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Jan 17

Cory’s Nyet

In the Inquirer, there’s this article: Philippine future bleak, says Bear Stearns analyst. This analyst was the one I quoted in a blog entry last year: The President’s “sweet spot”.

According to the article,

Stuermer described the economy as “very resilient,” noting that the last time the gross domestic product contracted was in the wake of the Asian financial crisis in 1997.

Even then, he said, the contraction was due to the drought-inducing El Niño weather disruption, which cut agricultural output. “It is very hard to make the Philippine economy collapse in any given year.”

The Bear Stearns analyst believed, however, that this resilience would be the country’s undoing.

“The downside is this: There is now a downside for bad political behavior,” he said. “The Philippines’ political class has no incentive for good political behavior.” [surely, a typo? surely he meant, there’s now no downside?]

Because the bulk of economic growth still depends on agricultural output, which is largely immune from politics, political squabbles can only depress growth by so much.

This is precisely what having “two Philippines” is about. One Philippines desperately fighting for the crumbs from a government increasingly hungry itself (and increasingly incapable of exercising even the most basic restraint), and the other Philippines directly feeding off our economic refugees working abroad.

The papers focus on Cory Aquino’s statement declining to attend the Council of State meeting:

Aquino shuns Palace meet: Warns of prolonged political turmoil (Inquirer)

Cory rejects Council of State invite (Standard -Today)

Aquino rejects Council of State invite amid legitimacy question: Cory, Estrada step up Gloria quit call (Daily Tribune)

Cory to boycott Council of State: Says Gloria continues to muddle issues (Malaya)

RG Cruz has the Palace reply to Mrs. Aquino, and Miriam Defensor Santiago’s statement, too: one commenter in my blog says publishing the full and unexpurgated statements of people is an important function of blogs.

The Senators have circled the wagons, it seems:

More senators join anti-ChaCha fight (Standard-Today)

Joker: One more scandal will KO Gloria
But on the other hand, Charter change supporters resorting to people’s initiative.

Something curious is going on, like the game, Where in the World is Carmen San Diego? Except in which military camp is escaped putschists Faeldon? Or like that traveling statue of a garden gnome which gets photographed in tourist spots around the world:

Now Faeldon has stills and video of him at Crame (Manila Times)
Faeldon enters PNP headquarters unnoticed (Daily Tribune)
Faeldon strikes anew, visits Camp Crame (Malaya)
Of course, Sassy Lawyer has already made her tart observations about what everyone saw coming, but anyway, it happened: Lozano refiles impeach complaint against GMA. The only question is, does the opposition have the discipline to black list the complaint, so that the only way it gets approved is if an administration lackey endorses it?

The Palace denies the “brat pack” formed story.

The BRP Ang Pangulo, the presidential yacht, suffered an accident. A fire broke out while the ship was being refitted in Batangas. The Inquirer story says the ship was bought for $3 million in 1959, but from what I’ve read, the ship was part of the reparations paid by Japan for World War II. Under President Garcia, the ship was known as the Lapu-Lapu; Macapagal renamed it the Roxas, and vowed to sell it; Marcos named it Ang Pangulo and it escaped during Edsa to bring stuff to Hong Kong.

In the punditocracy,

Chin Wong has an interesting piece on how the Philippines is prepared for e-government.

Alex Magno says those who can, amend; those who can’t, oppose:

Those who have the time and the energy to spare imagining other formulas have that luxury precisely because they are in no position to do anything about our political system. They might have the sound bites and might be able to wangle some media space, but the bottom line is that they do not have the power nor the organization to do anything about their imagined alternatives.

Lakas, by contrast, has the organization, the elected base, the logistics, the plan and the audacity to undertake the urgent constitutional reform the nation needs. It is the only party in a position to do anything about a situation that most of us can only whine about.

Of course, the vision Lakas espouses has been clarified through the prism of party interest and the political survival of some of its leading members. Of course, the plan Lakas espouses is something that does not endanger the political agenda of its elected constituency. These are not matters worth arguing about.

Altruism is something that, by nature, the powerless demand of the power wielders. Altruism is a virtue to those who can do nothing to shape the way history transforms.

Political practicality, on the other hand, is the adhesive by which coalitions are formed. It is practical men who get things done.

Dong Puno, however, suggests the formulation of the referendum questions might consolidate opposition to the proposed amendments:

The party will apparently take no official position on No-El but will refer the matter to the people as one of two questions to be propounded in the plebiscite to be held as early as June of this year. The first question reportedly will be: Do you approve of the amendments? The second will be: Do you want elections for all elective officials under the parliamentary system in May 2007 (or, alternatively, May 2010)?

A number of things stand out. First, the people, if the above formulation of questions is adopted, will be asked to accept all the proposed amendments in all-or-nothing fashion, as in hook, line and sinker.

If you, for instance, argue for a unicameral but Presidential system, as did the minority in the Consultative Commission, you would have to vote no. If you have reservations about federalism, you would also have to vote “no.” The new Constitution would put the nation on an irreversible path towards a federal state, although the precise timing and procedure for this process is still up in the air, probably by design.

If you are in favor of some, but not all, of the proposed easing of restrictions on foreign investment and equity ownership, or if you would like to put more restrictions than those set forth in the draft revised Constitution, you would again have to vote “no” because you would not be able to choose only the specific “liberalized” provisions you deem appropriate, while rejecting those you believe constitute an unnecessary sell-out of our national heritage and sovereignty.

Most of all, there doesn’t seem to be any mechanism for asking the people what they think about the proposal to allow the President and other officials elected for terms of office expiring in 2010 to serve out their Constitutional terms. Even if No-El is rejected, and elections for a new Parliament are held in 2007, all those with elective terms until 2010 would still remain in office until that year.

Carmen Guerrero Nakpil pans TV presenters.

Tony Abaya says a New Magsaysay is needed, but can only arise extraconstitutionally.

In the blogosphere, The Sassy Lawyer announces she’s working on a book (which, I think this early on, promises to be a best seller).

Men’s Fun Philippines on entertaining foreigners, and the ethics of accepting either Karaoke or massage parlor freebies in relation to corporate work.

Global Voices on line has some tasty tidbits: The President of South Korea keeps three blogs; Singaporean blogger Xiaxue is in deep doo-doo for something potentially racist she said.

Poynteronline lauds New York Times op-ed columnists making their columns available as podcasts.

BuzzMachine fulminates against Google and splog fraud.

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46 comments

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  1. joey legarda

    maybe is more prudent that cory talk less
    just a reminder for those w/ short memories
    in her presedency she can be credited w/ land reform
    in the same way hacienda luisita was also well protected.
    large parcel of land where already sold for commercial & industrial use w/ the proceds going to…guess who’s pockets?
    they can also let go of the farm today but sure that theu recover what ever they lose.
    but then again every president is only human.
    today she gives a litany of excuses.
    but it’s only a way out of an embarassing situation.
    because cory just like many others where quick to judge & make conclussions using a poluted source of evidence that will not even stand up in court.
    she rode the tied that brought her somwhere else & made her irrelevant.
    she appointed herself as the “goddes of morality”
    but she was also a president once & looked after protecting her families interest.
    don’t get me wrong.
    just that there is something that does not connect.

  2. ricelander

    Yeah, and GMA was the best thing that ever happened, right Joey?

  3. cvj

    Joey, it’s still a (partly)free country so Cory can talk all she wants. It’s up to each of us of course to listen.

  4. juned

    Hi Manolo,
    As usual a thorough coverage of the latest headline news. As to Cory’s Nyet and morality, I tend to agree to what Joey said that it would be prudent for her to talk less, although I think that it would be equally prudent not take any statement from Cory – or for any person whether they be politician,clergy or laymen – as an Ex Cathedra. As the Romans are fond of telling their heroes and leaders – look back.

    Respice post te! Hominem te esse memento

    Look behind you! Remember that you are but a man!

    It applies to everyone.

  5. joey legarda

    i’m not saying that.if you read what i wrote.i also said cory was too quick to make judgment & conclussions…….
    my point is.it’s wrong to be too quick to make conclussions when you don’t have the proper evidence.
    if this issue is being protracted.it’s certainly because people have taken a stand based on things that will not stand up in court.ask any lawyer even a 3 time flanker.
    cory will go back to praying.buti naman there are still people who pray.
    it’s nice to pray also.nobody contradicts you or questions you.

  6. Jon Mariano

    IMHO, national personalities still command some respect in some quarters, especially their supporters. So when they issue statements such as Cory Aquino did, it is bound to be a factor in some peoples’ politics. For those against GMA, this statement will further stoke their anger against the president. And I believe that is Cory’s purpose in issuing that statement. So it might be that sometime in the future when Cory calls for some bodies to go to the streets, there will be more who will come. As I said, Cory believes in what she’s doing. Maybe she’s just like Oliver Lozano who re-filed the impeachment complaint because he loves his country!

    I say that is admirable because not all of us will stand to what we believe in even if the chances of success is low. Some of us will just join if we’re sure of winning.

  7. manuelbuencamino

    joey,

    It will not stand up in court because the tapes cannot be used as evidence. To say she did no wrong because the evidence that proves her participation in and/or tolerance of criminal acts cannot be used is quite a big leap.

    You shouldn’t let lawyers guide you about what is right and wrong.
    Lawyers can only tell you what you can get away with legally. That’s all. They don’t dabble in right or wrong.

    For example, premarital sex is legal but it is wrong if it’s your sister or daughter involved and especially if it’s your fiancee doing it with someone else. They won’t tell you about it if they can help it. In the same manner, Gloria won’t talk about the tapes because what she did will offend everyone except those with whom she shared her bed. The point is, Gloria did something wrong and, instead of straightening things out, she chooses to lie and suppress it. That’s what Cory and other level-headed people care about.
    That’s what you should care about instead of looking for lame excuses for Gloria’s behavior as caught on tape.

    Manolo.

    And I suppose the Senators are not the Indians. hehehe

  8. mlq3

    hahaha the indians circled their own wagons long ago!

  9. baycas

    what’s left of cory’s moral integrity (regardless if she is self-appointed or not – depending on one’s perspective) will NOT lend credibility to gloria’s questionable authority. that’s the whole point of cory’s refusal to attend and all her excuses (however lame they may be to some).

    prudence was represented as a man with three heads, as pictured in the mind of titian (a 16th century venetian artist): first was that of a youth facing the future, second was that of a mature man looking at the present, and the third head was of a wise man gazing at the past. above this depiction, he wrote in latin: “from the example of the past, the man of the present acts prudently so as not to imperil the future.”

    our past failures taught us how not to repeat the same mistakes in the future. i believe cory is just making the prudent stand…the way she knows how…

  10. joey legarda

    manuelbuencamino,your right i agree w/ you.
    beleaving in something is one thing.proving it is the gard part.
    Pls. anyoned help me to understand.How a tape you don’t know who did it how it was done.to this day no one comming forward to admit to have done it be so credible?
    how can something be so “gospel truth” that should have been relaesed during the canvassing when pimentel was filibustering as if waiting for a sign from heaven that there was cheating & yet nothing came out?
    How is it possible to gather so many conclussions from a source that is very questionable?

    everyday of our life we are bombarded by advertising w/ a pretty face & a beautiful voice that does not even belong to the face to sell us all possible things.

    why aren’t those who made the tape admitting to their work?why?
    Since when does a victim admit to something unjustly pin on him?

    I’m sure we are all educated people.Im sure that education has diciplined our minds to analize, rationalize, evaluate, not to take things for their face value, ask question to better understand motives.I don’t remember being thought that my personal feelings are very important to make conclussions.I know that there are subjective & objective feelings.
    I know that when I go to a bank to barrow money I should have colateral & not just tell the that I “feel” i will be lucky that I can pay you back.
    I don’t even to to a judge saying I “feel” X commited a crime when I did not see anything.
    Pgma can defend herself & she is doing it very well.unfortunately to other peoples disgust.

    I’m reasoning from the point of view of reason & logic & fairness.
    We never know one day we might find ourselves on the other end of the gun & who knows what we would fill.

    I’m also aware that we might be talking at different levels.
    maybe that is why there is no end to anything in this country.

    Yes,I appreciate what Cory did to restore our democracy.That also does not mean that she can’t make mistakes.I think as humans we have to move on & adjust to the times.we can’t rest on our past glories & be complaisant.

    there is a the real world where things are not as plesant as in the imagined world of feelings & perceptions.
    the question is can we really compit because we use our god given faculties.
    Or will we just conclude that if we don’t get what we want there is surely something wrong w/ the other & conviently illiminate ourselves from the problem?

    Don’t get me wrong.I’m just asking questions.

  11. Jon Mariano

    Let’s start by stating the facts:
    1. There are tapes with voices of a man and a woman
    2. The man’s voice sounds like Garcillano, and the woman’s as GMA’s.
    3. Experts verified the tapes and found not to be tampered with.
    4. The conversations seems to be about the election fraud and cheating, also kidnapping, use of military, etc.
    4. GMA said sorry that she talked to a Comelec commissioner.
    5. Bunye presented the tapes first. He said one was authentic, the other not. The other tape had Edgar Ruado’s voice instead of that that sounds like Garcillano.

    Any other facts out there?

  12. Jon Mariano

    Let’s start by stating the facts:
    1. There are tapes with voices of a man and a woman
    2. The man’s voice sounds like Garcillano, and the woman’s as GMA’s.
    3. Experts verified the tapes and found not to be tampered with.
    4. The conversations seems to be about the election fraud and cheating, also kidnapping, use of military, etc.
    4. GMA said sorry that she talked to a Comelec commissioner.
    5. Bunye presented the tapes first. He said one was authentic, the other not. The other tape had Edgar Ruado’s voice instead of that that sounds like Garcillano.

    Any other facts out there?

  13. Jon Mariano

    Let’s start by stating the facts:
    1. There are tapes with voices of a man and a woman
    2. The man’s voice sounds like Garcillano, and the woman’s as GMA’s.
    3. Experts verified the tapes and found not to be tampered with.
    4. The conversations seems to be about the election fraud and cheating, also kidnapping, use of military, etc.
    4. GMA said sorry that she talked to a Comelec commissioner.
    5. Bunye presented the tapes first. He said one was authentic, the other not. The other tape had Edgar Ruado’s voice instead of that that sounds like Garcillano.

    Any other facts out there?

  14. Jon Mariano

    sorry for the double/triple post…, there was a problem when I was posting. MLQ3, please cleanup my mess a little bit (including this mea culpa!). Thanks.

  15. cvj

    [Apologies in advance for any double posts as well. The filter program has been quite temperamental lately..]

    Where does the Bear, Stearns & Co. analyst get the percentage values attached to his predictions? Must be a trade secret. Anyway, i find his highlighting of agriculture’s useful role in stabilizing the economy enlightening. However, i can’t quite follow his logic. Does he mean that having a famine would be a blessing of sorts?

  16. baycas

    “Pls. anyoned help me to understand.How a tape you don’t know who did it how it was done.to this day no one comming forward to admit to have done it be so credible?”

    …will the men of isafp’s mig21 please come forward and finally do us a favor to admit the whole thing.

    “how can something be so “gospel truth” that should have been relaesed during the canvassing when pimentel was filibustering as if waiting for a sign from heaven that there was cheating & yet nothing came out?”

    …granting insurance-guy honesto general is right on his assumption that the hello, garci tapes are studio fakes…he averred that one year is required to gather voice clips of gloria and garci to come up with the “spliced” conversations. his assertions may be plausible but they are actually absurd as to randy david’s “hermeneutics and ethnomethodology.” does the timing of the release of the tapes really be of the essence when in fact there’s still some truth to the phrase “walang lihim na di nabubunyag?” sooner or later “the big lie” has to come out.

    “How is it possible to gather so many conclussions from a source that is very questionable?”

    …anyone who has obliged himself to painstakingly listen to the tapes (including bunye’s and chavit’s) would gather enough conclusions from the “smoking gun” so to speak. one only has to have ear/s and the gray matter in between to deduce that gloria (hate to type this all over again for someone) lied, cheated, stole, and did a cover-up!

    —–

    it may be right to assume that a thing is not what it seems to be just like there is “truth” in advertising. but did joey ever think that the upright gloria is not what she seems to be while i think that joey is really an intelligent guy (from his good command of the English language) just intentionally misspelling (or “mistyping”) words?

  17. dodong

    Let’s see it this way.

    All the facts about the tape are irrelevant because the evidence and its sources are legally inadmissible. That would put the presidency of Arroyo to rest. But the truth is, it did not.

    The people who elected Arroyo with plurality of votes are convinced that Arroyo cheated her way to the presidency. Arroyo’s own admission of lapse of judgment was helping nailing her coffin. Cory Aquino and Fidel Ramos, along with rest of the nation, may have voted for her but now are united that Arroyo is losing the trust of her office as president.

    There is nothing you can do to restore that trust except to resign according to Cory Aquino. There is something you can do to restore that trust by cutting short your term through constitutional process (ChaCha) according to Fidel Ramos.

    At the end of the day, the political turmoil is neither about Cory Aquino, nor of Fidel Ramos, not even the people. It is about Gloria Arroyo’s cheating and holding on to her office.

    I admire the honesty and conviction of both past presidents. Only if Gloria Arroyo can see the wisdom of her past admission (of lapse of judgment) and take ownership and responsibility of her personal action, that would put to rest this political uncertainty. Power like alcohol is intoxicating and Gloria is still in the state of denial.

  18. baycas

    #9: the third head btw was a wise OLD man gazing at the past…

  19. Karl

    Re: Tape

    Bush vis a vis Arroyo

    Bush can justify his wire tapping because, he can use the “war on terror” trump card

    Gloria cannot use the”win at all cost trump card”

    Who has the capability of ordering wire tapping other than Malacanang

    anyone who fakes the voice of the president will be dead even before it will be exposed…

    rewind …who exposed it in the first place…

    malacnang spin masters won’t allow their president to be used, unless they are the ones who are doing the using…

    sorry Joey we differ on the part where Gloria must resign…

    She must!

  20. joey legarda

    Karl welcome back,guess is really keeping you busy,any sales pa?

  21. joey legarda

    Jon, what we all have a parts of a puzzle.all these pieces are part of something bigger.in the strick sence of the words they are not the facts yet.
    1.yes it’s true that there is a tape.
    unless the one who did it comes out & explains how it was done, what technology was used etc..The tapes are useless.
    just as i have said already.the tapes sole purpose was to saw division & doubt & to exploit the conditions for sinester motives.
    2.yes they “sound” like garci & pgma.
    we always go back to #1.the ones who did the tapes how they did it for it to recognized legal.

    remember during the counting in congress.pimentel filibustering endless hours.as if he was waiting for something to happen and nothing did.why was not the tape released then?could it be because they where still trying to perfect the technology in making it “doctor”?
    the tapes came out insted when pgma’s ratings where at the lowest because of unpopular economic reforms that she has been doing.has it ever occured to you why the timing was hiting on pgma’s low ratings?
    i just don’t know if we just have short memories when it comes to seeing the bigger picture of things.or that we have selective memories.
    the evil doers of this tapes are playing w/ our human weakneses & our thrist for intrigue, excitment, our curiosities & mystery.
    work is boring & nakakapagud pa nga

    3.when one makes a “doctored” master tape & makes copy of it,naturaly the copies will be clean cuz the master was already doktored earlier.even the experts can’t do anything about that.they will demand for the original to make final judgment.however i have serious doubts the originals will ever be found.
    i remember scothland yard & the FBI said something to the effect that they will not leand ther experties to something so poluted.
    how can we deny that we leave in a technological world where faces & voices can be altered.so why did it take so long for the tape to come out?because the evil doers where perfecting the technology to fool the most people possibe.

    4.it’s not imposible that she talked to the comelec commissioner.i think she apologized for the improper act.that is different from admiting to the contents of the tapes.i think na sindak din si pgma & she had to do something about it.

    5.honestly i don’t know.all i know that bunye gtried to make damage control but since the entire garci tapes scandal was well planed tapes where distributed around the palace was cornered.
    the plan is if we can corner her but surely pgma will leave in a cloud of doubt.and many are still wittingly or unwittingly participants to the game.
    it’s a matter of fact that the tipping point was not arrived too.
    for me it can only be because just like there where many people fooled.there where more people that can’t be fooled or used.

    If only we use the same malice that demonizes our leaders to those who want to grab power in what ever means we will see a bigger picture & not be used for their games.

  22. joey legarda

    Jon, nga pala, i forgot
    the fact is we really don’t have all the facts.so it’s impossible to really make any conclussions or judgments.
    what we have is a product of our fear & insecurities & weakneses that others will forever exploit.

  23. Paeng

    there is no techonology yet to make a prefect “doctored” conversation.

    also, listen to the whole tape. not only the GMA-Garci conversations. the whole tape, including the “non-political” portions. get to know Garcillano up close (he likes congee and he seems to be fond of the Handyman store, which actually proves to be true). As Randy David said, nobody can fake three-hours of conversations which are so consistent and so unscripted.

    you only need the Ruado tapes and the X Tapes of Chavit to show that faking wiretapped conversations is difficult.

    if the tape is not hiding something, why the cover-up? (Hello Gary my ass)

    if GMA is not guilty of anything, why apologize?

    if the officials of our government did not do anything wrong, why issue EO 464?

    if the administration party is in good faith, why endorse by themselves an impeachment complaint that lacks form and substance?

    if the wiretapping was indeed made by destabilizers, why are there no investigations made by the military and the police?

    if there was political will to get behind the truth of the 2004 elections, why disregard the local NAMFREL report, which came out before the Garci tapes, that cheating happened in Mindanao?

  24. Jon Mariano

    Baycas, I had the same observation regarding Joey! Perhaps he’s like that UK male doctor who pretended to be Katie…But that’s the beauty and ugliness at the same time of the web, you can express your ideas in relative privacy.

    Joey, (1). saying that the purpose of the tapes was to sow division is not a fact, it is your interpretation.
    (2) To me, the timing is irrelevant. When Pimentel was doing his act, he truely might not have any idea that such tapes were existing. In addition, whoever did the taping are going to be liable, because doing it (wiretapping) is illegal, so we might not get anybody going forward and admit they did it. Look what’s happening to Vidal Doble, it discourages others to come forward.
    (3) I think you don’t know what you’re talking about when making “clean” copies. Ask DJB, he’ll tell you the same.
    (4) She said she talked to a Comelec commissioner, it’s not only possible, she really did it. You’r right to say that she did not own up to the contents. Very dodgy, don’t you think? Yes because at the same time, she did not disown the contents.
    (5) It’s surprising Bunye was not kicked out of the palace doing that stupid “two CD” presscon. Maybe Gloria approved of it.

  25. fencesitter

    Now we’re back to square 1 – the tape that started these all, the admission and the cover up.

    I feel sorry for you, joey, for so painstakingly defending the indefesible Gloria against the hello garci tape. i remeber Mr. Edwin Lacierda, a lawyer, expounding logically the admissability of the tape in court. Well anyway, i do not wish to debate on the matter. Teh issue is better left to knowledgeable lawyers.

    It feels good that there is somebody like Cory Aquino in todays politics. She’s the only highly respectable person left standing on high moral ground. all her reasons for not attending the State of council Meeting is appreciated by citizens like us who would like Gloria arroyo to realize that the question on ligitimacy is the most important issue to be addressed and nodt cha-cha,parliamentary system and all the blah blahs.

  26. joey legarda

    baycas,sorry nga pala for my misspelling or typing.anyway i think an arguments has won by facts.using the line about the gray matter is not so wise cuz it can backfire on whoever uses it.
    fact is that at the end of the day everything has to be proven.it’s not that what i think or others think makes something true.
    i’m sure this issue will never end also because we really do not have all the facts.

  27. joey legarda

    fencesitter, she can defend herself very well, infact to the disgust of many.
    i’m just trying be be objective.
    Jon said he does not beleave that it was ment to divide us.
    will we be discussing from different points of view if we where united?
    yes fencesitter if it is admissable then why has anybody not brought it before the courts.talk is cheap doing something is what counts!
    and that is what we are at time.A lot of hot air w/ no results!
    perceptions, emotions, shouting & screming.but we don’t get anywhere.
    have you ever woundered why it’s like that?
    are we missing out on something?
    is there something we should be doing that we are not doing so as to get results & above all be taken seriously?
    i’m just asking.i want you guys to win too,
    but maybe you should do your homeworks.

    highly respectable, good moral ground.then why did her resign gloria bring out people in the streets?
    certainly cory is a good person.but her strong stand also in a way alienated her.
    as i write i also ask questions that i don’t remember if anyone is capable of answering except through a remark or critissisim or being branded as a gloria defender.but in essence no one has better answers to give.if at this level you are not convincing what more in a bigger stage?
    in a way i’m provoking you that you articulate a convincing answer, but i’m not getting any.it will bring out more ideas.
    i hope that blogging is not about misery looking for company but something more.

    thanks to Manolo & sorry that i talk to much & misspell too

  28. joey legarda

    Paeng, i have my doubts about the technology not exsisting.
    yes it.s true.the garci tapes tapes came out after a year.chavits was done over night.it can be done but takes time.
    normaly an investigation goes down to the start of the crime.in the case of the tapes those who did it must come forward to explain many things.since they where illegal.in a way it’s a dead end.
    i think she apologized for having talked to a commisioner.but better to ask her na lang.
    i think E.O. 464 is fine. i don’t think it’s fair that senators grandstand at someone elses expence.i think that the senate has abused it’s powers.can anyone say where all those in aid of whatevers ever lead too?
    if it’s really true that the administration bit the opposition on filling an impeachment defective impeachment complaint then the opposition should get it’s act together.
    it’s starnge nga why there are no investigations.why can’t the politicans presure the military for the results of the investigation? i wounder why? is it because the military has more goods on the politicans?
    i have my doubts on that namfrel report.i remember right after the elections be it the church or namfrel did not mention that there was massive cheating.it was only after the garci tapes came out.

  29. baycas

    one may say that the sinister plans of the opposition (to wrest power from the incumbent) just put a balance with the sinister plans of gloria et al (to hold on to power). unless the three factors of malcolm gladwell’s “tipping point” are met there can never be a tilt in this balance for us to move on to whatever lies ahead – either gloria is finally ousted or gloria is once again trusted.

    as to the tapes again…it was just unfortunate that the opposition bungled in the handling of them (and rizalist was right in saying: “only the opposition can save gma”).

    dissociating the tapes from the opposition, i still believe the hello, garci tapes are the “real mccoy” and one can dispute my claim all he wants up to no end (AS LONG AS we’ve both listened to the tapes firsthand and without bias…and definitely using our gray matter to hear in the process).

    the cover-up (or “damage control” to some) in the form of the preemptive bunye tapes are also genuine…i.e., genuine fakes [in fact, in a portion of what is supposed to be a gloria and gary conversation one can hear the voice of garci at the end (3G in the works back in june?) revealing that gary’s voice was dubbed over that of garci].

    the obviously-spliced chavit tapes as well are true-to-form part of gloria’s minions’ “damage control.” they were even played over and over at rj’s AM radio station.

    these are discernments from what i heard and from which i can draw my conclusions on the tapes…very much in contrast to joey’s personal feelings (only) on WHY pimentel was filibustering at the time of the canvass (“…AS IF waiting for…”)…his personal feelings on pimentel’s “homily” or pimentel’s body language, perhaps?

    joey, and you don’t remember being taught that your personal feelings are very important to make conclusions?

  30. Paeng

    Joey,

    hindi ko lang maintindihan kung bakit sobrang bilis mong mag-judge sa mga lumalaban kay Gloria, samantalang kay Gloria, kailangan hindi lang beyond reasonable doubt kundi actual certainty.

    bakit mabilis na nanghusga agad kay Erap dahil sa second envelope (na wala naman palang laman) samantalang yung Garci tape na aided pa by GMA’s actions of covering up right after the expose, napakahirap paniwalaan?

    also the NAMFREL report was there noon pang 2004. gagamitin nga dapat sa electoral protest ni FPJ. kaya nga nagkagalit yung NAMFREL Lanao at yung NAMFREL main kasi yung sa Lanao, gusto niyang ilabas, samantalang itong si Bill Luz, in his then pro-Gloria stance, binalewala lang.

    you are siding with EO 464? e paano kung si GMA naman ang nasa other side? ano kayang isisigaw niyo? kung may EO 464 kaya noong panahon ni Erap, papayag ka?

    natawa ako sa comment mo about “opposition getting its act together” dahil sa ginawa ng admin na endorsement in bad faith ng isang defective impeachment complaint. totoo, tatanga-tanga yung oposisyon at nalamangan sila, pero di ba pag tinimbang na ang kasalanan nung nanlamang at nung naisahan, di ba mas mabigat ang kasalanan nung nanlamang? bakit yung naisahan ang binibigyan mo ng malaking kasalanan? ibig sabihin, approve ka sa ginawa ni Pichay noong 2000 na pag-file ng pre-emptive impeachment complaint laban kay Gloria para maprotektahan ang kanyang bosing nung kainitan ng Erap impeachment? is that a principled stand?

    bakit yung mga politician ang ie-expect mong mamressure ng AFP sa investigation sa wiretapping? di ba dapat yung Malacañang ang dapat name-mressure dahil yung office nila ang na-violate ang privacy? marami namang concerned citizens tulad ko na name-mressure na ilabas na ang results ng imbestigasyon. bakit di tanungin ang Malacañang at ang admin party kung bakit parang wala silang paki? nung impeachment hearing, yung mga admin solons puro “we should find out who wiretapped?!!!” well, where are they now, ngayong “safe” na sila? ikaw, concerned ka pa rin ba kung sino ang nag-wiretap? are you doing something to pressure the government to release the results of the investigation? o wala ka na ring paki kasi safe na si GMA?

    isang taon kamong niluto yung tapes. any proof other than assumptions? you seriously doubt na walang supersplicing technology na nondetectable kahit ng sound experts (kasi sabi ng kinonsulta ng PCIJ na malinis yung tape). any concrete basis for your doubts?

    bakit mas naniniwala ka sa kuwento ni Honesto General, na hindi naman nagbigay ng scientific process kung paano niya na-reach yung conclusions niya, kaysa sa ethnomethodology ni Randy David at yung hard science ng audio experts na kinonsulta ng PCIJ?

    anong opinion mo sa cover-up na ginawa with the Ruado tapes? is that an act befitting the office of the president?

    well, I guess you are holding on to beliefs in a way na parang “faith” na. mahirap nang ma-convince, so agree to disagree na lang. i just you hope don’t live by a double standard. basta ako, nilabanan ko si Erap noon nung nakita kong mali siya. at lalabanan ko rin si GMA ngayon dahil mali rin siya. i just hope you make your judgments out of principles, not out of loyalty to some person you look up to.

  31. cvj

    mlq3, regardless of whatever historically significant events happen down the road, i hope you still find time to continue linking on matters concerning xiaxue. i find their accompanying comments section particularly hilarious

  32. joey legarda

    baycas, baka absent ako, hehehe, joke lang.i remember that we should be like the symbol of justice, impartial.I remember we should be fair.I remember we should not let what we fill to cloud our judgment.i remember we should have an open mind. i remember impatience never makes us the right thing.i remember when you judge anyone better to err on the side of prudence.
    i know that in the real world people will pay attention to you when you can give an argument of complete facts & not dead ends.
    cuz feeling can be very subjective thing.maybe it’s just me.i find more challange in thinking & figuering things out.while it can be true that gut fill can guide us but at the end of the day what we think & beleave must convince the majority in black & white terms.
    i’m sure you have your convictions & i certainly fully respect them.it’s always great to listen to what others have to say.

  33. mlq3

    cjv, will do!

  34. joey legarda

    paeng, don’t get me wrong.i’m not giving judgment.i’m really more of asking questions.there will always be 2 sides to an issue.
    i’m also a nobody so who am i to judge.i’m just sharing my ideas in the arena of ideas & opinions.in the hope that we go beyound popularity or partisanship or what ever.

    if you remember the entire country followed the impeachment super closely.everybody was well informed.for the first time people where really impressed seeing how the system worked.the worst thing that the erap lawyers did & was an insult to the people was the envelop thing.they thought eraps popularity will bring him through.the big difference is everybody was equally informed.that is why things came spontanouly.
    in the garci thing, no matter how explosive it was w/ matching performances of cory & co., nothing caught fire.
    why?
    if really the garci tapes where about pgma cheating in the election.why did it not surface during the counting? that would habe been a 100% kO punch to gma,but it did not happen.why?
    we leave in a world of technology where things are so instant & we had to wait a year.while chavit came out w/ a tape on erap overnight although it was not convincing.kasi pabilisan eh.
    the garci tapes where very well orchestrated too.copies where given to pgma haters.noble made some money out of it.before the tapes came out the senate too was doing it’s “homework” in it’s investigations in aid of whatever & ends uo nowhere!
    it was all a constant bombardment to soften the victim in preparation for the major blow.
    yesterday Jon said it’s relavant what happened before the tapes.
    I think by taking for granted the bigger picture & drowning ourselves in the tapes is a subconcious admiting that we do not want to understand.
    personaly, i beleave that any human being who wants to learn & understand will behave differently from someone who has made up his mind.
    yes i’ siding for 464,w/c does not mean anything cuz it will be the SC that will give the final word anyway.
    yes, because the senate has abused it’s power.
    i see no wisdom in doing “witchuts”.
    i think that we have reach obsessive level of politics.
    our politics has like a basketball game na puro balyahan na lang!
    I like that there be an opposition.but the present opposition is really the worst!They are a small version of what Philippine society is today – kalat, disorganized.Not to mention really incompitent!!!
    They really have no serious argument to make.They opose for the sake of oposing.Merits do not count.It’s about deals.

    My impression is that in a way some people in the military are holding politicians by the balls.that is why they be as arrogant to them as they can be to a gonzales.

    Firstly I’m not a fun of Randy David.I’m not convinced of what he writes.It just so happen that we agree.I also know when a pinoy does something he can really be good at it.tragic lang nga talent is used in kalokohan.But the doctor on audio material can be done.Do you really think we will ever find the raw originals of the tapes?

    Personaly, better then entertaining the cover-up idea.I would gamble w/ the situation now.I think in life we also have to make practical choices.I still take the stand of looking at the bigger picture.Election 2004 for me at list was picking the lesser evil & continuity.Persoanly, I don’t see anything in the horizon.All I see is differfent opposition groups who can’t even agree among themselves.Groups that are ready to exploit the situation and an abundance of hyporits.I know I don’t want a junta or any of the clowns presenting themselves.
    I think that we should stop wishing & dreaming for things that will not happen anyway over-night.But if we put our acts together looking at the bigger picture we have more to gain.
    Erap was popular, but look where he is now.
    PGMA is not popular at all but as a country we are still moving although w/ great difficulty.
    We too have to learn that popularity has nothing to do w/ what is right.I guarantee you a popular person will think first of himself & just leave the hard work for someone else to do.
    I don’t care about convincing anybody, cuz like I said I don’t pretend anything.I’m always ready to listen to new ideas.At the end of the day one does what fulfills & gives results.

  35. Jon Mariano

    “Look at the bigger picture”, “put our acts together”, ” practical choices”, “picking the lesser evil & continuity”, ”we should stop wishing & dreaming for things that will not happen anyway over-night” but “would gamble w/ the situation now”? Whoa, Joey you’re full of contradictions!

    Joey, you may not realize it but your comments paints you as a person who:
    1. Has no clear set of principles of right and wrong, and knowing the truth doesn’t really matter.
    2. Who has a different picture of the “bigger picture”.
    3. Who claims he is willing to listen but dismisses others’ ideas, yet again claims that others are not learning from you (your ideas).
    4. Who has become PGMA’s apologist.

    Of course you see yourself differently, and as I have pointed here at #3, you will again dismiss my observations!

  36. joey legarda

    Jon, no i never dismiss yours or anyones observation.i guess we are really different but for me that is no problem,buti nga so there is variaty in ideas.
    i guess it’s just about having 2 ways of seeing things.
    personaly, i will not tie myself down argueing about what truth or not.like i said i’m not one to impose the tuth i beleave to the others.i think it’s something each one has to find by himself.
    i guess the fact that we are talking to each other is perfect proof that neither of us dismiss each other.just sorry that you get to pissed.
    i’m not a pgma apologist.i’m a realist & practical person.
    i’m more that forever convinced that politics will not bring our country any good.it’s enough to look at your reaction to prove my point.i guess your blood really boils.sorry about that.but still we are first of all civilized people.
    grabe ba my words, buti na lang we are not face to face, at baka ano na nabato mo sa akin,heheh, joke lang, don’t get mad.
    Jon for however you may huff & puff. tell me who do you thing can replace pgma w/c will be the ideal person of your dreams?
    if it’s wrong to look for the lil positive thing & work on them, then i stand corrected.if it’s wrong to not to hate then i stand corrected.is it wrong to make practical choices?

  37. fencesitter

    its only now i noticed some words in my entry are likewise misspelled, like admissibility. It was spelled admissability. sorry for those whose sense of gramatical properiety, i may ahve offended.

    “but in essence no one has better answers to give. If you are not convincing at this level what more in a bigger stage”

    What kind of answer will convince you, joey. It seems that the only line of reasoning acceptable to you is the one that preserves and promote gloria.

    If i may rephrase what baycas said in his entry – only those who may listen to the tape firsthand and without bias can be convinced that the tape is genuine.

    Kung tutuusin ang malacanang ang nagumpisa nito by presenting to all and sundry two kinds of tapes, one is the garci tape, which according to Bunye is fake, and the other one is the Gary tape, which according to Bunye was genuine. Sa punto lang na ito kung wala talagang itinatago ang presidente na scandalo, the acts of Bunye was not necessary. Pwede ko bang sabihin na mas kumbinsido ka sa sinabi ni Bunye na ang Gary tape ang genuine since you don’t seemed to be convinced by the methods of Randy David.

    Ang pag kaka alam ko although the tape may be admissible in court, the president enjoys certain degree of immunity so that the proper recourse is through impeachment. This is the reason why i said in my previous entry that i left the matter to knowledgeable lawyers because i cannot pretend to know the intricacies of the law.

    I think the issue on the legitimacy of the president is not an issue to be left alone to the opposition to resolve. It is the question of whether the people is willing to be governed by a presideent with questionable mandate. One does not need to belong to a political party (opposition)to ask the president’s accountability on the matter.The people must help towards this end. Like Cory and the rest of us here, i cannot accept Glorias tirade that those who question her ligitimacy are part of a grand conspiracy to unseat her. I am an ordinary citizen who take with great interest the issues affecting our lives.

  38. mlq3

    it is wrong to make practical choices, because the choices are not practical, they are plain wrong.

  39. joey legarda

    Manolo, it’s really dificult to judge what is wrong or right.i think each individual makes choices or has to make choices in this imperfect world of things that can also be relative.because i still think that life should move on & not be ditermind by others.i make dicisions according to what i have at hand & what is in my reach.maybe because i’m a realist & practical.is to be a realist wrong?is it wrong to try to make the best of a dificult situation?maybe before we talk about right & wrong.we have so much to do yet & not be just anothe “incompitent” opposition.
    pls. don’t get me wrong,this is just an exchange of ideas.

  40. joey legarda

    is a practical choice to move on wrong? is it wrong if i don’t see anything better in the horizon? is it wrong if i say politics is divisive, because it seems we are in the opposite sides of the fence.
    is wrong or right determind on whoes side is one on.what if i want to gamble on something or someone work hard as compared to an opposition that i can’t make heads or tails of.is that wrong.manolo they are so many things wrong in our society even those opposing can’t be 100% right.

  41. Jon Mariano

    Joey, if you review my comment #36, the 4 points I raised were objective observations on how “I” see your comments. I’m not angry nor have my blood boil in anger.

    We have already settled that we have differing opinions in many issues. We just don’t see things the same way (point #2 – you have a different “bigger picture”)

    To many of us who have joined in this discussion and other threads in this blog, allowing Gloria to continue holding on to power without answering the accusations/charges is just plain wrong(that’s said the nicest way I could). To you it’s the practical choice (point #1. No clear set of principles of right and wrong).

    An apologist is defined as a person who argues to defend or justify some policy or institution. (point #4 – you argue to justify Gloria’s stay in power as the “lesser evil”, or the practical choice.

    Regarding my comment #36, I rest my case!

  42. baycas

    while it is true that we are now living in a “counterfeit reality” wherein a mere photograph can be altered, a video can be doctored, or a voice recording can be manipulated, we’re still missing a point here.

    the voices heard in congress last year and in the senate yesterday as the tapes/cd’s in question are being played are telling us that truly there is a “big brother” out there. he pries on the “innocent” politically-engaged individuals on either camps involved in the 2004 election. never mind if the conversations did not take place, what’s important is that there are lots of voices archived somewhere and are now in the open (a computer can lie but a voice recorder cannot lie). this is what’s missing…the point is that the rule of law is breached by this wiretapping exposé.

    as to why the cha-cha-preoccupied government is not keen on getting to the bottom of this wiretapping thing leaves one to think that the government actually did the “interceptions.” the government is the only one capable of doing it says one senate witness.

    just a speculation? yes, this may be true (like our counterfeit reality) but i have my own “practical” choice of embracing the truth…events, facts, opinions, perceptions/personal feelings do not point to a “big brother”…they all point to a “small sister!”

    —–

    (i posted this yesterday but didn’t come out)

    well said, joey. let us not cloud our judgment by our emotions and biases (…but we’re just human). i just happened to swing by mlq’s blog and you stimulated my fancy. my personal feelings got the better of me. i wasn’t putting you down on your spelling, i only regarded you as an “intelligent guy playing dumb”…although our convictions are at opposite ends i respect yours likewise…

  43. joey legarda

    Jon, in fairness, i would try to explain myself better.
    When I mention the big picture.I mean we should factor in everything.Firstly,there is always a consequence to every action.Any leader, regardless that it be a GMA when is overthrown for the most varied reason will have it’s consequences.Question is, are we ready to leave w/ whatever they may be.
    Today we are leaveing w/ some many problems of wrong moves that where done in the past.We are leaveing in a sea of consequences of so many mistakes because of wanting short term gains.
    I always talk of the bigger picture.The latest survey explain things.A big number will follow you or join rallies “if the charges can be proven”.
    The bigger picture are those who wanna hava a life.Those that woon’t gamble on what is incertain.Those who would prefer to work.those who have responsibilities.
    The bigger picture is looking at long term gains & not just short term need of the moment.
    The big picture is knowing that there is a country called the Philippines that comes first and not the interest of a few.
    It’s sad to be labeled “apoligist” when all I’m trying to explain in my limited way is to have a bigger view of our problems & considerations of practical things in our lives.
    idealissims, wishies & dreams are not bad.But in the same breath they have to be balaceded w/ what the realities are.

    In reality, what are you really holding on too?Pioson illegal tapes that where exposed in exhange for money to partisan people.Will we ever find the raw original? No.But who knows,if the prices is right.The truth can be bought!
    Don’t get me wrong but the chances of fooling a good person are higher then then fooling a person who is not just good but has a critical mind & never stops asking questions so as to understand better.

    The big picture is about an entire nation who has so many people who have less in life.What about them?will dirty politics give them a better chance?

    Did it ever happen anyone of us condemming those who commited the illegal act of wire tapping.Insted, it is made a rallying point to bring down an administration.

    Did it ever occur to you that by doing those tapes in an illegal way certaily the evil characters behind it wanted to ruin every instititution they can in a democratic Nation.
    They certainly had no intensions of helping us solve our problems.They just want to add to our problems & exhaust us & play w/ our feelings.And no one has ever condemend them to burn in hell.
    It’s really perplexing that people who say they want new things & so on are not even presenting new ways of reasoning.Insted are stuck in squeezing every drop of blood from a created issue forgeting other things that make up a nation.
    I may not be perfect but I try to be as responsible as I can be w/ my fellow men.
    I hope you dont get me wrong.But if you where a salesman trying ti sell ideas or what ever,you really have more work to do.
    I don’t mean to offend anybody.It’s just a stright forward thing.

  44. joey legarda

    baycas, no big deal man. likewise…

  45. Jon Mariano

    Joey, you don’t have to have a business card with “apologist” as the title to be an apologist. You have to understand that when you say “I’m trying to explain in my limited way is to have a bigger view of our problems & considerations of practical things in our lives” and you put across your ideas, you’re coming out as an apologist for Gloria. You don’t mean it, and you don’t want to be called one, but in many us of here in this blog, your reasoning makes you one.

    It’s like a mother who says “I’m not a whore, but I have to have money to support my family”. And then she goes on to sell her flesh. In this illustration, the mother becomes an apologist for “it’s okay to sell your body to stay alive and support for the family”.

    So in your case, it’s “It’s okay for Gloria to continue whatever it is she’s doing so that she can work to improve the Philippines. Forget about all the charges.”. If you say it’s not being an apologist, what is?

    As for your “bigger picture”, it looks quite blurry…You need to work on it and make it clearer.

    As for me, my stand is quite simple:
    1. Let Gloria answer the charges. If she’s clean, then she stays. If proven that she’s dirty, she should go to jail if warranted.
    2. I would like Bayani Fernando to be president if Gloria goes. I like him because he makes things done. But if proven that he’s a scoundrel, he should go to jail too! In essence, I would like to have a leader who’s clean.

  46. Ashley tisdale

    Hei! luogo che interessante avete fatto, ben cotto!

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