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	<title>Comments on: Marcos in retrospect</title>
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	<link>http://www.quezon.ph/2007/02/21/marcos-in-retrospect/</link>
	<description>Punditry. Politics. History. Commentary.</description>
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		<title>By: Jeg</title>
		<link>http://www.quezon.ph/2007/02/21/marcos-in-retrospect/comment-page-1/#comment-432539</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Feb 2007 02:45:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.quezon.ph/?p=1162#comment-432539</guid>
		<description>cvj: &lt;i&gt;You think so? But how does that fit in with LaurelÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s statement that Ã¢â‚¬Å“The people cannot be governors and governed at the same time.Ã¢â‚¬Â &lt;/i&gt;

Nah. That was just me trying to inject my thoughts into President Laurel&#039;s brain. Maybe when he said &#039;aristocracy&#039; that&#039;s exactly what he meant. :-D</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>cvj: <i>You think so? But how does that fit in with LaurelÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s statement that Ã¢â‚¬Å“The people cannot be governors and governed at the same time.Ã¢â‚¬Â </i></p>
<p>Nah. That was just me trying to inject my thoughts into President Laurel&#8217;s brain. Maybe when he said &#8216;aristocracy&#8217; that&#8217;s exactly what he meant. <img src='http://www.quezon.ph/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_biggrin.gif' alt=':-D' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: cvj</title>
		<link>http://www.quezon.ph/2007/02/21/marcos-in-retrospect/comment-page-1/#comment-431231</link>
		<dc:creator>cvj</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 Feb 2007 18:44:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.quezon.ph/?p=1162#comment-431231</guid>
		<description>UPn Student, i&#039;ll leave you to recommend the amount since you&#039;re the one who considers the above as a &#039;better strategy&#039;.  Personally, i believe it&#039;s more important to avoid war so as to eliminate collateral damage in the first place.

On the SuperFerry bombing, I don&#039;t think there was an outcry because the Arroyo government did not reveal that it was a terrorist attack until several months after the event.  Definitely assistance should have been provided to the victims.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>UPn Student, i&#8217;ll leave you to recommend the amount since you&#8217;re the one who considers the above as a &#8216;better strategy&#8217;.  Personally, i believe it&#8217;s more important to avoid war so as to eliminate collateral damage in the first place.</p>
<p>On the SuperFerry bombing, I don&#8217;t think there was an outcry because the Arroyo government did not reveal that it was a terrorist attack until several months after the event.  Definitely assistance should have been provided to the victims.</p>
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		<title>By: UPn student</title>
		<link>http://www.quezon.ph/2007/02/21/marcos-in-retrospect/comment-page-1/#comment-431225</link>
		<dc:creator>UPn student</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 Feb 2007 18:32:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.quezon.ph/?p=1162#comment-431225</guid>
		<description>cvj... I know that the Philippine government has no formal policy on how much to determine when to pay and what is reasonable compensation when civilians are killed while the Philippine military was involved in a military skirmish with the rebels.  You should document your proposal and then send it to Enrile and Trillanes so they can reword the proposal into a bill, then work for the bill to become law.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>cvj&#8230; I know that the Philippine government has no formal policy on how much to determine when to pay and what is reasonable compensation when civilians are killed while the Philippine military was involved in a military skirmish with the rebels.  You should document your proposal and then send it to Enrile and Trillanes so they can reword the proposal into a bill, then work for the bill to become law.</p>
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		<title>By: UPn student</title>
		<link>http://www.quezon.ph/2007/02/21/marcos-in-retrospect/comment-page-1/#comment-431221</link>
		<dc:creator>UPn student</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 Feb 2007 18:16:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.quezon.ph/?p=1162#comment-431221</guid>
		<description>I did not make up the P50K number, it is from the from Major General Mohamad Benjamin Dolorfino experience.  And the P50K was for a combatant, so should the number imputed to a civilian be higher or lower?   

On the same topic, was there any outcry from anyone to at minimum provide financial aid to the immediate family of those who perished from the SuperFerry14 terrorist attack? I do recall that there was assistance provided to the immediately family of those who perished from the Wowowee stampede.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I did not make up the P50K number, it is from the from Major General Mohamad Benjamin Dolorfino experience.  And the P50K was for a combatant, so should the number imputed to a civilian be higher or lower?   </p>
<p>On the same topic, was there any outcry from anyone to at minimum provide financial aid to the immediate family of those who perished from the SuperFerry14 terrorist attack? I do recall that there was assistance provided to the immediately family of those who perished from the Wowowee stampede.</p>
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		<title>By: cvj</title>
		<link>http://www.quezon.ph/2007/02/21/marcos-in-retrospect/comment-page-1/#comment-431202</link>
		<dc:creator>cvj</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 Feb 2007 17:36:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.quezon.ph/?p=1162#comment-431202</guid>
		<description>UPn Student, you previously commented that the worth of a human life is 50 &lt;i&gt;million&lt;/i&gt; pesos (courtesy of the law against plunder).  Now you&#039;re proposing compensation of 50 &lt;i&gt;thousand&lt;/i&gt; pesos for those killed in a cross-fire.  That&#039;s quite a drop.  Is there a sale or do you value different  Filipino lives differently? If the latter, what&#039;s your criteria for assigning the different values?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>UPn Student, you previously commented that the worth of a human life is 50 <i>million</i> pesos (courtesy of the law against plunder).  Now you&#8217;re proposing compensation of 50 <i>thousand</i> pesos for those killed in a cross-fire.  That&#8217;s quite a drop.  Is there a sale or do you value different  Filipino lives differently? If the latter, what&#8217;s your criteria for assigning the different values?</p>
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		<title>By: UPn student</title>
		<link>http://www.quezon.ph/2007/02/21/marcos-in-retrospect/comment-page-1/#comment-431016</link>
		<dc:creator>UPn student</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 Feb 2007 13:41:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.quezon.ph/?p=1162#comment-431016</guid>
		<description>The better strategy seems to be from Major General Mohamad Benjamin Dolorfino --- the government should pay P50,000 per armed rebel that is killed.

But then again, Major General Mohamad Benjamin Dolorfino himself is wrong. The P50,000-per should NOT be for the enemy, but for for the innocent civilian who is killed.  But this will require changes in the curriculum at Baguio-PMA since P50,000 per civilian &quot;..killed in crossfire&quot; is cheaper than P500,000-per-day stipulation in the Anti-Terror Bill.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The better strategy seems to be from Major General Mohamad Benjamin Dolorfino &#8212; the government should pay P50,000 per armed rebel that is killed.</p>
<p>But then again, Major General Mohamad Benjamin Dolorfino himself is wrong. The P50,000-per should NOT be for the enemy, but for for the innocent civilian who is killed.  But this will require changes in the curriculum at Baguio-PMA since P50,000 per civilian &#8220;..killed in crossfire&#8221; is cheaper than P500,000-per-day stipulation in the Anti-Terror Bill.</p>
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		<title>By: cvj</title>
		<link>http://www.quezon.ph/2007/02/21/marcos-in-retrospect/comment-page-1/#comment-430848</link>
		<dc:creator>cvj</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 Feb 2007 07:19:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.quezon.ph/?p=1162#comment-430848</guid>
		<description>benj, UPn Student, given your statements above, would you then be in agreement with what Palparan said (as quoted in the Melo report)?

&lt;i&gt;Ã¢â‚¬Å“My order to my soldiers is that, if they are certain that there are armed rebels in the house or yard, shoot them. It will just be too bad if civilians are killed in the process. We are sorry if you are killed in the crossfire.Ã¢â‚¬Â

Ã¢â‚¬Å“There would be some collateral damage, but it will be short and tolerable. The enemy would blow it up as a massive violation of human rights. But to me, it would just be necessary incidents.Ã¢â‚¬Â

Ã¢â‚¬Å“Sorry na lang kung may madamay na civilian. The deaths of civilians and local officials were Ã¢â‚¬Ëœsmall sacrificesÃ¢â‚¬â„¢ brought about by the militaryÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s anti-insurgency campaign.Ã¢â‚¬Â&lt;/i&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>benj, UPn Student, given your statements above, would you then be in agreement with what Palparan said (as quoted in the Melo report)?</p>
<p><i>Ã¢â‚¬Å“My order to my soldiers is that, if they are certain that there are armed rebels in the house or yard, shoot them. It will just be too bad if civilians are killed in the process. We are sorry if you are killed in the crossfire.Ã¢â‚¬Â</p>
<p>Ã¢â‚¬Å“There would be some collateral damage, but it will be short and tolerable. The enemy would blow it up as a massive violation of human rights. But to me, it would just be necessary incidents.Ã¢â‚¬Â</p>
<p>Ã¢â‚¬Å“Sorry na lang kung may madamay na civilian. The deaths of civilians and local officials were Ã¢â‚¬Ëœsmall sacrificesÃ¢â‚¬â„¢ brought about by the militaryÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s anti-insurgency campaign.Ã¢â‚¬Â</i></p>
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		<title>By: UPn student</title>
		<link>http://www.quezon.ph/2007/02/21/marcos-in-retrospect/comment-page-1/#comment-430568</link>
		<dc:creator>UPn student</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 Feb 2007 00:04:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.quezon.ph/?p=1162#comment-430568</guid>
		<description>cvj...  on deaths from military operations  (be they collateral damage or the combatants)... responsibility lies first, with the immediate family of the dead, and then it is the StateÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s responsibility.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>cvj&#8230;  on deaths from military operations  (be they collateral damage or the combatants)&#8230; responsibility lies first, with the immediate family of the dead, and then it is the StateÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s responsibility.</p>
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		<title>By: benj</title>
		<link>http://www.quezon.ph/2007/02/21/marcos-in-retrospect/comment-page-1/#comment-430474</link>
		<dc:creator>benj</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Feb 2007 21:18:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.quezon.ph/?p=1162#comment-430474</guid>
		<description>as cold as it sounds, I think certain people really need to go to streamline the system. If we don&#039;t need to run over the blocks, we might as well eliminate them before they manage to pile up on our future path.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>as cold as it sounds, I think certain people really need to go to streamline the system. If we don&#8217;t need to run over the blocks, we might as well eliminate them before they manage to pile up on our future path.</p>
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		<title>By: cvj</title>
		<link>http://www.quezon.ph/2007/02/21/marcos-in-retrospect/comment-page-1/#comment-430465</link>
		<dc:creator>cvj</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Feb 2007 20:45:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.quezon.ph/?p=1162#comment-430465</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;I see it more as a tension between direct democracy and representative democracy...As a libertarian, IÃ¢â‚¬â„¢d much prefer direct democracy, but...I see representative democracy as a necessary evil - Jeg &lt;/blockquote&gt;

Your line of thinking is more or less what the United States&#039; founding fathers went through.  Since the earliest model of democracy from Greece was of the &lt;i&gt;direct&lt;/i&gt; variety, they felt the need to innovate and come up with the &lt;i&gt;representative&lt;/i&gt; variant that would scale up to suit the needs of the then 13 colonies turned states.  (Also, a number of the Founding Fathers, like James Madison feared the consequences of direct democracy.)  Since then, the representative model of democracy has proven successful to the extent that people equate &lt;i&gt;representative democracy&lt;/i&gt; with democracy itself, and are unaware that there is such a thing as &lt;i&gt;direct democracy&lt;/i&gt;.

&lt;blockquote&gt;What president Laurel was afraid of I gather is not genuine direct democracy, but a fake representative democracy run by an amoral and unintellectual aristocracyÃ¢â‚¬â€œwhat we have now.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

You think so? But how does that fit in with Laurel&#039;s statement that &quot;&lt;i&gt;The people cannot be governors and governed at the same time.&lt;/i&gt;&quot;  Sounds to me that he was trying to set apart the common people from those who govern, i.e. the &lt;i&gt;moral and intellectual aristocracy&lt;/i&gt; .  I also suspect that &#039;amorality&#039; was *not* his focus since this was not yet a problem in 1943 when the Third Republic under the Japanese was inaugurated.  The widespread moral degradation was yet to come the at tail-end of the Japanese occupation.

&lt;blockquote&gt;A moral and intellectual aristocracy is needed to thwart them, which is why I think the challenges Abe Margallo outlined are worth meeting, else weÃ¢â‚¬â„¢re stuck with the aristocracy we have now.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

It would be good if we can do that, but we should not stop there.  I think that the concept of a &lt;i&gt;representative democracy&lt;/i&gt; is reaching its limits.  We should develop the elements of &lt;i&gt;direct democracy&lt;/i&gt; which will help us get closer to the democratic ideal of the &lt;i&gt;rule of all by all&lt;/i&gt;. For a start, this means direct engagement of ordinary citizens in the public sphere as individuals or members of NGO&#039;s.  This also means more frequent plebiscites, allowing for mass actions which includes the possibility of People Power.  Fortunately, all of these are, to varying extents, compatible with the Filipino psyche.
 
UPn Student, i think it is understood that the dead that you mention in the Superferry bombings are victims of a terrorist act, and are not collateral damage.  Collateral damage are the civilians who are caught in the crossfire of the government&#039;s war.  Who is going to be responsible for this group of people?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>I see it more as a tension between direct democracy and representative democracy&#8230;As a libertarian, IÃ¢â‚¬â„¢d much prefer direct democracy, but&#8230;I see representative democracy as a necessary evil &#8211; Jeg </p></blockquote>
<p>Your line of thinking is more or less what the United States&#8217; founding fathers went through.  Since the earliest model of democracy from Greece was of the <i>direct</i> variety, they felt the need to innovate and come up with the <i>representative</i> variant that would scale up to suit the needs of the then 13 colonies turned states.  (Also, a number of the Founding Fathers, like James Madison feared the consequences of direct democracy.)  Since then, the representative model of democracy has proven successful to the extent that people equate <i>representative democracy</i> with democracy itself, and are unaware that there is such a thing as <i>direct democracy</i>.</p>
<blockquote><p>What president Laurel was afraid of I gather is not genuine direct democracy, but a fake representative democracy run by an amoral and unintellectual aristocracyÃ¢â‚¬â€œwhat we have now.</p></blockquote>
<p>You think so? But how does that fit in with Laurel&#8217;s statement that &#8220;<i>The people cannot be governors and governed at the same time.</i>&#8221;  Sounds to me that he was trying to set apart the common people from those who govern, i.e. the <i>moral and intellectual aristocracy</i> .  I also suspect that &#8216;amorality&#8217; was *not* his focus since this was not yet a problem in 1943 when the Third Republic under the Japanese was inaugurated.  The widespread moral degradation was yet to come the at tail-end of the Japanese occupation.</p>
<blockquote><p>A moral and intellectual aristocracy is needed to thwart them, which is why I think the challenges Abe Margallo outlined are worth meeting, else weÃ¢â‚¬â„¢re stuck with the aristocracy we have now.</p></blockquote>
<p>It would be good if we can do that, but we should not stop there.  I think that the concept of a <i>representative democracy</i> is reaching its limits.  We should develop the elements of <i>direct democracy</i> which will help us get closer to the democratic ideal of the <i>rule of all by all</i>. For a start, this means direct engagement of ordinary citizens in the public sphere as individuals or members of NGO&#8217;s.  This also means more frequent plebiscites, allowing for mass actions which includes the possibility of People Power.  Fortunately, all of these are, to varying extents, compatible with the Filipino psyche.</p>
<p>UPn Student, i think it is understood that the dead that you mention in the Superferry bombings are victims of a terrorist act, and are not collateral damage.  Collateral damage are the civilians who are caught in the crossfire of the government&#8217;s war.  Who is going to be responsible for this group of people?</p>
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