glorietta complex shortly after lunch Sunday,
a police official said.
Equalizer on Sun, 21st Oct 2007 2:25 pm
Breaking news:FIRE hits Glorietta Mall again!
qwert on Sun, 21st Oct 2007 2:38 pm
MLQ3, ram,
This is a link to help approach philosophically the issue of Fred Kaplan’s “Resign, Retire, Renounce†article and maybe we can comment on it later…
http://www.usafa.af.mil/jscope/JSCOPE99/Kaurin99.html
deVilsadVc8 on Sun, 21st Oct 2007 3:33 pm
Abe, I know. the very motive of the blast is politics, from whatever angle you look at it. whether the perpetrators be terrorists, the far Left, oppositionist, rogue elements in the AFP, the AFP itself, even our own government.
but you cannot discount that using the death of the victims for political purposes is detestable. im not advocating we blank out politics in the event bcoz people died. im saying, at least give respect to the dead, man!
give space for the families to grieve.
the dead and the victims first, before politics.
cvj on Sun, 21st Oct 2007 3:57 pm
Food for thought to those who have advocated civil war or bloodshed as a form of national catharsis. It does feel different when you see familiar people being killed in a familiar place.
ramrod on Sun, 21st Oct 2007 4:25 pm
mlq3, so far this is what I have been able to gather.
1. Earlier reports say they found traces of RDX. The explosive material in C-4 is cyclotrimethylene-trinitramine (C3H6N6O6), commonly called RDX (which stands for “royal demolition explosive” or “research development explosive”).
Of course, there is a possibility we will never find out as the water from the sprinklers may have washed out the traces by now.
2. Timing. Why detonate the bomb at a time with the least amount of traffic (people) at the mall?
3. Target Area. Why that area of the mall? Why not the most crowded?
4. Responsibility. Why is there no claim for responsibility from MILF, JI, Abu Sayaf, et al? It doesn’t make sense, what message does this bombing have?
5. There was only one bomb. The perpetrators were sure of what they were doing, they were sure of the method. (sure it will explode).
6. Why did Esperon/NSC wait for Trillanes to say something before confirming (?) that the C4 inventory in the military is all accounted for “except for the ones with the Magdalo?”
7. The blast may have destroyed the ceiling/roof because the floor is much thicker/stronger so the shock wave went up (path of least resistance).
8. Deaths and injuries were more blast related, impact of shock wave and debris from the structure (walls, glass, etc.). No metal pieces usually wrapped around the the explosive to maximize death and injury (otherwise known as shrapnel).
9. This bomb was more “percussive” than destructive, precisely calculated for maximum noise with minimal collateral damage.
Of course, some corners may say we should wait for experts’ findings and rightly so. We wait. But whoever is responsible for this will find out that the people are no longer that gullible, we can see through “experts’” jargon-talk, and sift through the clouds of confusion that seem not to have dissipated.
I am for grieving for the dead. We’ve done that already, its time for righteous indignation, let this “orchestrated disaster” strengthen our resolve to search for the truth. Its the least we can do for those who died – justice.
Ka Enchong on Sun, 21st Oct 2007 4:27 pm
“The turn of events and timing of the bombing is, to me, really suspicious. Somebody (somebodies) must be feeling relieved and happy now coz the perpetuating political/economic/moral issue is no longer in the headlines. Thanks to the bombing??”
I’m personally quite disturbed with the footages I saw this morning on ANC’s Dateline Philippines. They showed Aling Gloria clapping her hands while smiling (okey, laughing) as she was walking with her entourage. Initially, I thought that the footage was taken before the blast. Later on, I realized that it was probably taken inside MMC when she visited those injured (she was wearing her black dress with white floral accent, the same dress she was wearing when she issued a statement on the blast).
This may mean nothing, after all. But then again, if somebody were president, he/she would not want himself/herself getting caught on video clapping (or in a joyous mood) in times like this. To classify this as mere insensitivity is an understatement to say the least.
ramrod on Sun, 21st Oct 2007 4:30 pm
ka enchong
I saw this footage too, I found it strange, and awfully irritatimg, but I dismissed it as probably happening before the blast.
mlq3 on Sun, 21st Oct 2007 4:34 pm
ramrod, may i use your questions on my show?
Ka Enchong on Sun, 21st Oct 2007 4:34 pm
Ram,
That same footage continued with Puno giving a statement while Aling Gloria was several steps behind him wearing the same dress. Tsk. Tsk. Tsk.
ramrod on Sun, 21st Oct 2007 4:35 pm
mlq3,
Yes.
mlq3 on Sun, 21st Oct 2007 4:37 pm
thanks ramrod.
Phil Cruz on Sun, 21st Oct 2007 5:01 pm
When the 9/11 incident occurred in the U.S., the Americans rallied round their flag. Both opposition and administration officials united in an effort to recover and defend their country from further attacks.
Here, after the Glorietta blast, Gloria also calls for unity. Public reactions were mostly “She did it.†This speaks volumes.
Bokyo on Sun, 21st Oct 2007 5:13 pm
In the first place, what was she doing there? The security alert is at the highest level and her security aides would normally not allow her even to let anybody know her whereabouts (at least at that time) and take any chances to happen to the highest official of the land.
Dr. D. on Sun, 21st Oct 2007 5:13 pm
Ka Enchong… I also saw this one and I was aghast at the sight. I can’t imagine a thought or topic that’s so funny or happy, it could make her laugh and smile and clap while still “grieving” at the same time. UNLESS….
One more thing. I haven’t seen her express ANY signs of indignation for the perpetrators of this horrible incident. But that’s to be expected….
Good thing she’s a naturally poor actress. Her true emotions (or the lack of it) always show, and her thoughts expressed in her words and non-verbal gestures always give her in.
Equalizer on Sun, 21st Oct 2007 5:16 pm
sir ram:Do you think the military will support a Martial Law Declaration by GMA?
“Ang Pinoy Maka-Dios ,Makabayan”MAKATAO”
The Ca t on Sun, 21st Oct 2007 5:46 pm
If they do not intend to kill, why put it in a shopping mall? They could have put that in a highway where there are no passers-by. Sheesh.
The Ca t on Sun, 21st Oct 2007 5:51 pm
I am disappointed with the media too. Looking for every angle that makes GMA a monster.
Dr. D. on Sun, 21st Oct 2007 6:06 pm
I completely agree ramrod, so… after all the speculations, analyses, prayers, etc. have been expressed, is there anything we can do to help ensure that there will be no whitewash in the investigations? At the rate that the PNP is conducting their probe, and with Esperon’s uncorroborated claim that “all of the military’s C4 is accounted for” (while turning the tables on the Magdalo group), I can’t help but be uneasy with the way things will eventually end up in this tragedy.
(1) I thought the U.S. and Australia offered their help in the investigation? What happened? Did the Arroyo government simply ignore them? And can we, in a collective expression of our desire that an impartial investigation be conducted, demand that an independent foreign investigating body be allowed to also conduct their own probe (before the thugs could cover their tracks)? How can we express our vigilance that we won’t allow any cover-ups here?
(2) If there is a COA that literally ‘checks and balances’ the different government agencies’ financial flow, should there not be a parallel body for the AFP? I mean, given that the AFP has the capacity to topple governments or enslave the masses, shouldn’t they also undergo a strict scrutiny by an independent body, esp. given also our history of recurrent coup-d’etats and extra-judicial killings?
I just can’t help but feel enraged that, with the way things are, apparently there is no objective way to determine whether Esperon is telling the truth or not. Or is there?
ramrod sir, your thoughts on this?
Dr. D. on Sun, 21st Oct 2007 6:09 pm
I completely agree ramrod, so… after all the speculations, analyses, prayers, sadness, etc. have been expressed, is there anything we can do to help ensure that there will be no whitewash in the investigations? At the rate that the PNP is conducting their probe, and with Esperon’s uncorroborated claim that “all of the military’s C4 is accounted for” (while turning the tables on the Magdalo group), I can’t help but feel uneasy with the way things will eventually end up in this tragedy.
(1) I thought the U.S. and Australia offered their help in the investigation? What happened? Did the Arroyo government simply ignore them? And can we, in a collective expression of our desire that an impartial investigation be conducted, demand that an independent foreign investigating body be allowed to also conduct their own probe (before the thugs could cover their tracks)? How can we express our vigilance that we won’t allow any cover-ups here?
(2) If there is a COA that literally ‘checks and balances’ the different government agencies’ financial flow, should there not be a parallel body for the AFP? I mean, given that the AFP has the capacity to topple governments or enslave the masses, shouldn’t they also undergo a strict scrutiny by an independent body, esp. given also our history of recurrent coup-d’etats and extra-judicial killings?
I’m just outraged that, with the way things are, apparently there is no objective way to determine whether Esperon is telling the truth or not. Or is there?
ramrod sir, your thoughts on this?
Dr. D. on Sun, 21st Oct 2007 6:11 pm
[sorry double-post. MLQ3, please just delete the first entry, according to your discretion. thanks]
Shaman of Malilipot on Sun, 21st Oct 2007 6:11 pm
“but you cannot discount that using the death of the victims for political purposes is detestable. im not advocating we blank out politics in the event bcoz people died. im saying, at least give respect to the dead, man! give space for the families to grieve.” devils
But, discussing the whys and wherefores of the bombing does not disrespect the dead. The sooner we get to the bottom of this tragedy and find out who the perpetrators are, the better so that justice can be rendered to the dead. You don’t do that by keeping silent. And I don’t think discussions about the blast, even if they take on political undertones precisely because the bombing was certainly a political act, are crowding out space for the families of the dead to grieve. Discussing the bombing and grieving for the dead are not mutually exclusive. I’m sure many of us continue to pray for the dead and their families.
frombelow on Sun, 21st Oct 2007 6:25 pm
“I am disappointed with the media too. Looking for every angle that makes GMA a monster.” The Cat.
Doesnt have to. Doesnt have to. For all angles point to that.
Shaman of Malilipot on Sun, 21st Oct 2007 6:29 pm
I was listening to the press conference in Camp Crame yesterday morning and a PNP lady explosives expert was very studiously avoiding the mention of C-4, but instead was emphasizing that it was RDX, the main ingredient of C-4.
It was analogous to this scenario:
Q: Is it chocolate?
A: There are traces of cacao, the main ingredient of chocolate.
Q: But, is it chocolate?
A: We can conclusively say that there is cacao. We are very definite about it.
Of course, had she said that it was C-4, all eyes would have turned to the military.
Ka Enchong on Sun, 21st Oct 2007 6:40 pm
“I am disappointed with the media too. Looking for every angle that makes GMA a monster.”
Only a monster would have the capacity to clap and laugh while the people are grieving for the loss. If, indeed, the footage was taken during her visit to the injured, her actions are far worse than those who were quick to point out the political angle of this tragedy.
By all means, let us be disappointed with media for highlighting those angles. But, beyond that, I am more disappointed with Aling Gloria for failing to provide the media with more of her angelic angles.
cvj on Sun, 21st Oct 2007 6:43 pm
Maybe from now on, the media should pixelate her face.
Migan on Sun, 21st Oct 2007 7:15 pm
I agree with some people here regarding one particular issue. Shouldn’t have the President been kept in a safe and secured area for at least the rest of the day since G2 was bombed? Until they were absolutely sure there weren’t gonna be any more risks and threats to her safety. A red alert status was raised during that time, and it’s a bit odd that here you see in national TV, the nation’s highest ranking official out on a trip to the Makati Medical Center showing how bad she felt for the victims. Why so? She could have done that later on… unless of course they were THAT sure no more bombings or whatever acts of terror were gonna occur any time soon.
Also, if Trillanes was really just another idiot blabbering nonsense about government officials being behind the bombing, then why was the President so quick to address destabilization issues to the media, as if such allegations were to be taken seriously? Her speedy press release on that tragic day was surreptitiously more about giving hints and signals to the Filipino people of the reality of coup plots and other malicious activities rather than the actual tragedy and its unfortunate victims. Talk about conditioning the minds of the people, utilizing the “event” to effectively set the present political and social environment making them more conducive for the declaration of, let’s say, a State of Emergency and eventually, Martial Law… perhaps as a justification later on when “the time is right”.
qwert on Sun, 21st Oct 2007 7:15 pm
If the police are not yet sure, right after the bombing, if it is c4,TNT or whatever,then most likely they cannot rule out anything yet as to who is responsible, the situation is very fluid.There could be a series of explosions not necessarily in a constant pattern. In the 9/11 terrorist attack , I remember Bush and his immediate family was secured in a White House “bunker” and stayed there until they were very sure who did it and that “all bases are covered”, even Clinton who was in Australia that time was fetched by Air Force One.It beats me to see GMA doing the rounds five hours( more or less) after the incident. I can only thing of three reasons:
1.GMA is a very brave woman.
2.GMA is a hardheaded woman who does not care to listen to her security people(PSG).
3.GMA is “very confident” that there will be no more explosions.
Tsokolet on Sun, 21st Oct 2007 7:16 pm
“I am disappointed with the media too. Looking for every angle that makes GMA a monster.” –The CAt
For a simple reason, media’s perception mirrors that of the society. She simply doesn’t have the credibility and morality to govern anymore. Every move of hers is regarded with skepticism…and cynism.
Geo on Sun, 21st Oct 2007 7:16 pm
The intellectual dishonesty (or lazyness) on display in this thread is mind-boggling.
The lack of facts…combined with the conviction of a conclusion…equals a big ball of meaningless noise. Additional disruption. More chaos and distress. Nice. Good way to make things better, eh?
Wait. The lack of facts is due to a whitewash? Ohhhh. Because everyone knows that CSI can solve the puzzle in under an hour!
“Sheesh” is right.
It’d be amusing…if the issue wasn’t so damn important.
ramrod on Sun, 21st Oct 2007 7:22 pm
Geo,
You’re probably the only blogger who’s confused? Chaos and distress? What are you talking about? What planet are you in right now? UR ANUS?
ramrod on Sun, 21st Oct 2007 7:25 pm
Can anyone recall the incident On February 27, 2006? The one involving Marine Col. Querubin and Gen. Miranda? Was there a visitor that night, a prominent businessman, who said he was there for moral support to Querubin? Who was this businessman?
ramrod on Sun, 21st Oct 2007 7:29 pm
The intellectual dishonesty (or lazyness) on display in this thread is mind-boggling.
The lack of facts…combined with the conviction of a conclusion…equals a big ball of meaningless noise. Additional disruption. More chaos and distress. Nice. Good way to make things better, eh?
geo
Its strange, you never showed any hint of concern for the victims, nor indignation for the bombing, but you zoom in to the bloggers who are? Hmmmmmmm….very strange indeed….
Tsokolet on Sun, 21st Oct 2007 7:30 pm
Ramrod,
It’s a fact that people pretend to be confused, in fact that’s one good excuse for the apathetics.
ramrod on Sun, 21st Oct 2007 7:33 pm
tsokolet,
I seem to recall a prominent businessman visiting Col. Querubin that night, you know the marines headquarters last Feb? Do we have any way of digging this up? Old footages, newspaper articles maybe?
Geo on Sun, 21st Oct 2007 7:41 pm
Ramrod, you can look at my earlier posts. I have asked for compassion, sobriety and calm from the very beginning.
Injecting blind hatred into the matter is counter-productive. Why not wait and see what solid info can be established? Why the rush to get hysterical? What’s the purpose of that?
JIW (justice in waiting) on Sun, 21st Oct 2007 7:44 pm
My analysis of the Arroyo’s years in Presidency so far:
As of this time, I will give GMA the description once reserved for the very Popular and people loved U.S. President Ronald Reagan, the Teflon Lady President, nothing sticks to her slippery image..
She has the Education, an economist, educated in prestigious U.S. institutions; had political background and had seen the past administration mistakes.
But her arrogance and know all attitude had alienated the best brains of the country, whose vision of helping her “moving†the country forward into the First World had been frustrated and now resigned to just have to wait for another opportunities.
Her stay in power after surviving one Mutiny, her scandalous underlings, involving her administration in all kinds of “shenanigans†imaginable, and the also the involvement of her families and even allegation of her direct involvement, is only credited to the weakness and fragmentation of the oppositions. And also what is remaining around her, the group of “diabolical spinners†who for the price, had all lost their dignities…and she still believe deep in her that her Inflated Ego will save the day…
And apart from all the spinners, the Government is now halfway run by cabal of Ex-military men, almost two-dozens of them in sensitive government positions and they remain to have a very strong connection to the active Military command.
What we have here is the country where instead of the masses taking responsibility of taking these people out of power, have become cynical and no longer have the “i care” attitudes and most are just busy with the business of making a day to day living and resigning to the Belief that the Power Above All will somehow Straightened everything up for them…so much so that the Lady Teflon has all her way cleared to Infamy….
Dr. D. on Sun, 21st Oct 2007 7:45 pm
qwert,
You might as well add…
4. GMA KNOWS there won’t be anymore explosions (at least for Oct. 19).
5. GMA KNOWS there is no threat to her life. (the “terrorists’” target are the civilians, not her or the military.)
5. GMA is faithfully playing her part in a diabolically-concocted, albeit flawed, script.
tag123 on Sun, 21st Oct 2007 7:53 pm
ramrodd: the businessman who visited querubin was Inigo Zobel son of ENZO.
ramrod on Sun, 21st Oct 2007 7:57 pm
Geo,
I don’t see any blind hatred here, only indignation, of course directed at a figurehead. What do you expect, thats human nature, allow people to vent out their emotions, its not like anybody is calling for storming the palace gates.
If you followed the news reports since the incident, it almost mirrors the issues being discussed in this blog, even the details of the “bomb.” Hell, we have been talking about it long before it came out in the news. This should tell you something, people put in their two cents, analyze, filter, deduct, induct, synthesize, and integrate all this information in a group discussion. What we are trying to avoid is the confusion of jargon being used by the so called investigators, as bloggers of this sight, we are more intelligent than most people would like to think and do not limit ourselves to the one dimensional pc monitor. Some of us went to the site, talked to friends in the military, police, even bystanders there.
Chaos and distress is the last thing on our minds, we need to look at all angles with educated intelligent vigilance.
There is no such thing as blind hatred in this blog, if there is, the habitues themselves initiate necessary corrections.
tag123 on Sun, 21st Oct 2007 7:57 pm
“As of this time, I will give GMA the description once reserved for the very Popular and people loved U.S. President Ronald Reagan, the Teflon Lady President, nothing sticks to her slippery image..
She has the Education, an economist, educated in prestigious U.S. institutions; had political background and had seen the past administration mistakes.JIW”
JIW:pls tell me why GMA has deteriorated this far considering that the “Macapagal” family honor was also at stake in her presidency?why is she so different from her father who was known to have the”common man”touch?
ramrod on Sun, 21st Oct 2007 8:01 pm
“ramrodd: the businessman who visited querubin was Inigo Zobel son of ENZO.” – tag123
Thanks tag123. I knew someone looked familiar. Just out of curiosity, far fetched really, how is this guy related to the Ayalas?
JIW on Sun, 21st Oct 2007 8:08 pm
JIW:pls tell me why GMA has deteriorated this far considering that the “Macapagal†family honor was also at stake in her presidency?why is she so different from her father who was known to have theâ€common manâ€touch?
I can’t for the life of me understand why..but most likely the influence of the people around her..
Study the family of her Husband Miguel family history. His dad was once alleged to be the king of ‘numbers game’ in his province…and the people who conspired along with her to take the Presidency the “unconstitutional way” where she could had easily made it the right way, considering her education and her family background. There is a saying that once you dance with the devil, you just can’t away from its grip and you can dance as good as the devil itself…
cvj on Sun, 21st Oct 2007 8:12 pm
JIW, tag123, over at Ellen’s blog, i read that GMA takes after her Mother.
ramrod on Sun, 21st Oct 2007 8:12 pm
Shaman of Malilipot
You noticed that too. Strange isn’t it, now the site is awash with water…
JIW on Sun, 21st Oct 2007 8:15 pm
last statement would be better phrased this way:
There is a saying that once you dance with the devil, you just can’t get away from its grip and eventually you might even dance much better than the devil itself..
Shaman of Malilipot on Sun, 21st Oct 2007 8:15 pm
What Geo is saying is that when something happens, we should all sit tight, say nothing, and just wait for the government to feed us the explanations and conclusions and accept them as gospel truth.
Well, Geo, I have news for you. We are not robots. We are neither intellectually dishonest nor mentally lazy. We are just people who happen to possess the faculty of critical thinking and analysis and are determined to use it. If you don’t have it, we’re sorry for you.
tag123 on Sun, 21st Oct 2007 8:15 pm
rammrodd:
ENZO,the father of Inigo, and Don Jaime are first cousins.ENZO was eased out of Ayala by the Ayala matriach (Dona Mercedes ) because he sold the Ayala shares in SMC to Boss Danding.
So Inigo and JAZA(Chairman of AC)are 2nd cousins.
Equalizer on Sun, 21st Oct 2007 8:19 pm
for GEO:ONE DAY THEY CAME
One day they came and they took the Communists
And I said nothing because I was not a Communist
Then one day they came and they took the student activists
And I said nothing because I was not a student activist
One day they came and they took Jonas
And I said nothing because he was not part of my family
One day they bombed Ayala mall
And I said nothing because no one from my family got hurt
Then one day they came and they took me
And I could say nothing because I was as guilty as they were
For not speaking out and saying that all men have a right to freedom!
my version of “One day they came” by Pastor Martin Niemöller
ramrod on Sun, 21st Oct 2007 8:20 pm
tag123,
Thanks. No connection to the incident, I just remember seeing the two sometime ago.
ramrod on Sun, 21st Oct 2007 8:22 pm
cvj, how do I go to ellen’s blog?
deVilsadVc8 on Sun, 21st Oct 2007 8:23 pm
cvj, touche. but you see, it was Jekkyl talking, and even then Hyde would reason out that deaths from indiscriminate bombings are diff from those from war. at least in war, both sides have signified the readiness to die for their cause. it is this precisely which makes civil war mend a divided nation. it eliminates the losing side, and bonds the winners to a common cause. it’s the equivalent of a coin toss to determine our nation’s fate. you have to hope you get the lucky break.
shaman, i agree. i am not pointing to those discussing the bombing to flesh out truths and questions. i’m pointing to those who would use this to serve their own political agenda. you do see the difference do you? the dust not even settling, or all the injured even having been tended to, we immediately hear both admin and opposition politicians using the event for politicking. it’s crass. it’s tacky. and their message of condolences and grieving for the dead only said as if just an afterthought.
and that’s how these politicians sounded to me. not exactly in the same words, but the message is just the same. agenda setting foremost, condolences just an aside.
as to the issue of GMA having rushed immediately to the hospitals where the victims were rushed, shouldn’t she be commended even just for this? i mean, if I were president, that’s what i’d do. fuck my safety. that’s why PSG is there. if they can’t protect me when they’re on high alert, how much more if they’re not?
the fact that even this action is being questioned is symptomatic of how deeply people distrust GMA. was her action purely sincere? or is it an effect of a deep rooted habit for PR? i for one believe that GMA makes decisions based on PR fallout, not on what is needed.
Equalizer on Sun, 21st Oct 2007 8:23 pm
http://www.elllentordesillas.com
ramrod on Sun, 21st Oct 2007 8:25 pm
we get your point devils
Shaman of Malilipot on Sun, 21st Oct 2007 8:25 pm
Yes, Ramrod, it was as bright as the sun that morning. Maybe, you couldn’t fault the lady – the top honchos of the police and the military were all ranged before her.
Carlos H. Lopez on Sun, 21st Oct 2007 8:31 pm
i once was told of a tale that happened in Malacanang during the Presidency of Diosdado Macapagal. it goes like this:
A businessman went to the Palace to meet with the President for a business favor. In the process, the businessman offered the President with a bag of money in exchange for the favor. The President responded furiously mad saying that he was not to be swayed by this bribe money and threw out the bag of money out the window where a man was awaiting the expected throw.
Of course, my respect for the then President was that this was all a joke. At the rate GMA is running this government, my image of the then President my just take this joke seriously.
deVilsadVc8 on Sun, 21st Oct 2007 8:32 pm
Geo, if you want blind hatred, you should go over to Ellen’s blog. that’s pure unadulterated hatred spewing in there. the regulars there are jacobins in the making.
Equalizer on Sun, 21st Oct 2007 8:35 pm
Carlos Lopez:
the advice of her dad:
Gloria:
“I have sat at the sumptuous tables of power, but I have not run away with the silverware.”
Diosdado Macapagal
deVilsadVc8 on Sun, 21st Oct 2007 8:35 pm
ramrod, tnx.
cvj on Sun, 21st Oct 2007 8:36 pm
devils, i do remember you explaining to me in my blog that it was hyde speaking and i accept that point. however, you can tell hyde that in a civil war, or any kind of war, the chances of being casualties of indiscriminate acts is higher. that’s why the excuse of pro-Iraq war apologists along the lines of war is hell whenever the topic of collateral damage is brought up does not wash. Also, as Machiavelli said, unity can only be achieved via total annihilation of the other side which is almost always never the case. More often than not, the survivors ultimately recover to revisit previous wrongs on their adversaries and the cycle goes on.
Shaman of Malilipot on Sun, 21st Oct 2007 8:36 pm
Well, devils, politicians are politicians – they do the most outrageous things. For people who attend all the wakes that they can find, would you believe that any expression of condolence from them could be sincere?
Equalizer on Sun, 21st Oct 2007 8:37 pm
The words are supposed to be from Diosdado Macapagal to his child: “Tandaan mo anak, ang batang sinungaling ay ’di na tatangkad, uusli ang ipin, liliit ang binti at tutubuan ng nunal sa mukha.
[Remember, child, that a child who is a liar will not grow tall anymore, her teeth will protrude, her legs will become small, and a mole will grow on her face].â€
ramrod on Sun, 21st Oct 2007 8:38 pm
deVilsadVc8,
I just came from Ellen’s blog. First time I ventured there, now that is the scariest bloggers I’ve ever seen, this blog is inhabited by moderates compared to that one. I woulnd’t advise our friends Geo and Bencard to go there…Better stick with us, deep down inside we like you…
cvj on Sun, 21st Oct 2007 8:43 pm
Ramrod, i know i’ll get flak for this, by i believe the community within Ellen’s blog more closely represents the sentiments of the Filipino majority. Anyway, on GMA, they were right long before we were.
ramrod on Sun, 21st Oct 2007 8:44 pm
cvj
Personally, I prefer Genghis Khan’s “join us or perish!”
ramrod on Sun, 21st Oct 2007 8:49 pm
“Ramrod, i know i’ll get flak for this, by i believe the community within Ellen’s blog more closely represents the sentiments of the Filipino majority. Anyway, on GMA, they were right long before we were.” – cvj
I was right then, this blog is inhabited by people who deliberate certain issues first before taking any position. Honestly, before I joined this blog I was pro GMA, if I was met with so much hate messages in the beginning I wouldn’t have reconsidered my position.
cvj on Sun, 21st Oct 2007 8:52 pm
Ramrod, food for thought.
Equalizer on Sun, 21st Oct 2007 8:54 pm
To be very honest,I am arriving at the point of view that the bombing of the ayala mall was a very desperate act by a cabal with military connections for the purpose of diverting public attention away from “cash gift”bribery scandal.
The cabal had now moved from the “spins/cover-up”stage to the “martial law”preps.Very dangerous stage.
The other theories just don’t hold water:
1)extortion:easier to do that in isolated cell sites of the ayalas’globe network.
2)asg:plain hoax,the story is a creation of norberto gonzales
3)the abus:they holed up in the mountains of Basilan under severe attack of our marines.
4)the leftists/rightists:why destroy the momentum of the
public outcry agains the bribery scandals?
deVilsadVc8 on Sun, 21st Oct 2007 8:55 pm
beg to disagree cvj. in a civil war, all casualties wouldn’t be indiscriminate. they’d all be for either side. unless those killed were for neither side. in which case, so much the better for the reformation. an effect of the revolution which is much desired: it culls the apathetic.
did the counter-revolutionaries in France restart the guillotine all over again? did the Union’s victory resulted in the Southern states’ annihilation?
Shaman, yeah. i guess you’re right.
ramrod, if a revolution were to happen, regulars there would join the lynching, while regulars here would ride out the tide and wait for the counter-revolution.
Geo on Sun, 21st Oct 2007 8:56 pm
True enough. With all the forensic experts in here, who needs the inputs from domestic, FBI and Aussie professionals?
Who needs facts when you can just tell me what the deal is?
Equalizer on Sun, 21st Oct 2007 9:00 pm
“Honestly, before I joined this blog I was pro GMA, if I was met with so much hate messages in the beginning I wouldn’t have reconsidered my position.ramrod”
RAMROD:I find this strange coming from you.Why would you stay in your pro or anti GMA position on the basis of other people’s “hate messages?
From what I have observed from your blog entries,(without sounding patronizing)you are very discerning and therefore would have held on to a point of view regardless of other people’s noises.
I wait for your reply .
Equalizer on Sun, 21st Oct 2007 9:01 pm
CVJ: agree with your view.
ramrod on Sun, 21st Oct 2007 9:02 pm
equalizer,
You left out one theory, the Magadalo, they supposedly have unaccounted C4 with them, Trillanes will be placed in the spotlight I’m sure. Not that I like the guy, but I don’t think anyone of us actually knows him, talked to him, etc. so its unfair to judge the person.
If ever, he reminds me of my room mate in the academy who had 5 girlfriends (all at once), sometimes all of them would visit and we (poor room mates) end up entertaining the others (one per room mate of course), coming up with excuses. Not that I didn’t enjoy the experience though.
deVilsadVc8 on Sun, 21st Oct 2007 9:02 pm
ramrod, one way to make sure you strengthen a dissenting opinion is to attack the person holding that opinion. it’s human nature. the first reaction would be to dig in your heels, and remain bull-headed. even when deep down, you already know you’re wrong.
first lesson of diplomacy is: don’t hurt your opponent’s pride. in fact you should inveigle them, cajole them, make them putty in your hands. and then you move in to bring them to your view of things. never fails.
ramrod on Sun, 21st Oct 2007 9:09 pm
equalizer,
You must understand coming from the business sector, living in relative insulation, and if you just look at the country based on Bangko Sentral, NSCB statistics, you get the impression that “all is well.”
Regarding point of view, I’m not at all that unreasonably stubborn to hold on to one which eventually I realize is wrong. Sometimes if the environment is very hostile to begin with, you have a tendency to retract, but reading the threads on this blog makes you think and unless you’re mind is closed to begin with, makes you examine yourself.
At least thats my experience…
qwert on Sun, 21st Oct 2007 9:10 pm
“You left out one theory, the Magadalo, they supposedly have unaccounted C4 with them, Trillanes will be placed in the spotlight I’m sure.” – ramrod
ram,
This development might help assess the situation:
Trillanes sets rules before aiding Makati blast probe
“Detained Sen. Antonio Trillanes IV is willing to divulge evidence alleging that the government was behind the bombing of a mall in Makati City last week if an independent commission will head the investigation into the incident.
Trillanes had accused National Security Adviser Norberto Gonzales and Gen. Hermogenes Esperon, Armed Forces chief of staff, in the blast at Glorietta 2 on Friday that killed 11 people and injured more than 100.
The senator’s allegation prompted the National Security Council on Saturday to order the Philippine National Police-Criminal Investigation and Detection Group to investigate the lawmaker.
Trillanes reportedly agreed to be investigated on the condition that an independent and impartial board or commission will head the probe. The senator said he doubts that the government is capable of revealing the truth.
“It should be composed of retired justices, bishops, church leaders and retired leaders in the government,” he said, referring to the commission.
Interior and Local Government Secretary Ronaldo Puno, however, barred the senator’s request, saying this will give politicians the opportunity to take advantage of the situation.” – abs-cbnnews as of 6:43 p.m.
Equalizer on Sun, 21st Oct 2007 9:12 pm
ramrod: i dont buy the magdalo theory
1)Trillanes and group didnt hurt anybody in the “Oakwood mutiny” compared to gringo’s and general lim’s siege of makati.
2)Trillanes has been in the spotlight by virtue of his election as senator(11 million votes).
3)Again just like other leftist/rightist groups,why would the Magdalo group destroy the momentum of the public outcry against the bribery scandals?
Shaman of Malilipot on Sun, 21st Oct 2007 9:14 pm
Well, Geo, you just have to accept the fact that the inhabitants of this blog are real human beings with all their five senses alive, some even possessing a sixth, and who cannot help but react to the things that happen around them. Unfortunately, or fortunately, they are not inert scarecrows.
If you cannot abide all the “noise”, why blog in the first place. My friendly advice to you: take two aspirins and go to bed.
ramrod on Sun, 21st Oct 2007 9:15 pm
equalizer,
NSC/Esperon, needs to come up with someone to pin this on, or else they’ll come out incompetent.
Problem is, how many people will believe them?
Equalizer on Sun, 21st Oct 2007 9:23 pm
It is extremely difficult to remain neutral at a time like this.
What the “move on,catch us if you can” crowd want us to do is follow the infamous advice of Raul Manglapus.
Sabi nga ni Raul Manglapus sa mga kababayan nating pinay noon sa Kuwait during Iraq’s first attack, “If rape is inevitable, just lie down and enjoy it”.
I don’t want this country to be raped by the Pidals, Ronnie Puno , Mr.Esperon and company !!!
Shaman of Malilipot on Sun, 21st Oct 2007 9:24 pm
Ramrod, I salute you, sir. You have the humility to accept your mistake and change your position. To me, that’s the mark of an authentic person. Unlike somebody whom everyone knows whose slogan is: “My mother, right or wrong!”
Equalizer on Sun, 21st Oct 2007 9:25 pm
Sir Ramrod:who will I believe Mr.Esperon or Senator Trillanes?
The choice is easy for me.I still have a copy of the Garci tapes.
ramrod on Sun, 21st Oct 2007 9:29 pm
Shaman,
Borrowing from the essay “The Strangest Dictator” about MLQ1
ramrod on Sun, 21st Oct 2007 9:29 pm
oops its supposed to be hobgoblin
deVilsadVc8 on Sun, 21st Oct 2007 9:33 pm
the answer is simple. bcoz any undiscerning scmhuck could be easily led to believe the govt did it. so does it help the cause of destabilizers? what is the public outcry over bribery scandals compared to one over civilian deaths?
i could venture further and give ideas, but hell, why should i? i want GMA deposed, but I want her deposed of the people’s own volition. not under a manufactured revolution. bec then, it wouldn’t be a true revolution. it wouldn’t lead to true change.
Shaman of Malilipot on Sun, 21st Oct 2007 9:35 pm
The military said that the Rajah Soliman Revolutionary Movement, through a “Sheik Omar”, claimed responsibility for the G2 bombing. This appeared to be a hoax.
Now, Inquirer.net reports that calls to “Sheik Omar” are being diverted to the phones of oppositionists.
Another smear campaign in the making? A plan to throw the dog off the scent?
qwert on Sun, 21st Oct 2007 9:40 pm
Shaman,
Remember the reports we received about the Malacanang chef? I just discovered who that chef is.
ramrod on Sun, 21st Oct 2007 9:40 pm
equalizer,
As the events begin to unfold, evidence and circumstances (no acceptance of responsibility from the Islamists, Leftists) and the confirmation of C4, since access to this substance is limited to the military and big mining companies (of course I doubt the possibility that Ayala was attacked by angry miners), there will be no logical choice left but the military renegades (military pa rin). Trillanes speaking out may have been to preempt Esperon from coming out with this possibility via “deductive reasoning” kuno.
Equalizer on Sun, 21st Oct 2007 9:44 pm
ramrod:i’m also in business.The central bank statistics,the stock market record-high levels,the NEDA pronouncements sound hallow to me when I see the UNBELIEVABLE POVERTY in this country.
When I was growing up,my image of the poor people where those living in in “barong barongs”(” barong-barong ay isang uri ng gusali na binuo sa pagtatagpi-tagpi ng mga materyal “).I thought that was already abject poverty.
Now,people are living in terrible,terrible conditions!
The home for the very poor is now a shanty structure that is little more than a dirty wooden box balanced precariously on the sidewalk!!
As i moved around the country,I have realized that Gloria’s much vaunted economic progress is not filtering down at all!
About 40% of Filipinos, or more than 30 million people, continue to live in absolute abject poverty.
Hard to remain insulated and ignore the reality of the Philippine condition.
ramrod on Sun, 21st Oct 2007 9:46 pm
devils,
I agree with you. Lets try impeachment again, if it fails, try again, and again (hopefully our elected opposition will do better each time), I don’t like Bencard et al enjoying the sight of eggs on our faces. GMA’s resignation would be a bonus.
A military solution (coup) will be the last thing we need, soldiers have a nasty habit of enjoying power once they taste it.
ramrod on Sun, 21st Oct 2007 9:49 pm
“Hard to remain insulated and ignore the reality of the Philippine condition.” – equalizer
Its not if you’re out of the country most of the time, in fact I wonder how the bloggers living outside the country were able to see the real picture?
Equalizer on Sun, 21st Oct 2007 9:50 pm
“there will be no logical choice left but the military renegades (military pa rin). Trillanes speaking out may have been to preempt Esperon from coming out with this possibility via “deductive reasoning†kuno.ramrod”
We both agree i could be a group “with some “military connections” considering the C4 bomb implications.
But,tell me,sir Ramrod,why is is more “logical “for you to assume that is the Magdalo group rather than Mr.Esperon’s group???
why are you discounting the group of mr.Esperon???
sir Ramrod,pls explain
ramrod on Sun, 21st Oct 2007 9:55 pm
equalizer,
I meant the logical choice for NSC/Esperon to put the blame on will be military renegades.
qwert on Sun, 21st Oct 2007 9:57 pm
devils, ram,
I am also an advocate of resignation or impeachment but unless the rules are amended which is unlikely to happen with the status quo in the Lower House, we can all bid the impeachment option goodbye if the present rules are to be considered. It is going to be a yearly “impeach me” affair, so easy to file.
Equalizer on Sun, 21st Oct 2007 9:58 pm
sir Ramrod:who has more to gain? Mr Esperon or Senator Trillanes?
ramrod on Sun, 21st Oct 2007 10:00 pm
equalizer,
Trillanes has nothing to gain with this incident, in fact he stands to be blamed for it. Esperon needs his closure.
ramrod on Sun, 21st Oct 2007 10:02 pm
qwert,
You mean to say its going to be a yearly “eggs on our faces” as our resident GMA defense attorney puts it? You of little faith, more prayers…
Equalizer on Sun, 21st Oct 2007 10:06 pm
Sir Ramrod:BTW,I respect you whether you hold a GMA or anti GMA point of view..I just can’t stand fanatics from either side.
we are all Filipinos..maka-Diyos,makabayan and MAKATAO.
Alright sir?
ramrod on Sun, 21st Oct 2007 10:08 pm
equalizer,
we’re all in this together. goodnight everybody…
Equalizer on Sun, 21st Oct 2007 10:08 pm
“Trillanes has nothing to gain with this incident, in fact he stands to be blamed for it. Esperon needs his closure.ramrod”
In the court of public opinion we all know who has a higher
credibility rating.
I trust Mr.Esperon like I trust Ronnie D’ Puno.
Shaman of Malilipot on Sun, 21st Oct 2007 10:14 pm
Oh no, qwert, don’t tell me it was the Dona herself in toque and apron!
Equalizer on Sun, 21st Oct 2007 10:15 pm
“Glorietta explosion may be accidental!!
After sifting through the rubble, investigators are now beginning to think that Friday’s blast at Glorietta 2 mall in Makati City may have been accidental.
On Sunday, the National Capital Region Police Office (NCRPO) said probers found two power generators, air conditioning units, empty metal drumgs and the mall’s septic tank at the basement of Glorietta 2.ABS CBN on line”
A change in story again.
qwert on Sun, 21st Oct 2007 10:28 pm
Shaman,
You’re dead wrong!
“One of the things that made Medy Poblador famous in the Guest House, according to other sources who had worked there, was her good cooking.
Every Monday, she would bring food to Claudio’s office and, soon, word about her good cooking spread and brought other Cabinet officials over to Claudio’s office for impromptu picnics.
Ms Arroyo herself had tasted her cooking, the sources said.”
Equalizer on Sun, 21st Oct 2007 10:28 pm
Goodnight friends!INGAT!
“There is one safeguard known generally to the wise, which is an advantage and security to all, but especially to democracies as against despots. What is it? Distrust.” Demosthenes
Francis on Sun, 21st Oct 2007 10:40 pm
No one will gain from any moves from any side of the equations.
We are at a point that any side can exploit any forthcoming event whether its good or evil.
The question now is how do we stop this pendulum started by GMA…
qwert on Sun, 21st Oct 2007 10:41 pm
This is the reason why I am pretty worried about the possible scenarios. Now, that the impeachment option is technically plugged and the resignation of GMA implausible, the options left is another people power or a coup which is very complicated and problematic.The people power option will at the very least, shake the very foundation of the Supreme court, it was already compromised in EDSA 2. A coup (a succesful one) will eventually make us a banana republic. So, when JDV(a trapo) challenged the morality of GMA’s administration, I thought this could be an opportunity for the impeachment process though nothing is solid yet but then again JDV might succumb to the pressure. So the only option left is for GMA to finish her term,but then again the cha-cha scenario cum federalism is lurking in the dark and this is what I am afraid about, GMA extending her term to who knows for how many years, it will create political pandemonium and upheaval. This is an opinion I’d like to proven wrong.
deVilsadVc8 on Sun, 21st Oct 2007 10:46 pm
kudos to those who will recognize where these quotes come from.
cvj on Sun, 21st Oct 2007 10:51 pm
In the case of France, the cycle of violence started by the French Revolution culminated in the Napoleonic Wars. One million French (and their allies) died. In the case of the defeated Southern States, the victims of retaliation were mostly the blacks which is why Martin Luther King and the Civil Rights movement was a necessary event.
For our case, what is our guarantee that we won’t be like the Irish Catholics and Unionists, the Sunni and Shia, the Hutus and Tutsis, the Israelis and Palestinians?
reg0 on Sun, 21st Oct 2007 10:52 pm
“I am also an advocate of resignation or impeachment but unless the rules are amended which is unlikely to happen with the status quo in the Lower House, we can all bid the impeachment option goodbye if the present rules are to be considered. It is going to be a yearly “impeach me†affair, so easy to file.” – qwert
This where, I believe, the opposition made the biggest mistake. They shoudl have made sure that there are enough people in congress to revise the impeachment rules and support the impeachment.
They should have identified 71 or more districts and make sure that an opposition win in that district. In Metro Manila alone, where majority of the people are opposition, I can see a more admin congressmen were elected. If indeed the last election is a verdict on Gloria, how would you interepret the results in the congress.
Then there is the complain about the congressmen being bribed by admin through the the Pork Barrel Allocations . Then why not a singel oppsition move to suspend if not abolish the pork barrel
I just had so much doubts on the sincerity of the opposition to impeach Gloria.
Dr. D. on Sun, 21st Oct 2007 10:56 pm
from: http://newsinfo.inquirer.net/breakingnews/nation/view_article.php?article_id=95841
Kin of Glorietta victims ask Arroyo for justice, not cash
“…Zenaida [mother of one of those who died]… told the Inquirer she was disappointed with the way President Gloria Macapagal-Arroyo commiserated with them at the Veronica Funeral Homes in Pasay City on Friday evening.
The President, she said, simply offered her a job, instead of assuring them that justice would prevail in the investigation of the bombing.
“What I would have wanted to hear from her, was she would go after the perpetrators and bring them to justice,” Zenaida said.
There was no such assurance, she said, as Arroyo simply asked her if she had work and then promised to give her one.
She said the President promised scholarship to another son, sent to school by Niñno.
“My son just died of a bomb explosion… and all she could tell me was a promise of a job… and a scholarship for my other son,” Zenaida told Inquirer, while pointing to her chest.
She narrated that after the President left the room after meeting with the other victims’ families, a woman aide of the president called all the mothers of the victims to another room of the funeral parlor.
She said, when she entered the room, she saw the aide handing out envelopes saying “kunting tulong lang ho galing sa presidente [just a small help from the President)."
"I could not feel her sincerity; I was offended by her action, so I refused the money handed out by her aide," she continued.
She said she found it offensive to be given money that way.
"Ano yun kabayaran ng buhay ng anak ko? [What was that? Payment for my son's death?] We expected the President to tell us she would go after the perpetrators to give justice to those killed, but instead she asked kung may trabaho kami [if we have jobs],” Zenaida said.
She said she felt like being handed a “trick” money to stop grieving.
“Oh stop crying, here’s some money for your son’s death,” was the message Zenaida said she got from the actuations of the President and her aide…”
—————–
Incredible consistency. The silence about pursuing justice… the manner of offering money… her words and actions gave her away again…
Shaman of Malilipot on Sun, 21st Oct 2007 11:00 pm
Ah, yes, qwert, the niece of the man in robe and mitre, His Eminence, the Cardinal of Manila, who is not inclined to support impeachments. I understand he sometimes gets invited to the Palace to taste her niece’s cooking (with the secret ingredient?), and, perhaps, bring home a take-out bag, you know, as “pabaon”.
reg0 on Sun, 21st Oct 2007 11:03 pm
On apathy.
I ask every pinoy that I met here since the bombing happen.
95% of the replies that I got is “oo nga 9 ang namatay at at marami ang nasugatan.” And its just stop there.
Manila Bay Watch on Sun, 21st Oct 2007 11:04 pm
If I were the Ayalas, I would hire a foreign independent firm to investigate. The Ayalas can afford it and I’m sure they do not like the idea that their properties, tenants, clients and visitors are targets of explosions…
The Ayalas have enough clout, influence to be able to do this on their own.
If the Ayalas’ do this, their own findings would be far more believable than our government sponosred findings.
deVilsadVc8 on Sun, 21st Oct 2007 11:05 pm
your question betrays the answer itself, cvj. religion is the main difference that drives these strife to retain a life of their own.
if ever we go on the path of revolution, it won’t be on the backbone of religious fanaticism now, would it? or on the backs of apartheid like so many civil war in Africa.
reg0 on Sun, 21st Oct 2007 11:06 pm
BTW, why there is no discussion and anlysis on the voters turn-out last election. This could give us a picture the the concerm of public apathy.
Willy on Sun, 21st Oct 2007 11:11 pm
devils,
Big Brother? 1984?
Shaman of Malilipot on Sun, 21st Oct 2007 11:13 pm
Sorry, should be “…to taste his niece’s cooking…”
qwert on Sun, 21st Oct 2007 11:15 pm
Another thing that needs to be considered:
Some opposition Presidential “wannabes” does not want an impeachement to happen because if GMA is impeached, Noli will take her place and this will give Noli an undue advantage if he decides to run in 2010(political machinery,financial resources, etc..). So, they will just employ a low intensity conflict approach to this issue meaning they will just “bleed” GMA but will never allow her “death”.
qwert on Sun, 21st Oct 2007 11:22 pm
MBW,
The Ayalas should do it fast. The “possible accident” theory is being floated, and for all they know they might end up paying more to the victims of the blast. In “accidents” like this, the owner shoulders everything ( the blame, the charges, the settlement).
Shaman of Malilipot on Sun, 21st Oct 2007 11:22 pm
Well, regO (with the big O as in benignO), isn’t it what Bencard wants, apathy?
By the way, the toll has mounted to 11 dead. There are still some who are in serious condition. I really pray that the number will stop there.
Manila Bay Watch on Sun, 21st Oct 2007 11:29 pm
qwert, Agree! The Ayalas should act fast. Easy to hire foreign investigating firms.
Manila Bay Watch on Sun, 21st Oct 2007 11:32 pm
““What I would have wanted to hear from her, was she would go after the perpetrators and bring them to justice,†Zenaida said.”
Callous, very callous attitude by Gloria.
cvj on Sun, 21st Oct 2007 11:34 pm
Devils, the Hutus and Tutsis did not fight about religion. They were both Roman Catholic. The Israelis and Palestinians’ fight is more about land (e.g. sovereignty over Jerusalem, right of return) than religion (there are Christian Palestinians.) The Irish Catholics and Unionists (as indicated in the latter’s name) is more about Irish and British Nationalism. Once the cycle of violence is started, it acquires a life of its own.
reg0 on Sun, 21st Oct 2007 11:36 pm
Hey Shaman,
Typo error lang yan. La akong planong mag palitng pangalan no. I think zero yan hindi big O.
reg0 on Sun, 21st Oct 2007 11:42 pm
Shaman,
I dont think Bencard wants apathy. I believe just like you and me, he also wants a better Philippines.
levi on Sun, 21st Oct 2007 11:44 pm
devils,
Orwell’s 1984.
Shaman of Malilipot on Sun, 21st Oct 2007 11:45 pm
Dr. D., please understand that Gloria is deathly afraid of the word “justice”. With all the crimes she had committed and committed in her name, Gloria has been running away from justice which haunts her like an ogre in a nightname.
But, rest assured, that justice will catch up with her sooner or later. As they say, she can run, but she cannot hide.
Manila Bay Watch on Sun, 21st Oct 2007 11:46 pm
If the Ayalas hire a foreign firm to investigate the explosion, which they have all the right to do, their own findings could put an end to all the bickering. Why? Because their investigators would have far more credibility than the government sponsored investigators.
They should do this regardless of the political consequences because by all accounts, they will be spending money anyway on the victims, etc. What better way for them, if only for their own peace of mind and their tenants, clients, visitors, than to be reassured — that they are doing everything to prevent becoming future targets again…
If the findings point to an accident, then they will be able to arrest the structural or whatever errors here and now.
If the findings point to an external attack, then they would want to be able to pre-empt future attacks on their properties and help authorities in their own investigations.
Either way, they owe it to themselves and to the public to act swiftly before government mishandles or waylays evidences (wittingly or unwittingly).
All big companies in Europe have privates security and investigating firms on retainer. I’m sure the Ayalas have a local security firm at their service too but foreign security firms have the advantage of technology and experience.
Willy on Sun, 21st Oct 2007 11:46 pm
That is so sad that even a good gesture by GMA
will be accorded a deceitful take. I am no big fan
of GMA, but would at least allow a charitable
disposition to her offer to assistance in this case.
She did go there first thing to commiserate.
Shaman of Malilipot on Sun, 21st Oct 2007 11:47 pm
Sorry again, it should be “nightmare”.
Shaman of Malilipot on Sun, 21st Oct 2007 11:50 pm
Kina-karinyo lang kita, rego.
But with GMA, whom even you want to impeach, up there, our efforts to have a better Philippines get doubly hard.
levi on Sun, 21st Oct 2007 11:58 pm
This incident will hug the headlines for about a week.
After that, let’s get full speed into that impeachment option. JdV’s wife, according to Manuel Buencamino, have already joined the Black and White Movement. How true?
Shaman of Malilipot on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 12:02 am
Willy, you cannot quarrel with the feelings of a grieving mother. You’re not personally involved so you can afford to look at the scene dispassionately. But, it is out of line to make a judgment in this case.
Every victim of a crime, first and foremost, cries out for justice. And rightly so. But Gloria has just one solution to every problem – money. That’s all what she knows.
Proud to be Tsinoy on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 12:03 am
You know why people are apatehetic….because of all the politics ….even in such a tragedy as this…we still talk about the politics of the ssituation…not the inhumanity of it….pagod na kami sa pamumulitika from ALL sides….
Manila Bay Watch on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 12:08 am
It is imperative for the truth behind the blast to be dug out, whatever the cost. If it’s an accident so be it but it is imperative that findings be credible or this nation risks losing more than just 9 lives and injuring 100 in the future.
ay_naku on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 12:13 am
Just had to comment on this. Hehe, made me laugh out loud! Nice one, Shaman.
Manila Bay Watch on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 12:14 am
Agree, ay naku – good one, Shaman.
cvj on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 12:19 am
Proud to be Tsinoy, it’s not like the victims were hit by a tsunami. The tragedy was man-made and politics is behind the inhumanity. Even the father of one of the victims recognizes this.
reg0 on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 12:20 am
Exactly ! PTBT.
Pero paano natin ititigil ang pamumulitika eh talagang y yan na ang career at bread and butter nila eh.? There will always be a politicians in every tragedy like this. Nasa tao na lang yan kung paniniwalaan nil ayung politko o hindi. Siguro mas maiigi kung tatapatan ng mga tao yung sinsabi ng mga politiko ng walang halong politika.
ladybug on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 12:22 am
Thanks for the link manolo. I still keep hearing the sound of explosion in my head and reliving every horrifying moment. Grabe talaga. My take on this is that we always hear about explosions in the south or buses being detonated…parang malayo sa atin. I always thought “hindi naman tayo aabutan eh.” Putting a bomb inside Glorietta sends a message to the government that no one is safe from the terrorists….not even the mall owned by the wealthiest Filipino family and frequented by the affluent and Makati professionals. Hope you had a peaceful weekend.
reg0 on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 12:29 am
Ayala should hire a foreign and independent investigators? Pwede rin. Pero teka, the MBC is getting involved by donating to the cash reward. Why not the MBC use that money and work with the Ayalas to hire a an independent foreign experts .
magdiwang on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 12:36 am
How can all of you GMA haters able to convince us who are in the middle when all accusations thrown at her are all based on speculations devoid of any solid evidence. Cabinet ministers have come and go and yet they have not come up with any smokingun, so the talk of her government falling or getting impeach is a little premature since a significant number of people do not just buy all things she is accused of.
Proud to be Tsinoy on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 12:37 am
So….that’s precisely the point…nobody CARES anymore…because we make an issue out of EVERYTHING…remember the boy who cried wolf story….yan ang nangyari sa ating mamamayang pilipino. The government, the rebels, the as*h*le politicians, nobody ever cared. So why should THEY care anymore….all it’s about is who gets to get on the gravy train…..Mind you, I am not one of them (that’s why I still comment here) but it really is a very sad situation for our beloved country….
deVilsadVc8 on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 12:46 am
the Hutus and Tutsis fought bec of apartheid. same thing. Israelis and Palestinians’ fight abt land? again if it was purely land, it could’ve been settled with good mediation. but it took a life of its own when religion colored the issue. The IRA and the Brits? protestantism against orthodox christianity.
then how did the French revolution and the American civil war ended?
it was pursued to its logical end. and the bloodlust sated (in the case of the French)
Equalizer on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 12:49 am
The Ayala Group is one of the most respected business groups in the country.The “Ayala†brand name has been nurtured by decades of “above the board†business.
They will NOT allow an intellectual pgymy to destroy the work of seven generations of decent business leaders.
I’m sure that they will do something.I don’t think the Pidals can afford to “bribe†this very respected business house.LOL
Que barbaridad!
cvj on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 12:59 am
PTBT, first of all, it’s not true that *nobody* cares because as you point out, there are still people who do, namely you and the other commenters in this blog. On your use of “everything”, that’s also not true because it is technically impossible to make “everything” an issue. No one has the time or the space to do that.
Take this specific blog, what happens is our blog host writes about an issue (or issues), and other people respond to it. Right now, the issue of this thread is the Glorietta bombing. Before that, it was the cash gifts given to Gov Panlilio and members of Congress. Before that it was the Pulido-initiated impeachment. Before that it was the investigation of the NBN. Before that is a whole list of specific issues, the earliest of which is Hello Garci.
So your proposition that NOBODY cares and we make an issue out of EVERYTHING is not true. The above are specific issues brought up by people (not just politicians) who care.
Manila Bay Watch on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 1:00 am
Devils,
In the case of the French, didn’t end with the decapitation of the monarchs. Republic came at a slow pace. Political maturity was slow.
Napoléon’s exile to St Helena didn’t end the problems in France. Very long story…
Proud to be Tsinoy on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 1:04 am
Let’s put it this way…I can also say that the anti GMA folks decided to have somebody sympathetic to them plant a C4 bomb so that they can blame the military and GMA….of course the anti GMA peeps won’t buy that story right???? Point is…does it always have to be about politics….at the end of the day, why don’t we really help by commiserating with the families of the victims of this tragedy? Ilagay sa Luneta ang lahat ng politiko at i -firing squad sila! Para may clean slate ang Pilipinas…but wait….lahat pala sa Pilipinas, Politiko! Ha ha ha…..
Equalizer on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 1:05 am
“So your proposition that NOBODY cares and we make an issue out of EVERYTHING is not true. The above are specific issues brought up by people (not just politicians) who care.CVJ”
agree 100%
Proud to be Tsinoy on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 1:08 am
I am not saying WE don’t care…I am saying the average Filipino DOES NOT CARE anymore because EVRYTHING becomes an issue such that they became numb……
Proud to be Tsinoy on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 1:12 am
ALso, I am not talking about us making an issue out of everything…I am talking about the politicians and the media making an issue out of everything…I won;t be surprise if one day, they’ll even make an issue of somebody’s toupee in COngress…..
The average Pinoy I suppose has become tired of all these inanities they see and hear daily in their lives.. not realizing they get affected or worse, knowing they are affected but not caring because whoever replaces the Dame in the Palace will probably be the same shark politician who we’ll probably proclaim as even worse than Marcos, Erap and GMA combined…..and THAT is why they really don’t care anymore…..
Equalizer on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 1:13 am
Trivializing Hunger!
france :Qu’ils mangent de la brioche(“let them eat cake!” by m.a.
philippines: “Even I have missed one meal in the last three months!†by g.m.a
Willy on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 1:23 am
Shaman, well taken. I do not wish to quarrel with the feelings of a grieving mother. And yes, it is out of line to make a judgment.
I just meant to say that good things can be done purposely with a bad conscience, in the same way as bad things can be done inadvertently in good conscience. Specific actions can only be rightly judged on the face of it, lets leave it to God to judge consciences.
Spark on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 1:23 am
To the savants of this blog:
So whatever happened to the tapes of the security cameras at G2?
Anyone?
Manila Bay Watch on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 1:27 am
Heh! Equalizer, historians say it was La Dauphine who said “Qu’ils mangent de la brioche” and not La Reine Marie Antoinette.
La Reine Marie Antoinette was a foreigner in France.
When the sans culotte finally joined the middle and the intellectuals of France in the revolt, the first target of their ire was the foreign queen.
Poor Marie Antoinette, she stood no chance. Her father Emperor Francis 1er left her to her sort too (just like what the King Ferdinand did to his daughter, Queen Catherine of Aragon, first wife of despicable King Henry the 8th — Ferdinand left Catherine to her sort).
Equalizer on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 1:36 am
MBW: i learned something from you today!
deVilsadVc8 on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 1:41 am
It is a tragedy indeed, that a word such as politics carry such a negative image when defined simply, politics is just thus:
furthermore
it used to be that before, politics in relation to government is about census building. today, politics is anything but that.
today, politicking is taken to be bad.
“tigilan na natin ang pamumulitika!”
“kaya di tayo umaasenso dahil panay pulitika!”
“wag nating lagyan ng kulay pulitika…”
can it be that such beliefs are what permeates the vicious cycle of bad politics?
if ordinary citizens view politics not as an evil entity but as a process, if people treats politicking as a good way of threshing out ideas, if people actually had a good, healthy attitude abt politics – would we be in this mess?
would citizens who are good leaders then come forward and offer their services to the people? (wag ka na pumasok dyan. magulo ang buhay pulitika) hence, we are presented with choices bet lesser evils. the good choices shying away from politics and going into more “healthy” endeavors.
if people see politics as a solution, not as a problem – would we have lesser apathy and more citizen interaction with nation building?
the corrupt politicians’ greatest success in retaining power is not in widening their base of support, but rather in disillusioning more and more people over time.
how many of those counted votes in the last election are actually cast by a warm body? i bet more than half of the registered voters didn’t vote due to cynicism. and yet their registration and votes are ripe for use.
that’s why not voting aids cheating.
cvj on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 1:50 am
Devils, the key negotiating points in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is the status of Jerusalem and the ‘right of return’ (of Palestinians displaced during the Arab-Israeli wars). These are territorial issues. AFAIK, religion does not figure as one of the negotiation points.
Similarly, the negotiating points between Irish Republicans and the Unionist did not concern religion. Rather it was about the issue of reuniting Northern Ireland with the Irish Republic or remaining within the United Kingdom. Although the Irish were readily identifiable by their religion, the Irish as a people (distinct from the English) preceded such religious identification. As per E.J. Hobsbawm:
You can see the similarities between the indigeneous people of Mindanao (who happen to be Muslims) and the arrival of the Christian settlers from the north who took much of the land.
In Rwanda, there was inequality between the Tutsis and Hutus (but it was not termed apartheid) and this is similar to the stark inequality between the rich and poor majority although the ethnic divide is not that clear (except in the case of the Tsinoys).
I accept that religion is a key source of conflict but as the above examples show, it’s not necessarily the factor that sustains conflicts. Historic injustice oftentimes caused by earlier episodes of violence) and inequality are also drivers of conflict so i wouldn’t take any false comfort that because Filipinos are largely Christian, the cycle of violence, once started will not be sustained.
You have to remember that the American Civil War costs 600K lives. In the French Revolution, the Reign of terror alone costs 20K to 40K lives (per wikipedia). That’s a lot more than the Glorietta bombings for what you admit above is a coin toss.
deVilsadVc8 on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 2:00 am
MBW, but the catalyst was the revolution. from stagnation came – change.
yah, right. she missed a meal not bec of poverty. missing a meal bec you were either too busy or you were dieting is quite diff from missing a meal bec you were too poor to buy one.
wanna see how stark the gap is bet the have and have-nots? the haves diet, go on binge-eating and then purging, and thinks eating at carinderias is being thrifty.
wanna know how starker it is now?
there’s now the have-mores. and the gap bet the haves and have-mores is also widening.
the haves thinks 5 star hotels are luxury. have-mores treat them as rest houses for the paupers.
haves treats mass produced luxury cars as “in.” have-mores will only settle for limited editions.
haves still count in thousands. have-mores count in millions.
haves own more than one house. have-mores more than one island.
haves have personal drivers. have-mores, personal pilots.
think and reflect how lucky you are. born into the station you are in right now. as Manolo put it: social mobility indeed.
cvj on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 2:09 am
No argument there. As one of the parents of the victims said, they want justice for their son. Pressuring the government to get at the truth is one way of commiserating with the families.
I’d be more circumspect with such a scenario. Once the firing squads start, can the businessmen be far behind? As Devils has alluded to, there is such a thing as bloodlust.
True, and this is the best defense of GMA. It is up to us who care to show them that apathy is not a virtue. Don’t you think so?
shek on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 2:12 am
why not add honasan and lacson into the mix? they’re both capable of such an act and they both have retained their strong connections with those still in the armed forces. moreover, they’re both itching to take GMA’s position.
the bomb material may be from the military but we all know how easy it is to buy weapons from unscrupulous military men (or steal, if you’re stupid enough to be used by those who hunger for power). besides, seeing how the trust rating of GMA is at an all-time low, an act like this would be more of a liability rather than a tactical advantage. if the people around her were indeed responsible for that blast, then they made a serious miscalculation.
filipinos may be apathetic when it comes to politics in general but i doubt they’d take a martial law declaration sitting down.
as for that garci tapes, i still wonder why it came out only after FPJ died. it made me think that someone else wanted to benefit from it.
cvj on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 2:12 am
Sparks, sorry but i don’t think anyone here who’s awake knows. The savants are in bed (probably sleeping).
Ka Enchong on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 2:27 am
People looking at political angles in times like this are way much better than the “leader” who had the gall the clap and laugh while “visiting” the injured.
JIW on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 2:27 am
The question here if the Government is capable at getting the Truth? As we have experienced there is no truth in so many issues in the past..where is the truth about “garci”, about joc-joc and now the zte and the bribery scandal may have gone with the fate of the others.
But whatever this one truth that is needed to be brought into surface, but how do we know if it is “the truth” coming from the government that has lost most of its credibility? questions to wake up to…
deVilsadVc8 on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 2:33 am
in the case of the Irish and the British, religion morphed the conflict into a cycle of violence. in fact, peace talks broke down regularly bec the protestants who had acquired the lands feared that a treaty would reduce their power. in the case of tutsi and hutus, it may not be apartheid bec they were of the same race, but persecution due to a diff ethnicity is jz the same, dnt u think?
and one enduring example of religion as the “accelerant” and sustenance to and of violence, is the fight over the Holy Land. and bec religion is largely inherited, so too is the conflict. it never ends.
our being Christians is not what I’m banking on to stop the cycle of violence. our aversion to bloodshed is. just the horror of such an experience will make sure generations after take steps to avoid another civil war. and that means in effect, reforms.
cvj on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 2:34 am
JIW, very true, but it shouldn’t stop us from trying as government is not monolithic. Hopefully, there are professionals left in the PNP, AFP and other departments and agencies. And maybe even the Gloria-loyalists have had enough.
deVilsadVc8 on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 2:41 am
you know cvj. my attraction for a civil war is not coz i’m such a bloodthirsty man. i jz believe that such a war will prod the apathetic and those in stupor to take a stand.
our country is in such a mess bec the leaders leading us lack conviction. no one believes something is worth fighting for. no one believes that social reform is worth dying for. everyone is content for “change” to happen on its own.
the perfect depiction of the Filipino? Juan Tamad waiting for the apple to fall on his head.
deVilsadVc8 on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 2:43 am
and you cited figures of death in thousands due to wars? how many more due to hunger?
a thousand now in war vs a million more in hunger. is that such a choice?
machiavellian? have other alternatives worked?
Augustine on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 2:44 am
This is getting confusing now. They try to shift the theory, from bombing to accident.This is interesting and also ridiculous. I bet in few days, there will be stupid statement coming out from police, mentioning that it was not a bomb attack but it was an accident from basement.
Previously, they said they found RDX, now they said there is no residual material from explosives in ground zero.
Obviously, they try to hide something here. They seem to change the scenario now.
Just 2-3 days ago, Malacanang offered 2 Million for information on this bombing. Makati City offered 1 Million. Military said it was a terrorist act. Police said it was a bomb.
Now, they said, no residual material of explosives found in ground zero. It might be accident due to the presence of a volatile mixture of fumes emanating from the blast site.
This is really sad. It’s either we really have stupid policemen/government there or they just want to fool us again..again and again. This is really sad.
Hopeless….
cvj on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 2:46 am
Devils, i think were we differ is on whether the Irish were fighting as Irish Catholics or Irish Catholics. From what i recall, the peace talks broke down regularly on the issue of IRA disarmament. In the case of Tutsis and Hutus, i’m not sure if they are the same race but yes, they are ethnically different. However, it was inequality that fueled ethnic tensions.
I don’t see the logic in starting a civil war to avoid another civil war, i.e. experiencing bloodshed to avoid future bloodshed. Why can’t we just go directly to the genuine reforms phase?
The Ca t on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 2:49 am
By whom? Perhaps just by the GMA haters. Other people are not that narrow minded.
Do you suppose GMA should wear that mournful image until the time you say so. Even relatives of deceased people take time out from grief to attend to the living.
I will worry more if GMA starts ordering the confiscation of cameras and videos and allow pictures she authorizeto be published.
reg0 on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 2:53 am
Devils,
That was an excellent clarifications ( or is it lecture?) on the real essence of politics. I totally agree.
I believe, one way to address this conern on apathy is to do just that, explain to the pathetic crowd, that everybody needs to be involve in politics. Becuase liek it or not our lives depends so much on it.
JIW on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 2:58 am
you know deVil, that could be well true. during the U.S. civil war, brothers and relatives each took a stand and some in the opposite sides, but stand it was. it was bloody, but where would have been the U.S. if not for that conflict? but ours is not to that point where we are fighting a very contentious issue, like the breaking of the union by force or the abolition of slavery, but just something that could be with sincere intentions on all side is better settled on the table..but we have to start from the top..the cleaning of the national government and pretty sure it will filter down the bottom and the insurgencies, the terrorism could be dealt with one resolve, together….
reg0 on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 3:08 am
On trillanes, if he really wanted to help in pinpointing out the culprits of this recent bombings. why dont he just come forward and give us all the info that he had?
Enough of those alibis about an impartial investigating body etc etc. If he doesn’t trust the govt appointed investigating body, heck ,he can go to any anti GMA media or anti GMA columnist like Manolo or any Civil society group that he trust and provide us with info.
That is if he really have something with him that would connect Gloria and the government to the the bombing.
Di naman kaya, he is using the same, tactic that Cayetano used against the Arroyos. Now ,I wonder where are those boxes and boxes of evidence the he paraded and claimed to contain mountains and mountains of proofs against Gloria.
deVilsadVc8 on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 3:13 am
cvj, yes. we’re definitely arguing whether the Irish fought as nationals, or as a religious group. on Tutsis and Hutus, yes they are of same race but different tribes. it’s a tribal war actually. cannot be strictly classified as apartheid but more of genocide.
it’s not starting civil war to avoid a future one. it’s starting one to catalyze change. aversion to another one would jz be a consequent effect of starting one.
and why can’t we go directly to genuine reforms phase?
bcoz too many people are apathetic. a lack of conviction. people only appreciate things when it is hard-won. a civil war would form national unity. after the event, that is. survivors will have something to rally to. Filipinos would be deeply emotional, and extremely protective of their hard-won victory. for what? for a nation that they will build with their own sweat and blood.
people could care less abt a cross stitch work if it isn’t their own. they would easily be able to tear it or throw it away. but the one who made it would value it.
which is what we lack now. emotional attachment to our country. and which is what a civil war would cure.
reg0 on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 3:16 am
“but just something that could be with sincere intentions on all side is better settled on the table..but we have to start from the top..the cleaning of the national government and pretty sure it will filter down the bottom and the insurgencies, the terrorism could be dealt with one resolve, together….”-JIW
—————————————————
But why not stop from the bottom from the very peopel themselves elected these people “in the top”
cvj on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 3:18 am
Devils, from your reaction to the Glorietta bombings, i know you’re not bloodthirsty. As you have said above, “using the death of the victims for political purposes is detestable“, which makes me wonder why a part of you favors “culling the apathetic” to facilitate the desired reforms which is as political an objective as they come. In any case, i’m not as optimistic as you on the outcome of any civil war. At the very least, many more people would go hungry in times of war than in peace time.
Augustine, as Manolo said the other day, i think one of the keys would be the smell of gunpowder reported right after the blast. Does a gas explosion result in the smell of gunpowder? For that matter, will a C4 explosion smell like gunpowder? Ramrod, when you wake up, i appreciate if you can enlighten us on the above.
reg0 on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 3:19 am
Hey CVJ,
I tried using that
reg0 on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 3:20 am
ha ha ha. obviously it work
deVilsadVc8 on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 3:25 am
rego, thanks. people seem not to realize that removing politics in our life is virtually impossible. it is interwoven into everything we do as a society. unless you want anarchy, politics is what hold our society together.
jiw, we are moving slowly into that contentious issue. in 2010, federalism would be proposed. it would succeed. it would only be later on when successive districts fail financially that a clamor for a return to the Republic would ensue. by then, rich districts would refuse to be sucked back into poverty by leeches eager to siphon the riches of their districts. civil war would erupt.
cvj on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 3:32 am
Devils, in some of the past blog entries of Manolo (and some commenters), they said that the breakdown of Philippine society started during World War 2 with all its deprivations. My Dad, who experienced the war, says that he was so disgusted with all the collaborators who claimed that they were guerillas. That was not even a Civil War, but a war against foreign aggression where all Filipinos are supposed to be united. It did not result in the sense of country that you would expect. I think war brings out the best or the worst depending on who you are, but i believe the effects cancel each other.
Rego, that’s good to see.
reg0 on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 3:37 am
From inquirer headlines…
The bombing could be an accident that happened in the fully enclosed basement…
Another “eggs on the face” ? ( Note its question mark huh )
deVilsadVc8 on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 3:41 am
rego, i think belief in a top-down reform rather than the other way around is bec it seems so powerless to try to initiate change on your own w/o any assurance others would do the same. while reforming those “at the top” seems so attractive bec we only need to change a few others, and not ourselves.
it’s like riding the MRT. you won’t survive if you believe that if you try to initiate a line, others would fall in.
it takes a greater resolve to stick to doing what is right, even when everyone around you isn’t. it seems hopeless. but only bec people succumb to that hopelessness.
reg0 on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 3:48 am
True Devils but n the other hand, its on our selves that we have the most influence on. So wouldn’t that be more easier than “starting from the top”
Eh do it at the same time kaya”
The Ca t on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 3:51 am
But I say that people who look at other angles may be more broadminded than those who just zeroed in politics as the cause of the bombing.
First, why is it that is Glorietta which has bombing incident among the malls.
Remember 2000 when a bomb explosion also happened in the same shopping mall.
One angle could be business rivalry. Another may be business bankruptcy where explosion and fire could indemnify the insured from these loses.
Authorities should keep their mouth shut investigate first before giving a statement to the press.
We are a nation that is so dependent on gossips and speculations. We create our own ghosts. We terrorize ourselves.
deVilsadVc8 on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 3:54 am
i think there wasn’t even a Philippine society to begin with in world war 2. there was a country called the Philippines. but not a Philippine nation. our disunity is an effect of a colonial power deciding on its own to draw our territorial borders for us, and call those mesh of islands as Filipinas. world war 2 wasn’t abt defending our nation. it was abt helping the americans return. why, if the Japanese governed us well, and committed no atrocities, i don’t think we’d have MacArthur “liberating” us.
in the case of a civil war, all of us would be confronted with the question of where we want our destinies to go. it would be a fight between who gets the right to build the nation based on what they see is fit.
civil war is diff from war agst a foreign power. it’s an internal struggle. and much like a conflict of the conscience, the nation would emerge whole – if the good side won.
deVilsadVc8 on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 4:08 am
rego, picture this. an enormous garbage dump at the front of your brgy’s market. this is the accepted dumping ground of your brgy. everyone knows its bad for everyone’s health. yet bec it’s a long-time practice, no one bothers to challenge it bec it’s too “bothersome.” residents assign blame and responsibility altogether to brgy officials. and appease their conscience by rationalizing that everyone is doing it anyway, and besides, if only a sensible brgy official would appear and “clean up this mess” for your brgy.
then comes one man who starts proper waste disposal on his own. starts recycling, composting. people continue to dump their garbage at the marketplace anyway. at times, this man almost gave up with his advocacy, and yet he held firm with his belief. a neighbor noticed what he was doing and found it to be good. this neighbor soon imitated this man. but bec people continued to throw garbage at the market front, this neighbor soon fell back into his old ways. others also noticed what the man was doing and copied him as well. but as with the neighbor, some went back to their old ways of dumping trash at the market. but a few others persevered, just like the man. in time, this group reach a critical mass to start their own cleanliness drive. and then, the whole brgy just followed.
you see how staying steadfast is impt and how turning cynical is bad? all persons have the capacity to do good. but it is in the steadfast belief that others would come around to your pov that in starting change within urself, you inevitably change society if you jz stay patient and wait for everyone to come around to your thinking.
cvj on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 4:56 am
Devils, i don’t know what to you qualifies as a Society, but even before World War 2, Filipinos fought and died for the idea of an independent Philippine nation in the revolutions against Spain and the United States. Maybe an accommodation with Japan would have been reached if Macarthur did not return, but even in that hypothetical scenario, the ones who would have made such an accommodation would be Filipinos who are members of Philippine Society. After all, as recounted by Mabini, the same sort of compromise took place when it was clear that the Americans cannot be ejected by force.
You’re right to point out that “In the case of civil war, all of us will be confronted with the question of where we want our destinies to go“. Unfortunately, in case of civil war, more likely than not, that question would be settled by force and not by reason so that would not be an improvement from the current state of affairs. Whether or not the nation will emerge whole or permanently divided is something no one can guarantee as the outcome depends on too many variables. Once such a war gets going, it would also be simplistic to label one side ‘good’ and the other ‘bad’. When the savagery starts, there will be murderers and rapists on both sides so it may turn out that there won’t be any good side. “Culling the apathetic” is a war crime so whoever does that cannot be considered to belong to the ‘good side’. In the end, after all the lives lost, the promise of a nation that emerges whole can turn out to be as empty as those made by the politicians today. I don’t think you can guarantee otherwise.
Carlos H. Lopez on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 5:56 am
Agustine:
I still think it was C-4 bomb strategically located over the basement where there was diesel. As I know diesel is not combustible at present atmospheric pressures. It was even used in submarines because of its relative safe characterictics. It won’t even explode in the presence of fire, it’s got to be under pressure.
So how does diesel explode. Simply by putting it in a chamber under pressure and applying heat. That’s how a diesel engine works. My take is that the C-4 blast provided the pressure, hence , caused the diesel to explode causing a secondary explosion in the basement.
If the basement is considered as ground zero, which I think was not, then indeed no traces of RDX would be found.
I know these all from common sense. Let’s hope our investigators have the same common sense.
nash on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 6:14 am
Somehow, I’d rather that there was no C4 and this was a gas explosion accident.
Bencard on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 6:27 am
“…is it what Bencard wants, apathy?” shaman of m.
“I don’t think Bencard wants apathy. I believe just like you and me, he also wants a better Philippines.” rego.
thanks, rego. you know what really scares me? these people who who would automatically judge you negatively the moment you express something that does not conform to their way of thinking. can you imagine should these people ever come to power, or be so close to people in power? what would they do to people who would oppose their views? would they tolerate dissent, let alone insults, abuse, verbal assaults? would they ever be like the president they hate whom they can ridicule, falsely accuse of anything and everything, disparage, demean,defame, humiliate, and belittle every step of the way, and get away with it with complete impunity?
i hear tordesillias and her bloggers are just like these people. do you ever wonder how these people would treat us if one of them (their idol(s), whoever he/they may be) somehow came into power?
JIW on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 6:33 am
Carlos H. Lopez,
agree with you that if it was indeed diesel or other combustible under pressure that caused the explosion, it needs detonators before it will burn and the pressure of gases trying to get out of confinement will cause the explosion.
was there a fire in the vicinity of the diesel storage to cause the confined diesel burning? Even smokeless powder (one used for cartridges) would just burn rapidly if ignited loose, while black powder, or pyrodex are explosives that need only detonators or heat to explode.
the fumes that the investigators are reporting were the results of perhaps the secondary explosion reported by witnesses as a result of the first explosion. the bomb as you theorized was within the vicinity of the diesel storage. not too sure but when combustibles are stored for long will start emitting gases that easily caught fire or spark. I tried experimenting with smokeless powders (the type used for modern firearms) but they just burn rapidly in a loose condition, unlike black powder that will explode in any condition once ignited either by fire or primers.
Proud to be Tsinoy on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 7:33 am
Tawag ko sa mga tao sa baba…??? Komunista!
“thanks, rego. you know what really scares me? these people who who would automatically judge you negatively the moment you express something that does not conform to their way of thinking. can you imagine should these people ever come to power, or be so close to people in power? what would they do to people who would oppose their views? would they tolerate dissent, let alone insults, abuse, verbal assaults? would they ever be like the president they hate whom they can ridicule, falsely accuse of anything and everything, disparage, demean,defame, humiliate, and belittle every step of the way, and get away with it with complete impunity?”
ramrod on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 8:12 am
Good morning guys,
Don’t you ever sleep? This just in, Prospero Nograles said that the opposition does not want a successful impeachment because some presidentiables will lose their chances in 2010 should Noli de Castro be allowed to be president.
ramrod on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 8:16 am
tsinoy,
Only the those who seek to divide the Filipinos will label them communists, rightists, leftists, Islamists, etc. These categories were invented by people who see life through “HATE” lenses. Lets allow each other to have their own differences, we are living in a free country.
ramrod on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 8:25 am
Rego, about Trillanes, you don’t even know the guy, why don’t you and I go talk to him and reserve judgment till then?
cvj on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 8:25 am
Devils, i did some googling and it looks like the Hutu and Tutsi were not even separate ethnic groups:
http://www.india-forum.com/articles/153/1/The-AIT-:-More-than-meets-the-eye/print/153
According to the link, the categories were originally contrived by the Christian Missionaries. If true, this parallels the segregation between Tsinoys and Pinoys which started during the Spanish period.
ramrod on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 8:31 am
“thanks, rego. you know what really scares me? these people who who would automatically judge you negatively the moment you express something that does not conform to their way of thinking.” – bencard
Sometimes the reactions of people around you is just a reflection of your reaction to them, try to be subtle.
Carlos H. Lopez on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 8:37 am
Ramrod:
Same reason why they did not want FPJ to win. I remember hearing while having lunch or dinner with the “Rich” the phrase that FPJ must not win “by hook or crook” because he doesn’t know a thing. In deference to my host, I would just say to myself that it is bad to pass judgement on a person because of his/her educational attainment.
Now, see what’s happened. It seems that GMA had indeed have to win by “crook”. Now, look at the consequence. Nagka-bestohan na. And look at all the favors she has to contend with, the lies , the bribes, etc.
I hope that this teaches the “Rich” a lesson. I am a Catholic. I do not understand the greed of the “Rich”. I know some of them and they leave in big houses that are not HOmes. I too know simple people who live in small houses, some apartments, but I would call them Homes.
I see all these Congressmen riding in their BIG Cars going in Malacanang and without conscience accept 500K with a blink of guilt and we have this simple living priest being the only one to divulge it.
“it is harder of a rich man to enter the Kingdom of God than for a Camel to enter the eye of a needle”
Augustine on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 8:39 am
Carlos H Lopez,
Based on your theory, It was not an accident. There was still C-4 then, and somebody put it there to trigger diesel explosion.
If this is the case, then it would be “easier” to track down the culprit, since i believe that only few people could have access to the underground room.
And again, your theory still suggests that it was not an accident.
Police should give explanation about the RDX they found there. It was announced publicly that they found RDX, and even the meeting of national security council confirmed it already.
qwert on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 8:41 am
“You mean to say its going to be a yearly “eggs on our faces†as our resident GMA defense attorney puts it? You of little faith, more prayers…” – ramrod
ram,
I am actually having more faith nowadays because we really need something we don’t expect as far as the resignation or impeachment of GMA is concerned.
cvj on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 8:49 am
I heard that among my middle class colleagues as well. That’s part of the elitist mindset which is unfortunately common among the Upper and Middle Classes. That’s why the sense of morality of many of those who participated in EDSA Dos went out the window when it came to the issue of FPJ.
ramrod on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 8:53 am
Augustine,
I don’t know how they plan to get out of this mess, but the fact is, water from the sprinkler systems have flooded the area hours after the explosion, and this is the rainy season, with an open ceiling any residue could be washed away already. Thats why I was so pissed off with all the foot dragging earlier.
ramrod on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 8:58 am
And some people react to our “speculations” preferring to wait for the “experts.” This is not the era where the common people like us do not understand what these experts are doing, gone are the days when we have to wait with gaping mouths and big wondering eyes for whatever our leaders feed us.
ramrod on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 9:01 am
Carlos H. Lopez,
I understand, I was part of the mob who wanted GMA by hook or by crook just to avoid having FPJ being president. Lesson learned from this, the ends do not justify the means.
Bencard on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 9:09 am
ramrod, i don’t think subtlety would work with these people (i don’t mean you). many of them are so simplistic you have to spell it out and still be misconstrued (probably, more deliberately rather than because of ignorance). i haven’t visited tordesillias blog but from what i hear, you can try your “subtlety” there (if you haven’t already done so) and let me know what happens.
at any rate, since you espouse the same beliefs and principles as they do vis a vis pgma, i think you’ll be easily recognized as one of their own. so, just for experimental purposes, you may pretend you are “pro arroyo” (you know what to do… or say).
Manila Bay Watch on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 9:10 am
I didn’t like FPJ and didn’t vote for him but boy did I have sympathy for him in abundance over what he was made to go through!
Remember when some archives official was found to have falsified his personal documents to make it look like he was not a Filipino?
ramrod on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 9:26 am
Bencard,
I tried to go to that blog last night but I got scared, reading the threads made me think of snarling, foaming at the mouth, enraged pack, ready to pounce on any moderate views and probably eat pro GMAs. Do they present the people’s sentiment more than this blog? I like the habitues of this blog, they are more retrospective and sensible. The reactions you don’t like are just ventilations, as it says in the bible “from overflows of the heart the mouth speaks.”
You’ve been here longer than I have, you know what I mean. Most especially now after the bombing, emotions will run high, allow everybody to let out their anger, indignation, fears, and doubts, we’re only human.
Augustine on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 9:27 am
ramrod,
It is either The PNP don’t know how to get out of this mess or they have no much experience to handle the investigation on a bombing scene or they are under pressure.
I got impression that they are hiding something now, especially when we read today’s headline.
This one is taken from Inquirer:
“An investigator, who requested anonymity because he is not authorized to talk to reporters, told the Inquirer that initial tests done by bomb experts from the United States revealed no traces of RDX or any other explosive material……..The American experts, the source said, tested six samples from different locations at least three times. “There were samples taken from 500 meters from the blast site and also at the seat or source of the blasts, in this case the hole that was caused.—
Would you believe that? Who collect the samples? 500 meters from the scene? Foreign experts are just observers…I don’t know if they are given access to ground zero, and conduct their own investigation.
Proud to be Tsinoy on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 9:33 am
For what it’s worth, this is a comment I read from another blogger in another site that basically summarizes what I am saying….bear in mind these are not my comments…
“please my dear fellow filipino, please we are a democratic country but we dont practice it, really sawang sawa nako at nakakasuka, ang mga politicians natin ang gulo gulo, a very chaotic country indeed, dahil sa mga govt officials especially ang mga politicians silipan ng silipan wala ng ginawa kong hindi manira ng kapwa, aber sino ang gusto nyong ipalit kay gloria sino si noli de casto tapos hindi rin kayo mananahimik patatalsikin din ninyo, we filipinos have no satisfaction. mayayabang akala very proud we have democracy but really we dont practice it the way it should be practiced, puro salita walang gawa, lalo na ang senators, talagang they are not important to us, pangulo lang talaga sila, parang pag aari na nila ang pilipinas, sila sila nag sisiraan, yang bombing nayan sa glorieta pina pa gulo naman ang bayan natin tayo din ang lubog na bayan pina pa lubog pa nang husto baka sa susunod mawala ng tuluyan sa mapa ang pinas, please i hope the powerful media will come to there senses, they control the country they are the most powerful entity in our country, kayang kaya nila ilubog ang sarili nilang bayan just for there ratings.”
ramrod on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 9:34 am
Augustine,
What happened to the investigator earlier who said that RDX traces were found at the site? Sacked?
How could mechanical explosion do this? If it was really diesel why wasn’t there any fire? Hmmmm…very strange indeed…
Proud to be Tsinoy on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 9:39 am
ramrod
I appreciate your comment. Problema kasi minsan, just because we moderates try to balance the arguments….some people tend to become too mired in their own “hate filled” lenses that it’s better to use the extreme labels just to wake people out of their stupor…as the saying goes, bato bato sa langit, ang tamaan huwag magalit…..hehe
rego on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 9:40 am
oh common ramrod. I just expressed my opinion on what trillanes said in the press and suggested on I BELIEVED is better thing to do to be of help.
If that is the case then we should all stop talking about Gloria becuase we dont really know her. We shoudl all go to her before we say anything about her in this forum.
ramrod on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 9:43 am
tsinoy,
I’m really glad a member of the chinese community is interested in politics this way, this is very rare. I have been with the chinese business community for years now (14 years) whether in the Philippines or Singapore. Basically they would rather focus on business and talk about politics casually. My take on their reaction to all this is “pare pareho lang sila.” Basically because GMA enjoyed their support before, but now its just a consensus of disgust. My advise to you if you own a business, don’t align yourself to any political person/party as politics changes hands very often. Be aware but distance yourself from any politician.
levi on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 9:50 am
Ermita flies off to the US to give a report (kuno) on extra judicial killings.
He has some priorities, huh?
Di kaya humihingi ng SOS kay papa George?
rego on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 9:50 am
Ramrod,
I share the same experience on Ellen’s Blog. I went there once and never want to go back again.
And worst is somebody is using the same name as mine in that blog. I wanted to say something about it but decided to just let it pass.
Im not really the type who blog hop. I just read articles that i feel is worth reading from the links provide by Manolo. And just post comments here. In the firt palce I dont really have that much time to blog hop and post commenst on evry blog that visited.
ramrod on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 9:52 am
rego,
Look at Trillanes’ situation, he’s already neutralized, knowing the culture of the military, if he wasn’t a senator, or anyone famous, considering his rank, he would have already had a convenient accident or suicide. I had a barracksmate who until now we cannot accept the suicide angle.
What I mean is, let him speak, if he wants “neutral” terms, let him have it, what are they afraid of? The NSC chief is saying he doesn’t want the politicians to take advantage of the whole thing, why not? Its not that the people are that gullible to believe everything the politicians are saying.
Let him have his day, let him talk, let him present his evidence (Oplan Greenbase) and we as the people will judge for ourselves. GMA has had all the time/opportunity she wanted…
ramrod on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 10:00 am
rego,
I know what you mean, I’m actually very busy the whole week myself, you know, people with sales targets. I remember the early years when I started, my boss was already ecstatic if I close 3-3.5M a month, now, would you believe it, 3B a year? So what I do is, in between meetings, telecons, while waiting for faxes, emails, I visit this blog, it takes my mind of the pressure. Its better than drinking beer at night or whisky. Hell, I have to admit it, its better than the massage (with a happy ending) at times. Does this mean I’m getting old?
rego on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 10:04 am
But ramrod what ever trillanes is in now is his own making.
I am not preventing him to talk. By all means he can do that. As a matter of fact I wanted him to talk more and even suggested to do it on a forum or body that he trusted so much.
I would like to point out too that Triallanes is already a public figure and that makes anything he do open to criticism by the public thaty he is addressing.
I know you are both PMAer but hey that doesn’t mean that we dont undertand his situtaion from afar.
ramrod on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 10:09 am
rego,
Forgive me if my biases show at times. Honestly, I will admit I have my doubts about him (and I’m not alone) because of his close relations with Erap. Did you ever wonder why he didn’t get much support even from his own kind?
I just prefer that we let him speak and get it over with, we can easily discern if he is tainted or not.
Shaman of Malilipot on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 10:10 am
Right on, Willy! I guess, the right thing to do in these kinds of situation is just to accept the feelings of those who grieve as they are and emphatize with them without further comments.
Proud to be Tsinoy on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 10:10 am
Hi Ramrod
I have always had a keen interest in the politics of this country and how it affects business but I never ever aligned myself with anybody because of all the complications attach to it. (Some people may say that’s typical of us but who cares…) And some of thse politicians are actually good family friends….
I was born and grew up in the Philippines and I live and breathe Filipino (albeit of chinese descent). I am very sad at what is being done by powerful people in our country, be they politicians, crooked businessmen and bureaucracy and brazen criminals. The country is almost down to its knees because of all the things that are going on lately. Wala nang katapusan.
That’s really my opinion. Hindi na natapos. Sad to say, my take of this is that all politicians wants to be in power (with the exception maybe of Mrs. Aquino) for one thing and one thing alone….MONEY. So whoever wants to bring the President down (not that I admire her) is just after MONEY also. Lahat ng nakausap kong politika, money angle lagi ang pinag uusapan. Of course, I keep quiet because it’s their word against mine. Who am I but a small businessman. I just don’t join anymore in the games they play. Ibang liga sila. I am sure you having worked with the Chinese business community that you know who these big league guys are….Obvious naman everytime nagpapalit sila ng liderato, it’s because they put the guy who’s close to the current sitting President, di ba?
I care about this country a lot. I do some business between HK and the Philippines and it’s such a stark difference. The work ethic in HK is amazing compared to the Philippines and politics here, in fact, is sort of like a fly in the ointment of the average Hongkonger. SOmething they have to deal with come tax time or when they have a public issue they need to deal with. I wish it was the same in our country but NOOOOO, they would rather keep on talking and coming up with all sorts of conspiracy theories (the quinteseential pinoy pastime, aside from gambling) instead of really trying to figure out how to move the country forward economically so that EVERYBODY benefits.
Democracy for me has it’s place. Our country is not ready for it. Our brand of democracy is patterned after an American model that has been tweaked and fixed to suit their culture. We just transplanted it to our shores lock, stock and barrel and the tweaks made were only for the politicians’ benefit.
If you really really think about it, we still have a very feudal setup in our country. In this respect, Jose Ma. Sison is right. We have not change the datu system over the last 500 years. And the result is this out of whack political system that we have that basically reinforces such patronage system with just an American veneer of democracy to beautify it’s name. And people then wonder why the president has to spread out the largesse???? Eh that IS the system in place. The Datu system where the Leader is paid homage as long as he’s able to bring the food to the table. Eh di ba ganun din hanggang barangay level?
How to fix this? A this point, it’s really a very hard problem to resolve. A revolution does not necessarily fix the problem and as we all know, the children of the reolution sometimes gets devoured in the process anyway. It’s really the Filipino psyche that needs changing. They all lack (and I say this in the collective lest some people in this forum jumps at me) a sense of nationalism that I see everywhere else. The hell with our country basta I can feed my family, as if the family does not have a stake in the betterment of the country they live in. There’s the rub really. We all love to be democratic yet we do not want to practice the responsibility that comes with democracy.
Mahab na sinabi ko…we could certainly go on and on talking about this. At the end of the day, I know everybody in this forum love our country. It’s how they perceive things should be resolve really that is the main difference. Int his regards, I salute everybody !
hvrds on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 10:12 am
http://www.tomdispatch.com/post/76140/mike_davis_on_the_history_of_the_car_bomb
http://www.tomdispatch.com/post/76824/mike_davis_return_to_sender_car_bombs_part_2_
For those who love the smell of napalm in the morning this would be a good time to revisit these links as they are good history of bombings and car bombs and the history of their use.
Al Qaeda today can thank the Jewish insurgency in earlier times and off course the CIA for this most portable and effective weapon of asymmetrical warfare.
In a country like the Philippines where private and public military and police forces are primarily mercenary in their functions. The line between private and public armed forces in the country is often times blurry. They are for the most part guns for hire.
rego on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 10:13 am
And ramrod. please dont get me wrong. I dont hate Triallanes. As a matter of fact I almost voted for him. H e is in my original very short list of 3 senators that I I woudl like to vote. And I posted that list here.
I think I like his being an idealist and a fresh blood in the senate.
ramrod on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 10:14 am
“We are a nation that is so dependent on gossips and speculations. We create our own ghosts. We terrorize ourselves.” – the cat
So stop terrorizing yourself. Calm down, lets look at this from a different perspective. You can speculate on your own if you like.
ramrod on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 10:29 am
qwert,
Have you contacted the world vision foundation already? My wife and I plan to talk to them by the end of the month. I need to ask them a few questions, its unbelievable that you can send a child to school with only so little.
rego on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 10:29 am
I just read your apology. after I posted my last comment . There is really no need for it.
But that act is very admirable. It rarely happen n this blog. BOW ako sa yo , sir!
rego on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 10:32 am
I forgot to adress that comment for you, Ramrod.
Shaman of Malilipot on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 10:37 am
“i haven’t visited tordesillias blog but from what i hear, you can try your “subtlety†there (if you haven’t already done so) and let me know what happens.” – Bencard
I’m hugely surprised that a lawyer who obviously is proud of his legal expertise should depend on hearsay. Why he cannot do it himself and experience the thing first-hand is quite beyond me.
qwert on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 10:48 am
ram,
yes, but due to the many questions I was raising about the system,they advise me to drop by their office, since I am planning to go to Manila after All Saints Day, I’m including World Vision in my itinerary.
qwert on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 11:04 am
Shaman,
Care to read another report I received?
First Malaysian in space returns to Earth
Agence France-Presse
Last updated 07:04am (Mla time) 10/22/2007
MOSCOW — Two Russian cosmonauts and the first Malaysian in space returned to Earth on Sunday in an unusually abrupt and off-target manner afterleaving the orbiting the International Space Station, Russian mission control said.
The Soyuz craft with Sheikh Muszaphar Shukor, who carried out experiments for Malaysia’s Genome Institute, and Russian Yuri Yurtshikin and Oleg Kotov touched down on the Kazakh steppe at 1043 GMT, it said.
On the other hand,President Vladimir Putin will visit Portugal on October 25–26. Mr. Putin will conclude his visit by taking part in the Russia-European Union summit in the Portuguese city of Mafra.
“In other related developments, Mr. Putin will pay Philippine President Gloria Arroyo a visit on his way back to Russia from Portugal and would offer his help to ease the political tension prevailing in that southeast asian nation.
Mr.Putin deemed the mission of the two Russian cosmonauts and the first Malaysian in space a success and a good start to strengthen the relation of Russia with the ASEAN, so he would like to offer Mrs. Arroyo the honor to be the first Filipino and head of state in space
and the ones in a lifetime experience of staying in the International Space Station for three years. The Soyuz craft will be leaving forty days before Christmas and will be back in June, 2010.”
ramrod on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 11:11 am
qwert,
You’re kidding right?
Bencard on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 11:11 am
shaman, to be frank about it, i think you belong there much more than i. you would be like fish in the water. hearsay? obviously you don’t know what it means. why don’t you first consult with your lawyer before using terms you know nothin about?
qwert on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 11:14 am
ram,
the bold font was just me kidding…
qwert on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 11:21 am
” the ones in a lifetime”, the misspelled word was deliberate lest it be taken seriously by others
one timer on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 11:35 am
“hearsay? obviously you don’t know what it means. why don’t you first consult with your lawyer before using terms you know nothin about?”
Next to Politicians, the least trusted group of individuals are lawyers, as a group. So many accused now represent themselves instead of spending a dime for a lawyer that seems to not know much about law anyways. of course if it’s on public purse, why not? let them do the talking, one side will always lose anyways…
hvrds on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 11:38 am
Civil society and civilized society. In all of Asia the actual existence of the institutions of civil society are a byproduct of Western colonization.
The idea of civil society which is the underpinning of constitutional republicanism does not exist in China and throughout most of Asia. With the exception of India and the Philippines they are alien concepts in Asia.
In the Philippines though the term civil society is most often misconstrued. The idea is still in its infancy. What you have in the country are primarily civic groups masquerading as civil society groups.
The most potent form of civil society groups are representatives of different sectoral groups and the more successful are groups of small businessman, professionals and labor unions. They serve as counterweight to big business and government.
In weaker underdeveloped states the religious groups are combined with big business (landlords, traders and bankers) and government.
Unfortunately for the Philippines that so called middle force that should make up the force behind civil society is still at the margins and yet to be created.
The bulk of the population are still peasants and migratory peasant labor.
China’s rapid economic growth will have to give way to the emergence of a strong civil society as they are slowly creating the force that will become the nemesis of authoritarian government. The white/blue collar labor force and professional class.
The government of China is governed by a centralized democratic system. The central committee decides and no one knows how many men or women comprise that group.
That form of cellular structure gives no room for oversight. The authority is devolved to the different provinces but still operates along those lines.
For a country that was steeped in the oldest form of authoritarian governance it is not a break from their cultural history. A central committee rules instead of an emperor.
The Philippines is still generations away from that state of affairs for the emergence of civil society.
A perfect example of that state of affairs is the ongoing debate on pro-GMA and anti-GMA. It actually benefits Big Mike and GMA that the debate is maintained on the basis of personalties. Abstract concepts like institutions, rule of law and the social contract are results of empirical history. The country must have to have experienced it. It is born out actual struggles. That is why society organizes itself in a nation state after common historical experiences of struggle.
That is why the military often times takes over weak states because they are most the the sector that is asked to shed blood. In battle the concepts of God and country are lost. It becomes survival and helping your side survive. Man’s most noble endeavor giving up ones life for his brothers in battle.
It was most notable that during the battle of Hue where the U.S. Marines were engaged in battle vs the Viet Cong and NVA regulars the U.S. military finally realized that they were fighting men defending their country and they were the invaders. The defenders of Hue stood their ground and fought back even when they knew they had no escape. After that battle the Marines started calling the Viet Cong Mr. Charlie instead of the word Charlie.
Vietnam will almost assuredly develop faster than the Philippines.
qwert on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 11:48 am
Bulacan Gov. Joselito Mendoza on Monday bared that an official of the Department of the Interior and Local Government was present when a female staff member of Malacañang gave out cash gifts after a governors’ league meeting with President Arroyo on October 11.
Mendoza identified the official as DILG Undersecretary Austere Panadero. He said Panadero was present when a female staff member gave him two paper bags, each containing P500,000. Mendoza said he also got P500,000 intended for Pampanga Gov. Ed Panlilio from the same woman.
“Undersecretary Panadero was there. I think he knew where the money came from,” he added.- abs-cbnnews as of 11:19 a.m.
ramrod on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 11:55 am
hrvds,
If we look at it that way, Vietnam will develop faster than the Philippines, and in some ways, it has. But believe me, the Philippines is in a better position (better than Vietnam) still to make bigger strides in development and in economy. Speaking from the viewpoint of our industry, the Philippines is second only to Singapore in SEA, I should know, I head the Philippine team. Unfortunately, I have to agree with you that we are dragging our feet, or weighed down (like lead weights) by some socio-political and socio-economic factors its so frustrating. Here we are in the business sector yelling charge! we charge and then realize we’re alone, the rest are busy bickering, backbiting, and fighting each other.
JIW on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 11:56 am
gwert,
wanna bet, next articles in the papers would be denials from these personalities and would be contradicted by another statement that they didn’t know where the money came from if there were money distributed..so predictable that if you are a newspaper writer you can prepare your draft tonight for tomorrows press releases…
ramrod on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 12:02 pm
jiw, qwert,
As I said earlier, they’re dealing in cold cash, no signed vouchers, no acknowledgment of receipt, untraceable, impossible to build a case based on “hearsay.” I believe they had their lawyers look into the viability of this type of disbursement to ensure plausible deniability.
Our next hope/chance is our beloved opposition, will they lay down this stupid habit of outdoing each other for the Presidency and behave like a true opposition?
JIW on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 12:11 pm
ramrod, if these guys get their advise from their lawyers, then it is by knowingly giving their advice that lawyers are complicit in all of these? I am in the belief all along that lawyers are not supposed to do these “type of things”. But again everyone has a price these days…
Proud to be Tsinoy on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 12:12 pm
This is exactly also the point I am trying to get at except that I am not as articulate /succinct as ramrod. We should look at things from a perspective of the rule of law and not keep talking about personalities. Until we get rid of ALL of them politicians, we will never get out of the hole we’re in. Kasi nga, ayaw tanggapin ng iba rito na pare-pareho lang sila.
Proud to be Tsinoy on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 12:16 pm
at least Sen. Lacson has a more sober view of the situation unlike some knee jerk politician who loves to shoot from the hip without any solid evidence (Sen Pimentel for example)
http://www.gmanews.tv/story/65398/Fuel-vapor-not-bomb-caused-Glorietta-blast—Lacson
vic on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 12:30 pm
ramrod, agree with you that is very hard to prosecute a case based on heresay. but we had a case here before where a salesman was alleged to have given a city councillor, who was also a budget chief $25 thous as a “gift” in cold cash handed in underground parking lot. the police can not prove it, but the public inquiry (blameless type) leave no doubt in its reports that such exhanged took place and that recommended to ablolish lobying with politicians for contracts. the councillor and all involved parties? disgraced and all their political and civil careers are now lost forever…
qwert on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 12:33 pm
JIW,
Of course they will deny it, but they better be careful not to overdo it to the point that Mendoza will be accused of lying. Imagine, GMA against the De Venecias and the Mendozas…
ramrod on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 12:33 pm
jiw,
I believe lawyers are like soldiers in a way. Depending on what side they’re on, they will do whatever is necessary to win. The difference is, soldiers have to go through battle indoctrination to learn how to “kill” without being traumatized themselves and lawyers get paid a whole lot more, the guiltier, the higher the stakes.
ramrod on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 12:41 pm
“the councillor and all involved parties? disgraced and all their political and civil careers are now lost forever…” – vic
I pray that our civil servants eventually evolve to that point. As it is, they are still in the “cat and mouse” phase, as long as they don’t get caught, tuloy and ligaya, and even when they are caught “pakapalan na lang.” Have you ever heard of a government official resign because of complicity to graft and corruption? Even our own governmemt’s audit or whoever it is supposed to catch them is helpless(?), if you notice, we have to rely on reality TV shows like “Bitag” to catch these people on TV. And some people wonder why we seem to listen more to the media?
vic on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 12:41 pm
To see that terrorism is a world-wide concern, clik my handle and look at how our governments and its agencies are doing their utmost best and putting more resources to safeguard the safety of the Public. no disagreement among the politicians. altogether for the city and country…
qwert on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 12:49 pm
“As I said earlier, they’re dealing in cold cash, no signed vouchers, no acknowledgment of receipt, untraceable, impossible to build a case based on “hearsay.—- ramrod
ram,
I’m not that optimistic about building a case against anyone. What I am closely watching is the possible falling out of the Mendozas from GMA. This Mendoza angle is new, what is the son of the DOTC secretary up to? Why is he fanning the flames of this issue? The moment an ally name names, he is up to something.
ramrod on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 12:51 pm
vic,
If our rality TV shows catching crime red handed is working albeit limited scope, cameras used in a wider scale such as this is a big difference indeed. Is there a company offering this system to the government, LRT, MRT, already? If not, lets meet up with Abalos to help us?
ramrod on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 12:56 pm
qwert,
If you ever played lawn tennis, table tennis, or badminton, you’ll see that all the opposition needs to do is be consistent, don’t make mistakes, let the opponent make mistakes and lose points. The administration is imploding because of in-fighting, if no one can control this, we’ll see that they will do the job for us.
But then again, the ambitious opposition Presidentiables will scramble and push and shove each other, fall on top of each other, what a mess!
cvj on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 12:57 pm
PTBT, i don’t think it’s possible to get rid of politicians as a category under any system. I do understand though why you want to get rid of politicians who extort money from your business. i also take your point that perhaps the major reason why politicians need to extort money is because they need to fund their constituencies. I suppose you would also recognize the corrupting influence of certain businessmen.
The corruption of politicians is embedded in the system and is fed by other sectors like the rural/urban poor, the business community, the military and even the Church. To get rid of mosquitos, you have to drain the swamp that allows them to breed.
The military should be allowed to police their ranks of corrupt Generals. That was/is the Magdalos and the Camp Capinpin Detainees advocacy.
The business community should do their part by policing their ranks of cronies and rent-seekers. These people know who they are.
For its part, leaders of the rural & urban poor should also ensure that any assistance comes only from official channels.
The Church can help by getting over its overly stringent morality and recognizing that gambling is a fact of life. Just as the Prohibition in the United States produced gangsters Al Capone, their moralistic stance against jueteng is what produces gambling lords.
The politicians themselves can do their part by voluntarily tying their hands. For example, if the legislators get rid of pork barrel, then they can give the reason that they have no money to give out. Also, the lawmakers can make a law prohibiting all public officials from becoming Ninongs and Ninangs.
Finally, we citizens should be realistic and realize that we only get the public servants we pay for. The best investment in our political future would be a drastic increase in the salaries of our public officials. That’s one thing we should imitate from Singapore. The Senators, Congressmen, Mayors and Governors should be earning as much as top executives of local firms.
The above may be less expedient than mass culling of politicians, but i think a systems approach would help ensure that good politicians will eventually outnumber the bad.
Equalizer on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 1:01 pm
Im no big fan of gma,but i hope she last till the end of her “term” in 2010 and elections are conducted.I don’t want this country to be a banana republic.
BUT,if she decides to prolong her tenure beyond 2010 ,we should all do to whatever it takes to get her out…
qwert on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 1:05 pm
ram,
…you mean “unforced errors”, I wonder who is serving…
Shaman of Malilipot on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 1:10 pm
All right, Bencard, perhaps not hearsay. Let’s just say you’d rather depend on the say-so, or word of mouth, of another rather than on personal knowledge.
ramrod on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 1:10 pm
cvj,
I agree. Case in point, if we get stopped in the street by MMDA or traffic police, we’d rather shell out 100-500Php for expediency. One time I heard Bayani Fernando lament that he cannot control his people because we, motorists, are the ones perpetuating the cycle. Because I get stopped an average of 3 times per month (before), I decided not to give money and allow myself to get ticketed and just claim my license at the city hall (Manila). When I arrived there, the line was very long, and seemed very, very slow. Somebody approached me and said if I pay him 500Php I will get my license in 30 minutes, I paid, and sure enough it was given to me in 30 mins.
For a permanent solution to my problem, I went ot Crame, looked for a former classmate and asked for a special ID (Internal Affairs, people that catch erring cops), so now when they see my ID they don’t bother me, no coding, even if I go through a red light or swerve, short of running over somebody.
We can’t point our fingers solely at the politicians or to erring police, we are oftentimes guilty of bribery and corruption ourselves (me included). Thanks for pointing that out, cvj, I would have not thought about it.
ramrod on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 1:15 pm
shaman,
I think bencard is just like us – human, sometimes he dabbles in tsismis. Admit it bencard, its okay to be normal! So what happened to this expose about Piolo and Sam Milby by Lolit Solis?
ramrod on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 1:37 pm
mbw
The lawyer who did this was found dead a few weeks ago apparently from suicide(an altogether very familiar scenario). Talk about getting rid of loose ends.
vic on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 1:41 pm
ramrod, i was driving in edsa during one of my visits and made an illegal left turn somewhere in Q.C. the traffic officer upon seeing my driver’s license coferred with a cop a little distance away and asked for some amount so he would not take my license away. I asked him if he will just give me a ticket and I’ll be on my way,but instead took my license and told me where to “redeem” it. I left it as his souveiner and told a license clerk of what happened when I got back and get my replacement license right there and then..
cvj on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 1:41 pm
Ramrod, come to think of it, i suppose that’s also the point of books like “12 Little Things Every Filipino Can Do to Help Our Country†which i criticized too harshly above (at October 21st, 2007, 2:20 pm).
BTW, i’m curious to know, does a C4 detonation give off the smell of gunpowder? As Manolo recounted the other day, the people near the vicinity reported that it smelled like it was New Year.
qwert on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 1:41 pm
“wanna bet, next articles in the papers would be denials from these personalities and would be contradicted by another statement that they didn’t know where the money came from if there were money distributed..so predictable that if you are a newspaper writer you can prepare your draft tonight for tomorrows press releases…”-JIW
JIW,
They were faster that you thought, just barely two hours.
DILG exec: I didn’t know about cash gifts
Interior and Local Government Undersecretary Austere Panadero admitted Monday that he was present when paper bags were handed out in Malacañang last October 11 but denied any knowledge that the bags contained at least a million pesos in cash.
Panadero corroborated the statement of Bulacan Gov. Joselito Mendoza that the governor received two paper bags after a governors’ meeting with President Arroyo on October 11.
“I noticed somebody handing it to him. At that time, we really don’t know what’s inside [the paper bag],” Panadero said in an interview over ABS-CBN News Channel.
Panadero said he was talking to Undersecretary Rey Roquero, national executive director of Lakas party, when Mendoza entered the room. He said he talked to Mendoza for several minutes before the governor received the paper bags. “I don’t know [anything] about those paper bags. Just like him (Mendoza), when I went inside the room… I was a only a few steps ahead of him,” he added.
He said other junior staff members were present at the time.
When asked who could have ordered the staff to hand Mendoza the money, Panadero said it could have been Roquero or someone else.- abs-cbnnews (as of 1:03 p.m.)
JIW on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 1:57 pm
gwert, just like i suspected, but I expect further that these guys (too many of them)will say that they think it was some “fruit cakes” inside the bags, the most unappreciated Christmans Gifts, but they did better than I thought…
Shaman of Malilipot on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 1:59 pm
Oh yes, qwert, Austere Panadero, the guy who supplied the pan-de-sal that went with the omelette.
Mon Dieu! (French for the benefit of MBW and Ramrod) P500,000 per Governor and they were being “austere” pa lang about it?
inodoro ni emilie on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 2:01 pm
“Because I get stopped an average of 3 times per month (before), I decided not to give money and allow myself to get ticketed and just claim my license at the city hall (Manila). When I arrived there, the line was very long, and seemed very, very slow. Somebody approached me and said if I pay him 500Php I will get my license in 30 minutes, I paid, and sure enough it was given to me in 30 mins.”
next time, document these extortion practices using your mobile video capability. then post them in youtube while calling the attention of the authorities. this is where the concept of reality tv comes handy. wish the networks will channel their ratings wars towards scooping all the anomalous deals by tugging and documenting the lives of our public officials 24/7. a basic in social psychology: people always put their best behavior when watched.
qwert on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 2:07 pm
Shaman,
I hope he’s not a “French Baker”…
vic on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 2:10 pm
cjv, maybe ramrod can give you the definitive answer on the above question, but I believe it does. RDX in its pure form is unstable and need to be mixed with other components to stabilize it. It is the highest yield of all explosive, although black powder is still in use in most cannons and fireworks, the same components mixed into RDX will emit the same smell as any gunpowder. I’ve been around with all kinds of explosive powders, smokeless, pyrodex and black powder and they all have common smell. And C-4 is also an explosive, albeit of higher yield..
vic on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 2:12 pm
I meant all powder except C-4 as it is only for military and industrial use, not available for individual civilians.
Equalizer on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 2:15 pm
ramrod:just curious ,why is the philippines not included in your office world map?no office here?
Equalizer on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 2:27 pm
Interior and Local Government Undersecretary “Austere Panadero”
Austere:P500k per governor is not austere! that’s extravagant bribe!
Panadero:that’s a lot of dough!at least 80 governors!including Grace Padaca and Ate Vi!
ay_naku on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 2:51 pm
O diba pati ikaw gumagawa ng chismis at speculation? Ano yun, pag ikaw ang gumagawa ang tawag ay “looking at other angles” pero pag iba (especially people who hold different views) ang tawag na bigla ay “gossip and speculation.” Ay naku.
Manila Bay Watch on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 2:51 pm
Vic,
Although commercialized on line, the site I found says that C4 plastic explosive is “Very strictly controlled. Explosives authorisation and End User Certificate required…â€
The on line blurb also says:
CA high quality, very high velocity military plastic explosive.
Our C4 is supplied in bulk drums, in a slightly powdery form. Upon manipulation the material immediately consolidates into a rubbery fully plasticised mass which may be kneaded and pressed into any shape. The material has excellent mechanical and adhesive properties, and may be stretched into long strands without breakage.
In its original powdery form the explosive may be poured into charge containers, then pressed into intimate contact with the liner.
Substantial price discounts are available on full shipping containers (16 tonnes plus). Please enquire.
UN No. 0084 – HazCat 1.1D
Packaging: 25kg bulk drums
Trade price: £15/kg ex-works UK
Stock level: Small stock held. Large quantities (500kg plus) available to order, delivery approximately 90 days.
Control Status: Very strictly controlled. Explosives authorisation and End User Certificate required
Specification
MilSpec: MIL-C-45010A
UK HSE Serial number: 32-A-68450
RDX content: 91 ± 1%
Polyisobutylene plasticiser: 9 ± 1%
Moisture: 0.1% max
Velocity of Detonation: 8092 ± 26 m/s
Density: 1.63 g/cm3
Colour: Nominally white
TNT equivalence: 118%
Chemical marking for detection: Marked
Shelf life: At least 10 years under good conditions
http://www.ribbands.co.uk/prdpages/C4.htm
Manila Bay Watch on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 2:54 pm
also, Vic, I read somewhere that the investigators were saying they found RDX residues? Well, have been reading about plastic explosives (geez, kinda scary thest things are — I’d rather handle a missile than these thinggies…) on the net and here’s what a Wiki blurb said:
“C-4 is made by combining RDX slurry with binder dissolved in a solvent. The solvent is then evaporated away and the mixture is dried and filtered. The final material is an off-white solid with a feel similar to modeling clay.â€
ay_naku on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 2:56 pm
Yep, I agree.
Equalizer on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 3:09 pm
ONE DAY THEY CAME
One day they came and they took the Communists
And I said nothing because I was not a Communist
Then one day they came and they took the student activists
And I said nothing because my son was not a student activist
One day they came and they took Jonas Burgos
And I said nothing because he was not part of my family
One day they bombed Ayala mall
And I said nothing because no one from my family got hurt
Then one day they came and they took me
And I could say nothing because I was as guilty as they were
For not speaking out and saying that all men have a right to freedom!
Walang Akong Pakialam(rough translation)
Noong kinuha nila ang mga Komunista
Wala akong pakialam,di’ naman ako Komunista, eh
Noong kinuha nila ang mga student activists
Wala din akong pakialam,di’ naman student activist ang anak ko,eh
Noong kinuha nila si Jonas Burgos
Wala rin akong pakialam,di ko naman kamaganak si Jonas!
Noong binomba nila ang Ayala Mall,
Wala rin akong pakialam,wala sa pamilya ko ang nasugatan naman,eh
Isang araw,noong kinuha nila ako
Wala akong masabe,kasi Ako rin ay may sala!
Dahil hindi ako nakialam at di ako nasabi
“Lahat at may karapatan na maging Malaya!â€
levi on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 3:14 pm
Another Usec of DILG (Corpuz) favors the possibility of an accident. He theorized that methane, coming from the septic tank of the building, may have been the culprit.
This is implausible because methane, being less dense than air, is volatile and highly flammable hence here would have been massive fire after the explosion.
Usec Corpuz’s boss is spin goblin extraordinaire.
ramrod on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 3:24 pm
“ramrod:just curious ,why is the philippines not included in your office world map?no office here?” – equalizer
You mean SE? I report to the Singapore office, but I have a virtual office based in Philamlife Tower, Paseo de Roxas.
Equalizer on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 3:25 pm
“Usec Corpuz’s boss is spin goblin extraordinaire.Levi
D’Puno of spin doctors also said that Governor Mendoza of Bulacan was going to be charged for bribery since he was the one who actually gave the money to Governor Panlilio of Pampanga!
Equalizer on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 3:26 pm
ramrod:SE BIG business,eh
ay_naku on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 3:28 pm
We’re already a banana republic. From wikipedia:
In modern usage the term [banana republic] has come to be used to describe a generally unstable or “backward” dictatorial regime, especially one where elections are often fraudulent and corruption is rife. By extension, the word is occasionally applied to governments where a strong leader hands out appointments and advantages to friends and supporters, without much consideration for the law.
That so aptly describes our current situation under the GMA administration, don’t you think?
But if you’re concerned about the the coup- and revolution-prone definition of banana republic, would you then support an impeachment or resignation? That would be a constitutional process.
ramrod on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 3:29 pm
“BTW, i’m curious to know, does a C4 detonation give off the smell of gunpowder? As Manolo recounted the other day, the people near the vicinity reported that it smelled like it was New Year.” – cvj
vic is right, the smoke is more or less like gun powder, unfortunately so does TNT (tri nitro toluene).
Its definitely not diesel explosion then, methane has a very familiar smell – poso negro.
Equalizer on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 3:31 pm
“Its definitely not diesel explosion then, methane has a very familiar smell – poso negro.”ramrod
Mr.Esperon: Call Malabanan to explain the new “foul smelling” story!
ramrod on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 3:33 pm
“ramrod:SE BIG business,eh” – equalizer
Yep. Its the biggest in the industry worlwide. I’m told that I’m the first Filipino colleague they have, thats why I do my best everytime – as after me, other Filipinos can come in also.
Equalizer on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 3:37 pm
“But if you’re concerned about the the coup- and revolution-prone definition of banana republic, would you then support an impeachment or resignation? That would be a constitutional process.ay naku!”
till 2010,the only scenarions to remove gloria:
1)impeachment:she holds the 189 congressmen “by their balls” via bribery.
2)resignation:Ay naku!that woman will hold on to her position at all costs!
3)Natural causes:mahirap, masamang damo!
Let’s just be Extra patient!Hhave a countdown till January 1,2010:
Customized counter
Time until Friday, January 1, 2010 (UTC time)
801 days
19240 hours
1154423 minutes
69265417 seconds
Equalizer on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 3:39 pm
“Yep. Its the biggest in the industry worlwide. I’m told that I’m the first Filipino colleague they have, thats why I do my best everytime – as after me, other Filipinos can come in also.”
Go back to work and earn your pay now! lol
Manila Bay Watch on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 3:42 pm
Ramrod,
Just read your post re: “The lawyer who did this was found dead a few weeks ago apparently from suicide(an altogether very familiar scenario). Talk about getting rid of loose ends.”
Is that so? Wow!
cvj on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 3:55 pm
Vic, Anna, Ramrod, thanks that was very informative! We’re all taking a crash course on explosives. BTW, DJB has some interesting entry on Deflagration in his blog.
Beancurd on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 3:56 pm
MLQ3, Can you please redirect the discussion to the bribery and back off scandals? I am having a hard time concentrating on the task at hand because I hear the long and loud laugh from Malacanang for having successfully hijacked the burning issues of the day. This is not of course to diminish the importance of demanding and giving justice to the victims of the Glorietta bombing. Thanks
ramrod on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 3:59 pm
cvj, how do I get to djb’s blog?
qwert on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 4:16 pm
ram,
go to links above, click it, then look for essentials, then Philippine Commentary
ronin on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 4:30 pm
ramrod: Just curious. If you were the guy who plants a bomb in a place like G2, how would you go about it? What explosive type will you choose? Why? Why would you choose that site? How would you evade security?
Also, is it also possible to plant a bomb and then control its detonation in such a way as to make it appear as an ‘accident’?
Thanks!
Shaman of Malilipot on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 4:34 pm
Ramrod, is C-4 the same as emulsion explosive?
ay_naku on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 4:41 pm
Hahaha! Down to the last second talaga.
We can still take pro-active steps while being patient at the same time. Sabi nga, “In a nation run by swine, all pigs are upward-mobile and the rest of us are fucked until we can put our acts together: Not necessarily to Win, but mainly to keep from Losing Completely” If we can get our act together, if we can express our collective disgust loudly and forcefully enough, then who knows? Anything can still happen.
Tsokolet on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 5:34 pm
“…Remember 2000 when a bomb explosion also happened in the same shopping mall. One angle could be business rivalry.” –The Cat
The Cat, I am one of those who don’t buy your theory. why they did it in the same shopping mall the second time (if indeed a business rivaly)? Kaduda duda naman yang timing na yan! At kung totoo, mukhang may koneksyon ata yang rival na yan sa military dahil sa C4.
goodah on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 5:42 pm
the recent tragedy gives the culprits of bribery time to concoct material evidence to cleanse their hands…
BrianB on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 5:43 pm
bomb threat forwarded msg.> MGANDANG GABI S INYONG LAHT ISA AKO NA MUSLIM TAGA LANAO GSTO KU PO MALMN NG LAHT PRA UMABOT 2 SA MNILA KTATPOS NOW LNG ANG PLAN NI SHEIK ANG UTAK S GLORYETA PLAN NLA PASBUGIN ANG ISA S TRAYNOMA SM MEGA 168 MRT UNION BANK QUIAPO RCBC HSBC AT MARMI PA WAG IPSA S KAKILALA NNYO NA MUSLIM BKA MLMN NLA N MAY NAGKALAT BE4 NOV 1 ANG PAGSABOG GAMIT VAN NA SSKYAN —
Got this in my YM
Tsokolet on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 5:50 pm
Brianb, baka galing yan kay Norberto G. hehehe
Jeg on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 6:01 pm
Now why would anybody send a message like that? Minsan talaga walang magawa ang mga tao. Sarap batukan.
BrianB on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 6:05 pm
Sorry I had to pass it to enough people. There’s a curse if I didn’t.
BrianB on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 6:06 pm
Sorry I had to pass it to enough people. There’s a curse if I didn’t.
Anyway how do you know if it’s G1, G2, G3 or G4?
Tsokolet on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 6:28 pm
BrianB, u might be cursed for doing so. U should verify the info with Norberto G baka kulang yang info na yan & he might have something to add
The Ca t on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 7:50 pm
Did you not get my point. Explore all angles.
Latest news is that it is not a bomb but rather a diesel induced explosion.
In the investigations most of the components of a C4 are missing. Only the RDX which also function as plasticicers for concrete materials such as pvc, tile floors, wires and cables, car undercoating,carpets, pool liners etc.
ramrod on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 7:55 pm
“Latest news is that it is not a bomb but rather a diesel induced explosion.” – the cat
The cat, its the other way around, diesel can be induced to explode, it has to be heated first. And you’re right in saying it would be sensible to look at other angles.
Migan on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 8:03 pm
It seems that the authorities are again giving hints that the whole G2 incident may have been purely accidental. A huge diesel gas tank, generators powered by it, and methane from the mall’s septic tank are now supposedly the key components suspected to have caused such a powerful explosion.
Perhaps that may have been possible, yes. BUT, what I find crazy about this whole thing is that SURELY, something that obvious would have been IMMEDIATELY EVIDENT the very first time the investigators studied the related structural, electrical, mechanical, and sanitary plans and documents of that particular portion of the mall. Why didn’t they mention those critical building elements as another possibility for causing such explosions in the first place? Better yet, why not mention them along with the LPG gas leaks? Surely one of the first things the authorities would have wanted to see were the architectural blueprints of the place before engaging in anything else.
Equalizer on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 8:22 pm
“Patience is long,long suffering!â€
801 days
19235 hours
1154139 minutes
Equalizer on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 8:28 pm
he latest episode could be called “The Malabanan Excavator (Pozo Negro) & Plumbing …excuse”
Bencard on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 8:54 pm
shaman & ramrod, you are both dead wrong. if i use your, rego’s and other people’s testimony based on all your personal experience at tordesillias blog, it is not hearsay when used in court to prove the fact of that blog’s intolerance of other people’s views. it is not tsismis, by any means, unless you, ramrod, and rego are tsismosos. then what you wrote above concerning your “personal experience” would be perjury if repeated under oath. if you were found lying, not only you may go to jail, your credibility as witness is impugned.
how’s that for a lesson in law, huh? shaman, didn’t i tell you before i would bill you the next time around. wait for it in the mail (lol).
tagabukid on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 8:56 pm
I also got a somewhat similar text message yesterday:
“Forwarded message from Crame: Wag kau punta sa global city market2 at makro bicutan. All Ayala corps r subjct 4 bombings. ocean liners hindi pumutok may bomba kanina intel info yan high alert kami.”
I did not forward the text, sayang ang piso. Post ko na lang dito kasi apparently, magkakaiba pala ang plano ng mga ‘terorista’
With due respect to ramrod, recent events will make it hard to convince most people that the phrase “military/police intelligence” is an oxymoron.
cvj on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 8:57 pm
There’s this show called ‘Mythbusters’ in one of the cable channels (either Discovery Channel or National Geographic i can’t remember). The two guys who host the show recreate scenarios described in various Urban Legends to see whether they are plausible or whether they can be categorized as a myth (and therefore ‘busted’). We need their help. Maybe they can be convinced to do an episode on this incident.
tagabukid on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 8:59 pm
i mean, convince na hindi oxymoron…
Goodah on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 9:00 pm
The military should dig more evidence to refute that it’s not C4, otherwise a bigger explosion and tension within their ranks may happen kapag mapatunayan na may connection sa kanilang institution yang pampasabog.
Let’s go back to the bribery issue.
Manila Bay Watch on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 9:03 pm
Chuck,
Heheh! Very very crash course indeed!
Manila Bay Watch on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 9:05 pm
Goodah,
Hang on a second, didn’t Esperon himself say that the blast was the handiwork of terrorists? So what’s with the accident angle now?
ramrod on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 9:09 pm
“Only the RDX which also function as plasticicers for concrete materials such as pvc, tile floors, wires and cables, car undercoating,carpets, pool liners etc.” – the cat
Interesting, RDX is very toxic, its worst than lead.
ramrod on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 9:12 pm
good evening everybody,
The plot thickens, now the news say there are 3 possibilities. If the intention was to confuse, it worked, attention was diverted from the bribery issue.
Goodah on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 9:13 pm
Manila Bay Watch,
Oo nga pala! But now he has to change his tune baka mag backfire. Dahil kung hindi ang Abu o RSM, sino?
“The police have also ruled the possibility of the Rajah Sulayman Movement’s involvement in the Makati City mall blast. The police’s Task Force Sanlahi, which was tasked to look into the possibility of terrorists’ involvement in the blast, said RSM is incapable of carrying such an attack because its 12 core members have been arrested.”–Abs-cbn online news
ramrod on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 9:14 pm
“Hang on a second, didn’t Esperon himself say that the blast was the handiwork of terrorists? So what’s with the accident angle now?” – mbw
It only goes to show that he’s as clueless as we are.(?)
Manila Bay Watch on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 9:20 pm
Thanks for that bit of news Goodah… and Ramrod says three possibilities and plot thickens – hope it (the plot) doesn’t explode in all our faces again becomes to cover another hot issue like the bribery issue.
At the rate all these events/issues, ZTE-NBN scandal, CyberEd, impeachment complaint aka innoculation, Glorietta mall blast, etc., are happening, one scandal after another is being burried by the next scandal, endless unsolved, unresolved issues plaguing the govt at the highest echelons of power are being waylaid.
cvj on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 9:22 pm
As per the Inquirer…
Can P&G or Unilever confirm this?
Manila Bay Watch on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 9:22 pm
Ramrod,
Esperon would have done very well to shut his mouth and behaved like a real military chief instead of fanning the flames. Complete nig nog that creep is!
Manila Bay Watch on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 9:26 pm
Ramrod,
Frankly, I thought we’d all behaved rather well depite our being clueless and under the circumstances unlike Esperon who was moo-ing like an old cow with his terrorist theories.
We didn’t all scream and say that the blast was the handiwork of terrorists, at least we ask questions.
But that uniformed nig-nog who should have been the epitome of military calm panicked!
Shaman of Malilipot on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 9:26 pm
Here’s what I said, Bencard, at 1:10pm:
“All right, Bencard, perhaps not hearsay. Let’s just say you’d rather depend on the say-so, or word of mouth, of another rather than on personal knowledge.”
Bakit ba sinusubo mo si Ramrod. Bakit hindi ikaw mismo ang pumunta doon, if you really want to know what it’s like? Akala ko ba strong advocate ka ng “evidence beyond reasonable doubt”. Akala ko ba lawyers are always after “personal knowledge”. What can be more personal than your very own first-hand knowledge?
Takot ka ba?
Equalizer on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 9:30 pm
MBW: Mr.Esperon reminds me of Fabian Ver in more ways than one.
-Canine loyalty to the President who appointed him
-No real concern for the ordinary soldier
-Acts more like Presidential bodyguard than a chief of Staff
-”foot in the mouth” disease
-Will one day go on exile(I bet)
Manila Bay Watch on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 9:33 pm
Chuck,
Just been to Dean’s blog. Even if Dean is a physicist, he has to have access to all the evidences, analyze them, etc. to be able to conclude with finality that the blast was induced by gas deflagradation. Difficult to do that by basing findings on newspaper bits and pieces.
Shaman of Malilipot on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 9:33 pm
“At the rate all these events/issues, ZTE-NBN scandal, CyberEd, impeachment complaint aka innoculation, Glorietta mall blast, etc., are happening, one scandal after another is being burried by the next scandal, endless unsolved, unresolved issues plaguing the govt at the highest echelons of power are being waylaid.”
MBW, somebody I know who is comfortably ensconced in Boston calls it good governance.
Manila Bay Watch on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 9:34 pm
Hi Equalizer,
I heard Fabian Ver was good to the ordinary soldier. If true then he was better than Esperon.
ramrod on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 9:36 pm
Government investigators are considering :
1. terrorist attack
2. industrial accident
3. ultra-rightist’s activity
as among the possibilities behind the blast. – GMANews.TV
If no. 1 is ruled out, no. 2 would mean the Ayala’s did not follow certain structural safeguards, if no. 3 – kawawa na naman si Trillanes.
We have no choice but to wait for the final results of the investigation. Meantime, I’ll call a friend of mine working for P&G and ask if they have RDX in their shampoo and toothpaste (I thought that was toxic?). I remember they used “carageenan” as binder?
Manila Bay Watch on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 9:37 pm
Shaman,
“MBW, somebody I know who is comfortably ensconced in Boston calls it good governance.”
Is that right? Sorry to say this but I think your friend must be awfully ignorant or being utterly foolish.
Manila Bay Watch on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 9:40 pm
Ramrod,
I think Cat is right that RDX is used in PVC (from what I read on line) — that’s why people who dabble in crude PVC (used in shipbuilding for instance) take extreme precautions to avoid inhaling the substance. Large amounts over time is definitely toxic.
Shaman of Malilipot on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 9:40 pm
MBW, I wonder what happened to the Dean’s knee-jerk theory that it was the handiwork of Muslim jihadists? So, now it’s gas (as in fart?) deflagradation. What’s next? Loose bowel conflagration?
ramrod on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 9:43 pm
shaman, mbw,
If you keep that up, baka magtampo yung friend natin and go to ellen’s blog and come back here days later totally converted into a snarling, foaming in the mouth, I-will-eat-GMA for breakfast bloggerilla. (lol)
Manila Bay Watch on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 9:45 pm
Shaman,
Re “Dean’s knee-jerk theory that it was the handiwork of Muslim jihadists? ”
I think he is allergic to Muslims but I may be wrong. But from what I just read, he certainly has changed his theory. Esperon still has to change his theory though from what I read.
Bencard on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 9:46 pm
i’m on watch mode
Manila Bay Watch on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 9:48 pm
“If you keep that up, baka magtampo yung friend natin and go to ellen’s blog and come back here days later totally converted into a snarling, foaming in the mouth, I-will-eat-GMA for breakfast bloggerilla. (lol)”
Hahaahahahahahahaha! (I’m laughing on my own here – my dog is panicking like Esperon!)
Manila Bay Watch on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 9:50 pm
Hi Bencard! How are you this morning?
ramrod on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 9:51 pm
Dean’s theory is based on the use of gas in the US for heating purposes, as it is piped into the houses or buildings. What type of gas is this? Is this highly volatile and flammable in its natural form? The element in the incident is diesel, this has to be heated first before it burns.
Anyway, I have to go guys. I might miss Marimar.
Shaman of Malilipot on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 9:52 pm
“Government investigators are considering :
1. terrorist attack
2. industrial accident
3. ultra-rightist’s activity”
What? No “business rivalry”? These government nig-nogs (to borrow MBW’s), they should explore all angles! Acute angles, obtuse angles, straight angles. I wonder if geometry is still taught in PMA.
By the way, MBW, what’s nig-nog in French?
Manila Bay Watch on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 9:55 pm
Heh! Shaman, nig-nog is “bougnole” in French or if you want “petit couillon” (pronounced phonetically ‘bunyol’ and ‘peti kuyon’)…
Heheh!
Bencard on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 9:55 pm
hi, mbw, i’m just fine, thank you. and you?
Manila Bay Watch on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 9:56 pm
Shaman, Manolo’s minesweeper is at work but trying again – nig-nog is “bougnole†in French or if you want “petit couillon†(pronounced phonetically ‘bunyol’ and ‘peti kuyon’ respectively)… heh.
Shaman of Malilipot on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 9:57 pm
Marhay na aga, Bencard. Happy watching, friend!
Manila Bay Watch on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 9:58 pm
Bencard, I’m always fine – thanks, particularly when it’s sunny and cold! Temperature here has gone wildly low but it’s so fabulously sunny so don’t mind 10 or 12°C.
Equalizer on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 9:58 pm
Can somebody tell me why there is proliferation of ex-generals in GMA cabinet(4 out of 24 cabinet members):
Executive Secretary:former General Ermita
Department of Public Works and Highways: former General Ebdane
Department of Transporation & Comunications: former General Mendoza
Deaprtment of Energy:former General Reyes
Manila Bay Watch on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 9:59 pm
Shamman, I think Manolo’s minesweeper doesn’t like French words but here it is again (trying for the third time to post translation for you.)
“Shaman, Manolo’s minesweeper is at work but trying again – nig-nog is “bougnole†in French or if you want “petit couillon†(pronounced phonetically ‘bunyol’ and ‘peti kuyon’ respectively)… heh.”
Manila Bay Watch on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 10:02 pm
Bencard, I’m always fine – thanks, particularly when it’s sunny and cold! Temperature here has gone wildly low but it’s so fabulously sunny so don’t mind 10 or 12°C.
(Shaman I’m going to clip my translation along with my reply to Bencard coz for the 4th time, Manolo’s minesweeper is blocking the French translation you asked so here’s another fly half try: nig-nog is ‘bougnole’ in French or if you want ‘petit couillon’ (pronounced phonetically ‘bunyol’ and ‘peti kuyon’ respectively) heheh!
Manila Bay Watch on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 10:03 pm
nig-nog is ‘bougnole’ or if you want ‘petit couillon’ (pronounced phonetically ‘bunyol’ and ‘peti kuyon’ respectively – 6th fly half try here Shaman, just couldn’t get past Manolo’s minesweeper!
Manila Bay Watch on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 10:04 pm
Hello, hello, Shaman testing, testing, — nig-nog is bougnole or if you want petit couillon (pronounced phonetically ‘bunyol’ and ‘peti kuyon’ respectively – 7th fly half try here Shaman, just couldn’t get past awaiting moderation minesweep.
Manila Bay Watch on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 10:06 pm
I give up Shaman – been trying to post translation but still awaiting moderation minesweep.
qwert on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 10:07 pm
I wonder what portfolio will be given to General Esperon.
Manila Bay Watch on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 10:08 pm
Ah! I see the minesweeper is allergic to foreign words – hahahahahahah! OK so will try to be a bit more clever than Manolo’s minesweeper and see whether NIG NOG’s translation can pass: B O U G N O L E (pronounce bunyol) or P E T I T C O U I L L O N (pronounced peti kuyon but bit nasal.)
Manila Bay Watch on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 10:13 pm
Qwert,
“I wonder what portfolio will be given to General Esperon.”
Maybe an ambassadorial post, away from the madding military in Manila, lest he gets wounded in action there?
But Esperon swears he is and will always be the guardian angel of Gloria and if he sticks to his ‘word’ then he might prefer a position in Malacanang. By the way, there is a you tube video hommage to the greatness of Esperon — no kidding! If you haven’t seen it, here it is:
http://www.manila-bay-watch.blogspot.com/2007/09/gen-hermogenes-esperons-delusions-of.html
Equalizer on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 10:14 pm
Qwert: Department of Excavator (Pozo Negro) & Plumbing Services
Manila Bay Watch on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 10:15 pm
Equalizer,
Isn’t the Malabanan services owned by former Sec Tom Alcantara?
Equalizer on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 10:18 pm
Ana: almost all “pozo negro” services have the malabanan name prefixed by the nickname of the famly member.they even have a family crest(guess what?).
It’s like Lapids for chicharon,Tamesis for eye care,etc.
And Pidals for…
Shaman of Malilipot on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 10:22 pm
Equalizer, I’ll tell you why. This Administration is being held aloft with bayonets.
qwert on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 10:23 pm
MBW,
An ambassadorial post is not worth the loyalty Esperon has given GMA, higher,higher…
Equalizer,
The Department of Excavator has already been given to Heherson Alvarez, didn’t you know?
Proud to be Tsinoy on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 10:25 pm
cvj
I agree with your analysis 100% this time. Except…how do we actually convince these people to take their hands out of the cookie jar?????
Shaman of Malilipot on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 10:26 pm
Merci beaucoup, MBW.
Manila Bay Watch on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 10:26 pm
Equalizer,
Re proliferation of generals (you’re forgetting the foreign postings pa like Gazmin, Wong, de Leon, Abu, etc): Actually there are more than 4 if you consider Presidential Advisers on Terrorism (Benjie Defensor), or Cimatu on OFW affairs, Senga is somewhere too plus a handful of Undersecretaries in various cabinets postings, DOTC and DND, etc. Even ex-CSAFP Boy Abadia is somewhere in her cabinet.
I don’t mind seeing generals in positions of responsibility in government. My reason is that most military officers who get to that level possess the education, the know-how, the organizational savvy, the analytical mind and the discipline to tackle the most difficult jobs in civilian posts.
In other words, they can do the task but what is suspect here is following the Hello Garci scandal, we witnessed an incredible proliferation of generals at all levels not to speak of having about 2 or 3 Chiefs of Staff in one year… for instance Benjie Defensor was chief of staff for less than 3 months! Then followed by a few others whose stint as CSAFP is really useless because of the incredibly short period of time spent on the post.
Nag hello pa lang sila sa various commands, good bye na kaagad. Ano yan, beauty contest?
Manila Bay Watch on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 10:27 pm
Equalizer, Ah ganoon ba? So Malabanan is a family name pala.
Equalizer on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 10:31 pm
QWERT
residential adviser on Extrajudicial Affairs and Election Involvement Process?
Manila Bay Watch on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 10:32 pm
Je vous en pris, Shaman!
Equalizer on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 10:34 pm
ANA
Oui! It has become a brand name.
Like Esperon for :
1)Extrajudicial affairs
2)Foot n mouth disease
3)Election Involvement process
Manila Bay Watch on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 10:35 pm
Equalizer,
I forgot — Espinoza, Gloria’s favourite general for example, who threatened to march and engage PSG in battle in Malacanan if Erap didn’t resign, was immediately posted to cash rich post in Taiwan with rank of ambassador. (Espinoza even bragged to his classmates that he who had never owned a check book now possessed several bank accounts.)
Manila Bay Watch on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 10:39 pm
Hahahahah! “they even have a family crest(guess what?).”
I dare not guess what Equalizer! Yuck!
Tsokolet on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 10:47 pm
A bit out of topic:
Got this Chikka text message today: [Patty] 10/22/07 10:10:56 PM let’s all go to MALACANANG with an empty paper bag to experience the latest MIRACLE..0ut of nowhere, your bag will be miraculously filled with CASH! Alelujiah!!
cvj on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 10:54 pm
PTBT, you mean the politicians? A few days back, i proposed to Ramrod that we should cut them off from the cash (and credit card) economy. Give the politicians a huge salary adjustment (to attract good talent) but every time they engage in a personal transaction, they should use a voucher (or electronic voucher). If you’re familiar with the ‘NETS’ system (used by the public) here in Singapore, that’s sort of the thing i have in mind for our politicos and their families.
In this way, the politician can validly tell his constituents that he has nothing to give them because he does not have the cash. With the above in place, i also suggested elsewhere that any ‘treat’ (whether lunch, dinner or golf) in which the politician receives something that he does not pay for (using his electronic voucher) would be considered a bribe.
Prior to entering politics, anyone who owns a business (and his/her family) should divest and put this in a blind trust (subject to audit) which cannot be retrieved until five years after the politician leaves public service.
The technology for the above is already available, it’s just a matter of arriving at a consensus to implement these measures.
qwert on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 10:54 pm
MBW,
MBW,
How can you forget the Admirable(Admiral) Tirso Danga ( ISAFP chief during the Hello Garci controversy) This one was so funny, it made Sen. Biazon scratch his head. When Danga retired , Sen. Biazon was so happy, because finally, he will not be covered by E.O. 464, so Danga was subpoenaed by the Senate Defense Committee. The day (2 days I think) before his senate appearance, he was appointed special assistant to the National Security Adviser … tapos ang boksing(E.O. 464 na naman), napailng na lang ng ulo si Biazon.
Equalizer on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 10:55 pm
Another question about Gloria’s cabinet members.What do these two cabinet members (DEPEd Jesli Lapuz and DND Gilbert Teodoro) have in common?
1)both from tarlac
2)ex congressmen
3)???
qwert on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 10:55 pm
sorry about the double entry
Equalizer on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 10:58 pm
MBW In addition to the family crest,they have a business slogan “in dirt there is money”.
What do you think is the slogan of the Pidals?
Manila Bay Watch on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 11:06 pm
Qwert, oo nga pala si Danga — he’s sick di ba? Wonder what pushed Danga to accept when he cannot do anything anyway if he’s very ill.
Di ang dami na nilang undersec or asst sec diyan sa NSA? Si Lt Gen Vic Mayo (whose wife is an Assumption friend of Gloria) is still there too but was also very ill last time I heard. Ano yang NSA, tapunan ng may mga sakit na generals?
Manila Bay Watch on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 11:07 pm
Equalizer, St Theresa de Avila’s halo?
Equalizer on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 11:13 pm
mbw:both nephews of the Boss
qwert on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 11:32 pm
cvj,
If I may add, let the three branches of government stick to their role. Congress should strictly confine itself to lawmaking, no more projects(pork barrel), let the executive branch handle it. Then divide the congressional districts into 6 or 10( can be more) districts (districts within a district).During elections, there will be ten congressmen per district but only one will be represented in the National Congress.The national representative of that district will be the “primus interpares” to be chosen by the nine. Any district representation vote in the national level must be concurred upon by the majority within that district. With this setup, a congressional candidate will not spend so much during election because he will be campaigning in a relatively small area. The congressman will not be that powerful because of a smaller constituency.
cvj,ramrod,
If you have additional inputs it is most welcomed, lets develop it further, if its not feasible then just forget about it.
Bencard on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 11:47 pm
shaman, if it was my personal knowledge, i would be a witness. then i could not be the lawyer without compromising my ethical standard and obligations. i think being an advocate and a witness on the same case is incompatible. i think even a judge cannot be a witness without recusing himself.
there you go, your bill is getting long (lol). marhay man na aga sa imo. dios mabalos.
qwert on Mon, 22nd Oct 2007 11:52 pm
cvj,ramrod,
In addition, with this setup the Speaker will not be that powerful, he will just basically take care of the salaries of the congressmen, wala ng palakasan.
It will be very hard to bribe a congressman, because the vote will depend on the majority vote of the said district in any issue including the impeachment.
Since there will be no more projects, any cash given to a congressman or district for that matter will always be construed as a bribe.
Shaman of Malilipot on Tue, 23rd Oct 2007 12:28 am
“What do you think is the slogan of the Pidals?”
Let me try: “Dirty money is beautiful”?
Shaman of Malilipot on Tue, 23rd Oct 2007 12:32 am
MBW, Danga accepted the government post just so he doesn’t have to appear before Senate investigations. EO 464.
cvj on Tue, 23rd Oct 2007 1:25 am
qwert, i agree completely that the 3 branches should stick to their respective roles. i’m puzzled why legislators have their own funds for their own projects and why the disbursement is controlled by the Executive. it’s designed to eliminate any independence between the brances.
I like your idea of a representative selected among representatives within a district. These ten (or some other optimal number) could very well be the municipal councilors of today with one of them chosen to represent the district at the national level. I also like the idea of local consultation among the councilors before voting on an issue since it keeps them more grounded to the sentiments of their district. What we need to arrive at is whether ten is the optimal number. This article on the optimal number of representatives is interesting – http://www.voxeu.org/index.php?q=node/601
It says that:
Unfortunately, the paper itself, which provides their formula is not free.
Regarding further inputs, Manolo has a number in his previous posts. Also, sometime back, the blogger ‘Hundredyearshence’ (blogspot) also came up with his own series of posts about ‘Design for Democracy’. I disagree with his proposal but i think you may find it interesting.
There is also this article on how to harness the wisdom of crowds via deliberative polling:
http://www.opendemocracy.net/article/democracy_power/deliberation/democratic_process
deVilsadVc8 on Tue, 23rd Oct 2007 3:12 am
cvj, all those ideas for reforms are nice. problem is, none of the sitting politicians today would endorse any of that as it’s counter-productive to their greed.
so how can we institute it?
revolution and civil war are the only answers.
little by little, my prediction of 3 years before “bastille” erupts is getting more and more plausible, doesn’t it?
vic on Tue, 23rd Oct 2007 5:31 am
Dean must be talking about Natural Gas which is much lighter than LPG and highly flammable. If if is leaking and accumulated inside a confined area and ignited by either electrical charge or spark or fire, then it has the potential of a bomb explosion and fireballs.
It is used for water heating and furnace fuel heating for winter and also for automotive. It is pipe into houses and building like water and if it leaks without being detected, just imagine your bathroom pipes leaking.. It is mixed with Rotten Eggs odor for easy detection.
But the worst and lethal by product of natural gas is carbon monoxide poisoning if not completely burnt and ventilated, just like monoxide poisoning from car exhaust inside a confined area…
vic on Tue, 23rd Oct 2007 5:44 am
deVil, by re-educating the politicians maybe? and along the whole collective consiousness of the masses that altogether we are responsible for where we are at the moment. but this easier said than done.
maybe your “bastille” is plausible, but not in a 3 years time. the people are not ready yet. I meant there are no leaders to rally around, no directions, not even some idea where the revolutions and civil war might led to.
but if the situation and conditions stay as they are, in due time may rise the revolutionary fervours among the oppressed like the Les Mis……
cvj on Tue, 23rd Oct 2007 8:06 am
Devils, you may be right, i’m not discounting that possibility, but preventing it is in our interest (at least mine). I don’t want it to be 1983 all over again.
deVilsadVc8 on Tue, 23rd Oct 2007 8:45 pm
vic, re-educating the politicians? that made me laugh. these politicians don’t need any re-education. they perfectly, and know fully well that what they’re doing is wrong. it’s the development of they’re conscience that went awry. we studied this in philosophy. a flawed conscience is beyond “re-education.”
and my 3 yrs prediction does not mean “bastille” will erupt exactly 3 yrs from now. it will merely be the beginning of the end for the Arroyo admin. it will be up to the people when they will feel enough is enough.
cvj, i think that waiting for it to ripen is in our interest. we should not manufacture it, we should not hasten it, we should not even campaign for it. a genuine revolution will spark real change. history has proven that.
Manila Bay Watch on Tue, 23rd Oct 2007 10:46 pm
Devils,
Re: “and my 3 yrs prediction does not mean “bastille†will erupt exactly 3 yrs from now. it will merely be the beginning of the end for the Arroyo admin. it will be up to the people when they will feel enough is enough.”
But by that time, 2010, Arroyo will be on her way out anyway so Bastille might not even happen. Frankly, I doubt it will ever happen (not in the French Revolution fashion.)
deVilsadVc8 on Wed, 24th Oct 2007 2:24 pm
MBW, by 2010, GMA will NOT be on her way out. she will be on her way IN for good. charter change will happen, and JDV will be ousted – one way or another. by 2010, GMA will be firmly in power. all these so-called opposition will by then be co-opted or like Trillanes, made irrelevant.
economic numbers would keep on surging, making those who play in stocks happy. but nobody else. as long as MBC and PCOC is kept happy, GMA will be in power. the Aquinos will be tolerated with their Luisita Hacienda, and pretty much everyone else like them. GMA would do well not to anger hacienderos like them.
for a while, Filipinos would bear with this bcoz there’s always the allure to go overseas, as demand for medical professionals, teachers, seamen, and other skilled laborers would hardly go down. why bother complaining when you can just leave the country to ruins?
the crack would start when the country is finally drained of skilled workers. educational quality not improving, demand for such laborers would slowly decrease. quality of life here further deteriorating, OFW families will have no recourse but to emigrate along with everyone from their family they can take with them. this in effect, would mean decreasing dollar inflows, until finally, this economic prop would collapse and finally expose the economic lie this govt has been resting on.
meanwhile, govt would be so degraded that law and order can hardly be kept anymore. somewhere along this line, martial law will have to be declared once criminality is so rampant even gated communities are not spared. demand for private bodyguards among the rich would increase. everyone who has some money or property to protect had better arm themselves.
the country would ignite once the barren Philippines I envision finally happens. this is when all who has the capability to leave has left, and basically what used to be the middle class is now classes D and E. this intellectual desert would be symptomatic of an abundance of messianic characters and groups professing deliverance thru God. except God would not be talked about. only the devil in politic’s robes.
Bastille in the French revolution fashion? oh i think it’ll be much worse if their leaders would be as intellectually bereft as them.
ay_naku on Wed, 24th Oct 2007 4:01 pm
Devils, that is a scary scenario. And the really disturbing part is that, at the rate things are going, it’s actually a very plausible scenario. I know you’re advocating some sort of civil war (i may be wrong, haven’t read all your comments), but can there be a better way out of this crisis? A better (and more peaceful) way of moving forward?
deVilsadVc8 on Wed, 24th Oct 2007 5:51 pm
ay_naku, am not fully advocating civil war. in fact am just saying such an event will benefit us. revolution i support more – but only a revolution led by intellectuals (if intellectual revolution of the masses is not possible). in my view, civil war always follow successful revolutions. it’s a fight bet differing factions within the revolutionaries who gets to control what’s left of the nation.
you’re asking of a better way? of course there’s always a better way. but o politician up to now have shown the will to go that way.
all it takes is to institute genuine reforms. not band-aid solutions. my anger at Gloria is that she definitely has political will – only that she’s using it agst her people, and furthering her own ends. she’d almost destroyed all our institutions, even the judiciary is in danger of collapsing. today, she battles the SC with her own EOs and AOs, making SC orders completely superflous or inutile. the writ of amparo being one example. made inutile with AO 197. the judiciary is always playing catch-up, employing knee-jerk reactions. if the SC wants to curb this increasingly authoritative admin, it has to beat the admin to the punch. make GMA’s admin react and not the other way around.
Manila Bay Watch on Wed, 24th Oct 2007 8:35 pm
Devils,
Interesting take… not so sure that Gloria can stay beyond 2010, coz as you say, Filipinos might not take perpetuating herself in power sitting down – well, that’s my thought. (I’m not Cassandra heh!)
deVilsadVc8 on Wed, 24th Oct 2007 9:28 pm
if they can stomach the Garci scandal, and the extrajudicial killings, they can stomach her staying beyond 2010. after all, its for the economy’s good.
baycas on Thu, 25th Oct 2007 6:05 am
testimony…
an email from a friend: