A trap of his own making
September 12, 2007 by mlq3
Filed under Events Mode
I was on standby for a quick interview on Channel News Asia (Singapore). They asked three questions.
Was the verdict a surprise?
No. Estrada himself leaked what the verdict would be, and in general, the scuttlebutt prior to the reading of the verdicts indicated the eventual ruling (I didn’t go into this, but the scuttlebutt was this: some sources said, conviction for perjury but acquittal for plunder: this was actually the scuttlebutt for some time until yesterday; others, acquittal for perjury but conviction on all counts of plunder; the most accurate came late in the day yesterday, and it was: acquittal for perjury and conviction on two out of four counts of plunder, which proved exactly right).
The thing is, the verdict is still the next to the last step, since the former President can still appeal to the Supreme Court. Not that anyone expects the Supreme Court to overturn the graft court’s verdicts.
As it is, Estrada’s Supreme Court appeal might take 1-3 years; meanwhile, he does have a kind of new lease on political life by refusing administration offers of a presidential pardon or a congressionally-sanctioned amnesty; we have a scheduled presidential election in 2010 and he can then ask for or receive a pardon from the next president (I didn’t go into how his ability to extract a pardon might be improved by his backing a candidate in 2010). Until the appeals process is exhausted, it seems the confiscation of Estrada’s bank accounts and New Manila property will be on hold, and he won’t be deprived of his ability to sign contracts and checks before then.
How are Estrada’s urban supporters taking it?
Asking around, I was surprised to hear that many of his supporters were in shock. But beyond that, the main thing is that while Estrada has the support of a third of the population, emotions peaked in May, 2001 when his supporters attacked the presidential palace. Affection for Estrada doesn’t necessarily translate into many people being willing to risk life and limb for him: they did that in 2001 and it failed (I didn’t have time to go into this, but it also means that it could still result in his supporters voting for candidates Estrada endorses).
The Club Filipino press conference at 1 and the rally in the financial capital, Makati, later today will show their clout in terms of numbers. As it is, they announced 5,000 protesters at the Sandiganbayan but only 500 showed up (I didn’t go into whether or not talk of cloud-seeding last night and the announcement by the Left that they won’t participate in the rallies had anything to do with this). I also didn’t have time to mention a strong hunch I have, which is that most people simply don’t care anymore: the political tension was primarily the Palace’s and media’s making.
Is this a boon for the opposition?
Estrada’s stuck in a trap of his own devising. He submitted to the court, saying it was a kangaroo court doesn’t cut it. Again, I didn’t have time to point out that basically, Estrada’s shield and sword is his popularity: but what if he made a summons, and nobody showed up? A call to arms would reveal, beyond a shadow of a doubt, what the real numbers (and resources) of the Estrada camp are. But then, this is based on my belief that the Bastille moment for Estrada’s cause was in 2001, and when that failed, you can’t recreate it again. Too much time has passed.
I did say that one handicap the opposition will have is that no one wants to be responsible for turmoil on the streets -and being accused of sabotaging the economy; as it is, the stock market and the peso improved immediately after the verdict. I didn’t have time to suggest that things getting out of hand (presuming this is possible) would also have a negative impact on Estrada’s appeal.
So that’s that. Let the analysis begin. The lawyer-bloggers will be in the front line in trying to make sense of the decision, whether it’s a legally-sound or disappointing one. An early opinion is that the court was too kind to Estrada.
What irks me is Chavit Singson going on TV to gloat. Talk about playing with matches while perched on a fuel drum. So far, he’s been the last man standing, but who will end up having the longest lease on political life? My bet’s on Estrada.
Inquirer.net and www.soriano-ph.com link to the Sandiganbayan decision. Atty. Soriano’s also made the PDF of the decision available on his site. I’ve also decided to include it here. It will take some time for non-lawyers to digest the 200-plus page decision.
As a member of the Black and White Movement, here’s our group’s statement.
Blogger reactions have been interesting. Let’s start with a broader look at the continuing historical debate on Estrada’s fall (as Carlo’s Site points out, for an entire generation, the fall was the defining moment in terms of a political coming of age). Philippine Commentary argues that the Supreme Court made it impossible for justice to be upheld, while The Sassy Lawyer points out there is sufficient evidence to indicate Estrada relinquished his office, as well as the blunt realpolitik argument that success legitimizes rebellion. My own views are somewhere in between: I don’t think enough attention was paid by the Supreme Court to Estrada’s statement (on paper) upon leaving the Palace, and too much was paid to then Executive Secretary Edgardo Angara’s interpretation of events; it seems clear that while the public demonstrated out of frustration with the impeachment trial, a politico-military conspiracy also took place.
I don’t buy Paguia’s insistence on the constitutional clock being frozen, either. While I continue to hold that People Power is enshrined in the Constitution, I do believe that the logical ending for Edsa Dos should have been the proclamation of a revolutionary government: the problems since then have been along the lines of trying to put the toothpaste back in the tube. I also don’t think that People Power, per se, has been invalidated since then; but its limitations have been exposed and unless specific conditions exist, efforts to get it rolling will fail.
A prediction was made by Inner Sanctum. Anyway, Diego K. Guerrero says the decision was crap. Mabini Hall (columnist Geronimo Sy, who privately expressed dissatisfaction with my comments on his column praising the president; he said to please distinguish issues from personalities), expresses great satisfaction over the verdict, calling it a triumph of institutions. Patsada Karajaw Nation thinks the case is an exception and won’t set a precedent (something blog@AWBHoldings.com thinks, too). An OFW in Hong Kong takes a more detached look at the verdict: people are simply going to move on. pmaniego is frankly ambivalent, while bits and pieces says different people wanted different outcomes, but in general, there’s a positive lesson to be learned. Mommy Talks, Wife Stories, Girl Speak says the entire political leadership’s been indicted and convicted. Zwischen Immer und Nie has little patience for those asking for leniency for Estrada.
The Perpetual Malcontent remarked acquittal might have been nice, if only as a slap on the face of media. ExpectoRants says the President at least, apologized, while Estrada remains unrepentant. EJ’s Site makes a different comparison between Estrada and the President.
Of Law and Badminton, on the other hand, points out there were other defendants and their prospects aren’t bright at all. The Silent Relief was amazed by Senator Jinggoy Estrada’s acquittal.
tonyo took the business community to task, while those of a different orientation, like pinoymoneytalk.com pointed to the boost in the markets after the verdict was handed down. i love the playing field takes school authorities to task, saying if they can set aside time for students to watch basketball games, they should have let students follow the proceedings.Stella Arnaldo points out the American solution for Watergate was a pardon for Nixon: and that a pardon for Estrada is inevitable.
So far, at least (not least because of the rain?) the sense of foreboding of Ilongga in Manila, of muffled solitude, and When Thet Speaks, among others, may prove unfounded. There were those, like Postcard Headlines, who were sure nothing major was going to happen. Most remarkable, to me, are the expressions of sympathy for Estrada, simply as a human being. Pity for Estrada was felt by The Chronicles of Ardee, and from what I see scanning the blogosphere, many others. From Dubai, Slap Happy recounts an early confrontation between Erap, newly-elected president, and people in Subic; and yet, how Estrada, now an ex-president, deserves a little consideration. Another rewind and fast-forward look’s taken by Bluepanjeet.net, and a quote is called for at this point:
Now six years later, the verdict finally arrived. The same battle cry that we used to chant in EDSA six years ago together with all the people of God has just been made into a realization, just an hour after this post was written.
I never regretted the fact that I became an instrument of history’s ousting of a corrupt president. It was a matter of national principle and moral ascendancy even though I myself and the rest of the Filipinos have our share of moral transgressions. What I regret is the fact that the person who replaced the former president is more corrupt and deceiving.
It is like an evolution: the more time flies, the more corrupt they become. No wonder many Filipinos these days are Atheist because Charles Darwin’s theory of evolution has proven true of these self-evolved supposed leaders of the Orient Pearl. In some point of my catholic perspective, I agree with some of my Atheist blog friends’ belief in Darwin’s Theory because they have proven correct in terms of our leader’s political evolution. Look at Gloria now… This is the only time that my catholic view of Darwin’s theory will fully reconcile on the atheist’s perspective of evolution.
In a recent SWS survey, Erap was found to be trustworthy than Arroyo and believed that the former is far better than the latter (Read the full SWS report). But the bottom-line is, justice is not dictated by public opinion. He committed acts of unbecoming of a president, which only deserve such penal discipline. Of course the sympathy outpours on the convicted, but be reminded that our acts towards men has consequences that has to be faced. And it is now time that Erap should face his’.
Now the Irony, if Erap’s minions six years ago did open the envelope, would he face this same kind of political “harassment†or dilemma in the first place? This kind of “What-if-question†will just remain as is that will haunt Erap for the rest of his life behind bars.
The other Irony, the situation for Arroyo is a lose-lose situation: Now Erap is convicted, Arroyo will soon face the charges filed against her and her hubby. Now that the court has proven that, no one is above the law even if you are a former president. With this, Erap’s minions will also work hard in trying to charge the president of mistrust. And if for instance, Erap was acquitted, still the same enthusiasm of getting Arroyo and her hubby behind bars will still prove potent for her enemies motivated by such intentions of getting back at her. This is the situation that Arroyo cannot escape. Whichever way her administration treat the case of Erap (which was recently concluded) she will still earn the ire of many Filipinos around the world, both inside and outside the realm of public surveys, just because like her predecessor, she failed to live up to her August’s office name.
Goliath has fallen, and the Estrada Case is only the beginning of a much heated ousting of a leader. Erap was found Guilty as expected and as common sense dictates. The next chapter is Gloria’s turn to caress the cold steel bars with her hubby with much help from most of the Opposition Senators.
Technorati Tags: Edsa, law, media, philippines, politics, president
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genny on Wed, 12th Sep 2007 2:28 pm
i just hope that the 3 judges were not “consumed” with the events happening outside their realm with regards to the decisions they have made with regards to estrada’s cases….hopefully, they do have “consciences”….;)
taga de cebu on Wed, 12th Sep 2007 2:49 pm
May the guilty verdict on Estrada be a fair WARNING to the the current president that one day(hopefully soon) she will also be judged by history and hopefully by the same justice system for all the extrajudicial killings under her administation, Hello Garci cheating scandal,Jose Pidal,Jocjoc Bolante ,ZTE mega scandal and other controversies during her term.
I hope she follows the example of Erap and face the music here and NOT emulate the flight strategy of Marcos to Hawaii.”Vamos a ver” (we will see…abangan!)
Acda on Wed, 12th Sep 2007 3:02 pm
And the soap opera that is Philippine politics continues. Pero sawa na ako sa cast na ito. Can we move on to the next season?
taga de cebu on Wed, 12th Sep 2007 3:20 pm
There is Gallery of Presidents of the Philippines, situated in the Main Hall of Malacanang Palace.At the rate we are going ,it’s becoming more like Rogues Gallery ! What a shame!
mlq3 on Wed, 12th Sep 2007 3:27 pm
acda, estrada just guaranteed himself a starring role in 2010. notice the president huddled in the palace with her people, while most everyone who wants to matter in 2010 made a beeline for the sandiganbayan. this is the most interesting thing to me, after all relevance is a basic requirement for political clout.
taga de cebu on Wed, 12th Sep 2007 4:00 pm
If the Continuing Saga of Philippine Presidents were to be given a title,I would suggest “The Great,The Good ,The Bad and the Bad and Ugly”
The Great:MLQ,RM
The Good:CPG,DM,CA,FVR
The Bad:Two of them.
The Bad And Ugly:you know who!
John Christian Canda on Wed, 12th Sep 2007 4:21 pm
The Estrada guilty should indeed serve as a warning to corrupt politicians, both administration and opposition.
Rom on Wed, 12th Sep 2007 5:04 pm
mlq3:”Let the analysis” – and the SPINNING – “begin.” Already, estrada has made a big deal about how the justices of the SB were pressured “from above.” If he has such contempt for the judicial system, why engaGE it at all?
When he made that grand gesture of firing his lawyers, he should have stuck to his guns and totally rejected the SB as a vehicle for justice. Instead, he hires Saguisag and plays along. Kinda like an atheist getting baptized just before death – what did he have to lose after all? If he got the decision he wanted, he would regain his legitimacy. If he didn’t – as in fact he didn’t – he would just snarl and say the decision was flawed.
People – opposition politicians especially – should really stop riding the coattails of this lothario. When I vote in 2010, I want to vote for someone who can convince me that he has a workable plan to take this country out of the shit hole that it’s in, not someone who includes “Supported Estrada” as a major point in his CV.
hiram1104 on Wed, 12th Sep 2007 5:04 pm
Congratulations to the Sandiganbayan for a very courageous decision. Knowing that Erap has tremendous political clouts did not deter them from finding Erap Guilty of plunder.Those presidential wannabes who are obviously capitalizing on Erap’s underdog image did not deserve our votes. They’re vultures cascading on Erap’s political carcass hoping to feast on them.
BrianB on Wed, 12th Sep 2007 5:08 pm
“notice the president huddled in the palace with her people, while most everyone who wants to matter in 2010 made a beeline for the sandiganbayan.”
Yeah maybe the lemming have a clue.
BrianB on Wed, 12th Sep 2007 5:09 pm
ehem, lemmingS
BrianB on Wed, 12th Sep 2007 5:11 pm
What if Erap hadn’t succumed to Edsa 2. Any theories? Anyone?
mlq3 on Wed, 12th Sep 2007 5:45 pm
rom, when his case didn’t seem to be going anywhere in 2006, i thought he should just gamble on running for the senate. he could have gambled on just refusing to recognize the authority of the court, as you pointed out. but then again, he’s an old pro so maybe he calculated it doesn’t matter what you do, as long as you make puppydog eyes at the end of it all.
but i don’t think any candidate in 2010 will focus on what their stand on estrada was. they might mention it to audiences that market research says still cares about that, but i think you’ll be pleasantly surprised by the electorate’s demands come 2010: they will insist on candidates proving they have a plan and not just good intentions.
gee. looky, looky. me, an optimist!
mlq3 on Wed, 12th Sep 2007 5:46 pm
brian, it depends. at which point do you want to speculate concerning the fork in the road?
Manila Bay Watch on Wed, 12th Sep 2007 6:28 pm
Meanwhile, here’s a list of scandals and anomalous transactions that Gloria and her government have been involved in from day 1 after having toppled former President Estrada (and unresolved to this day):
The list is from DJB’s Philippine Commentary thread “After Erap, Who’s next?†http://www.philippinecommentary.blogspot.com , preceeded by a brief introduction (his).
Readers may google any of the following search terms to get an idea of the vast quagmire of corruption and malfeasance that Gloria Macapagal Arroyo and her diehard allies must surely be brought before the Bar of Justice for:
Jose Pidal unexplained wealth
Nani Perez, IMPSA bribery scandal
Diosdado Macapagal Boulevard
NAIA-3
Impeachment of Hilario Davide
Venable Contract Norberto Gonzales
EO 464
Oakwood Mutiny
JocJoc Bolante fertilizer scam
Comelec Automated Counting Machine scandal
2004 elections Philippines
Maguindanao Zubiri Pimentel Bedol
Hello Garci Wiretapping and Electoral Rigging Case
Kidnapping Vidal Doble Family Medy Poblador
Extrajudicial Killings
ZTE National Broadband Network Deal
Basilan Beheadings Abu Sayyaf and MILF Peace Talks
Bencard on Wed, 12th Sep 2007 6:46 pm
regardless of how anyone spins it, a court of law has spoken. estrada is a convicted mandarambong. a triumph of the rule of law. another egg on the face of the incorrigible cynic. make no mistake about it. a conviction (beyond reasonable doubt) is supported by clear and convincing evidence that allows no room for doubt. now, its not a mere accusation or “political harassment”. estrada has stolen hundreds of millions of pesos that rightfully belong to the people at the time the country was desperately in need of it. any politician who continues to venerate him like a fly on an excrement should see the folly of his ways.
btw, someone in jinggoy’s camp should counsel him to refrain from calling his father “president”, or “the president”, while addressing the incumbent by her first or last name. i know he is in denial, but he should come to terms with reality now. but then again, what could anyone expect from a guy like him?
cvj on Wed, 12th Sep 2007 6:46 pm
With the conviction of Estrada, the victory of EDSA Dos is technically complete. Now to complete EDSA Tres…
pinoy on Wed, 12th Sep 2007 7:08 pm
The trial of Erap was as fair and honest as the ZTE deal.
Those who deplore deceit and corruption overflowing in this regime could be guilty of double standard if they belieive that Erap’s got a fair trial.
In the first place, the proper venue for the trial was the impeachment proceedings. Secondly, the special court of the Sandiganayan was extra-constitutionally constituted.
boying cruz on Wed, 12th Sep 2007 7:25 pm
Mahirap matuwa sa pangyayaring ito kay Erap habang hindi pa rin napaparusahan o nakakasuhan man lang si Gloria sa mga kasalanan niya.
Devilsadvc8 on Wed, 12th Sep 2007 7:52 pm
cvj, the “victory” of EDSA 2 will never be completed. It was hijacked right from the start, by people undeserving to benefit from it.
Bluepanjee’s ruminations lead only to one conclusion, which is what I believe all along. If GMA’s turn to face justice is inevitable, she really only has one choice. Hold on to power forever.
Itaga mo sa bato, di sya bababa sa pwesto.
Or is there another way out for her?
Notice the number of deals this government has with China. Perhaps, GMA et al will do relinquish power, but only after stealing enough for their rainy days, and greasing their future escape path: China.
Do we have an extradition treaty with China, and can we expect to successfully extradite the buggers if they do flee the country?
Can GMA ever expect the same mercy the way ERAP expects it from the Filipino people? Erap, unlike GMA, only stole from the people. (and I’m not saying plunder is a small thing. I’m only saying: in comparison to what GMA did) GMA on the other hand, stole money, the vote, and lives of people. For every deparecidos’ family under this regime, who will be willing to forgive her? And what for? forgiveness is only for those who are sorry.
Manolo, there’s reason to be optimistic. I don’t think voters will just insist on someone to have a plan (assuming there is an election). I think voters will more than likely refuse the TRAPOS, and self-proclaimed saviors. Likewise, voters would be more wary of two-faced candidates, who say one thing but then turn back on their word the moment they win. I’m seriously expecting that if someone relatively new in politics would somehow run for president in 2010, he’d win by a landslide. As many of the present presidentiables evicts vomitus with a lot of people today. None of them is acceptable.
taga de cebu on Wed, 12th Sep 2007 7:54 pm
IMPUNITY:Exemption from punishment, penalty, or harm.
Can somebody from this blog explain why unscrupulous Filipino politicians act with impunity when they are in power? Akala ba nila “they can fool all the people all the time?”
This was true with Erap (based on the details in 293-page verdict) and happening again in the current administration.
cvj on Wed, 12th Sep 2007 7:55 pm
Devils, i get your point. That’s why i added the qualifier ‘technically‘.
Devilsadvc8 on Wed, 12th Sep 2007 8:09 pm
cvj, ah yes. i missed that.
taga, the explanation is simple. No follow through. Impunity reigns bec no one is punished CONSISTENTLY. The LAW isn’t applied EQUALLY. Try to punish every corrupt official who’s ever graced politics in this country (including those fleeing by extraditing them, relentlessly) and you’d see these swine fall in line.
You can say mahirap na madali disiplinahin ang Pilipino.
Mahirap dahil obstinate tayo. Madali dahil once ipakita mo na wala kang sasantuhin, mabilis pa tayo sa alas kwatrong sumunod sa batas.
Bakit ang mga drivers sa Subic disiplanado, pero pag nakalabas na dito, masahol pa sa aso magmaneho?
Sa subic, walang driver na lumalabag sa batas ang sinasanto ng mga pulis. Elsewhere, konting padulas lang.
“Political will” will go a long way in ridding us of corruption. A president truly wishing to lift our country from poverty will have to seriously confront this issue before anything else.
Why? Everything follows with a clean bureaucracy. Not exactly everything following, but enough to make implementing good changes easier.
taga de cebu on Wed, 12th Sep 2007 8:11 pm
“Political will†will go a long way in ridding us of corruption. A president truly wishing to lift our country from poverty will have to seriously confront this issue before anything else.devil’s adv.”
amen
mlq3 on Wed, 12th Sep 2007 8:14 pm
devils, i do agree that the public mood would welcome a tough, no-nonsense outsider: if one emerged and ran for president. but failing that, i think they’d also be more inclined to consider candidates who can demonstrate they have a plan, some sort of eq along with iq, and have shown some self control in the past. i think most people aren’t extremist by nature and are seeking balance.
pinoy on Wed, 12th Sep 2007 8:34 pm
taga de cebu,
“Political will” must be qualified. It can be good will or evil will. Hitler had political will. So had Winston Churchill. But obviously there was a big difference.
You’re also implying that GMA lacks political will. Well, she obviously had the political will to cheat in 2004 elections. Cheating in that scale takes some guts. She has the will to pursue controversial, if not anomalous, deals with China, to open large-scale mining sites nothwithstanding local resistance, to promote Palparan, appoint ret Generals to civilian posts, Angelo Reyes from one post to another, Atienza to DENR …
GMA has political will. The question is is it good political will or evil? Frmr SWD Sec. Dinky Soliman who had obseved her upclose and personal said GMA has the capacity for evil.
taga de cebu on Wed, 12th Sep 2007 8:42 pm
“I have sat at the sumptuous tables of power, but I have not run away with the silverware.”..DIOSDADO MACAPAGAL
“Frmr SWD Sec. Dinky Soliman who had observed her upclose and personal said GMA has the capacity for evil.PINOY”
How will you reconcile these two quotes.President Macapagal was so honest,the daughter so different.
pinoy on Wed, 12th Sep 2007 8:48 pm
“some sort of eq along with iq” = mlq ?
taga de cebu on Wed, 12th Sep 2007 8:49 pm
There are now two former presidents(The dictator and the recently convicted one) with a records of notoriety and a third one who who could soon join them in the Presidential Rogues Gallery of Philippine History.She is a very strong candidate.
taga de cebu on Wed, 12th Sep 2007 8:55 pm
The Presidential Rogues Gallery could aptly be called the “MEA Culpa Gallery”.
M -Marcos
E -Erap
A -Arroyo
A warning to future occupants to the throne in Malacanang Palace(incidentally,why do we call this PALACE?)
the bystander on Wed, 12th Sep 2007 9:11 pm
now it’s erap. tomorrow it’s gloria.
the bystander on Wed, 12th Sep 2007 9:17 pm
i maintain that erap should have been convicted for a lesser offense (violation of RA 3019 probably) but definitely not plunder.
and i agree with rene saguisag. special courts like the one created for erap are really programmed to convict.
soon the filipino people will create one for gloria.
taga de cebu on Wed, 12th Sep 2007 9:17 pm
“now it’s erap. tomorrow it’s gloria.THE BYSTANDER”
It is as sure as death and taxes and everything in between.
justice in waiting on Wed, 12th Sep 2007 9:18 pm
Estrada fate is now known, while the sitting President is still unknown and could be worse, for hers sins as alleged are so numerous and Justice is Waiting, may take a little, still she is young, lots of time, justice Philippine style maybe slow, but sometimes it works…
the bystander on Wed, 12th Sep 2007 9:20 pm
for all those who think and believe that the verdict on estrada was a triumph of the rule of law, think again.
pinoy on Wed, 12th Sep 2007 9:20 pm
mlq3,
“Tal pueblo, tal gobierno [As the people are, so their government is].â€
“The people get the government they deserve.”
“Vox populi, vox dei (the voice of the people is the voice of God).”
the bystander on Wed, 12th Sep 2007 9:26 pm
considering that the guilty verdict was unanimous, it’s very unlikely that the sandiganbayan would overturn its decision. the real battle now has shifted to the supreme court. either i smell an acquittal or a conviction for a lesser offense.
gloria, you’re next!
taga de cebu on Wed, 12th Sep 2007 9:30 pm
“I have sat at the sumptuous tables of power, but I have not run away with the silverware.â€
Diosdado Macapagal
WARNING to his duaghter!
taga de cebu on Wed, 12th Sep 2007 9:37 pm
“Speaking for the first time since Wednesday morning’s Sandiganbayan decision on Estrada’s plunder and perjury case, Arroyo said the “people are tired of political drama.”
I think she was talking to the mirror.tsk,tsk
pinoy on Wed, 12th Sep 2007 9:38 pm
Gloria is running away with the table!
iRonnie on Wed, 12th Sep 2007 9:46 pm
chavit should also be behind bars. the nerve of him to feel like a messiah. i’d rather call him judas.
Manila Bay Watch on Wed, 12th Sep 2007 10:16 pm
“gloria, you’re next!
Yep, the Bystander – ditto that!
supremo on Wed, 12th Sep 2007 10:47 pm
Erap (drama according to GMA) chapter done. Let’s start with the Gloria (most likely massacre) chapter.
If Gloria insists on staying in Malacanang, we will just rename it as the Gloria Arroyo National Penitentiary.
Devilsadvc8 on Wed, 12th Sep 2007 11:59 pm
Pinoy, I’ve said your sentiments in past posts. I’m not denying GMA has political will. I’m saying she’s exercising it for all the wrong reasons and all the wrong policies. Which differentiates a Lee Kwan Yew from a Marcos.
MLQ3, of course that is EXACTLY the public mood. The public is so disgusted with politics in general they’d welcome any juan de la cruz not tainted with it. And okay, qualifying presidentiables who have both EQ and IQ, who do we have? seriously. civil society has to come up with a candidate aside from the ones presenting themselves today. No to Mar, Loren, Lacson, or any other politician. If I’m forced to choose between any of the people presenting themselves now, I’d have to boycott the 2010 elections and decidedly leave this country for good!
And yes, most people aren’t extremist by nature. I know I sure wasn’t. But frustration does pushes you to be otherwise, doesn’t it? Maybe that’s where all those fundamentalists come from… (btw, have u read the transcript of Bin Laden’s videotaped message? that was some thumping he gave Bush and America)
3rdson on Thu, 13th Sep 2007 12:44 am
mlq3:we all have a bit of an optimist in us, i guess. but really, the demands of the electorate seem to matter very little in deciding who runs for office, don’t you think? the process followed by parties in selecting their candidates isn’t all that susceptible to public pressure after all. oh dear. am i a pessimist?
3rdson on Thu, 13th Sep 2007 12:54 am
whew. naubos ingles ko dun a.
Bencard on Thu, 13th Sep 2007 2:17 am
dream on, folks. there is a whale of a difference between what erap has done and what pgma is speculated to be liable for. erap did what he did directly either as principal, accomplice or co-conspirator. pgma, even on panfilo’s or cayetano’s (et al.) wildest accusations, cannot be directly linked to a criminal act, let alone a capital offense.
any one can make up charges against any one. a thousand alleged anomalies (in addition to djb’s list, as recited by mbw,) are all non sequitors as far as pgma is concerned without judicially admissible evidence directly involving her. if there is an iota of such damning evidence, do you think panfilo, cayetano, etc. (with their protective privilege), or erap’s minions (with their seemingly bottomless pockets), would not have already shouted it to any one who would care to listen, even if they could not make it stick in a court of law or any other proper forum?
keep on dreaming, guys. just don’t try to take the law in your own hands. you may not be up to it.
taga de cebu on Thu, 13th Sep 2007 4:48 am
“keep on dreaming, guys. just don’t try it with your own hands. you may not be up to it.bencard”
Bencard,coming from you,makes sense!based on experience?
BrianB on Thu, 13th Sep 2007 4:57 am
“With the conviction of Estrada, the victory of EDSA Dos is technically complete. Now to complete EDSA Tres…”
The fetus has been aborted, the fetus has been aborted.
taga de cebu on Thu, 13th Sep 2007 5:00 am
“I have sat at the sumptuous tables of power, but I have not run away with the silverware.â€
Diosdado Macapagal
President MacapagalLthe father of Gloria was such a decent man!I truly admire the “Poor Man from Lubao”.
I have the feeling Gloria turned out this way due to the influence of Jose Pidal!What a Big One can do to a small one.Pity naman!
frombelow on Thu, 13th Sep 2007 6:40 am
some triumphalists said erap’s conviction means the rule of law prevailed, but others said it was a political out to legitimize…
some do-gooders said that it will be a fair warning to othersnot to engage in corruption but others said that howe come that erap was punished but more corrupt… are being spared.
come to think of it, those two diametrically opposed perceptions will continue to dominate the consciousness of the Filipino people for years to come which will guarantee a divided and confused society.
we still have no unanimity of thought. a simple case of a former government official punished for misdeeds will not be accepted clearly by everyone.
why? because it is more crystal clear that while we are trying to do good ( punishing to set example ) we always failed to do it right.
pinoy on Thu, 13th Sep 2007 6:50 am
mlq3,
Am I supposed to react to the news? I mean do something? Should I? I have other things to do. I’ll react only if it treathens me directly. Otherwise, commentating is just fine. Nothing more. And since I’m kinda hooked, nothing less. Just got to get a fix, commentating — a national past time?
rego on Thu, 13th Sep 2007 8:25 am
As usual, I completely agree with Bencard two post.
And I believe Sandigan bayan shoudl be congratulated for finally coming up with the verdict.
Manolo,
Sure, Erap is very much welcome to participate in 2010 in what ever way he wants. The same way that he particpated in Philippine politics since he was a mayor. No wnat is preventing or can prevent him from doing so. And I always believe that everyone is entitled to “self redemption”. I just hope that he will do good in 2010. Kasi kadalasan yung napakahirap makabalik sa pelikula ang isang artista laos.
CVJ,
What kind of closure you want for “EDSA 3″.
MBW,
Is that all that you can do, make a list? I just hope you dont stop there. Go and get Gloria. . Note that Erap Eraps list is shorter , but look he got convicted.
rego on Thu, 13th Sep 2007 8:27 am
iRonnie :
chavit should also be behind bars. the nerve of him to feel like a messiah. i’d rather call him judas.
————
The only way put chavit behind bars is to file charges, right?
cvj on Thu, 13th Sep 2007 8:40 am
Rego, that’s for the EDSA Tres crowd to determine. Just like you, i’m from EDSA Dos so the most i can do is listen (and react).
On Chavit, if it were not for his immunity, he would also have been found guilty.
inodoro ni emilie on Thu, 13th Sep 2007 8:45 am
i want jocjoc’s head on the platter, too. pronto!
Dirk Pitt on Thu, 13th Sep 2007 8:47 am
Year 2014: history repeats itself:
“regardless of how anyone spins it, a court of law has spoken. GLORIA ARROYO is a convicted mandarambong. a triumph of the rule of law. another egg on the face of the incorrigible cynic. make no mistake about it. a conviction (beyond reasonable doubt) is supported by clear and convincing evidence that allows no room for doubt. now, its not a mere accusation or “political harassmentâ€. estrada has stolen hundreds of millions of pesos that rightfully belong to the people at the time the country was desperately in need of it. any politician who continues to venerate him like a fly on an excrement should see the folly of his ways.”
inodoro ni emilie on Thu, 13th Sep 2007 8:48 am
however, i want that roller pinned along diosdado macapagal highway. well if chavit can lay still beside jocjoc, that would even be more delectable.
inodoro ni emilie on Thu, 13th Sep 2007 8:52 am
“No to Mar, Loren, Lacson, or any other politician.”
devils, i’ll be at your right hand. in fact, no to politicians whose surnames have been repeatedly recycled election year in and out.
justice in waiting on Thu, 13th Sep 2007 8:59 am
Allegations against PGMA can also be said against the two Ex Prime Ministers of Bangladesh, now they are both in Jail, charged with Corruptions and anomolies during their turns at the till along with a couple of hundreds of other Politicians and High Public Officials. Bangladesh is doing a Clean Up, the Philippines will be doing hers soon, and it will start at the VERY TOP. so forget about the Selective Justice sytem that got its mandated from who is sitting in Malacanang, when times comes Justice is Waiting….
taga de cebu on Thu, 13th Sep 2007 9:11 am
Watch Ricky Carandang tonight in Big Picture for the interview with “whistleblower” Joey de Venecia.Ricky said that Joey implied in the interview that somebody really powerful was with Abalos in ZTE.Sino kaya?Big or Small one???
taga de cebu on Thu, 13th Sep 2007 9:20 am
Ok,Erap is now a convict.But somebody else is far worse than
Erap not only in corruption but in dictatorial tendencies.
In 2010,do you she will:
a)Face the music just like Erap.
b)Go on exile like Marcos.
c)Try to cling to power through another “Con-con” or Con-Ass” manuever?
My guess is C(she has no other choice to protect her own skin).
cvj on Thu, 13th Sep 2007 9:29 am
Taga, my [wild] guess is that she’ll die in office. The only question is when and how.
taga de cebu on Thu, 13th Sep 2007 9:38 am
CVJ:I hope not.Ate Glo said “Tama na ang drama!”
Anton on Thu, 13th Sep 2007 9:51 am
Sad to say, We Filipinos have a penchant for thinking up a lot of conspiracy theories as to why he was convicted. Why bother having these institutions in place if we do not want to believe in the verdict rendered anyway. We might as well just dissolve these institutions that were put in place and spend the money on other worthy endeavors.
The problem with our people is that they want democratic institutions in place, then if things do not favor their way, they lambast these institutions. In any trial, there will always be winners and losers. Filipinos love to connect the Gloria problem and the Erap problem as if they’re one and the same. Erap was put on trial for plunder and he was convicted. It has nothing to do with Gloria taking over the Presidency. THAT IS A DIFFFERENT PROBLEM.
Our country will never grow up if we don’t start believing in the institutions we ourselves set up. It makes me think that Filipinos are such a suspicious lot. Every decision/event that doesn’t go their way will always have an angle. Jeez.
taga de cebu on Thu, 13th Sep 2007 9:59 am
List of Presidents of the Philippines in the “Gallery of Presidents”in Malacanang Palace
1)Emilio Aguinaldo
2)Manuel l.Quezon
3)Jose P.Laurel
4)Sergio Osmena
5)Manuel Roxas
6)Elpidio Quirino
7)Ramon Magsaysay
8)Carlos Garcia
9)Diosdado Macapagal
10)Ferdinand Marcos
11)Corazon Aquino
12)Fidel Ramos
13)Joseph Estrada
14)Gloria Macapagal Arroyo
My nominees for the Presidential Rogues Gallery:
1)Ferdinand Marcos(died in exile)
2)Joseph Estrada(convicted)
any other suggestions(lol)
Anton on Thu, 13th Sep 2007 9:59 am
I guess Pinoys are Congenital Cynics then….:-)
taga de cebu on Thu, 13th Sep 2007 10:03 am
“I guess Pinoys are Congenital Cynics then….:-)Anton”
I just met one.
DevilsAdvc8 on Thu, 13th Sep 2007 10:09 am
“devils, i’ll be at your right hand. in fact, no to politicians whose surnames have been repeatedly recycled election year in and out.”
Which just goes to show that my sentiment is not a lone one. And I’ll be betting majority of our people feel the same. No to anyone who’s ever held office. Unless his name’s Jesse Robredo.
frombelow on Thu, 13th Sep 2007 10:24 am
“no to politicians whose surnames have been repeatedly recycled election year in and out.”
Hehehe.
Here we go again bloggers. Bloggers, including me, and other Internet-users. Have we forgotten the so-called digital divide.
And then some of us have the nerve to say that the next president could come from fresh crop of public servants.
My bet is this. Napanood na natin yan. Last 2007 elections, a group tried to present themselves as an alternative.People actually never rejected them. Di sila kilala talaga.Bumoto yata sa kanila ung mga bloggers lang at ilang kala mo kung sinong matitino.
C’mon folks. Come 2010 elections, it will be either lacson, loren, mar or manny as president. Ganun talaga. Bumaba kayo sa masa para malaman nyo ang mentalidad nila.
Arbet on Thu, 13th Sep 2007 10:27 am
“Why bother having these institutions in place if we do not want to believe in the verdict rendered anyway. We might as well just dissolve these institutions that were put in place and spend the money on other worthy endeavors.”
Anton, say that to the EDSA Dos crowd.
Bencard on Thu, 13th Sep 2007 10:28 am
cvj, if you’re planning to cause it yourself, you should know when and how. you just put yourself in the list of possible suspects, or, at least what we call here “persons of interest”. hope the n.b.i. would take note.
“i want jocjoc’s head on the platter, too. pronto!” who do you think you are , inodoro, king herod reincarnate? i think you should just be content catching and receiving you know what.
taga de cebu, if you are going to quote me, maybe you might want to do it correctly. i see that you changed what i wrote to add obscene flavor to it. i can play that game too, you know, but this time, i will take the “high road” in deference to our host, mlq3, whom i respect.
taga de cebu on Thu, 13th Sep 2007 10:31 am
“i will take the “high road†in deference to our host, mlq3, whom i respect.bencard”
It is about time!
taga de cebu on Thu, 13th Sep 2007 10:41 am
We are too serious with all the talk on plunder and convictions .
Here’s a a popular Aussie joke for a good friend who is trying very hard “to take the high road” :
Aussie Kiss:Similar to a French Kiss, but given down under.
cvj on Thu, 13th Sep 2007 10:42 am
Taga, i can understand why she would want that. FWIW, i’m all for happy endings, but since you asked about possible futures, we need to be thorough and consider all possibilities which ranges from a violent end a-la Caeusescu couple or a peaceful death due to old age as ‘President for life’, both of which are offshoots of your scenario ‘c’.
Bencard, since i explicitly said i did not know when and how, that would be an unwarranted accusation on your part. As someone told me yesterday, lighten up.
DJB on Thu, 13th Sep 2007 10:43 am
So, has Joseph Estrada lost the Presumption of Innocence?
taga de cebu on Thu, 13th Sep 2007 10:45 am
DJB: Joseph Estrada is sadly a convict now.
inodoro ni emilie on Thu, 13th Sep 2007 10:53 am
“i want jocjoc’s head on the platter, too. pronto!†who do you think you are , inodoro, king herod reincarnate? i think you should just be content catching and receiving you know what.
no, bencard. once upon a time i think i was a guillotiner.
inodoro ni emilie on Thu, 13th Sep 2007 10:58 am
a king herod reincarnate, not. but i know of a marcos reincarnate morphing–but am not running away and giving up the philippines like a lost cause, bencard.
inodoro ni emilie on Thu, 13th Sep 2007 10:59 am
and only to return and retire when the coast is clear.
taga de cebu on Thu, 13th Sep 2007 11:07 am
inidoro ni emilie:Let’s leave Bencards in peace! He is trying VERY HARD “to take the high road”.I guess it’s easier for him to join a Pinoy blog and vicariously enjoy the political excitement here than to START joining the blogs down under.It’s called “inferiority complex”.
But I still think it’s cheaper than going to a therapist down under for all the pent-up feelings and ansgst of a terribly lonely self -confessed exile.
Jon Mariano on Thu, 13th Sep 2007 11:12 am
List of issues against Arroyo updated at http://arroyocorruption.pbwiki.com/
hindi ako botante on Thu, 13th Sep 2007 11:18 am
We always wanted to catch the BIG fish when it comes to anomalies in the government. Now we got one with the conviction of Erap. The only thing missing is all the collaborators should be included in the conviction. Dahil sa susunod na Presidente, they may be the same people who may infuence the President and will know that they can get away with it.
I dont believe GMA would like Erap to be convicted because she knows she may be next in line if the next President is given enough pressure like what is pressured on GMA by EDSA Dos forces. It will be best that the Filipino people pressure the next President so that he/she will know that he/she needs to get his/her act together or he/she will also be next in line.
Let this be a warning to crooked politikos and hoping (or wishing?) for more of triumphs of justice.
inodoro ni emilie on Thu, 13th Sep 2007 11:36 am
taga cebu: it is benigs who is from down under. bencard, on well, lives in the sweet haven of exiles, far from the corrupt reign of marcosian spectre. mewonders why he beats me up for seeking jocjoc head? kuya mo ba siya, ben? nagtatanong lang po.
inodoro ni emilie on Thu, 13th Sep 2007 11:37 am
mali ang tanong. kamag-anak mo ba siya, ben?
Bencard on Thu, 13th Sep 2007 11:38 am
taga, wrong geography. i’m not “down under”. maybe you’re confusing me with benignO. i’m in u.s. of a. then again, what do you care?
tonio on Thu, 13th Sep 2007 11:40 am
t d c:
i think bencard’s american. it’s benign0 who writes from down under.
i really loved villa-ignacio’s proclamations that the verdict proves that no one is above the law.
i want to see the sandiganbayan work with “uncharacteristic speed” on an arroyo crony.
Anton on Thu, 13th Sep 2007 11:42 am
Arbet:
AM not sure what you meant when you say
“Say that to the EDSA Dos Crowd”
DO you mean that since they’re the one who put Erap in that position, and now they’re at the Sandiganbayan supporting him, that they should be chided for it?
All I am saying really is we should just accept the verdict and not try to put any more spin into it. He was charged and prosecuted, he was defended and a verdict was given. That’s it.
ricelander on Thu, 13th Sep 2007 11:44 am
Time to look at the Erap ruling if it could pass rigorous test of logic. Then we can judge if the Sandiganbayan did him right or wrong.
Bencard on Thu, 13th Sep 2007 11:55 am
ricelander, logic could demonstrate it either way, right or wrong. it depends on the premise, i.e., right premise, right logic; wrong foundation, wrong conclusion. there is such a thing as fallacious “logic”, is there not? i think erap’s conviction is in accordance with the due process of law.
benign0 on Thu, 13th Sep 2007 12:13 pm
“Why bother having these institutions in place if we do not want to believe in the verdict rendered anyway. We might as well just dissolve these institutions that were put in place and spend the money on other worthy endeavors.”
.
This happened too when everyone went berserk when Congress failed to impeach Arroyo back in 2005. It brings up the question of why people would vote for their representatives in the Legislature AND THEN not respect the resolutions they pass. Or for that matter, why have the Legislature in the first place?
Even in the practice of “democracy”, Pinoys are pakitang-tao. We fund all these “democratic institutions” with hard-earned taxes (para lang masabing we have them) yet show no inclination to channel our “democratic exercises” through them. Instead we would rather more gleefully work AROUND them by gathering in the streets to dance the ocho-ocho while chanting the political slogans of our favourite politicians.
I wrote back in 2005:
Who votes disobedient representatives into congress in the first place? Would a smart (or at the very least sane) person appoint a pedophile to watch over her kids? A government officiated by fools in a democracy merely reflects the fools who exercised their rights to vote to put them there. This is but another bout of this selective amnesia that Filipinos are world-renowned for. The “enlightened” wash the stupidity of the masses off their hands, proclaiming “I did not vote for those fools”. Ironic, that the very same elite who are among the most die-hard defenders of “democracy” and “free” elections would shrink away from accountability over the outcome of the very system they worship.
See the full article here:
http://www.getrealphilippines.com/agr-disagr/18-5-hangin.html
Same principle with this whole vacuous debate about The Verdict. Why bother with The System if we’re gonna be back on the streets dancing the ocho-ocho again in protest of whatever “justice” was delivered?
Pinoy nga naman talaga.
taga de cebu on Thu, 13th Sep 2007 12:16 pm
” i’m not “down under . . i’m in u.s. of a. then again, what do you care?bencard”
tama ka tol’…
ricelander on Thu, 13th Sep 2007 12:18 pm
Fine, what were the premises? What were the foundations? Did the conclusions proceed logically from those premises? Simple as that!
You say, there is such a thing as fallacious logic. We do not call them logical. We simply call them fallacy.
rego on Thu, 13th Sep 2007 12:20 pm
If inded there were pressure on Sandiganbayan, its the Erap camp who is more obvious in doing so…Did the people really extend Erap their “mercy”? Then why there is no people in the streets like what the Erap camp has been threatening. If EDSA 3 is really a genuine people power, why dont the gather again in EDSA now that their
“hero” is convicted?
taga de cebu on Thu, 13th Sep 2007 12:21 pm
“This is but another bout of this selective amnesia that Filipinos are world-renowned for. Benigno!”
How about your long bout of INFERIORITY COMPLEX.Can you do us a favor please?solve this first!
taga de cebu on Thu, 13th Sep 2007 12:23 pm
“there is such a thing as fallacious “logicâ€, is there not?Bencard”
It’s called OXYMORON in the U.S of A!
rego on Thu, 13th Sep 2007 12:24 pm
CVJ,
Of course I know about Chavit s immunity being the prosecutions start witness.
This only shows to me that thos who really evidence against Gloria can also do Chavit. That is if they really have it.
rego on Thu, 13th Sep 2007 12:26 pm
Bencard,
Pwede bnag i appeal yung verdict kay Erap ng Sandiganbayan sa SC?
pinoy on Thu, 13th Sep 2007 12:27 pm
Fallacious reasoning, isn’t it?
taga de cebu on Thu, 13th Sep 2007 12:31 pm
President Gloria Macapagal Arroyo on Thursday said the government is “required to comply” with its obligations in the controversial national broadband contract with Chinese firm ZTE Corp.
The contract, signed last April, has been hit by allegations of graft, with the country’s top election official accused of offering bribes to have the project approved. Chinese loans tied to the deal have also been criticized as adding to the government’s revenue woes.
“We must be a government that honors contracts and agreements that go through the required processes, despite media attacks. We must be a government that abides by what the courts of the land decide on matters of dispute,” Mrs Arroyo said in a speech delivered before the Bishops-Ulama Conference-Military-Police Forum.”
I can understand HER perspective.Abalos agrees 100% also.
Gloria remember:“I have sat at the sumptuous tables of power, but I have not run away with the silverware.â€
Diosdado Macapagal
pinoy on Thu, 13th Sep 2007 12:33 pm
Taga,
Gloria is running away with the table !
Anton on Thu, 13th Sep 2007 12:35 pm
beNIgno
Thanks for the link on the article. Hits the nail right on. To think, Erap was one of the senators then who voted the Anti Plunder Law into office. Now he cries, injustice! Ang pulitika talaga sa Pilipinas.
Just A Girl on Thu, 13th Sep 2007 12:37 pm
Did anybody ever heard of “THE EMPEROR’S NEW CLOTHES?” Philippine politics is spinning out of control. Please remove your blindfold before it’s too late..
taga de cebu on Thu, 13th Sep 2007 12:38 pm
PINOY :Sayang,I sincerely believe that her father was a good,decent man!
To inspire you:”Now I ask you to make your sacrifice. Take a gamble. I took the plunge and I’m glad of it.”
Gloria Macapagal Arroyo
taga de cebu on Thu, 13th Sep 2007 12:43 pm
“Did anybody ever hear of “THE EMPEROR’S NEW CLOTHES? just a girlâ€
YIKES!!! I dont want to see the Empress naked…!
DevilsAdvc8 on Thu, 13th Sep 2007 12:53 pm
taga, i thought the french kiss WAS down under. lol. maybe the aussie kiss IS down under while bent over? rofl.
“C’mon folks. Come 2010 elections, it will be either lacson, loren, mar or manny as president. Ganun talaga.”
frombelow, I bet you were one of those who voted for GMA just bec you thought Roco wasn’t winnable, and you didn’t want an FPJ presidency. it’s people like you who makes such defeatist attitudes self-fulfilling.
“Wag na lang tayo magsikap, tutal di naman tayo uunlad.”
As a result, di nga umunlad. Eh tanga eh.
Eh ano kung ganon talaga, di ka na lang ba aasa at maghahanap ng pagbabago? Maraming tulad mo. Di sumasali para baguhin ang sistema kaya ayun, di talaga mabago-bago. Ganun talaga eh. Mas marami ang tanga. Kaya ganun talaga, sumusuko na lang sila ng walang laban. At syempre, magkakatutoo ang sentimyento nila na wala na talagang pag-asa. Ayun. Dun na sila masaya na nagkatutoo ang paniniwala nila na wala nga talaga pag-asa. Syempre, tumulong sila para maging ganon eh. TANGA!!!!
Pero kahit ganon, di ako kelanman sasali sa kanila.
taga de cebu on Thu, 13th Sep 2007 1:17 pm
Devil 8 ADV:I also admire Jesse Robredo,a Ramon Magsaysay awardee.Heard his speech some years back in a graduation exercise in Katip..Too bad ,he is notwell known outside of Bicol.
BTW,on a more serious topic(lol):In Australia and New Zealand French Kissing is most commonly known as “pashing” or “lashing”. This term is expected to have originated from the word ‘passion’, so as to kiss passionately, is to “pash”.
talabisbis on Thu, 13th Sep 2007 1:18 pm
List of Presidents of the Philippines in the “Gallery of Presidentsâ€in Malacanang Palace
1)Emilio Aguinaldo
2)Manuel l.Quezon
3)Jose P.Laurel
4)Sergio Osmena
5)Manuel Roxas
6)Elpidio Quirino
7)Ramon Magsaysay
8)Carlos Garcia
9)Diosdado Macapagal
10)Ferdinand Marcos
11)Corazon Aquino
12)Fidel Ramos
13)Joseph Estrada
14)Gloria Macapagal Arroyo
My nominees for the Presidential Rogues Gallery:
1)Ferdinand Marcos(died in exile)
2)Joseph Estrada(convicted)
any other suggestions(lol)
taga cebu..
shoudn’t Gloria be 14a…
FPJ is the 14th, i believe… ehehehe
Jeg on Thu, 13th Sep 2007 1:34 pm
Speaking of elections, here’s something I found regarding the US system, which could probably also apply here even though we have a multi-party system. (I use ‘party’ loosely.) It’s called ‘Why Your Vote Will Never Matter.’
It’s here: http://www.counterpunch.org/rothenberg08202007.html
Arbet on Thu, 13th Sep 2007 2:03 pm
Anton, history: what triggered EDSA 2? A decision was made by an institution, and what did they do? Simple as that.
mlq3 on Thu, 13th Sep 2007 2:05 pm
rego, may point ka. yan ang isang dahilan kung bakit nag fizzle out ang people power against gma (besides yung kaliwa at yung erap forces dismaying the middle). yung ibang may ebidensya kay gma natakot lumantad ng husto.
Anton on Thu, 13th Sep 2007 2:21 pm
Arbet
I see now what you’re saying. guess in the end, sad to say, institutions are made of human beings too.
Unfortunately, we may not be able to find the Philippine version of Messiah in our lifetime. Joining Philippine politics is really a moral hazard problem. Only the people who have evil intentions (not all mind you) join Philippine politics. The good ones will never join.
BrianB on Thu, 13th Sep 2007 2:58 pm
“Unfortunately, we may not be able to find the Philippine version of Messiah in our lifetime. Joining Philippine politics is really a moral hazard problem. Only the people who have evil intentions (not all mind you) join Philippine politics. The good ones will never join.”
We should be practically about our politicians and idealistic about ourselves. Strengthen the checks and balances, the people’s input need to be louder and have inherrent political effect. Our main enemy is mental fatigue. Many of us just don’t want to be worrying about politics and politicians all the time. We’re not used to the kind of mental strain being a democracy requires. Then, there are the moral blackmail that hypocrites in politics are so fond of throwing around: hwag nyo daw silang husgahan, kailangan daw due process. The people doesn’t need due process to kick an official out of office, in the same sense that a boss doesn’t need due process to fire an incompetent employee.
manuelbuencamino on Thu, 13th Sep 2007 3:04 pm
The question is whether the public believes justice was rendered.
If the public agrees with the sandigan verdict then the case and Erap is history.
if the public did not buy the verdict, then what the Gloria and the country gain by erap’s prosecution and conviction?
BrianB on Thu, 13th Sep 2007 3:06 pm
“Goliath has fallen, and the Estrada Case is only the beginning of a much heated ousting of a leader. Erap was found Guilty as expected and as common sense dictates. The next chapter is Gloria’s turn to caress the cold steel bars with her hubby with much help from most of the Opposition Senators.”
And wouldn’t it be great that another good would come out of another good? Not because of well-meaning politicians but because of the very pinoy and very politico quid pro quo. If this happens, will this be the first time the opposition will have done its job, peaceably?
BrianB on Thu, 13th Sep 2007 3:11 pm
“The question is whether the public believes justice was rendered.
If the public agrees with the sandigan verdict then the case and Erap is history.”
Maybe media can make up the public’s mind for itself, like it always presumes it can.
Beancurd on Thu, 13th Sep 2007 3:27 pm
I must agree with Bencard’s rule of law and due process logic because I think he would also agree with me that the continued incarceration of Nobel Peace Prize winner Aung Sang Su Kyi of Burma is also the triupmh of the rule of law just as the Tiananmen Massacre was also a triumph of the law. Thank you for the unassailable legal logic. I remember what I heard before regarding Marcos that since he is the dictator, he is the law. Maybe that is why Bencard, the promoter of the rule of law doctrine, fled to the U.S. of A — he did not want to be the subject of the rule of law according to Marcos.
As for you MLQ3 saying “besides yung kaliwa at yung erap forces dismaying the middle,” well that is a very good excuse that played right into the script of Gloria. Well, that was very disappointing also on the part of the middle. You have a huge boulder in the middle of the road that you need to move over the cliff in order to move on and you have the left and erap as the only tools that you have in order to be able to shove it aside but you would not use them because they dismay you? Some egos must be more important than … well what can I say?
Francis on Thu, 13th Sep 2007 3:32 pm
Ecclesiastes 3:1: World English Bible
For everything there is a season, and a time for every purpose under heaven:
GMA’s time is nearly up, 2010 is nearly hear. Without any viable candidate from her coaliton, divine retribution will exact its heavy toll. Let the wheel of justice roll on. Erap may well as well be guilty as charged, but the constitutional process was never followed to begin with, Speaker VIllar railroaded the impeachment process, the prosecutors walked out of the impeachment trial, the AFP High Command committed grave treason by “withdrawal of support”, the 4 ways to remove a sitting President wasn’t followed. Where in it does it contain the words “constructively resigned”?
Erap had the numbers in the Senate to acquit him, wether we like it or not it was for the good of the nation, The Constitution was recklessly trampled upon. Sorry Manolo, but Allan Paguia hit it on the money. The arguements he raised with the SC ( that eventually got him is license to practice law suspended ) was really brave of him, because he believed in the process, which the sitting and illegal regime, whichever way the SC spins and make a mockery of the laws of the land and of the Constitution, has shamelessly weaken and set the precedent of ousting of a President duly elected by the people just by a simple withdrawal of support.
Again, their time will come. Barring any last ditch manipulation ( which can never be discounted up until the very last moment knowing by this admin )
I just hope that she and her evil cohorts do not flee the land and trust the justice system that they have so assiduously been saying to the people. Let’s see they invoke EO 464 again.
Beancurd on Thu, 13th Sep 2007 3:43 pm
What is that talk of justice? If anything the erap trial and verdict were exemplars of injustice that indict the criminal justice system in this country. And I thought that aside from death and taxes, conviction of a crime and the the resultant incarceration are the next great equalizers. Might as well make convicts pay according to what they can afford if they cannot be put to the same stinking jail that the faceless person living in the streets will certainly be put in (or maybe let them pay for the services of persons who will clean the jail if they want to be put inside a clean 4×4 cell).
manuelbuencamino on Thu, 13th Sep 2007 3:51 pm
BrianB,
“Maybe media can make up the public’s mind for itself, like it always presumes it can.”
This is one case where I think the media can only do so much. Surveys will be done on the public’s reaction to the verdict and media will report it but other than a show of numbers. the unconvinced will remain unconvinced and so too will the convinced.
The erap case was handled sloppily in court and more importantly in the court of public opinion.
Erap succeeded in portraying himself as an underdog and that’s where the government’s ship floundered.
It’s not anymore about what the court said. it’s what the people believe.
Was justice served or not?
Erap’s conviction should have put that question to rest. But it did not.
mlq3 on Thu, 13th Sep 2007 5:01 pm
beancurd, on a minor point of self-defense, i participated in efforts that brought together left, right, and middle pro and anti edsa dos groups, to oppose the president. but among the many reasons those efforts failed, was the presence of estrada forces and the left in people power efforts, a reality we have to acknowledge. a significant number couldn’t get past seeing edsa 1, edsa dos, and edsa tres leaders arm-in-arm.
taga de cebu on Thu, 13th Sep 2007 5:12 pm
“shoudn’t Gloria be 14a…
FPJ is the 14th, i believe… ehehehe.talabisbis”
Seriously,Garci made sure that FPJ would not be the 14th president…The law of KARMA will be felt by Garci and his powerful phonepal one day…that’s for sure.
BrianB on Thu, 13th Sep 2007 5:43 pm
“I must agree with Bencard’s rule of law and due process logic because I think he would also agree with me that the continued incarceration of Nobel Peace Prize winner Aung Sang Su Kyi of Burma is also the triupmh of the rule of law just as the Tiananmen Massacre was also a triumph of the law. Thank you for the unassailable legal logic.”
I’m reminded of what priests used to say when they don’t agree with the law: it may be legal, but it doesn’t mean it’s moral. I think Burma’s and China’s failing is in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, which most countries in the globe have signed. Manolo can give a link to this (me being presumptious).
BrianB on Thu, 13th Sep 2007 5:43 pm
“I must agree with Bencard’s rule of law and due process logic because I think he would also agree with me that the continued incarceration of Nobel Peace Prize winner Aung Sang Su Kyi of Burma is also the triupmh of the rule of law just as the Tiananmen Massacre was also a triumph of the law. Thank you for the unassailable legal logic.”
I’m reminded of what priests used to say when they don’t agree with the law: it may be legal, but it doesn’t mean it’s moral. I think Burma’s and China’s failing is in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, which most countries in the globe have signed. Manolo can give a link to this (me being presumptuous).
BrianB on Thu, 13th Sep 2007 5:44 pm
MLQ3, sorry for the double posting, misspelle presumptuous on the first one, saw it too late.
Bencard on Thu, 13th Sep 2007 8:02 pm
beancurd, never mind burma and china. bad or unreasonable laws are declared void in our legal system. that’s why part of e.o. 464 & 1017, among others, have been pronounced invalid. you, see we have a reasonable constitution upon which any governmental action must conform.
brianb is right. while human concept of “morality” plays a major part in making and enforcing laws, who is presumptuous enough to be a moral” arbiter – a priest, the whole clergy, the b& w movement, the npa? you? marcosian law, or the bad part of it, lingered a while but not for long. whether or not it was changed for the better is a question of what kind of a people we are.
in any event, the law and its processes do not become bad just because you don’t agree with their result.
Bencard on Thu, 13th Sep 2007 8:21 pm
rego, yes. i think the sandigangbayan’s verdict is appealable, as a matter of right, due to the gravity of the offense, which should ave meted out a penalty of death were it not for gma’s abolition of the death penalty.
Bencard on Thu, 13th Sep 2007 8:52 pm
btw, beancurd, mwb, are you guys saying that it was an “injustice” to convict erap, following all rules of due process and with protection by the best legal minds money could buy, not to mention the “masa political pressure”) for stealing gargantuan amounts using the office of the presidency? i cannot believe anyone (apparenty sane) could call that unjust.
justice in waiting on Thu, 13th Sep 2007 9:21 pm
Verdict on erap maybe just, but it is still perceived as “unjust” because it was handed down under the administration of the President who is alleged to have use extra-constitutional means of taking power from the convicted deposed President, which had she not been successful could have been put on Trial for High Treason. To some or Most of the Pilipino Masses it was a conviction under Duress, perceived or reality…
rego on Fri, 14th Sep 2007 1:58 am
inodoro ni emilie :
i want jocjoc’s head on the platter, too. pronto!
——————–
How about Yolanda Ricaforte, Jaime Dichaves, Alma Alfaro, Eleuterio Tan and Delia Rajas And oh there is Michael Ray Aquino and Mancao too who killed Bobby Dacer and his driver during the Erap Impeachment on order of somenoe I sure you know very well. .
I dont know how you do it. Open one eye so wide and totally sealed the other……..
inodoro ni emilie on Fri, 14th Sep 2007 8:13 am
How about Yolanda Ricaforte, Jaime Dichaves, Alma Alfaro, Eleuterio Tan and Delia Rajas And oh there is Michael Ray Aquino and Mancao too who killed Bobby Dacer and his driver during the Erap Impeachment on order of somenoe I sure you know very well. .
rego, oh sure. get them all. then we’ll have a sumptious feast. hurry, am hungry.
inodoro ni emilie on Fri, 14th Sep 2007 8:16 am
“Open one eye so wide and totally sealed the other……”
i am not rego, i am not. the government had the means to run after jocjoc, a rotarian who abides by the 4-way truth test. let’s level the playing field here. by all means, let’s hurl in all the scalawags. but first let’s begin with the big fishes. those you mentioned are supporting roles.
inodoro ni emilie on Fri, 14th Sep 2007 8:17 am
anchovies kung baga. appetizers are easily digested. let’s go for the main course.
Beancurd on Fri, 14th Sep 2007 2:12 pm
Bencard,
Last time I looked, laws are declared invalid or void in this country not because they are bad but because they are, based on the viewpoint of the justices, contrary to the provisions of the fundamental law.
And why not mind buram and china? Is is because they are best argument against the rule of law? Because the rule of law is only as good as the law giver as much as it is dependent on the executioner?
On “injustice” for the conviction of erap, you may want to read my post again. It was not about erap, it was about the country under your president.
the bystander on Fri, 14th Sep 2007 7:51 pm
“yan ang isang dahilan kung bakit nag fizzle out ang people power against gma (besides yung kaliwa at yung erap forces dismaying the middle). –mlq3″
–this only shows how some of the members of the so-called “middle class” think highly of themselves as if the success of any political undertaking depends on their participation or non-participation. where were they during the martial law years? either they licked the ass of marcos just to please him or they scampered for safety abroad out of fear. in the meantime, the above-ground and underground Left were mainly the ones who resisted the dictator’s regime until a few years before Edsa 1.
it’s high time that we expose and disprove this myth about the “political importance” of the middle class. they’re nothing but opportunists who take the limelight away after the smoke has gone down.
Bencard on Sat, 15th Sep 2007 6:49 am
i think it was the left who tried to grab full credit for edsa 2 and put its people in high places of the government they despise. failing in that, it bowed not to rest until gma was toppled, forging a modus vivinde with the disgruntled estrada flotsams, and the run-of-the-mill opportunists from here, there and everywhere. that’s why they had eggs on their faces each time they try for power grab.
DevilsAdvc8 on Sat, 15th Sep 2007 12:00 pm
bystander, contrary to your opinion, this is not a myth. the middle class is the bridge that links the elites to the masses. without this connection, we might as well have the Bastille right now.
do not believe it? watch as the middle class disappear as they all leave for abroad.
mlq3 on Sat, 15th Sep 2007 12:07 pm
devils, what’s interesting to me, since i have a theory that the old middle class, patterned after the old upper class, is leaving our shores like the elves leaving middle earth, while a new middle class, straight from the ranks of the masses, is being formed, and it has very much less in common with the upper class than at any other time in our history.
DevilsAdvc8 on Sat, 15th Sep 2007 12:56 pm
MLQ3, yes, there is a new middle class being formed. it remains to be seen whether they will be the same as the old middle class, or will be different.
they have to realize at least, that if they don’t fight for their own Philippines, they might as well leave for good.
And since this new middle class will be larger than the old one, its power will be formidable.
formidable enough to destroy the old elites and put themselves in power. with the old elites gone, they have to concentrate in making the old concept of being an elite, gone for good.
mlq3 on Sat, 15th Sep 2007 1:51 pm
devils, my own belief is elites are inevitable, in any organization, in any circumstance, in any field of human activity, regardless of ideology. so, the question is whether it will be a meritocracy, an aristocracy, or degrees in between (earned or inherited). what i’m interested in is widening the opportunities for social mobility.
the bystander on Sat, 15th Sep 2007 3:48 pm
“the middle class is the bridge that links the elites to the masses. without this connection, we might as well have the Bastille right now.
do not believe it? watch as the middle class disappear as they all leave for abroad. –DevilsAdvc8″
–no, i don’t. that may have been true during the Spanish era or probably 40 years ago but not at the present time. except for those living in imperial manila or maybe cebu, the distinction between the so-called middle class and the masses has been blurred by the same economic hardships suffered by both these two “groups”. in other words, the economic gap between the two has narrowed, such that the middle class nowadays no longer have that altruistic motive of “leading the masses” or “bridging the gap” between the elites and the poor. Those who identify themselves with the middle class have become more individualistic and selfish, thus making themselves less critical of the powers that be.
the bystander on Sat, 15th Sep 2007 4:09 pm
just to straighten out twisted facts, gloria macapal arrovo never put leaders of the Left (both the affirmists and rejectionists) in high places in government after Edsa 2. in fact, the bogus president never bothered to implement the “reforms” desired by the Left after helping her become “president” in 2001. instead, she with her murderous generals preoccupied themselves assasinating one activist after another.
cvj on Sat, 15th Sep 2007 5:01 pm
Bystander, the obliviousness of the middle class to the plight of the masses is not unique to the Philippine middle class. The middle classes of India and China have been observed to exhibit similar callous behavior. It’s a consequence of the belief (encouraged by the ideology of globalization that has superseded the ideology of the welfare state) that the poor have only themselves to blame for their own poverty. Any charity (via GK locally or Bill Gates’ foundations abroad) is seen as coming from the goodness of the charity givers’ hearts which in turn encourages more self-righteousness and sense of entitlement.
DevilsAdvc8 on Sat, 15th Sep 2007 10:29 pm
Manolo, I am aware of that, and I have no illusions that perfect equality between men can ever be achieved. What I am pointing out is destroying a kind of old elites (the landed aristocracy) that a new middle class might achieve. As we all know, men just move up (or down) social classes. You pointed out widening opportunities for social mobility. And how?
What my hope is, that we can erase old notions of elitism or ideas of it as it stands today. You can be filthy rich and still connect with the less fortunate, you know.
I can’t explain it really well, except that there’s a faint idea in me somehow, that social class lines might be blurred just enough so that the gap won’t be so glaring as it is today.
Cvj, perhaps the middle class is not really oblivious to the plight of the poor. They only force themselves to look away. Men are not evil by nature. Even the most evil has a heart. To say the middle class are not moved by the poor is not right. As you have pointed out, the main reason the well-to-do (and the somehow OK) refuses to help the poor is that they believe in the school of thought that charity promotes mendicancy. I believe in that as well.
Another reason the middle class doesn’t help the poor is they themselves are probably busy working to keep them and their family remain middle class! Just a bit more of selfishness to keep their heads above water. There is anger in this 2nd grp of people. Kung ako nga nagpapakahirap maghanapbuhay para lang kumita, ba’t kayo di rin gawin yon?
But the idea that the poor only have themselves to blame for their poverty is wrong. Any schmoe who says that should try being born as one. And then let them find out the range of opportunities a poor person can get to lift themselves out of poverty, and still shout that ideology. You know, sometimes, the poor are only poor bec of fate.
Consider: if you are born dirt poor, you have less chances at education. Less chances of acquiring employable skills. Less chancing at knowing the right people to help you. Less chances at everything! And to compound that, if you are born poor, you’re automatically gifted with a whole set of environment conducive to keeping you poor! Exploitation at every turn bec you are ignorant, bad influences everywhere, allure of crime just around the corner. Should I continue? All it takes is a little imagination, and a little common sense to know that not all poor people have only themselves to blame for their poverty. There are some of them who do only have themselves to blame, but not everyone.
And we should be interested in helping these people. You know, GK has started a different kind of charity. It’s a charity that isn’t one way. For the charity workers to help them, the poor has to agree to help themselves. Not a free lunch, but a helping hand. It isn’t a quick buck. An effortless acting pitiable, and then some coin, but a real effort to give opportunities.
Yes. The key to “social mobility” is not really to flood the poor with money. Money can only get them so far. The key is to help open up opportunities for them. With opportunities, they themselves can do the work and lift themselves out of poverty. Sometimes I think charity should be more about giving one’s time and abilities rather than just a guilt-absolving trip of money giving. What if there’s a foundation that doesn’t accept cash, and only accepts those who are willing to part with a little of their time, and expertise? An NGO that is pure volunteer work. An NGO that facilitates volunteership. Welcomes anyone wanting to help, and identifies where these people can help the most, and then teach these people how. What I’m envisioning is an organization that is like just being middle-men for buyers and sellers. A well-to-do individual wants to help. He goes to this organization and signifies his intention to do so. He is not asked for cash. He is asked for his schedule. He is not asked for a check. He is asked for his skills and expertise. Perhaps the individual says he is a banker, or perhaps a businessman. He is then asked how long he intends to offer his help. Perhaps the man was just taken by a flight of fancy and says he’d just like to try it out for a few days. His schedule is taken and matched to a database. Somewhere near his area, a benificiary group is in need of his skills and expertise. This group have just finished classes equivalent to that of HS (also given by volunteer teachers) and are wanting to learn abt business. Perfect match. If the man decides to continue with his volunteer work, then its just another convert for this organization. If not, then the organization has set-up a system covering the relief of temporary volunteers with permanent ones.
What we have is a one-stop-shop charity arbiter. Welfare is so outdated. And foundations who bank on them equally so.
cvj on Sat, 15th Sep 2007 11:49 pm
Devils, from what i have read above as well as in your previous posts, i believe you have the right instincts to be a good economist (in the classical sense) or at least a social reformer.
As for elitism, i believe the very concept itself is incompatible with the way modern society is organized (i.e. functionally differentiated, and not hierarchical as it was in pre-modern times). Modern society cannot survive without specialists and it sorely lacks good generalists, but it can do well without elitists, especially the self-identified ones.
DevilsAdvc8 on Wed, 19th Sep 2007 4:16 pm
“Devils, from what i have read above as well as in your previous posts, i believe you have the right instincts to be a good economistâ€
aw shucks, cvj. and i was plannin’ to study how to be a wall street hippie..
“in the classical senseâ€
is that good or bad? or ambivalent?
“or at least a social reformerâ€
except when you encounter my hyde pro-revolution character
isn’t it? i took the test as well, cvj. was on the dot as you. a left leaning liberal somewhere bet Gandhi and that other guy. I’d prefer to be called a socialist democrat except I dnt know what the hell that means. My personal motto is: decide with reason, act with conviction. And yet I show my schizophrenia by not hewing to Ayn Rand’s objectivist theory fanatically. (as my “the poor isn’t the sole reason to blame for their own poverty†rant shows) My bipolar political views shows even more when a part of me somehow agrees with the likes of Benigno, Bencard, and Rego (all objectivist fanatics, it would appear). And I only somehow retain my “sanity†in the views of the liberal majority, by showing that I value my heart more
than my mind. Perhaps reason should be tempered with
compassion in order not to go down that road of madness and egomaniacal tendencies, eh?
But of course, if one were reasonable enough, one should’ve understood that dispensing with ethics and adhering only to legalistic and objectivist views, would only lead to more anarchy, not less of it.
Ah hell, what do I know? Am just a budding political commenter who’s just learning to view the world through other’s theories. Duh. And all along I thought my ideas were original.. gaah. lol.
—
Specialists are different from elitists. Sure, they maybe the elite in their field, but if they don’t think so highly of themselves, and remain down-to-earth, they can hardly be elitists don’t u think? jz ur regular ’spert on their chosen field.It’s the self-proclaimed elitism I’m railing abt. The elitism that enslaves. People striving for excellence can do so without all that shit abt being better than anyone else. Sure – in the natural course of events, hierarchy would develop so that everyone can determine their pay grade. But can we do it in a way nice? Ah well, there goes my bleeding liberal heart bein’ exposed and all. Perhaps, in the near future Jekkyl would take over, when bouts of hopelessness envelop me again. Until then, keep ur nice impression of me, won’t you cvj?
ay_naku on Thu, 20th Sep 2007 5:05 pm
Actually such damning evidence has already been shouted out, and the great majority has already concluded that GMA is indeed damn guilty of cheating, lying, and stealing. Others have just chosen to condone it, look the other way, or just give up trying to make GMA accountable. Pero may mga mang-ilan-ilan pa din na patuloy na nagtatanga-tangahan at nagbubulag-bulagan. Damning evidence are already staring them in the face and they still continue to go, “Huh? What evidence?” At this point, these GMA die-hards are pretty much hopeless, they’ll only see what they wanna see and disregard evrything else.
ormocanon on Fri, 21st Sep 2007 8:25 am
Here’s a fitting epitaph on Erap’s gravestone when the time comes:
“He got caught with his hands inside the cookie jar…”