Referendum on Estrada
September 25, 2006 by mlq3
Filed under Daily Dose
The administration plan is laid out in Newbsreak: no need to enlist senatorial candidates with no Senate by May next year; a referendum and parliamentary elections, instead (though the true feelings of the House are reflected in Rep. Pichay’s proposal to postpone the elections at least to October next year); and then parliament could then immediately do the real work at hand, which is to further amend the constitution. I have no argument with Dan Mariano’s take on things -but Kit Tatad as the source is unfortunate. Anyway the issues are joined tomorrow at the Supreme Court, and it seems the main argument will be, bayonet Bernas:
In their manifestation before the Supreme Court, Sigaw ng Bayan and ULAP stressed that the primary objectives of the petitioners in proposing the shift to a unicameral parliamentary system are: The removal of the institutional gridlocks between Malacañang and Congress and between the Senate and the House; improvement of public governance; and democratization of the process of electing political leaders.
On the oppositors’ argument that the adoption of a parliamentary system entails a “revision†of and not just an amendment to the Constitution, ChaCha proponents contend the Constitution does not actually make a distinction between the two.
Even if there is such a fine distinction, they say, the proposed reform makes up a mere “amendment†and not “a revision†because it only covers a “single subject,†which is a systematic change in government.
Moreover, they point out that the anti-ChaCha groups are only relying on the opinion of 1986 Constitutional Convention delegate, Fr. Joaquin Bernas, that the parliamentary shift requires a “revision†and not a mere “amendment†to the Constitution. If Bernas is right, they ask why the Jesuit constitutional expert has not cited any “supporting authority†or jurisprudence to prove his point that a parliamentary switch represents a “revision†of, and not just an “amendment†to the 1987 Charter.
All options remain on the table. Even the House calendar is being prepped. The deadline seems to be a floating one, ranging from December to March next year for a plebiscite.
In contrast to other articles claiming the Thai generals moved to prevent Thaksin-led hooliganism, the Times of London suggests the motive was far less far-fetched: Thaksin was being heavy handed and bungling anti-insurgency efforts. In Thai coup sparked by failed war on Islamists, the Times argues,
According to sources briefed by the army high command, Thaksin’s bungled response to the insurgency in southern Thailand, which has claimed 1,700 lives in two years, was a critical factor in the generals’ decision to get rid of him.
Military intelligence officers intend to negotiate with separatists and to use psychological warfare to isolate the most violent extremists, in contrast to Thaksin’s heavy-handed methods and harsh rhetoric.
The question of the military and it’s security concerns -and justifications- reminds me of a recently-published, unauthorized, biography of the Thai monarch, “The King Never Smiles: A Biography of Thailand’s Bhumibol Adulyadej” (Paul M. Handley). I first read about it on the FriscoDude blog. Interesting observations on the book are also in the blog of Matthew Hunt, as well as links to other reactions to the book can be found in Bookish (and in baratillo@cubao, a link to a book on Latin American juntas available free, online).
Long before the present coup and the alarm presently being raised by journalists in Thailand over the military government’s censorship of the internet and of community radio stations (though so far, not the newspapers), the biography of the king received official hostility and the site of the publisher was blocked: an Amazon reader-reviewer says scuttlebutt in Thailand is that the book was commissioned by Thaksin!.
One way or another, the points for comparison keep popping up, as Roby Alampay pointed out in the Asa Times.
Randy David yesterday compares the Thai coup to Edsa Dos in the Philippines and says the lesson is:
In the way we normally understand democracy, the September coup is certainly a setback for Thai democracy. But who are we to judge Thai politics? Are we in the Philippines really better off being stuck with a President we resolutely distrust? Do rigged elections, damaged institutions, corrupt politicians and indifferent citizens constitute the essence of democracy? The lesson from Thailand, as I see it, is this: The only alternative to uniformed men seizing power for whatever reason is a virtuous and informed citizenry that fiercely defends its liberties and militantly refuses to be enslaved by corrupt leaders.
Let’s hope moving against officials who lined their pockets actually works for the Thais. The Nation focuses on one big case and the difficulties involved in unraveling it.
In his blog, Asia Cable, veteran journalist Todd Cromwell discusses why the Thai Constitution, “one of the most progressive documents of its kind in the world,” ended up being scrapped by the Thai Junta:
In retrospect it is clear that all political factions in the country set out to subvert both the letter and the spirit of the liberal document almost from the beginning. That includes, of course, the deposed prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra and members of his party, known colorfully as the “Thais Love Thais†Party.
For example, under the constitution the elected senate is not so much a legislative body, as it is in the United States, as it is a kind of guardian council. But from the beginning Thaksin senators abrogated their role as watchdogs to secretly serve the government’s agenda.
The senate’s support made it possible for the government to subvert supposedly independent bodies, such as the Election Commission. Three members of the commission were earlier imprisoned for trying to manipulate the results of the April 2 general election.
But the not-so loyal opposition parties also failed the country when they determined to boycott a general election because they knew they would lose. That led to the election being annuled and directly to the current political impasse. It finally took the army to cut through the Gordian Knot.
As the Bangkok Post editorialized: “Democracy is not just about free elections Rather, the democratic process is difficult daily task of making authorities accountable to voters and reining in the politicians who abuse the agreed legal framework.â€
In a commentary today, Kavi Chongkittavorn says Western diplomats remain ambivalent about the coup not because of democracy, but because of their bottom dollar -Thaksin signed to many big deals not to be fondly viewed by the diplomatic corps. The commentary goes on to stipulate which provisions of the now-scrapped constitution should be kept.
The Beijing correspondent of a Taiwan newspaper describes a debate on whether a similar coup could take place in China. The verdict? Corruption is so endemic everyone has a piece of the graft, so no chance of a coup.
Students in Bangkok defied the military (and will do so again this afternoon); students in Quezon City defied the AFP chief of staff.
In the punditocracy, my column for today is Referendum on Estrada. He’s not getting a fair trial. So let him settle the issue by running for office.
Bong Austero on heart disease treatments. Billy Esposo on an outrageous murder. Jojo Robles with a reader’s blunt questions: how much of the conventional wisdom’s based on actual facts?
Yesterday, Ramon Farolan pointed out two generals in the Thai coup are products of the Philippine Military Academy. Patricia Evangelista offered up a reflection on General Palparan.
And in The New Kyoto Review of South East Asia: an audio recording of an interview with Ferdinand Marcos, 6 months before he fell from power (the beginning, complete with clinking cutlery, is Imelda Marcos as the opening act: then Marcos begins with a lot of table-thumping; it’s interesting to hear him talking conversationally and reminiscing about the war). You can see why, even at the end of the road, sick, ailing and with a brain dulled by illness, Marcos remained a formidable person and respected even by many of his critics (and how loony the dictatorship had become, with Imelda’s prattle). The moment Imelda leaves the room, Marcos slides into his tried and tested, smooth lawyerly persona. It’s rather charming how Marcos keeps saying, “don’t you think so?”
In the blogosphere, Thai coup fallout, thinking-wise, in unlikely places. Sun Protective wonders what would happen if there was a coup or martial law in the USA. The possible response: a couch potato rebellion.
Other places where prime ministers are in trouble: Wonkette quotes what the Hungarian Prime Minister said to provoke rioting (tongue firmly in cheek, she asks, he lied, but so what?).
One Man in Bangkok describes how he spent the coup and what it’s like living under martial law. Notice the Thais have something we don’t: tanks (well, they also have an aircraft carrier, albeit mothballed).
Another Malaysian irked by Lee Kwan Yew.
Philosophical Scratchpad takes a Malaysian and philosophical look at what Filipinos know as the bangungut.
And finally, via Perpetual Thursday, a link to what has to be one of the niftiest blogs around: Indexed. A life lesson, every day, on an index card, but online! Plus, lots and lots of a personal fetish of mine -Venn Diagrams!
Technorati Tags: constitution, history, ideas, journalism, law, Marcos, media, military, people’s initiative, philippines, politics, president, Thailand
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Paul on Mon, 25th Sep 2006 8:38 am
Manolo, the Philippine Army has tanks – British-made Scorpions – but not a lot of them.
rude boy on Mon, 25th Sep 2006 10:11 am
Of course, Estrada would win again, were he to run for senate. However, I do not see the (re-)election of Estrada (or other members of his family) as a public exoneration of Joseph Estrada. Rather, I think he retains his mass support in spite of public knowledge of his corruption because, well, it’s not like the politicians from elite trapo families are clean either (they just have the education/finesse not to get caught).
If the election of Loi & Jinggoy Estrada to the senate is an “unquestionable referendum on the charges against them,” then I guess the lack of middle-class support for the opposition is a referendum on the quality of leaders amongst them who can inspire our trust & confidence to move the country forward. This doesn’t mean that we support or like or even trust GMA. It simply means that we are NOT convinced that going back (to nullify EDSA II) is moving forward (as the opposition contends).
cvj on Mon, 25th Sep 2006 11:14 am
Rude boy, the middle-class referendum against the opposition that you speak of has so far happened only in your head. As for the lack of support for the opposition to GMA among many within the middle class, this is more a symptom of a flawed understanding of their own role in a democracy.
hvrds on Mon, 25th Sep 2006 11:16 am
It might be a good idea for the Explainer to dwell on the evolution of universal suffrage in the more advanced nation states of the world and the problems in using this model of universal suffrage as the be it and end all of what we call democracy. I believe that even in the more advanced countries universal suffrage was instituted towards the latter half of the 20th century. The Iraqi model imposed by the U.S. and the U.K. today wherein the voting went along strictly ethnic and sectarian lines is a case in point. The Iraq parliament is today implicitly debating the breaking up of Iraq into autonomous zones. After all it was the self educated expert Gertrude Bell who had assisted the British authorities in drawing up the map of Iraq then after the First World War.
Trying to reverse engineer political and economic institutions onto countires whose natural evolutionary development had already been distorted by colonization is really trying to put back squeezed toothpaste into a tube. The most extreme example of course was Pol Pot and what the U.S. is trying to do in the Middle East is simply a variation of this.
The Sunni minority in Iraq is fearfull of the Shia majority and believes the Shias are allied with the outsiders against them. Hence the civil war ongoing. So much blood has been shed and the cycle of blood debts being repeated again and again.
We had better really step back from thoughts about military or power grabs using violence. It could explode into unrelenting carnage. The superficial insitutions of state (most especially the SC) that we have are going to be put to extreme tests in the following months. They (the SC) failed the country during Marcos and during Erap’s time. Hope and pray they hold. This is larger than anyone.
hvrds on Mon, 25th Sep 2006 11:44 am
The myth of democratic institutions (ru;le of majority of voters) making the laws in the U.S.
First the U.S. president is elected through the electoral college system of votes and not the popular vote.
Second senators who have to sing on to all laws drawn up by the lower house are elected by the home states exclusively. All states are entitled to send two senators to the bicameral congress irrespective of their populations.
Laws may sometimes be legislated in the U.S. not with the implicit consent of the majority of citizens represented.
From the history of the “Connecticut Compromise”
“As the hot summer tightened its grip on the stalemated delegates, Sherman and Ellsworth offered a solution. Ellsworth explained that equal state representation was imperative in a Union “partly national, partly federal.†Sherman proposed a specific agreement for a dual system of representation. In the House of Representatives, each state would be assigned a number of seats based on its population. In the Senate, all states would have the same number of seats.”
“On July 16, the convention adopted the Connecticut Compromise by a heart-stopping margin of one vote. Without that vote, there likely would have been no Constitution.”
torn on Mon, 25th Sep 2006 1:39 pm
I believe the idea of encouraging deposed president Estrada to run for Senate is completely opposed to any notion of justice, which depends not on the whims of (often ill-informed) popularity but on a considered and objective assessment of the facts and the law. Estrada is on trial for the serious crime of plunder. Whether or not he retains his popularity has nothing to do with his guilt or innocence.
Let’s look at another case of a politician running for office from his cell. Congressman Jalosjos from Mindanao was found guilty of raping a child in 1997. Despite his conviction and incarceration, he stood for re-election to Congress and won. What did that election prove (beyond the stupidity of his constituents and the deepness of his pockets)?
Equally, so what if Erap were elected to the Senate? What would that demonstrate? He is not being tried for unpopularity, but for theft and grand larceny. Even if he were elected, Erap’s trial at the Sandiganbayan would have to continue and he would be unable to take up his Senate seat, which would not doubt upset his loyal followers even more.
A senatorial campaign by the jailed former actor and president would in fact deepen the divisions in the country and make the Philippines look foolish in the eyes of the world.
Global Pinoy on Mon, 25th Sep 2006 1:55 pm
mlq3,
Why not an honest-to-goodness snap election where GMA and Erap can run to settle the issues — GMA’s illegitimacy and the verdict on Erap — democratically, once and for all?
If GMA wins we’ll have a ‘pangulong may bagong mandato’.
Or we’ll have new president, a ‘bagong pangulo’.
Or if Erap wins, ‘isang nagbagong pangulo’.
Who better to lead ‘para sa pagbabago kundi siyang halibawa ng pagbabago’. Detention has been good for Erap. Maybe it’s time for him to be back and be a better, wiser president.
For GMA, a snap election is a leap of faith, a ‘letting go’, an overcoming, a ‘personal coup’ which could spark a LEGITIMIZING ‘political coup’ — a new and indesputable mandate!!
For a new president, the ‘Challenge of an Election for a Revolution’ is the loud and clear ‘Call of the Times’– “Dumating na ang Panahon ng Pagbabago”. A new voice calling for a new beginning could enkindle hope in a citizenry desperate for hope. Maybe this time, at least, the political crisis will not escalate, the urgent issues critical for our survival as a nation will be the focus of our collective attention and united undertaking lead by a ‘Pangulong Rebolusyonaryo’.
Let’s settle this acute and chronic leadership crisis with clear and decisive undertakings. I’m sure the people will support One Voice on this: “Bagong Halalan para sa sa Pagbabago ng Bayan — Bagong Mandato, Bagong Pangulo o Nagbagong Pangulo !!!”
manuelbuencamino on Mon, 25th Sep 2006 2:19 pm
hvrds,
Think about majority rule/minority rights in the US as a constant struggle between the masses and the elite, the big states versus the small states.
The 2 senators per state system balances out the weight of heavily populated states.
The bicameral nature of the US Congress is an American revision version of the House of Lords vs. House of Commons system . The state and national elite was deemed necessary to control the urges of the masses.
As to the electoral college –
The electoral college is weighed in the favor of heavily populated states. But another purpose behind the electoral college, before “the winner of the popular vote in the state takes all” tradition became the norm, was for electors to overturn the popular vote when necessary. That was when the electoral college functioned pretty much like a party caucus before the advent of popular primary elections.
America’s founding founders, for all their professed love for popular democracy , were really afraid of the “people”. Thus their bifurcated system.
However, and so far, the system they came out with seems to have created a pretty good balance between the stupids and the know-it-alls, the poor and the have it alls. At least in terms of preventing a revolution or a violent class war.
To put it another way, the system is good because it balances yin and yang.
manuelbuencamino on Mon, 25th Sep 2006 2:33 pm
global pinoy,
the erap vs. gma election sounds good at first glance but it ignores a crucial distinction between Erap and Gloria. Erap’s edge is his popularity. Gloria’s edge is her cheating. So how?
The only way a credible contest between the two can happen is if Gloria let’s Noli take-over, the Comelec commissioners are replaced by people chosen by both Erap and Gloria camps, and all of Gloria’s political appointees resign. In short, if you want a fair and honest election you have to dismantle Gloria’s cheating apparatus. Otherwise, you’ll be pissing against the wind.
The Ca t on Mon, 25th Sep 2006 3:44 pm
re: Bong Austero’s article.
There was a time when c-section for pregnant women was recommended
ehrm required for women who did not need it at all.
Got a friend whose first baby was delivered caesarean because her ob-gyne told her so.
Second baby was delivered normal. The attending obstetrician was the wife of a boss of mine. She was told that she didn’t need it at all since her birth canal is big enough even for a 9-lb baby.
Sad.
I am intrigued whether a legislator is going to make a law preventing or making it difficult for people to buy cigarettes.
The big cigarette manufacturer in the Philippines is a generous donor for political parties of different colors.
The Ca t on Mon, 25th Sep 2006 3:52 pm
Re: Farolan
The revelation of Farolan that two generals involved in the Thailand coup confirms my suspicion that Conrado Quiros is not making a research or wide reading before he writes an article. In his article, importations, he proposed that Philippines should import Thai generals to have a successful coup.
No need for importation, the Philippines provided their training for bloodless coup.
The Ca t on Mon, 25th Sep 2006 4:02 pm
re: Thailand censorship
But of course the newspapers are not subject to restriction. Wasn’t it the media mogul who started it all?
But of course the radio communications need censorship. They recognized the fact that the deposed PM was popular in the countryside. These people depend more on radios for news rather than the print media just like our people in the remote areas.
anna de brux on Mon, 25th Sep 2006 4:02 pm
Torn,
But the Philippines already looks foolish in the eyes of the world!
anna de brux on Mon, 25th Sep 2006 5:42 pm
mlq3,
I’m all for Erap running in next year’s elections.
Wait till Malacanang hears this and government voters’ machinery will start grinding.
Manuel Buencamino’s theory that voters’ lists will include dead men’s votes might just become a reality.
deuz_X_mach1na on Mon, 25th Sep 2006 9:41 pm
manolo,
why in god’s name is the solicitor-general of the Philippines acting as counsel to SNB and ULAP. we are not paying him to represent this groups. for god’s sake his suppose to be the lawyer of the republic. if until now nobody believes this just an administration ploy then i hope they think about my point.
cvj on Mon, 25th Sep 2006 10:32 pm
Torn, when it comes to Erap, ‘a considered and objective assessment of the facts and the law‘ is not forthcoming anytime soon. I take mlq3’s recommendation to have Erap’s run for the Senate as a ‘referendum’ in the same spirit as One Voice’s proposal to let the 2007 local elections be a ‘referendum’ on GMA’s legitimacy. To me, both taste like bitter medicine, but it may be better than the status quo. Of course, a prerequisite for both would be clean elections.
justice league on Tue, 26th Sep 2006 12:50 am
I have to put my stake with Torn.
Didn’t the people choose Barabbas over Jesus?
re Austero’s article, it may not matter much but Cardiologists do not perform heart surgery. Cadiovascular surgeons might be able to do what Cardiologists do but not the other way around. I don’t want to sound morbid but it seems to have been only 3 weeks since the whole affair with the MDs began.
The Ca t, your friend underwent VDAC. Vaginal Delivery After Caesarian. Maybe you should ask her if the Child underwent fetal distress. If so, there would be little recourse other than Caesarian section. Or there maybe other attendant factors.
If not, well there is a term “Mabigat siguro pangangailangan”.
Global Pinoy on Tue, 26th Sep 2006 1:14 am
manuelbuencamino,
The People’s Initiative for Snap Elections has three objectives: break the impasse, settle the issues and move on.
An initiative is needed to break the impasse. An honest-to-goodness initiative has to start somewhere, somehow. Catching the first glance is good enough as it opens a window of opportunity, narrow as it may seem at first. There is a viable political solution that can be a ‘point of convergence’ where contending principals can meet or provide a rallying point to gather a critical mass. Either way, popular momentum must be directed according to a ‘roadmap’ which addresses key issues while remaining on course.
Your preconditions, for example, for a credible elections can be discussed in the context of political reconcilliation and negotiated with an enactment of ‘constitutional’ amnesty for GMA to go on leave from office, COMELEC commissioners to resign and preferrably to go on exile, with Garci, during the elections — from start of campaign to proclamation. If the ‘Reconcilliation via Snap Election’ option is rejected then a ‘Constitutional Revolution’ option could be initiated and undertaken in the context of truth and accountability via Constitutional and institutional processes. How? Boycott the 2007 elections (Thaksin ‘won’ but lost because of the critical and significant boycott, your concerns are arguments for such) combined with church-led ( Bishops already called for it) civil disobedience, with guarranteed international coverage (GMA is on top of the ‘coup-able’Thaksinish heads-of-state, GMA’s on notice for political killings, a Philippine coup is an ‘international media coup’), which will pro-activate a movement in the military to join the people — mass leave/resignation!!! — no need for tanks and guns, not even for fatigues and helmets, no need for soldiers in the streets and on the stage, just stay put!!! stay home, embrace your families, do not obey orders that destroy other families.
An inevitable, clear and present danger to the status quo is looming on the horizon. The country is on a crossroads. Options and alternatives need to be viewed with open minds. Every step, the next step is crucial. What’s important with starting with a morally and politically sound initiative is that it provides a solid footing and a springboard for the next morally and politically mandatory steps.
Phil Cruz on Tue, 26th Sep 2006 1:31 am
You all saw what happened in the last elections. Esperon was not AFP Chief yet at that time. And yet he was one of Gloria’s poster boys in delivering the votes. He is now AFP Chief. Imagine what he will do in the next elections or plebiscite or referendum.
stuart-santiago on Tue, 26th Sep 2006 1:50 am
about erap. i think he has suffered enough. five years in jail is punishment enough for whatever it is he did that we are punishing him for. he certainly is no more deserving of jail than marcos was, and yet we let marcos off easy.
i would set erap free on the condition that he drop all claims to the presidency and that he never run for public office again. after all, he’s had his turn, and he botched it. who knows that he won’t botch it again. the pattern has been set.
tbl on Tue, 26th Sep 2006 2:34 am
yes , the filipinos did not do anything about marcos’ crimes.
i have yet to see anyone in marcos’s regime, relatives, friends cronies convicted of crimes or put in jail. yet, eveyone know what they did.
tbl on Tue, 26th Sep 2006 3:37 am
Medicine is not black and white. Although it is based in science, in practice we may say it is more of an ART of practicing science (medicine). Every patient is completely different from the others, such that management differs from one person to another depending on circumstances, time and so many other factors. If someone attend a tumor board or a mortality/morbidity conference, there you can see numerous factors influencing the decision making of the clinician or the team handling the case. Factors such as the kind of specialist attending the case, the place where he was trained, the hospital setting, the debilitating factors affecting the patient, the availability of the ancillary services and so many things, they are really impossible to list here. The circumstances also changes by the minute or second! Suffice it to say that I have yet to see an incident where monetary benefit on the part of the attending clinician factor in the decision making.
Take for example cesarean section, the condition of the mother and the baby should be considered all the time. The baby may be in distress which is due to so many things, both from the mother or the baby. There are also different levels of fetal distress, different levels of maternal problems each level is assessed and managed accordingly. CS may also be classical incision (midline) or lower uterine segment incision (transverse). Each has different indications, incidence of morbidity and mortality, short and long term complications, etc.. So many things come into play during the delivery of a baby…..there is no way to compare one delivery from another without reviewing all the data in a particular event.
It is extremely difficult to compare medical events between patients or even between the same patient at different point intervals without knowing all the details.
justice league on Tue, 26th Sep 2006 7:44 am
At least 2 South Korean Presidents were charged in their courts and then convicted. Their penalties were then lowered in scale.
As one columnists put it, Justice was done, retribution followed and then compassion shown.
rego on Tue, 26th Sep 2006 8:07 am
if erap is guilty as charge, 5 years in jail is not the corresponding punishment.
Sometimes I just can’t relate to Manolo’s punditry and this time suggesting that Erap should run for senate. Torn did pose the right question ” what can we achieved from that???? and i believed this is a very important question that shoudl not be ignored by the proponents of such idea….
What Earp referendum? Do the people deserve to subjected to such choice again it?
Don’t we have enough of Erap?. Is nt putting Erap back in Malacanang or even in senate a step backward against what we really wanted to achieved? Jinggoy and loi is already in teh senate and looks like JV is going to the senate too ( if the May 2007 election will push through). With that should we still miss Erap in the senate????
I have read a lot of times about how most of the bloggers here (especially the rabid anti GMA) abhored corruption, to political killings etc etc. But did we saw it before very own eyes how Clarissa Ocampo pointed to Erap as the one who sign the “Velarde” . Will we just closed our eyes to the murder of Bobby Dacer and Corbito during the time of Erap impeachment?
Cant the opposition come up with a better personality to lead them? And they still wonder why the tipping point is not happening?
iniduro ni emilie on Tue, 26th Sep 2006 8:45 am
rego and torn,
“what can we achieved from that????”
saturation. let us satiate ourselves and see what these showbiz people can do, and once we find out that (a) they are a waste of vote; or (b) they can indeed achieve something, then (a1) people will think twice about voting them in the next elections (no more richard gomezes contemplating of running as governor, etc.); or (b1) we can rethink about the concept of democracy being a electoral space for everyone–part of maturation process?
rego, “But did we saw it before very own eyes how Clarissa Ocampo pointed to Erap as the one who sign the “Velarde†.
indeed. and that should have been the strongest reason why the impeachment shall not have been aborted by the emotional outbursts of legal nincompoops representing the opposition then and the texters choice. here’s this guy who was willing to subject himself to a trial. can you say the same for gma?
elinca on Tue, 26th Sep 2006 8:46 am
tbl, you’re right. We did not just ignore the Marcos criminals, we elected those sons-of-bitches into office!!! As one American writer puts it, Philippine politics is unique: they transform cronies into statesmen, torturers into legislators, and killers into generals.
domingo arong on Tue, 26th Sep 2006 9:17 am
Erap, GMA, the Marcoses, and all incumbents including those who have ever been an incumbent elective official since 1946 and members of their immediate families (DYNASTY) should be barred from running for any elective position during the next or any other election ever.
It’s the re-election of incumbents and the absence of a DYNASTY prohibition, under whatever system, parliamentary or presidential, that stain the electoral process and make a mockery of majority rule, a rule that is decided by the poor majority.
Let a consitutional provision OUST the incumbents (and their immediate families) at the end of one term in office.
And let the electorate choose from a NEW set of faces during every election.
vic on Tue, 26th Sep 2006 9:28 am
Actors? And what wrong with actors turning into Politicians? Nothing!! We had seen Reagan, not so great actor and did a fine job running the world most powerful nation. If Pamela Anderson go politics, she could be just as good as Pierre Trudeau or even better. Marcos was a brilliant and some of his admirers will swear that he was a political genius, and what had he done? Erap acted all the way to the Presidency and blundered Big Time. The current President we have now is bragging to have all the Educational qualifications and Economic expertise, yet she’s hated and despised by the the same society who one way or the other propelled her to the Office. So what’s wrong with our society as a whole? Not just the political process, but the justice system, and even the whole masses? Nothing. We just refused to grow up, mature, deny that we have some serious problems and just wishing they will go away. From the
top to the bottom, everyone is in this mess together, and soon it will be gone to the point that it will be no longer in anyone’s control.
rego on Tue, 26th Sep 2006 9:35 am
Iniduro,
1. saturation point…
But how many years did erap served the government? from mayor, to senator to vice president to president? how about ramon revilla, tito sotto, jaworski, and now we lito lapid, bong revilla. can’t we just use this as a date for that ” saturation point?” FPJ did not produce a landslide votes against gloria. I know you will say that she cheated. But if millions and million of people voted for him, it would have been improbable for gloria to cheat…I believe saturation point is not very good reason for an Erap referendum.
2. Erap subjected himself to a trial…..
I dont think so! He did not volunteered himself to be impeached at all. The pro impeachment congressmen then worked so hard for him to be impeached and gathered enough votes for teh articles of impeachment to be transmitted to the senate. He also did some form of bribery to blocked that impeachment…
I agree with you that the impeachment process should have been allowed to be completed. But being one of those who trooped to EDSA right after the “enveloped were not allowed to be opened by the admnistration senators” i did feel that was not a very good decision. But then I took it as a learning. That is the reason why this time, I dont support any call for people power or any form of quick solutions, even worst, an emotional aproach to get over with Gloria . And I believe that that is the common sentiments of a lot people too.
Pero inuduro, Erap is now undergoing trial. It would be imractical to go back to Erap impeachment , debate on wether it should have been allowed to be completed or not. Let the court decide on Erap case now.
Still I am not convinced that people deserve to be subjected to an Erap referendum….
rego on Tue, 26th Sep 2006 9:44 am
Oh yes, domingo arong, that is been my stand too. And im sure cvj know this, I have posted the same belief here , in bong austero’s blog and and even in PCIJ….very similar to what you just said. That to me is teh most Ideal solution to our problem. And I opened it up to some Pinoys that I met in our tambayan here ( Bario Fiesta Restaurant in Roosevelt Queens) and they too also believe in that too. mmmmmm I am wondering why, the opposition and especially the civil society is not entertainibg the same idea, too….
rego on Tue, 26th Sep 2006 9:51 am
By the way, domingo, I will only go for a charter change that will prohibit those people and their imediate families ( up to third degree or fourth) who already served the current and previous government to be barred from being elected into office or even serve as cabinet members and other important government positions. I believe that is the only way we can turn our nation upside down.
rego on Tue, 26th Sep 2006 10:23 am
yes Ca t. I myself expereinced it in St Luke’s hospital five years ago. I was rush to the hospital from work because i was in such a terrible pain and the urine analysis conducted in our company clinic showed some blood. The initial suspicion is kidney stone. Initially they used dye to locate the stone but its negative. Then they recomended a certain procedure that will insert a camera through my penile opening to locate the stone. Still negative. 3 days went by. No doctors really came to me to explain what are the findings. And I was told that I will be discharge after 5 days. Then they ask me if there is any other things that trouble me. I related to them that Im worried about my stomach, that I may have developed ulcers. Immediately they recommeded endoscopy. Agin the findings is negative for ulcers. After 5 days I todl that I am to be discharged. But no doctors at all came by to explain to me about what cause such pain and the blood in my urine. Not even to explain what medicine should I take, and food should I avoid to avoid similar pain in the future. Then I was billed P100,000 for it. Oh yes I stayed in a private room and that may have contributed a lot to the bill but then most of the bills also went to the doctors and aenesthisiologist. And yet they did not bother to dicuss to me their finding or none of it. So what I did I just asked the nurse to photo copy all my medical charts that details the procedures that were done and went straight to my uncle who is a general surgeon to interpret all of them for me. Unti now I still cant believe it that I shelled out such a large sum of money without even knowing what really ails me then…
DJB on Tue, 26th Sep 2006 10:36 am
MLQ3,
On the matter of AMENDMENT or REVISION, it seems that in the US jurisdiction, a REVISION OF a Constitution always results in a NEW Constitution, a new version of that Charter. Thus, the US Constitution so far has ZERO REVISIONS but 27 AMENDMENTS. The Philippine Constitution however has had four versions: Malolos(1899), Commonwealth(1935), Marcos(1972) and the 1987 Freedom Constitution. Also, over 200 new Constitutions have resulted from US States revising their charters.
But if we were to adopt this terminology and the practice in the US, it would seem that the People’s initiative to change the form of government in this manner would NOT result in a new Arroyo Constitution (2007) or something like that. It would simply become the First Amendment of the Fourth Philippine Constitution.
tbl on Tue, 26th Sep 2006 10:56 am
by law and ethics, any physician who request a test or do a procedure is responsible to the patient with regards to that procedure or test results.. therefore, he should explain the results to the patient, normal or abnormal. during procedures such as endoscopies, as soon as the patient wakes up and usually before the patient is wheeled out of the recovery room, the gi doc will explain to him the operative findings. as soon as the pathology results of the biopsy (if a biopsy was taken) is available, the results will be explained fully to the patient, and most of the time, with the consent of the patient, repeated to the relatives.
it is up to the patient to ask the doctor to repeat anything or explain all the remifications of the findings if he does not understand the first time it was explained. if the case is complicated or if several relatives are involed, then a family conference with all the clinicians taking care of the patient is in order. this is common these days. patients’ rignts are never ignored in the medical practice. the patient or the relatives have to be vocal for any problem or anyuthing they don’t understand, otherewise the clinicans usually thinks the things discussed during the first encounter of the problem or lab result has been communicated properly and understood fully by everyone.
DJB on Tue, 26th Sep 2006 11:01 am
MLQ3,
I PREDICT that the Philippine Supreme Court will adopt the US interpretation of the words AMENDMENT and REVISION as I indicated in the post previous, clearing the way for a shift to a Unicameral Parliament by People’s initiative on the constitution.
Even in the US jurisdiction, PEOPLES INITIATIVE can only amend Constitutions, not revise them. And I believe, except for the tiny, odd state of Delaware, all States require ratification by popular vote or plebiscite of any such Amendments. It will be so here as well.
But here is my “philosophical criticism” of the 1987 Constitution:
WHY was the People’s Initiative mode of chacha invented in the first place? It was so the people had a way of SIDESTEPPING elected Legislatures which are naturally averse to changing a system they’ve already mastered and to directly amend charters and state and local laws. People’s Initiative is institutionalised people power, truly an American invention. Some States even have periodic, self-convening constitutional conventions which automatically consider the question of if, when and how much of their State Constitutions to change, from none to all.
But the 1987 Constitution’s provision on people’s initiative is SELF-DEFEATING. The People’s Initiative mode of chacha was crippled at birth by its authors with the proviso that:
“The Congress shall provide for the implementation of this right.” (Art XVII Section 2)
People’s Initiative was a hostage to the Legislature, a condition that Raul S. Roco apparently tried to change with RA 6735. But now the People’s Initiative is a TOOL of that Legislature, which realized how the 1987 framers gave them their ticket to OLIGARCHY.
cvj on Tue, 26th Sep 2006 11:13 am
I concur with Iniduro’s idea of ’saturation’. Voting for the likes of Erap was part of the ongoing process of learning to choose our leaders as a nation. It is the arrogance of the elite and middle forces that has prematurely cut this process short. Before, i thought we at least had justice on our side, but after Garci, the sidestepping of the people’s mandate and the ’silence’ that followed, that was no longer the case. We no longer have the moral right to block an Erap (or Marcos) restoration if that is the people’s will as expressed through elections.
Rego, i also agree with the anti-dynasty proposal but, for the moment, we have be realistic.
Global Pinoy on Tue, 26th Sep 2006 11:23 am
DJB,
I can’t follow your line of reasoning.
Is the following an ‘ammendment’ or a ‘revision’ of your conclusion?
“But if we were to adopt this terminology and the practice in the US, it would seem that the People’s initiative to change the form of government in this manner” — purportedly ammending while actually revising — “would (NOT)result in a new Arroyo Constitution (2007) or something like that” — a GMA-JdV-FVR-Jaraula-Pichay Constitution.
rego on Tue, 26th Sep 2006 12:23 pm
oh yes, cvj, i do understand that what I want to happen is unrealistic. it was just an idea though….
another unrealistic thing that I would ove to happen is to manage the country the same way that big or even multinational companies are being manage. I work for Intel Corp prior to coming here and I was just amazed at how everybody was so responsible and customer oriented. Problem solving is being done through a system called global 8 D and I found it very effective. Defined exactly the problem by coming up with a concise problem statement. verify the validity of the problem. implement containment action. run evaluations, and experiments, simulations, implement corrective actions. verify the effectiveness of the corrective action and implement the permanent corrective actions from the most effective temporary corrective actions…
I know this is unrealistic and but I have a feeling that this doable too…Of course I am not really unfamiliar to with political system in the country. I came from a political clan and I grow up with it. So my feeling is that it really doable. No is just pusshing for it.
Woudl it be nice to have a well trained, congressmen and senators like the supervisors and managers in this big corporations?
So why not Manny Pangilinan for Presidentor Jaime Zobel Or even Jacob Pena ( the last Pinoy head of Intel Phils now it is being headed by expats) for president…instead of the present jaded crop of politicans that we have now. Look at New York City with Mayor Bloomberg at the helm.
Honestly I can’t find anybody from the present congressman and senators that I would vote for president next elections. Pwede pa siguro is Mayor Sonny Belmonte, or Rep Nerio Acosta
But Erap again????? Pleeaaassseeeeeeeeeeeeeee!!!!!!!
DJB on Tue, 26th Sep 2006 12:36 pm
GlobalPinoy:
Under US terminology the present Sigaw ng Bayan proposal would be considered part of an amendment process. The difference between AMENDMENT and REVISION is not essentially one of degree of the change, but the SCOPE of what is allowed to be changed. In an amendment process such as people’s initiative one is not allowed to revise the entire document whereas in CONASS or CONCON, the matters to be amended, revised or changed CAN include the entire document or ANY subset of it. Here the proponents can change, add, subtract or combine the subjects to be revised or amended. In a pure amendment process like PI, there is no freedom on the part of the proponents (the 12%) to change, expand or modify the proposals and their subjects in the charter.
Clearly, the Sigaw ng Bayan PI is an amendatory process, even if the impact on the charter and the society will be large. But ANY constitutional change, amendment or revision, is arguably of large influence on the society and the constitution.
If the Court rules in this case that the subject of the PI is “too large” that will be a dangerous tragedy, since then, only “trivial” amendments will ever be allowed in future people’s initiatives.
I don’t like the Unicameral Parliamentary proposal and intend to campaign and vote against it–if and when the time comes!
But we ought not throw the baby out with the bath water…people’s initiative is a valuable constitutional tool and should be enabled…
rego on Tue, 26th Sep 2006 12:38 pm
BTW CVJ, kung saturation point lang naman ang reason nyo para patabuhin is Erap. Isn’t the FPJ candidacy enough to satify that? FPJ did no get as much vote as Erap, should n’t that be enough to conclude that saturation point was already reached?
rego on Tue, 26th Sep 2006 12:49 pm
So TBL, I should have sued that St Luke s doctor who did the first procedure. I have no problem with the oen who did the endoscopy. He did do his obligatiosn well. He was even surprised to know that the first doctor did not explain to me what happen to that procedure. I tried asking him to interpret the results of the first procudure bu he dcelien becuas eit was beyond his expertise. Instead he told me to call thet doctor in his office . But was was just told that he is out…Anyway minura mura ko sila doon sa feedback form and I remeber puting the name of teh doctor the feedback form. After that kasi I came to new York na….
DJB on Tue, 26th Sep 2006 1:47 pm
TORN,
The point of Erap undergoing “trial by election” doesn’t have anything to do with Erap per se, but with the need for Justice in a case where it seems the accused — despicable stinker that he is — CANNOT get a fair trial. It is therefore not about Erap but about US and our self-respect, our ability to accept the Justice system as our own. He was after all a democratically elected president. He has been accused of all those horrible crimes of plunder you recoil from but has been under arrest for over four years while his gaolers romp in his old playground, making even more hay than him. Yet he has not been convicted of any crime. It is an utter lie that it is Erap delaying his case. It is convenient to have him around, like the Devil in a Noose. But it is the current regime that cannot resolve the case and avoid the ticking clock which points an accusing finger at it: Justice delayed is Justice denied.
It is denied to us, the citizens, even more than it is denied to Erap. He may be guilty of plunder, but the Supreme Court and the Palace are equally guilty of Dereliction of Duty and Obstruction of Justice!
In other words, it was not only Erap who was guilty of crimes; those who deposed him were guilty of treason, coup d’etat and conspiracy, though more respectable labels have been found. Like PEOPLE POWER.
It was after all the Supreme Court that deposed him, not by a DECISION they rendered with cold impartiality, but with treacherous, illegal and unconstitutional ACT committed by Chief Justice Davide himself in swearing in GMA.
It was the Justices of the Court that participated in a conspiratorial coup d’etat against the corrupt and dysfunctional Erap, then as Supreme Court a few months later, acted like the King of Siam and blessed it’s own judicial coup.
Now, how can Erap possibly get a fair trial from the Supreme Court when those were the truthful circumstances of his overthrow?
cvj on Tue, 26th Sep 2006 3:08 pm
Rego, i’ve have spent my working life in a multinational IT firm and while i can relate to the professionalism and problem-solving methodology that you have described, i would characterize that as only part of the picture. There is also office politics which gets stronger the further up the management level you go. What distinguishes a business entity like a corporation from the government is that the market is quicker to penalize poor performance. Electing professional managers like Pangilinan is no panacea as they would not be able to take the market environment that they work in with them. I do think though that former employees of big corporations are good candidates for the civil service as they would have the necessary experience of running a bureaucracy. If we want that to happen, the salaries should be adjusted accordingly to make the post more competitive to job-seekers and make side-income unnecessary.
Regarding ’saturation’, you cannot conclude that saturation has already taken place and at the same time, still fear that Erap will win. That would be incoherent. Anyway, as far as you the other ’silent revolutionaries’ are concerned, what’s the problem? Since ‘pare-pareho lang naman sila’, you can very well continue with your strategy of ‘moving on’ and concentrate on actionable things within your circle of influence. The masses in turn, would have gotten the chance to express their will. Win-win.
never again on Tue, 26th Sep 2006 5:22 pm
I am amazed that that serious and intelligent people support this saturation point argument.
How much proof do we need?
Does Erap actually have to appoint Atong Ang Finance Secretary before we wake up and think, oh perhaps it isn’t a good idea to have criminals running the country?
By “saturation point†do you mean that Erap and his cronies have to drink all night and all day (instead of just collapsing over their glasses of Petrus at 4 in the morning)?
Does the president actually have to do NO work at all (instead of putting in 2 hungover hours pressing the flesh at a tree planting as Eap used to do)?
This relates to a point Anna made about whether the Philippines looks foolish to the rest of the world. Actually, I don’t think it does right now. Personally, I think Gloria has been a big disappointment and that she shouldn’t even be there because of the electoral fraud, but let’s give her credit where it is due. She is a hard-working and serious-minded person. In her way, she is trying her best and I think the rest of the world sees that. Her predecessor just made the country look idiotic.
I remember a conversation I had with a member of a European trade delegation back in Erap’s time. The delegation was doing a tour around Asia and contained some heavy hitters, representatives of some of Europe’s largest corporations, actively looking for countries where they could invest. According to my source, having arrived at Malacañang, the delegation had to wait for an hour while president shot a promotional video on the lawn. When the meeting eventually started, the president showed no interest in the subject, spent most of the time talking to his staff and left shortly after it had started. “No country deserves a president like thisâ€, the guy said to me.
I’m completely opposed to even opening the door the tiniest crack to Erap. I think it would be an unimaginably huge disaster to have him back.
cvj on Tue, 26th Sep 2006 6:07 pm
Never again, that’s why i said that bringing Erap back tastes like bitter medicine. If he runs, i won’t vote for Erap. However, it is for the people as a whole and not you or me to decide these things. That’s how a democracy works. Arroyo had no business rigging the elections and we have no business supporting her explicitly or tacitly once we found out the facts. Once things go back in their right order, i will be happy to join Bong Austero, Rego and you in moving-on.
torn on Tue, 26th Sep 2006 6:32 pm
Democracies are not just about the will of the people—that will is expressed within certain limits defined by the constitution and body of laws. As I understand it, this is because there are believed to be certain enduring values of the body politic that are of a higher order than those of the electorate at any given time, the “will of the peopleâ€.
Thus, no matter how many people vote for him, someone who is in jail for a serious crime cannot hold public office until he has served his time, for example (forgetting about Jalosjos for a moment). The values of the legal system are held to be higher than the transient wishes of the people.
That’s my problem with your argument: you are looking for solutions at one level (a plebiscite) for a problem at another (alleged criminality).
You may be right that Erap cannot expect a fair shake from the courts, but in the end if the Sandiganbayan is all we have that’s what we have to go with. I honestly don’t think a plebiscite would be at all relevant.
cvj on Tue, 26th Sep 2006 7:29 pm
Torn, i agree that democracy is more than just the will of the people, but that is the starting point. Unfortunately, right now, the Constitution and the body of laws is being enforced by someone who herself has not been chosen by the people. Without a legitimate mandate, the GMA government cannot convict (or acquit) Erap. That is the main reason why, as mlq3 has explained in his column, and as you also acknowledge, Erap cannot expect a fair shake from the courts. Given that situation, i cannot accept your assertion that ‘in the end if the Sandiganbayan is all we have that’s what we have to go with‘. That would be privileging form over substance – another hallmark of the GMA Administration. It would also be unjust for Erap to rot in jail without being convicted while we wait for the legitimacy issue to be resolved. So in the end, if we all accept that the Sandiganbayan is not a fair venue, then we have to resort to the wisdom of the people, however defective some of us may think it is.
torn on Tue, 26th Sep 2006 8:01 pm
OK, I’ve argued that line myself in other contexts so I suppose I can go along with it here. After all “the people†are never quite as stupid as many people believe and they may make a “good†choice (if it is presented to them of course). It’s just that the thought of going back to those days …
DiYumu Yuko on Tue, 26th Sep 2006 8:23 pm
When you have lived in countries that do not fear the Commies and allow them to prosper without fear and favor, then you know that they know what democracy is all about, a country FOR, OF and BY the people, and everyone has equal opportunity to get compete and get rich if he has the guts and the brains. In the Philippines, it is all chat-chat! They do not even know the real president and a bogus one no matter how powerful she thinks she is just because she can elevate anyone to higher position without the approval of some agency most responsible for approving and confirming such position, and just because she has free access now to all government funds to bribe her fellow crooks with. That in a nutshell is what the Bansot’s government is all about.
Now, Filipinos have a choice—to remove or not to remove this bogus president whatever the means! By God, please don’t prolong any longer the sufferings of Filipinos who are being indocrinated that their only salvation from poverty and a lifetime of misery is to be either a super atsay/atsoy or a super prostituta!!!
Susmaryosep! PATALSIKIN NA, NOW NA! Ano pa ang hinihintay ninyo, you slowpokes!!!
Bokyo on Tue, 26th Sep 2006 8:28 pm
Our problem really is that we, especially our government institutions, are just pushing actions and decisions selectively. There are so many wrong calls and no-calls (it may also be untimely or being delayed intentionally) if we are to compare it to a referee officiating a basketball contest. Our justice system should just, in good faith, render decisions the way they see it and we as good citizens abide by it. We should also establish first and exhaust everything in our hands to find out what really happened before we go into the process of finding solutions or actions. If we will always say that “let us just move on” we are also just allowing somebody or something to escape unchecked which will render our future decisions wrongly affected as well. I hope that let us really find a way that we can work together to fine tune our process in order to enjoy better democracy.
Global Pinoy on Tue, 26th Sep 2006 10:38 pm
DJB,
Thanks, The proposed ‘ammendment’ is a dubious and devious initiative.
justice league on Tue, 26th Sep 2006 11:00 pm
rego,
I’m going to guess that you probably urinated the stone out. I’m going to guess again that you and your Attending Physician don’t know each other. That’s likely to happen in HMOs. Still your AP should paid more attention to your needs. But you should be thankful to your nurse. An institution like St. Luke’s usually guards a patient’s chart and photocopying anything will need the consent of your AP.
Stomach ache, chalk that one to hospital food.
DJB,
That the People’s Initiative is self defeating because it needs a law; you have a point but I must disagree on the whole.
THe Swiss have been engaged in their own “Popular Initiative” to amend their own Constitution for over a CENTURY already. yet their own Charter mandats that a Federal law must be provided. The Swiss Parliament was just more conscientious than our Congress. The Federal law provides the guidelines for the initiatives. It mandates that a group of at least 7 INITIATORS serve as the initiative Committee, only 18 months are allotted from the beginning of gathering 100,000 signatures, etc…. If they fail to get those many sigantures in that time frame, then the Initiative fails.
justice league on Tue, 26th Sep 2006 11:19 pm
DJB,
I have to disagree on the Triviality issue. Even the Swiss are content on what they. On the one hand, they can call for the Parliament to revise the charter.
A few years ago, an initiative was conducted to amend their provision on women’s health. the impact would have been large even with a simple amendment. Abortion would have been totally illegal unless the mother’s life was in danger. they lost there and the fallout was huge.
Abortion laws were actually liberalized more after that.
justice league on Wed, 27th Sep 2006 12:14 am
Ex Pres. Estrada is not on trial in the Supreme Court. His hearing is at the Sandigan BAyan.
I’m going to tell you something that happened in the trial. They tried a verification of whether the amount of money allegedly given is plausible under the circumstances. THe witness (Singson) related perviously that the money was contained in certain type of boxes. So the boxes were prepared and filled with money.
Totalled up, it amounted to only 2/3 the amount said to be involved. the defense had a field day with that finding saying that it disproves the allegations.
Now, the boxes were filled up with bundles of 1000 and 500 peso bills (since they had the same dimensions as the 1000). Those bills were loaned from the Central Bank.
But the Central Bank does not allow “good” money to be loaned even for court purposes. what the CB did was to loan bills that were already to be shipped for destruction. Bills that were frayed, torn or even held together by scotch tape.
Anyone here play with cards? take a deck of new paper playing cards and play with it for several months. then try to insert it back into the box. Will all the cards fit?
Obviously, when one is bribed with money; you give usable money. IF INDEED Ex pres. estrada was given money, it would be in usable money and not with bills fit for destruction.
When you pack old bills together and compare them with new ones, one might notice that the new ones tend to lie flat while the old ones flay or bulge at the end or the middle depending on where they are packed. and then the discrepancy just continues when several of the same bundles are stacked over each other.
Now, is it possible that those said boxes could actually contain more money than what their experiment showed if only new or usable bills where used instead of old and damaged ones?
This theory was never put forward before the Sandigan bayan and I wonder why no member of the prosecution got wind of this.
justice league on Wed, 27th Sep 2006 12:35 am
Now that that the SC has heard the oral arguments; I think it is no longer a trump card to hold on to this piece of info.
Sovereignty resides in the people and all government authority emanates from them. But the SC has shown that this is not in total.
Back in 2001, MAMAYAN AYAW SA DROGA ran for the party list in Congress and had the second number of votes for party list next to Bayan Muna. They should have gotten the maximum 3 seats in Congress for party list seats.
But they were disqualified after the fact. Even though the sovereignty resides in the people and the people have ALREADY spoken with their votes, their voice was lost on the Supreme Court.
In a decision penned by then Justice Panganiban and concurred upon by Justice PUno (the 2 remaining justices in the SC who happened to have dissented on the PIRMA decision and actually thinks that there is an enabling law for the people’s initiative) MAD was disqualified from holding any seat as IT WAS NOT SUPPOSED TO HAVE BEEN QUALIFIED TO JOIN AS A PARTY LIST GROUP.
I think the SC balance the voice of the people with the voice of reason.
Torn, you actually have jurisprudence on your side.
tbl on Wed, 27th Sep 2006 1:18 am
suing someone is really not a good idea. most of the time problems occur because of miscommunication. problems can be solved by proper dialogs between two parties involved (in majority of cases).
i know for a fact that mds have nothing in their minds but to serve the patient, make them better and perhaps prolong the life of the patient, not to mention lessen their sufferings, depending on the particular patient involed.
rego on Wed, 27th Sep 2006 2:42 am
Justice league, thats exactly what happened, I myself ended guessing that I may have urinated teh stobne when I read that something like scratch in my urinary tract that got infected…And even uyse that as expalination when I got back to work. Your right ther was really a very poor communication with my AP but it more on him not on me. I did try hard contacting him but I am always told that he out of office. And when I was discharged, I was told that he is out of the country. And yes of course the nures just did me a big favor by photocopying the medical records. Kahit uncle ko na doctor pinagalitan ako when I brought to him all those records.
yes tbl, there is really no point to sue that AP. Afterall there was no further damage don. Im just pissed everytime im reminded of such event.
rego on Wed, 27th Sep 2006 2:51 am
Susmaryosep! PATALSIKIN NA, NOW NA! Ano pa ang hinihintay ninyo, you slowpokes!!!
Yuko,
Its just so easy to say this…. But come to think of it. This exactly what we have done to Erap. And look what mess do we have now….Thats is why I feel that if we have to depose Gloria it should only be through an impeachment proceeding. Yung talang complete proceedings, with all the evidence presented and verdict is out from the impeachment court.
Everybody knows that throwing Gloria out would is just so easy with people power or a military coup or civil disobendience. But people know better now. Personally I believe its just so shortsighted to just depose Gloria by people power or military coup.
torn on Wed, 27th Sep 2006 2:18 pm
Before this interesting discussion completely dies out, may I say that I am proud to have taken part in a significant first — the first discussion in internet history to seamlessly blend constitutional law, kidney stones, the difference between an amendment and a revision, caeserian section, and Erap all at the same time.
mlq3 on Wed, 27th Sep 2006 3:24 pm
everyone -torn, djb, rego et al- i’ve only had a chance to really weigh in now.
re: estrada. my opinion stems from an observation made by quite a few others, which is the plebiscatory nature of our democracy. great politcal divisions have been addressed by means of turning particular elections into a kind of plebiscite (particularly in the 20s and 30s) where the fight was viewed as a settlement of a question. since national elections for the senate began, individual senatorial contests have also been viewed as referenda on leadership questions (laurel for example) and campaigned as such; while the mid-term senate elections have become viewed as indirect referenda on the sitting administration (quirino, macapagal, marcos most notably). remember the elections of may, 2001 were fought as a referendum on edsa dos (succesfuly so, for the edsa dos camp, a repudiation began with the 2004 elections).
we assume estrada would win: and he just might, but remember he would have to win massively, too, and cheating aside, that may not be the case. i do think it’s harmful to drag out his case and we have to trust the electorate to decide the issue, because i’m no longer convinced the courts can do so. what i think is pretty remote, is that in case you could run estrada for the presidency, he’d win.
the public in its wisdom elected gringo honasan to the senate so he could put up or shut up -and proved incapable of causing much trouble, but kept him within the political system. it could do the same thing to estrada. he represents an authentic constituency and it deserves representation -as well as a kind of insurance that was lost with estrada’s being put in jail. previous presidents, once out of office, were left alone and the peace maintained. when estrada was locked up we guaranteed his successors would have to contemplate a similar fate and the president’s proving no sitting president will take that lightly (fvr regularly gets called by the senate, too, and since he didn’t get his anointed elected president it’s been trouble for him since 1998).
i’m not advocating a direct plebiscite on estrada. but you can’t stop him for running for the senate (or even the House, or mayor, but that’s small potatoes, politically) unless you abolish the senate -and you wouldn’t be able to stop him from turning his candidacy into a referendum on himself. such a victory wouldn’t stop prosecution before the courts, but you’d make him less of a martyr.
personally, i think we should go the way of the french and make plebiscites more of an integral part of our politics. not just nationally, but locally.
torn on Wed, 27th Sep 2006 4:26 pm
previous presidents, once out of office, were left alone and the peace maintained.
— But that’s not quite true. The two presidents who were kicked out of office for their misdemeanors, Marcos and Estrada, were pursued by the courts and rightly so. Marcos was exiled and Estrada jailed awaiting trial
The way Erap and Marcos left office has to be taken into account. I don’t think it is possible to equate Marcos and his helicopter and Erap and his barge with the orderly and constitutional ends of the Aquino and Ramos presidencies.
Although I would have been opposed to it at the time, perhaps Gloria could have followed Gerald Ford’s line with Nixon and pardoned Estrada for any crimes he may have committed (i.e., the pardon comes before the judgment). That’s a weird and morally shaky position to take but in terms of healing wounds it would have been better than the impasse we have had for over 5 years now.
Either that or the Yanks could have provided a plane and whisked Erap off to Hawaii.
I do completely agree about more direct democracy though. As Justice League pointed out above, the model is Switzerland, where if you want to blow your nose you have to hold a referendum. Developments in IT will make this possible and bring this much abused term democracy closer to the original Athenian model.
There are only two problems: (i) implementation of these referenda will depend on the political class (which will of course feel threatened by being cut out of the decision-making loop), and (ii) the old problem — how are they to be policed and run fairly?
cvj on Wed, 27th Sep 2006 5:25 pm
As a way of going about resolving our national problems, we have a choice of turning towards the Athenian direct-democracy model, or alternatively, falling-back on the Platonic philosopher-king route. Right now, many are still hoping for a Messiah (increasingly in the form of the military), but as Justice League has alluded to in his analogy above, we have so far gotten only Barabbas. Our history shows that it is unrealistic to expect a Jesus-equivalent to come along. In the absence of an assured supply of wise philosopher-kings, a turn towards the plebiscitary model is, probabilistically speaking, the less risky choice. Technology wise, as long as the people can text in their votes, i think this system can be incorporated into the people’s daily lives.
rego on Wed, 27th Sep 2006 6:16 pm
“the public in its wisdom elected gringo honasan to the senate so he could put up or shut up -and proved incapable of causing much trouble, but kept him within the political system. it could do the same thing to estrada. he represents an authentic constituency and it deserves representation -as well as a kind of insurance that was lost with estrada’s being put in jail.”
With Loi and Jinggoy in teh Senate and JV on as a mayor I feel that the estrada constituents is over represented already. If Erap runs for seanate Im very sure he will win. Its only a question of topping the election or not. And then what??
Chabeli on Wed, 27th Sep 2006 7:03 pm
Regarding ERAP:
Doesn’t Gloria also drink HEAVILY? Oh, the spanish cuss words she says when she’s wasted! The way she berrates people! And ERAP is worse, huh?
Now What, Cat? » Blog Archive » The Bloodless Coup in Thailand-a copycat? on Wed, 27th Sep 2006 9:14 pm
[...] But wait ’till you read Ramon Farolan’s Don’t Cry for Thailand where he wrote about the two generals involved in the coup being PMA graduates batch 81. (via Mlq3). [...]
justice league on Wed, 27th Sep 2006 9:15 pm
There are many groups that have allied together to fight the so called “people’s initiative” in the Supreme Court.
These groups should bear in mind that another fight is looming in the Supreme Court and that is whether the House of Representatives can go at it alone to revise/amend the Contitution in the CONASS mode.
What ever argument that is going to be used in the current case might just come back to haunt the groups in the next case so they should be wary of what arguments to put forward and what arguments of the other protagonists that must be let go.
There is an old story/rumor about CM Recto or Dakila Castro ( I just can’t remember who of the 2). The story goes that the lawyer concerned won 2 cases using one argument in one and countering it in the other before the same judge.
It was said that the judge was surprised to hear him counter the same argument he used in the other case before.
He supposedly remarked that “Your honor I am now most certain as could ever be that I WAS WRONG IN THE PREVIOUS CASE”
If this story proves to be true; I don’t think we can be that lucky to get away with it.
cvj on Wed, 27th Sep 2006 10:48 pm
“And then what??” – Rego
…and then we move on.
torn on Thu, 28th Sep 2006 8:34 am
CJJ — I think this point was well addressed by Bokyo above:
“We should also establish first and exhaust everything in our hands to find out what really happened before we go into the process of finding solutions or actions. If we will always say that “let us just move on†we are also just allowing somebody or something to escape unchecked which will render our future decisions wrongly affected as well.”
The key word is accountability. That’s what is missing in the Philippines. I was talking yesterday to an Indian friend who had recently returned to Manila. India is of course another flawed democracy, with many of exactly the same problems as here. Still, as she put it, at least progress is being made and politicians are regarded as answerable for their actions. Not so here, where the rich and powerful can literally get away with murder. You think Palparan is going to receive justice (unless it is an NPA bullet in the head)?
I’m with Bokyo — this “moving on” thing supposes that we will “move on” to a clean sheet whereas in fact we will simply “move on” with even more baggage than before. Moving on from Edsa 2 will probably just mean the victory of the Estrada forces.
And on that point, I think Rego put it well:
With Loi and Jinggoy in teh Senate and JV on as a mayor I feel that the estrada constituents is over represented already.
cvj on Thu, 28th Sep 2006 12:36 pm
Torn, you and Bokyo are of course right. However, we in the anti-Erap camp can only demand accountability if we ourselves come with clean hands. Those who have opposed Erap are constrained to demand the same standards from Arroyo. If we are seen to take the position (as many have) that ‘yes we know Arroyo cheated, but we forgive her just the same’, then all bets are off. Before Garci, the EDSA 2 crowd can still exercise moral suasion. After Austero, that option is not there anymore. (I know that you yourself and many others here also oppose Arroyo so my apologies in advance for lumping you together with the “let’s move on” crowd, but realistically, i don’t believe the masa are into nuance.)
Bokyo on Thu, 28th Sep 2006 3:19 pm
For me, besides accountability, what we are lacking are clear decisions. We always take for granted those major things that should be cleared and decided one way or another. Para bang lagi na lang “makakalimutan din yan balang araw”. Which almost always yun nga ang nangyayari. Sa huli tayo rin ang nagsu-suffer at nagko cause tuloy ng divisiveness. Justice is not all about winning cases or letting somebody punished. It is about seeing everything is being done to arrive at the truth. Mas madali sa yung kalooban yung kahit natalo ka man ay nakita mo ng malinaw ang lahat. Then mas masarap mag “move on” di ba?
john marzan on Fri, 29th Sep 2006 5:05 pm
so bakit pa nag edsa dos and go extra-constitutional? eh mananalo naman pala eh. sana naghintay na lang until the may 2001 elections para makuha ang majority sa senado at ma impeach ng tuluyan si erap.
john marzan on Fri, 29th Sep 2006 5:27 pm
he needs to win “massively” too? as in maging senatorial topnotcher siya? sa loob ng kulungan?
oh erap will win a senate seat kung tumakbo siya, manuel. and it’s not exactly that hard to do since you only need to place in the top 12. kung nagawa ni jinggoy yan, siya pa.
i just don’t see the point of him running for the senate, that’s all.
indirect referendum on this admin? hindi ba “referendum” na rin yung 2004 presidential elections na ninakaw ni arroyo? balak raw ni JV ejercito na tumakbo sa senado, and he’ll probably win too, dahil lang sa surname niya. tapos papatakbuhin mo pa si erap.
don’t we have enough estradas in the senate already, kuya m?
i have to disagree. kung may special elections, at pinayagang magkampanya si erap sa labas ng kulungan niya, there’s a good chance that he might win. (hindi ba survey after post edsa dos survey show na mas popular pa si erap kaysa kay gma?)
but do we really want another erap presidency? I say no. enough! the fact na rego is making more sense to me shows how bizarro the idea is, mlq3.
mlq3 on Fri, 29th Sep 2006 5:38 pm
john, the electoral option points to how bankrupt the administration is, in terms of lacking popular support. estrada clings to the fiction he’s still president, and the signs are he intends to cling to it.
but in case he abandoned that fantasy, it would present a formidable threat to the admin. it can count its lucky stars estrada prefers to cling to his illusions.
personally i don’t see an end to the hostility between estrada’s constituency and the constituency clinging to the admin. that hostility’s being fed by estrada facing the prospect of death by lethal injection should he be convicted -or his being played with while the admin decides what, if anything, it should do.
i think most people are sensible enough not to want either an estrada restoration or a brand new estrada presidency. and if things were allowed to play out in an election -any election- it might finally help dislodge the cork that’s kept pressure building up. at least half the pressure, since the admin also won’t budge.
of course we can also debate if this couldn’t have all been solved by one of three things:
1. if estrada had formally resigned
2. if he’d simply left the country
3. if the public had apprehended him at the palace and lynched him
4. if he’d been swiftly tried or swiftly pardoned
but none of these things happened, so what would you have those who support him do?
john marzan on Fri, 29th Sep 2006 9:45 pm
hindi ba wala nang death penalty?
para sa akin, wala na talagang kinalaman si erap sa takbo ng bansa natin after 2001 (responsibilidad ni arroyo yan) o kung anong ginawa ni arroyo at garci noong 2004.
erap’s a thing of the past. erap’s sooooo 2001. let’s not give erap any more ideas, okay? besides, i expect the courts to find him guilty, then arroyo will pardon erap. kung hindi tinanggap ni erap yung pardon, hindi na problema ni arroyo yan.
basta ma-pardon na si erap, matutuwa na ang mga supporters niya, since ibig sabihin niyan ay makakalaya na si erap. pati majority ng mga bishops sa CBCP (yung mga maka-arroyo) matutuwa rin at pupuriin nila si GMA for this “great humanitarian gesture” and act of mercy that goes a long way to heal the deep divisions within our country. i’m sure may konting aangal, pero overall, majority approves.
john marzan on Fri, 29th Sep 2006 9:46 pm
It seems clear, though, that the government can’t afford a verdict handed down either way (if Estrada is acquitted, administration allies will rebel
i don’t believe so. yung mga “idealists” na kakampi ni Arroyo –sila yung most likely na magagalit, katulad nung nagalit sila nung nalaman nila ang garapalan na pagnanakaw sa boto– noong edsa dos ay nagsi-alisan o iniwanan na si GMA.
Ang natitira na lang na supporters ni arroyo ay yung mga so-called “realists”. yan ang mga taong susuporta kay arroyo kahit na alam nilang ninakaw niya ang election at may authoritarian tendencies ang corrupt pangulo nila, dahil natatakot silang mapunta sa opposition ang malacanang.
“realists”. ganyan rin ang tawag sa mga marcos loyalists dati.
ganyan rin ang polisiya ng US noong 1970’s to early 80’s sa pilipinas at mga ibang latin american countries at sa middle east.
cvj on Sat, 30th Sep 2006 1:04 am
John, my impression is that the Marcos loyalists (those who rallied regularly at the Luneta during Cory’s time) were mostly idealists. I agree with you that the main difference now is that there are no die-hard Arroyo-loyalists. I can’t imagine anyone would be willing to take a bullet for the current occupants of Malacanang. As a result, a disproportionate share of Arroyo’s support comes from elitists and balimbings who would have no trouble shifting allegiance to a military junta.
john marzan on Sat, 30th Sep 2006 5:06 pm
you’re right, cvj. i should not have included the marcos loyalists. hindi sila mga “realists”. mga fanatics rin sila, katulad ng mga supporters ni estrada.
Bencard on Mon, 2nd Oct 2006 4:51 am
GMA created die-hard enemies from the moment she assumed the presidency. One senator, Aquilino Pimentel, was at the grandstand holding an umbrella for her while she was taking the oath of office at Edsa. Not long after, the man was boud-mouthing GMA at every turn. Ditto w/ Teofisto Guingona who after being chosen vice president by GMA, spearheaded the failed attempts to oust her. The hatred of GMA’s enemies intensified when she decided to run for reelection in 2004. When she won, desperate detractors and “wannabees” had to question her legitimacy on the basis of wiretapped conversation of unproven authenticity. Too bad, many are gullible enough to join the hatemongering through use of anti-GMA insults and hateful epithets.
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